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There’s been a lot of talk about population balance, but so far it’s been based on individuals moving between servers. This is wvw; individual contributions don’t matter as much as this discussion has been implying.
It’s not simply individuals moving to servers: it’s GUILDS moving servers. When guilds look to jump servers they look at a few key factors such as chances of the new server winning, queue times, and how influential their guild will be on the new server.
Second: Commanders. Good guilds have good commanders, and commanders (good or bad, with or without a guild) have more impact than groups of uncoordinated pugs. I’ve seen good commanders with a small guild or no guild be effective at taking and holding objectives than some large guilds. However, serious wvw guilds tend to grab the good commanders (but not always).
Guilds > Commanders > masses of individuals.
In the spirit of balancing servers is there a way to a) identify the influential wvw guild and b) entice them over to a server that needs help?
Can the same be done for commanders?
This is partially true but doesn’t reflect the issue as a whole.
You are 100% right in that the issue is not individuals, but rather WvW guilds transferring over to these servers.
When someone ask which top tier server has the best nighttime/early morning coverage and they hear it is split between BG or JQ, that’s where these ‘Oceanic’ guilds move to.
Later in the evening and early into the morning commanders aren’t as important because they just don’t run up against any real organized resistance. Your guild can transfer, establish an overnight commander, and start building a reputation or you can just do what a lot of these night time do as is, just run as a guild on mumble server and not worry about commanders as much.
Right now, at 11:30am on the East Coast, you can see just how skewed the scores are from overnight.
JQ is just coming down from their +500 lead, dropped to about +450.
BG is sitting at 370.
Db, +355.
SBI, +420.
Every night these servers run unopposed, they accumulate points that artificially inflate their score. Those high scores attract the WvW guilds, be they day or night guilds.
These servers tend to look better than they actually are because of it so guilds flock there and it just continues to create these huge gaps.
The only way to entice commanders to leave and take their guilds with them is to prevent them from being able to continue to get these easy wins. The only way to do that is to lock them out of WvW.
They aren’t better than your average players, they don’t deserve a carrot on a stick to get them to leave.
It is harsh, but it’s just a reality. They’re winning a numbers game, not a strategy game.
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The problem we are having now is all of these Oceanic players are flocking to a single server and ruining WvW for everyone else.
Do you even read your own comments?
Now I am an oceanic player playing on an underpopulated server at my timezone (Borlis pass) but why is it bad for players wanting to play with people in their own timezone?
It’s not our fault there will never be servers for us… We are the minority, so you are saying we can’t play unless we are all spread evenly across every server?
Your question really doesn’t make sense. Of course I read my own comments. I’m going to guess that was an attempt to imply something I wrote was completely outlandish.
I don’t think anything I wrote was.
What you are suggesting, all Oceanic players gathering on one server to ‘WvW’, does not result in competitive WvW.
WvW is supposed to be about competition. Implying that because you are a minority and you all want to stick together, the behavior is acceptable is a joke. You are just making excuses to keep those easy wins.
The fact of the matter is, during the day there is coverage for NA players. The match ups are fair and the points reflect that. At night, you can see which servers have Oceanic players and which don’t.
Oceanic players aren’t ‘good’ at WvW. They have no competition. If winning is what you consider both ‘playing’ and ‘fun’, I can see why you’d be opposed to spreading out the Oceanic players.
If you actually want fair and competitive play, you know, compete against other Oceanic players, then population needs to spread out.
Dynamic queues, queues that allow more players in when the match ups are even, won’t prevent Oceanic players for WvWing against eachother once the population spreads out.
You guys will be able to play against eachother just fine.
I’m opposed to introducing hard population caps or making points earned at night completely meaningless. I want Oceanic players contributions to be meaningful. Right now they aren’t though. Right now you’ve got servers that have night time coverage playing against servers that don’t and the result is completely lopsided scores.
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Maybe if ANET offered 500 gold for transfers to lower populated servers, this would counter the effects of BG etc.
…and you should only be able to join a server that is below a certain threshold in your timezone. You perhaps have to select a timezone to enjoy buffs in this period. hmmm.
Well, I think the server transfers should be free for starters because it was their original system that encouraged this abuse indirectly and it is hurting the majority of the serverbase in WvW.
Boredom + queues haven’t made T1 destack yet. Will the population really take care of itself?
Yeah. I’m lowballing numbers because scope ruins this, but speaking in small terms.
Let’s say:
Standard queue: 100
Blue: 100
Red: 50
Green: 65
Everytime someone from the 100 block leaves, another person takes their place. People are leaving fairly often. Now, let’s say we use a dynamic queue system based off of those numbers.
Blue: 60
Red: 50
Green: 60
Until red gets 60 players, that queue isn’t going to allow in a wave of ten more people and it will just continue to fill in the difference.
That’s forty more people added onto the queue plus however many people were already waiting.
Eventually, if those people actually care about WvW rather than just steamrolling people will leave the server and transfer to either Red or Green.
The people who stay on Blue are going to find that their nighttime monopoly wasn’t as great as they originally thought.
there is no way to make dynamic queues work without ruining the game for many players.
the issue comes down to timezones. you get a NA server vs an Oceanic server and now neither of them can play because their enemy can’t lift the queue cap for their time zone.
This is simply not true.
For starters, there is no such thing as an Oceanic server in higher tier WvW. That is just a term people have been throwing around to keep the monopoly they have on nighttime WvW.
The problem we are having now is all of these Oceanic players are flocking to a single server and ruining WvW for everyone else. Regardless of how hard you work during the day, some of these servers have just as many people present during the ‘downtime’ hours as they do during their peak.
We aren’t taking away a fair and balanced experience from them. Using a current match up, JQ isn’t running into nighttime resistance with their nighttime team. They are steamrolling TC and SoS.
A dynamic queue system will give all Oceanic players a chance to move to a less populated server within their existing tier and it would help to spread out the WvW population from tier to tier.
The issue is not ‘timezones.’ It is overpopulation of specific servers in the tier groups. If there are nine servers, and only three of them have a huge Oceanic population, that’s a problem. Dynamic queues fix that.
Oh! My nighttime queue is horrible when playing against Mag and SoS. I know! Better transfer off to one of those.
Buffs aren’t going to fix this, Anet needs to start encouraging the nighttime players to spread out to different servers.
There is no solution to this issue that won’t involve people transferring. With a dynamic queue system, you don’t limit based on an arbitrary number, you limit based on an fair and even match up.
After a week of not being able to get into WvW Oceanic players will have to move if they want to keep WvWing. When that happens, the population issues will fix themselves.
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lowering the map cap in the first step towards balance match up.
it is just that ANET is afraid to experiment with that, even after so many of their previous experiments failed anyway.
This does not solve population issues. Lowering the map cap just makes for infinite queues.
Dynamic queues are the way to go, people have already been saying it in this thread. People who are still crying for lowered population caps per map need to start thinking outside the box and about other people.
You need a dynamic queue system that lifts and lowers the cap based on population, not one that locks people out from the get go.
The solution is really simple.
Make points in your own personal Borderlands more valuable to your server.
Cap the amount of people that can be in any borderlands to a specificnumber, we’ll go with 50. When there are fifty of all three servers present in the borderland, increase the number by ten. The number will only go up if all three servers are ‘even.’
Keep EBG just the way it is.
This will force more competitive, strategic play into the Borderlands. You can’t just focus on your own Borderland, you also have to knock out your enemies too to keep them from gaining too many points, but you also need a force in to protect yours.
EBG can stay exactly as it is. We can have one server with two groups running around ruining the other servers day, but while they’re doing that, the Borderland teams will be doing all the buff getting and point giving.
This is a bonus to the strategic, smart, even, non-zerg play. If y ou can’t roll over and get all the buffs because you have greater numbers, the buff you give your server (Even if they are outmanned in EBG) will be more meaningful.
In the end, server population will balance itself out. If you’re tired of sitting in queue because your server is massively overpopulated, you’ll transfer off of Jade Quarry and Blackgate onto SoR, TC, Mag, or SoS.
I mean, honestly, look at these numbers.
Five in the morning on the East Coast, Jade Quarry has +500 points. Blackgate has +445. Fort Aspen has +565.
I think it is pretty obvious where the problems in PvP lie.
If we capped population, I don’t know, maybe all these night people on those servers would spread out to other servers.
And maybe we’ll actually have some night time WvW instead of waking up the next day to nearly the entire map being flipped to one servers side.
What we have right now isn’t PvP. If you are worried that less people can play because there aren’t enough people on other servers, then you’re focused on the wrong issue.
If people on server A are being locked out because people on server B and C don’t have the numbers to keep up with them, that is a problem. A limit that raises itself based on attendance is the best way to accomplish ‘even’ and ‘fair’ game play. Right now, from the examples I’ve given, these match ups are not even or fair.
You don’t need buffs or bandaids to fix this. You need to open up free server transfers to less populated servers from more populated servers. That’ll solve your problem.
If people refuse to transfer that is on them. You tried. You can’t keep things the way they are though with these insane leads night teams are gaining. Look at the scores, the game is just not fun. A server can hold its own during the day then lose out entirely at night.
You might think server caps are intrusive but the reality is, without them you won’t have PvP. You’ll have what we have now.
Edit: Forgot Stormbluff Isle. +445.
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I disagree. This community shouted anyone down when the unfairness of permastealth was raised. It cannot think to the good of the game, rather only advocate for its narrow self interests. If I were Anet , I would use this forum’s input only as fact checking. If were up to many in this community the glaring op issues would never be touched.
Can you provide links to these discussions you speak of, where the majority of people contributing were supporting permastealth? At most, I see people tell those complaining about permastealth to “l2p,” but it’s pretty unanimous that it’s a cheap tactic whether you can counter it or not.
Also, which “glaring op issues” are being ignored by the community?
It’s quite humorous to see so many frequent posters suddenly emerge from the woodwork to admit that permastealth is an exploit of mechanics, when only a few months ago they all chanted that its impossible. Indeed, humorous.
Which op issues? The ones nerfed over the last year.
I think you misunderstood. I don’t think anyone ever said ‘Permastealth’ wasn’t an exploit of mechanics. I think they said the concept of Permastealth wasn’t game breaking.
As it turns out, remaining in stealth permanently after the reveal change (Reveal upon dealing damage to an enemy) is a great way to deal absolutely no damage.
The person you quoted represents the player base that has used this issue, ‘permastealth’ to distract for legitimate issues that the Thief profession actually has. We don’t care about a couple of Dagger/Pistol thieves that sit in WvW taunting zergs. They die, usually pretty quick once someone locks them down.
The fact that so many people have commented that the behavior itself isn’t damaging, that the thief doesn’t actually manage to kill you, just that it takes a while to get a fix, lock them down, and kill them (Usually very quickly) shows just how little impact this ‘exploit’ had on the game.
Permastealth is not an issue that warrants attention. It doesn’t kill the game. In fact, considering it took them this long to address it and how few people actually use that spec in sPvP pretty much shows how little impact it actually had on the game as a whole.
The amount of attention it was getting because people really wanted an easy kill but couldn’t get it because that darn thief just kept hopping around is what was astounding.
EDIT: I should say! Removing ‘permastealth’ for the Dagger/Pistol equation will give them a chance to take a look at the weapon layout (Right along side Dagger/Dagger) and look for ways to improve it.
The fact that it took them so long to make this change and the fact that they’ve been pulling numbers and statistics from it has been more damaging to the thief class than it has been to players.
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Uncatchable is great if you’re running a condition spec and you’ve got bleeds and torment up on your opponent.
Condition builds are great because you only have to focus on condition + precision in some cases for extra bleed effects, so you can pour the rest of your armor stats/traits into surviability.
What is good for Condition Thief != What is good for Thief profession.
Have you considered reducing the inits cost of Cloak and Dagger while the reveal buff is on a thief? The Mug >> CD >> Backstab change was needed but it was only a problem because you could steal right as the Cloak and Dagger went off. It all reality, Cloak and Dagger has a cast time and a small hit box.
Our special thing was initiative and the ability to ‘spam’ abilities till it ran out. The reveal debuff changed that. Cloak and Daggers is expensive because of its damage and effects, but there is no reason we should be paying full price when the ability is only operating at 50%.
Four seconds of auto attack isn’t ‘terrible’ by any stretch of the imagination, but with our health pools and armor we’re prone while that debuff is ticking down. It isn’t like we stop taking damage while we’re stealthed and we’re significantly easier to damage while we aren’t. We also deal significantly less damage.
All these changes to our dodging and our stealth without addressing the issue of why we dodge and stealth so much and rely on these silly gimmicks keeps me from sPvPing on my thief.
Some of the changes were needed, while others were overkill. This sword/dagger sPvP spec is just another example of Thieves trying to make due with the mixed messages you are sending us.
Health/Toughness trees are tied to stealth and dodging. You get buffs while in stealth and from dodging. Your dual skills all center around dodging! But now you feel like we do that too much.
Promoting a skill that shadowsteps us on disable and disorients us just as much as it does our opponent is not a solution.
And now as one of the above posters mentioned, saying uncatchable is a good trait. Do you want us in fights or running away? We want to be in fights. We want to feel like we don’t have to rely on silly gimmicks to survive, but if that goes against your design philosophy, that’s fine.
Just enough with the mixed messages already.
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That was awesome. I can’t personally say I’ve ever ran in to 5 bad mesmers, all at the same time, on Tier 1. They literally all just exploded, lol.
oh man tier 1 has HORRENDOUS 1 v 1 players in general. prolly some good ones in there but last time i fought against t1 it was JQ and BG and they were just horrible lol. many others in my server said the same. i mean taking out legends and generals in seconds…..prolly just used to zerging bc you cant get awawy from it in t1 i imagine. just a guess tho. not saying there ALL bad just most :P that week i didnt lose even a single match of 1 v 1 or 1 v 2. sickness
If you ever make it back to t1, go to sor bg, find my asura burst s/d ele from blackgate and lets see if you can even come close to win a 1v1 against me.
Dueling’ll be out soon enough. Just start making a list.
Anet could take a hint from Blizzard when it comes to balancing classes though.
NO. Blizzard tried to balance the classes so much that each clkitten up pretty much the same. Rouges lost stealth, pally’s lost summons and reduced healing, mages were turned into just dps machines, and ranger pet’s were nerfed so that they were basically worthless.
Why would ANET take a hint from a failing MMO?
While pretty much everything in this post is wrong, I understand this isn’t WoW so I won’t nitpick.
I’ve been playing GW2 for about 3 weeks – I rolled a Thief main and I absolutely love it. I feel like ANet did a wonderful job in terms of class balance. While Thieves are definitely squishier than Heavy classes (which is to be expected, amirite), you have leeway with your build in that you can take that squishiness and roll with it, just adding more DPS, OR you can counteract that squishiness with some points in Shadow/Acro depending on your playstyle.
From what I’ve seen so far – aside from Rangers – every class has its niche and is viable in all aspects of the game. WvW solo or zerg, sPvP, even PvE – every class has multiple roles it can fill in any situation, it just depends on how you build your character. So it comes down to that: your build, your skill level, your opponent, and your playstyle. You can’t blame your losses on ANet’s balancing techniques or recent patches.
I’ve been playing for 3 weeks and I consistently win 1v1s and some 2v1s in sPvP and WvW. You have no excuse. Btw I’m P/P + SB.
Play for longer and you will realize Thieves are always at an advantage due to stealth and other things. They only fall apart in Zerging and tpvp (subjetively).
Dear lord, get out of this thread. Your input is absolutely worthless.
Against a single target, yes.
You are so glass it isn’t even funny. I didn’t even know HP pools came that low.
If you want to have no issues surviving, do what Dual did and invest in PP/SB. You won’t be dying much, but you also won’t be contributing as much damage as you could be to a fight. Quam pointed out that he doesn’t have an issue staying alive, but if you watched his videoes on fractals, you’ll see he favors the shortbow in a lot of fights to avoid taking damage while the naturally higher health/plate wearers do whatever they want. Again, shortbow is important if you don’t want to take a lot of damage but you’ll be hurting your damage quite a bit especially if you need to pull it out on a boss fight.
Anet needs to separate the groups, so they can do a PvE balance. They need to make dungeons attractive for more than just gold farming. They need to do something with the world bosses so that it is more than just a lagged-out stand and shoot for 2 minutes then move to the next boss. They need to do a lot. But to even think about doing what the players think they need to do, they need to listen to them. And it seems the only ones they hear right now are the PvP/WvW players. I’ve heard a few players in PvE talk about this. And we all agree.
Gee, and here I thought that already separated into teams with different purposes. I appreciate your insight about this though, what titles have you shipped?
Oh, and to answer your question, no, they aren’t.
A good majority of the last Living Story updates have almost completely revolved around PvE. Whatever your definition of PvE is aside, temporary content that is available for a limited time is still “PvE.”
i tried sb for all its worth yesterday in wvw again.. (and i made a dreamer ages ago bc i LOVE shortbow as it was FAIR and BALANCED even though anet is dum dums :P) but i could NOT make it work. just too short ranged to be able to say “yep i need that on my 2ndary weapon” . i mean yeah you can use it in 3 v 3 or less but thats not common enough to say this is worth taking. that range helped keep larger groups at bay. anet you fail. people are quitting :/ im close
People are always quitting over changes. It is a cute threat but so few people actually follow through with it.
This change is so game breaking I haven’t even noticed it.
If you’re role playing an exploiter, are you really exploiting?
I think roleplayers call that god modeing/modding. :V
Gasp. He speaks our language.
1… mag is always outnumbered..no madder what….
I laughed.
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Yea my mouse broke like a month ago, I’ve been using a ball mouse because im to lazy to get a new one.
… Where did you find it? At a CompUSA?
TCBL on reset was awesome facing NAGA,EP,ESP,NOPE. Too bad SoS was a no show on that borderland(except for the vultures that took our east side camps instead of putting some pressure on their west side but whatever), which allowed for TC to focus solely on Mag.
Totally legitimate strategy. (The rest of this post is not aimed at you, sir.)
I’m actually surprised I don’t see people doing this more often to be honest. I hated when it was done to TC in the early days of yesterwheneveritwasdonetouslast but it is a completely legitimate strategy. The only draw back is, whenever BG was done taking our crap from us, they’d just take everything that the other server took from us too.
I miss running with Zud, I haven’t seen him in ages. His hit and run tactics were absolutely amazing when we were outmatched whether due to numbers, skill, or both. A lot of commanders would kill supplies by knocking out the supply camps then run off and do whatever, but not Zud. That little Asura had a hunchback from carrying around so much siege.
He would cause so much confusion so quick and I used to imagine the other server’s watching the map and just absolutely flipping out when their blue blips started flickering green. It didn’t matter if we had a full zerg or ten people. He always made it work.
The man knew how to adapt to a situation, knew which towers to take, when to take them, and where to apply the pressure.
Someone said it earlier in this thread. This is a learning experience. We had a phase where we had to learn to adapt and adjust.
Some excuses are legitimate. Some aren’t. My friend spent all night telling me she couldn’t believe we kept winning so many engagements when we were completely outnumbered, but our commanders are amazing, and the players on our server are amazing. Don’t insult them and insult the rest of us by implying the only reason we are winning is because of numbers.
Let’s keep bad blood out of this thread and focus on the greatness that is all of our servers and not drag down the community.
Shadow return is still usable while stunned. You can park it 1200 range away and use it to vacate the premises and wait out the stun in safety.
In theory perhaps, in actual combat you’ll never get that range and what you get is insufficient. Waiting out doesn’t work so well as you’re still targeted and any skill that has slightly more then melee range will still hit.
His plan is sound. It just means being more mindful and mobile. It won’t work with the results you’d want 100% of the time, but it is still a lot better than nothing if you choose not to pick up Shadowstep.
Unlike most people on these forums I can see the logic behind the cluster bomb range nerf,
Would you mind elaborating on that?
I already commented this in another thread.
Ranger’s short bow is also now 900 range. Same weapon, same range. Sounds logical. I know rangers have long bow as well, but thief has better mobility. And I would still argue that thief’s shortbow is better than ranger’s longbow in most circumstances (I got both level 80 ranger and thief).
This is a terrible argument. You are comparing them because they are the same weapon? Really? Grenade has 1500 range and more conditions, why wasn’t that brought down to 900? You know to compensate for nerfing ranger SB. The same could go for necro staff, but at 1200 range.
Cluster Bomb is good damage, but it does not give as much as the above weapon sets that I just stated. What you are arguing makes no sense. If they are going to balance weapons, balance them within the class, not like this.
No, it is actually a 100% legit argument. Shortbow skills for the thief have been normalized to have a maximum range of 900. They have been ‘balanced within the class’ so to speak.
Just checking it.
Seems like people are still complaining about thieves being powerful and this tactic being counterable. It isn’t counterable, your profession is fine, this thread is about the mechanic discussed in the original post.
Though, this being a perk and profession advantage has gotten me thinking.
I remember when I found out a Thief could equip a dagger in his offhand and then use cloak and dagger to stealth himself. He wouldn’t get the reveal time if he didn’t attack anyone, so the thief would wait for the timer to run out and then do it again! Pretty cool right? If he invested 25 points into the Shadow Arts tree he could use this tactic to put might on himself everytime he restealthed and if he went to 30 points he could even heal slowly while stealthed!
I thought this was one of the most shameful tactics I’d come across on the Thief forums. I mean, there were some legit arguments to be had. You could still attack the thief while he was stealth, which was 100% true. If you hit him with some form of CC it could prevent him form being able to get into melee range to get another cloak and dagger off. 100% true too! If he went down this tactic was completely useless. Also 100% true!
But even after hearing the arguments? I still thought it was cheesy. Sure, it would take forever for him to actually kill someone and you had to really not be paying attention to not realize you were being attacked, but nope, still cheesy as hell.
After reading this topic though, I can see this was just a profession perk, an advantage special to Thieves that shouldn’t have been taken away. This whole time I thought it was an abuse of game mechanics, but it was really wasn’t.
I feel like I’m going to have to put this on every single page so people stop repeating bad information.
As stated previously and then several times throughout this thread, under normal circumstances it is not possible to immobilize an Elementalist before they activate Vapor Form.
1) Upon being downed, preexisting conditions fall off your character.
2) There is a time between being downed and gaining access to your downed state where you do not take damage and conditions cannot be applied.
3) Vapor form is available IMMEDIATELY meaning an Elementalist need only spam 2 the moment they go down to avoid being immobilized. The only reason an Elementalist would be immobilized is if they were slow on pressing 2. Relying on an Elementalist to be bad at their class is not a counter to a problem
Now, based off of what you’ve read in this thread by actual Elementalist, you would think there was a cool down on Vapor Form before it was activated giving you time to prepare immobilization, but there isn’t. If your goal is to immediately Vapor Form upon death to get back into a portal, you can do so without risk of being immobilized.
People continue to turn this into something it is not. Surviability is not fighting a group of people outside of your keep with no fear of dying because once you are downed you can risk free Vapor Form back into your keep and heal up. That treads the line of abusing game mechanics.
Once again, because apparently saying this several times a page isn’t enough I’m going to repeat myself in the same post: This thread is about an Elementalist’s ability to fight outside of friendly owned buildings with portals, die in front of them, and flee to safety due to Vapor Form becoming active immediately as it occupies the 2 slot on the downed skill bar.
And guys, seriously. If you’re speccing glass cannon in WvW or sPvP don’t come into a thread that has nothing to do with surviability and complain about dying a lot. I could go to any forum and listen to a bunch of players whine about how they spec glass cannon but take lots of damage and how unfair it is.
I can only go to the Elementalist forum to talk about Vapor Form and portals.
There is a counter to this. There is no counter for stealth. How is this broken and stealth is not when this has a simple counter but stealth can’t be stopped by anything except for a trap that takes 5 seconds to setup and 10 supplies? If this gets changed then I want stealth changed so that it can only be used outside of combat. Because this ability has the potential for a lot of abuse too. A few thieves COULD continue to stealth a large group of people and wipe out an entire zerg while they all swing blindly at a bunch of invisible people. See how that works? I can make kittened exaggerated examples that would never happen either.
Well, except all of your examples are completely wrong and scream a lack of understanding of how the game and its mechanics work.
If you cant immobilize an ele after he is downed and before he can vapor form you are just bad. End of discussion. I know for a fact it can be done because I have done it many times with my guardian. As soon as I drop them I hit Chains of Light, they vapor form, float in place without moving, then drop and I spike them. You are just a bad thief who refuses to accept the advice we have given you on how to counter this and instead try to cry for nerfs rather than actually take the advice we have given you on how to stop this. So quit whining and L2P. You easymode thieves just want everything handed to you don’t you?
We’ve already established that it is impossible to do given that Vapor Form becomes active immediately after conditions are cleared. The only time you will catch an Elementalist with an immobilize before it Vapor Forms is if the Elementalsit is bad and doesn’t hit 2 right away.
Please educate yourself on how your profession and the game works before dropping into discussions with incorrect information and idiotic personal attacks.
For an Elementalist, once you go down you get a get out of jail free card.
In this specific situation, sure. If you’re more than three seconds away from a keep or your zerg, though, you’re definitely dead as soon as you go down, whereas most other professions have decent enough 1s and 3s that they can hope to rally.
Which is why I think they should be unable to pass through portals while downed. No one has suggested the removal of Vapor Form, a cut in its duration, or anything like that. The only thing being suggested is you be unable to pass through portals with it.
That isn’t enough evidence that maybe Vapor Form shouldn’t be usable to pass through portals?
It isn’t because you still haven’t shown that this ability is excessively strong.
Like for example, every Necro can survive falls of any height by swapping to Death Shroud before hitting the ground. It’s a cool trick they can pull that no one else can. Every other profession can trait to allow themselves to survive most falls, but every Necro can potentially survive any fall in the game.
Just because an edge is fairly unique doesn’t automatically make it overpowered. You have to demonstrate that this is actually problematic and you’ve haven’t done that. You’re focusing all your efforts on arguing that this is unique and skimping on the part when you explain why the unique trick is bad.
At the cost of their Death Shroud they can, sure.
Again, all the Elementalist had to do was die and press 2. That is where I see the difference.
Edit: I’ve been avoiding going into larger scale examples, for instance more than one Elementalist, or groups utilizing and abusing an unkillable Elementalist so that we can avoid the turn we’ve taken of Well that only works on a tuesday if Venus is facing west in the sky and the moon and Saturn are properly aligned in hopes that enough reasonable people would come along and realize that maybe since they are the only ones who can actually do this while downed, it should be changed.
A few have, and a few like yourself have tried to argue against changing it. There is really no reason to theorycraft it. I’m sure you or someone else who read this thread thought of a least ten examples I could have given you that would be a huge abuse of this mechanic and already thought up counter arguments for them.
(edited by Yuujin.1067)
This is exactly what I mean. It is absolutely a waste of time to try to argue over on situation where this is better. However, I’d like to thank you for making my point for me.
Excuse me, what point were you trying to make? That there are alternate tactics that are so obviously superior to Vapor-Form trolling that there’s no point in arguing about it?
In the situation of an arrow cart, you’ve made my point for me. You need to have the blueprint and three people with 10 supplies or two people with 15 a piece of complete it. In a situation where these conditions are not met, the aforementioned tactic is 100% more effective.
Or one person with 10 supply and 20 in the tower. If the tower has no supply, no single person is going to be able to hold it against a zerg for any appreciable amount of time regardless of tactics.
In your third example, you pointed out that he could jump up on the wall. This cheesy tactic actually extends to that as well. For any other profession being pulled off the wall and thrown into your downstate is a death sentence. For an Elementalist, they can Vapor Form through their portal back to safety.
Guardians and Engineers are actually pretty fine with that sort of thing as well. Even Thieves can do this with stealth (for example, their falling damage trait stealths them when they fall, making it pretty darn easy to Infiltrator’s Arrow back to the portal and roll through). Mesmers have it about 50/50, depending on how many people are there. My ranger has little trouble getting to safety most of the time.
Of course, you could also avoid the danger of pulls entirely by simply standing behind the lip.
I’m not saying this isn’t a strength that Eles have. I’m saying it’s not an overwhelming advantage.
All completely conditional, where as to execute Vapor Form strategies you need only be an Elementalist in a downed state. That’s my point. If there was some sort of weapon layout, utility, or event a trait that was necessary to pull this off, it wouldn’t be so easily exploitable, but it is available to everyone immediately upon dying.
In point three, it really comes down to the right utility. If a warrior and engineer aren’t built for surviability, they have to pop their invulnerability utility and make it back to the portal. If a Thief is specced with the fall releases blinding powder, then they can stealth the whole way back to a portal. Stealth however does not nullify damage. If you do not have the utility to pull it off or the traits however, once you go down you are dead.
For an Elementalist, once you go down you get a get out of jail free card.
I’m not sure why we’re arguing this though. You’ve acknowledged other classes have to have the right utility and traits to pull this tactic off but Elementalist just need to die to make it back inside safely.
That isn’t enough evidence that maybe Vapor Form shouldn’t be usable to pass through portals?
I already provided you with an example of how you can abuse this tactic with success.
You provided an example of use of this tactic. What you haven’t done is show why this tactic is particularly superior to other tactics available more widely in similar situations, not why this tactic is “abuse.”
1) An AC has to be available.
2) AEing through the wall is effective in some but not all situations.
3) Members of the attacking force will detarget the gate and attempt to DPS you which pulls damage off the gate when you are physically present. If you are hiding behind the gate, that won’t happen so DPS on the gate won’t be slowed.1) Anyone can carry an AC blueprint and it only takes 30 supply, which a keep will have if it’s defensible at all. That AC will hit substantially harder than the Ele’s spells could and it’ll hit way more people in a much larger AoE too. It’s also consistent DPS, whereas an Ele relying on Vapor Form for safety usually has to then res himself.
2) Vapor-Form-trolling is also effective in some but not all situations. That Ele can troll as hard as he wants, but he’s still not going to push off a zerg all by himself. Meanwhile, if he’d equipped a staff and thrown stuff at the inside of the door or from the wall, he would’ve tossed out a lot more damage.
3) Yup, and you can do this too by hopping up onto the wall. Ele’s are hardly the only profession who can present themselves as an alternate target. Popping out of the tower isn’t even necessarily going to distract too many people since you’ll still be getting splashed by AoEs targeted on the gate.
Now, as I said earlier, I think way too much of the Ele’s downed-state power budget is in their #2. Their #1 straight-up sucks and most other professions can make use of their #3 spell to actually rally on occasion, but not the Ele. I wouldn’t mind seeing some nerfs on Vapor Form if #s 1 and 3 were made less than totally useless. But at the moment, they can’t stand straight nerfs or they’ll just never ever rally once downed in any situations.
This is exactly what I mean. It is absolutely a waste of time to try to argue over on situation where this is better. However, I’d like to thank you for making my point for me.
In the situation of an arrow cart, you’ve made my point for me. You need to have the blueprint and three people with 10 supplies or two people with 15 a piece of complete it. In a situation where these conditions are not met, the aforementioned tactic is 100% more effective.
In your third example, you pointed out that he could jump up on the wall. This cheesy tactic actually extends to that as well. For any other profession being pulled off the wall and thrown into your downstate is a death sentence. For an Elementalist, they can Vapor Form through their portal back to safety.
Before someone points out that they have to be close to the portal so if they are positioned some place else it won’t work, I just want to point out that you don’t ignore issues like these because the lowest common denominator does not know how to properly abuse it, you address issues like these because skilled players can make the most of them.
It must be pretty game changing! People are defending it like it is a core Elementalist mechanic!
I find this argument unconvincing. People will talk about any old thing, doesn’t mean it’s important. So, give me a better argument.
I already provided you with an example of how you can abuse this tactic with success. You decided to discredit it. There is no example I can give you that is going to make you go “Oh, okay, I see your point” so it’s a waste of time. I can answer a few of your questions though.
1) An AC has to be available.
2) AEing through the wall is effective in some but not all situations.
3) Members of the attacking force will detarget the gate and attempt to DPS you which pulls damage off the gate when you are physically present. If you are hiding behind the gate, that won’t happen so DPS on the gate won’t be slowed.
There is no skill involved in hitting Vapor Form and running through a portal yet people are expected to have to save and time their immoblizes or coordinate with people who have them to prevent elementalist from using this skill less, cheesy tactic.
I dont see what is so hard about doing this. Timing your skills to your best advantage seems pretty reasonable, unless you just want mindlessly attack and expect to roflstomp everyone.
You must have stopped reading after that post. You can’t immobilize an Elementalist before they activate their Vapor Form due to conditions dropping off upon death and Vapor Form being available immediately before someone can deal damage to you.
Time to teach Elementalits about their class mechanics again! Shame I have to repeat myself again but reading doesn’t seem to be a lot of your strong suit.
Immobilize the Elementalist: This has already been debunked. Conditions clear as soon as you are downed. You are given a moment of invulnerability between reaching 0HP and having your first two downed skills become available. Vapor Form becomes available IMMEDIATELY upon being downed because it is your 2 skill.
Please keep your complaints about stealth out of this thread. This discussion is about how Elementalsit can allow themselves to be downed right outside of their portal and then use Vapor Form to guarantee that they survive.
If you are having trouble with roaming stealth thieves, feel free to PM me for some advice on how to stop them but let’s stay on topic.
sorry if yuo can only think of immobilze to counter the eles viper from then your bad as far as i know you can also use guardian bubble, line of warding , ring of warding from a guardian and thats just the once i know off as i have done it.
yes vaporing back is strong for harrasing close to a tower but its a perk that the ele has same as th thief has hes stealth and how he uses it and the mesmers and hes portals and so on, its one of the few things the ele has with 2 extra weapon sets to, gessing its the eles perks.
in downed state there is the thief having cripple, the mesmer haveing confusion, the guradian haveing a aoe heal, the ranger haveing a extra person to heal him(pet). all has something
Given that you guys provided incorrect information about being able to immobilize it is only fair that we present the possibility that you are wrong/lying about this too.
No one is suggesting Vapor Form be removed. (If you read the thread, you would know that.) It is being suggested that Vapor Form not allow players to pass through portals. You would still retain your special three second invulnerability skill that lets you re-position yourself.
Except we have to sacrifice almost everything to barely survive while other classes have more breathing room. Lowest armor and health and on top no class mechanic like clones or stealth to break target or confuse foes. Our survivability comes from our gear and some skills of which most are situational. When the situation arises we shine else were doomed. Now dont come tell me that’s unfair that we can vaporform through portals.
You don’t actually have to sacrifice anything in this situation. You just have to get downed in front of a building you own and you can safely float inside.
Your spec does not impact your ability to use your 2 in downed state. You can spec however you’d like!
Please stay on topic. As I’ve said before, this is not an issue about how OP or UP Elementalist are. This is a thread about their ability to Vapor Form through portals.
Surviving and mitigating damage is kinda the elementalists mechanic if you didnt notice.
The mechanic in this situation is Vapor Forming through portals.
What you described is something every profession strives to do.
It must be pretty game changing! People are defending it like it is a core Elementalist mechanic!
Time to teach Elementalits about their class mechanics again! Shame I have to repeat myself again but reading doesn’t seem to be a lot of your strong suit.
Immobilize the Elementalist: This has already been debunked. Conditions clear as soon as you are downed. You are given a moment of invulnerability between reaching 0HP and having your first two downed skills become available. Vapor Form becomes available IMMEDIATELY upon being downed because it is your 2 skill.
Please keep your complaints about stealth out of this thread. This discussion is about how Elementalsit can allow themselves to be downed right outside of their portal and then use Vapor Form to guarantee that they survive.
If you are having trouble with roaming stealth thieves, feel free to PM me for some advice on how to stop them but let’s stay on topic.
Its simple really. You either make all classes have the same downed skills and get a variant of World of Homogenizecraft or you keep things unique and stop crying.
Thieves can stealth stomp warriors without any retaliation from him. They can even teleport stomp mesmers if they time the stomp and shadowstep since SS does not stop the stomp. Do you see us making threads about this??
If you keep making threads about unique mechanics, you will have a game where we all have 1 skill when downed (bandage) and mesmers have no illusions, thieves have no stealth, guardians have no books, warriors have no burst and ofc ele has no mistform
:-)
The homogenizing argument is cute but not applicable. Vapor Form gives Elementalist 3 seconds of invulnerability and allows them to move during that time. That is the benefit it gives you that is completely special and unique to Elementalist.
This appears to be the ‘new’ argument. It is not going to cut it. It is simply not the case.
is it really that hard to immobilize them? I’m sorry for people who are mad that they have to do more then spam random skills till the ele dies. Also, if your in a zerg fight who the hell cares if an ele jumps down into the zerg outside the door. What are they gonna do? cast some kinda instant mega nuke before 2-3 peoples one shot their squishy bodies? sounds more like a suicide jump to me.
Also if they are doing thakittens wasting their time being downed and also other players trying to rez them when they could be attacking.
Someone didn’t read the whole thread before posting!
Conditions fall off upon death.
Vapor Form is available immediately upon dying.
You are granted invulnerability during the transition time between being reduced to 0HP and entering the downed state.
It is not a case of it being ‘hard.’ It is a case of it being impossible.
Against large siege groups a single Elementalist is entirely ineffective. Against a smaller siege group of 10 or so people attacking a gate, a single Elementalist is capable of dealing damage and causing a great deal of disruption with no risk of dying.
I could drop down, switch to Earth form, and activate Earthquake for the knockdown, then use my Glyph of Storms to create a sandstorm, blinding everyone in the area, preventing them from being able to attack the gate and myself every three seconds. I could also activate my Armor of Earth to grant me stability and protection while I got to town on the siege. Under normal circumstances, after executing this crazy combo, I would have to flee to avoid getting thrown into my downstate and then dying.
Given that I actually want to be downed for the invulnerability I get from Vapor Form, I can keep attacking the siege until go down.
This is just one example, maybe not even the most effective example, of how one person can very easily abuse this mechanic.
You see, skill would be if I was able to pull this all off or something similar to it and survive.
Cheese is being able to cause this much disruption indefinitely so long as my cooldowns come off.
In this situation Armor of Earth was my longest utility cooldown. That’s all right though, I can do one of these drop ins without it.
(edited by Yuujin.1067)
Fix retaliation, needs a cooldown per tick.
My unload does 8 hits and retaliation does average 320 per hit, thats 2560 damage on 1 unload, so in 3 unloads it becomes 7680 damage done from retaliation on myself by an enemy not doing anything.
Makes me sad… very sad.
We shall see where retaliation sits. I’ve only just recently started noticing it used a lot, of often in conjunction with confusion so that is two sources of damage punishing you for putting out loads of damage.
This has been on my engineer though, and it aligned perfectly with me messing around with my Flamethrower build so as you can imagine, my x10 1 attack was dealing lots of damage to me.
With that said, that was my primary source of damage, so it wasn’t like I could just interrupt an unload and switch to auto attacking but it never managed to kill me.
We can always rely on ANet to overnerf something though, so if the numbers get too crazy, I’m sure retaliation will be useless is no time.
Right now though, it really is fine. It isn’t even an issue of ‘learning to play’ as people like to toss out as if they are actually good at the game, it’s just been showing up a lot more lately. You’ll get used to it.
If you’re popping huge backstabs, you won’t be getting any mileage out of Torment. What was it? 50% the damage of a bleed if they stand still or 150% of the damage if they are moving? Two stacks of bleed for my power specced thief does 261 damage over 3 seconds.
No one running with a dagger in their mainhand is actually going to give up valuable utility to equipped a poison that puts out so little damage.
Based off of the leaked notes, which moderators have consolidated into a single thread on the discussion forums leading me to believe that they are actually real (Whether you like it or not) I’m going to give ANet some credit and say they didn’t go overboard with it.
It is going to be great for the Pistol builds that focus around condition damage that they seem to be promoting with some of the changes and that is about it.
It’s not a suicide run. The elementalist used his downed state intelligently to be a minor annoyance to your zerg that would otherwise flatten him in seconds without a single bit of skill on your part.
It’s not suicide if the elementalist doesn’t get killed. It’s just outplaying you.
This is exactly why this needs to change. You guys rely on so many crutches, like being able to get yourself killed and vapor form to safety, that you never learn how to play your classes correctly.
That and you fool yourselves into thinking it takes skill.
So you’ve basically admitted you’re trolling us then. Seeing as you’re discrediting everyone who’s proposed the counters to stop this from happening by saying you shouldn’t HAVE to bring counters to stop someone from doing something, which is a pretty big hole in your argument considering I have to bring Mist Form to stop the likes of you from three shotting me every time I wander away from my zerg. Just insulted me and everyone who plays an elementalist by saying we don’t know how to play our class because elementalist is just SO cheap and full of cheesey tactics that make the game a piece of cake.
There is no further need for discussion.
The counter of pulling an Elementalist away from the portal after it lands on the ground before killing it? To counter you dying and pressing 2?
I mean, we’ve already established that they can immediately Vapor Form upon death and float back inside so the idea of ‘countering it while they are downed with immobilize’ was just an attempt to justify the action by saying there was actually a way to counter it after they died.
So after establishing that the above counter was just a lie (Or the people proposing it don’t know how there class works which is equally likely) you just toss out and even more ludicrous suggestion?
And I’m the troll here.
Aaand what about pulling the ele further away from the door BEFORE he goes down? What about putting a guardian bubble block in front of the door? Or hitting him with fear so he runs away from the door before going down?
Even if we run with the premise that immobilize goes away when downed, which a few here and noted it does not (Haven’t verified either way myself), there are ways to deal with it. And the amount of damage a lone ele can do to a zerg is trivial at best. Just break into the fort and kill him if your entire zerg is utterly without the capacity to figure out a way to deal with it.
I never use this tactic myself as my internet latency means I can’t move at all in vapour form (I move on my screen but the game recognizes that I didn’t leave my original position) so this effects me not in the least. It’s still a silly thing to be complaining about.
And that is the last I’ll be saying on the matter.
Good. As much as I enjoy watching you defend the tactic of pressing 2 and entering a portal and trying to pretend it takes skill and therefore should require all the things you listed to counter, it is really starting to get sad.
It’s not a suicide run. The elementalist used his downed state intelligently to be a minor annoyance to your zerg that would otherwise flatten him in seconds without a single bit of skill on your part.
It’s not suicide if the elementalist doesn’t get killed. It’s just outplaying you.
This is exactly why this needs to change. You guys rely on so many crutches, like being able to get yourself killed and vapor form to safety, that you never learn how to play your classes correctly.
That and you fool yourselves into thinking it takes skill.
So you’ve basically admitted you’re trolling us then. Seeing as you’re discrediting everyone who’s proposed the counters to stop this from happening by saying you shouldn’t HAVE to bring counters to stop someone from doing something, which is a pretty big hole in your argument considering I have to bring Mist Form to stop the likes of you from three shotting me every time I wander away from my zerg. Just insulted me and everyone who plays an elementalist by saying we don’t know how to play our class because elementalist is just SO cheap and full of cheesey tactics that make the game a piece of cake.
There is no further need for discussion.
The counter of pulling an Elementalist away from the portal after it lands on the ground before killing it? To counter you dying and pressing 2?
I mean, we’ve already established that they can immediately Vapor Form upon death and float back inside so the idea of ‘countering it while they are downed with immobilize’ was just an attempt to justify the action by saying there was actually a way to counter it after they died.
So after establishing that the above counter was just a lie (Or the people proposing it don’t know how there class works which is equally likely) you just toss out and even more ludicrous suggestion?
And I’m the troll here.
You guys are still arguing with this terribad thief? Let this thread die already.
Don’t jump to conclusions. If you’ve been keeping up you’d know I understand the mechanics of the Elementalist class better than most the people posting in this thread.
It’s not a suicide run. The elementalist used his downed state intelligently to be a minor annoyance to your zerg that would otherwise flatten him in seconds without a single bit of skill on your part.
It’s not suicide if the elementalist doesn’t get killed. It’s just outplaying you.
This is exactly why this needs to change. You guys rely on so many crutches, like being able to get yourself killed and vapor form to safety, that you never learn how to play your classes correctly.
That and you fool yourselves into thinking it takes skill.
You keep disregarding any argument that doesn’t have something immediately to do with “Eles can vapor form into keeps and Thiefs cant” but what you are failing to realize is ANET doesn’t balance 1 feature of a class directly against 1 feature of another class. They balance entire classes against each other.
So lets turn this around. Lets say its my massive zerg in front of the Thief’s gate. Well the thief can just stealth and run through the zerg and likely make it, because any damage done to you will be by complete accident, and if you didnt walk around the AOE on the gate thats your own fault.
Now lets look at ele. Hmm there is a massive zerg on the gate? well I guess i can use mist form and get half way through the zerg followed by a dodge roll and then maybe get lucky and get inside. But for that whole time I AM COMPLETELY VISIBLE and people are free to target me. So i get downed and then use vapor form and I’m inside. phew.
Look at that, we both got inside the keep. Except for the thief it took way less effort and less risk.
This shouldn’t be about comparing downed skills to other classes downed skills. The classes aren’t balanced that way.
I didn’t turn this into a “Elementalist vs Thieves, Warriors, Gaurdians” ect thread, the Elementalist in this thread who couldn’t come up with a convincing argument as to why you can suicide and vapor form back into a tower did.
Also, after reading your post, I’m just going to assume you don’t play your class and are unaware of your how your class works so let me teach you how to play it.
Mist Form: Three seconds of invulnerability (Grants you immunity to damage if you don’t understand what that means.)
Hide in Shadows: Three seconds of stealth. Continue to take damage.
So your argument falls short.
Since people like yourself keep turning this into a Thieves vs Elementalist argument, I’ll be more than happy to educate you on both your class and my own.
1) Existing conditions fall off of you upon death.
Not true with Immobilize, all the times when I was immobilized I stayed immobilized after entering downed state.
Except it is. If you are being immobilized, it means you are not hitting 2 fast enough.
3) During the time between falling and your first two skills becoming active you cannot take damage or receive conditions.
yet you can successfully immobilize before that moment.
Except, no, you can’t. See above. You are reacting too slowly.
There is no way to counter Vapor Forming into a portal if the player spams 2 upon death.
And yet other people have pointed out to you that they can kill elementalists no problem and that 1. you should learn to immob 2. shouldn’t ambush so close to keeps. Yet you continue going on about your crusade to rofflestomp people without putting in any thought.
Actually, they haven’t. They’ve just proven that they will pretend that something takes more skill (Or in this case any skill) than it actually does to pull off to make themselves feel like they are ‘good players’.
Wait a second. I’m starting to see a pattern here. More than one profession can stealth stomp…
actually no, only thieves can do it. I demand a nerf, because classes can’t have unique skills!
Other classes have access to stealth and I have on more than one occasion stealth stomped people on my Elementalist and Engineer due to AE stealth spells.
It is clearly a learn to play & a learn to read issue.
You`ve been told how to stop them going back in.
If you`re having problems doing so even after all this, I suggest you just quit crying, because you`re just plain bad.
I`ve a level 22 thief & can stop ele`s with ease whether in downed or up & running about.
Anyhow, you`re obviously trolling, reported.
Oh I see, now it is a case of having to pull them away from the portal so they can’t Vapor Form back in. Interesting. So rather than Elementalist being the only class that can pass through portals while in downed state, now they are the only class you have to pull away from the portal entrance leading into a tower or keep before you kill them.
(edited by Yuujin.1067)
If you want that nerfed, I want Stealth stomping nerfed. It should reveal the player while casting F or when finished. Now the player NEVER get revealed. That is even ironic cause normally every action reveals a thief. So anet, if vapor form gets nerfed, please nerf Stealth stomping.
And while we are at it, Thief is the only profession that can get massive healing boost while inside downed state. Since others can’t do it, it is unfair and should be nerfed. Being hidden, and healing yourself is op, so please nerf it.
Thief is the only profession with 2 stomp interrupts. While we are at it, nerf this too Anet. reason: others can’t do it.
Bad nerf calls are bad nerf calls.
‘and no we are not destroying game, you see the op backstab is still there, so counter argument is not allowed’. Voila my simple request, is so fair Anet will for sure listen to me.
Nooooooooot. Every profession has his own set of tricks to keep himself alive. Wether it’s in downed or in ‘alive’ state, everyone has something, and it has been split between downed/alive state, to keep variation in place and balance the game out.
Sure! And while we’re at it, let’s nerf stability stomps too! If you have a knockdown skill in your downed state and you use it on a person who has stability on, it should go through stability!
Wait a second. I’m starting to see a pattern here. More than one profession can stealth stomp… and stability through knockdowns… but Elementalist are the only class able to Vapor Form through portals while downed.
If you want to kill the game, listen to this guy. Otherwise draw your conclusions. In my opinion, Thief has the least right to speak from all the professions, about enemy profession nerfs.
Yeah! Kill the game by making Elementalist unable to go through portals while in Vapor Form once they are downed.
Grrrr, destroying the game!
At least we’re back on topic.
So you believe that the answer to a Elementalist only mechanic is “Switch out utility and change your playstyle so that when cheesy Elementalist use this tactic during siege you have the utility available to CC them so they can’t get back inside”?
Yes. I’m sorry but both in Mobas and MMOs I have to switch my skills depending on a situation.
In regards to GW2: you can’t run a permanent build in dungeons nor in WvW. To be good at your class you actually have to adapt. When you’re asked for stealth in dungeons, you give stealth, when you need to immobilize, you immobilize, if you don’t adapt, then don’t be surprised that you can’t kill someone who did adapt.
In regards to games like Smite: I love going for a damager build in matches while playing tanks. Last time I played Vulcan I had to sacrifice my ability to kill efficiently just not to feed, hence for survival I had to go with magical protection and slows. The enemy team lost and the ones that were in our lane got blamed for it. Me and my friend had to explain that it’s not the players fault, but we were specking to be hard counters while they didn’t spec to adapt.
In short – in any competitive game a stagnant build will be the end of you.
Well, since we’ve arrived at this point, back on topic but while continuing to focus on the ‘there is a way to counter it’ point, I’d just like to bring a few things to your attention.
1) Existing conditions fall off of you upon death.
2) Like most (If not all) skills that occupy the two slot, Vapor Form is available immediately the moment you are put into the downed state.
3) During the time between falling and your first two skills becoming active you cannot take damage or receive conditions.
So I entertained this notion that there was a way to ‘counter it’ because the goal was to get you all to unanimously agree on that. We argued that this was a ‘skill issue’ so you could present an argument that suggested that because there was a way for us to stop this from happening it should be allowed.
A few of you have probably saved your Vapor Form to interrupt a stomp (Get that invuln!) so you think that you can be immobilized, but you can activate it right upon death.
Unfortunately, a few of you decided to ramble off about how underpowered the Elementalist was and how crappy their mobility was, but now that we’ve arrived back on topic, let’s discuss this.
There is no way to counter Vapor Forming into a portal if the player spams 2 upon death.
Commence new argument. I’m interested in hearing what it is.
And before you call troll, you all knew full well this was the case even though you’ve been trying to sell this load that it is a skill issue.
We shouldn’t be discouraging the creative use of abilities. It takes away from tactics and strategies that can be used and makes the game less dynamic and interesting.
Well said.
You have the option to use the utility. If you don’t, then you have made your choice. If I want to kill a guardian (engineer, warrior, ranger) before his team nukes me down, I have to use a utility (Armor of Earth) for the stability.
Why should you have to be able to kill me without working for it?
It is a fair point. I think what it really comes down to is you don’t have to do anything in this case as an Elementalist. You just get downed, hit 2, and you’re back inside your keep healing up. Every other profession in this situation is done for. If there is a zerg at your doorstep and you get downed as any other profession, you’re dead.
The Elementalist is the only profession that can just hit two and float back inside through a portal.
The legwork for every other profession in the game is killing them before they get into the portal. With Elementalist, it is killing them before they get into the portal -and- immobilizing them so they can’t just float back inside of it.
Sure, a thief can run by stealthed but they still take damage from all the AE focused on the doors. Professions, including the Elementalist, can simply pop invulnerability and run through if they are trying to get inside.
However, the Elementalist is still the only Profession that can intentionally suicide and float back inside with limited repercussions. As far as I am aware, and this has never happened to me before, once I go down and hit my Vapor Form, I can’t be immobilized. It has to occur before I pop invulnerability.
And once again, CC them and they won’t do it. It shouldn’t have to be changed just because a few bads refuse to adapt. It’s like trying to explain to a 2 year old not to touch the stove because it’s hot. geez.
At least we’re back on topic.
So you believe that the answer to a Elementalist only mechanic is “Switch out utility and change your playstyle so that when cheesy Elementalist use this tactic during siege you have the utility available to CC them so they can’t get back inside”?
I mean, I’m not going to lie, there is always a certain sense of satisfaction associated with killing an Elementalist right outside of his portal, and I’m sure as Elementalist you’ve dealt with that frustration yourselves. It’s what every other profession goes through, except unlike you guys, once we’re downed we’re done.