Showing Posts For aarias.4016:
1 2
I lost 25-30 high-value tactivators (watchtowers, presence, EWP, iron guards, etc) as a result of this bug and was reimbursed with 5 Improvement and Tactic Packs. Is this a joke? Seriously…pathetic.
(edited by aarias.4016)
Also, tactivators are cleared each time the map crashes. I added nearly full tactivators to my server’s EB keep/towers/smc, lost them when the map crashed, added them again, and lost them all a second time following another crash. I won’t add them a third time now that I know what’s going on, but I hope I can have the lost tactivators refunded…those things aren’t cheap!!! I have submitted a ticket already.
To all the people saying “don’t build or use ACs”, and/or “learn to fight”, etc, you’re completely missing the point.
I have no great love of ACs, or any siege for that matter, but what’s fair is fair, and if this burn on block can kill ACs, Retaliation should as well, or the multitude of other damage on block abilities.
You can’t argue that ACs (or other siege) should take damage from passive traits/abilities, yet pretend that it is somehow justified that only one of them actually does it.
There are a lot of on hit, on block, on evade, on whatever traits and abilities out there…if one works against siege, so should they all…but if not, the one outlier should be brought in line with the rest.
It’s not a bug if ANET decided to let siege take on condi damage.
Fire aura, and even frost aura with necro’s Deathly Chill allow the arrow cart to take damage as well. As well as any silly rune with on hit condition procs like perplexity.
By all means, let the siege go back to what it used to be with half the hp and immune to conditions. On this note I don’t really care either way.
Chinchilla, to my knowledge, this is one of the only cases (if not the only?) where passive on-hit traits or abilities (runes in this case) will proc on siege hitting them. Retal doesn’t affect siege.
(edited by aarias.4016)
ACs are destroyed within seconds when proccing this burn on block ability.
I assume this is a bug? If not, it needs to be nerfed.
(edited by aarias.4016)
The real question is, what else are they supposed to do?
Split up their group and karmatrain twice as fast?
De-stack the server they are on, or have not stacked that server in the first place.
Not at all, what’s fair for one TZ is fair for the others.
There tends to be less of a problem during NA prime though since most servers have a decent population. Even if one server has better guilds or whatever, they at least have warm bodies to carry out tasks.
During OCX/SEA through to EU there tends to be a lot of 40+ vs <10 ktraining which is a horrible experience for the <10 side and usually leads in those people either being miserable and eventually quitting the game entirely, or transferring to the 40+ server so they can “win”.
(edited by aarias.4016)
Baldrick, no offense intended, but I don’t know that you’ve encountered what I’m describing, or maybe you don’t play during NA off-hours.
If an enemy zerg runs up to your objective, the first thing they build is a shield gen, followed by two other shield gens, followed by two or more rams/catas, there’s not much you can do. Siege you build on the wall gets AOE’d down by Eles, or the siege operator gets Mesmer Focus pulled and killed.
Since a single person can only deploy one supply trap, covering every objective, or all the possible spots of one is nearly impossible. If you’re cowing one area, the zerg will go to another. Once they’ve built one Shield Gen, it’s game over since they can build two more while the first bubble is up, and provide full coverage after that. If well placed, the bubble will cover all the deployed siege, including the Shield Generators themselves.
I’m not saying that no group of people can ever defend against a zerg…all I’m saying is that a zerg with a driver that knows what they are doing is heavily favored over a group of defenders to the point that defense becomes trivial.
Suiciding on siege is an option, but when the numbers are 2, 3, or even 4 to one, it’s not a good one.
There are a lot of things in the game design at present that encourage players/servers to stack the heck out of one server/time zone and ktrain rather than encouraging balanced sides and tougher competition.
It is a universal truth that people like to “win”, and in most cases in GW2, by assembling the largest blob in town players are able to have their way with the other servers with very little risk. Nothing can be done about this, it’s human nature, but, in my opinion, there are two key game issues that not only fail to prevent this type of behavior, but actually encourage it.
-1-
Greater individual reward for capturing objectives than defending them. Assigning greater value (PPT) to upgraded objectives was a good start, but does nothing to reward each individual so they are incentivized to do anything other than zerg, kill helpless foes, and ktrain their objectives. In addition to this, the current skirmish system nullifies a great deal of the value of holding upgraded objectives since winning a skirmish rewards your server with a set number of points, no matter how much you won the skirmish by. If your server has the biggest blob, typically you are able to capture enough objectives and kill enough people to win the skirmish, regardless of the level of upgrades on the other server’s side.
-2-
The second, and perhaps most glaring issue in my mind is the introduction of Shield Generators to the game. These devices, when used offensively, completely ruin any chance at staging a defense of your structures using counter siege. Optimal offensive siege placement locations are now well known, and a series of rams/catas/trebs covered by 3+ shield gens is essentially immune to defensive siege, and provided that the attackers have the superior force, there is little the defenders can do but stand and watch.
I fully understand that population imbalance will always be an issue in WvW, and that’s fine, but when game mechanics further incentivize stacking servers/time zones, and/or make it impossible for a smaller defending force to do anything meaningful in game, that is a serious problem.
For the good of WvW, please look into this issue, and make the game fun again for the players/servers who DO NOT choose to join the bandwagon!
(edited by aarias.4016)
I activated my “Invulnerable Fortifications” guild upgrade today and did not receive the GXP associated with the upgrade. My guild was level 29 before the upgrade, and 15 GXP away from L30, following the upgrade, nothing seems to have changed.
Has anyone else encountered this issue?
Thanks!
@Steelo
That would be an interesting approach too, actually. I agree that siege cap needs to be tweaked, but I kinda see that as a separate issue to Shield Gens being OP. At the end of the day, 3-4 Catas/Rams protected by 2-3 Shield Gens are going to be just as broken as 6 Catas/Rams with Shield Gens.
That being said, it would be nice if gates/walls lasted a little longer vs large groups…6+ rams/catas will shred whatever they are hitting. All of this is exacerbated by the fact that many people can carry 25 supply now…building a mass amount of siege is much easier now than ever before.
apharma – what you describe is the exact situation I have the most problem with.
In my opinion, there is very little that Anet can do in order to force people to destack overpopulated/unbalanced time zones, but in the past, a small force of defenders with careful siege placement and good scouting would have a reasonable chance at defending their structures. Since the introduction of Shield Generators, this is no longer the case. What I see more and more often is map-queue sized groups either rolling up to a gate/wall, building 3 shield gens, and rams or catas, then grinding it down while their vastly superior numbers keep the defenders from getting close enough to disable or do any significant damage to the siege itself.
Your example of EB is very much the same, and potentially more imbalanced since all this can be done from a number of towers while using trebs to hit other objectives.
Any mechanic that gives more power to a side that already heavily outnumbers their opposition is a bad one in my mind, and Shield Generators do just that. Massive numerical superiority prevents direct engagement, and Shield Generators essentially prevent indirect attacks of all sorts, other siege included.
This is still as important as ever in my mind. Blobs and timezone mismatches are even more prevalent since the server linking came into place. Large zergs are able to build 3+ Shield Gens and grind out gates/walls while the smaller number of defenders have literally no counter play. This type of engagement kills the competitive spirit of the game IMO, and needs to be stopped.
Option 1: stand and watch. Utter waste of space you are. One of my pet hates is players afraid of getting their pixels hurt (that includes players who can run backwards faster than forwards..). Players will literally stand there and watch the wall/gate melt from catapults rather than run in, get a few hits on them, and have their pixels hurt. If enough run in and suicide, you can melt the siege quite quickly. But people would rather stand there than do anything at all…
Option 2: do something about it. If the siege is in any way reachable, then go suicide on it. If it isn’t directly reachable, then counter it. HINT: it might be useful to build a shield generator first , then the counter treb…
Option 3: attempt to pull them away by attacking something else, or attacking several structures at the same time. When wvw first came out we used to have at least one team whose sole job was exactly that- known as the suicide squad due to the fact they would get killed quite a bit, but in doing so would pull off a lot more of the enemy.
Option 4: take a small squad and insta build superior bally or cata to take down some enemy siege/help a co ordinated push on the siege and shield generators.
The larger force if well organised should win eventually- this is balanced.
All these options are viable provided the defenders have enough people, but with the crazy population imbalances we currently see during various time zones, most are not practical. Siege, in my opinion, should serve to balance the odds in uneven battles, not skew them further in favor of the stronger side.
In order to “suicide” on the attackers siege you need to get close enough to actually hit the siege, which means you need enough people to make a solid push – shield gens actually have a lot of HP…they are not easily suicided on unless you have a decent sized group.
Building a balli can work if you have LOS on the siege/shield gens, but let’s not forget that balli range is relatively low in the context of a treb fest, shield gens also block ballista fire, and the superior attacking force are typically watching closely for such tactics…they literally have nothing else to do.
With regard to building counter shield gens/siege, etc, that is the attrition loop I was speaking of in my original post. A relatively small number of defenders will never have enough supply/people to stage an adequate defense. You can prolong a siege, but rarely by very long as any of your counter siege is generally re-countered easily by the larger attacking force. If the defenders build shield gens to defend their counter treb, that leaves their walls vulnerable, whereas if they defend their walls, that leaves their counter siege vulnerable. All that aside, the chance of defensive siege actually hitting/killing attackers siege is low due to their shield gens. The real problem is that the most viable solution to the problem involves a direct attack of some sort from outside the walls of the keep which is unviable against an attacking force that has a significant numerical advantage.
(edited by aarias.4016)
I’d like to point out to Anet that Shield Generators are anti-competitive and in many cases prevent defensive siege from being effective at preventing attacks provided the attacking group have enough people/supply to build shield gens in addition to their rams/cata/trebs/etc.
In the past (pre-shield gens), a small number of defenders could be effective in holding off large numbers of attackers through good siege placement and being “on the ball” when it came to using said siege. These days, in most cases, attacking zergs can build several shield gens on a gate to prevent defensive trebs from killing rams, or build shield gens in an area to prevent their trebs from being destroyed while they take down gates/walls with impunity. Given similar numbers this isn’t such an issue since an active engagement will generally lead to the destruction of the attackers siege, even if the defenders ultimately wipe in the end, but with lopsided populations as we see today, there is little to no option for the smaller/defending side to defend their structures. This generally leads to a long, drawn out siege of towers/keeps leaving defenders with no option but to stand and watch.
Some examples of this scenario are building 3-4 shield gens + trebs in Aldons, Jerrifers, Bravost, or Langor and simply trebbing the keep for as long as it takes for the walls to fall.
I believe shield generators ultimately give increased power to servers who massively outnumber their opponents which is anti-competitive and leads to reduced participation from the server on the receiving end of such tactics. Standing inside a keep for 30-60 mins while a superior force trebs you with relative impunity does not make for compelling game play. Counter siege is, in most cases, ineffective due to shield gens, and enemy numbers make a direct attack unviable – in some cases the defending side may be able to counter a portion of the attackers siege, but this is often rebuilt quickly due to size of the attacking forces. Shield Generators turn WvW sieges into a game of attrition which will always be won by the larger force. In most cases the only option left to defenders is to stand and watch, or simply leave the keep and try to find other structures to take for a few brief moments until the enemy zerg is done with whatever objective they are currently targeting…neither option is very good.
If Shield Generators are to persist in the game at all, I think the radius and/or duration of the #3 ability needs to be reduced dramatically, or have the #3 provide a different function entirely – potentially reduced damage to players from siege fire, or something of the like?
Thank you for reading.
(edited by aarias.4016)
You bought multiple salvage-o-matics because you were too “busy” to jump to the bank and move it for another toon to use… now you want Anet to refund your “too busy to do [task]” spending?
Really?
Wow
Indeed I do.
Isn’t that the exact reason why account-wide inventory slots are valuable in the first place? So you don’t have to waste time transferring stuff between characters via the bank?
To put it in perspective, I have 8 copper fed salvage-o-matics, one on each of my characters. The extra inventory slots are tempting, but at this point, if I were to buy one (or more), I may aswell destroy 7 of my salvage-o-matics which each cost more than the inventory slot itself.
(edited by aarias.4016)
For people like me who have salvage-o-matics for each of their characters, is there any chance we should have the cost of our salvage-o-matics refunded when we purchase account-wide inventory slots? The inventory slots kinda make multiple salvage-o-matics a waste.
Does anyone know for sure that this trait is working as intended? Currently the target player is both dazed and stunned, making it so they literally can’t do anything. Can’t use a stun break due to the daze, and can’t run/dodge due to the stun.
Since the last patch (one of the bug-fix patches I believe) Mantras have started counting down their cooldown timer immediately after charging rather than after the final charge has been used.
Effectively, a mesmer can can now charge their mantras in advance of a fight, use all the charges, then recharge the mantra immediately. Before the patch, the cooldown timer would begin after the last charge had been used.
I assume this is a bug rather since it is different than before the patch.
I will keep my comments short and to the point since I know your time is valuable.
1. I LOVE the idea of the “Alliance” system.
2. In order for it to be successful, I strongly believe that Alliances will need to be kept small enough that a it will take multiple alliances to form one “Team” in each match-up. If the entire WvW population of any T1 server are able to enter into a single Alliance, the benefit of the Alliance system, for the most part, is lost, since that Alliance is likely to remain “stacked” relative to the rest.
3. Some metric will need to be developed in order to rate individual players (and the Alliances they populate) based on the average number of hours they play, and at what time of the day those hours are played. Subdividing the 24h day into a series of coverage groups (maybe 6 4-hour groups?, or vise versa) then assigning each player a rating between 0 and 1 for each of those groups based on the amount of time they are actively engaged in WvW during those hours of the day.
4. When forming teams for weekly matchups, an algorithm would match Alliances and individual players (people who are not in an Alliance) based on both their size (Alliances) and their coverage group values. A simple weighted mean should work fine for this. The ratings for each Alliance would be the mean coverage group values of all its players multiplied by the total number of members of that Alliance (or some representative factor). Individual players could either be pooled (and treated as Alliances) or kept separate, but their coverage group values would be calculated similarly. The matchmaking script would need to find combinations of Alliances and players whose coverage group values add up to some designated value (server capacity, or whatever value is desired to control the “size of the matchup”) and are most similar to each other across the board. A decision would have to be made whether this process would find several sets of 3 teams with similar values within each set, or X teams that are all roughly comparable to each other. I suspect that several sets of 3 would be the way to go since it would be difficult create a large number of balanced teams unless Alliances were kept prohibitively small.
5. Some people have expressed a desire to stay in “small” matchups, etc…these preferences could all be set using a web-based or in-game interface and factor into the matchmaking system. ie. people who want smaller battles could be entered into a separate matchmaking run that uses a lower “size of the matchup” value.
That’s it for now. I’m very curious to see where all this discussion leads!
(edited by aarias.4016)
“Sic’em” always had a revealed effect, just 4 seconds instead of 6; only utility goggles didn’t have it before. Dealing with it is the same principle as before though. Use obstructions. A good thief will be using obstructions anyway. S/D and S/P can still cope with it – even vs. utility goggles. D/P should be able to cope with blinds from shadow shot against the engineer in place of S/D’s evades, interrupt skills to save endurance, and of course blinding, dazing and obstructing rangers and using blinding powder for the pet if it follows you still work. Don’t forget steal if traited for sleight of hand can be used defensively as well. Thief still has the tools necessary to survive and keep on fighting.
Yes, they’ve only increased the duration by 50%, no big deal. Same ’ol, same ’ol…????
Your suggestion is to use “obstructions”? Seriously? Is this some new skill I don’t know about? So every time I get hit with Sick ‘em or Goggles I’ll just duck behind the nearest wall? LOL!!! Of course, why didn’t I think of that???
“Obstructions” aside, in my experience, 6s is a LOOOOONG time when you’re actually in a even-skilled fight. How many dodges/evades/dazes do you have to pull off in order to survive revealed for 6s? The answer is “too many”.
I’m not going to go through the list of possible thief builds and point out why most aren’t currently viable, but suffice to say that we’re running out of builds in a hurry. IMO, P/D condi is one of the last remaining builds that can hold its own, and tweaking it to withstand an unplanned 6s without stealth would make it no longer competitive to begin with.
You could, of course, make the argument that no one will run Sick ‘em or Goggles, but that’s a pretty weak argument. Thieves are prevalent in roaming and small group engagements, and running either of these two utilities is essentially a hard counter to the entire class.
I am honestly without words for this change. How on earth could giving an ability to TWO classes that can completely shut down the thief’s class-defining ability be a good idea?
Rangers having “Sick ’em” is bad enough, but at least it can only be brought down to a 32s cool down. Don’t get me wrong though, 6s is plenty of time for most decent roamers or groups to focus down a thief.
The Engineer “Utility Goggles” skill is completely game-breaking for thieves and most Mesmer builds don’t have it much better. With 2 points in the “Tools” line, and “Speedy Gadgets” equipped, Engi’s get an insta-cast (nothing to indicate that you should try to dodge) 6s reveal on a 28s (27.5s actually) recast. That’s >20% revealed up time. Not to mention the fact that if you were to put one more point into Tools for “Inertial Converter” the cool down drops to 26s and you would get another 6s of revealed as soon as your health dropped below 25%. Heaved forbid you go 6 points into Tools to get 23s recast on Utility Goggles PLUS a freebie when your health goes below 25%. That’s revealed up time of >25% of the fight, PLUS an extra 6s when your health drops below the threshold. Absolutely ridiculous.
What happens if/when there is more than one Engi/Ranger? I think we all know the answer to that question.
To put this into context, a revealed thief has the lowest vitality/toughness in the game, no access to defensive boons, and very little access to condition removal. As a community, what are we supposed to do to compensate for these new abilities? Go stealthless? S/P is the only real option (P/P remains a joke), but for it to be even remotely effective you need to run full glass – you’ve got a limited amount of initiative to kill someone/stay alive with (Pistol Whip), but once that pool is used up, you’re a sitting duck.
It’s a sad day for thieves, and that is an understatement.
(edited by aarias.4016)
I hate to complain, but I thought this patch was s’posed to be the big WvW patch? What happened? There is basically nothing in here for WvW…
…?
As of ~1:15 PM EST the GW2 client is constantly crashing for me and several other people I know in our TS server. Client has crashed 5-6 times in the past 5ish mins. Tried to restart my computer to no avail, client still crashes. Client was running 100% stable before today’s issues.
Clearly the answer is for SoR to pay an off-peak WvW guild thousands of gold to join our server for a couple weeks so that we can win.
…?
First off, I am a supporter of waypoints in WvW. That said, I don’t think they should be used the way they currently can be; as of now, when contested, a waypoint will open up (briefly) between the expiry of one “contest” and start of a new one. Is this working as intended?
In my opinion, allowing this functionality to persist simply encourages WvW’ers to roam the map in huge zergs, knowing that they can waypoint to their keep and defend (within 3 mins) even while contested. I realize that the attacking side can (and should) plan for a quick take, and have the keep taken in less than 3 minutes, but a lot of things have to go right in order for this to happen.
I think that by making waypoints remain contested for the entirety of a keep siege would reduce the amount of “blobbing” we see on the map since forces would have to be spread more evenly across a map in order to defend what they have already taken (also makes it progressively harder to hold things as you acquire more and more real estate on a map). This would hopefully encourage more small group play and reduce server skill lag since battles (on average) should be smaller and less taxing on the servers.
Thoughts?
As someone who plays a D/P roaming thief, here is the list of classes/builds that can give me trouble;
1. Engineers (mostly condi) – Well played condi engineers are tough to beat. Lots of CC, lots of vigor/dodges, lots of damage. The real strength of the D/P thief is that they can get on top of you and use Black Powder (smoke field) to negate damage. When specced properly, Engies can dodge out of/away from smoke, CC the thief, and apply conditions, even while kiting by throwing nades at their feet).
2. Mesmers. Glassy phantasm mesmers are brutal to fight against. If you can’t kill them before they have their phantasms up (iZerker or iDualist or iMage or iSwordsman), you’re in trouble. The instant that your stealth breaks, all of these phantasms will drop their full DPS onto you. Even if you down the mesmer, the phantasms are a pain to deal with while trying to stomp. Most fights are a battle of trying to manage the phantasms while still inflicting DPS into the mesmer himself. Tricky at times. Staff/condi mesmers are also tough to beat. I don’t typically die to them, but when well played, actually killing one is a chore and can result in a stalemate.
3. Skull Crack warriors – Lights out if they land SC and you’re out of stun-breaks.
4. Hammer warriors – Similar to the SC warrior, good hammer warriors can punish you if you find yourself out of stun breaks. Knock you down and keep you there until you’re dead.
5. Axe warriors – Eviscerate hits like a truck. If you get caught by one, you’re in trouble.
6. Glassy necros – I have run into several necros who can chain fear and have a thief dead before it runs out. This is definitely something that can be countered, but if the thief screws up at all, it’s game over.
7. DPS specced guardians – Ground based DPS abilities can still land solid damage through a smoke field. Lots of health regen, invuln, blocks when needed. Burning hurts.
Now that I look at the list, that is nearly every class (other than ranger). In defense of the ranger class, I have run into some very well played ranger builds that gave be a run for my money, but they are so rarely encountered that they don’t weigh heavily on my mind. You’ll notice that most of the classes that I, personally, can have trouble with are other DPS builds. Since the D/P thief can disengage and perma-stealth/regen health if he/she is allowed to, burst damage (either direct or condi) is the most dangerous thing to fight against.
(edited by aarias.4016)
…(like someone else I got tired of talking to)…
I’m going to pretend I didn’t read this bit.
It struck me last night that Hide in Shadows removes all damage-over-time conditions (burning, poison, bleed), but not (the newly added) torment condition.
I wonder if this is simply a case of A-net not thinking to modify the HiS since torment was introduced, or if it will remain missing from the list of conditions that HiS can heal.
Thoughts?
I have heard people talk about “conditions being the new meta” a lot lately – what’s that all about?
As wish, style, etc have posted above, it’s pretty rare that I encounter a D/P thief in T1 NA WvW.
Recently I’ve been running a S/D + D/P build that I’ve found to be very versatile.
(edited by aarias.4016)
There are some pretty dominant 1v1 Engineer builds out there, but IMO, the thief is better over all when it comes to roaming simply do to the fact that thieves are the best class in the game when it comes to getting away from large groups of enemies.
c) Given that the damage taken was low enough that it is likely to be totally healed by one CnD, and the evidence above that my build would actually out damage yours on the initial burst (see point b) I’d guess that my build would come out ahead in this scenario.
Oh ya? I guess I should trust you since you’re so capable of understanding math and game mechanics and understand all that is required to determine that your set out damages mine.
OH… wait… you were wrong, and I proved it by typing out the math, and I didnt even add any health gained from my omnom ghosts to my HP bar as extra damage (which would of put this set 13% ahead of you and is the entire basis of using them over other foods). I wonder what else you’re wrong about…
I find it HILARIOUS that you’re giving me crap for being off on my guess by 5.5% damage when your original scenarios incorrectly showed you doing 10%+ more damage than me in Scenario 1, and 30%+ more damage than me in Scenario 3. Where on earth did you get those numbers? Using your own math from above, even your Mug build only out damages me by ~8.3% + ~1400 damage every 45 seconds from Mug (this wouldn’t amount to much of a % increase over time due to the long cooldown). Not to mention that the Mug build gets a max of +25% run speed (slower than swiftness or speed on stealth), nor much in the way of CC/condition control. How much damage do you do when you can’t catch your opponent?
What’s this about Omnom heals doing damage? Are you serious? Heals heal. End of story. Not to mention the fact that Omnom only works if you’re registering hits, which is far from 100% of the time…and an even smaller fraction of the time when you roll into the fight with little to no CC/condition removal ability.
Anyway, this is to long and I quit caring again.
Nothing smart to say about the other scenarios/topics? Can’t help but laugh at the fact that you pick and choose parts of my replies to rant on about, while completely ignoring anything that might make you look bad.
The bottom line is that compared to your build(s) I’ve made the decision to “give up” 5.5-8.2% damage (absolute best-case scenario for you, when the enemy stands still and doesn’t try to run away/cc you) in order to achieve better survivability in long fights, fights against players specced for CC and condition damage, and players specced for evasion/kiting.
I would sincerely LOVE for you to come to one of the T1 servers other than SoR (that’s where I play) so you could appreciate the higher level of play. I see that your thief is on Gates of Madness which is a T7 server and wouldn’t hold a candle to the level of play present in T1. It’s easy to burst people down when they are clueless. At higher levels of play, you need to find ways to cover your weaknesses unless you plan to avoid/run away from classes/builds you know you can’t take.
You don’t have to agree with me, you just have to accept the fact that I have a (slightly) different opinion of what is good and what is bad, and that’s ok. Remember, deep breaths…
(edited by aarias.4016)
Scenario 1 -
a) I’ve only taken 1% less damage in this scenario despite the fact that gw2buildcraft clearly shows that my Damage Reduction is nearly 5% greater than yours.Thats because you fail at reading anything I post, and you dont know that I use the Mug set, and is what I was referring to as I said I was comparing it to what I actually use, and Ive mentioned a lot in this thread that I use the mug set.
You Mug set does indeed have nearly as much damage mitigation as my build. My question is this: why argue with me about how much Toughness sucks when you run it yourself??? Mind boggling.
b) Your set has somehow managed to out damage mine by 10%+ in this short burst despite the fact that my Legendary build has higher Power (2016 vs 2056), higher Crit. Damage (112% vs 102%), and higher Effective Power (4703 vs 4668). A miracle has surely occurred in this fictitious land of yours.
Because Omnom Ghosts dont add damage to paper math numbers given by that website. When you eventually learn paper math isnt the end all, I’ll be happy for you. But sure, lets compare. We’ll do BS > auto attack > CnD, a normal chain. And lets say our target has 3000 armor.
Edited out math to save space
So I guess the set you randomly decided to use instead of the one I was talking about is actually only 5.15%~ Better damage than the set you use. And thats when I intentionally swing numbers more into your favor.
Those numbers were great…seriously. You obviously know the damage system well, and I mean that. The only things I can correct you on is that an entire Backstab + AA Chain + CnD actually only takes 3.23 seconds, which means that you’d only get 4x potential damage from your Omnom Ghost (1s internal cooldown), and that you have both of our crit. chances set too low. That said, once those things are corrected, your build comes out on top by ~5.5% – kudos to the Omnom. I’ll admit when I’m wrong, and give credit where it is due…your build will out damage mine by ~5.5% over time. That said, I don’t run Mango Pie for the damage…I run it for the more reliable healing. What if your opponent dodges/blinks/shadowsteps/stealths/CC’s you and begins to kite? The whole time you’re running around, you’re not doing damage, nor are you receiving heals. THAT is where the Mango Pie shines, and it’s why I run it. IMO, my most vulnerable times are when I’m taking damage and am too far away from my opponent to attack or CnD him for stealth/healing. Mango Pie helps with this.
The entire premise of my build is to scrutinize the Thief class and try to patch up as many “holes” as I can find. Thieves typically have poor condition removal, so I take the condition removal on stealth trait. Thieves are squishy, so I spec for more Toughness and run Mango Pie for constant healing that cannot be interrupted. That is the way I approach things.
(edited by aarias.4016)
For the sake of argument, I’ll compare my Legendary build with your Fall #1 build.
…..because thats totally the set I use. But hey lets compare them. You don’t even know that you spec 10 into vit for the fall damage trait, or that blind on stealth is brokenly overpowered for /dagger. So Im sure you need all that toughness to mitigate the mass of hits from none-blinded people who can track you with their auto attack when you stealth.
You know what, I think the most ridiculous part of all of this is that you honestly think that your build is the absolute best for every person and every play style.
Why on earth would I choose the fall damage trait over +50% movement speed while in stealth? In case I decide to jump off a cliff mid fight and (potentially) kill myself? Unlikely. Some people run it, and that’s fine, but it’s certainly not the only trait worthy of selection like you make it out to be. This kind of thinking seems to be a trend with you…
Regarding blind on stealth vs. condition removal on stealth, I agree that blind on stealth is a very powerful trait, in fact, I actually run it myself sometimes. That said, the majority of the time, I prefer condition removal. With high toughness, and all the escape abilities that the thief possesses, I don’t tend to have too much trouble avoiding direct damage. The reason I prefer condition removal in most cases are numerous. Literally any condition damage specced class is a joke when you run it, and Cripple/Chill/Immobilize/Weakness don’t stand a chance. What do you do when someone kites you? You’ve got steal and shadowstep (both on long cooldowns), but other than that any noob could chain cripple/chill/weaken/immobilize you and watch you limp around the battlefield. How much more damage do you do than me when you can’t catch the person you’re trying to kill?
The only thing that really matters is when fighting tough opponents. When fighting them, you need all the EHP and damage you can squeeze out to avoid them being able to sustain the fight indefinitely. My set offers superior values to yours for this. Try to spin it anyway you like with how after you fail miserably at mitigating damage and take 3x your base HP worth of damage your set mitigates more, but while you take that 3x your base HP in damage, my set would of let you kill 1-2 extra people and get stomps on them mitigating even more damage than yours, because those people would of been dead and not attacking you.
Your comment re. Toughness and mitigation is showing the same ignorant stance you’ve had all along. For some unknown reason you keep choosing to ignore the fact that Toughness actually lowers the damage that I take on an ongoing basis. My Vitality of 1236 equates to 20284 EHP once the mitigation has been factored in. By comparison, your build has 1481 Vitality, which equates to 22330 EHP, so 2046 EHP more than me. That said, healing throws the EHP concept for a loop since each heal I receive is actually worth more EHP than it is to you due to the damage mitigation I get from Toughness. If we both started a fight and fought to the death without receiving any heals, your build would be vastly superior to mine and there would be no reason at all to choose Toughness over Vitality, BUT, when heals enter the equation, the Toughness build begins to look better. Using the equation I gave before, I would need to take 43905 EHP (before mitigation) in damage in order to break even…which is 2.16x my base EHP pool. This trade of Toughness for Vitality isn’t going to benefit me at all in a quick fight that last only a minute or two, but if/when a fight lasts longer, and the combatants take more damage, the Toughness build shines. Basically, I am specced so that if I’m matched up with someone who is equally as skilled as I am, I know in the back of my mind that 99% of the time, I will out survive them since my healing is more effective over time than theirs. Remember, the EHP difference between the two builds is only 2046…how much longer do you think that will buy you? That is a small fraction of a backstab, probably half of a CnD, or maybe the first two skills of an auto attack chain. We’re talking seconds at most. You’re going to kill 1-2 extra people and get stomps on them in that amount of time? I beg to differ.
Ok, I’m back, here is what I came up with for you to consider.
Notes:
1. Stats-wise, this build is surprisingly close to my Exotic armor build. You give up a some precision, but gain a little Vitality and Power.
2. Uses Berserker armor and weapons which can be purchased from the Trading Post for gold, or from the Armor Master (not Armor Trader) in Sanctum of Rall borderlands. The Armor Master is near the Laurel Merchant, and the berserker armor is located in 5th tab down…make sure you buy the “rawhide” stuff and not “Chainmail” or “Apprentice” as those are the heavy and light armor versions which Thieves can’t use.
3. All Cavalier trinkets which can be bought using Karma in Straits of Devastation (Orr). Details here.
4. 7x Exquisite Ruby jewels and 5x Exquisite Beryl jewels (armor and trinket sockets). Should run you ~50 silver each.
5. Sigils: Sup. Sigil of Bloodlust is probably out of your price range, but Sup. Sigil of Perception will still give you a nice boost to your damage (increases precision rather than power) for 1/4 of the price. I’ve placed it on your offhand dagger, but that is up to you. When you’ve got money to throw around you can buy yourself a 4th dagger so that when you have the full 25 stacks you can switch out for another sigil and maximize your benefit. Moving on, Sup Sigils of Air are only ~36 silver each and offer the highest single target on-crit damage available…awesome. Sup. Sigil of Force is 1.6g, but is about the same price as the alternative (Sup. Sigil of Accuracy). You could possibly switch to an “on weapon switch” sigil of your choosing, but I think the 1.6g is reasonable for an immediate 5% DPS boost.
6. Consumables: Mango Pie food is only ~33 copper each…among the cheaper L80 food available. Works very well in a (relatively) high toughness build. Hardened sharpening stones (L60) are 10+ times cheaper than Superiors (L80). Still very good though if money is tight (I use them myself most of the time).
Enjoy!
EDIT Keep in mind that this build favors Toughness more than Vitality which is somewhat different than what Wish does with his builds. Personally, I think Toughness is a better deal once you have a certain amount of Vitality…so long as you have a steady source of healing, which this build does.
(edited by aarias.4016)
Are you L80 and have access to the Orr karma merchants?
I’ll take a look later today and see what I can come up with using either inexpensive or karma gear.
In case you’re interested, here is an old video of me playing an old build that was similar in principal to my current build. It’s kinda dated now, but my play style is pretty much unchanged with the exception that Heartseeker isn’t as good now as it used to be.
Keep in mind that this footage was taken before the new armor types were introduced (you’ll notice that the video was uploaded in December, 2012), almost no one had legendary weapons, and legendary jewelery wasn’t yet released. Back then, my traits/food/runes/sigils were more or less the same as my current build except that I was running three pieces of Knights armor, three pieces of Invader armor, and Berserker weapons and jewelery…so a little more Vitality, but less Crit. Damage. As a result of the low Crit. Damage, I was running Executioner rather than Hidden Killer. The Thief class has received many nerfs since this footage was recorded – makes me sad to see the old Heartseeker damage numbers.
(edited by aarias.4016)
I’m not sure why everything has to be a fight over who’s right and who’s wrong with you. Our builds are incredibly similar (which is why I posted mine here in the first place), but I have chosen to spec more into toughness and you into vitality. In my original post, I was simply providing information on Mango Pies, and posted my build so that people could see what a toughness based build might look like. I didn’t say anything about being better. I was hoping for a good discussion on the various merits of each build, etc. That said, your first reply to me, and additional replies since have been petty chest thumping which accomplishes nothing at all. I’m not sure what you are trying to achieve by posting these scenarios of yours which are quite obviously inaccurate. I guess you’re trying to make your build look like the “winner”?
For the sake of argument, I’ll compare my Legendary build with your Fall #1 build.
Scenario 1 -
a) I’ve only taken 1% less damage in this scenario despite the fact that gw2buildcraft clearly shows that my Damage Reduction is nearly 5% greater than yours.
b) Your set has somehow managed to out damage mine by 10%+ in this short burst despite the fact that my Legendary build has higher Power (2016 vs 2056), higher Crit. Damage (112% vs 102%), and higher Effective Power (4703 vs 4668). A miracle has surely occurred in this fictitious land of yours.
c) Given that the damage taken was low enough that it is likely to be totally healed by one CnD, and the evidence above that my build would actually out damage yours on the initial burst (see point b) I’d guess that my build would come out ahead in this scenario.
Scenario 2 -
Given that the damage value you selected is slightly above the EHP of my build, but slightly below that of yours, obviously your build comes out on top. That said, if either one of us were to pop out of stealth next to a zerg hypothetically capable of inflicting 20500 EHP in less time than either of us could react (Shadowstep? Blinding Powder? Dodge? Shadow Refuge?), I doubt they’d stop at 20500 EHP of damage. In all honesty I’m going to hazard a guess and say that we’d both be worm food in this scenario. I’m inclined to call this one a draw, but I’ll give you the win since you make up the rules (apparently).
Scenario 3-
a) Let’s remember that your build only has ~2000 EHP more than mine. Meaning that you would have exactly that much more time than me to do damage. How long does 2000 EHP take, I wonder? I don’t know, but you seem to. Can you show me the math?
b) I’m REALLY curious as to how you’re coming up with these damage numbers. Wow. Referring back to Scenario 1, point B, my Legendary build has higher base damage numbers across all categories than your Fall #1 build. Higher Power/Crit Damage for Backstab and higher baseline EP. The extra damage from your Omnomberry Ghost wouldn’t be reflected properly in your EP, but how much extra damage does that amount to? I don’t know how long this hypothetical stealth free battle wages on for, but chances are the 341 additional damage every 2.4 attacks isn’t going to make up for your lower base damage AND somehow manage to out damage me by an additional 30%+ (my 20000 damage vs. your 26000+ damage, somehow???). Your numbers are out to lunch. Honestly I have no idea who wins this scenario, but it’s safe to say that no D/D thief who knew what they were doing would pop out of stealth and go toe to toe with someone until they were almost dead, so this scenario is more-or-less irrelevant.
Scenario 4 -
You’re basing this scenario on the fact that your build “lets you fight longer and does more damage” which I have shown to be completely false (see Scenarios 1 & 3). Good try though.
Scenario 5 – (this is exercise is starting to get old)
a) If both of us were to take 3000 damage (5% less for me, of course), then we both stealthed and regened “it all”, I’d say that we’ve both done exactly the same thing, haven’t we? If anything, the fact that I lost less health in the first place (due to Toughness) and that my Mango Pie heals me for 85+ per second even if I’m not hitting anything might mean that I could more quickly regen any health lost. Yeah, definitely…I win that round.
Scenario 6 -
I’m not going to bother with this one since you’ve already said that I win. That was easy!
For the record, I watched your video, and the people you faced in most of the clips were so stupid that you may as well have been fighting Target Golems in the Mists. That said, my honest opinion is that it wouldn’t make a bit of difference which of these builds you were running while fighting those people…they are nature’s food animals and were born to die.
Soooo, now that I’ve played along with your little charade, I’ll leave the score keeping up to you.
(edited by aarias.4016)
I am honestly sitting at my keyboard right now wondering if you are being willfully ignorant.
What I said about Backstab damage specifically referenced the Exotic set. My statement was correct. That said, your Legendary set DOES put out more crit. damage than mine, but the difference is 1%. Hardly worth getting excited about.
I seriously don’t think you understand the underlying premise of Toughness vs. Vitality. Toughness decreases the rate at which you take damage…permanently…as in all the time. The health pool you do have lasts longer, because part of the damage is being mitigated by your toughness. Vitality, on the other hand, simply lets you start the fight with more hit points. Once those hit points are gone, they’re gone. There will be no more benefit from your Vitality until you can completely reset the encounter, regen to full health and have your heals come back off of cool down. Toughness and Vitality both increase your EHP, but EHP does not factor healing into the equation at all. I don’t know about you, but when I’m fighting I’m constantly in and out of stealth, regardless of how much health I have. It’s how main hand Dagger thieves do damage. Over time (anything more than 1.36x of a health pool worth of it, as I showed above), the Toughness build will come out ahead of a Vitality build…all other things being equal. This is not opinion, it it fact. Any player that has stacked toughness will, in essence, be able to out live someone who has stacked Vitality simply because they take damage at a lower rate than the Vitality specced player. It’s not simply about making fights last longer by “cowering” in stealth, it’s about the rate at which you take damage. As you will notice, when I have spoken about time in a fight, I refer to damage taken, not minutes and seconds.
I have never suggested that Mango Pie is across the board “better” than Omnoms or Dragonrolls, I simply stated that it is an option for people to consider. It has its benefits, and it has its weaknesses. There are plenty of circumstances where Lifesteal on Crit would be better than Regen, but there are also circumstances where Regen is the best choice.
Moving on, if you spend more of your time fighting out of stealth than in stealth looking for a Backstab, you’d be better off taking Executioner than Hidden Killer. My playstyle is to re-stealth nearly everytime CnD is available. CnD + BS is our best source of damage, and with Health Regen + Condition Removal or Blind coming along with the stealth, it’d be silly not to use it whenever it’s up. The only time I could see myself not going that route would be if the opponent were very low on health and a HS or autoattack would finish them off quicker.
(edited by aarias.4016)
Moving on to damage, the overall EP of your Legendary set is ~2.8% higher than mine, but the damage of critical hits (any critical hit, not just Backstab…so 50%+ of attacks) is only ~1% higher than mine, so taking that, and also considering how much of the damage of any main hand Dagger build comes from Backstab which is a guaranteed crit., the actually DPS advantage of your set will be somewhere between 1% and 2.8%. I am willing to trade 1-2.8 percent of my damage in order to gain more survivability in longer fights, while you, obviously, are not. You don’t need to agree with my decision, but you need to accept the fact that myself (and I’m sure others as well) WILL value this increase in survivability during “long” fights and choose a toughness based build over a similar vitality based build.
My decision to take condition removal on stealth rather than blind on stealth is a matter of preference again. In addition to being able to easily clear cripple, weakness, and chilled, given my lower health pool, the additional protection from conditions is more valuable to me than protection from direct damage…particularly since the thief is potentially the best class in the game when it comes to direct damage avoidance. Stealth, Steal, Shadowstep, and Shortbow 3 & 5 all make the thief a tough SOB to track down.
Mango Pie vs Omnomberry Pie is once again a judgement call. You give up damage for survivability. In a short fight, damage wins, in a long fight, survivability wins. It’s as simple as that.
The comment re. your build functioning better “when it really matters” is completely baseless. Please explain. If anything, the Mango Pie would be better than the Omnomberry pie when you are not actually engaging the enemy since it still provides healing. You need to keep in mind that we’re only actually talking about a difference of 1288 EHP between the two builds.
(edited by aarias.4016)
If you want to look at the Legendary sets (my original reply was discussing the exotic set, in which crit. damage for my build is actually higher than that of your version), then yes, your version provides marginally higher crit. damage (~1%).
Since you dont quite seem to get it. My set has less crit damage than yours does, but my backstab damage is greater than yours, because the power in my build is worth more than the crit damage in yours. The damage on all my other skills is higher as well. If you want to look at the exotic sets (lol why? this is suppose to be about final sets)
2006*2.52=5055
2093*2.42=5065
My set still wins.EDIT: My bad, your set is 104 crit damage. Hurray for double checking after posting.
Your exotic (only) set wins for Backstab damage, but not overall damage.
2006*2.54=5095IMO, beyond a certain base amount of Vitality required to avoid getting “one shot”, toughness is the better defensive stat when a regular source of healing is available.
Im not going to argue any math you didnt show your work for, or whether or not your build has enough HP. But, I don’t think it does, I think mango pie is pretty bad, I think not picking blind on stealth is completely foolish for /dagger since it’s so blantantly overpowered (play with it while fighting a group and see for yourself), I also think its not worth giving up so much damage outside of backstab to gain toughness for no reason when your HP is so low. All that said, it’s just a playstyle difference, but mine will function better than yours when it really matters, like when you get into those ohshi—- situations and are running away without stealth, or intentionally kiting overly large groups and leaving yourself visible to separate squirrels out of the pack, or when youre like, doing damage and attacking stuff.
First of all, I’m not sure what this “my set wins” stuff is about. There is no “best” build for everyone. People play differently, and seek out/avoid different kinds of fights. Servers are different, tiers are different, and individual player objectives are different. It seems that you’ve convinced yourself that you’ve come up with the best D/D build imaginable, and that any alternative is simply “bad”. I disagree, and am actually disappointed in the fact that that you seem to be so unwilling to consider alternative perspectives, or simply ignore facts (the numbers I posted above) because I “didn’t show my math”. It’s a simple calculation, not rocket science.
For the sake of making my point, here it is.
Toughness vs. Vitality Breakeven Point Calculation:
VS = Vitality Gear Set
TS = Toughness Gear Set
DR = Damage Reduction
DT = Damage Taken
[VS EHP] – [TS EHP] = (([TS DR] – [VS DR])/100) * DT
21572 – 20284 = ((30.98 – 26.32)/100) * DT
DT = 1288 / 0.0466
DT = 27639
So the breakeven point is 27639 damage taken during a fight – my original estimate was off by 1000 damage, but the rational stands.
27639 damage as a percent of the EHP of the Toughness Set is 27639/20284*100, or 136%. Stated as a fraction (136%/100), that would be 1.36. So, the person wearing the toughness armor set would only need to take 1.36x of their health pool worth of damage during a fight in order to break even with the EHP of the Vitality based set. That is a fact.
In my experience, the vast majority of my fights against good players involves taking more than 1.36x of my health pool in damage…generally far more. In this case, a toughness based armor set is better than a vitality based set.
With all do respect, Cavalier gear is no better or worse than any other gear. It has stats, and if they are the ones you’re looking for, it is as good as anything else.
Your changes seem to attempt to turn my build into the one you’ve come up with for yourself: that’s not really helpful.
You’ve traded Toughness for Vitality which I think is a poor substitute in a build with lots of health regen, and your version has 12% lower crit. damage than mine. EP is 60 points higher in your (Exotic) version, but that is misleading since we all know how much of the DPS for this build comes from the Backstab – keeping this in mind, the 12% higher crit. damage is a much larger overall boost to DPS.
Your set:
2106 power, 112 crit damage, 100% crit chance on BS
My set for you:
2210 power, 102 crit damage, 100% crit chance on BS
2106*2.62=5517
2210*2.52=5569If you want to argue toughness over vit for regen or whatever I wont argue, but there comes a point where toughness is vastly less useful compared to your HP. Your set has like 12.5k HP base, thats really low.
If you want to look at the Legendary sets (my original reply was discussing the exotic set, in which crit. damage for my build is actually higher than that of your version), then yes, your version provides marginally higher crit. damage (~1%). That said, the whole reason I chose the Cavalier set was for the toughness. In my opinion, with a build that has this much health regen, provided that you have enough Vitality to avoid getting bursted down before you have a chance to react, toughness is the better of the two defensive stats. Since I have chosen to run Shadow’s Embrace to compliment condition removal from HIS and Shadowstep, conditions aren’t really an issue.
Looking once again at the two Legendary build options, your version has 1,243 more EHP but 4.66% less damage reduction. The math tells us that one would need to take ~26680 direct damage (raw value) in order for the effects of the Toughness vs. Vitality to even out, and anything above 26680 damage taken would favor the Toughness build. Using the EHP number from my build, 26680 damage is roughly 130% of my EHP. I don’t know about anyone else, but I find myself in many 1vX fights that last much longer than it takes to refill my health bar 1.3 times. If a fight DOESN’T last that long, you were likely up against a GC build or a bad player, in which case, this whole issue is irrelevant since you (should) kill them easily anyway.
IMO, beyond a certain base amount of Vitality required to avoid getting “one shot”, toughness is the better defensive stat when a regular source of healing is available.
(edited by aarias.4016)
With all do respect, Cavalier gear is no better or worse than any other gear. It has stats, and if they are the ones you’re looking for, it is as good as anything else.
Your changes seem to attempt to turn my build into the one you’ve come up with for yourself: that’s not really helpful.
You’ve traded Toughness for Vitality which I think is a poor substitute in a build with lots of health regen, and your version has 12% lower crit. damage than mine. EP is 60 points higher in your (Exotic) version, but that is misleading since we all know how much of the DPS for this build comes from the Backstab – keeping this in mind, the 12% higher crit. damage is a much larger overall boost to DPS.
(edited by aarias.4016)
I’ve actually just posted my own builds to the “Building a better D/D Thief” thread that happen to be more focused on Tougness/Health Regen than Vitality. Like you, I see the connection and potential for high toughness builds on thieves specced for health regen. Check it out.
Here is my build (both exotic and legendary variants) if anyone is interested…
Exotic-
Legendary-
Great discussion here, I went through much the same process myself when coming up with my build(s)…although I didn’t post my results.
One thing I’d like to mention that hasn’t yet been covered is the value (both economically and practically speaking) of Mango Pie food.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mango_Pie
Constant 85 health regen per second, and you don’t have to hit anyone to get it (this is the key). Also, since Mangos are purchased from a Karma vendor, this food is generally ~40 copper each – very cheap. As of this moment, I prefer the Mango Pie to Omnomberry Ghost/Pie for the simple fact that heals are ticking away throughout the entire duration of an engagement. Get spiked and have to stealth/recover? Tactical retreat? Waiting for conditions to clear? Mango Pie still heals. In my opinion, the D/D thief is most vulnerable when visible and engaged, and choosing Mango Pie over an Omnomberry option allows you to retain the healing, regardless of the situation you are faced with.
My point, of course, is irrelevant if you’re in a strict 1v1, or facing a low-skill player, but my own experience has shown that this is rarely the case (at least in T1 WvW, I play on SoR). You lose the damage output of Omnomberry Pie/Ghost, but I have found the additional healing provided to be worth the trade in many situations.
I like the concept since it encourages servers to defend and hold objectives rather than an endless cycle of capping. The only hesitation I have is that a system like this would more heavily favor timezone coverage vs. skill. The server with the highest off-peak population would be at more of an advantage than they are now since they could hold objectives for much longer than the low population off-peak servers.
A nice message, but the video, IMO is yet another example of how golem rushes in this game are currently unbalanced. An army of golems will chew through two gates faster than defenders could ever hope to respond.
IoJ also has a [RUN] guild. It is different from the SoR [RUN] however.
That explains it, thanks!
1 2