Guild Wars 2

If this reaches big mmo news, such brute force is gonna make the opposite of what’s expected : serious backlash against GW2, and why people don’t want to play it anymore.

I stopped playing because of not enough combat skills, not enough trait choices, and not enough class mechanics overall. I feel like my brain is running in circles after 10 minutes of fighting.

I also want to point out that this is the core of a lot of problems in GW2. Because if combat was more varied, more exciting with more choices, it would solve all of the complaints I’ve read in this thread, and let ANet continue with their current gamedesign philosophy :

- grinding wouldn’t be a problem, as combat would be so exciting and different in each fight that people wouldn’t focus on the repetitiveness of the task, but on the excitement of their fight.

- Dungeons wouldn’t be deserted, as fighting would be so exciting that some people would be glad to run old ones again and again

- ESports scene would rise from the ground, as very serious gamers would be attracted by interesting mechanics, may they be on individual or team scale.

etc…
It really feels obvious to me that class mechanics and skills variety are where ANet should have put most of the money. The basics are brilliant, but the lack of choice makes it appear as a wasted effort.

Plus, I’d never say this enough, but in mmorpgs, we spend 80% of our time fighting … so if such fights are boring, it’s no secret that players will leave in no time.

edit : oh and yes, more mechanics means more balancing difficulties … but you know, balancing is actually a job, where people get paid to work on such issues. It’s called Systems Designer.

This, precisely, point by point :

Trollface.9186:

- Combat is kittening boring : just go full Zerk and spam dodge rolls, autoattack….
- Lack of skills: most of them are either useless or boring/uninspired , so are the traits.
- Lack of rewards.
- PvP: since GW2 is the successor of GW1 ( which probably had the best PVP ever made)I would have expected something way better than this boring conquest…. absolutely one the worst (if not the worst) PvPs I’ve seen in my entire life.
- DR
- RNG, RNG everywhere.
- Super casual.
- Ascended gear.

I’m sure I did not mention something, but that’s all for now..

Same as a lot here. Not that I completely lost trust in ANet (manifesto stuff), but I would certainly not jump so fast into the hype now, and would wait for 2-3 monthes before buying anything.
Anyway, a third installment so close to second is completely unrealistic, and useless. MMORPGs are made to evolve over time. Content, mechanics, zones, all of these can fit into patches and XPACs. The only reason to have a whole new game would be a whole new engine, not new content / tweaks.

Knighthonor.4061:

kineticdamage.6279:

Sorry, but you don’t base a class on its “looks”, but on its gameplay and mechanics.

neither do I, but I believe the Op was asking for a way to look like a death knight from WoW, since in that game classes have class specific armor models.

I didn’t understand the first post correctly, my apologies.

The Lost Witch.7601:

Well, most of the skills in GW2 seem to be rather… carefully made. There are few potentially overpowered ridiculous skills in comparison to GW1. (Mesmer portal is one of those though, as is time warp, stealth and reflection in general and I guess the tome of courage with its full party heal)

In comparison GW1 had quite a few skills that were at some point broken (insanely good) and needed several nerfs.

The most famous was probably Shadowform, which started out as a 60s recharge enchantment that would last for 16 seconds or so, made you invulnerable to everything and then took you down to like 5% of your health. Risky, but a lot of fun. (Until permanent shadowforming became a thing due to the other broken skills…)

Other memorable extreme skills:

Protective spirit. (Enchantment that reduced every hit you took to 10% of your health)

Bonds. (Maintained enchantments that a player could cast on another player to prevent up to 90% of the damage they took)

Spiteful Spirit. A hex that would have a foe deal damage to itself and other foes around it whenever he attacked or used a skill. This ended up being a LOT of damage. Often singlehandedly offering over 50% of the damage your build could do.

Echo. This spell gave you a copy of the spell that you would cast after it. Allowing you to use the same skill twice, or even more often.

Edge of extinction. Whenever a player or other creature died, this ranger spirit would deal damage to all other creatures of the same type. This lead to crazy builds that would even wreck havoc in PvP, having almost the entire team suicide in order to kill the enemy team by having one player use:

Mark of Protection. An enchantment that would revert all damage to healing instead for 10 seconds.

Blood is power. A skill that would enhance the energy regeneration of allies massively but sacrifice 33% of your health! (Real health sacrifices!)

Power Block. This interrupt could lock entire skillbars for 12 seconds.

Backfire. This single skill would equal about 15 stacks of confusion for 10 seconds on a spellcaster.

Distracting shot. This arrow would interrupt a skill and put it on a +20 second recharge.

Grenth’s Balance. This skill would balance the difference between your health and the health of the enemy. Giving you health and taking the enemy health away.

Frozen Soil. A ranger spirit that would prevent any player from using ressurection skills for as long as it was alive.

Melandru’s Resilience. A ranger stance that you could keep up indefinitely that would not remove your conditions, but counter their effects with more health regeneration AND energy regeneration. The more conditions you got, the better the skill became.

Mind Freeze, this skill would slow your opponent massively if you landed it on a foe with less energy than you had. We’re talking an 11 second 90% slow. (Which was buffable up to 20 seconds)

Dash. A stance that gave +50% movement speed for 3 seconds every 8 seconds.

Those sound fantasticly fun and varied. I wish GW2 was not shy. Screw overbalance, I prefer having to find myself all “WTF did happen to me ?” and go for one hour against a specific opponent to find creative ways of defeating him with my own meanings, than just a shiny little balanced world where every skill feels bland and every fight feels as predictable as the previous.

Sorry, but you don’t base a class on its “looks”, but on its gameplay and mechanics.

I found core mechanics (skills & combos) were quite awesome, but there were simply too few of them to keep me entertained for more than 2 monthes. I’d say it would require 2-3 x more skill variety (not necessarly more bars, but for example switchable weapon skills), plus 2 x more traits depth to bring me back. I’d simply like more intelligent class mechanics, with far more choice.
In a word, they need to reach a WoW-like skill mechanics level (let’s be honest, a lot of them are really clever).

Yenn.9185:

We’re gonna need either a new class, new traits, or new skills very soon. The gameplay is getting stale after 1 year.

After 2 monthes, personally. Btw I’m glad there’s a general agreement on this, but I wonder why it took so long for most players to realize.

I saw a ton of Class Balance requests in the collaborative dev threads, with a lot of people subtitling it as « more variety in skills / traits, more depth ».

Just a quick clarification, fellow players : In gamedesign terms, Class Balance means “how classes are equally powerful and efficient against / besides each other”. That generally means tweaking numbers without ever touching or adding any mechanical change.

If we are talking about variety, more choices, etc, what a lot of these requests should have used was : Class Depth.
(which also was my main request aswell)

If you want to ensure the devs don’t receive the wrong message, may I suggest you could use a minute to edit your request. Unless it was really Class Balance, of course

1) (At least 2x) More Class mechanics, more class strategy choices, more depth (skills, traits)

2) More character advancement (horizontal progression)

That is all. Those are the only 2 points that are keeping me away from returning to GW2 since 10 monthes (especially the first one). Simply put, shift all that work done on cosmetics more towards mechanics evolution (and this doesn’t necessarly mean “more skills”, but could be more variations in the same skill like Thief’s Dagger#1, more effects, more class combos, etc). World is perfect, dungeons are cool, quests are great, etc.. but those are not the most important thing in a mmo, where you spend 80% of your time playing with your spells/skills.

My huge problem with GW2 is lack of diversity and choices in combat mechanics, whatever the class. And it is what prevents me from wanting to return to the game for monthes now.

People say it’s because of the lack of trinity, but it’s not. This argument is made because it’s the only other gamedesign they know that works in mmos. Same for people asking more classes, we don’t need more classes, we need more development on current ones. I understand it’s not a player’s job to imagine new ways of bringing mechanics diversity, but let’s be a little bit thoughtful with our requests.

All those trinity / class requests are just the tip of a bigger iceberg, which is lack of choices, intrications and basically realtime spell strategy in combat mechanics. That is all.
You can spill all the content you want, all the shiny armors you want, all the new zones you want, it will be boring as long as the way we’re consuming it is the same as 8 monthes ago.

Dodging and straffing is not the holy grail to that problem. It’s only a cool addition to general manoeuvers on your toon. But it will never give the satisfaction of having dozens of complex choices in the way you want to use your spells.

End of story.

Could we have a detailed dev blog about the continued work of ANet on adding skills mechanics & variety ?

You know, like the ones we used to have before release ……….

Calae.1738:

Kakeru.2873:

GW2 is a casual centric game. Best casual MMO on the market atm.

Players that want any thing more than a casual experience will not be playing GW2

Colin sold us on the E-Sport idea. E-Sport is not for casual players. Not by a long shot.

While Kakeru has a point, yours is also very valid.

Which adds up to the now super long list of :
“They told this, now it’s that … What happened to Arena Net … ?”

tic.7425:

I’m sorry, but I don’t buy this at all.

You just took the rather extreme of two classifications of people. Not all casuals log in from day to day to do a daily or two and then…“see ya”

and not all of your “core” make videos, prepare events, and essentially sustain the rest of us…

You missed a rather large playerbase that fall somewhere in the middle, if thats the case.

You can’t really have a precise vision of the debate if you put too many marks between one side and another. You get the idea … I’m not here to put 100 different labels on people. Just tried to explain why one side shouldn’t be left more than the other.

Ansultares.1567:

No.

In terms of the playerbase, it’s the lack of attention paid to role players that is this game’s worst enemy.

Well, that or the swing and a miss that is GW2 PvP.

Urvanis.2985:

Hardcore players are a minority, devs pamper to the masses. Every hardcore player could up and leave all at once, Anet wouldn’t even notice.

But everyone else would, and then many of them would start leaving, and eventually Anet would notice.

Who do you think makes the youtube videos, or the 3rd party sites, or maintains quality guilds?

Cloud.7613:

The casual players I know don’t care about content because they aren’t around long enough to see it all.

And that’s the danger of catering to casuals; they’re generally so not involved in the game that they’re unlikely to stick with it beyond when the next new shiny releases.

I hope devs see this post. Actually I hope every dev of every recent mmo see this post.
Because it’s the absolute truth, and the major problem of nowadays gaming, especially mmorpgs.

Like I wrote so many times here, MMO studios seem to forgot who really keep their game alive. And for sure it’s not the casual crowd.
(casual in my ears being people who play at a random pace, a few hours a week, and who leave the game under two monthes).
(hardcore being very very dedicated players, not people who have no life at all)

What I don’t understand is how even investors & management can’t even see that, as it’s even recognizable by growth numbers :
the games which started to grow aggressively did not expand the most during the “catering to casual audience” times. (also known as “broadening the audience” strategy, which should be banned from earth for the damage it has caused to the industry).
Nope, when you look at it, every game that became hugely popular went that route thanks to their ability to please a niche, during a sustained amount of time. They were different, and they did generally speak to highly dedicated players (= hardcore gamers). Then hardcore gamers created fansites, articles, created a whole parallel life for the game.
And then the casual crowd entered, being attracted by those fansites, by this hardcore gamer word-of-mouth, massively boosting growth numbers. Serious players having serious gaming credits talking serious about one game ? You bet it will attract less dedicated gamers, and it’s a good thing indeed.

Casuals and hardcore are complementary, hardcore motivating casuals, casuals taking hardcore back to earth.

But right now, mmo studios really seem to have taken the hierarchy backwards.

• Casuals are relax, cool people who will come and go from time to time, saying hello to guild, maybe do a daily or two, and then “see ya”. They’re essential in the sense that you will always be able to find a casual player to chill out, take a mini-ride with you, somewhere, sometime, when hardcores are too busy preparing stuff. When I was an officer in a guild, I loved seeing some casual member suddenly connect, and say “who’s up for [insert a crazy, useless but fun, unexpected thing] ?”.
  Could be seen as satellites.

• The core … Hardcore gamers are, well, the core of the game. The ones who will make the self-marketing of the game by dedication. The ones who will prepare raids, prepare guild events, who will spend hours on deciding the best strategy on a web forum for a boss, a pvp match, or whatever. They’re the ones who will understand the combat mechanics so deeply, after having tried everything, even unintented stuff, that their opinion might be as valuable than a dev. They’re the ones who will find exploits by constantly harassing the system, and therefore help devs to correct them.

etc, etc …. you see the picture. Hardcore gamers are the pillar of a game.
And in my view, most studios are confusing both. They are putting what should be sattelites as pillars, and what should be pillars as sattelites.

And casuals shouldn’t feel offended by that, because it’s logical : the more you invest in something, the more important you are to it. Which doesn’t invalidate casuals value, as I wrote above.

But right now, for many years to be honest, I sincerely feel game studios have completely forgotten that hardcore audience.

Another mistake they make, is to think that what appeals to hardcore audience is grind. It’s not. Grinding is boring for everyone. What hardcore audience wants is depth. choices. expandability.

http://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/game/gw2/Professions-lacking-any-kind-of-depth

http://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/game/gw2/Expanding-on-the-current-skill-system

http://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/game/gw2/This-game-needs-more-skills

http://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/game/gw2/Slots-1-5-I-m-seriously-baffled

http://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/game/gw2/In-my-view-combat-is-the-weakest-part-of-this-game

http://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/game/gw2/It-s-not-about-the-shape-of-the-sword

http://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/game/gw2/GW2-Depth-of-Combat-Discussion

http://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/game/gw2/Will-Combat-Mechanics-be-deeper

Healix.5819:

kineticdamage.6279:

AnthonyOrdon.3926:

A few missions haven’t even been completed by our internal testers yet (but they came extremely close).

Yeah ! That’s the spirit ! Keep on this path please

fyi, the same thing was said about explorable dungeons.

Were they toned down that much ?

Colin

Effectively, this system allows guilds to literally create content across the world for everyone to experience. When one of these missions is created, often times you’ll see a banner with the guilds name and emblem that created the content.

That’s brilliant design.

edit : while a designer is in here… please … some words about skills / traits evolution

AnthonyOrdon.3926:

A few missions haven’t even been completed by our internal testers yet (but they came extremely close).

Yeah ! That’s the spirit ! Keep on this path please

Red Falcon.8257:

So if using abilities in the current situation and in a timely manner to save the day isn’t “depth” to you, then explain us what is it.

It has already been explained in the first page. Please read all the posts before starting an argument fight.

I love how the thread really follows the pattern I & JSmooth described in page 1.

It’s not only about mastering.
Some people are masters of Space Invaders, but that’s not a reason for me to be sold on mastering Space Invaders.

It’s about finding an interest in mastering. For ages, the only incentive in videogames to master them was not to die. But since then, the incentive has evolved.

Some games (MMOs particularly with their deeper combat mechanics) have provided far better incentives to master your class than just “not to die” :
- create constantly evolving metagames inside your own class
- build superior DPS, support/heal, or resistance
- carry a whole team to victory
- endorse new roles that weren’t intended in class design

That is what we’re talking about when mentionning combat depth.

Here, with GW2, except being a juggernaut that will never die in a battle, what does mastering my class will bring to my game exactly ?

+1 to you too JSmooth, that’s also very accurate lol

Abbehemoth.2471:

Care to explain what depth is from you perspective? Same for the OP, what do you mean by depth?

There had been already tons of thread about the subject.

And they always follow the same pattern :

- OP tells he’s bored with current state of combat mechanics
- people will tell him that he doesn’t know the subtelties
- OP says he does, backing up with facts
- then people will say they don’t want more skill slots
- one guy will say that you don’t necessarly need more skill slots to add depth, that you can for example add several skills to chose per slot, like utilities. Or have more intrications between skills (with traits).
- then people will say they like the current state of combat anyway
- others will say they don’t
- thread dies because nobody has a clue about what the devs will do about it

… and the constant :

- still no word about combat mechanics evolution from devs themselves

Here are a bunch of threads created on this exact topic :

http://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/game/gw2/Expanding-on-the-current-skill-system

http://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/game/gw2/This-game-needs-more-skills

http://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/game/gw2/Slots-1-5-I-m-seriously-baffled

http://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/game/gw2/In-my-view-combat-is-the-weakest-part-of-this-game

http://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/game/gw2/It-s-not-about-the-shape-of-the-sword

http://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/game/gw2/GW2-Depth-of-Combat-Discussion

And one I created a looooooong time ago, to show how the problem was already foreseeable in November ’12 :

http://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/game/gw2/Will-Combat-Mechanics-be-deeper

But as long as we won’t have any detailed plan from ANet (like the ones they used to write during development ….), we will be going full circle with threads like this popping up here and then.

The question was even asked during Chris Whiteside’s AMA on Reddit, couldn’t answer at the time, hinting at some future AMA about this subject. But we never got it.

We don’t need a new class or a new race when the current classes are not even that deep.

Mantisian.4729:

Exactly! That’s my question: why is it debated so many times?
It’s really, really strange IMO…

For subscription topics :

Because some people can understand that content & features would be totally different with a sub-based model.
So they want to know what is “missed” with current model & how many players would be ready to switch it.

p.s : you’re creating a thread asking why some threads are created.

mrstealth.6701:

You can’t please everyone, and trying to do it just ends up pleasing no one.

Amen.
This is the problem of most studios nowadays, and what causes the fall of great franchises.

I guess we wouldn’t be so active on skill / traits evolution topics if we had at least a small feedback from the devs about their short term plans.
Really, I can dig all their interventions all day, I could find flows and flows of words about everything (lore, content, dungeons, bosses, items, services, etc), but nothing about skill / traits evolution. What comes ?

Blude.6812:

Just curious—how many have said yes because thet have someone else (mom/dad) who foots the bill.

15$ is the price of :
- two beers in a capital city
- a dvd movie
- a bottle of wine
- a book
- a pizza menu

Not every player is an unemployed kid. Even the lowest salaries could afford such a sub. Even a kid who only has 30$ pocket money per month.
Better than that : if you add all the bills from someone whose hobbies are anything else than a MMO (which is a commitment for monthes), I’m pretty sure it blows out those 15$ / month (unless he spends his time watching TV, but uuugh).

I had my times when I didn’t play mmos at all, and all my free time was spent either going out (8$ beer here, 16$ dinner there, etc), either playing solo games (= at least 60$ per month).

But when I spent my evenings on MMOs (long time ago), my wallet has never been so happy. With my girlfriend at one time we even called sub-based MMOs “the hobby of the poor”.

Also once again, from a production budget standpoint, subs are bringing far more security, so far more freedom to creatives. With a cash shop (that is not P2W), you can’t sustain anything, there’s a constant risk of running low, so game evolution decisions have far more chances to be shifted towards “growing the userbase” and monetization (policy that has killed more than one franchise, latest one being Dead Space), rather than just being free to experiment new gamedesigns.

But once again, it’s a lost cause to try to explain to people that quality has a cost.

Chuo.4238:

I would have paid a sub to play Guild Wars. I definitely wouldn’t pay to play GW2. Not since they trashed the manifesto.

But did they have to trash the manifesto because it wasn’t generating as much revenue as sub based …. ?

Iruwen.3164:

And I consider it kind of insulting to be called a casual gamer because I have a life and play less (maybe 10 hours a week)

You’re the one finding it insulting to be a casual gamer, not me
Let’s get away from paranoia and face the facts : a casual gamer (or a person who doesn’t play that much, in other words) will certainly have less chances to be bored by a game under a 6 monthes period than a hardcore gamer.

wintermute.4096:

No matter how much you might want it, the game has to bow down to the lowest common denominator to make it accessible at all costs, i.e. casuals and noobs shall be artificially prevented from gimping themselves as much as possible, so the customization options are inherently limited. I too would like this to change, but I fear it just won’t happen.

On a sidenote, like I mentionned in another topic, “growing the audience” is really what kills all the games I once loved.

Saulius.8430:

more choices might be nice for those who play a lot, but no matter how many, it won’t prevent them from choosing same #2 spam.

The #2 spam is another problem, yes. (and it should be treated equally)

Saulius.8430:

and also, what you are suggesting would make game less friendly for new players.

That feeling you got is the immediate consequence of a concept, but that doesn’t mean it cannot be worked around.

One example : to avoid making it less friendly for new players, you could lock those skill slot choices until lvl 40. Just like you lock deeper traits.

Remember, we’re not gamedesigners. We are limited by what we played in the past, and by our non-experience in designing. Everything can be worked around.

FacesOfMu.3561:

Funnily enough my eyes tend to glaze over when I look at the button set-ups of WoW, Rift, LoTRO, etc. Soooooo many skills that you’d learn to pass-over because you weren’t spec’d for them and wouldn’t waste the activity-per-second count on. I’d end up playing with 2-3 skill bars at the bottom, 2 on the right, and all slots full of things I’d easily forget I even had available or kept them there for that “just in case” moment that’d pass before it mattered.
I have come to really appreciate the tighter, slimmer UI and skill bar range of GW2.

But remember that most people here are not game designers
When one user asks for “moar skillz plz”, if you try to see where the complain is coming from, it’s just a call for more choice. “Moar skillz plz” is the only other way of extending choices they know about, because that’s how other games did.

But … more choice doesn’t necessarly mean more skill slots. A common suggestion over here was to have several skill sets per slot, and per weapon. That would look like having to chose what skill you want to put in slot 1 for the Dagger / dagger thief weaponset. Just like utility skills.

Another way to extend choice is traits, and skills intrications. Like creating a new condition when selecting [Trait #45], that would give your sword skill#3 a completely different meaning (the most common example I have in mind is the typical "if skill#3 is a critical, boosts skill#4 damage by xx %).

Etc, etc…

People should not limit their understanding of a complain to the complain itself. It often hides a deeper problem.

Vayne.8563:

kineticdamage.6279:

Vayne.8563:

Chess is a game where pieces only move in 6 ways, but the possiblities are endless. The combat system is deeper than a lot of people realize.

Chess is the perfect example to prove how the combat system lacks depth, imo.
(or the people you mention didn’t play GW2 extensively enough yet to already know all the combat subtelties)

The current system is ok for any casual gamer that don’t mind repeating the same button sequence, the same 3 builds for 6 monthes straight (aka people who don’t play that much).
But for any “traditional” mmo gamer, who is used to play 30-50 hours per week, it can grow really, really old very quickly. The current system lacks choices.

Strange, I play a ton, and I’m not bored. Seems to me, maybe it’s you.

Because I swap weapons a lot. I don’t just use one weapon. That’s part of the system. I swap out utility skills at need too. Some are useful in certain situations, some in others. Same for major traits. The stuff is there. If you don’t use it you can hardly fault the system.

Then to each one his own needs

Of course I swap weapons a lot, utility too, and I abused group combos with friends as soon as the game was released. I also spent hours on web-based trait calculator to milk all the possible configurations. But still, I didn’t feel surprised by the system anymore back in December.
It’s only me though, and I don’t generalize my case …. But I would be surprised if all the players who tried the game in september (including the ones who stopped, indeed) did all feel the system was as fresh as at release, monthes later.

Goettel.4389:

I think there’s more than enough MMO’s catering to the jobless already.

30 hours per week = 4 hours per day. Or 8 p.m to 11 p.m + week ends.
50 hours per week = 6-8 hours per day. Or 8 p.m to 1 a.m + week ends.
Unless you’re working 80 hours per week, I don’t see where it would be a jobless activity.
Nice try though.

edit : and even though … even for a guy who is playing 2 hours per day, for 6 monthes every day, so few choices does grow old.

Vayne.8563:

Chess is a game where pieces only move in 6 ways, but the possiblities are endless. The combat system is deeper than a lot of people realize.

Chess is the perfect example to prove how the combat system lacks depth, imo.
(or the people you mention didn’t play GW2 extensively enough yet to already know all the combat subtelties)

The current system is ok for any casual gamer that don’t mind repeating the same button sequence, the same 3 builds for 6 monthes straight (aka people who don’t play that much).
But for any “traditional” mmo gamer, who is used to play 30-50 hours per week, it can grow really, really old very quickly. The current system lacks choices.

Excellent questions.

Sky.7610:

If this game was subscription based, would you be willing to pay to play this game monthly? Why or why not?

If it can save ANet from being restricted in their vision by some money guy who don’t have a clue in gamedesign, forcing them to either monetize a game feature with gems, either impose a bad gamedesign in order to “grow their audience because the minimum revenue growth was not secured enough” ….

Then yes, totally, I would pay a sub.

Sky.7610:

Do you think GW2 would have flopped if it was launched as a subscription game?

And that’s where I understand the cash shop decision : the competition was too strong at the time it was released, F2P was becoming legion, and mmo gamers were in general fed up with current mmo scene, most finding any new game not worth a sub.
They just didn’t have the choice.

Now the tricky thing is that it would be a super hard time to make a B2P game become a sub based game, when all the other MMOs are taking the opposite stance.

edit : reading the replies now, and it shocks me how people in general can’t see the implications of a cash shop based business model … the only thing they see is their wallet’s profit :/

bladie.5084:

kineticdamage.6279:

http://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/game/gw2/How-is-getting-rid-of-Cantha-a-universal-representation-of-humanity

………………..

Thanks, honestly i didn’t know that Cantha = Asian themed back in GW1. Will keep up with the topic.

You’re welcome
The other advantage of this thread in the link is that a senior ANet artist is participating in it.

http://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/game/gw2/How-is-getting-rid-of-Cantha-a-universal-representation-of-humanity

………………..

Josh Foreman.8250:

kineticdamage.6279:

Pure target audience strategy. They saw how westerners rejected Asian elements during Mists of Pandaria development, so they took it as a business rule and wanted to surf on the rejection. That is speculation of course, but it is so obvious …

That’s not what happened. This went down long before anyone even know MOP was coming. It was simply a cultural consideration.

As weird and unjustified as that decision sounds, then I trust your words
(and thank you for taking some time to voice it)

Still, I wrote the silly idea of creating a kickstarter to fund the independancy of ArenaNet earlier, but the more I think about it, the more I don’t find it silly at all, and I’d definitely pay for it. And I’m pretty sure I wouldn’t be the only one.

As mentionned in page 1, the publisher did have a creative decisional power. I don’t support that at all. A publisher is a publisher. A creative studio is a creative studio, and castrating such outstanding creativity for shady reasons doesn’t please me at all as a customer.

Still, I understand it’s none of my business as a customer to have a view on such creative decisions powers. But everything people hate in the game actually, or feel there is a lack of, is totally different from what GW2 was shaping to be during the development process.

The manifesto, the blogs … ArenaNet was crystal clear about their vision, and now we’re kind of halfway away from it. I don’t know what or why, but something clearly happened along the way.
Some theories are around the web and I won’t speculate anymore for sanity’s sake, but whatever that real reason is, I’m 75% sure it didn’t come from ArenaNet.
The change was too brutal. And the Cantha story seems to confirm it.

/crazy_tinfoil_hat_time_off

/and_back_to_the_actual_discussion

scizwig.5492:

I just heard news that Cantha might not ever be making its way back into GW2 as an unnamed artist for Anet has said: "NCsoft was firm in its decision to stay away from “Asian” themes and keep it “universal.” ArenaNet had to make adjustments quickly. A small number of you may recall that the human story was originally split by Canthans/Elonians/Ascalonians instead of the current Streets/Commoner/Noble paths. Divinity’s Reach originally had sections dedicated to the three cultures as well (Ossan Quarters & Rurikton are the current “versions” perhaps?) ArenaNet obeyed NCsoft’s suggestion and halted all Canthan productions, including the once-existing Canthan sector of Divinity’s Reach…. Because of time restrictions, they had to erase the Canthan sector of DR quickly.

>

Neb.4170:

But why on earth would NCSoft, a Korean company, want to get rid of Asian elements?

Pure target audience strategy. They saw how westerners rejected Asian elements during Mists of Pandaria development, so they took it as a business rule and wanted to surf on the rejection. That is speculation of course, but it is so obvious …

Seriously, a publisher forcing a game studio to remove so much already done work … just for the sake of securizing potential rejections… it speaks volumes.

Maybe …. Let’s all start a Kickstarter to fund the independancy of ArenaNet ? …….
(seriously, I would give loads of money for that)

There has been many threads about this problem already, and keeping seeing new ones just confirm that it is indeed a problem for some of us.
Like others I’ve already expressed myself on the subject elsewhere, but I have to salute TheDaiBish for summing it up in a few clear points :

TheDaiBish.9735:

There are a number of things GW2 could take from GW in terms of this:

• Skill Capturing – Instead of just giving us the skills, make us hunt for them.

• A Variety Of Weapon Skills – Give us a pool of 2 – 4 skills for each slot that keep in with the theme of the weapon, but allow to mix the playstyle up a bit. For example; Warrior Sword 5 Riposte could be exchanged for Seeking Blade, that causes Bleeding if Blocked, while Ele Fire Staff 3 Flame Burst could be exchanged for Rodgort’s Mark, which causes the next application of Burning to also deal all of its damage in a Burst.

• Skills Have Additional Effects When Criteria Are Met – This, IMO, was what added depth to the GW system, and not the sheer number of skills. For example, Teinai’s Crystals would deal damage, but also apply Cracked Armour if they were suffering from a Water Hex. This allowed people to build skills that chained together for devastating effect when used properly.

^^ This. Exactly. Precisely.

I didn’t play that much GW1, but if you tell me all of this was there … man I can’t understand the reason why they took it away.
If it’s because of complexity, then it is naive to believe that a game that is supposed to be played thousands of hours can stay fresh with only so few combat options (choices, skills, traits, etc.).

And also :

Czar Peter.7961:

This game would be much better if ANet used the resources they put into developing the holiday events, lost shores, fractals and flame and frost into adding new traits and skills for each class.

^^This.
I won’t say it enough : I don’t understand why mmo devs in general shift their efforts so much towards pure content after release and don’t dare to touch the mechanics.

You could give us new bosses, new horizons, new zones, new weapons all you want … We will still be performing the same actions, with the same choices, all night with our char … Which is the biggest source of boredom.

Raine.1394:

There is a general trend in gaming to remove complexity in terms of build customization. WoW is much simpler than it was pre-cata, D3 looks more like GW2 than it does D2. I’m sure they want to save themselves the hassle of balance and want to make games more accessible to more people through implementing “training wheels”. The problem, of course, is that the training wheels aren’t removable; you are never allowed to grow up in today’s game. The richness in character customization is gone and many people miss it. Perhaps there is a happy medium somewhere that solves balance and accessibility and still allows for depth of customization.

This. And it makes me sad.
It really seems that mmo devs nowadays completely forgot that the majority of their playerbase already know how to play a MMO. Is already used to complex schemes, complex strategies, etc. And that is what they need to keep being interested. It’s like a chest player : would you really think that someone who has been playing chess 4 hours a day for 8 years would keep being entertained with beginner playstyle … ?

We don’t need those training wheels anymore, except the usual casual, vocal minority at release, who complain at the slightest thing just because there was some need to think a bit about it. And this vocal minority will abandon the game a month later anyway for “that other next big thing”.
I really don’t get why they don’t understand where their real sustainable playerbase is : hardcore, dedicated, & often veteran mmo players. Those are the ones who will dedicate hours, weeks, monthes to a MMO, even when it has lost its novelty.
Those people don’t need hand holding, at all. They just need the exact opposite.

DoctorOverlord.8620:

Also as Shufflepants stated, ArenaNet has said that while thousands of combinations were possible, their data showed players ended up using the same skills over and over (Thousand Blades for example).

I’m not pointing at ANet here, but in general as this seems to be the trend in mmo devs to oversimplify (or even remove) choices just “because players are all taking the same single option anyway”. That is a lazy & unprofessional philosophy to remove content “just because it’s not used enough”. If it’s not used, it means it’s not well designed. So instead of removing it and say “voilà, problem solved”, it should be reworked. I’m really having a hard time accepting this design philosophy (which appeared with Blizzard, some years ago, let’s face it).

While I’m all for deepening the combat, I’m really not for falling into the trap of bringing the Trinity again :/

Kraggy.4169:

Hard to know what you want as you’re post kind of rambled, but you seem to be saying you want a key-mashing combat system like WOW, where complex ‘rotations’ are used to differentiate the ‘goods’ and the ‘bads’.

Not necessarly, as being written in the OP :

kineticdamage.6279:

It’s not necessarly about having more skills. You could perfectly still have 5 skills, but that would dynamically change upon my previous choices, my current build, and my timing.

Kraggy.4169:

As for “trying tons of templates”, fact is most players never did, they went to whichever fansites the min/maxers posted on and cut/pasted whatever skill/talent/whatever builds that particular MMO needed to get TEH BIG NUMBERZ, and derision was cast on those who wanted to do something different because EFFICIENCY is all that matters to the sheep.

A very, very few players KNEW the battle mechanics and were the min/maxers specifying the ‘flavour of the month’ build and the majority of the rest of the playerbase were the sheep that duly did as they were told.

Same goes for ‘learning the mechanics’, a few bleeding-edge players figure out the fights, the sheep watch the videos these elite few put on YouTube and copy those tactics verbatim.

I understand the argument, but I always thought it was a non-argument (“always” because it was the one given by devs to reduce choices in any mmo).

There will always be sheeps and followers. People who are too lazy to burn a few neurons on min-maxing, that’s just a fact. But imo it doesn’t mean the min-maxers, the “math heads”, should be penalized for it.

In the same vein, you could also use that argument for dumbing down dungeon bosses to nothing more than hit and run strategies, “because people would read the strategies on the net if they were complex anyway”.

That trend of dumbing everything down because of people who don’t want to think that much is what kills the mmo scene, imo, and to a wider extent the videogame scene.

And even from a professional ethical standpoint, saying “why should I care bringing some choices, if people will copy paste templates anyway ?” .. is incredibly wrong and against evolution.

Don’t you agree ?

Erasculio.2914:

Nope. But a good MMO rewards skilled play more than anything else. The fact that GW2 has such a deep combat system that a skilled player can do more than 5 average players is proof of how complext the game is. Someone who claims that the game is too simple and to understands every nuance of the game, yet is not a skilled player, is just a lot of talk with no bark.

So, you discovered that a skilled player can do more than a non-skilled player in a videogame, that’s right … ?

I could use your analogy for Super Mario Bros aswell.
Super Mario Bros is incredibly deep, is it ?

Erasculio.2914:

Are you a player good enough to solo AC on an elementalist?

Because a mmo is all about soloing stuff, is it … ?

You’re in denial. You might find it super fun to break the record on who can solo an instance, but I don’t. Some people are in dire need of more choices, even after having tried all the “subtelties”, that is all. Period. Basta. If you’re happy with it, stop denying how others can feel about it, and have fun with your solo records.

This OP video only proves one thing : the most basic real war strategies are working in this game.

Even adapted to movies :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdNn5TZu6R8

Or in Sun Tzu’s words in Art of War :

Overwhelming size wins by engulfing opponents

(but hey ! let’s draw hasted conclusions and nerf AOEs !)

Erasculio.2914:

kineticdamage.6279:

“people who find it too simple just want the trinity back”

Never said that. I have a hard time believing you have really understood the game if you didn’t understand even a simple post.

Are you serious ? You just wrote it 10 minutes ago ….

Requests to bring the game back to a more simplistic “tank/DPS/healer”

… as a classification of these "people who want changes’.
Anyway forget it. You’re out for an argument fight. I’m not.