Guild Wars 2

Rainbow Eyelids.8461:

You people complaining about this maybe need to try dungeons or sPvP or WvW. leveling is not the only thing to do in the game…

….

btw combat mechanics are the same in PvE, sPvP and WvWvW.

I’d love that
(p.s : very exact same discussion here : http://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/game/gw2/Will-Combat-Mechanics-be-deeper )

BrickMcThornbody.7094:

kineticdamage.6279:

In fact it’s not necessarly about having more skills, but changing their effects when some conditions are met, so we never have the same fight two times in a row.

It’s called combo fields, and it is already in the game.

The reason why you spam 1-3 in every major battle is because you’re too lazy to figure out how to actually play your class.

For example, I play an engineer. Sometimes when I go to Dragons I just sit there auto attacking the dragon, and I’m fine with that – other times, I run around dropping turrets and healing people and dropping elixers on people and I am also entertained. Other times I run around and see what interesting things I can do that I have not yet done like combo finishers with mesmer fields or elementalist or guardian.

I am starting to think many people should buy the prima guide to GW2 because there are lots of game mechanics people simply do not know about, and then they complain that they aren’t implemented in the game, but they are, I assure you. Give the wiki a read over sometime. This is not the same MMO design you’ve played for 10 years, and if you think it is…well…Why are you playing still?

Please stop assuming that people who say they are bored are automatically inferior beings who didn’t manage to wrap around all the mechanics.
So once again :
- yes I do know about group combos, read the thread, I’ve already talked about it.
- yes I do know that some classes are more complex than others, but that’s another problem : for example, what if I love the Thief archetype in general, but want complex gameplay ? This has also been already mentionned in the thread. Don’t reply until you read all the posts.

In the discussion, we’ve been talking about the Elementalist. Let’s take this example : yesterday I talked with a friend who did try all the classes, and who might have hundreds of played hours in the game.
Long story short : he knows what he’s talking about. And we were talking about this exact subject, when I brought the Elementalist proposition to find a more complex gameplay.. What he replied struck me, because that was exactly how the Elem feels even at lvl 15 (he played one at 80 indeed) :

_ – “The elem is more complex than others, because you have to switch, but in the end it’s still repetitive. Because you have to switch in a certain order to maximize your efficiency and to survive. There’s litterally no surprise at all. You end up switching the same skills, the same attunements, in the same order, all the time (nearly).” _

And that’s precisely how I was seeing myself ending up with mine. Air, weakening, Earth, conditions, Fire, damaging, Water, healing/further weakening. Rinse and repeat.
(Yes I know it’s a bit less a fixed order, but still, not far from reality).
So in the end, after tons of discussions all around, wiki read, vid watching, I ended to the conclusion that players who are used to mmo mechanics, therefore who are searching for a complex and unpredictable gameplay (= surprisingly varied), are only left with one choice : the Engineer. One class.
That doesn’t feel right, because it tunnels us to one playstyle in a 8 classes game :/

Group combos are awesome, yes. But you’re not always playing in group, and even in group, spamming group combos does have its limitations in term of DPS and efficiency on the long run. They are essential to understand and to use in hardcore situations, but not a solution (yet) to the lack of mechanics depth some of us might feel. The core of that depth, is indeed each class mechanics by themselves. Individually.

Xocolatl.6890:

If you’re always looking for new mechanics, then it is probably high time that you move on.

I’m ready to accept that
But there is so much potential with that game … That’s why I’d love to have the lead designers opinion about it.

p.s, reminder for late joiners : I love the game, and find its core absolutely brilliant, though. Just this very point is tickling me.

We’ll see how things turn out with the next patch, which seems to change a lot of things.
One way of adding more diversity would sure be to lower some certain overly long utility skills cooldowns … like the Thief Spider venom … come on, 45s for 5 attacks ? :/
(considering Thief is the fastest autoattacking class)

Latinkuro.9420:

Someone asked for more procs, that is the definition of bad games mate !
procs are RNG based, I’d rather see them depart from this archaic mechanic all together ! even crit is RNG based which is sadly a necessary evil because we all like to see big numbers fly around.

RNG are the only key to non-linearity I’m afraid
(unless we reinvent the whole mmo wheel once again)

Humposaurus.5764:

If you do not like pressing 3 skills all the time. Switch to Ele/engi they have to use all of their skills to survive even the simplest trash mobs.

Yep that’s exactly what I started to do yesterday
But what if I like the Rogue archetype in RPGs ? or the Warrior smasher feel ? etc.. ?

:/

MMO devs really should stop leveraging gameplay difficulty by class (it’s the same in most other popular MMOs). They shouldn’t force hardcore/advanced players to endorse a specific role just because the gameplay is more interesting to them with one class among others.
There are tons of potential solutions to set different levels of gameplay complexity inside the same class, all without breaking balance. The only thing for devs to accept is that more complex strategies = more advantages to the player.

Leiloni.7951:

There needs to be a reason. Sure I can sit down and figure it out if I have to, but I don’t want to. I can keybind 50 skill but I don’t like it. I can make an optimal build and optimal stats, and learn the best times to use which of my 50 skills in whatever different ways, but is that always fun?

Of course, we’re all assuming that such changes would be made right, bringing fun
Once again, complexity doesn’t mean tedious
(and that’s the job of gamedesigners)

FluffyDoe.7539:

Not many people are good at the whole ‘trait building’ (math calc.) stuffs, but many players are good at keyboard maneuvering. Don’t mind if they make the skills actions more complex…. just keep the skill mechanics simple to understand like they had been.

Yes, I like how ANET handled buffs / debuffs : fixed base durations, fixed names, and only changing one stat. So it’s easy to recognize.

(because a Thief’s job is to cut, obviously)

(thanks, because yes, your suggestion is great imo)

Minion of Vey.4398:

It is, unfortunately only in the elementalist class.

That’s precisely what I feel by the looks of it.
Which is kind of frustrating when you want other playstyles … and what’s even more frustrating is that every class playstyle does feel unique, this very problem taken apart.

I understand that in theory not every class can be made complex, so that every audience is satisfied. But in practice there are so many ways to leverage complexity (traits / talent trees being one). Because that’s why MMOs are so interesting : they make you feel evolving over time. And at max lvl, if you don’t want to fall into Gear trendmill, the only other way to create evolution is with gameplay. Actually in MMOs the only way they found was talent respeccing. Starting from that point, one suggestion would be to give tools to player to leverage the complexity of their gameplay at will (and at max lvl), but not only with talent respec.
GW2’s core design has the tools for that, with weapons swap and skills alternatives (skill#1A, skill#1B, etc). ANET really got the tools for giving vet mmo players a bigger bone to chew in term of game mechanics, so why not going forward ?

I’m pretty sure there’s room for proposing very complex combat mechanics, as alternative to simpler ones, within the same class.
(sidenote : complex doesn’t mean tedious, if done right)

Anyway that’s a great discussion we have here, thanks guys.
I’d like to know the devs point of view on that matter.

Those are interesting propositions, but why did you feel the need to create a new topic instead of posting into the former discussion on this exact subject ?
( https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Will-Combat-Mechanics-be-deeper/676612 , same page )

The more we regroup this kind of precise feedback on mechanics topic, the more visibility to devs

robber.4613:

If you’re only using a 3 skill rotation playing an engineer or an ele, you’re doing it wrong.

The 2-3 skills rotation part was a bit biased by frustration, I admit, but in the end there’s not that much variety, is there ?

Ditton.3149:

So basically you want a true combo system

Not necessarly
Just … “something deeper” than the actual state of combat. Like I said, it can be more procs, more skills, more traits, or just more layers of complexity to existing ones.
Or yes, more combos. It can be anything really, and that anything to find is the job of a gamedesigner, tbh

The only thing I’m able to quantify is the amount of mechanic layers I’d like : twice than the actual ones.
As to why some of us feel already bored of combat … There is one explanation : most of us already have beaten to death the basic mechanics of mmos, like combo building, DoTs, rage meter, resource management, interrupting, blocking, etc …
GW2 was obviously brilliant in its own approach of triggering them, but in the end it’s still the same mechanics all over, the same order of application, of reaction.

ANET doesn’t have a huge job here to satisfy people like me, though, because the core design is perfect. It only misses “more choices”, “more personal strategies”, imho.

SameHH.1048:

Isn’t this the case with all MMO games?

Like I wrote in the OP, sadly, yes it is …. :/

nerva.7940:

why are you asking for more abilities if you cant even use the ones you have to their maximum

Why are you assuming that I don’t use them to their maximum … ?
I didn’t write this thread “just like that”. I tried a lot, lot of different min-maxing, weapon/traits configs, before jumping to that conclusion about being bored, believe me. And yes, I am aware of cross-class combos, I was even copy pasting how-to’s during headstart in dungeons groups, when most people weren’t aware of them.

But right now, the sensation is still there ..

Right now the combat mechanics are awesome, dynamic, and everything synergizes very well. But I’m starting to feel what I was afraid to encounter : mechanics boredom.

All in all, and like in every MMO after all, every fight consists of repeating the same few buttons in the same order, kill after kill. I tried 5 classes (Thief, Mesmer, War, Engi, Elem), and it’s the same problem. My Thief is lvl 80, and I was expecting Trait builds to diversify those mechanics, but no, they just tunnel them even more towards a unique order.

As a mmo vet, I already know those patterns, those rotations … since a decade. And I’m pretty sure I’m really not the only one in this case.

So I wanted to ask ANET if there were any plans of adding depth to combat mechanics ?

Like adding more skills, more procs, more conditions (like “if I use this, this will give me a new effect when I use that, which will then trigger a CD reduction on this other one”, etc…). In fact it’s not necessarly about having more skills, but changing their effects when some conditions are met, so we never have the same fight two times in a row.
Skill#1 ’s dynamism (press once-> become skill#1B -> press once more -> becomes skill#1C) is a great example of how things could become more dynamic.

What do you guys think ?
(even if I know that in general people don’t really care about combat complexity, as long as they can kill things with big numbers in shiny armor ^^)

Why so serious ? xD

I mentionned the word “relying” because Steal is the most redundant mechanic in the Trickery tree traits. But that’s not the only one, sure.
Anyway, I really think the branch wouldn’t feel so frustrating on Steal with such a trait (or passive trait line replacement) :

kineticdamage.6279:

Something like a X/XI Trickery trait (or trait line replacement) :
“Critical strikes have a 5% chance to reset Steal cooldown.”

High risk, high reward.
(in theory)

Jjiinx.8795:

It would be neat if there was a 30 trickery trait that decreased steal’s cooldown, but to balance it, it also limits what you’re able to steal (perhaps a random ability from a pool of 5 skills), extra points if the skills are unique to that trait (you know, more thiefy skills)

That could solve the problem of whole specialization relying on Steal

Something like a X/XI Trickery trait :

“Critical strikes have a 5% chance to reset Steal cooldown.”

That’d be awesome, and easy to tweak/nerf with the % number if it’s becoming too OP.

edit : or maybe put this % chance directly into the passive bonus, replacing % cooldown reduction.

I am not considering myself an “expert”, but I do have something like 5 wins : 1 loss ratio now. On Saturday, I had 4 hours straight without losing a single game (props to the players I teamed with, too).

All previous advices given in this thread are worthful. But This 5 : 1 ratio mentionned above only came after one fact : I changed from a damage build to a defense/avoid/healing build. (0/15/30/25/0)

This was really the game changer for me. Actually my health can sit at 90% for ages in 1vs1. And I can tank up to 4 guys without much problems for 10-20 seconds before being in real danger (enough to trigger a full Dagger Storm on them).
Granted I’m aware of enemy attacks, I swap weapons a lot, and save my CDs … but without this build I clearly wouldn’t perform this well.

It seems like once again in a mmo, healing/tank builds are the king of PvP… :/

I simply love Orr.

Visually, the ambience is litterally gross, straightly coming from my worst filthy subconscious sensations : greenish, oily liquids. Organic, weird, erratic flora. Undeads everywhere. Massive giants. Earthling cities being devoured and dominated by those visuals and those nauseous visions. Wasteland sensation. It’s like everything my eyes has seen filthy in the world is being assembled in this zone, and it’s delivering an amazingly disturbing sensation. The Art is simply fantastic.
In a word, Orr feels “nauseous”, and that’s incredibly accurate for an undead theme. Huge, huge thanks for this experience (maybe the best undead experience in all video games imo). What’s even more impressive, is that for once, it’s a nauseous sensation but without using a gore factor. Only suggestions.

Gameplay wise : It’s hard, we’re surrounded, we feel like being swallowed in the stomach of insanity. You can’t make a step without having a horde of deranged beings jumping at you. And most of all, you can’t survive without joing efforts. It’s litterally a WAR against Death. And that, my friends, feels fantastic.

So yeah, as you guessed, I just love Orr
Best endzone in a MMO ever, imo.

p.s : There’s only one zone that hard to travel in the whole game, so please people, stop trying to tone Orr down. If you want a walk in the park, just go in the other 90% of the map. Thanks.

signed : a gamer who can’t stand the MMO easing mentality anymore.

edit : what is an annoyance for some, is called challenge for others.

edit 2 : That would be a great solution for everyone to be happy :

There should have been a series of events to create safe corridors for players to travel faster, setting perimeters and clearing pathways and such, and then stay like that for some hours before being overrun again.
I actually though it’ll be like that, advancing and taking enemy territory from their hands, making Orr safer and stuff.

But I’m yet to see anything like that.

savage.3469:

imo go 25/30/0/0/15 id take +3 initiative and steal cd over a immobilise on a cooldown from deadly arts

15 Trickery completely loses the insane initiative regen advantage that all the build relies on :/ (loses Initial Strike -7% init regen, and loses 4 init regen every 15s with Hastened Replenishment + Withdraw Heal skill)
Plus it loses all the condition damage superiority (= bleeding with LDB, with pistols, poison with bow, etc)
+3 max initiative is only useful with high init regen, imo (as openers are rare).

I understand those are sufficient advantages to invest 30 pts in Trickery, but I don’t know, 12s CD lowering on Stealing feels kinda frustrating. Like it’s here “just to say we gave you an advantage”, compared to other passive boosts from other branches.
(+300 on every heal.. +15% crit, +300 power on every single attack, +3000 health, +10% damage reduction with toughness, +30% crit damage, etc ….)

Mug is super powerful I admit. Whirlwind too. But the others .. ?
Anyway I understand those abilities forbid any further CD lowering, but why should a specialization be penalized like that ?
Don’t you feel that 13 seconds CD lowering is a bit weak, for a full 30 pts invested ?
They could nerf the Steal abilities and traits a bit, and lower the base CD, for ex.

Talking about Stealing, not stealth, btw.

Actually I just love the condition damage build that Trickery offers.
I tried tons of different builds, and came to conclusion that the most versatile one, which offers most gameplay possibilities, is : 30 Critical + 30 Trickery (+10 whatever).

With this build, you have :
- great initiative regen
- great burst
- lower power, but I’m the gameplay oriented type of gamer, who prefers to be able to do tons of things rather than limited actions with high power. Superior Initiative regen offers that.
- possibility of playing stealth dagger/dagger (burst from Critical)
- possibility of playing melee massive bleeding damage (dagger/dagger -> Death Blossom, that you can even trigger once more than other builds thanks to higher max initiative)
- possibility of playing pistols, because of skill#1 bleeding (Trickery branch condition boost) and higher pistol damage (Critical branch)
- possibility of playing short bow for AOE fights (poison cloud superior damage with Trickery + higher initiative regen with skill#1 when its rebounds are critical)

In a word, highest synergy between weapons, of all builds I tried.
You can do anything, in any situation, with high efficiency (well except sword, but we can’t have it all after all).

But … what bothers me from that build, is that it’s supposed to be played around Stealing … and stealing only goes from 45s CD to 32s CD, when Trickery is maxed up.
Stealing is great by itself, and can trigger powerful tools, but I don’t feel these tools are powerful enough to justify a 32s CD in a build that is based around it.
32s is hella long time in 5-8 seconds fights …

So that’s it, this build is great, but the simple fact that I can’t use Steal more than once every 32 freaking seconds makes the sacrifice from maxing Trickery a bit worthless, imho. I mean … maxing Deadly Arts makes me powerful on every single strike… Shadow Arts makes me uncatchable and unkillable, Acrobatics let me avoid non stop and run faster 70% of the time … etc …
Trickery ? it lets me be as powerful as other branches … but only every 32 seconds.

It feels wrong. 20 seconds CD (when Trcikery is maxed btw) would feel far more fair.

What do you think, fellow Thieves ? (and fellow devs :p)

@OP : what you don’t mention is that this overkill combo is only doable every …. minute.

So people are whining because Thieves can assassinate someone every … minute .. ?

/facepalm

/tactical_facepalm when we all know that all classes can align planets like that.

edit : people will always find a way to complain about litterally anything anyway, as long as they can’t win 100% of the time.

So, history of Rogue archetypes repeats itself …

Seems like we won’t see any MMO dev who will assume the “cannon” part of glass-cannon, after all.

(because yeah, actually if I don’t spec full Toughness/Healing with my Thief, I just die in 3 hits)