Guild Wars 2

Heh; this is the very reason I love Mesmer so much; and im comparing to any character class ive played with in Any MMO…. you can actually ‘trick’ people…

sure, smart players know what to look for, but in the heat of the moment with Blink and Decoy etc, even a seasoned player can loose track of the real Mesmer… and generally only for a few seconds or less are they confused; but those few seconds can be Vital to Kicking some serious kitten .

I find it absolutely HILARIOUS how often I can just stand still in sPvP/WvW doing nothing but my auto attack, and people move right around me like im a clone…. I think this is most effective with a GS; because the auto attack does some decent DPS…

Id go so far as to say that the iWarlock is a Power phant.

sure it does more DPS with each condition, but power builds still get a majority of those same conditions applied (assuming the same weapons are being used**) they just don’t do as much damage…. so, yea… id say iMage is the only true condition Phant.

Also, assuming your traited correctly etc, Zerker and Duelist can be used somewhat effectively in a pure condition build… they do (if your crit% is high..) apply a fair amount of bleeds from being traited correctly… I wouldn’t say this is the most optimal thing to do, but its ‘doable’ …

just my 2c.

Hmm, does Scope effect kits, as well???

For example, does it increase your crit chance with Grenades?? Or your main weapon only?

(im trolling at work, or id check myself… id rather someone just Tell me =P )

Male Sylvari, named “Kemis Tree”.

for me, it justifies the butterflies….

plus my girlfriend plays a sylvari ranger, named “Poet Tree” =P

Malice.8439:

I’d be content with a sigil for the swiftness.

Or if we are allowed to dream, I’d replace blink with a Sigil of Swiftness, and having us blink as an effect on consuming the sigil.

Hmmm, i actually REALLY like this idea… especially if Blink was on the same cooldown… not sure if it would be a bit overpowered…. but, if they give the Portal mechanic to another class, i dont see why we should be able to achieve perma-swiftness without having to rely on runes….

We dont have reliable AoE damage Already…. if they make mind wrack single target, ima be PISssSED.

if Anything, and i still dont want to see this happen, theyll limit the number of targets it can hit (for example, engineer pistol#4) … Which, i wouldnt mind if they implemented this for sPvP, but this would destroy this class for PvE…..

Please Anet, if you nerf our AoE ability, consider that we struggle with DE’s already… I mean, its managable…. but compared to EVERY other class, we need our AoE abilities in tact.

If your going to make our mind wrack single target, then our clones should transfer aggro (and stay Up) when their target dies, if multiple targets… As in, they wont automatically dissipate until you exit combat… This would also add more weight to non-shattering builds…. some would say this would be Way to OP, and those people that say this, are a little stoopid, and never seem to just auto attack the clones down…

i Concur!!!

i think #2.

i like the idea of a passive 25% from a ‘charged’ mantra, that can be consumed for single(maye AoE?) cripple… 25-45 sec recharge, once the charges are used….

i think this would add more flavor to mantra builds, and would kinda make sence being very ‘mobile’ while needing to recharge mantras…

$0.02

+1 to the tradeoff!! if the portal mechanic is given to a class that can maintain perma swiftness, then Mesmers should be given the ability to sustain swiftness 24/7… like, at LEAST make temporal curtain lst through the cooldown… not this extra 3 second bullsheeet from the last patch…..

either that, or change/add a new mantra…. that enables perma swiftness while charged, and can be consumed for 5 sec of cripple…. maybe 25-45sec recharge??? (this may not be the most suitable way to give us perma-swiftness, but i think this idea would fit into our utilities as is… just my $0.02)

Heh, i thought the butterflies to be a bit ‘ghey’ at first, but i rolled a Sylvari mesmer… and personally, i justify the butterflies because Syvari are plant people, who generally have some kind of mystical attunment to nature… Therefore, im simply an enchanter that controls….. well…. magical see-through purple butterflies…

i actually woudlnt mind if for other races mesmers had stars or just purple effects etc, but i think the Butterflies mesh with Sylvari well, in terms of lore, and character appeal.

on a side note, i never loved EQ2 much… but oh man, Everquest (back in the day..) was AWESOMENOCITY. ive grown to like how GW doesnt have concrete set ‘roles’ for each class or spec, but gawd do i miss those days of EXTREME group cooperation… and NO MMO has remastered that as well as EQ1 did.

i sincerely miss my shaman/cleric/druid/bard days….. Cleric was my main…. i remember when my guild first learned how to macro 5-10 clerics in a ‘Complete Heal’ spell line…. it was a 10 second cast spell, and we had macro timers to signal the next cleric to start casting, to where our main tank was COMPLETELY healed every 1-3 seconds…. not to mention all the other extreme variables…… Raiding has NEVER been the same…….

Agreed.

It really depends on your personal playstyle.. Id say level a mesmer to 10-20ish and get a good understanding of how clones/phantasm’s work with the Shattering mechanic. If you DONT like the shatter mechanic in any way shape or form, id suggest trying a different class. (plausibly thief.) Much like an eng/ele, if your not taking advantage of our F1-F4 abilities, then you’re gimping yourself, and will most likley have a very un-fun experience leveling/playing your Mesmer.

So, get a feel for the Class Specific mechanic, and then choose from there.

Also, one more sugestion, level each to 2, and go to the Mists…. test out each character on the test dummies. If you’re having trouble understanding traits and abilities, google a video or 2 showcasing each class, and go try a few different builds out…

$0.02

+1 for this entire idea. I like the above post’s suggestion, to have the purple dots reflect the amount of health. That would be awesome.

Personally, i wish our iWarden was ground targeted…. Like, it still requires a target, but will summon to the exact spot you place him…. This would make his Projectile shield invaluable, instead of only achieving proper placment maybe 50% of the time…

I understand some people wouldnt care for this (all you people who stink at ground targeting…) so maybe have a GM trait that makes all phantasms ground targetted? id use it. And it wouldnt slow me down at all… i would actually apreciate the ability to position my oh so important phantasms where i see fit… And id love to see their health…

ill bet once we get a good expansion, with a healthy chunk of new maps to explore, especially for Max lvl players, they’ll implement Mounts… I’d even bet their will be much less Waypoints in any new content….

plus, i would absolutley love to have a mount for my mesmer…. i cant stand running back after a wipeout in a dungeon….

if they do get added, i think they may not work in WvW…. it would be cool if they did, but utter chaos, because Everyone would be able to roam well… Too well..

$0.02

I cant seem to get your link working, even with copy/paste method… (im at work though… so meh)

But, based on your description, i believe i know the build you speak of. ive done a no-kit P/P alchemist in sPvP before (which is what i think you-re describing) and kicked some buttocks…

it has its weaknesses, like Any class/build, but is very fun. Its more of a support DPS build in my opinion. Its viable, but best to stick with a partner in crime, instead of fly solo.

personally, i love this build for sPvP support, and Dungeon crawling, because i LOVE condition damage.. i love seeing the ticking numbers of dmg consistantly flying over a mobs head… more-so than seeing big crits.. (which is too kitten easy to achieve in this game.) …. BUT!! alas… until a major rework is instilled, condition damage is near useless in dynamic events…. Sure, because of the small AoE the pistols do, not to mention if you pick up the “pistol shots pierce” trait, you still tag most every mob…. but i feel like im leaching, instead of having a direct effect on the fight…

still fun tho, especially if your primary focus is group oriented PvP or PvE… but any condition build we can do, tends to be semi-lame for high end DE’s. i still rock this build every so often for sPvP, but havent spec’d this way since they stuck a cooldown on the ‘burn on crit’ …. the burn on crit used to Decimate with pistol shots piercing…. now it… Cant…

meh, just my $0.02. Dont let anyone tell you that ANY build sucks…. their is no one build to rule them all… they each have their strengths, and weaknesses…. its a matter of exploiting those, at just the right time.

Alarox.4590:

Regarding RNG skills, I think there is a simple way to improve them and make them much more appealing:

Make the effects situational.

For example, make Elixir H grant Swiftness if used at 66-100% health, grant Regeneration at 33-65%, and Protection at 1-32%.

This would make Elixir H more of a skill based ability where you want to use it situationally. A similar concept could work for to toolbelt skills of Elixir B, S, and maybe even U and the effect of X.

THIS!!!! THIS THIS THIS!!!!!

what THAT guy said!!

instead of randomness, delegate what effect happens based on % of HP. this should be the case for EVERY random elixer we have… have the tooltip show at what percentages each effect will take place.

Now, in my opinion, Anet is going to look at this idea and think “well, the experienced MMO players will be fine with this, and understand the concept, whilst using it to its fullest ability… but our ‘new to the MMO Scene’ players will have a hard time grasping the concept of having yet another variable to pay attention too..”

NOO!!! let them re-roll! Its not Our fault they are incompetant!! In my opinion, engineer is one of the most complicated classes to play effectivley, due to the random nature of most of our utilities, and our ability to equip kits, giving us the absolute Maximum number of abilities to micro-manage….

so please Anet, dont turn us into a creepy clown of a class, simply because some people have trouble with our class mechanic….

$0.02

PS= OR!! just let us pick a trait or 2 that defines Exactly what buff we will receive from any given elixer. 1 trait for ‘dmg ish’ elixers, and 1 for ‘oh snap, time to run’ elixers….

I think its sad that on most EVERY engineer post, that has Anything to do with condition damage, there are people Telling someone how ‘bad’ it is… you know who you are, we’ve discussed this before…

i just think thats unfair. Its like Telling someone not to eat their favorite food, simply becaouse YOU dont like it….

it depends on your playstyle…. plain and simple…. and again, STOP quoting numbers from ANY wiki people!! they can be wrong…. let alone the fact that their is no dignified combat log, we simply have NO idea what strange formulas Anet has in place to factor any classes damage… its all Assumptions…. point in case, if you could easily calculate such simple formulas for our abilities… then Why the hek are we riddled with bugs etc??? its a simple answer…. Game Coding is Harder than you Think!! they dont just pull open some spreadsheet and mess with a algebra equations to ‘fix’ everyones so called ‘bugs’…

(before you rebudle, i apologize. long day at work, had to vent to someone other than a coworker =p)

to the OP: when condition spec’d, anywhere from 110-130ish depeding on WvW or sPvP, and might stacks….

(this ‘may’ seem ‘bad’ to some, but i assure you, reader, its for comedic value only.)

Django huh?
what race?

Every MMO goes through constant balancing acts…. but overall, im just fine with engineer…. Even though we get the short end of the stick in multiple areas, we also have (in my opinion) more diversity than any other class….

it boils down to Skill and Apptitude… if you’re an adept MMO player, its easily to utilize all of the vast tools engineer has, but if you’re newer to MMO’s, you’ll most likley have trouble taking advantage and understanding all the tools availiable to us..

i know im speaking generally, but, i mean too… theirs no ‘One Build to Rule them ALL’ for Any class…. everything has a counter, as long as the person is adept enough to recognize When to counter…. and, (again, in my opinion) Engineer has ALOT of cards up their sleeve… it simply takes Skill to know When Where and How to attack situations…

so, i guess in conclusion, my ‘story’ i still going strong. Ill be happy if we get the better half of the see-saw on the next few patches, but even if that neverh appens… im perfectly content with engineer…

Ill bet the only way this would be implemented, is if you had the ‘kit’ for you “~” key in one of your utility slots… i think Anet would consider it unfair (whether true or not, my point is i doubt theyll do it) to essentially allow engineer to have an aditional utility slot, IE the “kit in weapon swap” function..

and honestly, id rather they dont even attempt that, because you can just keybind your “~” key to one of your utility slots, and would function the same. Dont get me wrong, i Like the idea myself, but i dont forsee it happening… and if it Does happen, we probably wouldnt have access to the toolbelt skill of the kit you have placed in your “weapon swap” button.

honestly though, with 7, 8, and 9 keybinded to Q, E, and R, i find it VERY easy to dance between the kits… but i can understand how its anoyying to some… honestly though, thats the way the class functions… if thats not optimal for someone, then they should roll another class…. even if Engineer’s get some balanced changes anytime soon, the class function of ‘kits’ will most likley Always function the way they do now.

$0.02

+1 to Everything Kodiak said

Range has alot to do with it, not sur if its a bug or intended…

but once you get pistol shots piercing trait, using it at close/medium range is quite awesome… especially if your keen on your positioning.

toolbelt does Not need a buff… rocket kick is pretty awesome… it helped me level big time… i dont use it much anymore, but it got its time-of-day!!

Whats the timer on guardians AE knockback?? (i honestly dont know =p)

i would hope that its the same as ours…. or rather, if their’s is instant, why ‘Isnt’ ours??

i agree with the latter, sometimes i never even geta chance to use it, but when i do, it works extremely well =p

mischwoof.9785

All in all I think engineer’s downed skills are great. Much better than mesmer or ranger downed skills :>

i disagree about Mesmer, i think mesmer downed state is one of the best.. but thats just my preference, it does suck when you dont have an interrupt, but the damage of the illusionary rogue is Awesome, and the #2 ability is Awesome… guess it depends on playstyle… but, personally, i think mesmer’s downed state outshines ours.

well, in my opinion, i Have to speak generally.. because it is up to each individual player to slot the utilities they plan on using…. for example, i personally always slot our stun breakers, and i love (forgot the name..) the one that refills endurance…. when timed and used properly, i mitigate bursts, and then have the upper hand…. sometimes i fumble, sometimes i dont.. this is all decided by my skill level…

Skill constitutes knowing what utilities will be more beneficial than others, and at what time to use them…. so if someone gets ‘countered’ because they slotted other utilities, doesnt mean their build is subpar, or they need to ‘l2p’ .. it means their build has a weakness that was exploited… All builds have some sort of weakness, and strength…
and a skillful player can recognize these, and exploit them, but never, Ever, is their a master combo or build to rule them all….

And! thank You =p i admit, at times (like all of us humans) i can get ‘too’ breathy, but i try to stagger it into paragraphs so that it can be quickly deciphered =)

only dodge 2 times in one bar… what about endurance on heal, or utilities that restore endurance… or having high endurance regen… ‘only 2’ would mean no more than 5 seconds of fighting….

and your right, there are and have always been Gimicks or Gaps preventing balance, but this is the First MMO with balance in mind, and they Are making changes to further balance….. and any Profession can deal with anything thrown at them IF they are specialized for it. IE, rock paper scissors…

skill doesnt Always matter, your right, but it is still Always a factor…. strict math negates Skill. numbers dont count on your target being skillful, and out-smarting you… so, on the contrary, i believe it is You who has ‘mmo delusion’ …

(also, you shouldnt put TL;DR if you did in fact read it, and then reply to it… thats facetious)

Tigger, i think your asking for ‘someone to explain’ because you arent trying to look at it from another point of view… all i would like is for the community to coincide and understand that all builds Have strengths and Weaknesses, that are NOT soley determined by damage done… thats all…

i apologize if ive come off as too brash, but bro, its justa game. i Really dont care all that much, i scan the forums while im at work and try to support ‘build freedom’ … nobody should tell Anyone that a certain build or playstyle is ‘ineffective’ because thats always a biased opinion… you should only give your own opinion of strengths and weaknesses, and let people adapt in their own way, to find their own build…

i guess im arguing/fighting for equality….. showing the ‘math’ for any ability doesnt account for any situation other than fighting the freeking practice golems…. sure one ability may be 21.48645673 times better than another, but that doesnt factor dodges / blind / blocks / range / LoS / touchness-vit, boons… Everything…. meaning the only ability that matters is one that the player times properly and doesnt get negated…

Example??
a condition spec with high toughness, and stun breaks
vs
a power/crit build with high toughness, but no/little condition removal

assuming both dodge/blind/block consistently, the condition spec will be doing comparable damage, and sustain it, while the power spec, is still semi bursty, but much less than normal due to the high toughness on the cond. spec… therefore, the condition spec is doing more damage, because even if half of their abilities miss, they have considerable damage over time happening, whereas if the power/crit build misses half their abilities, their ‘rotation’ only did half of what they ‘did the math’ for…

this is only one of Thoussands of sitauations… their are hundreds of scenarios where every spec can be the Best, or the Worst…. everyone CAN be viable. their is no cookie cutter build of all builds.

(copy and paste address into address bar, direct link doesnt work.)
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fcAQJAqalspSXX3SfF17IBoH1Hw8V0jHDZK/pAbB;ToAAzCpo8xAjAGrXOfkeNqYOC

this is an elixer gun build i use for sPvP, high toughness and high condition dmg, as well as alot of condition removal + utility… you have massive boon up-time, but dont be afraid to substitute whatever traits or skills you desire…

i prefer this build because i really like condition dmaage, and seeing ticks of dmg fly (not to mention focusing on a power build thief / warrior is effective, due to the constant Weakness you apply from auto attack)

it boils down to preference, but to answer your question, Yes, it can be viable, if you build for it..

id suggest maybe trying the build i have suggested, as well as others you may find from searching, on the test golems in the heart of the mists… in there, you can use the amulets to ‘try’ how different builds will function with the elixer gun, and then decide which one fits You best… you may prefer a precision / power build, or a support / healing build… they are all viable, if you play to their strengths. Its up to you to discover what Your personal stengths/skill are suited for…

Heh, excuse me if im being blunt but… No…

i answered your question…. and your repsonse was to disregard the fact that we have alot more things to do than strictly DPS…. and you want me to tell you that you are right, DPS is king…

well, then… Yes….. you are right, Tigger. If you disregard all traits and all utility skills any class can do, then DPS is ALL that matters!!!! Woot!…… But, yuh know… when you stick all that back into the equation, then my list for you is still looking pretty solid in my opinion. Care to elaborate?

or am i understanding you wrong?

okay! here’s a brief synopsis

Exploit range and/or line of sight when choosing target, OR when you hav been chosen as a target.

dodge / block / blind /stun break before or directly after any attack of any nature in which you should avoid getting hit with…. while simultaneously executing your own attacks, and trying to recognize when your target may blind / block / dodge / break / LoS counter you.

this is why Skill, and not DPS, solely effects the outcome of all encounters…

a group that can effectively negate damage better while sustaining DPS (which EVERY class, in EVERY proff. has some DPS with secondary effects to contribute) will do much better than any group or individual who Only factors DPS…

sheer DPS doesn’t win fights. Strategy does, and Strategy does not Require maximized DPS, only sustainable. Which, Everyone can do……

to much DPS sacrifices support/utility, to much support/utility sacrifices DPS. the answer is always to find a balance. Maximizing on one or the other is never the answer… unless you are teamed with someone covering the other bases, meaning you are using Strategy, and Neither person is useless…. Concluding the fact that, DPS is not the only factor of Any game. you must find balance, with a build that suites your style. if a high DPS bursty build suites your style, then Good!! but that does not mean that any other way isnt effective, it simply means You aren’t effective in that ‘way’.

im obviously being vague, because your only response was “well make a list then!”

so i made it short and sweet…

1. Rock → Scissors.
2. Scissors → Paper.
3. Paper → Rock.

mell

Here is how you play guild wars. Never spec toughness. Even vitality can be a waste of time.
Go max dps and then for your utility skills go for a stability and invulnerability, escapes barriers really anything that can help. Another trick is to even leave combat if you’re being focused and you’re utilities are on cooldown.
A skilled player will know what to do at the right time while outputting the most damage. A bad player needs to keep as far out of combat as possible and use there utilities whenever he is getting attacked and then leave combat.
For me personally i do go more for survival than anything else. The best way to do this is stay ranged and use slows and roots. Which is why eng is so powerful.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA…. alright, Alright… im done… i tuly believe now….

that ignorance is bliss =p

for the record, you are factually completely wrong about toughness….. JSYK….

Mell

Honestly the best kill you can have is how to dodge not much else. i think all round dps is very important to those who are bad and those who are good. When you kill the mob 3x as fast because of you it helps.

yea, but if you go through your burst rotation, and get downed, while i stay alive, i accumulate more damage than you…..

and everyone can dodge. how is that a valid point? Oh you mean skill matters…. because you have to know when to dodge… Yep. thats kinda the point i made…

tigger

mmorpg delusion. check

Also don’t diss 8 year olds. They’ll kick your behind in FPS and practically any game if they know what they’re doing.

mmo delusion?? care to elaborate? i get the feeling you didnt have a rebudle prepared, and this was just a quicky….

and actually, i super agree =p ive gotten my butt handed to me by lil kids in FPS’s. Its all hand to eye coordination, instead of comprehension. Theirs no counters in a FPS, its whos faster…. i nthis game, its who’s faster at clicking the correct counter… which takes…. skill… heheh….

Congradulations!! you DO realize theres more than one variable to account for, im glad!!

heh, and BTW, your right that someone using lowbie gear would get one shotted… assuming this person is a little on the slow side, this is yet another variable that makes DPS matter Nill… because that dude in exotics, could have the absolute lowest "DPS’ spec possible, and still Win.

your calling out specific situations where DPS can be king, but neglecting to account for all the other times and places were it Isnt.

more specific and detailed points are TOO specific, because you cannot account for every little thing. Period.

therefore, you cannot solely account for just DPS. you have to account for EVERYTHING, meaning strictly having high DPS, doesnt mean your the best….

skills plays EVERY role, put a 8 year old on your account, in any situation you want… by your logic, he’ll do fine… Hah…

Skill DOES play a Huge roll, and more people need to understand that.

Tigger.8035

Nepocrates.3642:

In the end Skill is greater than DPS.

This is by far the worse use of the word skill I’ve ever read

then obviously you dont read very much…

DPS is one of maybe 20-50 variables that will actually decide who ‘wins’… The most important variable? SKILL!! you can spec however you want, if you Suck, your still going to Suck.

i play a condition / alchemy spec… some people do more damage, but i dont suck. I pay attention. And that has won more matches for me than ANYTHING else…. in Any MMO, for that matter….

Mell.4873

You can stack that with the great sword, also the longbow for warrior. Elixirs have the possibility of getting about 20. The ele can get about 20 to with the sceptre. So it is definitely possible to get a very high amount of stacks.

correct me if im wrong… but i dont think thats true…. maybe a thief popping every cooldown and trick and initiative point they have, can get up to 20 stacks solo, but they cant sustain it.

as a condition alchemist engineer myself, i can easily and Realiably keep a good 7-9 stacks of bleed, doing 110 per bleed, per second. Thats roughly 800-1000 damage a second, plus my direct damage, which is roughly 200, or 350 on crit. Then, you factor in the 1k burn that procs roughly every 3-5 seconds of firing…. sometimes quicker… luck is a factor. Now, take in mind that every shot is piercing, and does a small AE damage effect, for roughly the same as the direct damage itself (200, 350 crit) that ALSO has a chance to proc more burns/bleeds….. meaning if enemys are VERY tightly packed, i might get up to 12 bleeds or so per target…. not 20. the ONLY way an engineer could reach 20 is with help…. either that, or you have a ton of condition duration, in which case i doubt they’re doing much damage….

so, condition builds do Reliable damage, and albeit not as Much as Nades can pump out, its reliable….

Also, (this is for everyone) DPS DOES NOT MATTER. i will repeat, DPS DOES NOT MATTER. the objective to any quest or point in this game, is NOT, Do the absolute maximum damage you CAN…. that is irrelevant… DPS is one variable of many.

in conclusion, EVERY spec is reliable, and effective, if YOU are reliable, or effective…. if you are neither, and using a cookie cutter build, doing the highest DPS you can, then you Still suck =p

Heh..

Yo Potato, i like your style.

and, i freeking hate nades…. no matter what Anyone says….. (but, thats my opinion!)

Heh, for pistols, i honestly prefer Rabid amulet…. having 1500 toughness, and pistol shots pircing, with Sigil of Earth, and Burn trait….. i just love seeing ALL of those 110’s fly out….

plus the AE procs on each target pirced, and can effectivley proc your burn/bleed on crit aswell, which is why i prefer the Rabid amulet, i like high toughness / prec / condi

just my preference though…. ive done rampagers, but i feel like i get worked in a flash without a good amount of toughness… having high toughness easily helps me negate those pesky thief openers, enough so to get some range and widdle them down quickly.

Heh, you seem to forgetting that those abilities still do direct damage, even if you dont waste stats on them =p

lets all let bygones be bygones….. Both spec’s CAN be viable, assuming the player behind them is competent. Can we agree on that?? Im not trying to coax anyone into any particular build, i just want everyone to agree that its not the build thats effective, its the player. Personally, i have mor fun, and am more useful with a condition spec. It would seem that You prefer a power/crit build, and im not knocking that, it ‘can’ be extremely effective.

it all boils down to personal choice… which is why ive suggested to OP to try out both, and variations thereof. accounting for pure damage is Not accounting for All of the variables… like distance, line of sight, secondary effects, sheer speed of the player, variable stats of the target, whether or not the target can block/redirect dodge your attack, latency…… grouped, ungrouped etc…… theirs too many scenarios to claim that any one build is vastly superior over another, because you can still be countered…

Thats a very good point coglin..

also, to anyone else reading this thread… line of sight is always one factor…… its easy to hide behind a barrel // corner etc…. Conditions have to potential to continue doing damage, even though you, yourself is out of range / sight… alowing you to reposition, while still doing some sort of DPS….

looks like its all situational… =P

They have plenty to do with condition dmaage, since for the most part, they are only coupled with condition ability spreads.. and who in their right mind would use P/P with a power/crit build, and not rifle??

you can still flip out of flamethrower and pop confuse or poison… and if you were a power crit build, you’d likley have rifle instead of p/p…. therefore no confuse or poison…. Weakness obviously is only from elixer gun, and albeit #2 and #4 benefit more from power, you easily outweigh that benefit with #1 and #3 and high condition damage… in NOOOO way are #2 and #4 better, even with Moderate condition damage…. especially switching from fumigate to poison darts, thats alot of poison up-time, hindering healing ability… and if your going to argue that you could just keep each kit on your toolbar, your hurting yourself, by not using the skills that coincide with your build….

and Lyuben, i gave you your example.. you only asked for One. How can you still not see my point?? my point being its effective to spec condition if you so please….. . regardless of what you go on about… Im sure youll have some snide rebudle… but simply put, its effective….

my argument, this entire thread, has been, that ALL Builds are Effective. Just because you found a way to specialize in doing the absolute highest DPS possible, in NO way, means that you have found the only viable way to play an engineer, in Guild Wars 2. Their are tons of other variables to consider, enough that you could not correctly come to a conclusion such as “this is the only way to build or play an engi”… by design…

condition flamethrower can be effective.

so can power flamethrower.

its up to the INDIVIDUAL, to do so. we are all individuals, and it is None of our responsibility to deter the OP from flamethrower, let alone how to specialize his charcter…. its your perogative for some reason, but not your responsibility. ANY way CAN be effective, if he doesnt Suck…

so, OP, go try both.. for your own opinion, and dont read to much into ANYTHING but your own opinion…

Did you even read my post?

how about when that 2k applies confusion, or -33% healing effectivness, or Weakness but the 3k does not??

helping you negate the next 3k coming Your way, rather than… Not?

Thats how….

Ugh, your hard up aint cha??

im not arguing that condition is Better, or Higher Damage, im arguing that its Viable. Acording to your logic, the numbers arent as high, therefore its not viable. That is a biased opinion….

MY point, is condition spec is and can be Effective, if you play it well, and most importantly, you Like it…

Your point, is the damage is inferior, so Everyone should avoid it… i disagree. because Alot of people dont have condition removal.. let alone the ability to consistently wipe them.. even with 409, with them being reapplied every second, doesnt make much of a difference. even Vs a mesmer, let them wipe them all, they have 45 sec cooldown to do so again…. im Already re-applying them… Condition specs focus on skills that do condition damage, which tend to apply secondaries…. condition spec’s lean towards our utility, power spec can do this aswell, but sacrafices alot of their own damage for not utilizing the most advantageous skills for their spec. This is by design, which you hinted at… most cond. applying abilities are coupled with secondary effects, due to the fact that you are relying on not doing all your damage, instantly, by design, by Anet.

do you realize im fighting for a fair opinion, for each indicidual, and your only defense is “No, my numbers are higher.” Sheer amount of Damage, no matter how long it took to apply, does not mean You have the best build, and everyone who doesnt build ‘like’ you, is kittening themselves. Thats wrong, that Your biased opinion.

Also, mentioning scale numbers that we can all find in some wiki, is irrelevant… that info can be wrong, (especially with NO way to actually check its credetials…. duh? any ole nerd can mess with the wiki.) let alone Anets focus atm is PVP balance, so ill bet these values change, Alot. Yuh know what that means?? they want things Fair… they want anyone to build the way they want, without cons… simply put, they are working towards Destroying the ‘cookie cutter’ build craze…. this is the most balanced MMO PVP ive ever played (and i mean truly balanced…) yet the system is not perfect… Anet will be changing things soon, with the term “Balanced” in mind…

so, if you think the scale is tilted your way….. itll tilt back….

but hey, no hard feelings? same team? im not trying to argue really.. its just a game… which is also why im not going to go through all the fact checking and math B.S. …. because, im effective with my build… no matter what you calculate =p

so… agree to disagree???

Casia.4281

the exact same mechanics apply for applying direct and condition damage.

Name one situation where dealing 2k damage is better then dealing 3k?
Even if we pretend for a moment, that 2k can’t be cleansed reducing it even further to 500 damage.
If you missed the direct hit, you missed the application of the condition as well.

There is only 1 condition that even comes close to direct damage, and that is confusion. with multiple stacks, in WvW.
5-6s stacks of confuse in WvW, scaling at .15 will actually deal competitive damage to direct damage scaling. .75-.9/attack. And also, scales in cast time due to matching attack rate. a .5s grenade attack for example will hit them really hard at 2 attacks/s.
Confuse in spvp, is less impressive, scaling at 50% of its normal rate. .075 5 stacks being .375/attack.
Obviously, still better then the others.

A burn at .25/s is pretty terrible.
Bleeds as well. at .05/s

How exactly does that compare to direct damage? skill coeff*weapon*power/armor.
kits are 969, pistol 1025, rifle 1205
Armor is 2000-2600ish. This means we can on average take the skill coeff and cut it in have to get an average. Or do the math if you want to be specific on which weapon vs what level armor. rifle vs light armor will obviously deal way more. while a kit vs heavy will scale less.

okay, im sorry if i came off a bit over zealous… but ill explain my point.

the fact that your DPS is higher, does not make you MVP. Far from it. the OP asked which way to spec flamethrower, not if he Should or not, so right off the bat, your kinda a doosh for Telling someone that something they want to do sucks… well, thats Your opinion.

Having high burst or direct damage can sacrafice utility. Plain and simple. I rick bursty builds because i pay attention, and negate their burst. Then they are stuck on cooldowns, while i can sustain high damage. Sure, its not as High, but its Sustainable. So, i tend to win.

my main point is ALL builds are viable. Their is a counter to every build. So, it boils down to comfort. Condition dmg flamethrower spec can be Very effective, if it fits yourplaystyle, plain and simple. Their is no defining fact or guiding light that says “you Sux if you dont capatilize on the absolute most dmg you can do.” i love to have a tanky build, to dodge/blind/block stooopid burst builds…. its all timing, and also not putting yourself into a situation where you’ll get rocked… Its up to you as the player to find and abuse the areas you have specialized for…..

Id like to see/setup a 8v8 match off all engineers, one side all burst, one side all support…. id bet 100g the support side blows them out of the water…

let people play the game the waythey want! and yes, they can still be effective. still disagree?? Good!! then you’re still human! lets just agree to disagree….. but be al ittle more open… its not like with your crit/power build youve Never lost… you were countered.

Geebus their are some die hards here!! Anyone saying power or condition is better than one or the other is WRONG.

Thats right, You, you There, you’re WRONG!!

Because!!! its all situational. OP didnt specify what focus he meant for… PvE solo?? PvE Group? sPvP? WvW??? so, to answer the OPs question, i say, BOTH!!! try Both, Both can be viable in any given situation, if you seek out and abuse those situations =)

I have done a Very high condition damage / toughness build with flamethrower is sPvP and some WvW and kicked Butt. The key to doing well, is sticking with your strong suite, depending on your build. its up to YOU to decide and specialize for that suite.

Both are viable, and both builds have different strengths. sheer Damage output means NOTHING if you such at landing/aiming it.

(copy and paste web address into address bar, forums dont let you click direct link)
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fcAQJAqalspSXX3SfF17IBoH1Xv8V0jHTZI/pAbB;ToAAzCpo6y4lwLrPuuk+MqYOC

As much as i love this game, my life prevents me from having the amount of time id like to devote to actually playing (im at work now.. heh.) but becasue of this, i mostly sPvP.

The above build is my favorite engineer build, a bit of a alchemist engineer. You have extreme boon up-time, high toughness (to help with pesky thieves) and high condition damage. Their is a fair amount of ultility availiable, and alot of the times i substitute elixer gun with Elixer R (for the stun break, full endurance, and also the revive on the toolbar) i suggested elixer gun for you, because its potent vs thieves (well, stun’n’gun thieves) because it applies Weakness on the auto attack, preventing them from spiking burst damage on you, and you having high toughness, further negates their damage. Basically, you need to save Elixer S to get away from their opener, once you break range, they are done for.

The key to this build is outlasting people, and conserving your cooldowns. With such high condition damage, i can tick roughly 700-800 per second of bleeds, plus auto attack hitting for 200, 350 with crits, and every third hit or so apply a 1k burn. Take in mind, your pistol shots Pierce (due to traits) so positioning is PARAMOUNT!! i can do AMAZING damage by simply paying attention to my position… Pistol shots also explode a small AoE damage on each target they hit, and these AE’s can seemigly proc your bleed/burns on crit, resulting in a Ton of area effect condition damage…. and thats just your Auto attack….. save all your cooldowns for the right situations.

I dislike playing a total glass cannon, this build can sustain very high damage (but that isnt BURST damage, its Sustained) while stil lbeing VERY survivable, if you are careful. But, i have to ask, how is your PC signal/graphic/refresh strength?? Alot of people who have trouble with thieves rendering is simply a latency issue…. Ive even seen people with high end machines that have a very low refresh monitor, and their monitor simply cannot keep up. Its perceived as lag, but its really your own system cant render fast enough, rather than it being server-side.

Takei n mind, all classes have viable builds. ALL classes. Dont let numbers fool you, numbers are situational, if your playstyle doesnt take advantage of certain situations, then that ‘build’ isnt optimized for You…. experiment, and find a niche you like about a build… Also, maybe take some time and watch youtube thief vids, to get a better understanding of how they open up on you. Same with mesmers. This can be crutial, because their are alot of cookie cutter builds out their, just remeber their is a counter to Everything….. if its not on cooldown =p

also, for tourny Engineer vids, id suggest googling " Vudani ". He has some engineer tourny vids that are near identical to this build i suggested, but his playstyle is a bit different. I dont have a vid myself, or id link it, but when i first started engineer, Vudani’s videos helped me get into sPvP with a good sense of direction.

Twenynge.8520

What a fun thread. Engineers aren’t any more lore appropriate to Asura than they are to Sylvari. Either everyone gets their own turret skins or we all share. You aren’t special.

Ehhh… fine, we all have to stop because debbie downer is going to have some snide remark for everything…. freekin trolls!! Heh, seriously though, no hard feelings, its just a game!! but for ‘lore’ sake, everyone should get their own turrent skins, which i believe WILL happen!!! but not for a LONG while, im talking like not till an expansion or two…. (when new visuals is the focus, instead of PVP balancing…)

but please stop down playing asura engineers… if you wanna get all technical, wouldnt Asura be the best alchemist engineers?? their, fine, we take that crown, argument settled?? heh….

lets not forget this shtuff was all just made up…. and alot of people get their ‘lore’ facts from Wiki’s, which any ole nerd can edit however they please, so before we keep using LORE as a defense, we need to check the source! ill bet Anet themselves is extremely vague with their lore, to leave room for expansion.

The point of the OP is the same point everyone here is making, the turrents seem like they need some Moderate differences between races… not extreme changes, but SLIGHT alterations……. as well as backpacks/kits. None of this will start to happen though, until other classes get some love aswell, like race specific differences between certain abilities. i dont have any examples, but im sure their are several…..

Nah, flamethrower/alchemist is very supportive in dungeons… like a 10/30/0/30/0

or even an elixer gun build, to stack on weakness. Your asuming your only job is to DPS..

plus, the vigor/swiftness etc effects work on every weapon, every kit, any crit…. not just nades???? not sure if i understood you correctly on that one… and if you mean quickness, quickness with pistol piercing can add up a ton of damage fast if your careful with your own positioning…

nades are just Boring to me… stand and spam…

(copy and paste web adress in adress bar, quick link wont work.)
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fcAQJAqalspSXn1SfF17IBoH1vu3V0jHT5J/pAbB;ToAAzCpo6y4lwLbQuukBNqYiB

this is a fun flamethrower build, i think.. You remove conditions, and have a ton of boons up consistently, and because of the grandmaster traits you can get up to roughly 15-20 stacks of might maintained easily, putting your damage way up… Feel free to cycle in whatever amulet you prefer…. i like condition damage myself, for personal reasons, which is why i have the Rabid amulet on… also with this amulet you only have 18k hp, but 1560 toughness, or 1760 when you have the flamethrower equiped…. So, if you time your dodges and blinds correctly, you can be VERY tanky with this build, while still pluming a good deal of damage.

if you like high damage crits, then cycle in a zerker amulet, and change all your armor runes to Divinity, for the added crit damage… with the sustained might stacks (roughly 15ish with this build consistently) your direct damage will be significantly higher, but youll be more Squishable.

honestly, you dont even have to go the alchemist tree at all, in traits, if its not your thing… but make sure to get the grandmaster flamethrower trait….. beyond that it really depends on how you like to play, what utility do you want to serve as.

spacemayu

Hold on.

There is a mob in the game called “Inquest Engineer” that drops Asuran Turrets.

That’s more evidence than any to suggest that yes, perhaps Asuran Engineers should have a little more flavour.

+1.

What he said!!

i like his defense better than mine!!

i would love to see a shotgun added…. maybe rework the rifle abilities, keep #2-#5 for the shotgun, but id like to see the auto-attack turn into a high damage bleed front cone attack, much like guardian staff#1…

eh????

hmm… im rather curious though… because this definitley makes me second guess using two of the same sigil, but im still on the fence…. i have by NO means really tested any of this theory, but when i was testing my builds, i could swear i had noticable amount bleeds happening from using two sigils of earth, as opposed to one….. but i may have been tricking myself a bit…..

plus i was pretty stoned…. heh.

I actually disagree, Debbie. i believe an Asura engineer (for lore’s sake) chooses to use their magical tendancies to transmute crude bombs / nades / bullets etc…. They are more-or-less just an individual with a facination for stuff that blows up, through the use of crude materials, that would be Easy for an asura to obtain with a quickness…

for example, a bunch of grenades… sure a charr can carry more, but ill bet an asura can make them faster =p