Guild Wars 2

Playing the game the way you want implies that the person you are facing has that same right. If they WP or flee why does it bother you?

Azukas.1426:

saerni.2584:

This is just a “nuhuh” “uhhuh” argument at this point.

I mean, I’m sympathetic to the fact most players don’t know how to fight this and die to it. When I face a team with a good S/D condi player I have to hope my team can handle the build. I tend to attribute that to experience though. Most people aren’t used to fighting a thief with hit and run attributes as high as sword can get.

Same for facing a good enemy thief on power who just assassinates my teammates. Hard to win when your guardian is getting instagibbed (because not good at the class) and the enemy thief keeps your team feeling the pressure.

Ranged pressure really screws up this build. It has a hard time getting stealth and the evade frames aren’t that good. But, that’s the thing. Most people don’t bring ranged pressure and let the thief string them along long enough for their health to disappear.

Let me spell it out for you.

1. I got plat playing s/d condi thief and I don’t play thief

2. The biggest person refuting that this build isn’t OP is Sly. He said he beat a top 70 player in like 20 odd duels w/out that player winning a single duel. I beat him with ease and I’m not a top 70 player or thief main. In fact when we both used d/p meta build and dueled I beat him at that too. How is that possible? I know someone here isn’t telling the truth and it ain’t me.

At this juncture in the thread the evidence I’ve provided shows this build is OP. The people refuting have zero evidence it is not, or have any of you countered my evidence. You’ve just used your opinion.

Sad I know more about thief….

You have not demonstrated anything as the build can be countered quite easily just as the Dblossom thief can be countered. You continue to base your arguement on using traits and utilities that are not even part of S/d.. Take panic strike out of your build and you can still use the immob to lock people down in a caltrops field, steal to apply poison , dodge to apply bleeds via impaling and uncatchable , use venoms, use Impairing daggers , use Confusion off BA and only lose 2 poison stacks per 5 ini spent.

Were the poison add on immob removed tomorrow, this build could be tweaked with the add of another utility or trait to get close to that equivalent of damage back. As example you could trait needle trap as a utility with deadly trapper , pre cast on a steal and add 3 bleeds 3 poison 5 vuln and gain 5 stacks might every steal in addition to what you get off steal today all of this using 0 INI.

Put trappers respite in and on a heal you can add another 5 vuln , 5 might 4 poison and immob and three bleeds.

One added advantage CS has over DA is with the Fury and might stacking there less reason to take TOTC. This frees you up to get quickness via Burst of Agility. I just love quickness on sword.

That said it IS hard to give up improv.

I also have a s/d build that use SA and it a lot of fun and very effective at boon theft.

I expect we will see more s/d users in DE as well as that offers some very real options.

There was a brief surge of these in WvW , but the people learned to adapt and counter it and I have not seen one in a while. The very nature of PvP seems to lead to there being more people fixated on the meta and unwilling to change up their builds because it will affect their defined “roles” and how they approach a given map to maximize points.

Rather then adapt and change up their builds or how they approach a given problem, anything that might upset the defined meta is seen as OP and immediate calls made to nerf or remove it.

This at the same time they complain about stagnant gameplay and the lack of build variety. This not limited to S/d condition. Virtually every build from DH traps to Deathblossom thief got the same type of reaction.

S/d power and virtually any decently constructed power thief will wreck this thing and as Saerni pointed out it weak to ranged pressure but heaven forbid people bring weapons to a PvP match not proscribed by the meta.

I am reminded of Henry Ford who when commenting on his Model T Ford said words to the effect of “you can get the car in any color you want as long as it is black”.

One of the best tools i found to learning how to play thief is getting beat consistently by another class, rolling up that class and trying to determine the build used to beat your thief and then taking that other class against a thief and seeing how they beat you.

Westenev.5289:

babazhook.6805:

People advancing this meme also ignore the time factor in a condition build versus power.

A simple example. I came across a person who was AFK while I on my condition build. I did not know he AFK, but that not the point. I did my full burst of condtions to get those ticks to start going. That person had enough TIME to come back from his AFK, cleanse, retreat and reset.

Had I been on my power build I would have had done damage in those few seconds he was afk to down him directly, He would not have had TIME to recover. Had I been on a power build with less ferocity and precision, I would have generated damage quicker then that same condtion damage build though total about would have been closer.

I disagree with this statement, and call questions on your tests. Some specs, such as Scrapper, can handle power damage very easily (if anything, they are carried by their passives), while classes like Ele can deal with condi’s very well with an earth/water spec.

If you hit both classes with those respective damage types, I can assure you the other player would have ample time to afk, come back and recover. So doing tests based on builds that are designed to take certain types of damage is kind of bias.

This is a difference in classes. It does not change my point. There are some few classes that have passives that can cleanse conditions as well. I am pointing out that conditions still need to tick over time and still need ramp up time to get those high ticks.

I am not sure where you are calling into questions my tests. I gave a real world example. Are you claiming it did not happen? It was simply an example to reinfocre how had I been on my power build against that same target , I would have generated more damage in that window of time I had..

One more time. Bosses have many hundreds of thousands of hit points. They are akin to running the marathon wherein the Usain Bolts of the world would not win the race to the finish. Players have a fraction of the hit points of a boss and are more akin to 100 meters than 26 miles.

In order to make accurate comparisons between the damage output of builds you can not really translate the experience in a boss fight with that in WvW or PvP. There way too many factors to consider such as those passives, the cleanses, the protection, the invuln the tells and so on.

HOW a condition build gets to those 10k ticks (deemed the power equivalent) is as important as how a power build gets there and it is more then just not needing precision and ferocity. My real WvW scenario showed TIME is one of those other factors as others have tried to point out.

How much of a given builds damage come form its condition or power component EVEN if a strictly a condition or power build also has to be factored in. As example on my power warrior who has ZERO condition damage in his build, when I switch to sword I can easily generate 2k+ ticks from bleeds. In a condition build you can often generate more damage from the power component early in the fight when your condition stacks are not built high enough.

When we do a damage over time calculation you are probably going to have to do use Calculus to get a more accurate understanding of the damage output of conditions versus power.

Now I certainly feel that there certain specific builds that can ramp up that condition damage too quickly . If these types of abilities are on longer cooldowns it manageable. If a condition build can do them with much greater frequency then that needs looking at. These can be addressed on a case by case basis and it my feeling there only a few skills that might be overtuned in this regard.

I do NOT agree in any wau shape or form with making toughness mitigate condtions. It a bad idea and I have already outlined all the reasons I think it so.

Einlanzer.1627:

I still think the main issue with power vs condi is not the total capable DPS, it’s the fact that so much of condi’s effectiveness is weighted toward the condition damage attribute, while power builds rely on three separate attributes to be equivalently effective. This means that condition damage builds meet the same benchmarks with much greater ease and flexibility, allowing for better hybridization, defense, support, or maximizing damage. If anything, power builds need more defense and utility, so the opposite should be true.

I also think that conditions in general have proliferated a little too much, and that both condi and condi cleanse dominate the game to the point of absurdity. I think this is why it appears so imbalanced – conditions were originally intended to support direct damage, not replace it.

That’s pretty broken.

You would be wrong. The peak damage that can be accomplished by a condition build is more easily reached. That does not mean it is equivalent to the peak of power damage.

People continue to state the “three stats needed” like it a religion without bothering to examine the real outcome which is just the amount of damage inflicted in a given time period.

As example. I can take a Condition build thief , not traited for power at all and having none of it with the base 4 percent crit rate and on each SINGLE shot of the AA on a p/d condtion build, do more power damage then the single bleed tick gets me.

the bleed tick from that single shot has to tick almost three seconds for the bleed to do as much damage as the single power component of that same build did.

People advancing this meme also ignore the time factor in a condition build versus power.

A simple example. I came across a person who was AFK while I on my condition build. I did not know he AFK, but that not the point. I did my full burst of condtions to get those ticks to start going. That person had enough TIME to come back from his AFK, cleanse, retreat and reset.

Had I been on my power build I would have had done damage in those few seconds he was afk to down him directly, He would not have had TIME to recover. Had I been on a power build with less ferocity and precision, I would have generated damage quicker then that same condtion damage build though total about would have been closer.

The “three stats needed for power” does notT translate to Condition builds doing equivalent damge with only one stat needed. The "Three stats for power " means I have more opportunity in a power build to sacrifice survivability for more damage.

DPS stats moved over from fighting bosses in raids or against Golems do NOT accurately transfer over to PVP and WvW. Those measurements are made against AI over an extrended period of time , with that same AI having many hundreds of thousands of “hit points”.

Saying the class that does the most damage against those bosses is best at delivering damage is akin to saying the best runner of the 26 mile marathon is faster then Usain bolt.

If all you have to run is 100 meters , then it does not matter how fast that Marathon runner can run 26 miles. Usain bolt will beat him to the finish line.

Works like a charm. With the lower ICD this one of my go to skills across every build. It right up there with SOA.

Andaras.9317:

I sincerely don’t know why people always think that condi builds absolutely need expertise in order to be a condi build. Yes for a maximizing damage standpoint yes but under normal circumstances a reduced crit rate won’t hurt your DPS enough.

A simple example would be a ranger shortbow or condi mesmer. Give either of them condi damage/toughness/vitality and spec for defensive utility and they’ll outlast any power build, even against a full bunker anything.

And as many people have mentioned, many attacks with condi builds can inflict 3-5 conditions on a single attack and the damaging conditions are usually covered by a single stack of vulnerability or cripple.

There has to be a universal armor against condition damage. One type of damage shouldn’t have a means of mitigation while another doesn’t. Imagine if the armor stat didn’t exist and all direct damage inflicted their full amounts. That’s what conditions do unless you’re on of the few classes who have traits that reduce condi damage.

You do not absolutely need precision or ferocity to do a damage, and lots of it , in a power build either.

My warrior can get the equivalent of 500 precision ou of a trait. Runes and traits can guarantee the equivalent of 2100 precision. Fury adds the equivalent of 400+ precision.

To your point on a person using power, toughness or vitality in a build and outlasting any they face. Not true. Otherwise power builds would all be in soldiers. A power build optimized for damage can take these guys out as readily as he can take out a guy in soldiers. It might take a few more bursts. All you need to to get those extra burts is to use cleanses properly and use avoidance techniques as you would against any power build.

I am sorry but when I see someone standing under a thief doing his deathblossoms swinging away at said thief, that person is NOT using damage avoidance techniques and has no cause to complain if he suddenly finds himself overloaded with conditions, just as a person who does nothing to ward off a p/p unload has cause to complain about the 10+K damage a single unload can lead to. (Yes I do see people doing this with regularity.)

Now here the big difference.

Once that 10k unload lands, the damage done . Once three or 4 of those Dblossoms land, you still have many seconds of ticks before 10k damage done and you can still prevent all the remainder damage they will do via a cleanse.

A cleanse mitigates condition damage to a greater degree then armor and toughness mitigates power damage. Obviously there a tradeoff in that cleanses have to worry about cover conditions.

Finally I am not sure why you conflate expertise with crit rates. Expertise adds to condition durations and ABSOLUTELY increases overall damage. Others have suggested this can all be done via gear and sigils wherein a single condition focused on. This will lead to less overall condition damage then those builds that have access to multiple conditions and choose to focus on increasing durations across all of those conditions.

In the traits of any given class , there multiple sources of precisions, ferocity and power available. Outside one trait I know of the ONLY way to add expertise is via gear.

mulzi.8273:

The biggest issue with condi is how it is applied. In a power build, the majority of the skills you have to physical hit your opponent. Your opponent can block, dodge, stack armor, reflect, etc. With condi, the majority of it is applied by aoes. Its a brain-dead meta.

Look at quantify. Every single class, with the exception of Guard, has a condi build as the top dps/meta. Thats an issue on the raid/pve/fractal side of things. On the wvw side, i call it the chicken crap specs. You have a bunch of front line guards, with the rest of the zerg backline spamming condis. And roaming? A large majority of roamers are condi. And that ‘tactic’ consists of spamming condis and running around/stealth/etc like a chicken with your head cut off hoping you can spam condis enough that your opponent runs outta cleanses.

I know why Anet is going the condi route: Condi is a way that eliminates issues with their hardware, where ping connection, lag, etc which affect power players way way more than condi.

You made the claim that the majority of AOE attacks are condition based. Can you provide evidence of this?

I would point out that cleave is considered AOE s example and the majority of weapon skills with cleave favor power. A skill does not have to be ground targeted to be AOE. AOE is defined as attacks that damage multiple enemies in a given area. Drop the hammer, as example damages 5 foes in a given area, that is AOE.

To ground the ground targeted and persistent subset of AOE type damage. We have traps, wells, marks and things like meteor shower and the like.

DH Traps are AOE , Power based.

Ranger traps tend to be condition.

Thief traps a mix.

Majority of Necr wells andmarks to to condition based. Majority of Mesmer wells power based. Majority of Ele AOE skills, power based.

I really do not see evidence that the AOE type atacks favor conditions.

PookieDaWombat.6209:

Absconditus.6804:

What in the flying.. In what world aren’t condition bursts about as telegraphed as any physical bursts. When did you ever experience a condition-build compete with the ludicrous damage dealt by let’s say a Thief doing the good old Mug > Cloak and Dagger > Backstab > Heartseeker combo over the span of about a second, maybe three? Sure, you can mitigate it through quick reaction and anticipation, but that freaking goes for condition applications too. You can dodge the application of a condition, it needs to bloody hit you. You can evade the application. You can block the application of a condition. You can invulnerability block the application. (Unless there’s Unblockable effects in play of course.) A whole lot of burst application comes from fields too, specific locations that you can avoid or at least get out of before they start to properly hurt.

When I am facing a Power-based build, my mitigation are dodges, evade skills, blocks, invulnerability, mobility skills to re-position myself with and get health back, healing skills, cleanses, Protection and then some. There is practically no difference when it comes to facing Condition-based builds. You use dodges, evade skills, blocks, invulnerability, mobility skills to re-position yourself with and get health back, healing skills, cleanses, Resistance (which trumps Protection with it negating the damage completely) and then some. When I am out of the majority of my mitigation against a Power-based build, I’m certainly getting hit with more physical damage right after to finish me off.

…

In WvW actually. There was no standing against a necro condi/epidemic bomb and there is no telegraph for that. One second you are standing and the next you’re dead. You were lucky if you had a half second to react to it. And I’m talking this could take out whole groups of people. even in smaller group scenarios, coming up on a condi necro and condi ranger or thief means you’re dead. Full stop.

Epidemic relies on first applying conditions on a single given target and then spreading them to others standing close to that target. All of those intitial condition apps applied to the “carrier” had tells or could have been cleansed or avoided to a degree.

While i usually roam (where epidemic is of little use) when I did run with a zerg and found myself layered up with conditions I retreated from the group to cleanse or die. If an epidemic used on me it would not affect everyone else.

The reason it got as powerful as it did before the changes to it was people would IGNORE condition cleanses entirely and rely on resistance. Those individuals than became a liability to the group as the conditions would pile on and be spread.

I can use that so called “condi burst” of #2 dodge steal dodge , on p/d and p/p as well. It hardly going to kill anyone that has more then one brain cell.

If this indeed “only about PvP” the quality of player you have there that can die to that rotation is pretty low.

Use a Shortbow if the other player is just going to stand on point and you are doing more damage. It unblockable poison apps with an interrupt. You get 4 poison apps for the use of 4 ini over 2 poison apps for the use of 5 AND can blast finish the field with bleeds added AND apply that daze on interrupt with weakness when using cluster bomb.

You also setup a field you can use your whirl off impaling on and can apply torment if traiting Pressure strike.

Khazik.8052:

this is pretty similar to something I run in WvW. The quickness makes the s/d fairly bursty, which is pretty deadly given the flanking-larcenous combo.

Also, I’m currently using leadership runes for boon duration, which is pretty interesting, and will be even more interesting with Deadeye

Yes I swapped to leadership some time ago in wvw. I really like the set as the quickness gets real in a hurry. The cleanse on using an elite does not hurt either and the loss of boon duration food made up for via 16 percent more durations using acro.

Reimia.8741:

Terrahero.9358:

Condition damage for conditions main damage
Precision for proccing traits/runes/sigils with extra conditions
Expertise for condition duration

Yep, just 1 stat.

Then my conditions ignore Toughness and Protection, but they suffer from -duration, heavy condition removal and Resistance.

Explain to me why when a Thief does to much damage people call out the Thief, or if Revenants deal to much damage with CoR people call out CoR.
However when someone does to much damage with Conditions, it’s ALL Conditions that need to be adressed (read: nerfed hard). Despite the fact there are many builds that use Conditions that are balanced or even underpowered.

Maybe i should start doing that too. Gunflame does to much damage, nerf all Power stats by 20%.

Horrible logic. Everyone saying Precision and Expertise are necessary feel free to explain to me why Dire isn’t available in sPvP then? Because it’s completely rigged as a setup, you would get way more out of just the condition stat than someone running just power.

Soldiers is not in PvP either.

You can not use “what is allowed in PvP” as proof of anything given the nature of the format.

It is premised on matches of random team members trying to take objectives and be the first to reach a given number of points. If gear was allowed that provided for ever more ability to survive , matches would drag on too long and people would drop out of the same leaving other team members at disadvantage.

When one enters WvW there no loss is someone has to leave. It is also easier to focus down individuals that are tanks simply because of the overall numbers.

Both IR and PR are good choices. PR not only removes conditions , but gives close to full time regen and while it might not seem a lot, through the course of a fight this adds up.

Both PR and IR have the same downside in that you can not always control when they go off. Ie I have used a shadowstep to cleanse conditions and had IR fire up when I was in no real danger and then not there when it later needed.

Upper hand a good skill, but with the nerf to its ICD and the boost to Don’t stop, I prefer don’t stop. Immob immunity and a double cleanse on #2 is just too good. With trickery traited I never found INI a problem .

By the way, get any s/x build working with quickness and you can really lay the hurt on. I would always take burst of agility over TOTC. The might/swiftness added by TOTC just does not do as much for you given it only a single might stack and you have pretty close to full time swiftness out of acro.

Given a condition builds can not really take advantage of Crits or Ferocity in their builds as far as conditions go, they reach the UPPER limit of what they can do quicker.

Not only that but that upper limit is pretty similar across all classes. Once you push Condition damage stat to its max there little you can do to make it tick harder EXCEPT.

Add more stacks of a given condition. This more prone to being cleansed outright. This is why burn Guardians re generally not as dangerous in a Condition spec as it easier to get at the burn for the cleanse.

OR more importantly adding different types of damaging conditions so multiple conditions tick at once. Be it Confusion, torment poison burn or bleed if you get more stacks of different conditions on your damage will jump all taking advantge of that same condition stat. This in essence is the “multiplier” in condition builds and works in those builds much like Precision and ferocity.

If you got 10 stacks of bleeds and are running at 1700 condition damage putting on 10 stacks of poison will better then double the ticks.

This means that the more generic condition duration you can get the higher damage you can get. It is better to have 50 percent added confusion . torment and bleed duration than it is to have 100 percent bleed duration.

This of course depends on he Class being played. If you on something like Guardian with little access to anything but burn than getting that boon duration on burn is better.

If on a thief that can get a good number of poison AND bleeds on along with reasonable torment and confusion, I think you better off with more generic durations.

The reson this topic goes no where is because the original poster has not made his case that the build OP in any way shape or form.

Easier to play does make something OP. I find warrior easier to play then engineer. That does not make warrior OP. There is little risk on using Shadowshot when I am on my d/p thief but the reward as far as damage goes is generally higher then those 6 poison stacks add.

The original poster indicated he had no issues himself dealing with the build. I have no issues dealing with the build. That some might does not translate to the need to nerf it.

P/d is much more dangerous as a condition build and can trait all the same things and more as far as conditions go. This is simple fact yet the original poster suggested this not an issue because it more predictable.

Taking a build because it less predictable is not a bad thing. The reason i play s/d POWER is because I like the unpredictable nature of the build. I do not think having a build that is not as predictable as opposed to one that follows the same rotations where you know what the opponent going to do before he does is bad for the game.

Azukas.1426:

babazhook.6805:

By the way no matter how one tries to spin it Condition s/d adds 6 poison for the use of 15 ini which is around 800 damage per tick.

Claiming one has to factor in all of the other traits and utilities as being “part of s/d” is no different then my claiming s/d cleanses 5 conditions in a second for 0 ini which the build I linked to can in fact do thus concluding it “op”. If you want to include all of the other traits that add conditions as being part of s/d then any trait or utility that REMOVES conditions muct be considered part of any given weaponset.

The build I linked to is not even taking all the cleanses that are available to it.

We’re not talking WvW we are talking PvP.

You’re build in terms of PvP has zero redeeming qualities. You can’t team fight, duel on side points, or even play a decap +1 roll. The s/d condi can do ALL of those things albeit not as mobile as the D/P dash meta build. In fact in other threads PvP player s post builds that are very similar.

Please no one really cares about WvW when talking game balance. The mode isn’t balanced in the least.

Thank You

This is the thief topic. If you want to talk PvP only use the PvP topic.

I really do not care about PvP so please do not presume to tell me what I should be interested in. You represent yourself and not “everyone”.

That said The build I refrenced will work in PvP . It can team fight better then s/d condition. It can duel on point, better then s/d condition and it can play a decap role just as s/d condition can. Indeed if you look at th other thread on s/d PVP players post similar builds.

THAT all said, it still changes none of my points. Whther it S/d condition in WvW or in Pvp all it adds is 6 POISON for 15 ini. All of the other condition adds you refer to come from other skills and utilities.

By the way no matter how one tries to spin it Condition s/d adds 6 poison for the use of 15 ini which is around 800 damage per tick.

Claiming one has to factor in all of the other traits and utilities as being “part of s/d” is no different then my claiming s/d cleanses 5 conditions in a second for 0 ini which the build I linked to can in fact do thus concluding it “op”. If you want to include all of the other traits that add conditions as being part of s/d then any trait or utility that REMOVES conditions muct be considered part of any given weaponset.

The build I linked to is not even taking all the cleanses that are available to it.

MidoriMarch.8067:

S/d condi thief is actually quite viable.

I climbed up to top 133 in pvp last season with s/d condi though i stopped playing pvp right after i finished my backpack. I would have climbed up more if i was keep playing

and that was my first time playing s/d which clearly shows it is easy to play low risk high reward compare to power s/d.

btw whoever said s/d condi #2 only applies 6 stacks of poisons in total and 800 ticks thats totally bs dont forget u can add torment (trickery) + additional poisons torment bleeds from DA trait + via spam dodge caltrops/Lotus + switch weapon to proc geomancy doom sigils too thats easy 12+ stacks of both poison and bleed on top of torment + confusions with perplex runes.

And u can basically juke from 900 range and escape out from 1200 range mobility.

Of course its not an immortal build but it surely is an easy op build to play even with low skills/experience

[img]https://i.imgur.com/o1GyMNI.jpg[/img]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/N4v7C6J.jpg[/img]

One more time, you are adding in skills UNRELATED to s/d and implying that this a problem with s/d.

I can use caltrops and all of those other things on any other build.

S/d has 6 stacks poison for 15 ini. Bring in your OP s/d condi build against a “high risk” s/d power build and the power build will destroy it.This is an issue with people being unable or unwilling to learn how to counter a build choosing instead to call for a nerf .

This is the power build I use in WvW. S/d condi can not touch the thing and the s/d power has the same “juke” capabilities with a much greater ability to generate damage.

S/d condition relies on most of its spike damage on its utilities, that being the steal cycle and Caltrops. S/d power can cleanse cover conditions at will meaning its inherent #2 cleanse (which in fact can clean 2 conditions every use) can peel those off faster then they are applied.

S/d condition relies far too much on POISON. The confusion and bleeds it can apply are minimal and its methods of application those others quite easily avoided. Withdraw alone on its less then 15 second cooldown rips away the bulk of conditions that s/d condition builds add. PR is on a lower cooldown then is s/d conditions steal.

The build I link to performs against any condition build.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQRAsY6al0MhinYvTwwJw/EH7EV/tWw5cHA1Wb6Xit4KA-TlBXABlu/gL6HWWJWNKBvV9HAUeAA-w

While I do not PvP the build leaves out sigils and consumables so should translate well over to the same. It generally runs at 20+ stacks might at all times. S/d condition is rather easily neutralized .

Choppy.4183:

babazhook.6805:

I will tell you what. Next time our two servers face off you get on your d/p and SB thief and I will get on my roamer warrior and you let me know which map you will go roaming on. You can then show me how just by using SB and D/P you can flip those camps while my warrior there just by your using dodges and kiting without entering stealth.

You’re saying you don’t know how to do it on your thief? My bet is you do, and a better test of it would be me on my warrior and you on your thief.

Just run me around a hut, use shortbow and shadow step, and watch how easy it’ll be for you. And that’s me competently playing a speedy build. Pity the poor necro.

You suggested that all a thief has to do is dodge and kite wih SB in order to kill an enemy.

I want you to back up your claim. You do know shadowstp is on a 50 second cooldown? You do know that if you use the port on SB it does little damage as it eats ini? You do know that if your thief runs around a building it YOUR los that is blocked?

Are you trying to flip the camp or are you just trying to run in circles?

The reason I suggest you get on a thief and LEARN the build is so that you can better understand what its strengths and weaknesses are so you can counter the same. You have already all but admitted you can not deal with one and I see little reason why I should get on my thief and establish that the case.

The S/b d/p combo is the most common on thief. D/p has no ports that allows for “kiting” and is not really made for kiting. If you want to kite in the scenario you outline this means sticking to S/b with the port on number 5 using 5 ini , meaning 3 uses tops with no damage done.

If you truly believe a SB thief can beat a warrior or other class just by kiting , I can only wonder why every thief not out there using SB.

Choppy.4183:

babazhook.6805:

I tend to get testy when people misreprsennt what I said when they respond to a post I make as you did in your first response to me. The ORIGINAL post mentioned theifs high access to stealth. How on Earth is my poiting out using stealth on point is NOT useful off topic?

I merely pointed out that STEALTH thieves could not contest points. I was not talking about dodges. You brought that up.

Can you point out where I stated, as example, that thieves that could not stealth were “boned” when taking a camp . Do you understand that not all thieves spam dodges or rely on dodge builds?

I mean, the original post emphasized mobility and evades more than stealth and said nothing about contesting. A boatload of posts had been made after the original post and before your first post, the previous seven posts weren’t talking about stealth at all, the immediately previous post gave a perspective on roaming, roaming was the subject of your post, and you didn’t quote anyone. So it wasn’t clear who you were talking to or what you were responding to.

Then, for my part, I directly addressed your claim by pointing out that thieves have better potential than all other classes to have the advantage in the situation you described, and that stealth hasn’t been the primary defense strategy pretty much since HoT dropped. I also quoted your original post in full.

Frankly, I don’t see how I misrepresented anything you said.

I will tell you what. Next time our two servers face off you get on your d/p and SB thief and I will get on my roamer warrior and you let me know which map you will go roaming on. You can then show me how just by using SB and D/P you can flip those camps while my warrior there just by your using dodges and kiting without entering stealth.

Choppy.4183:

babazhook.6805:

I DO play a warrior and I do roam with it, and I know exactly how well it perfroms against theives when flipping or defending camps . I also face many warriors who are much better able to deal wit thieves than you suggest when I am on my own theif.

I suggest you get on a thief and play one for months on end and you will run into those warriors.

That said.

You did not bother to read my first post, assumed I was responding to you when it was generic and then choose to misrepresent what I said.

Further debate on this manner is pointless.

You’re off topic. You said,

babazhook.6805:

“Spamming stealth” will very often see an objective lost to a single enemy player because all that time you were stealthed saw the circle up go his way.

And I merely pointed out that a thief is perfectly capable of contesting a camp against enemies without using stealth. In fact, I’d go so far as to say that a high mobility thief is probably best equipped to contest a camp when compared to other classes.

It doesn’t matter if you play both thief and warrior (I didn’t even mention warrior), it doesn’t change the truth of that. I’ve no idea why you seem testy about it either.

I tend to get testy when people misreprsennt what I said when they respond to a post I make as you did in your first response to me. The ORIGINAL post mentioned theifs high access to stealth. How on Earth is my poiting out using stealth on point is NOT useful off topic?

I merely pointed out that STEALTH thieves could not contest points. I was not talking about dodges. You brought that up.

Can you point out where I stated, as example, that thieves that could not stealth were “boned” when taking a camp . Do you understand that not all thieves spam dodges or rely on dodge builds?

As to playing both classes. I spend the vast majority of time in WvW roaming. I play both warrior and thief. It is pertinent because i can compare how well they perfrom against one another when roaming. Warrior IS a good roaming class. That it does not have stealth or the mobility of the thief does not change that.

Choppy.4183:

babazhook.6805:

You do not play thief. First off if you can remove stealth access from a thief, even one that uses dodges, you have removed a good deal of defenses. My post mentioned steath specifically and did not refer to dodges.

Secondly I DO play warrior. If I come into a camp the same time as an opposing thief and can prevent that thief from entering stealth due to the mechanics mentioned , my chances of winning go up exponentially.

Contrary to claims made . thief does not have infinite dodges. Added to that the weapon evades are easily read and there should be no reason a warrior can not time his attacks to hit said thief in their vulnerable frames.

Warrior will always have more attacks then a thief has dodges and the more of those attacks used that force thief into expending a dodge or evade , the more followup attacks that will hit. I know I mentioned it to you before that a warrior using some of those physical skills (kick, stomp bulls charge as example) can much better counter an evade thief then can a warrior that traits endure pain and all defensive utilities.

I said evades and mobility, not specifically dodges (didn’t say “infinite dodges” either). And I’ve sure fought a crap tonne of thieves, which is all that’s needed for this discussion.

If you’re on a warrior and you come across a halfway competent daredevil, they can mostly rely on shortbow and LoS to keep you from getting the cap, though there’s also shadowstep, dodges, staff movement (if applicable), sword ports (if applicable), Bandit’s Defense (if applicable), etc.

And each camp has its terrain to exploit too. If you’re talking about borderlands, se camp has the huts to skitten around, ne camp has the mill and wood piles, n camp has the table and well, nw camp has the supply structure and the steps (that will force anyone without ports to go the long way), se camp has, well, everything (buildings, fences, etc.), and then s camp has the barn.

I’m able to delay a cap against most people (often groups) for a good while in some of those camps just using my mobility, and it’s not nearly as good as what most daredevils are packing.

So, to the claim that thieves are boned when it comes to contesting a camp due to the stealth mechanic, I say you’re limiting your horizons.

I DO play a warrior and I do roam with it, and I know exactly how well it perfroms against theives when flipping or defending camps . I also face many warriors who are much better able to deal wit thieves than you suggest when I am on my own theif.

I suggest you get on a thief and play one for months on end and you will run into those warriors.

That said.

You did not bother to read my first post, assumed I was responding to you when it was generic and then choose to misrepresent what I said.

Further debate on this manner is pointless.

apharma.3741:

babazhook.6805:

Choppy.4183:

babazhook.6805:

Just some perspective on roaming as it pertains to a thief.

There is a lot of give and take and especially when it comes to those roamers focusing on stealth as defense and that is , if defending or taking a point such as a camp , your single largest defensive asset is now a laibility if facing an enemy player.

“spamming stealth” may help you survive a given encounter, but if your only goal is to survive you might as well stay parked in a tower. “Spamming stealth” will very often see an objective lost to a single enemy player because all that time you were stealthed saw the circle up go his way.

You know as well as everyone else that “spamming stealth” has largely been replaced by the mobility and evades of Daredevil. Stealth is still a powerful defensive option, but the state of thief in regards to capping hasn’t been what you described since HoT dropped.

You do not play thief. First off if you can remove stealth access from a thief, even one that uses dodges, you have removed a good deal of defenses. My post mentioned steath specifically and did not refer to dodges.

Secondly I DO play warrior. If I come into a camp the same time as an opposing thief and can prevent that thief from entering stealth due to the mechanics mentioned , my chances of winning go up exponentially.

Contrary to claims made . thief does not have infinite dodges. Added to that the weapon evades are easily read and there should be no reason a warrior can not time his attacks to hit said thief in their vulnerable frames.

Warrior will always have more attacks then a thief has dodges and the more of those attacks used that force thief into expending a dodge or evade , the more followup attacks that will hit. I know I mentioned it to you before that a warrior using some of those physical skills (kick, stomp bulls charge as example) can much better counter an evade thief then can a warrior that traits endure pain and all defensive utilities.

Currently because of the changes to burst skills on berserker and AH interactions most warriors run baseline. A DP daredevil that’s got similar experience on their class as their opponent vs a core warrior should win nearly every time. Kite out the endure pains, bait out the resistance or save steal for stripping it when they want to get that burst skill to hit and keep them blinded.

I mean core warrior doesn’t even have a decent CC anymore as the shield bash proceeds to announce it will CC you now.

In terms of the topic mobility and stealth nearly every roamer has loads of it but I feel the more balanced ones are warrior and DH. They can have some mobility but have to pay for it with less effective utilities or weapon choices. Condi mes and P offhand thieves have far too much of all of it and need toning down.

My warrior does not use endure pain because endure pain can be kited out. Warrior has physical skills and other skills available that have CC. Too many warriors neglect these in order to take endure pain or other “passive” utilities.

To shield bash and headbutt in particular.

The tell does not really matter if you are using it against thief weapon evades. Once the thief uses vault, or DB (the two major ones) the chances of your headbutt or shield bash landing go up. You do not use these before the thief enters that evade. You use them when he enters that evade timing it for the connect to land near the end of the animation.

To the thief dodges there a reason I prefer physical skills against them over endure pain. That because they tend to force a dodge. If the thief does not dodge something like Bulls charge or kick they can be put into a vulnerable position.

This does not mean a good thief would not have other options. It my suggesting that a warrior has options to tilt the fight more in his favor. If the thief does not have stealth as an option as a defense, it follows they will rely more on dodge and evades. Force those to burn INI and endurance on the thiefs part and the the thief tends to have to withdraw and reset.

Yes the theif can always get away in such a scenario , but I am talking about defending or taking a camp or other such location as a roamer. A warrior can do this job very well. They are not as “bad” at is as is a thief in the heart of a zerg.

sneakytails.5629:

And then here comes dead-eye with the ability to remove reveal, the only real counter to stealth……

There should always be a counter to stealth, its the most powerful mechanic in the game. Allowing a class to complete negate its counter when its needed most is just bad design.

The second most powerful ability is movement, something the thief could always use to counter reveal.

Now its just flat out stupid with the teef now keeping its stellar mobility and the ability to cancel out reveal. I see thief’s taking dead-eye just to run builds off that premise.

The ability to remove reveal is on a 45 second icd. There certainly “two uses” ot it during that period but the ICD remains.

Traiting DE means giving up DrD which is a great chunk of that “stellar mobility”. The port off steal is lost , the added dodges lost and the UC for swiftness and immob breaks is lost.

The plainest armor and stuff I could find when I created this one.

Choppy.4183:

babazhook.6805:

Just some perspective on roaming as it pertains to a thief.

There is a lot of give and take and especially when it comes to those roamers focusing on stealth as defense and that is , if defending or taking a point such as a camp , your single largest defensive asset is now a laibility if facing an enemy player.

“spamming stealth” may help you survive a given encounter, but if your only goal is to survive you might as well stay parked in a tower. “Spamming stealth” will very often see an objective lost to a single enemy player because all that time you were stealthed saw the circle up go his way.

You know as well as everyone else that “spamming stealth” has largely been replaced by the mobility and evades of Daredevil. Stealth is still a powerful defensive option, but the state of thief in regards to capping hasn’t been what you described since HoT dropped.

You do not play thief. First off if you can remove stealth access from a thief, even one that uses dodges, you have removed a good deal of defenses. My post mentioned steath specifically and did not refer to dodges.

Secondly I DO play warrior. If I come into a camp the same time as an opposing thief and can prevent that thief from entering stealth due to the mechanics mentioned , my chances of winning go up exponentially.

Contrary to claims made . thief does not have infinite dodges. Added to that the weapon evades are easily read and there should be no reason a warrior can not time his attacks to hit said thief in their vulnerable frames.

Warrior will always have more attacks then a thief has dodges and the more of those attacks used that force thief into expending a dodge or evade , the more followup attacks that will hit. I know I mentioned it to you before that a warrior using some of those physical skills (kick, stomp bulls charge as example) can much better counter an evade thief then can a warrior that traits endure pain and all defensive utilities.

Just some perspective on roaming as it pertains to a thief.

There is a lot of give and take and especially when it comes to those roamers focusing on stealth as defense and that is , if defending or taking a point such as a camp , your single largest defensive asset is now a laibility if facing an enemy player.

“spamming stealth” may help you survive a given encounter, but if your only goal is to survive you might as well stay parked in a tower. “Spamming stealth” will very often see an objective lost to a single enemy player because all that time you were stealthed saw the circle up go his way.

Using breakbars and bosses as an example as to how CC is a fail is faulty reasoning as Bosses are still AI and not players. Bosses also have more hitpoints than the typical player. They have AOE type skills not available to players. They have those things not because Stuns and CC are op or damage is too much. They have those things because they are AI and AI still has a long way to go before it can compete with real live players where things like Health, skills and the like are equalized.

If in a 1v1 most classes have enough tools to deal with stuns if they choose to trait for such. If they suddenly start lowering the number of stuns or increasing the means of dealing with the same wherein a single player facing a group is able to deal with being focused down, then stuns in lower scale fights become pointless.

Stunlock IMO can only be defined as an issue IF in a 1v1 a given class can lock down another with stuns no matter how the latter class traits.

The real issue is that once we are dueling with groups of players rather then a 1v1 what was adequate to defend reasonably well against one player can never be adequate to deal with against a group.

Its less “there too much CC” in the game and more “when one player focused he can be locked down in so many ways there little he can do to survive”. That said , if I am being focused by multiple players that are not even using CC , my odds of survival also plummet. The perceived issue with too much CC runs across the entire gamut of traits and skills when we talk about larger group fights with threads started that “there too many conditions in the game” , there “too many boons in the game” and “there too much power damage in the game” and so on.

Now I tend to play thief most of the time and that class really does not have access to much in the way of stability so trust me when i say this. If stuns and CC become less usable using some of the means suggested , other classes may not like the results .

I use the leadership runes as coupled with the Acro line my WvW build has significant boon duration. I use in conjunction with the Burst of agility trait and haste itself which gives me ~21 seconds quickness with Haste on a 24 second cooldown. The swiftness off dodge in acro is 11 seconds. (real haste uptime is closer to 50 percent as burst of agility has longer ICD)

That quickness can pound out the damage and makes flanking/larcenous so much easier to pull off.

The SA build works also works surprisingly well. Traiting both BT and RS , it not too difficult to get an enemy down to no boons meaning that the sword 10 percent and the extra 20 percent from no boons on enemy up and running all the time.

This is the one i MIGHT try to get to work with DE/Acro/Sa.

In any case I encourage people to give s/d core a try. It a fun build.

I play s/d core as well. A number of versions work and mine all but identical to your version two save for my taking different runes and traiting don’t stop.

If you have a reduction of 20 percent from runes/consumables for durations and take don’t stop you are all but immune to movemnet impairing condtions and can removes one everytime you use #2.

This peels off conditions with ease as it gets past the cover conditions so easily

I have tried with Sa/acro/tr , CS/Acro/Tr as well and they both work very well. The former just peels of conditions and rips boons with ease..

Take a simple a direct example.

Match up S/d power against S/d condition.

S/d power traits acro for steal Reset , the 10 percent sword bonus and the revamped Don’t stop. This along with DA and TR which just happens to be my existing power build.

There simply no way that a person traiting condition sword of equal skill can defeat this build. S/d is just too limited condition wise. Due to swiftness add to Sword 2 everytime a power user uses 2 he is going to remove any movement impairing condition AND remove another condition. With impairing conditions 80 percent lowered baseline Immob will rarely if ever remain on an SD user.

All of the s/d condtion builds other major condition sources are on long ICDS be they from the steal with BA and Serpents , or utilities like impairing daggers or a venom.

PR alone is on a lower cooldown and will peel these off. The combination of these two skills alone will make it hard to maintain conditions on said player and Utility slots for condition cleanses have not even been used yet. The s/d condition player can not maintain condition pressure against said build because there are just not enough condtion sources in the build that are not tied to long ICD skills/

Every s/d power user is likley to trait SOA as well. This has three cleanses on an ICD not much higher then the Condition builds steal Cooldown. This is still not the full complement of sources of cleanse a s/d power user can trait for. Withdraw without any beneficial traits removes 4 more conditions.

I see a significant improvement in my ability to survive a fight using higher armor and toughness simply because said armor can better absorb “in between” damage when one is not using other measures to avoid the same.

Just as with cleanses versus conditions , one should not expect armor and toughness to mitigate anything thrown your way. You still have to and SHOULD be playing the game actively. If armor or toughness mitigated yet more damage a person would be much better able to regain full health once all of those defensive measures come off cooldown. This would make it much harder to kill high armor users in power meaning Condition builds become more used to deal with the same.

It sounds like it just looking to your external hard drive where you moved all your screenshots to as the new location for your screenshots folder. You might try going to that moved folder on the external, selecting about 100 files out of it and COPYING to another place and see if screenshot works. Then delete those same 100 files in that folder. IE get that newly created external drive folder down to under 999 files

The issue with most people that face these builds, is they do not feel they have to dodge something that just adds one stack tormen, one bleed and a cripple, or block something that just adds 2 poison.

Those cover conditions build up , the damaging conditions keep growing, and suddenly their cleanses are not enough.

Even though the damage from those various attacks is minimal, it just as important a person use avoidance measures to ensure they do not get applied as it is with that big power spike damage that might be incoming.

S/d condition , versus virtually any thief build will fare poorly given it relies so heavily on Immob and a limited sets of cover condtions all to stack one real damaging condtion which thieves can directly cleanse with ease. Using just a withdraw as a heal will take off most every condition s/d applies. If traited trickster withdraw on its own will take off torment, crippled , chilled , Immob and very likely the poison as well.

S/d THE WEAPON has a limited number of stacks of poison it can apply. It is 6 stacks for the expenditure of all INI.

That is all that has to be looked at if deeming the set OP in a condition build. Everything else comes from other traits having nothing to do with S/d. 6 stacks of poison for 15 ini is not in any way shape or form OP.

The “Crit equivalent” in a condition build is one of two major things.

1>adding more stacks of a single given condition. S/D is limited to 6 poison.

2>adding more damaging condition types. S/d can not do this well at all compared to other sets. Posion is its only inherent damaging condition. It has torment on #4 but this competes directly for INI used for the poison on number 2.

One can also argue durations can be increased but this true only to an extent given the longer the duration, the greater percentage of total overall damage can be mitigated by a cleanse.

All of the other condition adds are from traits and utiliies traited for that are NOT specific to s/d.

Any condition build that decides to trait those utilities or traits should be rewarded with more condition damage , just as power builds get more damage by traiting things like Executioner , No quarter and the like.

Azukas again simply uses the example of Caltrops and other Thief traits and utilities in giving his example. I can drop a caltrops on a person and immob him in the field with p/d as well. Basi venom is also used as an example of how a s/d user can use it to add more condtions. Well BV is used by power users to spike their damage. This is a non issue.

As Saerni points out when you get down to the basics, this is just another “I do not like condition builds” thread.

PvP condition damage is in worse shape on a s/d thief because there no condition foods and durations are limted. It hard to get durations above 60 percent meaning that Immob poison add goes all of 6 seconds. There no condition stacking sigils meaning with the best runes you likely around 1400 condtion damage tops.

On a stack of poisin you are probably topping out around 120 per tick. 6 stacks of poison the MAX off your immob spam for the cost of 15 ini is likely ticking less then 1k per.

For that same 15 INI you can do more damage with power.

Do not add in what you get off your impaling dodge or other sources. If you do that you MUST do the same for power. What damage do you get per INI spent off S/d condition?

The only damaging condition you have is 6 stacks poison for 15 INI and that just does not compare with what yor can do with 15 ini in power.

D/D deathblossom for the same INI can apply 12 stacks bleed. This is much more damage per ini spent and the base bleeds are 10 seconds without duration adds. It also has poison on the AA and can get more via “dagger training” .

P/d can pile on bleeds just using the AA at range and if wished can get 8 stacks poison for the same amount INI using the Immob. Again much more efficient.

All of that other stuff, from dodges and implaing to the poison on steal, to venoms, Impairing daggers, panic strike , whatever, is equally available to those other builds so there simply no way S/d can compete with them from a Condition standpoint.

Added to that P/d and D/d have projectile and whirl finishers. S/d is very limited in this regard.

Ultimately, As I sated before, the only real reason to take s/d over those other condition builds is to take advantage of the ports so as to frustrate an opponent. It my opinion you are equally able to do that with a power build while putting out MORE damage.

Now if you go hybrid it a different story. Hybrid will outperform s/d builds focused on conditions. A balancing act then needed to ensure you not sacrificing too much power or too much condition to get the optimal build.

ALL of this is ultimately good for the game and there no reason “s/d condi has to go”.

Azukas.1426:

babazhook.6805:

Azukas.1426:

babazhook.6805:

Azukas.1426:

babazhook.6805:

Azukas.1426:

saerni.2584:

Just doubting the accuracy of your claims.

I have no reason to lie, and I have been a very staunch supporter of thieves while being a meaner main.

I’m interested in skillful game balance only.

You on the other hand want to protect your money train.

I do not think Saerni plays s/d.

I DO play s/d in a power build and it just as effective at porting in and out to do damage. That it hard to deal with because of those ports does not translate to being OP. In other words the issue not 6 stacks poison for using all INI. It the porting in and out.

If I swapped this build to Condition and went after those 6 poison stacks using 15 ini , I would be better off going p/d which can apply immobs cheaper while having other sources of condition adds like torment and bleed and vuln.

P/d as a condition build outperforms s/d as a condition build. S/d was not played much due to other sets being superior, and now is and people are having issues with it.
S/d never had a reliable condition source and now does. I see no reason why it should not.

I do not PvP but when on my POWER build s/d get the same sort of rage whispers as to how I am spamming those ports to avoid in combat damage and thats what it REALLY about just as DB d/d thief spams evades while applying bleeds (more then s/d gets of poison by the way for INI spent).

If it about skillful play, a skilled player can deal with s/d condition just as he can deal with d/d Dblossom condition builds.

What it’s really about is 2 then dodge then 2 out will do 30-40% of someone’s life if not cleansed or get some form of healing.

Let’s do the math using my current build for every Inf Strike dodge Inf return ok

Inf strike in 2 poison stacks (2,468 DoT)
Dodge 1 bleed 1 torm (836 + 544-1,089 DoT)
Caltrops 1-3 bleeds (418-836-1254 DoT)

You add that up and you get like 5k damage from condi. You add in the power damage its another 800-1k damage each go.

You can spam that like 4-5x in a row on s/d condi thief.

p.s. saerni I never claimed to be Bad at the game or Good at the game. I simply stated I don’t play thief and got Plat on s/d condi thief. You can search my post hx and you’ll see exactly where I stand.

p.p.s. Turk – Yes its simple and that’s the problem. My concern is the entire game is used to thieves being extremely hard to play, and in the grand scheme of things they are actually quite under powered in fights. Is this build anymore face roll than a menders druid, menders engi, DH, or necro? I would like to see thieves keep their elite Hard Mode status and this build needs to go, but in context with the rest of the game how does it truly stack up?

The methodology is faulty as the greater portion of the damage you indicate has little to do with S/d. IIn fact , if I wanted, I could trait the sme way in D/P and using pressure strike off headshot and the posion off the Daggers AA generate MORE condition damage than the indicated S/D build. People will not do that as d/p just works so much better in power.

Using your exampled damage I can tell you that in a power s/d build I will get more then your example and not have to wait until it runs its duration to do so. A single Larcenous can do as much and more.

The reason people are using s/d Condi over p/d condi , is not that it does more damage, but it harder for an enemy to retaliate which is also why some will take s/d power over d/p power.

Were I to use Conditions in an S/d build, I would in fact trait into some carrion type armor. I would not even take the Potent poison trait taking Executioners instead. This mix of power/condition would do more damage overall then your pure s/d condition build taking Potent poison as the power damage comonent would be that much more significant even as you maintain that ability to port out of trouble.

No every immob gives 2 stacks of poison. Every Mug gives extra poison. Every Panic strike proc gives extra poison. Only traits in DA get the benefit from the extra poison stack so dagger AA chain does not. Also to stack 2 poison 3 bleed and 1 torment with cripple weakness and immob cover condi you do it with little threat to yourself. MH dagger cant do this.

If you want to PM for a demonstration I can break it down for you.

Also there are a few ways to condi burst to make sure you bait out cleanses.

I get over 6k damage on a single larcenous. Why on earth would I want to swap that it for that poison on Immob?

Because i’m hitting 6k damage on inf strike and a dodge and that combo lands a heck of a lot more than larc strike in a given fight.

No you are not. You are only hitting that if you let the durations go to their max. You are also counting multiple attacks. I am counting one.

Do you know how much I can get on a MUG in a power build in WvW? I have gotten 10k against squishies. Thats a heck of a lot more then your poisin will get and it does not take 10 seconds run time to reach. n?

Mug for damage. PI with interrupt and sigil of draining. If you are going to count comboes do not exclude what a power build can do. WiTH BT traited and using an evasive attack larcenous can hit for 20+20 +10 (not additive I know) before you even get crits.

Why would I want to give up more damage (which you can get in power build s/d) to get less damage?

Azukas.1426:

babazhook.6805:

Azukas.1426:

babazhook.6805:

Azukas.1426:

saerni.2584:

Just doubting the accuracy of your claims.

I have no reason to lie, and I have been a very staunch supporter of thieves while being a meaner main.

I’m interested in skillful game balance only.

You on the other hand want to protect your money train.

I do not think Saerni plays s/d.

I DO play s/d in a power build and it just as effective at porting in and out to do damage. That it hard to deal with because of those ports does not translate to being OP. In other words the issue not 6 stacks poison for using all INI. It the porting in and out.

If I swapped this build to Condition and went after those 6 poison stacks using 15 ini , I would be better off going p/d which can apply immobs cheaper while having other sources of condition adds like torment and bleed and vuln.

P/d as a condition build outperforms s/d as a condition build. S/d was not played much due to other sets being superior, and now is and people are having issues with it.
S/d never had a reliable condition source and now does. I see no reason why it should not.

I do not PvP but when on my POWER build s/d get the same sort of rage whispers as to how I am spamming those ports to avoid in combat damage and thats what it REALLY about just as DB d/d thief spams evades while applying bleeds (more then s/d gets of poison by the way for INI spent).

If it about skillful play, a skilled player can deal with s/d condition just as he can deal with d/d Dblossom condition builds.

What it’s really about is 2 then dodge then 2 out will do 30-40% of someone’s life if not cleansed or get some form of healing.

Let’s do the math using my current build for every Inf Strike dodge Inf return ok

Inf strike in 2 poison stacks (2,468 DoT)
Dodge 1 bleed 1 torm (836 + 544-1,089 DoT)
Caltrops 1-3 bleeds (418-836-1254 DoT)

You add that up and you get like 5k damage from condi. You add in the power damage its another 800-1k damage each go.

You can spam that like 4-5x in a row on s/d condi thief.

p.s. saerni I never claimed to be Bad at the game or Good at the game. I simply stated I don’t play thief and got Plat on s/d condi thief. You can search my post hx and you’ll see exactly where I stand.

p.p.s. Turk – Yes its simple and that’s the problem. My concern is the entire game is used to thieves being extremely hard to play, and in the grand scheme of things they are actually quite under powered in fights. Is this build anymore face roll than a menders druid, menders engi, DH, or necro? I would like to see thieves keep their elite Hard Mode status and this build needs to go, but in context with the rest of the game how does it truly stack up?

The methodology is faulty as the greater portion of the damage you indicate has little to do with S/d. IIn fact , if I wanted, I could trait the sme way in D/P and using pressure strike off headshot and the posion off the Daggers AA generate MORE condition damage than the indicated S/D build. People will not do that as d/p just works so much better in power.

Using your exampled damage I can tell you that in a power s/d build I will get more then your example and not have to wait until it runs its duration to do so. A single Larcenous can do as much and more.

The reason people are using s/d Condi over p/d condi , is not that it does more damage, but it harder for an enemy to retaliate which is also why some will take s/d power over d/p power.

Were I to use Conditions in an S/d build, I would in fact trait into some carrion type armor. I would not even take the Potent poison trait taking Executioners instead. This mix of power/condition would do more damage overall then your pure s/d condition build taking Potent poison as the power damage comonent would be that much more significant even as you maintain that ability to port out of trouble.

No every immob gives 2 stacks of poison. Every Mug gives extra poison. Every Panic strike proc gives extra poison. Only traits in DA get the benefit from the extra poison stack so dagger AA chain does not. Also to stack 2 poison 3 bleed and 1 torment with cripple weakness and immob cover condi you do it with little threat to yourself. MH dagger cant do this.

If you want to PM for a demonstration I can break it down for you.

Also there are a few ways to condi burst to make sure you bait out cleanses.

You are still describing a build that has little to do wih S/d. I would poing out MH dagger has poison. Cripple can be obtained via impaling as can the weakness via lotus poison trait. The only add s/d has is immob over d/p .

Panic strike, steal are NOT UNIQUE to s/d.

One more time. I get over 6k damage on a single larcenous. Why on earth would I want to swap that it for that poison on Immob? Try your build using power and you will do more damage.

If you want condition go P/d.

Azukas.1426:

babazhook.6805:

Azukas.1426:

saerni.2584:

Just doubting the accuracy of your claims.

I have no reason to lie, and I have been a very staunch supporter of thieves while being a meaner main.

I’m interested in skillful game balance only.

You on the other hand want to protect your money train.

I do not think Saerni plays s/d.

I DO play s/d in a power build and it just as effective at porting in and out to do damage. That it hard to deal with because of those ports does not translate to being OP. In other words the issue not 6 stacks poison for using all INI. It the porting in and out.

If I swapped this build to Condition and went after those 6 poison stacks using 15 ini , I would be better off going p/d which can apply immobs cheaper while having other sources of condition adds like torment and bleed and vuln.

P/d as a condition build outperforms s/d as a condition build. S/d was not played much due to other sets being superior, and now is and people are having issues with it.
S/d never had a reliable condition source and now does. I see no reason why it should not.

I do not PvP but when on my POWER build s/d get the same sort of rage whispers as to how I am spamming those ports to avoid in combat damage and thats what it REALLY about just as DB d/d thief spams evades while applying bleeds (more then s/d gets of poison by the way for INI spent).

If it about skillful play, a skilled player can deal with s/d condition just as he can deal with d/d Dblossom condition builds.

What it’s really about is 2 then dodge then 2 out will do 30-40% of someone’s life if not cleansed or get some form of healing.

Let’s do the math using my current build for every Inf Strike dodge Inf return ok

Inf strike in 2 poison stacks (2,468 DoT)
Dodge 1 bleed 1 torm (836 + 544-1,089 DoT)
Caltrops 1-3 bleeds (418-836-1254 DoT)

You add that up and you get like 5k damage from condi. You add in the power damage its another 800-1k damage each go.

You can spam that like 4-5x in a row on s/d condi thief.

p.s. saerni I never claimed to be Bad at the game or Good at the game. I simply stated I don’t play thief and got Plat on s/d condi thief. You can search my post hx and you’ll see exactly where I stand.

p.p.s. Turk – Yes its simple and that’s the problem. My concern is the entire game is used to thieves being extremely hard to play, and in the grand scheme of things they are actually quite under powered in fights. Is this build anymore face roll than a menders druid, menders engi, DH, or necro? I would like to see thieves keep their elite Hard Mode status and this build needs to go, but in context with the rest of the game how does it truly stack up?

The methodology is faulty as the greater portion of the damage you indicate has little to do with S/d. IIn fact , if I wanted, I could trait the sme way in D/P and using pressure strike off headshot and the posion off the Daggers AA generate MORE condition damage than the indicated S/D build. People will not do that as d/p just works so much better in power.

Using your exampled damage I can tell you that in a power s/d build I will get more then your example and not have to wait until it runs its duration to do so. A single Larcenous can do as much and more.

The reason people are using s/d Condi over p/d condi , is not that it does more damage, but it harder for an enemy to retaliate which is also why some will take s/d power over d/p power.

Were I to use Conditions in an S/d build, I would in fact trait into some carrion type armor. I would not even take the Potent poison trait taking Executioners instead. This mix of power/condition would do more damage overall then your pure s/d condition build taking Potent poison as the power damage comonent would be that much more significant even as you maintain that ability to port out of trouble.

Azukas.1426:

saerni.2584:

Just doubting the accuracy of your claims.

I have no reason to lie, and I have been a very staunch supporter of thieves while being a meaner main.

I’m interested in skillful game balance only.

You on the other hand want to protect your money train.

I do not think Saerni plays s/d.

I DO play s/d in a power build and it just as effective at porting in and out to do damage. That it hard to deal with because of those ports does not translate to being OP. In other words the issue not 6 stacks poison for using all INI. It the porting in and out.

If I swapped this build to Condition and went after those 6 poison stacks using 15 ini , I would be beter off going p/d which can apply immobs cheaper while having other sources of condition adds like torment and bleed and vuln.

P/d as a condition build outperforms s/d as a condition build. S/d was not played much due to other sets being superior, and now is and people are having issues with it.
S/d never had a reliable condition source and now does. I see no reason why it should not.

I do not PvP but when on my POWER build s/d get the same sort of rage whispers as to how I am spamming those ports to avoid in combat damage and thats what it REALLY about just as DB d/d thief spams evades while applying bleeds (more then s/d gets of poison by the way for INI spent).

If it about skillful play, a skilled player can deal with s/d condition just as he can deal with d/d Dblossom condition builds.

Condition damage is more to address tanking which may or may not include added armor but also includes invulns chaining blocks dodges and having healing in the build.

Without condition builds one would see a lot more tanking where a person would Turtle up , heal and restore health via other measures, unturtle fight and turtle up again to heal.

No I do NOT forget that DrD was “bad compared to the DrD” we have today because the DrD on release is virtually indentical.

People continue to make this claim without ANY EVIDENCE.

Patch 1 this 3 months after release following the patch schedule.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/updates/Game-Update-Notes-January-26-2016/first#post5957898

One major change to DrD and that bandits defense. NO OTHER changes were DrD related. There wwas more damage added to the Staff but this add was made to all weaponsets as AA damage was boosted across the board.

Patch 2 this 6 moths after release of DrD.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/updates/Game-Update-Notes-April-19-2016/first#post6122828

No changes made to DrD outside adding Vuln to dust strike on staff.

Patch 3 a full NINE months after release of DrD

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/updates/Game-Update-Notes-July-26-2016-1/first#post6270415

No changes made to DrD other then a REDUCTION in staff damage.

The claim DrD was trash until things fixed later is patently false. The WIKI can be used to get a changelog on each and every utility, skill and trait from the DrD line and what amuses me is people will advance the claims “DrD was trash until all changes made” without providing evidence of that those changes were.

You can link to each and every utility and trait.

Some examples.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Impairing_Daggers

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Escapist%27s_Absolution

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unhindered_Combatant

I would like to know what changes were made that turned DrD from Trash to mandatory > I would also point out that less then 6 months AFTER release we were already getting posts that HOT added powercreep with the elites and that the elites were mandatory. In the PvP forums people were already complaining as to how the release of HOT had lowered build diversity as everyone was forced to take the Elite specs.

As the patch history above shows LITTLE had changed in those elites for the thief since release.

The claim that dRd was bad until it was patched is bogus as is the claim that it was just rehashed ACRO given ACRO was never deemed mandatory.

Condition damage is already countered by cleanses. Any Stat added to counter condition damage would have to lead to removing cleanses.

People not traiting cleanses to deal with conditions are akin to people not traiting toughness to deal with power.

The major difference is that in order to “trait more toughness” you can usually do it with gear wherein the traits and utilities you select are not affected. With condition damage to trait cleanse you have to add via utilities and traits for the most part.

At the end of the day this “tradeoff” is the real burr under the saddle of those who complain about conditions. Vey much like those that complained about stealth but did not want to trait a reveal because “there are better traits or utilities to take” those complaining the loudest about conditions tend to be ones feeling they should only have to slap on armor in order to do so.

It all then boils down to what type of game is wanted, one wear all of these passive things deal with incoming damage (Toughness from armor for power , XXX from armor for conditions) or one where people have to make active choices in the game (Do I use this cleanse NOW or do I wait just a bit longer)

Asur.9178:

It always amuses me when people who don’t even PvP try explain how “OP” or unbalanced/balanced something is in PvP.

Having said that, I’m glad to see that there are at least some people who realize the current state of DE as being horribly bad, as opposed to DD, in every single part of the game (except open world – but literally everything works there).

I suggest that just because you PvP it hardly makes you more an authority on the game than those that do not. PvP is a rigid format and artificially limits what a build can do by that format.

To DE spec itself and how "bad " you claim it is based on a weekend of gameplay.

Some of the same voices were making the same complaints about DrD on its release including your Pvp players. It was referred to as trash and worse then any existing traitline in core.

Contrary to claims it took a year to fix DRd , outside the damage on staff itself it remained virtually unchanged since release and now is considered mandatory by many.

A traitline can not be dismissed as being horribly bad until those that TEST the thing in battle for several weeks on end do so. The beta test of DrD demonstrated we could not learn enough of the spec in a single weekend.

Outside the Rifle itself I think DD is in pretty good shape but will not form a final conclusion until I test it further. I never liked the concept of Rifle on thief on the get go , but can see how some would like it and how it can work in the existing system.

Get quickness running with p/p and the set becomes more then just a little dangerous if you pay attention to those reflects. The channel time drops considerably meaning it more likely you get the full thing in and that lowered cost even as you are better able to react with your own dodges.

The P/P channel is also one that allows movement as you use it unlike those that lock you in place. I do not PvP but use in WvW. I tend to come up on an enemy from the flank to trigger quickness, unload as I move towards or strafe and then when might stacks up switch to the other weaponset (currently s/d) port in and whack away.

With P/P I find RFI a must along with withdraw as the heal. You can use these to kite and stay at range even as you heal and restore ini just as long as you watch for reflects.
Given I do not trait DA in my p/p set as I take CS instead, I find QP works better then does SOH. If I need an interrupt I have one with #4 and if in a ranged set you really do not want to steal to an enemy.

Blocks are not as big an issue given blocks apply to all attacks outside those few that are projectile only.

To holding marked skills back. Of course there a reason to do so and that the increase of durations you get by allowing Malice to build.

If I “hold back” on using Steal Resistance, I can get 6 seconds of resistance on use rather then 3.

If I “hold back” on using Steal durability , I can get 10 seconds portection rather then 5. Further to that if in a condition build , I can save my applications of conditions until just after a cleanse performed.

IE Steal to apply the initial condition bomb , wait for cleanse, immediately apply the stolen condition afer the cleanse. Use mercy and reset mark this gaining INI from having held back on next steal. Repeat steal for another bomb. Apply condition again.

That Steal resistance above can turn into 12 seconds resistance and 6 torment stacks added to all the regular stuff traited for on steal. Trait up Improv and you add another use of each.

Plus it can be done at range meaning no need to steal into a DH sitting on his traps or a blob of enemy sitting acorss a chokepoint with AOE in between. PLUS these boons can be applied to Allies AT range meaning I can load up to 5 allies with that resistance or with quickness or might.

Added to this the range of deadeye steal is 300 greater then base. I do not have to expose myself to a swathe of ranged attacks as I steal.

Warrost.4895:

babazhook.6805:

I disagree on your claiming Blinding powder offers more then Sdaowgust. This just because I killed more then a few in WvW by knocking them over cliffs.

What a funny and healthy gameplay.

babazhook.6805:

SG was also very useful when doing rezzes or pushing people away forom an ally they were tring to rez.

You cannot use Shadow Gust while reviving, since it has a cast time.

Blinding Powder stealths not just you but your allies, is a blast finisher and blinds enemies.
I can see the uses of SG, but I would prefer Blinding Powder if I have to choose between those two.

So what if SG has a cast time. Someone is about to down your friend. You cast SG and blow him and 4 of his pals away from the downed person and then do your rez. This is like claiming you can not use shadowstep to down someone because it has a cast time.

Its the same tactic other classes use on me when I am trying to finish someone.

As to knockback blowing people over cliffs, it a tactc as old as the game itself. It no different really (save working in reverse) then using SW to pull people off walls and over chasms. It your loss if you fail yo use it to its potential.

There was also a single instance where I was the first into a circle where the enemy about to flip a tower. BP will not help here. I blew them out with shadowgust stopping the flip and giving just enough time for allies to enter the circle. Area knockback with vault is very useful.

I MUCH prefer SG over blinding powder. A Knockdown that puts me into stealth is also much better for setting up a followup attack.

Why do you think stolen skills are random? As per Reddit.

If you steal from a Revenant you will always get Steal resistrance.
If you steal from a thief you will always get Steal Precision.

And so on through all the other professions. I am not sure about all the NPCS but memory tells me I always got Steal Warmth off the tower champion.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/6ui69h/deadeye_stolen_skills/

I disagree on your claiming Blinding powder offers more then Sdaowgust. This just because I killed more then a few in WvW by knocking them over cliffs. If you use a Interrupt sigil with shadow gust you cant get up to 5 procs. SG was also very useful when doing rezzes or pushing people away forom an ally they were tring to rez.

I DO think a Cantrip cooldown warranted.

Renewing Gaze is weak and needs something else.

The stolen items are not as kittenuggesed albeit some are weaker then others and could use tweaks.