The ONLY time we see Steam creatures anywhere near Brisban is when tied to the Thaumanova explosion which teleports anything randomly, or in the personal story Split Second.
That’s not true. They also appear in Tekki’s gate.
Not to mention that at the time, steam creatures weren’t even invented in our world according to the future PC, when S2 claims that Scarlet invented them several years before the PS. Now the future world dominator could be lying… but why would he/she?
I am saying that the timelines changes after our interference in the PC. It would of retroactively changed not only our future bu the past aswell. That is to say that is was our timeline at all, as Angel even stated, it was a possible future. I agree with her, I don’t see the contradiction.
Even excluding that part, the whole thing of Scarlet building them as revealed in Prosperity’s Mystery is that Scarlet used dredge materials, however the Order of Whispers and Priory agents in the area explicitly state that the materials and engravings are a complete mystery.
The earlier steam creatures started out from dredge metals, but we know that they soon become self-replicating and improved themselves. They built upon the prior, possibly finding better alloys. After all, we know that the steam creatures in lornar’s is partially made with bones.
With the arguments you brought up, I don’t see the contradiction, especially when there are other legitimate retcons.
True, I only showed what in-game scholars thought. But I do not even agree that it was a retcon from the personal story. The future is not so linear, and even after the Split Second instance, timelines could have changed. When it comes to future/timelines/time mumbo-jumbo, I’m not too quick to call retcon (though other Scarlet-related things are definitely retcons)
What technology was directly attributed to her was a blatant retcon (Steam creatures) which don’t even match her designs and MO (organic cores in robotic bodies!).
Just because you say it is a retcon, does not mean it should be dismissed. Even the steam creatures, one scholar suspects she reverse-engineered found ones.
Explorer Geargrind: (snort) More likely she disassembled some of those things and did some reverse-engineering to learn how to control them.
Beyond that there are at most 5ish instances of extreme emotion cited. Which means either the general populace is extremely aloof or for the most part we are shown only the happy people.
You seem to look at lore differently than I do. I assume, you see these examples as the only instances. If I gave 5, then there must be 5. But I view them as what could happen.
Look at it this way from an asura named Budge: “My partner and I are pondering what to name our newborn progeny. We’re calculating all possible numerological and geometric combinations for optimal success.”
Now, knowing what we know about Asura, would this type of naming be a one-off case, or is it something that occurs throughout their society. Maybe not always, and maybe not even the most common, but it is there.
So, the same applies to the examples. If one norn can get depressed from an injury then why can’t others? If one asura develops anxiety because of the Dragons, then why can’t others?
Many things can cause someone to commit suicide. Depression, paranoia, and claustrophobia are all recognized causes of suicide.
Gurtt: Can’t work on projects for weeks, hardly leaves homes, socialising is extremely difficult. Can’t think of anymore other than the dragons. Becomes more afraid every day. Definitely sounds like depression and anxiety.
Dearthair: Compulsive patrol for dragons every day. Has given up hope of a good outcome. Finds it pointless to resist. Will only fight so she may die with honor. Sounds like depression to me.
Bann: Norn who was injured in a hunt. Cannot be healed. Cannot hunt anymore. Now feels useless. Feels like he is less than he was before. Sounds like insecurities that can cause depression.
Then there are smaller things:
1. Peacemaker Officer: No, for more Peacemakers. This imbalance in power terrifies me.
2. Prospector: I don’t [like Hoelbrak]. The buildings block the wind. I feel like a caged animal.
3. Crusader Deborah: This endless wasteland is starting to get to me. Half the time I can’t sleep, the other half…I don’t want to wake up.
Also, I don’t think you can reasonably say that fear of race-ending Dragons is just disenchantment.
(Which reminds me: it’ll be interesting to see how the Exalted respond to charr. Forgotten have been enemies of the charr just as humans have, so unless Glint predicted that change (which is certainly possible), Exalted that were once humans may still respond poorly to charr.)
I was wondering about this too. It is something I’m going to look out for. As per the blog “Exalted retain their names, personalities, and memories of the past”. But the question is, how did these humans feel about charr? Was there any human communities (maybe isolated ones) that did not feel hatred towards charr?
I am really curious about the who the Exalted were before their trails.
Obviously the Scroll of the Five True Gods was thought of by the writers long after the Rubicon and Stelae. But, I don’t like meta-theorizing (speculating on why writers wrote something).
My best guess, is that the Scroll of the Five True Gods was a relatively recent discovery, which may have excited scholars or began to have more promise than the other tomes. Another point, The Scroll presumably shows a different perspective of the Dragons, since the Rubicon and Stelae were from creatures of the previous Rise.
It is also good to point out that the Tome of Rubicon has been rewritten over the years and political reasons.
“It’s a valid point though, depression in Tyria seems to be unheard of,”
This is not true. What is true, is that it is not the main focal point of any story, but it is there through ambient dialogue and NPC conversations. In every one of the major cities, you can speak to people on how the Dragons and other threats affected their lives. Asura that cannot experiment anymore for they feel it is all futile. Peacemakers living in paranoia and anxiety of another Golem Uprising. Norn who develop extreme claustrophobia. Sylvari who watch the Sea of Sorrows for Zhaitan to an obsessive degree.
You never go on a quest to save someone from these things, but they are there.
Really? There’s not enough mystery and unknown in the Guild Wars franchise? I heard some really weird comments on the lore, but that is just baffling.
Not as baffling as the nonsense they wrote for The Exalted lore, the writers kids making this stuff these days?
Yes, I’m sure that’s what happening. /s
I think the Mursaat should be kept mostly in the past. That doesn’t mean they would never appear, but they should, imo, appear in the same manner like Caithe’s Seeds: a flashback that brings new light.
I don’t think the Exalted are directly druids but allied with the druids. From this excerpt, "The Exalted discovered the jungle was even more dangerous than they remembered and that allies they had made among Maguuma’s residents were missing, perhaps gone forever. "
This tells me they presumably allied with the druids.
I mean most lore is from manuals, short stories written by the writers or blog posts rather than the actual games, If we ignore those then the gw universe has pretty much no lore.
This is the stupidest and most exaggerated thing I’ve heard on these forums. I’ve been cataloging the lore for about a year now, from ambient dialogue, Npc conversations, and event dialogue, and this statement is not true.
Almost every piece of lore giving in blog posts and out of the game, has been told in the game one way or another. The difference is that blog posts are more approachable to most that can’t be bothered talking to npcs and listening around them, if it doesn’t give them a shiny new item or achievement.
THEN, not to mention that there are so many things talked about in game that are never given outside of the game. Charr theory of used electricity as a power source? only in game. Meta-Rivulets? in game. Centaur speeches before a battle? in game. Customs of informing of the death of a norn? in game. Norn mourning ballads? in game. Printing Presses? in game. Myth of a three-tailed devourer? in game.
The main thing that people come up with this statement, is some think the above lore does not matter. Dragons, Mursaat, Forgotten, Six Gods. They matter and without that they “then the gw universe has pretty much no lore.” as you put it. It is just false. Without my above examples the world would feel flat. Who cares about world ending dragons without lore that tells us how the races anxiety and stress are effected.
Yeah, Sindex, you’re putting words into Konig’s mouth. As we all know, konig is one of the first people to criticize lore when appropriate. Plus, all Konig did was say you misused terms that quite frankly, people only seem to get from tvtropes.com. Come on, Konig even gives you examples of where in the lore those terms would apply!
And as mara pointed out, there eerily resemble Enchanted Armor.
And people told me they didn’t.
Yeah, I remember that. People tend to try to warp lore to fit into what they want to see. They wanted mursaat, so they saw mursaat.
-snip-
Maybe the Forgotten had a reason not to choose the dwarves or themselves. I think you’re assumptions without knowing their reasoning.
Then again I’m looking at it from an in-universe perspective, and you seem to be looking at it from a real-world-writers perspective, asking why not use the characters already developed. Correct me if I’m wrong.
But that is how stories develop. No writer ever has every detail mapped out from the beginning. I have no doubt, this was not intended when that manuscript was written. But that is literally the method. The writers look back what they have given, find holes, and expand on them.
Tell me one thing added later that you cannot describe as sloppily added? Abaddon? Elder Dragons? Foefire?
Largely. There’s a difference between largely uninhabited and completely uninhabited. How many is ‘largely’ 90% 95% 99%? How many humans is 1%?
EDIT: Also, you say it is a lore mess, then follow it with as far as we know. Isn’t it logical that this information would be beyond the scope of your as far as we know?
(edited by Plagiarised.2865)
I don’t know what that sounds like to you, but to me it doesn’t sound like it’s supposed to be restricted to some unimportant, completely random group of humans that at some point met the Forgotten while travelling through the desert.
Why wouldnt it. The crystal desert is one of the most hostile places in all of Tyria. Why wouldn’t the Forgotten use that as a basis?
Turai Ossa wasn’t even aware of what the Forgotten were when he and his followers stumbled across them.
But that’s not the point. If Turai Ossa was able to go into the desert and meet the Forgotten, why couldn’t others. Why couldn’t other humans that the Forgotten chose to take the trail?
I wasn’t until the events of Prophecies that human civilization ran into them again (not counting Turai Ossa a few centuries before).
I don’t remember this line about human civilization. Do you have a source? Also, you believe Turai Ossa and his followers, but can’t believe that any others might have gone after. None at all?
And as mara pointed out, there eerily resemble Enchanted Armor.
Really? There’s not enough mystery and unknown in the Guild Wars franchise? I heard some really weird comments on the lore, but that is just baffling.
Some people assume that stars are mutually exclusive of the elements on Tyria. In tyria we have fire, water, ether etc. then there are stars. That stars are just another element. This is not true. What I am trying to say is that the elements that make up Tyria make up the stars and the celestial. So I don’t understand why it is far fetched. It may require more power or training or experience, but not just possible, but in my opinion expected.
Why wound’t it be celestial? Tyria is a planet is it not? It has a sky and stars, does it not?
If they had not had time to get developed to human culture, why do they use the same rangers skills as humans?
I think this is obviously only mechanics and not lore. I mean, my thief doesn’t really pounce at the enemy from 10 meters away five times in a row.
I agree wholeheartedly with Konig. When it comes to profession lore, I think the druid seems the most interesting to me.
In many cultures nature and space are entwined. Nature is defined as the phenomena of the physical world collectively. Collectively. D&D, LOTR and fantasy that followed, bent this to mean grass, plants, and animals. But there is much more to nature. The way the world moves around the sun is nature; the theories of the All is nature. It is just modern fantasy has become so saturated with the Drizzt/Legolass, that it is all people think of when they hear ranger/nature.
And quite frankly, its more interesting then ‘traditional’ rangers. Celestial lore is something that is lacking in lore, and this is great.
Remember the Elder Dragons are the oldest known race in existence. They’re playing the long game, here. Also, Zhaitan attacked Claw Island more than a century after it awoke.
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I think this is simply just a case of suspension of disbelief, to be honest. Revenant Magic would probably become common during late 1328 AE. It wouldn’t exist before then. That part, I see, as only mechanics. Just like I don’t believe bandit champions are the size of norn, or pistols have unlimited ammo.
Heavy roleplayers would simply not play a revenant if they set their game before 1328 AE, or come up with a Mist-Time reason (which is possible). It’s not really that big of a deal.
As for channeling living legends if that was true why isn’t there a legend from the present (or the future) available to channel? Why only dead legends (aside from the uncertain Jalis)
That’s simple. Fan service. Get a reaction from Gw1 veterans or add something no one knows.
Plus, why would Odgen tell you directly about Jalis, the king, to some non-dwarf from the surface?
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Two things
1. We do not know if Jalis is still alive.
2. And more importantly, the Mists constitutes the proto-matter of reality. It has everything that is, was or ever will be: the past, present, AND the future. Why couldn’t someone channel the energy of someone from the future, or in this case the present?
I haven’t read the whole thread, but since it was not brought up, in-game an asura states (albeit in a round about way) that steam technology is superior to the crystals that asura use today.
Zegg: And imagine if we could harness steam! Control crystals would become obsolete.
As Aaron said, the quote does not mean they have to OWN the land, but be a respected person from that land. Considering, most of Ascalon is owned by the Charr now, and the other few are in Ebonhawke, the only Ascalonian ministers would be far between -most likely Old Ascalon Settlement, and Rurikton.
It also gets a bit more impossible when you learn that the Six aren’t native to Tyria
Also it gets even more complicated when you take into account that some of the Six today, weren’t the same gods in the last dragon rise. And EVEN more complicated when you know that the domains switch around when the gods do.
The Six most likely have SOME relation, like they met them, or knew them, or studied them, but are them? Not likely.
This does sound interesting. Any screenshots you can provide?
I think she was rather testing to figure out response times, and what sort of defenses might get deployed swiftly to try to thwart her invasion. Afterwards, she could take the data of those defenses and work on a countermeasure.
Looking back at the dialogue, this makes more sense than what I thought previously.
I don’t think it was the weapon being tested, but the defenses, much as Konig’s piece of dialogue implies.
Exactly. It was the Breachmaker she was testing, not the Marionette. The Breachmaker was her defense.
The reason for the marionette is one part diversion, and one part testing. Scarlet needed a way to distract the world orders as she prepared the Breachmaker. She knew she would attract resistance when she will drill for the ley line (no matter where it would have been, seen she did not know it would be in Lion’s Arch). So she created an assault in the Shiverpeaks to distract and keep the orders busy. This was optimal, in my opinion, why Scarlet’s attack on Lion’s Arch was so devastating.
The second part is testing. Not the marionette, but the Breachmaker. If you looked carefully, you would not that the Marionette always appears from the Breachmaker. Scarlet needed to test out her airship in battle condition to see how it would fare against the might of the three great orders.
So why was it created in the shape of the puppet? Moral deterioration. After her bombing of Divinity’s Reach and her subsequent hijacking of the Jennah’s machine, Scarlet needed away to play with her enemies’ emotion, so she affected they morals by creating a mockery of her past events. This type of physiological warfare would not be the first time we see it from Scarlet. We see it occur all over the Tower of Nightmare, and even in our first confrontation with her in the Pavilion.
The marionette was never going to be used again, seen as how she left its remains in the mountains, for any asura to learn how it works. It would have been easier to posthumously learn of a counter to the puppet. So it is logical that it was never meant to be used again.
I understand that it might be an oversight, but I specifically asked to discuss the notion that it isn’t. Please read the bold text.
Ninety years of age is considered an elderly for charr.
Source: Tygor Mindflayer
Please note: That this could most definitely be just an oversight, but it is always more interesting to speculate regardless. Please keep all sarcastic, joking, or resentful responses away from this thread. You have the rest of the forums for that.
Throughout my adventures, I noticed that one particular Chief is named the same as the grounds that the hylek occupies. Chiefs are leaders of a tribe that hold authority, but how do the names of the grounds come to be?
This is the only tribe I know of in the game that has a chieftain with the same name as the tribe. So why not the others? The other tribes do not have this similarity. This has me believe that all hylek tribes were, at one point, named after someone. Most of the chieftains we know of have similar names to their corresponding tribes.
This would mean that as hylek tribes gain a new chief, they would keep the name of the original chieftain. So the Eztlitl tribe is a newly formed tribe who banded together behind Chieft Eztlitl.
He’s from the part of the mists where all the other dumb gem store items come from. This shadowy land is called “Anet’s Greed” and can be accessed by sacrificing your first month’s paycheck to the Gem Store god.
HurHurHur. Classic gw2 joke. The forums being funny again. /s
As for a serious answer, since that is what I assume OP was asking for, I would go for Krytan. Kryta had a lot of ports, especially before Lion’s Arch became a city-state.
I am looking for people that are interested in talking about the more obscure lore that surrounds the universe i.e. Norn mourning ballad, Charr discovering mercury.
I want to find people that I can talk to about the story, without being told how I am stupid for liking the lore.
If you’ve been taking lore seriously up till this point then you must have been using some amazing mental gymnastics since they have been making bad lore/changing decent lore ever since guild wars 2 was conceived at anet.
I love almost all of Guild Wars 2 lore, but of course, I have to be using mental gymnastics because how can someone even conceive of a differing opinion. I just that carrraaazy.
Truly though, she’s still a child who certainly shows potential. Give her time to grow up before making too much of a comparison to an oldy.
Oh, I agree. Given time, she may become up there with Snaff or Kerrsh, but to say that she is making all other asura look dumb is false.
To elaborate, her intelligence is often attributed to four key factors, that are:
1. Knowledge of Ley Lines
2. Knowledge of Engineering
3. ‘Futuristic’ Golem
4. Creation of the W.R.D.
1. Knowledge of Ley Lines: This one is two fold. The information she says during the early episodes, such as the leading theories and definition of ley lines, is all common knowledge to asura. We are told specifically that almost all asura know basic understanding of the ley lines. When Taimi speaks of the ley lines during these early episodes, she is not bringing anything new; she is repeating what scholars before her have said.
Then later on, Taimi becomes more knowledgeable about the subject. So why her? Well, you must first understand that she is not the first to study ley lines. Omadd, Ceara, and supposedly others before her have tried. The new information that Taimi gets about ley lines, and this is important, is based on other people’s research, mainly Omadd and Ceara. She took Scarlet’s notes and Omadd’s machines and studied them. She ‘reverse engineered’ knowledge if you will.
2. Knowledge of Engineering: She is a golemancer and an engineer. She is often noted to say very technical descriptions and understanding of golems. For example, she understood things about the steam creatures. This doesn’t make her unique, however, for if you play an engineer, you yourself notice the same things Taimi does. She is part of the College of Synergetics, so she would have some understanding. But she is not a master, and there are proven of some that are better than her by miles. After all, she sought out Brun Ingotspitter so she can learn more.
3. “Futuristic” Golem: Her unusual golem design is often noted by players to be more ‘high tech’ which gave the impression that her golem is better than everyone elses. How can a child have a better design than, say the Peacemakers. But this is actually the opposite. Scruffy is actually an older design. This is noted in two areas: when speaking with Taimi she boasts that her golem was built all by herself, which is fine for a student of Synergetics, but then she says its made of all classical vintage parts. That is why her golems looks odd. It isnt a newer design but an older design. After all, we mainly only see what golems looked like after Snaff’s evolution.
While on the topic of Snaff, he revolutionized the field. Before him, joysticks and directional pads were used, but now piloting a golem is as easy as thinking. But, interestingly, when you look into Scruffy, he is piloted clearly with joysticks and buttons. An indication that Scruffy is an older design. It would also explain why Taimi would always quip about upgrading it, because she needs to.
4. Creation of the W.R.D: This is what gets most people. How can a child create a device to stop an Elder Dragon. Simply put, she had the tools, mainly Omadd’s machine. Remember she used the machine to tap into the network and that is how she created the W.R.D. Was it smart? Yes. Does it put all other asura to shame? Probably not.
So, yeah Taimi is smart. She may even be above average, and given time could become one of the great minds of this age, but she has a long way to go before she makes all asura look dumb.
Taimi is definitely not smarter than Snaff. The reason she seems to be smarter than other asura is because of how you interact with her. We spend time with her that we don’t with most other asura. But if you look at the things she says, it is nothing special that almost every other asura would know. The things she creates is simplistic that any asura can create them (The waypoint device was created by her because she had access to Omadd’s Machine for the longest).
To get a judge of her intelligence, you should look at how she is talked to in asura society. She is talked down, seen as just a child while Snaff was revered by many, he was going to be on the Council, and had a whole event and location named after him, as well as revolutionized golemancy. Taimi has done no such thing.
There is nothing unnatural about gay relationships. Also it is found in sylvari, asura, and human races up to date. Gay relationships was also not ‘popularized’ with Rift. A quick google search gave a long list of characters WAY before Rift. And lastly, this doesn’t belong in the lore forums.
I mean before they awoke, why didn’t Glint gather champions to penetrate Kralkatorrik’s chest with that spear when he was asleep?
Don’t quote me, but I believe in the novel, Glint stated the spear had to strike his belly. But I’m not 100% sure…
EDIT: I found the quote, ““You must strike the killing blow, right here.” Glint motioned to her side, tapping a groove between her ribs.”
So just dig a tunnel under its belly and stab it.
I though so too, but Glint continues, “You must be running when you deliver the stroke, with all your weight behind the lance. Can you do that?”
The spear had to have a great force behind it, and well, you can’t really do that while digging upwards.
I mean before they awoke, why didn’t Glint gather champions to penetrate Kralkatorrik’s chest with that spear when he was asleep?
Don’t quote me, but I believe in the novel, Glint stated the spear had to strike his belly. But I’m not 100% sure…
EDIT: I found the quote, ““You must strike the killing blow, right here.” Glint motioned to her side, tapping a groove between her ribs.”
(edited by Plagiarised.2865)
I can understand people taking information from interviews, or red posts from the writing team, but from Colin in a press release seems to be stretching it. All I’m saying, is if Kuunavang appears later on as an ally, please do not use this as proof of a retcon.