Guild Wars 2

Get this popup, on “OK” nothing happens, have to tab out and use Task manager to close.

Support link is 404

This has happened about once an hour (sometimes after half an hour) since the morning of 8/20, repeatedly. My connection is fine, and ran GW2 with no problems uninterrupted over the past couple of days—this just started yesterday and has persisted since.

Ele
IMO, diamond skin is fine, it’s the sustain from other sources that makes the class unreasonable. It’s impossible to get/keep the ele below 90% due to the constant protection uptime (which is 20% more effective, plus the -10% dmg from frost aura, making burst impossible), heal spam, and condi cleanse. The real culprit here is the “aura,” and the number of easy, powerful synergies which can apply to it.

Elemental shielding should have its own damage mitigation buff of at most 20% (more reasonably 10 or 15). Keep in mind bastion still gives frost aura, another -10%, and I think the regen of torrents should be moved to bastion, eliminating the spammable heal entirely.

Having a trait with both an ICD and a no-ICD for two different simultaneous benefits is counter intuitive. Vigor on its own is plenty powerful, especially since it provides extra endurance with latent stamina, allowing for more frequent dodges (damage mitigation). Adding a damage mitigation buff on dodge for hardy conduit (non-stacking duration) would foster more active play.

Of course, an alternative is to remove the auras from shouts and replace them with another mechanic.

Scrap
I main Scrapper, and will tell you that it is OP, but healing turret isn’t really the problem. It’s very easy to interrupt, and with all the CC flying around I find most often my enemies probably don’t even realize they’ve interrupted it. Considering the actual heal you want is its active, with a water field that you can blast, and not the initial heal, the results are already delayed beyond the tooltip. Sneak gyro really isn’t that great either (although a longer cooldown is completely reasonable). Mortar has much more utility.

What needs a nerf is slick shoes, which puts down absolutely crazy CC, and hammer itself (either damage nerf, or its reflect/block durations need to be shortened/cooldowns increased, or both. also, thunderclap should be a light field, not a lightning field, as the instant, ranged stun is already powerful enough, following it up with three immediate dazes from the successive leaps is a bit much).

Also, rapid regeneration is a little silly. It should either give a one-time heal on application with an ICD, or a different effect (vigor? endurance maybe? idunno)

Chrono
Probably.

DH
Traps need to go on CD when they are triggered (if this is already the case then it must be bugged, because I’ve fought DH who have chained the same traps back to back as if it wasn’t), and need a major damage nerf. Compare DH traps to every other class’s trap in the game and they are on a completely different playing field. No “skill” which requires so little should be rewarded with so much damage. They also need much more dramatic visual cues (often they are literally invisible) and either the daze on trigger trait needs to go, or VoJ active does. Fighting two DH after using all your dodges on traps is like being a pinball until you die.

LB#2 also needs either a damage nerf, or a CD increase.

Herald
CD increase is reasonable, but the 7th strike doesn’t make that much of a difference. I think it just needs a faster cast time, so that a single dodge will negate much more potential damage (like the change to ranger’s LB rapid fire).

Reaper
Yeah.

Druid
The 1s daze on swap isn’t a big issue.. a bigger one is the 2s daze on kitten cooldown with lunar impact. That needs to be removed entirely unless the CD of the skill is increased. It could possibly be moved to Natural Convergence which has a 10sec CD but a 2.5sec cast time.

DD
Impact strike needs the daze and launch removed. It’s a little much when it can already basically insta-kill you when downed, it needs at least a teeny chance for counter-play.

Leohart.4610:

Images

Those look suspicious to me. I don’t think they’re actually from GW2.

They look too realistic, like some kind of Call of Warfare, or Modern Duty game. Can anyone else confirm?

You guys just QQ you cry NERF WARRIOR but u dont even know its just L2P

Warrior has SO MANY COUNTERS

HB doesn’t needs nerfed first of all is a channeled skill all you have to do is CHANGE CHANNEL and HB wont hit u will have kitten videos or something.

earthshaker DUH you use the counter of trying idunno EARTHQUAKE-PROOF YOUR HOUSE its standard building practice if you do its hard counte only oes like .0005% damage then

mesmer portals you duh need to HARD CODE YOUR PORTALS or anyone can use them thats just common sense lol

tl;dr
you are all morons warrior is just right don’t need nerfed

Berry Pun Pup.6904:

Also:

http://www.theguardian.com/books/booksblog/2011/aug/17/spoilers-enhance-enjoyment-psychologists

The caveat being this is mostly true for good media, so Star Wars might not follow this trend.

Fair warning, posted that earlier and it was deleted for “derailing the thread.”

As for

Gaab.4257:

This has nothing to do with spoilers.

Nothing personal, but I find it hard to feel guilty if you took that post literally.

Kross.6428:

Pandaman.4758:

Gaile is simply saying you can report abusive behavior, and ruining other people’s fun is abusive.

But where do we draw the line then? That’s the problem with this supposed policy. It cannot be enforced at this moment because there are no rules against it. Sure, people can quote the User Agreement, but what sort of “laws” are going to be written down? Gaile has responded, so this issue is now something that ANet has to spend time and resources looking into.

But here’s the thing that bothers me so much… why is this issue getting more attention than worse problems in the game?

In Orr, players are constantly begging for temple events to fail (because it is required for certain achievements), yet other players will complete the event despite their pleas in map chat. Their progress has just been barred by another player, yet this is not a report-able offense. Perhaps just poor game design… Regardless, is this abusive? Is this ban-able? Someone just had their fun ruined, so why not?

When running dungeons, players will discriminate, ridicule and kick others for not having the preferred gear. Or in even worse cases, people leading the dungeons have been kicked by other members of their group at the very end, so that their friends could finish the dungeon with them and reap the rewards. From my observations, players guilty of the latter issue do not get banned, despite the blatant grief it causes towards others. Is this abusive? Is this ban-able? Someone just had their fun ruined, so why not?

During the horrendous WvW Golem Rush event, players were purposely exploiting the bugs to one-shot-kill other players. This was clearly an exploit of the game, and legitimate players had to suffer the consequences. They were either forced to deal with it, or take a break until the event was over. Nothing was done on the devs side to solve this issue. It was swept under the rug after the event concluded. Was this abusive? Was this ban-able? Someone just had their fun ruined, so why not?

This game promotes so much “fun ruining” by design and yet these are not ban-able offenses despite the numerous complaints over the years. The inaction and silence of the devs seems to suggest that this sort of behavior is acceptable. Why is example one not considered griefing? Why does example two go unpunished despite how common it is? Why did example three not get any attention from the devs, despite causing problems for a sizable portion of the playerbase?

So again, my question is: Why does this topic get special snowflake status when there are far worse issues for the devs to be looking into within their very own game?

(Note: This isn’t an attack towards you Pandaman. Merely what you said got me thinking about how we define the boundaries between other people’s fun, and why spoiling movies is getting more attention from the devs than other rampant in-game problems that are a result of their own design.)

/Thread

The presents spawn in different patterns. As there’s a campfire there to keep you from dying, take the time to watch them while also catching your breath.

The one arrangement you want to watch for is when they spawn in a checkerboard pattern, with the present closest to you spawning last. That seems to be the safest one to use for going straight up the middle, but you must anticipate the spawn of that closest-present and jump to it as soon as it appears. Then hop straight up to the giant peppermint, watch for the gust of wind from the snowman, etc.

Goldberg.4831:

The context doesn’t matter

Oy, vey.

…This thread is becoming one of the most bizarre experiences of my entire life.

Kross.6428:

Over the years, I’ve observed far worse behavior go unpunished… including verbal abuse, griefing, bug exploitation, spamming, et cetera. The players that I reported never got banned. Furthermore, there isn’t even an option for specifically reporting “hacking” or “exploit abuse” under the report menu despite how important those issues are. Don’t tell me that “movie spoilers” is going to be added to the list…

No, you’re completely wrong. While well-known PvP ESL proleague pros willfully and openly violate Rule #22 on the GW2 Rules of Conduct, that’s nothing compared to the threat of having my non-GW2 content spoiled although it’s not “technically” against any rules. I’m glad that this issue, before so many other far less significant ones, merited a prompt official response.

Gaab.4257:

Wow. I don’t like spoilers either but I don’t see any particular reason that BY ITSELF ALONE it would be something to report in a game. Can anyone please point out for me the relevant text in the game’s license that forbids it?

https://www.guildwars2.com/en-gb/legal/guild-wars-2-rules-of-conduct/

#17:

You will not exploit any bug in Guild Wars 2 and you will not communicate the existence of any such exploitable bug (bugs that grant the user unnatural or unintended benefits) either directly or through public posting, to any other user of Guild Wars 2.

GW2’s lack of an automated spoiler-warning censor bar over any content with the trigger words, “Star Wars,” “Force Awakens,” “Han Solo,” “Kylo Ren,” “Space battle,” “Chewbacca on harpsichord,” or “Luke Skywalker’s missing pants,” is an exploitable bug which players are abusing in mapchat.

Clearly.

Ithilwen.1529:

Obvious troll

Manimarco Devil.1790:

Also mesmers have in no way shape or form dropped from the meta lmao.

Double bunk mes is still meta??

And we’ve gone from 1 precog skill to now talking about 2 mesmers stacking everything specifically to keep lord alive. So compare this to two eles or two druids doing the same thing (and you want to talk about poison and boon strip, things few classes have access to? let’s talk about cleanse and spammable auras).

Judging the skill by its effect when stacked is more of an indictment against class stacking than the skill itself. Two DH could just wait out the rotation (or interrupt lol), then spam all their traps and insta-kill the lord. Mes bunks are pretty easy to avoid damage from, unlike say, revenant or scrapper, and while stacking precog wells, F5/alacrity etc will certainly give them an edge, it’s only that.

Take away precog and what do mesmers offer, at all? An elite that knocks-in and holds? DH has that. Chilling, slowing, etc? No monopoly on those.

They may have a reset, but reset is basically the new meta, shared across rev, ele, reaper, scrapper. All that’s left is alacrity, which is useful only under very specific conditions when an entire group is together, mostly in the form of PvE.

Everyone was clamoring for precog to no longer contribute to point cap. Well, it no longer contributes to point cap. And on top of that, shield got nerfed too! Now, you want more nerfs, when other classes have unlimited uptime on crazy sustain?

Please.

(BTW, I main Scrapper, which is OP)

Manimarco Devil.1790:

It is amazing the lack of brainpower used in this thread when the OP is talking about well of precog being used to keep the Lord invulnerable and yet people are just justifying that by saying mesmers have already been nerfed.

Soa Cirri.6012:

Seyiwaji.4082:

Chronomancer are a big problem

They already got nerfed into the ground.

Blatantly false as mesmers still exist in all forms of play. They got nerfed slightly and mesmers act like their class got deleted.

What about druids nuke healing the lord to full, or eles spamming heals and protection on the lord as well as auras with both offensive and defensive utility?

Mesmers dropped from the meta, that’s evidence enough. If you wanna talk about lord def, there’s more than just mesmers to look at, and it’s a bit disingenuous to single them out for a skill that lasts all of three seconds.

Seyiwaji.4082:

Chronomancer are a big problem

They already got nerfed into the ground.

Yelloweyedemon.2860:

Magicarp.5640:

I don’t know if its just me or this “expansion” is getting really boring.

Every day its the same routine:

Save Tarir , Kill Mordy the wooden Mushu , Try and do a TD and hope it doesn’t fail.

Yeah, I mean.. Vanilla GW2 had so much to do!

Like… the daily!

1 worth of LS progression every two weeks not counting holidays etc…

The same old boring dungeons that none was enjoying and everyone was doing only if they wanted to get money for something. At this point I would like to remind to everyone the definition of grinding : Repeating the same content over and over AND OVER again, the exact same and fastest way possible with your only goal being the reward

Aaand.. that’s it pretty much!

Sniff something something… HoT ruined GW2! … something something Sniff!

Vanilla leveling (which was much more satisfying)
Personal Story
World bosses
Map metas and dynamic events
Map completion
Vanilla WvW
Vanilla PvP
Legendary of every weapon type
Hundreds of armor and weapon skins to acquire for Fashion Wars 2

And vanilla dungeons didn’t reward gold, unless you farmed CoF1, but having 8 dungeons, each with 4 paths meant 32 different dungeon paths, which I and many others did for tokens, and fun.

Andraus.3874:

Viper condi engi

1. Do easy dungeons for tokens. The paltry silver reward and low level mats (leather, etc) are nice too.
2. Save your tokens. After getting enough, use them to buy multiple exotic swords from the dungeon vendor
3. If what you get is the precursor you want, congratulations. If it isn’t, sell that kitten and try again.

Repeat until you A. Get the pre or B. Have enough gold to buy it

It’s so nice to see some positive feedback for once! God bless you, Cele Gele!

Sarrs.4831:

Soa Cirri.6012:

Sarrs.4831:

Why

Why focus on this one throwaway reference/joke at the exclusion of the entirety of the main argument?

Why ignore my refutation of your insistence on grouping (since I already do it).

Why misread my words and then comment on them with dismissive authority?

Look, if you disagree, that’s fine. But why post at all if you’re not going to contribute to discussion?

Not an answer to the question.

I’ll gladly answer a question which is relevant to the point.

Do you deny that an inconsistent alternation of reward and punishment, by its very nature, results in dissatisfaction and discontent (as proven in historical use) or encourages dishonorable behavior? Do you deny that the removal of pips invalidates player experiences? Do you disagree that pips and tiers should be separated?

Because those positions would be relevant.

Also, where’s your answer to my question from several posts ago? Or do I just not deserve one

Sarrs.4831:

Why

Why focus on this one throwaway reference/joke at the exclusion of the entirety of the main argument?

Why ignore my refutation of your insistence on grouping (since I already do it).

Why misread my words and then comment on them with dismissive authority?

Look, if you disagree, that’s fine. But why post at all if you’re not going to contribute to discussion?

Sarrs.4831:

I mean, ANet is trying to mind control you by manipulating the pip system for ranked matchmaking? Bit silly.

Yeah, it is silly. Hence why I never said that.

What I said was:

Soa Cirri.6012:

Obviously this isn’t deliberate on GW2’s part

How do you construe me saying “this tactic obviously isn’t deliberate in GW2”

as “GW2 is deliberately trying to brainwash us”

??

Edit: Also, I do play in a group, I found a couple random PUGs I liked while soloQing and added a friend to the mix. Now please explain how whether or not I am in a group has anything to do with my post, and while you’re at it, how this fixes the problem with the league rank up system?

Validation vs Invalidation

Let’s say you have a balls-to-the-wall, knock-down, drag-out match that’s neck and neck the entire time. Through the heroic act/sacrifice/last-minute-skill-use of yourself or a fellow player you narrowly manage to snag the win.

This, I assume, is meant to be the height of the PvP experience, with an emphasis on ‘experience.’ Something that is intense, and fun, and harrowing and exciting.

For that experience you gain a pip. But that is not just a pip… that is a notch on your belt, a mark of victory a form… of validation.

You deserve that pip. That pip is a signifier that you have validated yourself under trying circumstances.

However, the system doesn’t care. It may pit you in the next match against four diamonds and an emerald who are farming lower-MMR groups for profit, and they whip you 500-30.

Not only have you lost that pip, you’ve lost all of the significance it stood for. Your entire experience has been invalidated by removing what it has earned you from existence.

Until now, and to my understanding, invalidating player experience is the opposite of what GW2 has tried to achieve. It proclaimed this standard early on by introducing instanced loot, where there is no punishment, only reward, and your dedication and skill are demonstrated by the amount and kind of rewards you have amassed, rather than whether you have them at all.

Incentivizing behavior via rewards generally creates more happy, functional children/workers/players than by alternating reward and punishment (inconsistently).

Looking at the state of PvP I see very little happiness or functionality. I see frustration, anger, discontent, distrust, and general malaise. People are quick to point fingers, call others out, and spread blame.

Many of these people will leave. I am already losing friends to this system. If it is the intention of the game’s developers to not only draw in, but keep, its player base, effort needs to be made to assure these players that only honorable behavior will be incentivized, and that great experiences will be validated.

Suggestions

Do not subtract pips, but reward them more sparingly.

Which of these two scenarios is more deserving of a pip?
1. Beating a scrub PUG team with your training-since-release pre-made
2. Beating a training-since-release premade with your scrub PUG

Since pips signify achievement, why should they ever be robbed from players, except by the commitment of gross infraction? A means of linear progression which validates every player achievement and provides predefined rewards should be maintained without the possibility of loss. However, rather than rewarding every win, only “deserving,” i.e. close wins should be rewarded. I think a 100ish gap or less between winner and loser is likely reasonably “close” enough to merit a pip.

What does this mean? Well for one thing, pro teams will gain no pips for farming lower-ranked players. It is logistically much more difficult to engineer a close win than a complete wash, making for a greater risk of actual loss, which is a chance not worth taking. Because even if “loss” is not punished with pips, it brings me to the next suggestion…

Separate pips from tiers
If pips signify your investment, tiers should signify actual skill. Rather than gaining or losing tiers based upon pips, gaining and losing tiers should depend upon win and loss streaks proportional to the division.

For example, in sapphire, it may take only three wins to gain a tier, and five consecutive losses to drop a tier. However, in diamond it would take five consecutive wins to raise in tier, and only two losses to drop. Of course divisions would form the guaranteed floor and ceiling of each set of tiers.

In such a system, a loss does not become a major setback until it becomes consecutive, rather than having a high likelihood of being an immediate invalidation of previous play.

By separating tiers from pips in this way, super pro teams would raise through divisions quickly, good teams would progress moderately, and bad teams would barely progress at all. However, all would have a means of gaining the same pips (in-game rewards) over time if they fought people of their skill level or better and won.

Now at first, pro teams could farm low levels to progress. But by locking most in-game rewards behind pips rather than tiers and divisions, they would only gain in tier and division ranking, pushing them higher into the leagues and bringing them closer to the real top prize of $x00,000. If they really wanted in-game rewards, the incentive would be to fight players closer to their own skill level, increasing the likelihood of getting a pip if they win.

I dunno, that’s just off the top of my head.

(Of the victims)

Everything under the sun has been said about Leagues, and how the level of entertainment it provides ranges between watching a child who refuses to blow their nose insist on rambling at you, an inch from your face, with a glisten trailing down their lip, and the sensation of nails scratching against a chalkboard while you beat your head against said chalkboard.

The mechanical problems of divisions, pips, MMR, class (im)balance, etc, have been detailed and reiterated and seconded and third-ed and forty-fourth-ed. So I’m not gonna discuss that.

I’m no expert really. I have some remarks and suggestions but it’s possible there are major holes in them I haven’t noticed.

But something has really struck me about leagues: how its dynamics of reward and punishment reward dishonorable behavior and punish honorable behavior, in such a way as to specifically cultivate feelings of distrust and dissatisfaction among honorable players, and do disservice to dishonorable ones by denying them any right to a reputation of preeminence even upon achieving victory.

I’ll explain.

Reward and Punishment

The pip system awards or detracts between 0 and 3 pips. According to the system as it is now, and as it seems to have been intended by design, how do you gain pips (reward)?

You can gain pips by beating an equal or “superior” team.
You can gain pips by losing to a “superior” team.

How do you lose pips (punishment)?

You can lose pips by beating a “superior” team (in numbers, if you have a DC)
You can lose pips by losing to another team.

How do you gain/lose zero pips (neither reward nor punishment)?

You can gain zero pips by beating an “inferior” team.
You can lose zero pips by losing against a “superior” team.

Do you notice a pattern here? With every match, the possibility of reward or punishment is completely inconsistent with your level of ability. It’s just as much determined by circumstances beyond your control. As one player you cannot control:
What team you are paired against (superior or inferior, determining whether you stand to gain reward without punishment, or punishment without reward)
What members of your team disconnect
And outside of a full party, you cannot influence in any way the level of ability of your other teammates (even in a party, you are completely at the mercy of others’ skills).

In this system, a player or group of players engaged in the leagues, playing as it is meant to be played, from the beginning, soloQ or with a group of people they know, are at a severe disadvantage. They might gain pips, lose pips, or gain/lose nothing at all. For playing consistently, they can receive a completely inconsistent set of rewards, punishments, and non-reward/punishments.

However, one way to achieve certainty is to put yourself in a position of dishonor, by confusing the system itself, via throwing games or by including lower-ranked people in your party.

By this means you can reliably face groups with a lower skill level than your own while being considered “equal” by the MMR system, guaranteeing a pip gain in the event of a win. This is obviously a superior course to the honorable, “intended” reward/punishment system which is completely inconsistent.

Incidentally, the practice of inconsistently rewarding or punishing the same behavior is a tactic employed in methods of mind control. Obviously this isn’t deliberate on GW2’s part (or at least I hope it isn’t), but this tactic is used to generate feelings of inferiority, hopelessness, and self doubt.

I’m not sure what is intended by the pip system, but regardless of the intentions, it is clearly generating the emotions produced by similar systems used elsewhere. Levels of dissatisfaction, frustration, and discontent are very high.

But, I mean, come on. This is a kittening videogame. This is playable content that is advertised to everyone, loudly and repeatedly. Why is it set up in this way?

However will they farm low div pugs when elementalist greg gets out of emerald??!?!
#savelegreg

Iason Evan.3806:

I was hoping that apology was going to lead to them fixing it.

Hi. You must be new here.

sinject.4607:

no but you can just act like every herald/scrapper/druid/dh and spout “SALT !!!!” like a lobotomized drone regurgitating unfunny memes instead of actually thinking. helps, that way you can just repress any negative feelings you get from valid criticism you recieve over actively being apart of what’s making this game so unenjoyable.

simply put, engage in conversation like you play GW2, mindlessly and without consideration for others.

Man, you got so much

SALT!!!!

Should you feel bad? Here’s why people are getting salty:
The top five builds are top five because of their low skill/high usability.

As a Rev, you are using a low-skill class (not the most low skill, but certainly faceroll mode compared to most others). That doesn’t mean you are low-skilled, necessarily, but it’s like you’re playing one of the builds with training wheels on it (assuming you’re playing meta).

Many people are choosing to play builds with no training wheels, and using racing tires. Higher-skill.

Now despite this, your build/class/bike is not only competitive, but superior to to their bike, and can easily outrace it, despite having training wheels on it.

If that makes you feel guilty, there’s your answer.
If it doesn’t make you feel guilty, there’s your answer.

Asumir.1978:

Is anyone else going through similar symptoms?

<

Leohart.4610:

See you in 3 months.

For god’s sake man, don’t jynx it.

warbignime.4610:

You can also compelete core game story line in a day and their quality are terrible, whats your point?

Lol isn’t ‘their quality are terrible’ an… opinion?

But anyway, I doubt it. In core you have around 50 missions from start to finish, and there are three exclusive mission arcs for each race from lv1-20, one for each race from 20-30, and three again for each of three orders (unless you’re a norn in which you get another exclusive option). Stacked on top of the three arcs you get depending on your choice to the mother tree, we’re looking at hundreds of missions.

But aside form that there was:
PvP
WvW
Jumping puzzles
Dungeons
Crafting

Soon after release there were also fractals

Then you had the temporary content mentioned in the OP

And on top of all of that, hundreds of weapon and armor skins, including a legendary for each weapon type all acquirable in-game.

HighGuy.2794:

If you already bought the core game then the expansion isn’t even close to being worth its current price tag.

I got thousands of hours out of GW2 core. You can do the entire HoT story in a day, excluding the grind required for masteries. The (four) map metas get stale after two or three successes. I did most of the HoT content in a week and then went back to the core game content.

What you gain access to are a half-dozen, quite frankly, mostly ugly armor and weapon skins that can’t be bought off the TP.

You also get the elites and the Revenant. If you want to be playing the absolute meta, especially in PvP, you will need these, but then you’re paying $50 for a class and eight trait lines.

Up to you.

I meant, specifically, the tickets that dropped for the flame&frost and dragonbash events, which could be turned in for Black Lion weapons. There were the karka weapon redeemables, too, obtainable via drops (although those were about as rare as BLKeys).

That of course is the other interesting comparison to make: armor and weapon skins, per piece, per release (GW2 core vs HoT)

1. do all fractal dailies every day (can be done quickly doing only the swamp groups)
2. save the daily chests in your bank
3. open them if/when anet delivers on their buffed frac rewards promise
4. if 3 never happens, at least you’ll have plenty of fractal boxes you can sell

Thanks for putting all these numbers together. I’ve been meaning to do this, mostly for a comparison between GW2 release and HoT. Something significant to note is that some of the temporary content also dropped tickets or other means of getting exclusive skins and minis, no gem store required.

Ayrilana.1396:

Soa Cirri.6012:

Found the manifesto.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oav-tDznRq0

(Guess how well this is maintained)

From like five years ago.

……………………………………..

(No one appreciates classic film on these forums sad face)

Found the manifesto.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oav-tDznRq0

(Guess how well this is maintained)

Shadelang.3012:

Thanks for the words man.

Serious Thought.5394:

=) Glad to have helped.

Heartfelt professions of noble comaraderie in the PvP subforum?

What is this, the Care Bears? You almost produced an emotion from somewhere in my post-HoT blackened soul. Put a stop to this immediately. Where’s that DH guy? We need more salt in here.

CaptainVanguard.4925:

Id love to see these guys come back as some kind of anti-pact, perhaps trying to find a way to control the dragons as opposed to killing them.

There’s already an anti-Pact. It’s called dragons.

Mordremoth is one. He was pretty successful, actually.

Everyone was talking about it for a while. It was kind of a big deal.

Oh, oops, sorry.

SPOILERS

It’s because you’re playing on a mac. All classes manned by mac players take 50% more base damage from other player skills.

The damage and trait are perfectly fair and balanced as long as everyone’s on a PC.

http://metabattle.com/wiki/MetaBattle_Wiki

This one is actually regularly updated, and easy to navigate.

Dudes, what’s all the stress about? The manifesto’s right here, and it’s fine.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Manifesto_of_the_Moletariate

I’m just going to point out that there’s very little crossover between “serious” PvE/WvW/PvP, as evidenced by the complaints on WvW about the hero token skill point things, and the… general disdain many pure PvPers have displayed towards PvE in general.

There’s also a source of stress that you missed, and that’s the holiday season. Thanksgiving and the leadup to Christmas can be pretty stressful. But at the same time, this season immediately after release, during a time when there were gamebreaking bugs out the wazoo was still relatively… blissful.

No, what we’re seeing here is disappointment and disillusionment. HoT was heralded(heheh) as this shining beacon of proof of all that Anet has been doing cloaked in the shadow of its developmental basement, something that they have been hyping for a loooong time, and it… just doesn’t deliver. PvPers feel undervalued because balance has been neglected and the system seems unfair in many ways. WvWers feel undervalued because of the guilds rework and the general relative population drop since HoT launch (which is the opposite of what one would expect after exciting new maps).

PvE is possibly just at maximum saturation. Really, the new metas are just further developments of previous ones, and their density seems like a natural evolution. It may still be too soon to rule on those (keeping in mind the first month or so of ‘improved’ Tequatl runs). But the new PvE content hardly has the depth or breadth of the core game, which is why less than a month later people are already returning to the core content.

When an expansion comes out, you play it, and soon find yourself preferring its predecessor… maybe it’s just me, but I’d say that’s not an indication of a very successful expansion.

Amadeus.5687:

I mean, ideally we should be able to use as close to everything in PvP as we can right?

While PvE, WvW and (s)PvP I think do require different considerations, I would agree that it’s ideal as many traits and skills as possible should be adapted between all modes, including PvP. And Anet has, admittedly, been making some… halting, gradual progress on that.

Amadeus.5687:

Now, there is unblockable attacks and hence I said: Maybe unevadeable attacks would bring a nice and interestring counter to it?

That is an interesting idea, I think, and would make for a good opportunity to add more variety in countering evades. I guess the question is, what sort of attacks should be un-evade-able?

And it is also true that Elixir S does allow you to stomp and rez, but usually if you’re using it for that it means your defense of a point is already likely to succeed. But I will grant that is a very useful degree of utility that evade-granting attacks don’t have.

Amadeus.5687:

Or is that just me finding that silly?

Nope. There are definitely consistency issues here, probably, like you said, due to the nature of how Anet has rolled its various changes out. Now that leagues are out, it’s unlikely this will be addressed for a few months at least, though. :/

Amadeus.5687:

Actually Evade Frams = You can cap!
invulnerability Frames = You can’t cap!

Well, your other examples are certainly valid points, but my point is, for engie, that’s not the case. And you can feel free to call me personally compromised because I main engie and feel like elixir S is pretty useless sometimes, given it shuts down all of your skills and doesn’t do damage or anything.

But I’m not saying engie is UP, either and needs a major buff. I think there is a chance for a substantive argument here, though. First, I will disagree that making something not viable for PvP is necessarily wrong. A lot of things are not viable in PvP, most of them PvE skills which are perfectly viable elsewhere. But to look specifically at the mechanic of evasion:
What makes something unfair to use when capping a point, according to existing mechanics, (and exempting engie of course)? Stealth (can’t be seen or targeted) and invulnerability (can’t be attacked), yes?

So if you have a well which covers an entire cap point which makes everyone inside it (of the mesmer’s team) unable to be attacked, isn’t that… guilty of the same level of unfairness? To me, it doesn’t seem fair that one type of un-attackable-ness is point-capping and another isn’t but I’m certainly open to seeing how it could be.

The built in attacks on the evades are also kind of a slap in the face though, to elixir S… untraited you get an evade with a similar duration on a lower cool down that also does damage. But I digress.

Opc.4718:

The tradeoffs are not negligible…

You make some good points in illustrating in detail comparative advantages of the core virtues, but I will have to again argue that the DH Vs are substantially more useful.

Yes, instant skills are nice by virtue of their being instant. Having an instant aegis or condi removal is nice.

But shouts do the same thing. Shouts can give quickness, aegis, and can be traited to not only remove conditions but convert them to boons (which is superior to traiting VoR, which is necessary for it to remove conditions at all). On top of that they have significantly shorter cooldowns (without even traiting them) and can be combined with runes.

You can actually have the same utility of VoR and VoC actives without actually having them at all, by using shouts which are on shorter cooldowns granting more utility, and also having all new virtues that add additional utility.

Granted, I am one who has been arguing virtues need a buff for a long time (all the way back to my very first forum post). If core virtues are buffed, then absolutely I would agree that losing them is a major trade off. But from where I’m standing right now it just seems almost a no-brainer that the utility of the DH Vs makes them much more must-have than the core Vs, the utility of which can be replicated by shouts, except for the first one, which has the same passive as SoJ (except considerably buffed when DH traited) and whose active is very lackluster.

Amadeus.5687:

this seems more like Anet not being consistent in how they do stuff or just them nerfing a part of a skill without remebering the other part of it

Definitely probably right on the money, there.

But the point kind of stands that evade frames should = nocap, which was the point of the OP (whether he called it blur or displacement, which, to be fair, are as easy to get confused as the various unrelated rulings Anet has made about skills over the years). I mean, for the engie that’s the case, so why is mesmer exempt? If anything, isn’t that disparity proof of a legitimate issue or “breakage”?

IsilZha.3608:

just a general statement that the Elite Spec virtues are better. Just like traiting the base specs up makes them better than the base.

IsilZha.3608:

I don’t recall saying that the elite spec virtues were not better than the base…

So according to you:
1 Elite virtues are much better

IsilZha.3608:

Have to be facing target, cast time, generally single target (can hit multiple, but have to be lined up), can be evaded. The pull has a *40 second cooldown.

2 But it’s still worth mentioning all of their shortcomings as if they’re not negligible in comparison to the weakness of the base

Do you not see how that’s disingenuous? Even a little bit? Like… a teeny tiny bit?

If the argument is “DH virtues > base, with no trade-offs”, and your argument is “there are negligible trade-offs” you consider the entire argument ridiculous and utterly wrong? Because you’ve been using mighty condescending language about the OP, going so far as to call the entire thing factually wrong, which means declaring his DH>base virtues argument factually wrong as well.

IsilZha.3608:

you got all the facts wrong.

(Your hyperbolic emphasis, not mine).

So… is all of it wrong or is only some of it wrong?

IsilZha.3608:

All those comparisons and time spent… too bad I could’ve sworn they weren’t being compared to the engineer, but the declaration that they “had no trade-offs” (compared to the base virtues.) Oh right, that’s exactly what it was.

IsilZha.3608:

the Spear pull is on a separate cool down which is nearly double your example of another pull.

…What other pull? No other pull was invoked in comparison aside from the engie pull. So unless you’re desiring to introduce another mystery skill with a pull and a 25 second cooldown, I’m going to assume you are objectively comparing SoJ and engie pull.

But according to you, the only advantage/disadvantage worth mentioning about a skill when comparing it to another skill, when a list of other comparisons had been made in the OP (which you saw fit to ignore) is… the cooldown, alone?

Is that the only measure by which to compare skills? If something has a higher cooldown by 1.6times it’s automatically not in need of a rework or broken, discounting number of targets, damage, cast time, etc?

Please, do continue.

IsilZha.3608:

you haven’t actually addressed the actual points being made of the thread whatsoever

Man I needed some salt for my dinner, and you did not fail to deliver. ty.

Here’s what you’ve been doing: cherry picking incorrect details and basing your indignant bellicosity on the presumption that only those incorrect details frame the thrust of the argument about the mechanics themselves, despite having mentioned and completely ignored the evidence which holds up under scrutiny.

Keeping this short, I’ll narrow down on one of the many issues here. Here is clarification about what is relevant to the argument I refer to in this case:
“Virtues being 10x better than on base guardian with essentially no trade-off. " = The main argument against DH virtues
(‘10x’, using reading comprehension is of course not meant to be an objective quantitative figure, and is a substitution for “much” or “a lot”.)

So in effect, this is the OP’s argument: DH virtues are “much” better than core/base virtues with no trade-off.
Now it seems obvious, again, using reading comprehension, to see, given the comparisons used in this one sentence, that the DH virtues are being compared to the base virtues, and the argument being made that superiority of the DH virtues come without cost to the build itself.

Now, I’m just going to isolate SoJ for the sake of expediency, and because it was the most detailed “rebuttal,” given that the others were throwaway one-liners without a serious comparison being made.

The OP assertion was:
SoJ has a 20 second CD, is a pull, does power and condition damage, has a 1/4sec cast time, is barely telegraphed, and is unblockable. The contextual assertion is that this is better than a base VoJ, which is merely a periodic burn and an active aoe party burn.

Do you seriously believe that a weak passive/aoe burn and a weak party burn (considering this is the PvP forum, and in PvP full party benefits from active VoJ are laughably unlikely) is an equal, horizontal shift from SoJ, which can cripple and vuln as well as burn and be a pull?

When given the option between those two choices, are you seriously saying that, because SoJ needs to be aimed at all, can’t always hit multiple targets (which is only the benefit of a traited VoJ btw, which ALSO affects SoJ), can be evaded, and has a cast time, you would seriously scratch your chin and think, “Hmmm… which do I really want more? They’re both so good.”

Because saying his argument is wrong is essentially arguing just that.

Disingenuous is putting it very generously.

The skill was also compared to the engie magnet, which has 5 times the cast time, an obvious magnety animation, and does no damage at all.

You pointed out that the cooldown was 40 seconds, not 20. You also said, and reiterating that this was a comparison to engie pull afterwards, you clarify afterwards that you yourself are comparing specifically to the “other pull,” presumably being the engie pull as that was the only other one mentioned.

IsilZha.3608:

the Spear pull is on a separate cool down which is nearly double your example of another pull.

So let’s proceed using this comparison now.

1. you have to be facing the target
-engie pull is the same, so this isn’t a comparative disadvantage
2. cast time
-DH is .25sec, engie is 1.25sec. That’s a 500% difference in favor of the DH pull
3. it only hits one target
-except when it hits multiple, according to your own words, which makes it a comparative advantage to the single-target engie pull
4. can be evaded
-this is not a disadvantage over the engie pull, and the .25sec cast time makes it significantly harder to evade than the engie pull, along with its quicker-erg-harder-to-read-animation
5. cooldown
-DH is 40, engie is 25. THIS IS THE ONE FACTUAL INACCURACY MADE IN THE OP ON THIS ENTIRE ISSUE
And you left out this:
Does damage
-Engie pull does 0 damage
Is free, and slotted automatically on DH
-Engie needs to slot repair kit in the utility bar in order to gain this utility

So. What are the major advantages of the SoJ over engie? The 5xsuperiority of the cast time, the (2?3?5x? the wiki has very little information, and states only the 20second cooldown and passive effects, making it hard to verify this by merely researching it, so your extensive DH experience would help in this matter) superiority of the number of targets, and its free addition to the virtues bar, and direct and condi damage. Disadvantages? A roughly 1.5x cooldown.

And yet, despite the fact that cooldown is the ONE thing not in SoJ’s favor, it is the ONE thing you singled out in comparison and have been harping on since the first post, I would guess because it serves your point that the DH mechanics are not overpowered.

IsilZha.3608:

when you have to exaggerate, lie, and get the actual facts absolutely wrong to make your point, it’s pretty clear even you didn’t think the facts were actually enough to make it sound as bad as you wanted.

Please.

Pimsley.3681:

Rap Tiger.1257:

He is angry because just picked it up and took a bad team perhaps? The alloy system is not bad, the problem is that there are bad players and some casual calls that are also bad, but I thought fantastic system idea, should fall division also only the best players rise because stand not play with my ranger and view map 3 players fighting one of the opposing team, stop complaining the whole game, it is hard to complain, just want things the easy way? Is in PVE then do not care if that player is top 3, I think some GW2 players is more to play Hello Kitty than PVP when I complaint at all

?

But the real question is, has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?

IsilZha.3608:

Oh look, another psudo-intellectual who doesn’t actually know an ad hominem is.

Hehe. You wanna do this? Okay.

An ad hominem is an attack on a person rather than their argument. Any attack you make on the character of the poster, using terms like

IsilZha.3608:

But hey, when you have to exaggerate, lie, and get the actual facts absolutely wrong to make your point

is a brazen ad hominem that does nothing to actually reinforce your argument, but does a great deal to make you sound condescending, so GG on that I guess.

If you wanna keep arguing that you haven’t made ad hominems… actually, go ahead. Please. Do so.

As for your question: Okay. Let’s tackle this, y’know, logically.

What is the OP’s argument? The OP’s argument is that certain mechanics are OP. The other kind of OP. Obviously.

Now the OP mis-stated the details of some of his supporting evidence. Sure. He even admitted it. However, the core of the argument is based entirely around the mechanics, as they are, being broken. Not around the specifics of the mechanics’ details.

So logically, if I could argue, “This radiator’s broken because the flux capacitor is misaligned,” by your “logic,” you could swoop in and say “HAHA YOU HAVE TO BE A STUPID IDIOT TO SAY THAT BECAUSE HERES A DIAGRAM RADIATORS DONT EVEN HAVE FLUX CAPACITORS! YOU MORON!”

What have you proven?
Radiatiors don’t have flux capacitors.

But you have not proven that the radiator is not broken.

In other words, you are guilty of the actual “fallacy” fallacy. Because parts of the argument weren’t true, you have seen fit to dismiss the entire OP’s OP. Interestingly, you have said that

You clearly don’t have one since you got all the facts wrong.

As the core of your fallacy, that statement is, itself, factually incorrect, because some of the OP’s other stated facts are not wrong, and you have admitted your lack of qualifications for verifying the points made about non-DH mechanics. Even the resident mesmer defender’s point in arguing against the OP on his facts, was, itself, factually incorrect. And not only is that statement of yours factually wrong because it is exaggerated, but it’s also disingenuous, and so could be construed as a lie, assuming you read and understood the OP.

IsilZha.3608:

But hey, when you have to exaggerate, lie, and get the actual facts absolutely wrong to make your point

Hmm.

But as you have entirely misconstrued the OP’s argument as “these details are true,” which is obviously weak, rather than the harder to attack “these details support my argument that the mechanics are broken,” that is yet another fallacy: a strawman.

But I’m just a pseudo-intellectual, so what do I know?

Cynz.9437:

You would think Anet would do A BIT of research and learn from other companies mistakes (since player feedback on this matter is useless apparently).

Perhaps if they rewarded players who did their research for them with a discount on the Black Lion Trading post, so that they could monetize the research, then it might be done…

andyMak.6985:

ChrizZcE.5981:

What is this Heart of Thrones you speak of?

similar to Heart of Thornes but for the dyslexic

Actually it’s the new tie-in with Game of Thrones.

edit:

Heart of Thrones is like Game of Thrones, but with pink unicorns and nobody dies.

Heart of Thornes is the sequel to the Bold and the Beautiful.

kittenmit someone beat me to it.