Guild Wars 2

Vahlen.9508:

…….Seriously sick of how much stronger condi is than power in PvE. I don’t expect balance, but look at the warrior……34k condi dps and 10k power dps from the best power build. That shouldn’t even be acceptable, but yet somehow the devs seem to think it’s hunky dory.

From PvE standpoint things are fairly balanced. Just cuz GS power warrior is not top dog does not mean things are broken. And honestly, most condi builds have to deal slightly more damage than power in prolonged fights to justify being used to justify the ramp-up time.

For PvP, that is a completely different story..

Supposely the gen 2 elites should be equal in power to gen 1. They are should provide alternative play styles and more builds. How well this will hold out we will have to wait for PoF release and see how things will work out. It will probably need 2-3 class balance patches to see where things will head going forward.

Saiyan.1704:

otto.5684:

As for sPvP.. nothing FB offers can compete with VoJ. Not even close. Virtues/Med/Radiance or Zeal is much better than any condi build possible with FB in sPvP, at least as far as the stress test goes. We do not know what will happen on release.

I will say that it’ll simply be FB > DH > Core in the end.

• Core – be it power or Burn burst, performs worse than the two elites because it lacks Sustains and overall Stability in clutch situations.
• DH and FB – it’s a bit too soon to see build effectiveness in competitive PvP but FB has the potential to deal higher team-wide bursts, higher effectiveness in team fight amongst allies, and sustaining itself the same if not better.

It’ll be curious how well each and every profession will utilize these Core, DH and FB builds.

You have to test core condi guardian lately. 2k voj aoe procs plus the improved torch 4 are deadly. Burn core currently is so much better than burn DH. Too early for FB though. In addition, if you are going for burst as burn guardian it is not a good idea.

I know everyone feels nostalgic for the mega burns, but considering that half the meta builds are condi, everyone is running multiple cleanses. You are much better off playing the sustain condi game.

So far all weapons worked fine with FB. Axe was somewhat disappointing though compared to sword and scepter. Probably the reason is the the symbol. The long cast makes slow and clunky in PvE and close to useless in sPvP. Otherwise axe was okay.

Condi build with FB/Zeal/Radiance should be okay in PvE. It is for sure stronger than Virtues/Radiance/Zeal. As for sPvP.. nothing FB offers can compete with VoJ. Not even close. Virtues/Med/Radiance or Zeal is much better than any condi build possible with FB in sPvP, at least as far as the stress test goes. We do not know what will happen on release.

Kidel.2057:

Bullet points, self explanatory. This is a recap from all the other threads.

Renegade:
- remove energy cost from f-skills. They mess up rotations on core legends.
- remove cd from utility skills. Obviously.
- stun break moved from healing to a random utility.
- make summons less vulnerable and give them stability.

Optional:
- ranged greatsword instead of shortbow (same skills but Kalla had a greatsword).

Herald:
- underwater Glint
- Shield-4 now also heals 1 condition
- Some healing is moved from Shield-4 to Shield-5

Core Revenant:
- underwater Jalis
- restore the skills that were nerfed because of PvP, just make a PvP and a PvE version. Most of the huge nerfs to sword and shield were made because of PvP.
- Cleansing Channel buffed to 2 conditions.
- Trait on Mallyx that transfers 1 condition if Resistance is ripped. Should scale to more conditions depending on the duration that was ripped.
- Remove quickness from Impossible Odds and just make it like in GW1, with a flat multiplier (so from 10% to 20% but no quickness). Otherwise Jalis will always deal more damage than Shiro in all party content even if Shiro is supposed to be the dps legend.

Optional and likely never going to happen:
- remove or lower energy cost on weapon skills so that we don’t rely on AA.

Please help this thread reach the Devs.
Thank you.

I think these suggestions are great. For Renegade instead of removing CD from utilities, it will be much better if energy costs are reduced. Removing the CD alone is not going to make them viable, cuz they will constantly compete with Soulcleave’s Summit, which is probably going to be better use of energy, particularly in PvE.

In addition, I do not see any reason why Renegade utilities not being untarget-able and immune.

As for Rev as a whole, it currently has three problems:

1) Power Rev damage is on the low side. In sPvP it is even much worse.
2) Limited way outside of Mallyx to deal with conditions.
3) Jalis is really terrible, outside of spamming hammers in PvE.

For power rev, I suggest:

- I would move the 10% bonus damage from Impossible Odds to the following: When you use Shiro legend skill increase damage by 10% for 5 secs. It is 5% in sPvP so this should be okay.
- I would remove the 33% damage reduction from Precision Strike in sPvP. It already has 1 sec longer CD in sPvP. As it currently stand Precision Strike is 43% weaker in sPvP than PvE. I cannot think of any skill that losses so much damage between both game modes..

For Jalis,
- Inspiring Reinforcement cost from 30 to 20.
- Forced Engagement cost from 25 to 10.
- Rite of the Great Dwarf, cost from 50(40) to 20. CD 30 sec. It becomes instant skill.
- Activating Jalis skill removes one condi (locked to retribution). ICD 5 secs.

If Inspiring Reinforcement or Forced Engagement are too strong with lower energy cost, increased CD can be added sPvP only.

This way Jalis can be considered in sPvP to counter condi for power build. So you have option between Herald/Shiro for damage or Herald/Jalis for sustainability.

Finally, I would make changing a legend add 50 energy instead of resetting energy to 50.

From the stress test:

- SB is pointless unless you absolutely cannot fight in melee.
- F2-F4 skills are unusable due to energy cost and cuz they do not do much to begin with.
- Utilities may have some niche uses, but cost too much energy to be used consistently.
- Heroic is where all energy should be dumped. It offers the highest damage and sustainability for its cost in PvE.

Renegade surly buffs condi damage in PvE, but it is just due to Kalla’s Fervor and heroic spam. It also simplify condi rev game play. Mallyx heroikittenil you run out of energy, then Kalla do the same. Kinda like how things are now.

This seems somewhat close to what Warrior new specialization is. Also, the change to energy mechanic completely changes the interactions with other legends and weapons. This cannot be done for only for one legend. It has to be done for Rev as a whole to work.

The idea of changing Rev dodge is cool and goes inline with Rev misty theme. It cannot be tied to energy. This will be incredibly gimmicky ending either really under powered or really over powered. Having 3 doges or faster endurance refill will work much better.

In addition, a ranged AA with 4 chain?

Gaile Gray.6029:

Curunen.8729:

Yay!

Nice timing for UK too.

Even better, now! We moved it up by two hours, so the test will start at 17:00 or 5:00 PM BST!

Rillifane.9654:

I would like to request a 4 hour stress test to accommodate more people from different time zones and areas around the world ?

We changed the time to better accommodate a larger number of players, but two hours is optimal for the developers.

5 pm bst is 12 pm est 9 am pacific. If you are in the US live or work then this is not accessible. I understand that the developers are physically monitoring the event, however, I am not sure why not open it for 10 hours, it gives devs more time to analyze and players more time test.

Klowdy.3126:

I have always been a fan of melee condi specs, and with the the SB condi focus, I was wondering how a condi rev was going to compete against other classes (PvE). I’m also planning on running the new guardian spec, and continuing to level my warrior for his zerker spec, so I won’t be focusing on a single condi (torment, fire, etc)x but going for an all around condi enchant with viper’s, but rev is looking to be my main as of right now.

I just wanted to know if rev was going to be viable, or if he was just another gimmicky wet noodle until a hopeful balance change.

Thank you for the info from all those testers, and shove off to all the haters.

My Open world PvE experience was good as long as you do not use SB. I used mace/axe and renegade offered good damage and sustain ability buff. Though, with trial and error the only utility worth spending energy on is the heroic.

If you already play condi rev it is pretty much the same experience with slight upgrade to damage.

There is a major problem with FB, which is tomes. First, the tomes substitute your skill bar with the tome skill bar. In order for the tome to be stowed it must provide more damage or support than your weapon set and other tomes as well. This creates major competition over skill bar space, in which only the skill that does most damage or support will be utilized.

Second, the tomes skills themselves compete over their individual resource; pages. Only the skill dealing most damage or healing will end up being used.

Third, the tomes compete, together with FB as a whole, with DH line or virtues line. Considering that virtues do not compete with anything else over skill space, this further complicate things for tomes.

On top of all that, tomes compete with each other, since you can only stow one at a time. Virtues do not.

As a result, tomes must provide more damage or support than all other equipped weapons. They kinda have to be stronger than normal virtues. They must be more useful than other tomes (at least at the current moment they were stowed). And among the skills, probably just the most benefitail will end-up being spammed. Virtues only cost is CD (and small cast time for DH virtues), where tomes stowing comes at a substantial cost between losing skill bar and cast time. So far it has not been a good trade in neither PvP or PvE.

Numbers can and might be tweaked, but as things currently stand, there is little reason and too much risk to stow a tome (especially in PvP). And considering that we give up major sustain ability in taking FB over virtues, it does not look promising. Even if numbers are tweaked, it will end-up one skill spam from tome of justice and Celestial Avatar 2.0 with probably less support and healing, from the other two tomes.

The design is not sound.

Feel my wrath made more sense when it had 30 secs CD instead of the current 45 sec. Mantra of potence is propbably be better if you need retaliation considering that you are flooded with quickness options in FB.

I tried to stick with short bow, but the damage was disappointing compared to mace/axe. I tried to use utilities but with trial and error they were damage waste compared to heroic. Though sustainability in PvE was better than I expected.

Mallyx is still the main line and mace/ace is still where the damage is at :/

I think many people joined the Renegade hate train, cuz there is a “train.” Once a couple of people start bashing something, everyone joins in. That does not mean Renegade is good. Though, if energy was not a limiting factor, it will be fairly strong, even if nothing else changes.

Sadly, what most likely will happen is a slight buff to some utilities with no regard to energy cost. Which is typical of how most rev changes are, rendering majority of rev utilities useless. Renegade will be meta in PvE for condi builds and that is pretty much it.

Since F2-F4 skills and utilities have reasonable CDs, removing the energy from F2-F4 skills and reducing them to 10 for the utilities, will put Renegade in a good position. But this seems to be the most unlikely scenario..

Aomine.5012:

Lonami.2987:

Just remove energy altogether. It’s pointless resource management with no reward whatsoever. That, or remove all cooldowns, though that’s harder to balance for obvious reasons.

At the end of the day, revenant needs a redesign, because it has problems everywhere. Some ideas here.

If they remove energy management, all Mallyx’s skill will recieve a huge cd boost making them essentially useless. (They’re used for resistance and boon removal anyway)

They’d also have to redesign Jallyx hammer and Glint’s boon pulsing.
All of them will receive a huge CD if that’s the case.

Shiro need a redesign too with massive CD on key utilities as well.

Be careful of what you wish for.

That might be good for some skills. Majority of Jalis skills are never used in any game mode. Removing or lowering energy, while putting CD, will make these skills useful.

Lord Velar.1509:

otto.5684:

We have been slowly moving over the last year to being purely condi meta.

Condi damage mostly come from ranged attacks or non avoidable projectiles/AOEs. Power damage requires much more precision to land damage.

Power damage is subject to much more damage reduction mechanics. Toughness. Protection, which is easily to obtain and maintain on most classes. Several classes has mechanics to limit or stop power damage. Condi? Not much. Resistance is only usable by Warriors and Rev, and is only reliable for Rev to stop condi. Then you have cleanse.. which is all or nothing mechanic..

Lastly, it seems condi damage is becoming more and more AOE based damage now between Necros, Thieves and Rev. Just spam the point with multiple conditions. Power builds on the other hand either lack the AOE capacity and do not benefit from stacking the way condi damage does.

In 1v1 or 2v2 condi damage vs power damage are fairly balance. More than that the condi AOE spamming + AOE CC render everything else obsolete. Why bother with accurately landing power attacks when you can spam an area continuously with tens of condis? It is not uncommon to get hit by 15-20 condi in under 5 sec. This is broken..

Cleanse….literally….just cleanse

the only professions that can dish out constant condi damage like that are guardians and necro and even then they cant keep up the stacks once you completely cleanse (which isn’t hard)

Thief has poison, guard has burn, and Mesmer has confusion

Just watch those specific stacks depending on class (necro has bleed btw), then cleanse once those specific stacks are high enough

Thank you for explaining the basics of the game. I learned these six month after I played the game. I do not care how many cleanses you have, if I am playing condi Rev with support and cover, I will just spam the point with AOE condi until I burn you down. There is no counter. This is not condi Rev exclusive either.

We have been slowly moving over the last year to being purely condi meta.

Condi damage mostly come from ranged attacks or non avoidable projectiles/AOEs. Power damage requires much more precision to land damage.

Power damage is subject to much more damage reduction mechanics. Toughness. Protection, which is easily to obtain and maintain on most classes. Several classes has mechanics to limit or stop power damage. Condi? Not much. Resistance is only usable by Warriors and Rev, and is only reliable for Rev to stop condi. Then you have cleanse.. which is all or nothing mechanic..

Lastly, it seems condi damage is becoming more and more AOE based damage now between Necros, Thieves and Rev. Just spam the point with multiple conditions. Power builds on the other hand either lack the AOE capacity and do not benefit from stacking the way condi damage does.

In 1v1 or 2v2 condi damage vs power damage are fairly balance. More than that the condi AOE spamming + AOE CC render everything else obsolete. Why bother with accurately landing power attacks when you can spam an area continuously with tens of condis? It is not uncommon to get hit by 15-20 condi in under 5 sec. This is broken..

phokus.8934:

Why do people waste their time putting these together?

Sharing ideas is always good. Even if they are not implemented, they can be used later by others, or in a different setting, or a different game all together. All inventions start with a weird far stretched idea.

As for the monk, I think this is combining punch monk with heal monk. These two ideas do not mesh that well together. We also have a punch monk already, Dare Devil Thief. And if you are going for a melee caster, that also seems to be taken as well, FB :/

Though your virtue ideas are better than FB tomes.

If you are playing power build in open world, using scepter/torch, you do not need Virtues line. I use Radiance/Zeal/DH for scepter/torch and sword/torch. If you are using condi build though you probably will use Radiance/Zeal/Virtues. You will need the Virtues primarily for Permeating Wrath.

You can use a power build using Radiance/Zeal/Virtues to maintain up time on retaliation, but it works better with GS than scepter or sword. You will use Permeating Wrath, but it will not be a factor at all, since you will have zero condi damage.

I use Spirit Weapons, Sword of Justice, in every open world PvE build.

Caeledh.5437:

otto.5684:

That will not help. The skills will be competing on energy with utilities, weapon and heroic.

Nonsense.

You’re thinking like every other profession where you just activate every ability as it comes off cooldown to maximise DPS.

Obviously with energy in the mix, you need to be smart and spend that energy wisely.

I always love this crap. No other class has utilities and weapons competing for resource to function. There is a reason for that. The implication is that cuz Rev has access to 6 utilities + 2 heroics then Rev is as an advantage. This is 100% false cuz the utilities are mostly unsable crap. Take Mallyx, which is arguably one of the stronger legends: CC break costing 60% of your resource, a strong AOE torment application, mediocre confusion application and a heroic that only use is to be spammed in PvE.

How do you use Mallyx in PvP? Spam AOE and use CC break. Nothing else is of any use. PvE, just use heroic till you run down energy. Is this something well designed? And even if we can say it works, it surely does not for Jalis (which is nothing more than hammers spam in PvE) and barely for Ventari.

Renegade takes this broken system, which usually ends-up in spamming one utility, and make it worse, adding F2-F4 skills requiring energy on top of everything else. All the utilities will go unused in PvE, just spam heroic. All other utilities will go unused cuz energy costs cannot support any use for these utilities. Same in PvP. It will probably be either spam the heroic or daze utility.

I do not want to spam one utility cuz that is all what the energy can support. This is stupid design.

TheShniper.1852:

Every forum has some sort of post like this. How are people making reliable judgements on the class in ither modes besides pvp? This class brings amazing visuals along with pve power if perma quickness. Whivh could replace a mesmer in high lvl content. Firebrand bas great aegis application. You cant really tell what the dps will be like due to pvp gear but i was able to keep perma quickness with vipers and just 15% boon duration. The tomea are fine. With quickness the cast times are pretty much gone so it doesnt matter to much. I do not think this will be good in spvp. I do believe it will be great in wvw. But only time will tell. People have been making negative judgements to quick.

While WvW balance is always an exception, if something does not work well in sPvP or PvE it must be adjusted. I do not need to play 500 sPvP games to figure out that something would not work, considering that I already played thousands of sPvP games on various classes.

And TBH, somethings are self explanatory. I cannot support allies using a frontal cone. You do not need any testing to figure that out..

Caeledh.5437:

Remove the cooldowns instead.

That will not help. The skills will be competing on energy with utilities, weapon and heroic.

Eversor.5186:

guys…stop playing rev and reroll

Highly useful insights. So master experienced Rev who thinks enegy system is great as is, please explain to us why Jalis and Ventari are obsolete in sPvP. Please give us your useful insights of why overall Renegade is perceived negatively.

If you do not know please do not pollute the forms with kitten posts like these.

GS in sPvP is one trick pony, trying to do symbol then whirl. It can work, but if it does not, you are toast. Do not expect to survive too long.

Fractured.3928:

otto.5684:

Removing energy from weapons will cause issues. Better solution is to focus on Legends where energy cause is an issue; Jalis and Renegade.

Curious what issues you think it would cause.

Mallyx in sPvP in particular is going to become too much. Currently the spam AOE chill and torment is somewhat gated by the energy consumption on weapons. If that is gone it is going to be torment + chill fest. Plus, spaming CC break.

Glint is gated by the same mechanics as well. If no weapons cost, you can easily hold protection 100% protection for the entire group even in sPvP.

I have issues with cost of some Shiro skills, but with no weapons cost, CC break spam will become a thing.

Jalis can use ulti on 8 sec CD if weapons have no cost. Which means it will only have 3 sec down time. Mix that with protection from Glint. You see where this is going.

We are much better going into Jalis and Renegade (possible some Shiro and Ventari skills as well) and reducing the energy cost of utilities extensively (since they have CD and add reasonable CDs for some). Removing weapons energy all together, will lead to skill spam, with no drawback, on skills that should not be spammed.

Removing energy from weapons will cause issues. Better solution is to focus on Legends where energy cause is an issue; Jalis and Renegade.

Is it possible to reduce the CD of Virtue of Courage? This will be a good buff to core guardian sustainability. I compare VoC to SoC, SOC is much stronger. VoC is 45 sec CD, while SOC is 60 sec.

I think if VoC base CD is reduced from 45 CD to 35 sec CD base that will be great, at least for sPvP. It will lower the gap between DH and core guardian a bit.

Some of these changes are good. The AI being immune is a must. There are two problems that you may consider:

1) CC break on heals need to be changed to something else.
2) Energy costs of the Kalla are unrealistically high.

I think that F1-F3 skills should have no energy costs. They already have long CDs. Utilities have 15 sec CD, so energy cost should be dropped significantly. 10 energy in my opinion is sufficient.

Since we are on the suggestion topic, I would suggest somewhere in the traits that protection in addition to what it normally does, it reduces damage you receive from condis by 33%. The heal (or another of the utilities) convert conditions to 1-1.5 sec protection for each condi removed. This also synergies with the trait that provides 4 sec protection on using Kalla’s utilities.

I also would suggest that renegade have a new mechanic attach to one of the utilities or the heal providing boon protection; boons are not subject to corruption or removal for the boon protection duration.

I think that Darkrazor’s Daring instead of providing Daze should be defensive in nature. It can be the CC break instead of the heal and provide some sort of defensive debuff.

Lastly, I suggest changing Kalla’s Fervor from what it currently does to 1% buff to all damage regardless of the source. This works for both power and condi buff.

Of all weapons that require a buff scepter is not one of them…

And no, scepter auto should not do AOE damage. That would be ridiculous.

Skuzz.6580:

Darknicrofia.2604:

If you want to reward player skill, then how about also require aiming for every single skill in the game and turn this into a FPS?

There’s a difference between player skill and bad design. Tell me what exactly is the skill in standing behind your allies within sword auto attack range to use your elite mantra to break stun vs standing slightly in front of them?

If your allies happens to have moved half a second to the side before you? Well I guess I wasn’t effing skilled enough to predict when he would move and to what side?

Sigh..
They designed FB with the mindset of them having to be in the middle of the fight to support their allies, hence why they went with cone skills, which works exactly the same way as almost all weapon attacks with a cleave componend do.. How can none of you see their design philosophy about this cone based playstyle…

You really can’t expect FB to play like a druid or any other basic support class that uses ground AoE’s or other circular AoE’s, the sooner you lot get over that the better for the sake of this whiny sub-forum.

Sure the cone might be a bit too short/not wide enough, you don’t hear me disagreeing on that I even advocate them increasing this a bit, but it being a cone is actually what got me excited about FB (having played Holy Pala in WoW where the cone healing spell was a big part of its playstyle, yes that cone was a bit wider and a lot longer but still, it required you to anticipate ally movement and position yourself to get the most out of your spell).

Major thing you missed, there is a huge difference of between doing damage and applying buffs. If I am dealing damage, cone in-front of me makes sense. Both mantra of fire and truth work fine in terms of application cuz they are damage mantras. I am not sure how something like mantra of lore is supposed to be a group support thing. In all likelihood allies will not be in a 300 range 90 degree cone in-front of me.

As far as I have seen all buff mantras currently function as a personal buff. If that is the intention then they are working fine. If not (and probably is not) then they need an application system that allows them to be applied to allies, more likely than not, behind you.

If mantra support is supposed to be a thing, then AOE application is a must.

messiah.1908:

otto.5684:

messiah.1908:

consider taking jallis and using Righteous Rebel
using rotgd and vh give you all together 75% dmg reduction
using also rune of melandru or hoelbrak will give you 25%-20% reduction on duration

so basically for 5 sec you will take if you taking 5k every sec condi dmg which means 25k total dmg it will be 5k dmg 80% less total

using is to bunker or sustain build can be nice

It sounds cool in theory, but in practice you will never have that much energy to be able to maintain. Rite of the Great Dwarf costs 50 energy which renders it unuseable. Then 7 energy to maintain hammers. Just to do this for 5 seconds you will need start off with 60 energy and not use any weapon skills but auto attack.

There is a reason why Jails is not used in PvP.

it cost 40 nrg in pvp. i used it in the last demo will uploald demo of me looking for condi bombing . for testing issue. the dmg reduce almost by 80% and one time 50%.

sure its not condi cleanse but even now or we must have way way way better condi cleanse abilities as the condi spamm is too much.

ele condi, mesmer condi, warrior condi, rev condi, necro condi, ranger condi.

common …

it gives you time. i sue jallis as a support legend and mainly ventari.

but consider it in wvw while 1 is pure healer and other is dmg reduction role.

As others mentioned, if you want anti condi play Mallyx. Currently, no other option works. I do anticipate that scourge will be toned down, but power rev, outside of having a support squad, does not do well. You will be nuked with condis to death. The 5 sec relief from Jails will not save you and comes at a significant mobility cost (assuming you will drop shiro).

I honestly do not see power rev functioning at all with all the boon hate and condi damage coming in PoF. I am not sure Condi build will make it either due to boon hate.

Gaile Gray.6029:

Last Warrior Lord.7248:

Gaile Gray.6029:

We’d like to know your thoughts about the recent PvP and WvW preview weekend that presented the new Path of Fire elite specializations.

Please share your input about the August 18-20 Preview Weekend, preferably in 100 words or fewer

Thanks!

Go to class forums please. Already feedbacks there and I don’t think they are going repeat what already said to here. Plus that this thread going to be cluttered up.

We know there is individual feedback in the profession forums, and I’m sure the devs will read it. This thread is very useful, though, because it’s asking for clear and concise feedback, and that is very helpful to us, in addition to the more detailed input that players wish to share.

Fire Brand

Mantras: Final charge was too weak to be worth using on most of the mantras. The frontal cone application does not work as support. Cone is too small.

Tomes: They fail to provide instant healing and damage mitigation. The idea of melee caster is incredibly bad. This is a bit personal, but I greatly dislike anything that changes my cast bar. It does not fit with guardian play style, and the removal of weapons can put you at a serious disadvantageous in sPvP. As someone who uses mace/shield in some builds, the healing and damage reduction offered by the tomes is substantially weaker than maintaining mace/shield, in addition to losing on the instant healing and damage mitigation.

Axe: Please reduce symbol cast from 1.25 to 0.75 secs and remove the daze.

Renegade

Delete :/

Okay more serious.

SB: Damage is low. Application of skills 3 and 4 is clunky.

F1-F3 functions: Cost way too much and do way too little.

Utilities: Wells that can be destroyed and do not do much damage or support. The AOE daze… Why just why… You have to stop with these AOE CCs.

Heal: Weak, requires you to stay in position. Why is the CC break on it?

Other: Renegade only supports condi. You get 300 ferocity, but that aint much and surely not enough to be used of Herald.

Utilities cost is way too high.

No mobility on either utilities or weapon.

ardal.5403:

Hello Guys,

I have been playing on and off since launch, right now I am coming back for PoF. I leveled a revenant and I am now half way through HoT.

I like Rev, their skill effects (GW1 nostalgia much?) and interesting mechanics, I hate facets visual thou – simply hideous.

Now after reading through this section on the forum I am not sure If I want to continue playing Rev. There is so much negativity for every game mode be it PvE or PvP.

Is it seriously that bad? Is Rev not apreciated in group content or PvP? Or should I just roll a different class and not feel like I am gonna be useless?

Thanks for your opinions!

Both power and condi builds work in PvE and sPvP.

In PvE you should not have any issues. Rev does put good damage while maintains good survivability. I personally find power rev to be a bit underwater in sPvP currently, but surely functional.

My issues with rev is build and weapons lack of variety and lack of range condition (this is where renegade comes). As for renegade, while it was disappointing, it is still not final. I do expect changes before release.

messiah.1908:

consider taking jallis and using Righteous Rebel
using rotgd and vh give you all together 75% dmg reduction
using also rune of melandru or hoelbrak will give you 25%-20% reduction on duration

so basically for 5 sec you will take if you taking 5k every sec condi dmg which means 25k total dmg it will be 5k dmg 80% less total

using is to bunker or sustain build can be nice

It sounds cool in theory, but in practice you will never have that much energy to be able to maintain. Rite of the Great Dwarf costs 50 energy which renders it unuseable. Then 7 energy to maintain hammers. Just to do this for 5 seconds you will need start off with 60 energy and not use any weapon skills but auto attack.

There is a reason why Jails is not used in PvP.

ZeftheWicked.3076:

otto.5684:

The main comparison for now is with Herald. Yes, Kalla is a buff to condi damage in PvE group setting. In every other shape or form Herald is much better, especially in PvP. In addition, Kalla has too many utilities that will end-up not being used due to functionality and energy cost. The new weapon is borderline useless.

Again, there are 8 other new elites specs, that we dunno where will they stand when the dust settles. We do know where the 9 HoT elites stand. I can assure you renegade cannot compete with them. Not even remotely. And its not just numbers adjustment. There are some major functionality problems with Kalla. Explain to me how will you fight a DH or Chrono with Kalla?

Agree to disagree. First off Renegade does not chain you to Kalla. Or the shortbow. Only thing you’re chained to as renegade is the elite spec line and wholly optional F2-F4 skills that don’t take away anything from core Reve.

Renegade is also a boost to PvE power damage not just condi – 33% crit chance when endurance is full + 300 ferocity from traited kalla’s fervor stacks talks. And for all the eternal complaining bout energy costs, stacking fervor requires 0 energy. Just crit with your autos and you’re already on your way there, more so if you flank them.

Also the much hated Kalla utilities can end up being very useful in PvE setting. Razerclaw’s edge bleeds are basically huge free condi damage boost if they are calculted off your condi damage and duration when allies apply them. 50 bleeds in total to grab.

The elite is also impactful – it’s like vampiric presence only you know…meaningful.
Even if we scratch the damage part (cause upkeep cost will lower yours), the healing coefficient is quite nice and renegade with all the bonus crit chance and ferocity can go into unusual stat sets like for example crusader (power, toughness, ferocity, healing power), to ramp it up to around 500 health healed per hit per ally.

That’s a huge breathing room for the healer, who can get far more offensive if renegade is serious about his elite.

As for DH or chrono – how you’re gonna beat them as renegade? Answer: you can’t beat what doesn’t exist. And that’s pretty much what you’ll get once spellbreakers, soulbeasts and scourges hit pvp with all the boon and block hate. Dragon Hunsters are practically toast once these guys roll out. You’re not expected to beat everything with one single char. You don’t go duelling a thief (given they know their stuff) as a necro, or trying to 1v1 a zerk warr as a ranger.

While not as bad as dragon hunters, chronomancer also aren’t gonna have a field day when a soulbeast or spellbreaker jumps them. One will be able to outsustain their damage without losing capture point for a second, the other will rip every boon they have and tear them open a new one th moment they try to block. Scratch that, both can. Now both warr and ranger have on demand unblockable time frames

You’re not expected to handle each and every profession and their build. As for herald’s superiority in pvp you may wanna hold off your horses for reasons mentioned above. Tons of boons? blocking? On herald you’re not that far from being in same kittenty situation as DH and chronos. You too won’t enjoy a visit from your friendly neighbourhood spellbreaker, scourge or soul beast.

Meanwhile renegade has some nice non-boon defenses like condi damage reduction, life leech, or ample cc. It’s not perfect, but i think ppl give it far too little credit.

What you are saying is redundant. You explain what renegade does. Everyone posting here understand what it does and understand it is a buff to PvE condi damage. That is all what it is and does and that is the problem. It is just the same build using the same weapon (mace+axe) doing the same thing with slight group support.

New elites are supposed to open new builds either thematically or in play style and renegade does neither on top of being close to useless in PvP. It needs major work to be release ready, and probably some major restructuring of utilities functionality and costs.

ZeftheWicked.3076:

Has anyone forgotten here how core reve is able to output 30k condi damage now?
And renegade sure doesn’t look like a downgrade in terms of conditions.

And power builds are gonna get even sweeter – tons of extra ferocity and crit chance on renegade talk. Don’t like Kalla? Don’t take her. Don’t want shortbow? No one’s forcing you. The traitline alone is huge to push revenant far ahead in dps compared to what it was just recently.

Now will he be garbage or not compared to other classes – that remains to be seen. But lets remember that this beta prieview is far from balanced (hi holosmith damage) and there will most certainly be changes, if not to renegade himself then to others.

The main comparison for now is with Herald. Yes, Kalla is a buff to condi damage in PvE group setting. In every other shape or form Herald is much better, especially in PvP. In addition, Kalla has too many utilities that will end-up not being used due to functionality and energy cost. The new weapon is borderline useless.

Again, there are 8 other new elites specs, that we dunno where will they stand when the dust settles. We do know where the 9 HoT elites stand. I can assure you renegade cannot compete with them. Not even remotely. And its not just numbers adjustment. There are some major functionality problems with Kalla. Explain to me how will you fight a DH or Chrono with Kalla?

The utilities cost is way too high to be used effectively. In addition to that they are area limited they can also be destroyed.. The elite offers no stab, no condi cleanse, no sustainability and no mobility.

Renegade is currently the worst of the legends. It was also the weakest elite spec that I have tested. It had good damage on golem though, so I guess that counts for something!

Improvements: Not sure, but to substitute herald/glint:

- It needs mobility.
- It needs some major sustain. Yes there is a protection on utility use, but that is no where near to what glint and shield offer.
- Offer something more for power build beside ferocity. Yes 450 ferocity is surely good, but I am already sacrificing 2% damage per boon.
- CC break not tied to heal.
- Stronger heal.
- This goes to to both Kalla and Jalis, the utilities cost is way too high to be used efficiently.
- The F1-F3 skills felt out of place and context. The bombardment was good AOE damage, but at 40 energy cost.. The other two where okay if they had no energy cost, but they do..

Gaile Gray.6029:

We’d like to know your thoughts about the recent PvP and WvW preview weekend that presented the new Path of Fire elite specializations.

Please share your input about the August 18-20 Preview Weekend, preferably in 100 words or fewer

Thanks!

I would advise going to classes respective forms for detailed feedback. Overall, I was a bit disappointed. It seems sPvP will be more condi and CC spam than it is now. None of the elites I played seem to be release ready.

My impression (even mentioned by the devs in interviews) is that the goal was to make the new elites change the classes feel and mechanics. It seems cool in concept, but it misses one key component, most players pick or play a class cuz they are looking for a specific play style. Class mechanics do not change just cuz you added one elite.

That was evident in fire brand tomes. Virtues goal is instant heal and damage mitigation. Tomes failed to do that then make you a melee caster, two words that never go together. In addition, it takes away the appeal of guardian game play; instant no gimmicks functionality.

That was my impression with most of the elites. They tried to do something new, that does not mesh well with the class existing mechanics and functionality. Some where good though, like Dead Eye and Holosmith, they just need more polishing.

Hopefully we get to try the elites in PvE before expansion release.

Kidel.2057:

You noticed that the Firebrand can give Retaliation, Stability, Aegis and Protection with 1 skill, right? Not to mention all the other OP ones with basically no CD because they’re mantras.

I played FB the most of all new elites, and the above is not correct. None of the mantras provide protection. Aegis is provided by the heal. Retaliation and stability by the elite.

Overall FB is better than renegade, but renegade does better damage. The problem with renegade in PvE is that it offers nothing new. You will still end-up using mace/axe playing using the same exact play style.

In PvE, I can see it improving the existing condi build by 10-15%. Currently the condi build is the strongest in PvE (also one of the strongest among all classes). Though it will basically be the same; mace/axe + mallyix while running energy in elite, then Kalla and run energy in elite

SB will not be used, neither will Kalla’s utilities, since they cost way too much energy.

From PvE standpoint I can see it work great with D/P and P/P. I dunno about WvW, I have not seen anyone playing it in sPvP manage to do well. Much of the damage holds up in rifle 4. I was playing against a thief, blocked it once and dodged it twice. It is very easy to predict and avoid.

I tried it a bit outside of PvP. I also ran into it solo 3-4 encounters while playing on my guardian playing core build. I was clearly ahead in both damage and sustain ability.

It is weak.

It is hard to tell considering that everything is new, but one of the things that stood out is that scourge can dish even more conditions than Reaper when it was at its worst and got nerfed.

RabbitUp.8294:

otto.5684:

RabbitUp.8294:

NemesiS.6749:

Guardians is in the best spot IMO among all the classes. At least from a wvw perspective core guard it still a strong build, dragonhunter can also exchange the core guard a little. You have burn guard also. I just tried firebrand and honestly i think it will be very requested for wvw, so much support and boons, with staff it will probably be among the new meta, loved it. So guard is in a good spot, all 3 are usefull, core, DH and firebrand seem liek will have its place.

Remove Stand Your Ground then come tell me about that good spot.

Also consider there’s a game outside of wvw.

Guardian is fairly strong in sPvP, PvE and WvW. In addition, it is one of the few classes where core builds actually work somewhere.

Fire Brand though is a different story.

More than half of the base profession see use in some game mode, so not that few.

Yes, but how many classes capable of doing 35K damage? How many classes have none elite builds viable for anything? How many classes have multiple top tier builds in sPvP and WvW?

The only other class that is this versatile is elementalist.

I pre-purchased because:

1) I like GW2.
2) Previous record of the dev in supporting the game and provide steady stream of content is good.
3) The new location seems interesting.
4) 9 new elite specs.

If you like the game and regularly play it, $30 for the amount of content to be provided at lunch + content to be provided through the expansion after is surely a good deal.

Joxer.6024:

Norjena.5172:

In my opinion the bleeding should get replaced by torment, and it needs some chill or at least poison.

No..no..no…we need the bleeds from a pve standpoint to be more viable as torment is crap in raids really but on your other points, yea, ditto.

Torment damage in the last patch = bleed damage for none moving target in PvE. Currently condi rev is the top parsing build for rev and is one of the highest damage builds.

As for Kalla, well, it surely will work in PvE. It even pushes the top build damage wise further, and provides some damage buff support as well. From PvP standpoint… it does not work. We will sacrifice herald, with all the boons and major survivability for this…

I did not like the bow. I guess it is better than nothing, but it did not deal much damage and felt slow and clunky.

In addition, for the legend overall high energy cost + long CDs is surely a formula for success.

I played 8-10 sPvP games with FB. I tried multiple builds for condi damage or support and none of them worked well. I played 20-25 sPvP games in the last 3 days. I have not seen one game with someone playing FB do well. Not one.

As it stands core guardian (forget DH) is much stronger. Mantras are good, tomes on the other hand…

RabbitUp.8294:

NemesiS.6749:

Guardians is in the best spot IMO among all the classes. At least from a wvw perspective core guard it still a strong build, dragonhunter can also exchange the core guard a little. You have burn guard also. I just tried firebrand and honestly i think it will be very requested for wvw, so much support and boons, with staff it will probably be among the new meta, loved it. So guard is in a good spot, all 3 are usefull, core, DH and firebrand seem liek will have its place.

Remove Stand Your Ground then come tell me about that good spot.

Also consider there’s a game outside of wvw.

Guardian is fairly strong in sPvP, PvE and WvW. In addition, it is one of the few classes where core builds actually work somewhere.

Fire Brand though is a different story.

I guess this thread is probably the best place to leave feedback regarding mantras. I do think they are good. They provide strong buffs on a short CD. I will go one-by-one though there are two main issues that all manta’s have: the cone application makes them not very effective in supporting allies and the final charge is typically a waste.

Mantra of solace: Restring Reprieve is a good short CD to provide aegis (9.5 secs traited). Rejuvenating Respite though does little healing and if you use it you have to wait 30 secs to get the mantra back and 2.75 sec to cast it again. It does not work at all sPvP. Also, Restring Reprieve and Rejuvenating Respite worked with Liberator’s Vow trait and Smiter’s Boon, but did not work with Healer’s Retribution. Only the mantra of solace cast worked with Healer’s Retribution. This does not seem to be intended.

Mantra of Flame: Good damage. It is decent even without condi damage. In addition, this is one of the rare third charges that can be worth using. I would suggest lowering the CD to 15 secs.

Mantra of Lore: Surely great condi removal with short CD. This skill in particular the final charge should never be used. Why should I put my condi removal skill on 25 sec CD + 2.75 sec cast to remove 2 condi? Clarified Conclusion only provides 5 sec of reg over Opening Passage. Clarified Conclusion should remove 5 condi to be worth the risk, especially that this mantra will be used only in sPvP to begin with.

Mantra of Truth: This is cover condition. Yes, it provides decent debuffs, but the problem is utility slots are either used for damage or sustainability and this provides neither. I can see it somewhat useful playing a condi build in sPvP. Again Voice of Truth is not worth it.

Mantra of Potence: Incredibly strong buff on short CD. I felt this is more for solo PvE/small group kind of skill. Again, Overwhelming Celerity should not be used. Since you will lose the skill for 25 secs + cast.

Mantra of Liberation: Fairly strong CC break and stab. Just make sure to never use Unhindered Delivery.

I think the application of damage/condi mantras is okay. The ones used for support, I suggest the application goes from a cone to semi circle and possibly increasing the range a bit. Right now, they do not really provide group support. It is kind of hard to get an ally in a 300 range of a small cone.

Something needs to change with the final charges. The risk of putting the mantras on long CD + 2.75 sec cast time is not worth it at all on any mantra, except solace, which will only be used out of necessity.

As for mantra of solace in particular, I suggest buffing Rejuvenating Respite to 5-6K heal from where it currently is (3.1K), and make Healer’s Retribution work with Restoring Reprieve.

RabbitUp.8294:

Honestly, the spec won’t be salvaged by simple number tweeks. It needs to get back to the drawing board, which won’t happen.

So what will happen is that it will be released as is, maybe with some minor tweaks. It might work as condi dps in pve, or rarely as a quickness bot in some specific group compositions.

If it doesn’t work as condi dps, a year later it will receive some dps buffs. So, to the majority of the playerbase, it will be a succesful elite spec, because it does damage.

And that will be the story of support guardian. Firebrand will forever be our “support” spec. So, for the next couple of year, if not for the rest of the game, guardian, the class advertised as the support class, will have 2 damage builds and possible a quickness bot build, that will be strictly inferior to chrono.

That’s my problem with firebrand, that it takes the spot of guardian’s support spec. That it’s our one shot and there won’t be another. With HoT, I criticised DH, but as problematic as DH was, I could look forward to the next expansions and the possibility of a supportive elite spec.

Now that the day came, I would rather get no elite spec, than know that firebrand will be it.

To be fair, fire brand will work well in PvE as condition damage spec. But in that respect it’s neither strong or unique in any form.

The purpose of virtues is to provide instant healing or damage mitigation. Any form of casting on virtues is the kiss of death sPvP. In addition firebrand line provides little in terms of sustainability and surely nothing to the extent offered by the virtues.

In addition one of the main appeals of guardian is the lack of gimmicks. No kits or changing casting bars. If I want that type of game play I will go play elementalist or engineer. It does not fit with the guardian gameplay or style.

There is no redemption for tomes. No possible fix absent a major restructure of guardian overall gameplay and functionality.