Guild Wars 2

I quietly pray a little bit every night for Elementalist to get a Sword with Melee and Arcane based skills.

Spellblade, go!

I don’t think they’d get Greatsword, Shortbow, Axe or Hammer because they can already get them after a fashion with summon weapons.

And what could be made different about a Longbow from a Staff, in all honesty?

A sword still has a vastly different ‘melee’ playstyle to daggers, and even daggers with elementalists are not -really- ‘melee’.

I would have kind of liked a sword for Engineers as well, looking at Canach, but from the trailer it’s clear that’s not happening just yet!

I just desperately want a MH sword for my elementalist.

My (preferred, but also somewhat predicted) line-up for new weapons is:

Mesmer: Shield (Trailer)
Engineer: Hammer (Trailer)
Elementalist: Sword
Ranger: Staff (Told)
Necromancer: Greatsword (Told)
Warrior: Don’t actually know. Pistol? Potentially Staff with signet-abilities? Rytlock used a sword and pistol when he was still a warrior. So leaning Pistol.
Thief: Rifle
Guardian: Tough one. Axe? Longbow? Leaning Longbow but not sure.

Basically to summarise this thread:

- Konig broke.
- His horde of sycophants begged him not to leave because he is the ‘loremaster’.

And it’s hilarious.

The problem is evidence was never required. This obsession with it being needed is bizarre.

Speculating and theorising was all that we had because the answer was never given.

The answer has been given now.

Somebody throwing a tantrum is the best thing about this thread.

Talk about overreaction, in fact, there is a lot of overreaction.

It is quite, quite clear that not -all- sylvari have collectively gone mad and starting serving a dragon. I highly doubt that happened, the sylvari who were with the Pact fleet, however, were instantly taken over and directed to help destroy it because the dragon who has been stated to have the sphere of ‘Mind’ and is quite clearly behind other sylvari going mad was -right below them-.

It is clearly not their fault and there’s nothing they could do about it, and there were some exceptions no doubt, like obviously the player character if he/she is a sylvari, Trahearne, Caithe and most likely others as well.

So, seriously. This is by no means “Oh, all sylvari are evil now.” that is an overreaction just like “This is the worst thing ever!” is also an overreaction.

And for the record? I never really 100% believed sylvari being dragon minions was true, but I acknowledged it as potentially being the answer, along with them being the world fighting back against the dragons by creating the tree and thus them, and any other myriad of theories that there were.

But it’s happened, I find it interesting and that trailer is love. Especially Canach in Divinity’s Reach talking to Seraph/Nobles/Shining Blade/Other humans and the Pact soldiers fighting turned sylvari/Nightmare Courtiers.

We have received an update to the lore, an answer to a question that is often asked. Throwing a fit because it’s not the answer that was wanted or because you think it’s ‘not the correct way to tell the story’ (What gives you the right to say that?) is just not very thoughtful.

Me tinks people are selling humans a bit short here, no?

FlamingFoxx.1305:

The Dwarves transformation is as far as we know irreversible. I think it’s quite safe to say they will never become a playable race.

As for Scarlet creating a new race – she already has. She engineered the Toxic hybrid, a fusion between Krait and Sylvari – of course this thing is not going to become a playable race xD, but it gives you a very good indication of what anything she creates is likely to be like.

As for Scarlet’s story arc leading to a new playable race – not likely. Dev’s have already stated that new playable races are further down the line in GW2’s lifetime. New professions have been stated to be more likely I think, and even those aren’t likely to be something we see in the near future.

The aversion to dwarves returning among some on this forum continues to amuse me. That people are so hostile and unwilling to debate possibilities without resorting to “nope not going to happen insert random proclamation or percentage chance here” is baffling.

Never underestimate the power and relevance of an option with so much grounding and potential in lore.

Actually, he may have his hands full. Zhaitans Undead are nearby him, and Kralkatorrik decided to make his home nearby too.

Correct. I can’t remember where I read it, but it’s been said that Zhaitan’s Risen and Palawa’s undead were fighting in the deserts of Elona. Must have been quite terrifying to behold – Undead vs undead.

And now Kralkatorrik is down there as well.

I would bet money on seeing Palawa as an ally, not an enemy.

Umh.

Jalis and his Vanguard were not 99% of the dwarven race, Gandarel. I use Ogden as an example because he is the one modern example that we have.

“They act as guardians of the Depths of Tyria, fighting off the minions of Primordus and denying them passage to the surface. As such, they are hardly ever seen. "

“At first, only the advance force accompanying King Jalis participated in the ritual and were turned to stone. Over the following fifty years, the remaining dwarves participated. As of the present, no dwarf of flesh and blood remains. "

From the GW2 wiki.

The dialogue is just that, dialogue, it is speculation from a single character and situational.

Of course the dwarves were overconfident. They are made out of stone! Blessed by their god! What can possibly defeat them? (Look, personality and flaws! Like all races have!)

200 years have passed since then, 200 years of -defending- the surface. Not forging into the Depths. Attitudes might well have changed. Hell, they probably would have been different from the start.

My entire point being there is very much room for ArenaNet to make stone dwarves into a unique playable race with a lot of depth, and it would most importantly make sense.

Do you want more evidence that we have not been told everything about the ritual and its effects? Here. Also from the GW2 wiki.

“Though a great deal of dwarven lore comes from the Tome of Rubicon, the actual contents of the tome have been copied and re-written over the years, and sometimes its contents have been changed for political reasons.”

We have not been told everything. Taking what the Tome of Rubicon said at face value is folly.

Gandarel. You’re not reading what I have wrote.

They haven’t got the goal to defeat Primordus only. They have the goal to defeat the Dragons. (Again, like every playable race currently)

Why was there a dwarf fighting Risen?

Why is Ogden researching ways to combat ALL the dragons?

The evidence is not supporting your point.

Primordus was the only dragon to have awakened at the time of the ritual, and the Destroyers were the only active minions. That’s why it appears like they are focused purely on Primordus. Because he was the first to appear. He is the first they reacted to.

Once Primordus is defeated, they are then free to turn on the other Dragons.

And if they appear in a Primordus focused expansion as a playable race, there you go, we defeat Primordus at the end of that expansion, and then the dwarves can move on to other Dragons.

They will just go “SMASH ’EM!!”, without having any plans and without caring anything about the safety of themselves and allies.

Evidence. Ogden has done nothing to indicate this attitude. Nothing ArenaNet has said has indicated this.

The only evidence is Jalis and his Vanguard from GW1. But again, that is one group of dwarves who are likely dead by now. As I stated, the rest of the dwarven race have been guarding the exits to the surface ever since they turned to stone, not charging off mindlessly. They are defending.

Sort of like every other playable race at the start of GW2, don’t you think?

I’ve already provided my reasons for why the door is still open as a playable race elsewhere on these forums, but I’ll reply to this.

You’re correct that the ritual is irreverseble, but the thing to keep in mind is that we still don’t know what exactly the ritual did. Ogden only theorises on the spot when it happens to Jalis and co. He doesn’t have any evidence to back it up.

For all we know, they only get the overriding “Kill Dragons” directive when the dragons and their minions are nearby. Once they’re dead, or not in the general area, who knows how they’ll act? In fact, Ogden supports this – He’s fighting the dragons, yes (Along with every other major race in the world at the moment), but he’s not going crazy when dragon minions are nearby, and he’s not fighting in the traditional sense. This is proof that dwarves are still individuals despite the directive, and have some method of control and different ways they react. It’s also worth noting only Jalis and his vanguard charged into the Depths, the rest of the dwarven race when they turned to stone went to the exits to the surface and guarded them. This strongly indicates different ways dwarves have reacted to the change, they’re not all doing the same thing.

The ritual and its effects have not been fully developed and explored to make a concrete statement on it – Even that is a unique and interesting story point for a playable race. Wouldn’t you agree?

There are also many ways to complete this directive. Like Ogden, again. We also have evidence of a dwarf fighting Risen alongside humans, this is further proof they can act independantly.

They have one goal and one goal only now as a race, that is to defeat dragons

You mean… The entire point of GW2?

But it HASN’T written them off, has it?

That’s my entire point. Stop ignoring it.

ArenaNet have backtracked significantly since that “quote” (still using the term lightly because I still haven’t seen it linked). This is undeniable fact as it is right there in the game.

Unless they are failing spectacularly at writing something off. If they want lessons on how to do such, they should look at Games Workshop. They wanted to write out Squats, they said they got eaten by Tyranids in a throw-away paragraph in an old edition rulebook and then NEVER MENTIONED THEM AGAIN IN OFFICAL SOURCES. Anywhere. That’s how you write something off. Blizzard wrote off Med’an by saying he’s gone to a different dimension and then never mentioned him again in any official sources. That’s another example of how you write something off.

As it happens, I don’t think ArenaNet is that stupid, no, they are backtracking on their (or should I say, one man’s) wish to ‘write’ the dwarves off.

I am sure people are smart enough to come up with ways around these so called problems. It’s so minor, on par with a design ‘problem’ rather than a lore problem that it’s not even worth discussing on a lore forum. (I’ve even suggested that playable dwarves would wear cloth, different armour etc over their stone bodies in an attempt to claw some individuality back, interesting story point, no?)

Of course the dwarves have/had females whilst they were still flesh, to suggest otherwise is silly.

don’t think Konig’s going on the attack in this thread, so much as relaying the info we have on the dwarves. So far we have Jeff Grubb stating that dwarves are intended to be written out. Which is considered word-of-God in every other situation and topic. Then Ogden saying he is the last of the dwarves in-game. So while A-net may change their mind at some later point, they have stated their intent about the dwarves and they have followed through in the lore.

For the last time, this so called last dwarf outright tells the player the player the dwarves are still fighting Primordus. More up-to-date sources of lore (IE, Guild Wars 2 itself), makes consistent hints at the dwarves still being around and still being pretty important, stopping the majority of the Destroyers from bursting to the surface.

(Nor has anyone actually directly linked to this Q&A to confirm it, I remain skeptical that it was actually said in the context people are painting it as, when an extensive Google search does not show me the exact Q&A)

They may decide they want the GW franchise to start mirroring other fantasy universes but we do know that their last known goal was to move away from that by writing dwarves out and redesigning the sylvari to make sure that they weren’t elves.

Again, for the last time, ArenaNet have -already- made the dwarves different to other fantasy universes. Your logic. It is not working.

Even if they make another appearance, you can bet your granny’s kitten that they won’t be going back to how they were in Prophecies. If you want to see that, it’s best to just buy GW1.

facedesk

This isn’t getting into your head, is it?

People don’t want them back like they were in Prophecies. That would be going back to a Fantasy Stereotype (Even if they were still pretty different then if you actually give it more thought beyond “They’re dwarves” >_>). People want them how they are now, which is different to the norm.

What they are now does not preclude them from being a major or even playable race.

I think the way to go with him is still have him lead the Pact, be there as a presence, but don’t have him be the one on the stage all the time.

However, I also see the need for a character to be on the stage beyond the player character, and for this reason I am going to predict that against each Dragon and their corruption we’ll have a different figure to focus on. Maybe of one of the main races, but perhaps not.

For example, Ogden for Primordus.

I don’t think anyone here ever stated that dwarves are short norn. Rather, there were simply a couple folks stating that dwarves and norn hold similarities in culture (this mostly being due to holding similar origins in norse mythology and culture).

Which is, as I stated, false, just because their -inspirations- are similar doesn’t make their actual -in lore- culture similar. As I stated one of the ‘major’ character interactions in Eye of the North was between a dwarf and a norn and was highlighting the differences between them.

What I am trying to do by pointing this out is to get people to stop going “They’re exactly the same/similar because inspirations.”, as a reason for them not being playable.

as things are now they won’t.

See. It’s statements like this that drive me up the wall. You can’t know that and you can’t say it like it is fact, as you actually admitted just before what you typed here. It has the potential to confuse people. Not to mention how incredibly pointless such a statement is – Of course at the present time they won’t be made playable because ArenaNet hasn’t even announced plans for an expansion yet, let alone content in that expansion.

And to be honest what happened to the dwarves -does- make them a compelling race to a fair few, that can’t exactly be denied.

In a way it’s hilarious – It made them different from the stereotypical fantasy norm, which was apparently one of the reasons for ‘writing them off’. So they write the dwarves off, in the process making them unique and un-stereotypical, and the reason they were writing them off in the first place is because they were stereotypical. Thereby invalidating the reasoning for writing them off in the first place. Confusing logic x_x

Sure! They can have them appear in game as NPCs and be awesome. But then ANet runs into the problem Blizzard is having with High Elves at the moment after 5.1 and 5.2. Giving a non-playable race awesome moments and screen time just makes people want to play them. Case in point: Kodan. And Kodan are much, much more similar to Norn than Dwarves are to Norn.

(Though to be fair Blizzard is burying their heads in the sand to that particular issue. I can only hope ArenaNet doesn’t do the same thing)

Quoted from my thread ages ago because people like forgetting it:

What was said before on the subject of the dwarves, that they were too stereotypical fantasy and unoriginal, is, I feel, false. The very fact that the dwarves would be resurgent would be bucking the stereotype, and the fact that they would be made of stone, essentially sentient golems, also does this. They can also fit the ‘One internal enemy, one external enemy’ theme that all the current races have (Like Flame Legion and Ghosts for Charr), in the Stone Summit and Destroyers (Like Nightmare Court and Risen for sylvari).

The parralels between the Great Dwarf and the Pale Tree are, whilst not obvious, there. The Pale Tree’s seed was created by the world itself. Surely a resurgent dwarf race would help reinforce the feeling that the world itself is fighting back against the dragons – tree and rock, twig and pebble. They have been a part of the dragon’s defeat before, and could be viewed as a tremendous asset that improves the chances the world has against the dragons significantly. And their return would give the human race a much needed boost – Other races say the humans are dying, and the return of the dwarves would help prove that the ‘elder races’ are not dead yet, nor have any intention of dying.

The character’s personal story would be finding his purpose in fighting with other races of the world against the Elder Dragons. Overcoming the isolationism of the remaining dwarves that have been fighting for 200 years and eventually changing their opinions.

The dwarves may not have a future beyond the Elder Dragon threat, but seeing as they are so intimately tied story-wise to the Dragons, it’s not that out of place (They fought all of them, not just Primordus, in history). And isn’t the Elder Dragon threat the whole point of GW2 and its potential expansions? So the dwarves do still fit in and they can still eventually fade away once the dragons are done. It would be the perfect bitter sweet ending for them. Go out in a final blaze of glory fighting all the Elder Dragons alongside the other races of the world, as they did in ages past, though naturally the option for them to simply live on in peace is also there.

ArenaNet has back tracked significantly on dwarves. They’ve gone from “Extinct” to “Rumours they are about.” to Ogden in Arah Explorable outright stating “They are fighting Primordus.” so the way is open.

I might also point out to those saying “dwarves small norn hurrdurr” that one of the MAIN INTERACTION POINTS BETWEEN OGDEN AND JORA IN EYE OF THE NORTH WAS HOW DIFFERENT DWARVES AND NORN WERE. There are superficial similarities at best. Humans in GW2 love ale as well. Are they short Norn? Dwarves also existed perfectly fine with Norn and Charr in the universe in Guild Wars 1. So I am not entirely sure where this suggestion that Norn and Charr replaced Dwarves is coming from. It’s nonsensical and has no basis in actual sense and logic.

People say they would not be any different personality wise to what we know, but they conveniently forget this quote: “Changed in body and mind.” The emphasis being on MIND. There is a SOLID lore reason for them to be different to the stereotypical dwarves we are used to.

Now you see the folly in trying to draw similarities.

Also, as I have said AGAIN AND AGAIN. If ArenaNet WANTED to get rid of dwarves completely they COULD have by saying “They’ve all died fighting Primordus.” but they HAVEN’T said this. They have infact had Ogden say that the dwarves are STILL FIGHTING.

Nor have I ever seen anyone provide an exact quote from ArenaNet that said “Dwarves will never be playable ever.” I’ve seen it said a lot, but I have seen no link directing me to the quote. So I am forced to follow what I see in this RECENT game, GW2 – And what I see is ArenaNet consistently hinting at dwarves – Come on, people, use your eyes. One of their premier artworks has a dwarf fighting alongside humans. If they wanted them ‘written off’ they wouldn’t have done that. Genius logic.

http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/8131/gw2dwarf.png for reference.

Excuse the capitals, but it seems people on this forum do not read.

Full thread here, where I have consistently countered arguements with sourced lore, I may point out that none of the counter points presented to my theories have any sources or references besides something ArenaNet have not said outright.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/Dwarves-The-possibilities/first

And people would be outright lying if they said they didn’t want to hear a remaster of this piece of music: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QnflSWxyEWI

Remember that we were told Palawa Joko’s undead were fighting Zhaitan’s Risen in the deserts (That would be terrifying to watch. Undead vs undead). He’s probably fighting Kralkatorrik in the Crystal Desert now as well. So that’s Kralkatorrik potentially out of the picture whilst we deal with other threats.

I’d personally say that Jormag or Primordus will be next. But I’d prefer the latter – We’re told the dwarves are still fighting him and they could very well be on their last legs now that we’re seeing more and more Destroyers on the surface, evidently their defences are failing. Ogden should probably kick people a lot and tell them to go help the dwarves.

I know this isn’t Middle Earth’s lore but it was inspired though, but how Jackson brought those characters to life was simply amazing! Those Dwarves were so badarse, I don’t even think elves can fight that well.

But I also really like what ANet did with the Dwarves in EotN and now GW2, so I don’t think I’d want them to reverse the transformation to make them playable. And since ANet has been adamant about not caring for ‘typical’ fantasy races, I don’t think we’ll ever see them actually playable.

Norns are like like giant dwarves. They totally act like that. I don’t think they will add dwarves to the playable ones.

Imagination, people. They don’t have to become flesh again. They can stay stone and be playable. Sylvari are made of plants, why can’t something be made out of rocks?

Stone dwarves would not be a typical fantasy race. ANet have the material to make dwarves different right THERE in GW1, they don’t even have to make it up. Turning to stone -changed- them. The exact quote is “Changed both in body and mind.”

Personality too similar to Norn? Change it then. After the transformation the dwarves having changed is hardly out of the blue. They’ve been fighting a constant war against the Destroyers below the surface for 200 years – That’s again reason enough for them to change personality wise. (And actually, the DIFFERENCES between Norn and Dwarves were explored in GW1, as well. They were never the same. Norn and Dwarves existed perfectly fine besides each other in GW1, why can’t they for GW2?)

As I have said again and again, ANet have been consistently backtracking on saying that the dwarves were extinct ever since GW2 started, with Ogden outright stating in Arah Explorable that the dwarves are -still fighting Primordus-.

Plus, we absolutely need a redux of this theme: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LzTwnfmI9w

3. Dwarves. Far less likely since Anet seems to be pushing the angle that they’re not just hiding out underground and only have a couple survivors left, but would still be cool.

Umh. Not really. They’ve been consistently back-tracking on ‘dwarves extinct’ since the start of GW2. Ogden outright states in Arah Explorable that the dwarves are still fighting Primordus in the depths.

Dwarves are very unlikely, also knowing that females are hardly different from males already makes already con.

And Charr females didn’t exist in game in GW1. That’s not really an argument to level against non-playable dwarves.

And that’s enough of letting this lie untended to. Smacks thread

Kalavier.1097:

My problem with a playable dwarf.

A: We’ve been told in GW1 and GW2 that the Dwarves mindset has pretty much been turned to “WAR WITH DESTROYERS AT ALL COSTS. KILL THEM ALL”. IIRC, when you reach the Central Transfer chamber Jalis screams and leads a charge into another section of caverns to fight the destroyers while the heroes goes against the great destroyer. Odgen is the last dwarf above the surface, and the Dredge believe he is the last dwarf… EVER.

B: All the other races you can start as somebody who is either skilled, or learning and new to the world and their class. A stone dwarf would have been fighting for 250 years+ against the Destroyers. The element of “Learning the ropes” is completely gone with them as all of them are vets.

C: There are other races that can be used for playable ones. Tengu for example, Kodan is another (While they are all polar bears, we’ve seen some with black paint/tattoos). Largos might be an option, Centaurs maybe (there have been groups friendly to humans in the past).

D: It’d frankly (IMO)… ruin the experiance. It would remove the aspect of “Odgen’s the last dwarf working with us. Let’s find out as much as we can about the dwarves from ruins and Arah to learn what we can!” and replace it with “Hey, let’s ask one of our handy dandy Dwarves just around the bend of the road!” A thing in GW2 is of the ancient races that had encountered the Elder Dragons before, only the Jotun truly remain. And they have lost everything and won’t help. Mursaat, Seer, Forgotten have all disappeared. Dwarves are to public knowledge extinct (those that know better know any survivors are deep, deep underground in constant battle).

A. A fair point. However, I counter this by saying that the charr are pretty much all about war, but this does not stop them from doing other things. And as we have seen from sources (Ogden, and that one dwarf in the artwork fighting alongside humans against Risen) dwarves are capable of doing things other than fighting Destroyers – And if they are introduced in a Destroyer expansion they will be doing exactly that, fighting Destroyers, and once the Destroyers are gone and Primordus defeated the dwarves can then move on to fighting other dragons and their minions. The player character going around the world leveling up can be explained that due to circumstances he has more independence than the rest of his/her/its race, and that could even be part of the dwarves’ personal story – Finding a way to break dwarves out of their mold and let them go on and do other things.

B. Another fair point, this could be solved by a suspension of disbelief in regards to leveling. Or the dwarf character becoming more experienced in fighting other things rather than just Destroyers.

C. There are indeed other races that can be playable. Personally I am of the opinion it would be cool if there was a playable race for each dragon. Which would mean Tengu = Bubbles(?), Kodan = Jormag, Elonian Undead (Example) = Kralkatorrik (He’s in Elona now). This leaves Primordus for dwarves.

D. I don’t think it would ruin the experience, it evolves on the lore point that the world is fighting back against the dragons – As the dwarves are essentially made out of the ‘world’ now, having them return reinforces this to an extent. It also would give the current races a boost, having an elder race join their ranks is a huge boon after all. Ogden is the only one on the surface, true, however in Arah Explorable he says the rest of the dwarves are still fighting Primordus and the Destroyers. Also, this quote implies that only Jalis and his Vanguard charged off into the Depths, the rest of the dwarves when they turned to stone guard the exits:

“They act as guardians of the Depths of Tyria, fighting off the minions of Primordus and denying them passage to the surface. As such, they are hardly ever seen.”

I literally did not understand a single word of that.

Lorewise I am saying it is quite possible for there to be enough dwarves for them to be playable. 10,000 dwarves left in lore? That’s still perfectly fine for a single server, even including NPCs. And because there are 10,000 dwarves in lore there are 10,000 dwarves on Piken Square and 10,000 dwarves on Gandara. I have never said at any point there’d be differing amount of dwarves in lore for each server. :P

Your last sentence? I haven’t been saying that at all.

Indeed! A race expansion is a long way off. And there are other gameplay features to sort out before then. I cannot stress enough I am not crying out in a high voice “GIEF DWARVES NOW”. I am simply attempting to draw attention to the fact that playable dwarves are a reasonably popular thing, and providing reasons to back them up.

Of course, there are also other races which can be made playable easily – Tengu and Kodan among them – Perhaps even Elonian Undead? Playable mummies!

That’s my POINT.

Destiny’s Edge don’t know that because in lore servers don’t exist. Therefore the total numbers of dwarves and other races over all the servers does not matter. It is the population on an INDIVIDUAL server that matters. (And as I have stated, the population of playable dwarves on a server will never be high, which fits the lore)

YOU were the one that started going on about player numbers, until then I have only been talking about LORE, the fact you have not countered my lore points in any comprehensible fashion, and not had them shot down by me replying, simply tells me you have run out of arguments.

I have gone out of my way to answer every single one of your arguments, yet all you do is attack me personally. The only reason I am still replying is so the thread is bumped at this point.

Yes, there are 100s of Logans etc etc. But there is only ONE Logan and ONE Eir on ONE server, and therefore ONE in the story.

They’re all separate worlds. They are individual and not connected to each other. Thus why the race populations of the servers will not be added up for the purposes of calculating numbers in lore.

This is not a difficult concept to grasp, EliteZ.

I’m sorry! I must have missed that inane mention of player numbers because I tend to ignore those arguments, for your benefit I’ll quite happily answer them.

I’m quite sure there will not be a million people playing dwarves. Certainly not on the same server. And seeing how each server is a different world, the population of dwarves over the entire number of servers doesn’t really matter. On each individual server there’s not going to be a million people playing dwarves. In fact if they were playable they’d probably be among the least populated race, which would even fit the lore! Not that it fits lore at the moment – All those humans characters compared to the number of charr characters? Charr should outnumber humans in lore, yet they don’t in game player numbers wise.

Do we even have numbers for the highest populated server? I am pretty sure it’s not even going to reach a million by itself.

You see why I normally ignore arguments of player numbers? I hope that’s understandable.

Of course it is. You have to have an in-game explanation for your character’s existence after all. Mr. and Ms. Norn had sex and had my Norn character. How would you explain the creation of your dwarf? You can’t just have the population of this dying and finite race of beings just explode.

… Umh. The dwarf you play was one of the citizens of Deldrimor that turned to stone 200 years ago, and then proceeded to the exits to the surface to guard them?

belara.6710:

I think creating dwarves would be too…plain. GW2 is supposed to be unique, adding dwarves would make it like alot of other games. Though, they should add another race to just open up the variety. But seriously?Do you really need dwarves in GW2? They already failed in GW1.

Mrhmn. The GW dwarves are unique, or at the very least markedly different from the dwarves of other settings.

Stone dwarves -would- be variety.

They didn’t fail. They’ve been holding off the majority of the Destroyers for the past 200 years whilst the rest of the races killed each other or dragged their feet or hadn’t even awoken yet.

Oglaf.1074:

How could there possible be playable dwarves when they can’t procreate?

Procreation is not a requirement for a playable race, me tinks. And if you think it is, then doesn’t that strike you as a bit arbitrary and restrictive?

TJV.6239:

Then Your point of view is entirely redundant. You can hold to it, but it is pointless and stupid. Lore-wise dwarves make no sense as a playable race and ANet don’t have a tendency of mutilating lore in order to appease players. They’re not the evil that is Matt Ward and the smurfs, space vampires, and Kaldor Drago the most awesome of awesome (I am aware that this is a reference few of you will get. Deal with it)

There is a difference between narrow mindedness and an understanding of fact/truth. If something is true then it cannot be untrue. Dwarves are not nor ever will they be a suitable playable race in the Guild Wars universe. Aside from this they are far too common a race – almost any other fantasy setting MMO has a Dwarf playable race. Arena Net have their own plans – they have their own world with their own design of races. I believe there is a reason they were turned to stone at the end of EotN and it wasn’t just for the lore. I think it is the developers way of saying “no – we’ll do our own thing.”

I think that your argument is not one of open-mindedness but extreme close mindedness. It seems to me that you cannot fathom a fantasy world without Tolkien elements to it – something that Dwarves are.

You’re not one to say whether my view point is redundant or not. It’s not mutilating lore. How is it actually mutilating lore? Can you explain this? Rather than just stating it as fact? And yes, I get the Matt Ward reference. I don’t think dwarves making a return are quite on the level of his liberties with the lore.

I have already stated the dwarves in Guild Wars are DIFFERENT from dwarves in other fantasy settings. ArenaNet have made this so. I would like dwarves playable because the Guild Wars dwarves and how they could be different, with different mindsets, different priorities etc etc are extremely interesting for me, and others.

You do not back up your points with reasons, you simply state them as fact, when it is not fact. This infuriates me more than anyone actually countering my points does. You have not countered my points. Well, that’s a lie – You’ve countered one of my points, which I have replied to in the paragraph above.

Oh, I can fathom a world without dwarves (Even if the Guild Wars world is not actually without dwarves, it’s been repeatedly stated they are still around and fighting). I’m quite pleased with Guild Wars 2, I just think dwarves would be a good addition that – As I have stated before, it continues the theme that the world is fighting back against the dragons. (Not that I actually see how your last paragraph is a counter to my points, rather simply a personal attack on me, which tends to be a theme with these kind of arguments. Can’t counter the points? Attack the poster!)

Greyalis.2309:

One way maybe is if the dwarves became sort of stone elemental dwarves—playing in stone form so they become a little different than the common dwarf stereotype. It would be cool to play as a stout dwarf made of stone with glowing eyes or something.

Exactly! I wouldn’t even be going on about them if there was no way to make them different from the stereotype now filled in partly by asura and partly by norn. The reason why I think Guild Wars Dwarves are viable for playable races is precisely because they can be different from the norm, due to changes they have undergone.

I know exactly what happened. When I speak about dwarves and wanting playable dwarves, I am talking about keeping them as stone, not making them flesh again.

Keeping them stone makes them different, and is not out of the realm of possibility (Sylvari are plants).

Charr are vehemently fighting ghosts. Humans are vehemently fighting centaur. Focusing on fighting something for the majority of the time doesn’t exclude something from being a playable race!

Agree with those saying Dwarves cannot possibly become a playable race. I remember Arena.net employees stating the dwarves became extinct since GW1, but if you see the cinematics of EotN, you’ll see they say no such thing.
Ogden remains above ground telling the story and refuses to undergo the transformation of the rest of the collective to begin with, but reluctantly does so eventually – and you meet him again in GW2 in Durmand Priory and quests.
EotN cinematics also state King Jalishammer and the remaining dwarves pursued the Destroyer into the depths to continue the fight, and this fits right in with what Ogden says in the dialogue in Durmand Priory. But he alone remains above ground, and this setting does not open up to possibility of a sudden flourish of dwarves above ground as a playable race. It would take a considerable amount of backtracking on the lore so far on Arena.net’s behalf, too much imho, to suddenly have the dwarves return.

Think your energy is better spent requesting some other races playable, Kodan, Tengu, Quaggan, etc.

And more recent sources (Aka, GW2) says dwarves are not extinct and still fighting Primordus and the Destroyers primarily.

I know. I have met Ogden more than a few times, including in Arah Explorable – Which is where he says the dwarves are still fighting Primordus with no mention of ‘dying out’ or ‘extinct’.

King Jalis Ironhammer and his Vanguard remained in the Depths to take the fight to the Destroyers. Eventually the rest of the dwarven race also undertook the ritual and became stone – They now guard the exits to the surface against the Destroyers.
“They act as guardians of the Depths of Tyria, fighting off the minions of Primordus and denying them passage to the surface. As such, they are hardly ever seen. "

ArenaNet have already been backtracking on the issue of dwarves throughout GW2. And future monthly events could reintroduce them steadily, building up to being a playable race, as the following revelation hints to me:
http://www.gamebreaker.tv/video-game-shows/guild-wars-video/guildcast-guild-wars-show/guildcast-ep57-not-quite-guild-wars-2-expansion/

“there will be no new race, profession, or new region with these larger Feb/March releases.”

A proper ‘expansion’ as we traditionally regard them as a long way off, but the fact ArenaNet mention both race, profession and region in the same breath hints to me that they are all on the cards for the future.

I’ll decide where I spend my energy, and I adamantly believe offering suggestions and pointing out certain aspects of lore, and making ArenaNet aware of the support for playable dwarves is a good use of some of my free time.

Shrug

As I said, I disagree with both your points, and feel I have offered reasonable counters. I’m not going to repeat myself again and again. So I will simply say this: Find me an exact quote where an ArenaNet official has said dwarves will never be playable. Because I am reasonably certain they have not said that exactly. You say it would be lore-breaking, I say it would be lore evolving – Developing on the theme that the world is fighting back against the dragons. We fundamentally disagree and going back and forth will only clog up the thread, even if it’s bumping it.

The one thing I will object to is being painted to look like I am the only one that supports playable dwarves, I’m not.

Then think about the fact that Anet will not add dwarves as a playable race just because one person refused to let anyone else on the forums think otherwise.

I replied to the last part of the quote as well – I’m not the only person, as you can see from this thread and others. You are taking an incredibly arrogant and highhanded stance on this.

anyway argue with yourself from now on because you’re blindness, although it is quite amusing, is getting very boring and pointless. We’ll see what Anet want to do with the idea.

Especially with that.

Simply put, there are no possibilities.

I am suggesting possibilities.

Also Ogden once said that the Dwarfs were ‘too few’ to contain the Destroyers and needed allies from the other races.

The charr are ‘too few’ to fight the Dragons by themselves without allies. The sylvari are ‘too few’ to fight the Dragons by themselves without allies. The asura are ‘too few’ to fight the Dragons by themselves without allies. The norn are ‘too few’ to fight the Dragons by themselves without allies. The humans are ‘too few’ to fight the Dragons by themselves without allies.

Even Ogden, left behind to tell the tale, is doing so only to help fight the destroyers, as knowledge is power.

No, he’s helping to fight -all- the Dragons and their minions, hence why I assume that dwarves are capable of fighting other Dragons and their minions as well (As evidenced by that dwarf fighting Risen alongside humans). They are simply focused on the Destroyers/Primordus because they were the first to awaken, and the dwarves were the first to start the fight.

The main things the lore of a culture needs to allow are:
– Variety in body colors and shapes. So they won’t all look the same. Kodan, for example, are out, because all kodan are white polar bears.
- A main city hub for them. So they must be civilized and organized enough to accomplish that. That leaves out all the tribal and less organized races like hylek, jotun, grawl, quaggan…
– A broad variety of personalities so people can have choices in personal story.
– A great variety in occupations in their culture, so you can find all the profession and crafting disciplines among them.

- Gemstones, runes, paint, different types of rock, mineral veins.
- Thunderhead Keep, simple reason, they need to consolidate in order to fight the Destroyers/Dragons more effectively, so they go and do just that.
- The dwarves do have personality, because they have a focus and a task doesn’t mean they individually don’t have personality. Remember the quotes that said they no longer are individuals came from in game sources that could be incorrect, Ogden theorised on the spot for example, he hadn’t done research (I am going to guess he was wrong in regards to personality, because he himself has one when he is turned into stone, I don’t think he would be an exception. Jalis also retained overall command, if he lost his personality and all the dwarves were the same conscience, why would they need to communicate?) – Also take into account that when he did theorise what had happened to Jalis and his Vanguard they were in the middle of a battle, hence the very real possibility they simply -appeared- to be singleminded at the time, but are not when not fighting. Added to this, that was only Jalis and his Vanguard, the rest of the dwarven race followed later and stay at the exits to the surface, we do not know if their situation is different, and it’s possible that it is. The Tome of the Rubicon is not a complete version, this has also been stated.
- Dwarves can have this too. They need everything they have to fight the Destroyers/Dragons. There’s your reason for different professions, that isn’t stupid at all.

The old dwarves are gone, and the coffin is well nailed.

As I said also, I don’t believe that is the case.

The dwarves went from ‘extinct’ in GW1, as said by ArenaNet. Then throughout leveling in GW2 we discovered different pieces of lore that hinted the dwarves are about. This culminated in Ogden outright stating they are still fighting Primordus in Arah Explorable.

ArenaNet have backtracked and opened doors, not closed them.

Apologies for not answering your entire posts, but I simply feel the answers are back in the thread somewhere.

Elitez – I have read all your points, and I disagree intensely with them, I don’t understand what you are talking about or don’t think they have any relevance to the question of dwarves being made playable or not. I also feel my reasons counter-act yours. (Case in point – You say that them not being able to reproduce means they can’t be playable, I say being able to reproduce is not a requirement to be a playable race, nor is having large numbers needed, large numbers as in the millions, and small numbers being thousands)

Yes, the dwarves can realistically fade away after the dragons are defeated in the GW2 games, whilst still being a playable race, it’s not like the moment the last dragon bites the dust the dwarves just suddenly pop away. It would take ages for them to erode completely anyways. Hence the term ‘fade away’ not ‘pop out of existence’. Fading takes time, especially for stone.

Then think about the fact that Anet will not add dwarves as a playable race

You are saying it as fact, that is what you have -written-.

poe lyfe – The Stone Dwarves are a new idea in of themselves. As has been said in the thread. As is them being resurgent, no dwarf race in any fantasy setting has ever been resurgent. That in itself bucks the stereotype immensely. In fact, making them die out, or even having them in a state of dying out, caters to the stereotype ArenaNet said it wanted to avoid in regards to dwarves.

Then think about the fact that Anet will not add dwarves as a playable race just because one person refused to let anyone else on the forums think otherwise. You look like a desperate child who can’t stand to hear anyone disagree with him.

This right here is why I will barely take you seriously from this post onwards. You insulted me a grand total of about four times in that single post, calling me ‘pathetic’ and ‘blind’.

You also say your opinion like it is fact (You outright say it is ‘fact’ when you have nothing to support such a statement, you are not ArenaNet). I on the other hand do not state anything as fact, I give suggestions (As per the suggestion forums) that can then be used by ArenaNet. These suggestions are also backed up with predictions and then the reasoning and evidence behind those predictions. I am not stabbing in the dark or uttering one line “gief dwarves plx” I am saying “Please consider making dwarves playable, here, I will list the reasons why they could be.”. And I have listed both lore, mechanic and business suggestions/reasons.

I’m also not the only one who thinks dwarves should be playable and new lore updates open the doors for such.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/lore/6th-playable-race-what-s-your-top-3-pick/page/3#post1167313

Dwarves show up more often than not.

There have been more people than not supporting dwarves on this thread.

Do not insult me, or presume my eagerness to defend the idea constitutes me being childish. It does in fact mean I am passionate about the subject, and if it’s ever implemented ArenaNet pretty much have a customer for life.

You think the reasons I have listed are reasons why they should not be playable, I think otherwise, so again I ask you not to insult me personally. I will ignore the fact you’ve deliberately misconstrued my points and warped them to support your argument (you’ve also structured them is such a way as to make me appear unreasonable, which is quite cunning, if underhanded, but never mind). For example your round-a-bout reason for them not being playable in GW2 is because they won’t be around for GW3, which is quite frankly ridiculous.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/Dwarves-The-possibilities/first

1. Dwarves.
2. Tengu
3. Kodan/Largos.

:)

EliteZ.1682:

I really hope anet never get the idea of bring dwarves back as a playable race especailly if your ideas are anything to go by. Firstly, i’d like to say YES the amount of players needs to be near to endless if you’re going to have it as a playable race, How many players does GW2 have? Now if there are lets say only 500 dwarves left, how can over 500 players be one and still have npcs? Hmmm… this makes so much sense.

As for your idea of rebuilding more dwarves, please don’t make me laugh. They’re hell bent on fighting off the destroyers (Although i’d assume there has been a great loss in dwarves as the Destroyer of Life managed to roam surface for some time) Surely if the dwarves was causing so much trouble for primordus then his own champion the destroyer of life would have gone to fight them, not sit in tyria waiting to attack rata sum. Anyway, back to creating new dwarves. I think if they’re fighting the destroyers then where do they find the time to create these stone golems and somehow magically manage to give them the soul of a dwarve (Pretty sure even Asura can’t do this and they’re suppose to be able to do everything, but instead they’re lucky enough to use power stones – or did the dwarves suddenly become smarter then asura?) Then even if by some crazy chance they was able to forge stone golems, give them the spirit of a dwarve, how do they then get them to think like them? (oh and a stone golem would not be a dwarve so if this is how they get their numbers, i’m sure it’d be a race of golems not dwarves?) The stone dwarves have no feelings, personalities now which i’m sure would not also carry over into the created stone golem (dwarve) and therefore would not be the same.

Furthermore, if the dwarves have no personalities I think they’d be a very boring class to play. Also, without personalities, they would not care about how they look compared to other dwarves they’re using all they have to keep back the destroyers. I doubt they’d care too much if another dwarve looks the same as them and therefore would run to the surface to buy a new robe and as another person already stated armor has to be a factor when creating a new race. I’m not sure about you but I wouldn’t want to see a stone dwarve running around in a pretty red robe shooting fire from his rocky hands.

Finally, if we go with your idea how they can then turn to face all the elder dragons untill they are all destroyed what happens to them then? Do they suddenly stop being a playable race when they all fade away? Unless Anet intend to drag the elder dragons out into a GW3 I don’t really see how it could work out. Maybe they all get turned back into flesh, again this would be impossible if thousands of players are playing a race of stone dwarve and not flesh dwarve.

… I’ve already… Answered… All… Those… Points.

But for your benefit I’ll repeat myself.

Ogden quite clearly has personality. There are quite clearly dwarves that go around doing their own thing apart from their own kind (Aka, the one that fought alongside humans against Risen). What you point out, that they are focused on fighting the Dragons/Destroyers… That’s their new culture, of course it’s what the MAJORITY are going to be doing. The charr are focused on war, that is their culture, it doesn’t mean individual charr don’t have personalities, does it?

Bottom line. Dwarves have personality, they have just had no reason to exercise it at the moment, but they will do when the dwarves reach out to other races again. They’ve had 200 years, I am sure sentient stone is capable of re-developing a personality over that time.

As for Destroyers still appearing on the surface. Expecting the dwarves to, by themselves, keep the Depths completely water tight is stupid. And also another reason why they’d approach the other races and join their ranks: “Hey, we can’t hold the Destroyers off by ourselves anymore, come help us.”

From my first post:

“The dwarves may not have a future beyond the Elder Dragon threat, but seeing as they are so intimately tied story-wise to the Dragons, it’s not that out of place (They fought all of them, not just Primordus, in history). And isn’t the Elder Dragon threat the whole point of GW2 and its potential expansions? So the dwarves do still fit in and they can still eventually fade away once the dragons are done. It would be the perfect bitter sweet ending for them. Go out in a final blaze of glory fighting all the Elder Dragons alongside the other races of the world, as they did in ages past, though naturally the option for them to simply live on in peace is also there.”

Which answers your ‘dwarves dying out’. They can still die out after the dragon’s are defeated. GW3 is a long way away or non-existant, so I think you bringing it up is you scraping the bottom of the barrel for reasons.

All your points have been refuted or otherwise acknowledged and answered in other posts, you are simply repeating what others before you have said.

The dwarves have been ‘missing’ for two-hundred years. Who’s to say necessity has not forced them to adapt and create a new culture and way of living completely revolving around fighting dragons – Which, I shouldn’t need to point out, would be a huge boon to the current races, as their economies and cultures, with the exception of sylvari, are not orientated to specifically fighting dragons.

And failing that, the problems you have pointed out are perfect for the personal story of the dwarven character – Solving these problems.

Thunderhead Keep is in ruins.
- Dwarves no longer have a society. They just go around fighting destroyers. Only Ogden stays behind to tell the tale.
- A source of unlimited numbers is a requirement for a playable race, because you’ll be making countless creatures that belong to that race. The number of dwarves is fixed. No more can be than those wo already are. Only less and less while they are destroyed by dredge and destroyers. You can’t suddenly have dwarves popping all over the place as if they grew out of the rocks.
- They can’t be creative about that. They turned into stone. Clothes and all. What are you supposed to do? Paint all over them as if they were some Roman fresco? That’s won’t do, it’ll be just silly.

- And? There’s this thing called rebuilding. Building is something dwarves are good at.

- A source of unlimited numbers is not a requirement for a playable race, nor is having low numbers a bar on being a playable race. Darkspear Trolls in World of Warcraft were one tiny tribe, they were playable. The -entire race- was turned to stone. An entire race, civilians and all. Considering dwarves were one of the most populous races during the GW1 era that is a number of -at least- a million. Even considering constant warfare there should still be a fair few left, what with extra resilience factored in.

Also, I quote.

“They act as guardians of the Depths of Tyria, fighting off the minions of Primordus and denying them passage to the surface. As such, they are hardly ever seen.”

Only a small number of dwarves actually forged into the Depths, the rest stayed at the exits to the surface to guard it against the Destroyers, they’re not on a crusade, they’re defending. And as said, they are hardly ever seen – So who are we to say they don’t have the numbers to classify being a playable race, even without a way to replenish their numbers which -could- be plausibly explained.

- You just gave another example of how they could be creative. An attempt by stone dwarves to individualise themselves with paint, engraved runes and gemstones? Yes. That is called being creative. Thanks for the suggestion!

Tengu would be fantastic candidates at some point, agreed!

Because from the way you posted I assumed you were attacking the idea, and naturally, being a fan of the idea I jumped to defend it.

(And also because it keeps the thread at the top of the forums, but we’ll keep that quiet)

I was not aware the entire point of this conversation was to ‘catch me with my pants down’.

I apologise, I suppose? I’m not sure what for. But I do.

You think dwarves can be playable so long as certain criteria is met – I am aware of this and have said how that criteria could be met. End of discussion, really.

… Not quite. I replied to that, evidently you didn’t see it.

I must also stress that the entire point of them coming back in a Primordus expansion is to fight Primordus. And once he is defeated in that expansion they can be freed of that purpose and turn on the other Elder Dragons as a race. (The playable character would be an exception, like the dwarf shown to be fighting Zhaitan’s forces in the artwork, to justify him/her/it going about leveling in older zones).

‘Kitten kid’?

‘Nerd raging’?

What? I don’t even.

Your alternate view point is ‘no dwarves shouldn’t be playable’ my idea is that they should, I literally cannot compromise or consider that viewpoint because it doesn’t compute with my own in any way.

I am backing up my opinion with many different points whilst you are only focusing on one point and implying that this one reason is why they shouldn’t be made a playable race. This type of narrow-minded arguing is coming from you, not me.

And what’s this about Florida? I’m from the United Kingdom. We have a TARDIS.

That still does not state that stone dwarves age as organic dwarves do. And weathering takes far longer than 200 years.

You continue to ignore the points of my previous posts. I have already -said- that the Tome of Rubicon is not a complete history, and has been copied and re-written. This means that there is room for it to be added that all the Elder Dragons are to be fought by the dwarves because they have already done so in past ages. They’ve only been focused on Primordus because he was the first one to show himself to them.

Where exactly does it state that as stone dwarves they age like they would if they were organic?

They don’t need to reproduce when they don’t die of old age and can be fixed, can they? Naturally there’d be a point where they simply cannot be fixed, but I doubt this would happen to every single stone dwarf, and when it’s an entire race we’re talking about, which, if we go by medieval-ish numbers is still in the millions, it’s not really that outlandish for there to be enough about to allow them to be a playable race. (I’ve long held the opinion numbers don’t actually matter for becoming playable anyways).

That is when you first meet him. In Arah Explorable he outright says “The rest of the dwarves are fighting Primordus.”

You came up with a different point, rather than countering the ones in my post, so by that I must assume that you cannot actually counter them!