Guild Wars 2

It’s just another rubbish, bland class now.

MMO developers seem to have this thing where they actually don’t know how to balance caster-damage types without turning them into the most boring, pointless affairs in the game. Say what you want about the other classes not outputting as much damage as Ele, but they’re WAY more fun to play.

ANet’s balance team need to take their heads of their collective kitten and realise that there’s more to it than just making the numbers flat and bland for everyone. Classes need to have a personality, some flare. Ele just doesn’t have it anymore.

So yeah, going to level my thief and guard on the side but as of today… I’m done trying to like a class as poorly designed and cared for as the ele. ANet can shove it, as far as I’m concerned.

draxynnic.3719:

When it comes to the possibility of a ‘double dragon’ expansion – a few people suspect it would be Jormag and Kralkatorrik. Primordus has been fairly passive, after all, and we keep getting teased about one of Jormag and Kralkatorrik being next. That said, there has been concept art floating around lately about a dragon attacking from the sea… we could be about to see the DSD come into play.

The LW3 teaser definitely places the emphasis on Glint’s egg, so I think Kralkatorrik is a given at this point as he and Glint are intimately connected. Primordius’ involvement is harder to justify, however we know ( from GW1 ) that Glint’s offspring hid in the depths of Tyria, and we know that Primordius’ destroyers have been rampaging around the depths for a fair while. It stands to reason that – if Glint’s offspring are still alive and still in the depths – that Primordius has likely come into contact with that/those offspring, and – assuming that/those offspring are free from the influence of the Elder Dragons – that is likely to have manifested as a conflict. Also, I think that up until this point the Elder Dragons have been shown to be highly individualistic, bound by common purpose ( nom all the magics, destroy Tyria ) but not by common endeavour ( Zhaitan acted alone, Mordy only came to the fore once he was defeated, etc ), so it’s going to take something truly special to get them working to a common purpose. If both Kral and Primordius are aware of Glint’s egg – via different paths – and it being the key to defeating them ( which we know it is ), it isn’t too far of a stretch to believe that they may work together to end that threat.

I cannot see the lore or the game content presenting any connections between Jormag or Bubbles ( the DSD ) and Glint. Personally, I think Jormag is likely to be the last ED to emerge, once the others have been defeated. I think Bubbles will probably get her own expansion as well ( there’ll be a lot of Largos foreshadowing, which we haven’t had so far ( aside from a brief appearance in the original story arch ) ).

Might be wrong though. Could be Jormag. They’ll have to pull some masterful story telling, or abandon masterful storytelling all together, to get there though. Could go either way with ANet these days; they’re a hideously inconsistent bunch. I think it’s almost certainly a double dragon expansion though, because the entire ley line magic stuff points towards the idea that with two dragons gone there may now be enough magic hanging around for two dragons to emerge at once.

Meh. It’s all so complicated.

My opinion is that Glint’s Egg contains the essence of Glint, and that in defeating Elder Dragons we are empowering the egg and potentially aiding in the creation of a new Elder Dragon ( a benevolent Elder Dragon ) – Glint 2.0. I believe we know that even when we defeat the Elder Dragons, they don’t actually die and are likely to return at some point in the future ( they’re on a cycle ). That means that there must be a “deus ex machina” endgame here, and that endgame is almost certainly going to revolve around whatever emerges from Glint’s egg.

I think it’s all pivoted towards creating a new God in the pantheon of Guild Wars – The Dragon God – and that whatever is in Glint’s egg ( I think it’s probably just going to end up being Glint ) – will come at first as a juvenile Elder Dragon, but will eventually be made into The Dragon God upon the defeat of the remaining Elder Dragons, taking their magic into The Mists so that it can never threaten Tyria again.

Kralkatorrik is probably in the next expansion though; he really hates Glint. Given the gravity of the EDs plight now, Kral and Primordius may end up being a double feature in the next expansion. It’s either Kral, or Primordius ( I hope it isn’t; fire and earth has been done to death in fantasy ), or both of them together.

LughLongArm.5460:

PLZ Consider making Hall of Monuments assets available by other means

Hall of Monuments in GW2 is inaccessible for most current GW2 community and it’s a shame as lots of GW2 assets are locked behind a wall which is no longer relevant.

Giving veterans GW1 players an extra bonus and motivation was a great idea 4 years ago but now it feels an obsolete system, the chance that non GW1 players will pick up the game and invest tons of hours for the skins is very low, probably close to 0. I think that giving the veterans GW1 players free and 4 years early access on the skins is enough of a bonus.

Plz consider giving access to Hall of Monuments in GW2 by other means that doesn’t include GW1, it can be the gem store, game content, a collection achievement, all options are fine.

What do you think?

Why don’t you just… go and play Guild Wars? It’s still accessible, you can still earn the rewards… etc. etc. etc. You may consider it a useless idea, but many of us put a great deal of effort into Guild Wars, and the HoM items are a small reward and acknowledgement of that. There are thousands of items available to those who haven’t or choose not to pursue HoM points in Guild Wars, so I don’t see why they should be devalued for us purely for your own sense of entitlement.

EDIT: Of course, I’d be perfectly happy with them being added to the Gem store provided two things happen:
1) The base price for the first tier costs $500, and each additional tier adds an additional cost, up to $50,000 for the full 50 points. $50,000 dollars seems like a reasonable price to pay for what others spent 5+ years earning through actual effort.
2) That any item bought via the above pricing scheme adds a little marker to people’s names so everyone know they don’t deserve those items and have more cash than sense.

I’m obvious being sardonic at this point.

I don’t think it ruined it. I definitely think it took 20 steps backwards, and has turned GW2 into a cookie cutter MMO right up there with SWTOR and WoW. It is of course better than those two games by a country mile, but that’s largely down to the remnant content for the base game. HoT adds lots to the mix, but most of it is lacklustre and often precipitates a feeling of “I’ve done this before, many, many times”. It certainly isn’t the quality I would expect of a studio that gave us one of the most acclaimed games of all time in Guild Wars, and it most certainly does not follow the mission statement given at the start of GW2s development.

The nature of the game changed dramatically with HoT, and now it’s all about farming and grinding. I don’t really feel like I have time to do anything else, any of the fun meandering I used to do when there was no pressure to perform. As much as people say “you don’t have to raid” or “you don’t have to do fractals”, Colin turned the end-game into a linear progression affair and added the stick to the carrot where there was no stick before. I don’t have to raid, but I’m made to feel like I should aim for it. I don’t have to do fractals, but I sort of do have to do them if I want to take part in any of the more meaningful content such as raiding. “Raiding is only for the elite players”; given the original statements, I thought GW2 specifically tried to avoid elitism by gating content behind farming and grinding? I thought the impetus was to deliver a game that offered a huge set of rides without any height restrictions? That’s what it was when it first came out. That’s what it isn’t now. Everything that ANet purported to being against when GW2 first came out has been implemented in one way, shape or form by HoT. That’s on him partly, and I can see why the got rid of him… erm… sorry… why he left of his own volition. That’s also on Mike, however, and the rest of the team, and they really need to sit down and ask themselves how they bring the game back to its original, unique vision for the MMO space.

HoT feels more like a swansong for the “old” style of MMOs I specifically came to GW2 to avoid. I hope they learn from their mistakes going forward. I think, personally, that Ascended gear and raided is the biggest insult to the original mission statement of the game right now, not because it exists but because it is gated so heavily by grinding, farming and hideous timelocks. Either add more content variety on the Ascended path – to dispossess it for it’s grindy nature – or shorten the time it takes to get Ascended gear. Also, the unreasonable demands placed on players by AP dictates is stupid as well. ANet has their work cut out for them. It’s not just about living world, Mike.

One thing I would say is that there’s always been a cynical edge to GW2, where I’ve often felt like ANet are specifically trying to get me to stay in game, are specifically implementing things like timelocks and other such unreasonable mechanics, just so I’ll stay in game/log on more often, increasing the chance I’ll buy things on the store. To ANet, I’ll make it abundantly clear now: I will buy stuff because I want to buy stuff, and the time gating, the constant attempts to monopolise my time will only result in me leaving the game. It’s really that simple for most people.

serenke.4806:

Uproller.1849:

nerevar.6247:

Uproller.1849:

nerevar.6247:

Uproller.1849:

nerevar.6247:

stof.9341:

Sold Out.7625:

Because THIS IS THE EXPANSION PRICE. Live with it. You don’t pay more for the Core game. But reading is hard, I know.

This isn’t a matter of “this is the price” or not. It’s a matter of doing it in a way that doesn’t result in kittenstorms on the internet. ANet is notoriously bad at that.

It’s a matter of perception. I know that perception is very subjective but as I said, manipulating and predicting percetion is part of the job ANet should be doing.

In this case, the perception is that :
- I’m a veteran player, I paid I don’t know how much for the game and currently you can get it for as low as $20 if you do it smartly. I can let that slide since everything lowers in price over time
- The expansion comes out and costs me $50
- The expansion has one of the major features be a new class and it’ll cost me $10 more to play it cause … my char slots are maxed for some strange reason

So, as a veteran, I feel like I’ll have after the HoT purchase spent $80 to get the game, while new players will have spent $50 for more or less the same value. Yes I know it’s not the same thing, those $80 gave me one extra char slot etc… But it’s perception. And the perception currently is that I’ll have to spend $30 more than new players to enjoy HoT.

This is too much plain and simple. Hence the complaints. What ANet should have done is throw us virtual bones that are more or less worthless but shift the value perception to a point where nobody complains. The easiest would be to give a free chat slot to players that already own the core game. It’s shift the value perception by a whole $20 back.

New players will also have to drop $20 for Season 2 pack if they want to play through it and won’t be able to relive the living content that most of us veterans were able to play through. Also the core game is F R E E with the expansion. If you already own the core game it doesn’t effect your just paying for the expansion while the core game is F R E E for those you don’t have it, but y’know a SMALL amount of people will complain when they don’t get something free.

You just don’t get it. To current players, they are paying $50 for the expansion; and new players are paying $50 for the expansion and the free core game. Why such disparity exists is beyond me.

It doesn’t matter the core is free or not; it certainly isn’t free for us and we’re paying the same price as the new players and getting half of the package.

No, you don’t get it. Everyone is still paying $50 dollars for the expansion.

No. You don’t. Current players are paying $50 for the expansion and new players are paying $50 for the expansion and the core game.

There is a difference.

You’re not paying for the core game and neither are new players. It is offered as freebie while everyone still needs to pay $50 for the expansion.

Where can I, as a current player, claim this said freebie?

You don’t need it to access the expansion, you already have access to the core game.

But surely I should get an additional copy of the core game? If it’s a freebie.

Uproller.1849:

nerevar.6247:

Uproller.1849:

nerevar.6247:

stof.9341:

Sold Out.7625:

Because THIS IS THE EXPANSION PRICE. Live with it. You don’t pay more for the Core game. But reading is hard, I know.

This isn’t a matter of “this is the price” or not. It’s a matter of doing it in a way that doesn’t result in kittenstorms on the internet. ANet is notoriously bad at that.

It’s a matter of perception. I know that perception is very subjective but as I said, manipulating and predicting percetion is part of the job ANet should be doing.

In this case, the perception is that :
- I’m a veteran player, I paid I don’t know how much for the game and currently you can get it for as low as $20 if you do it smartly. I can let that slide since everything lowers in price over time
- The expansion comes out and costs me $50
- The expansion has one of the major features be a new class and it’ll cost me $10 more to play it cause … my char slots are maxed for some strange reason

So, as a veteran, I feel like I’ll have after the HoT purchase spent $80 to get the game, while new players will have spent $50 for more or less the same value. Yes I know it’s not the same thing, those $80 gave me one extra char slot etc… But it’s perception. And the perception currently is that I’ll have to spend $30 more than new players to enjoy HoT.

This is too much plain and simple. Hence the complaints. What ANet should have done is throw us virtual bones that are more or less worthless but shift the value perception to a point where nobody complains. The easiest would be to give a free chat slot to players that already own the core game. It’s shift the value perception by a whole $20 back.

New players will also have to drop $20 for Season 2 pack if they want to play through it and won’t be able to relive the living content that most of us veterans were able to play through. Also the core game is F R E E with the expansion. If you already own the core game it doesn’t effect your just paying for the expansion while the core game is F R E E for those you don’t have it, but y’know a SMALL amount of people will complain when they don’t get something free.

You just don’t get it. To current players, they are paying $50 for the expansion; and new players are paying $50 for the expansion and the free core game. Why such disparity exists is beyond me.

It doesn’t matter the core is free or not; it certainly isn’t free for us and we’re paying the same price as the new players and getting half of the package.

No, you don’t get it. Everyone is still paying $50 dollars for the expansion.

No. You don’t. Current players are paying $50 for the expansion and new players are paying $50 for the expansion and the core game.

There is a difference.

Indeed, and I can’t understand why people can’t see the problem here.

ANet are NOT charging $50 for a copy of HotT alone. They are hiding the cost of buying the core game in the cost of a relatively small expansion, then saying it’s a freebie.That hidden cost extends to EVERY PLAYER, new or old, whether you have the base game or not.

They also used a HIGHLY UNETHICAL (bordering on illegal, but not quite) marketing tactic to get people to buy the base game prior to announcing the pre-purchase by not revealing that they would be including the base game with the expansion. They purposefully withheld that information from their FAQ and on the day they released the pre-purchase they changed the FAQ to hide the fact that they’d been intentionally tricking and deceiving consumers into buy the base game.

That harsh fact is this: ArenaNet are engaging in anti-consumer practices to increase their margins, and they’re doing so with impunity. They clearly have a legal team that’s very good at avoiding actually crossing the line of legality, but they’re flown very, very close on several occasions.

And I fail to see why anyone would give a company like that any of their hard earned money.

Sold Out.7625:

BadMed.3846:

Pretty much a slap on the face of existing loyal players. You have the game? Pay for it again it you want expansion. Absolute Rip-Off.

It would make sense even if it was like $49 for new accounts and $29 for existing.

You don’t do that reading thing, do you? There’s already been multiple posts stating that the expansion would have cost that much -anyway-. The core game being free for new people is -just- a freebie. Get over it.

That doesn’t make it any better.

Most of the features coming with the expansion will be available to core players -anyway-.

Simply saying that you would have overcharged people for your product doesn’t make it better and doesn’t change the fact that you’re overcharging people for your product.

darkdomino.9578:

Gotta love fanboys… Telling someone one thing and then behind their backs doing another isn’t LYING. Right guys? Right??

Hahaha

I’d argue that it runs very, very close to being a bait-and-switch scheme.

1) Bait new customers to pay the premium for the base game by telling them they’ll need it to play the expansion, but withhold the information that the expansion will include the base game;

2) Switch the base game out for the expansion, and on the day of pre-purchase release change the relevant information to include the previously withheld information pertaining to the base game being included in the purchase of the expansion.

Bait-and-switch.

Actually illegal.

Well done, ANet ^^

briggah.7910:

Val.8265:

We did get something, the lower end of the stick.

Because we bought the game in 2012.

Because we supported them for 3 years.

Because we spend additional money with gems.

Because of us, they have the chance to make an expansion.

And because of that, we pay more for less value.

Ye, being a loyal player feels good.

Were you forced to purchased things with gems? No that was your choice.

He never used the word “forced”. You’re casting aspersions. Stop it. His point is valid, yours isn’t.

Regina Buenaobra.6193:

To clarify: $50 is the price of the expansion. We included the core game as a free bonus to make it easier for new players to get into it.

To clarify: the expansion isn’t worth $50, so you must be burying the cost of the base game in that $50 price tag, but not extending a discount to existing players in order to maximise your margins.

That’s LITERALLY the only way this could possibly make any sense whatsoever.

Unless you’re trying to claim that less content released now in the form of an expansion is worth MORE MONEY that more content released a few years ago in the form of a base game?

Is that what you’re saying?

Cause, you know, inflation has averaged about 0% everywhere that matters…

Take an economics class or something. I don’t know. You guys need help.

Between the lack of information about actual expansion content and the insane pricing model, I’m guessing this is a lame cash grab.

Just adding my voice to this rather large pile.

I bought the base game already. Unless ArenaNet are saying that the base game is now free, I fail to see why I should pay the premium on HotT as if I am a new customer. I am not. I am an existing player that’s already forked out a relatively high premium to play GW2.

Basically, you got the pricing model wrong and your marketing team clearly has limited experience with gaming demographics as someone, anyone, should have seen this one coming from a mile off. This has happened time and time again in the industry, where a game developer has arrogantly misfired and then been arrogantly stubborn about it. You should have thought about it, you didn’t, your fault.

Firstly, there should have been four editions. Even if it was only $5-10 cheaper for the standalone expansion or some form of gem bonus. Or, indeed, why not give existing players free stuff from the in-game store, or bespoke armour and outfits, or something of some value that makes us feel like we’re valued on an equal footing with new customers? Because right now it should be quite clear to you that we do not.

Secondly, you should ask yourself long and hard questions about the real (and not perceived) value of your game. Is it actually worth the amount of money you are asking, or are you inflating the price to cover your financial under-performance in the eyes of NCSoft? Does the expansion add over half the content that was originally created for the game? Or is the pricing model suggestive of an attitude from you that content is worth more after a base release? Or are you indeed not giving the base game away for free, as you say, and are in fact hiding the cost in the expansion price? All sorts of messed up right thar.

Your marketing team and accountants done messed up again. Stop listening to them.

The idea that you’d give the base game away for free, but not reward veteran customers for their loyalty, is quite ridiculous. We’re the reason you’re in a position to make an expansion. We’re the reason there’s demand for it. We’re the reason this game is still going despite your weak launch content prior to seasonal content. We spent our cash on your game so that you could make more expansions.

Why can’t you throw us a bone? Why do you have to nickle and dime us? Why is it that new players get rewarded with free content, but old players get penalised and get nothing for their loyalty?

It’s not a closed ecosystem. You’re not selling insurance or cars. You have to provide incentives for us to stay as well as providing incentives for new players to come in.

We’re loyal to you, why aren’t you loyal to us? A veteran player is for life, not just for Christmas.

SpectacularYak.6518:

As for your OP, I’d be inclined to agree with you that GW2 is not really particularly trailblazing, certainly not for anyone who wants a sandbox, or something new entirely. But you’ve soaked your points in so much maudlin hyperbole I’m afraid I can’t quite get past the eye rolling stage.

I provided reasonable outline as to why I had stopped playing the game, and my initial post – and follow up posts – were very specific in their criticisms. My point was made, and it didn’t need to be made again.

What happened next was people like you decided that I was wrong, and instead of balancing the discussion (that was being had initially), people like you decided to levy criticisms like, “well MMO obviously aren’t for you.” When that didn’t work, I was accused of trolling, and I was effectively labelled and idiot for claiming that DEs and Renown Hearts were quests, and further labelled and idiot and a troll for voicing and opinion that didn’t run in line with what the few were thinking.

The particular post I was responding to spoke from a position of authority where there was no authority to be had. The post I responded to effectively said that because I had (a) complained about problems that had driven me away from the game, (b) provided no solutions, and © specifically stated that I wasn’t willing to take the thread off on a frivolous tangent (where I would have mentioned ways I thought the MMO genre could have been improved, only to have that poster (who had already made up his mind about me and everything I was likely to say… before I’d even said it), my entire point was to be discarded.

Also, take your feckless insults and levy them at someone else. My tone was in response to the tone I was gifted by others, where as yours is just disgustingly presumptuous.

Noxu.7203:

Since you didn’t provide any input on how to make the game better, in your sole opinion (because, since I can’t speak for everyone, neither can you), then your criticism has been noted and invalidated, thank you for your time.

So because I don’t offer solutions to a problem, the problems don’t exist? So a problem is only valid if you have the solutions to that problem?

You’re either a troll, or an utter moron.

I’ve extensively detailed my reasons throughout the thread.

I’m not responding to you after this post

Yes, because I’m not willing to throw the thread off on a tangent, and – more importantly – because I don’t agree with you, I am definitely a troll.

4chan logic is so backwards.

Quench.7091:

How is something a grind if the grind part is hidden? When something is a grind it means it is a laborious task. If people don’t see it as a laborious task, because the feeling of labor feels hidden, can we still consider it a grind?

The key is in the word “shallow”, and you presume that the grind stays hidden. As is evidenced by the feedback from high level – and even a lot of not-high level – players, it doesn’t.

So it’s hidden until you realise it’s there. Then it’s not hidden any more.

Noxu.7203:

From my understanding of indelible

You address the thread like the majority are of your perspective. They aren’t. Feel free to count posts

nerva.7940:

OP, how would you improve PVE for an MMO, without making it a sandbox? ANet has pushed the themepark to its max, and i love questing/exploring in Tyria. to me it just sounds like youre burned out from MMO’s in general.

There many things I could say in response to this, but I’m not going to go down that road. I don’t make MMOs. I am a consumer. If I were to design MMOs, I would certainly spend a great amount of my time considering how current quest mechanics, current vertical and linear progression, could be done away with in favour of other systems, as well as look at other ways of presenting the “massively” aspect of MMOs.

SpyderArachnid.5619:

So because they resemble one type of quest in another MMO, means they are instantly just like every quest in another MMO? Like I said before. Questing in another MMO IS your source of experience when it comes to leveling. Renown Hearts in GW2, are NOT your source of experience when it comes to leveling. They serve different purposes.

In GW2, Renown Hearts are there to lead you to events happening in the world. They don’t provide you with sufficient experience to be considered viable for leveling off. Unlike questing in other MMOs that your main source of experience is from questing.

I’m sorry but… your argument is that Renown Hearts aren’t quests because they reward negligible experience.

They’re functionally almost identical to quests in any other MMO, ASIDE from the lack of experience. They have you pursuing the same game play. AT BEST… they’ve managed to roll up courier and grind quests into a single, neat, little package.

You’re making a really weak case for the difference between Renown Hearts and quests right now. I hope you know that ;P

Noxu.7203:

I largely disagree with the OP, greatly and utterly.

This game is similar to WoW in the way that it’s an MMO and that you level up. The dynamic events are by far, much different than going to do a quest, reading the text, and collecting 10 boar hides, and turning them in. The events all have a story to tell, through interactive playing, not by reading.

Like the many VOd quest chains in games like Star Trek Online, Lord of the Rings Online, Star Wars The Old Republic, etc? Quests that tell precisely the same style of story. “Oh no, the village is being attacked! Go outside and grind the centaurs for a bit!” Vs “Oh no, the village is being attacked! Stay inside and grind the centaurs for a bit!” Dynamic Events are just like normal quest chains, but hugely more inconvenient.

Instead of collecting 10 board hides, you’ll kill 10 waves of boars. And then, instead of killing the Elite Boar in the last quest in the chain, you’ll kill the Champion Boar at the end of the event. Very different. I can see precisely what you mean.

Noxu.7203:

Heart quests are similar to quests, but nothing alike. You don’t even have to usually do the heart quests in the same way you would do a normal quest, because as I’ve noticed, there are always events going on during the heart quests, which allow you to do them without even having to talk to the people. They are FAR more interactive and fun than just collecting boar hides.

Yes, so much more interactive and fun that you can either collect boar hides, or boar snouts, or boar ears.

Just because you give me 3 ways to kill a boar doesn’t alter the fact that I’m still killing a boar. And after killing boars in so many different ways before, you should really be looking at ways of getting me to do stuff that doesn’t involve killing boars. And that doesn’t include spawning more boars in a large orange circle. That’s a mataphor, btw.

The heart quests are simply just guides to show you where events take place, that’s all they’re meant for—if you’re using them to level up, then I would have to say you’re looking at them for all the wrong reasons.

Like… the quests in other games that serve exactly the same purpose, and reward negligible experience? :s

SpyderArachnid.5619:

One thing you seem to be forgetting. Renown Hearts are not quests.

In other MMOs, Quest are your source of experience when it comes to leveling. The bulk of your experience comes from doing quests and the mobs you have to kill for those quests. When you go to a quest hub, you pick up say 5-6 quests. Go kill 10 of this, go collect 10 of this, go talk to this person, etc. Now you go kill those mobs which give you a lot of experience, and you turn in those quests for even more experience. This is how you progress in other MMOs.

Renown Hearts on the other hand, are not reliable sources of experience. Neither are the mobs you have to kill. It is not a viable way of leveling up. They are guides to lead you to Dynamic Events. When you reach a Renown Heart, it has options for you to complete it. Go kill 10 of this, collect 10 of this, etc etc like before. But when you go do those objectives, the experience you earn is barely enough to progress. Even after you finish the Renown Heart, you are rewarded barely any experience for it.

So no, Renown Hearts are not comparable to questing in other MMOs. They are not your source of experience like quests are in other MMOs. They are guides to lead you to Dynamic Events, with tasks to do along the way. They offer a sub par reward which isn’t enough to progress with, unlike questing in traditional MMOs where the reward is plenty enough to progress.

I’m sorry but… there are quests in other MMOs that fill this purpose as well There are courier quests, and “go speak to this person” quests layered in that fill precisely the same purpose, and offer diminished rewards for exactly the same reasons: because they’re simply guide quests.

So yes, Renown Hearts are quests.

Nemmar.8491:

I dunno if i agree OP. I am not a fan of how GW2 turned out, but im not quite sure where you’re getting at. If this is the tired MMO formula, what is this revolutionary formula you are talking about? It sounds like alot of complaining for the sake of complaning. And RPG is an RPG, there is no way around it.

SWTOR is more RPG than every other MMORPG because of story, but besides that i dont know what you could possibly mean. Actually, thinking about it SWTOR gives you a shooter aswell in there, wich people love to hate on.

I was waiting for someone to come in and make this point ;D

The example you use is “An(d) RPG is an RPG.” OK, you’re right. There are certain elements that have been part of RPGs since time immemorial, but those elements do not define the entirety of the RPG genre. Compare Baldur’s Gate 2 to Mass Effect. Compare The Witcher 2 to Fallout. Compare Final Fantasy to Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic. The greatest and best RPGs are defined by their differences, not their similarities. I can play one modern RPG – like Mass Effect 3 – and move to another modern RPG – like The Witcher 2 – and have a very distinct experience. The systems in place – the actual mechanics of those games – bear a vague resemblance, but they’re also very different RPGs that approach the idea of an RPG in different ways. Of course there are some places where these titles “meet and greet”, but there are many areas where they don’t. Those differences aren’t limited to shallow alterations – of which there are some – on the “established RPG formula”. Those differences are right at the heart of those games, right at the very beginning.

An RPG now is very different to what an RPG was a decade ago. The same can’t be said of the majority of MMOs, including Guild Wars 2.

In addition to that, the presentation is very important. Simply layering over a new paint job and moving stuff around slightly isn’t very imaginative, and it doesn’t alter the dynamic of the game in any way. I’m still playing the same old MMORPG.

I can think of numerous ways the MMO formula could be diversified and cracked open, and I’d happily share those with you on another forum elsewhere. This discussion however is about the weaknesses I see in Guild Wars 2.

Anonymous.6935:

Absolutely agree. Just be happy that you can atleast get your moneys worth out of it, but quite obviously won’t be a game that you’d continue to play much thereafter say around 200 hours of actual gameplay, or maybe less, just depends when you hit level 80 really.
Still it’s good value for money in the games popular months, shame it’s going to be going the way of other poor MMO’s so quickly though!

I can see what people are saying with the value for money thing, but I think it’s cognitive dissonance personally :P

Guild Wars 2’s value is – for me at least – defined by what it says on the box, and the value the developer instils in the game with the statements they make about it. An MMO is supposed to offer a persistent experience that you can return to, and enjoy on an on going basis. ArenaNet valued the hundreds of hours of content, not just the “getting to 80 grind” but everything in addition, at the price they set. Do I feel I got the implied and stated value out of the title? No. That means that, for me, it wasn’t worth the money.

EnaiSiaion.8072:

As far as WoW clones go, it’s a pretty good one and feels like an update to WoW but free to play. It even has largely the same races.

I think that’s a big problem personally. The way you worded that highlights one of the issues beautifully.

It SHOULDN’T be a case of saying, “is this game a good WoW clone?” It shouldn’t even be a case of going, “is this game a good WoW update?”. We don’t really do that in any other genre outside of a handful of titles, and yet the opposite seems true in the MMO space. Max Schaefer from Runic said a couple of days ago that the team their have little to no intention of making an MMO out of Torchlight next. One of the reasons he gave was that they didn’t just want to make “another MMO”, and that he felt that every MMO that’s been coming out in recent years (and even before that, imho) are all just a little bit too similar.

I think it’s appalling that MMO developers and designers are happy to work in a space where the vast majority of titles are defined by their similarities, and not by their differences.

I’d been a big fan of Guild Wars, even though I only got into the game later in its life. People often say that Guild Wars was a “different” MMO, but it really wasn’t. It employed precisely the same general formula as any MMO you’re likely to play. It’s differences were largely shallow. Even the removal of the the levelling curve simply “hid” a grind that still existed. Just because something isn’t visually represented doesn’t mean it’s not there. It did however limit things down, and focused the experience around particular components of what makes an MMO. To be honest, I think it’s telling that whilst ArenaNet referred to Guild Wars as a Co-RPG, most everyone else refers to it as an MMO. For all of that though it felt like it was TRYING to be different, and that gave me the impression that with Guild Wars 2 – and the 5 years of development that went into it – ArenaNet would break the mould and reinvigorate a genre that has been stagnating under the shadow of World of Warcraft for the past eight years.

That’s isn’t the case.

For all the ArenaNet say about Guild Wars 2 being “different” and being “genre defining”, it is still very much the same MMO many of us have played before. It has quests, even if they are hidden behind heart icons and “dynamic events”. It’s got stats, and gear progression, and tiers, and dungeons… and grinding. Endless, tedious, boring, unimaginative grinding. It’s just another MMO.

I’m not going to talk about everything in the game, obviously, but there are two things I’d specifically like to mention:

Heart quests: These are quests. They use the same iterative mechanics as any quest you’re going to find in any other game. Simply by given players 1-3 ways of completing a quest does not negate its status as a quest. You go to a heart quest, you grind out whatever it is it wants you to grind out (with each subsequent quest finding new and more annoying ways to obstruct you from the goal), and then you get experience. Often you will find that the heart quest will direct you to a “dynamic event”…

Dynamic events: These are also quests, and often quest chains. In other MMOs you may find yourself directed to go somewhere to do something, and upon returning you are given another quest, etc, etc. The quest chain tells a story, sometimes quite a compelling story (for all of its faults, SWTOR often did quest chains very well). In Guild Wars 2, dynamic events fill that gap. They vary it slightly by having the quests start where you are, but they are simply a chain of quests. The ONLY difference is in the “multiple lines”, which invariably just means that if you fail, you have to kill mobs in a different location to where you would have had to kill them if you’d succeeded.

I think that pretty much sums up my problem with Guild Wars 2, and why I stopped playing the game. Quite simply, it just another MMO. The lack of subscription fee does not excuse poor, lacklustre content, and the few genuinely interesting and exciting mechanics do not prop up an other standard grindy MMO affair. Grinding isn’t fun. I played Borderlands 2 and Torchlight 2 over the weekend, and had more fun in 20 minutes than I’d had in an MMO since I started playing World of Warcraft. Every MMO I’ve played since WoW has been… well… WoW. Even Guild Wars 2.

The reason I stopped playing Guild Wars 2 is as follows: it’s a game that would be complicit in the stagnation of the MMO genre, veiling it behind a sea of shallow alterations to a tired formula that needs changing.

Kal.2376:

I think that is up to each person. If you do not want to do it that way, then don’t. I will leave a group if they are dying too much, not dodging enough etc. I personally have no interest in zerging a dungeon, so I will leave. I eventually did finish story AC being downed 3 times (no defeats), and 2 other players got defeated once I think.

So need to change the dungeon standards, just change the way you run it.

You may be willing to forgo the zerg, but the vast majority of players are not willing to do that. If you give a player two options, they will almost invariably pick the option that represented the least risk and the greatest reward. It is often not because they “enjoy” that option more, and it has more to do with the fact that they get the reward without having to take any risks.

That shouldn’t be allowed.

HakkaiRequiem.5130:

The eternal struggle between hardcore gamers and everyone else continues.

I’m not a hardcore gamer. I’m a very casual player.

Just because I value ACTUAL challenge, and think that that the risk:reward ratio is VERY important to challenging content, does not mean I’m a hardcore player.

If you do not want an actual challenge, why would you try to run the content that is intended to be challenging? I mean… it’s clear that without the corpse run exploit (which is ultimately what it is) many people would not cleared that content for how hard it is, and if the exploit didn’t exist you would HAVE to perfect your skills, or go and do something else?

Just because you WANT to do something does not mean you should instantly be allowed to do it. Just because you WANT the best gear in the game, or you want to see ALL of the content, doesn’t mean you should inherently just be allowed to do that. You should have to EARN that right. I’d rather earn it through actual challenges, things that test my abilities as a gamer.

Right now what you have is the usual lame grind.

Adine.2184:

So you’re saying discouraging the majority of players from ever doing a dungeon again is a good thing.?Interesting….

No, that’s not what I’m saying. Way to twist the concept.

I’m arguing with several notions put forward in this thread. I’m arguing with the idea that greater risk and challenge causes people to stop running dungeons. I’m arguing with the idea that because the content is there it means everyone should get to see it.

I’m arguing against mediocrity

The main problem I have is that people here are suggesting that the game’s challenging content should be grossly devalued simply because people should inherently “get to see it”. It shouldn’t, and they shouldn’t. If that content is designed SPECIFICALLY for the presentation of the game’s more challenging areas, then it should only be seen by overcoming those challenges. World of Warcraft tried to create a system where “everyone” got to see the content, and that ruined raiding for a lot of people. Prior to TBC, raiding wasn’t just about getting the gear. It was about seeing that content, and earning the right to see that content. It was a reward in and of itself to get into Naxx. It was definitely a reward to see – and then kill – C’Thun. These days, it is not a reward to see Deathwing in Hard Mode; you’ve already seen him in ezmode. The only reward is the loot, and that’s where it ends. There’s no enthusiasm for raiding any more, as can be seen with the demise of top end raiding. I personally believe it was this decision to average out the game that has led to the continued decline of World of Warcraft.

That sort of approach to design reflects a compromise on the integrity of the game; when a game losses integrity, it is sure to lose players.

In my opinion, dungeons should be set up in the following way:

The dungeon should be set up in stages, defined by the distinct boss fights and challenges within that dungeon. A player should move through the dungeon by completing those boss fights or challenges, with each challenge becoming sequentially harder. The player should then be rewarded at each stage of completion in a way that reflects the difficulty of the boss or challenge they have completed, and a final reward for completing the entire dungeon.

Each stage should require skill and ability. Regardless of whether it’s a fight, or a puzzle, or any other form of major challenge, the player should have to DO something to get a reward; that doesn’t include ghost running. It shouldn’t be a case of, “you are free to complete the designated challenges, or you are free to simply move beyond them because you don’t want to do them.”

In addition to this, players should suffer the consequences of failure in no uncertain terms. If a player fails to achieve something after a given period of time – whether that’s defined by a time limit, or a cap on deaths – the dungeon should be reset, and they should have to do it all again.

There’s nothing wrong with this sort of system, especially if each stage rewards are definitely valuable. People would still run the dungeons as, even if they can’t get past the third challenge (or whatever), the rewards would be worth their time, and progressing further in the dungeon would be a natural goal. If the dungeon design is on the ball, players will openly talk about encounters and challenges that they liked, which would inspire other players to pursue those encounters and challenges. That’s how it works in raiding (or did), and it’s how the loot game works in general. If you devalue that system, you are devaluing a central component of the game. Sadly it’s already devalued, and more value needs to be applied.

Hey all,

Just wanted to chime in with another suggestion:

We all know that ANet are going to switch off FSTs at some point in the near future.

I’m proposing that they don’t do that.

Instead, leave FSTs in place but change the way the home server mechanic works. Allow players to move characters around to different servers on the fly – in the same way that we can now – but leave those characters attached to their original “Home Server”. Keep the “no buffs” system that exists currently, but allow players to queue up for WvW, whilst on another server, for their Home Server. When they leave WvW, transfer them back to the server they were on when the queued.

When on another server, place our server tag underneath our nameplates in game so that people can identify others from other servers.

I’d also like to see designated international servers, blank servers that anyone can transfer to so that they can play with an international group. These servers could be PvE only, with no “home” population. Simply blank servers.

I don’t do it, but I’d like to be able to server hop for PvE content. I play at crazy times in the AM, so my server is dead, and I’d like to be able to jump to another server with higher pops so that I can clear DEs and find groups. That said, I don’t really want to be removed from the sPvP and WvW for my home server (where lots of my irl and online friends play). Another reason I’d like to see this is because I have a number of friends playing on a US server that I’d like to be able to play with often, but again don’t wish to be removed from the sPvP and WvW rotation for my home server.

Hopefully this gets some notice, as I have a lot of questions about guesting. Maybe this idea is similar to guesting, however the sPvP and WvW thing I talk about is something that may need to be addressed?

Personally I do not think that ArenaNet should base content consumption on what players SHOULD see, and instead should base it on what players DESERVE to see. Content should be treated in the same way items and currency are treated; players should earn the right to see the content at the end of a dungeon by clearing the rest of the dungeon. If they can’t do that, they don’t get to see the content.

It’s that simple.

I also do not thing that excusing poor mechanic design by saying it “allows everyone to see the content” adds anything to this discussion at all, outside of a stench of entitlement.

I think this is a brilliant idea.

You could add in itemisation in WvW that would allow groups to mark themselves in some fashion, to avoid the kick. This would allow players to form up in large groups to take on keeps and the like, but would make it more of a tactics and strategy game, rather than the blind zerg we have now.

It would also mean that we’d end up with a rotation of raids going on, and more small scale, skirmish-type PvP during off times. It would make WvW more of a dynamic experience, whereas right now it’s just a “who has the biggest zerg” game".

Love the idea!

Nah, I dislike this idea. I like the fact that my clones are per-target, and not constant. We’re mesmerising a single thing, not everything in the world. It doesn’t fit.

Yup, I’ve noticed this as well.

There should be a standard, or non-standard I suppose, day night cycle that it uniform across all zones in the game.

I personally think they should bring in an “in dungeon” death penalty that should punish you simply for dying lots.

The problem right now is that you can die lots and still get the reward. There should come a point with the dungeons where you’re not just costing lots of money in repair bills, but outright BARRED from carrying on by a debuff of some kind. It should simply be a case of saying to people, “you failed, therefore you go no further than this.”

The game should be forcing people to play well in explorable mode (at least), and those who chose to use death to attempt to get past the parts they don’t enjoy should be punished for doing so. It shouldn’t be a viable option to corpse rush… ever.

And the reward at the end should be an actual reward.

CureForLiving.5360:

Well discussing housing I though of the idea of having in-world guild halls or barracks. A fixed number dotted across the world. Guild can then compete against each other to own one of these halls/barracks. It gives a bit of incentive.
Otherwise a server ranking system could be put into place, so that guilds can compete for top place.

They’re not likely to do that at all. The PvP is kept separate from the PvE, if you’ve noticed. PvP comes in many forms, not just outright combat. If they created nodal Guild Halls in the actual game world, and even if the competition was through some kind of non-combat system, they’d be moving PvP into the game world.

Whilst I support the idea wholeheartedly (I do think that ArenaNet should be trying to cultivate intra-server economies as well as the overall global economy in some ways, if they actually want this entire community orientated gaming thing to work) I would say the title of the thread was just a little distasteful ;D

Just a slight alteration that I think would make the process of fiddling with your dye colours (which I do endlessly D;) a lot more streamlined ;D

Pretty simple…

Click once – apply new colour, click twice – remove new colour. Whilst there are only up to three (so far, from what I’ve seen) colour slots on each piece, there are still a lot of colour slots. When I’m messing with intricately garish dye combos I flit between colours quickly. This would be even easier if I could apply a colour with a single click, and then roll back to the old colour if I click that piece again within a small window of time ;D

I suggest this because it’s something that could quite easily be implemented, and is fairly easy to implement. If we’re looking at the viability of suggestions in an “effort vs. reward” sort of way, this is certainly something that falls well on the side of being worthy of the effort ;D It doesn’t impact the design and functionality of the UI, requiring no additional artwork… etc ;D

Surely with the combat system being so reliant on key pushes, especially the 1-0 keys, a system like this really wouldn’t work?

It’s OK for FPS and TPS games because they’re not so reliant on the 1-0 keys, but with a game like Guild Wars 2, where the 1-0 keys are always in use, it seems that it would add an extra layer of commands that would simply work to complicate affairs for the player.

Just my thoughts ;s

I suppose the system could work if we key bind the commands somewhere else, or if they were on an alternative key toggle. Being able to hit shift, then 1 (or another key), to throw out a heal command (or the like) would be quite useful.