Guild Wars 2

First a brief disclaimer and introduction of sorts: I have played GW since the day of it’s release here in Australia oh so long ago, totally immersed in the game’s systems and lore. I spent many years, like alot of people when GW2 was announced, following every nuance of it’s evolution, waiting with quiet agony for the first beta weekends, etc. I love this franchise like no other in the PC domain, and have a seemingly bottomless capacity for any and all developments in the game, both the good and the bad.
I have also followed this forum, and the developer frequented Reddit, for quite some time, and I am very aware of the perceptions of the functions and approaches in relation to both realms.
It is not remotely my intent to pointlessly stir up malcontent, but simply to enquire, particularly in light of the most recent alterations to the game in the form of the ‘NPE’, and especially the reworking of the trait system to it’s current state, as to the apparent lack of concern being voiced by the community since the revelations recently that Nexon’s monetisation manager was in the lead developmental position now for the new core gameplay features.
Before the commercial release of GW2, when it was announced that Nexon had purchased their way into the game, many of us, after the dire saga that was Maple Story and it’s ilk, were horrified at what would become of the game once Nexon had a foothold in design decisions in relation to GW2.
Monetisation in terms of gameplay intrusion is a monumental matter, and of concern to many, and it’s effects have been both felt and endlessly debated in a multitude of ways, from core system changes (such as dyes) once Nexon had their employees in developmental positions in ArenaNet, to the post-release loot open-world loot reduction fiasco (some of you might remember the storms here on the official forums around this topic, and ArenaNet’s response), through to issues like the scrapping of the initial trait system in favour of this current version.
It is with a particularly suspicious and cynical (in light of the nature of the company now involved in the development of the game) eye that I view this latest evolution of the game.
The reworking of the trait system to it’s current (widely abhorred) state could be seen to be as something of a trial run for future development, as a means to gauge both existing player acceptance of the gem store having a role in accessibility of core game features, and to test the degree to which new players in particular would willingly convert currency to in-game gold to simply purchase in-game features that they could no longer reaslistically acquire through their own, more limited in-game means.
Due to the oft-stated awkwardness of the trait accomplishments and unlocks, is it simply a coincidence that these seemingly deliberately difficult changes were offset by the introduction of a simple (highly priced) monetary purchase to alleviate the difficulty for new players?
To sum up: does it seem to anyone else that the current trait system was a testing ground for a monetary exchange for previous core gameplay features, being slanted in particular to new players? Does it then follow that the designers of such a system would then step up their efforts (and internal positions), to further refine and implement a new, more far-reaching system? Are we in for another iteration of the current trait system, albeit a retooled and redressed implementation? What will become of the current trait system, now that it has served it’s experimental purpose?
Regardless of the origin of the current trait system, the revelation that Nexon’s monetisation manager has spearheaded one of the most widely advertised features of the expansion to come, indeed a system that is touted as the basis for all future development of the game, has me, once again, deeply troubled.
The necessity of funding in development and the drive of profit has been debated to death in the past by myself and many, many others on the official forums, yet it’s role in the core systems of the game has never been more relevant.
The original game that many of us cherish so dearly still starkly stands against what GW2 has become in a multitude of ways, but in relation to this topic, the financial model that ArenaNet employed to both thrive, and continue the development of the game, has been circumvented by an investor, and quite unquestionably one with an origin that could not be in more stark opposition to the core tenets that set GW apart from the crowd.
I would very much like to hear other opinions on this recent announcement in regards to Nexon’s employees new degrees of control over the development of GW2.

Unspecified.9142:

That’s a nice little recounting of what happened but you left out a few points:

- Anet acknowledged the possibility of a problem.
- Anet felt the existing thread was insufficient and wanted more data. This doesn’t mean they ignored the thread they closed, more is well… more not the the same stuff they have.
- They created a stickied thread with an Anet post to start it to make it more apparent, official, and hopefully get noticed easier.
- After declaring it an “X-files level conspiracy” they kept working on it. Seriously, think about that for a moment. The problem they found didn’t jump up and slap them in the face after they gave up. No, they kept looking in to the problem.
- Once they found a problem (may or may not be ’the problem) they were big enough people to admit it publicly. Again, think about this. They created another sticky post to say “Hey, we were wrong. There is a problem. Sorry about that.”

Just the fact they made a post to say “We were wrong” is more than you ever get from most companies. Heck it is more than you get from most people.

Sorry but if you’re going to talk about what happened you have to give credit were it’s due and Anet IS due some credit here. Sure they aren’t perfect but the way you tell it it’s like they covered their ears screaming “LALALALALA” until the code jumped out and slapped them forcing them to fix it. Which is obviously impossible and it’s disrespectful to the hard working people at Anet to ignore the time they put in to checking and double checking loot tables and lines of code to hunt down what amounts to a bug.

- An acknowledgment of an issue is not the same thing as declaring in the very title of their thread that it is a “perceived” issue to some. Quite a large difference there.
- They closed the existing thread, with all it’s pertinent information and reports, and reopened it as vaguely directed call for more information on an issue they did not directly admit even existed, without providing any concrete, methodical means or tools for people to utilise to steer the ‘investigation’ in any meaningful direction.
- Simply declaring it an ‘X-Files’ level conspiracy, with all the inherent derisive intent that implies, was enough to clearly outline the seriousness with which they were undertaking their endeavours.
And finally, you stated that they created another sticky post to say “Hey, we were wrong. There is a problem. Sorry about that.”
It is the clear lack of an apology that is the issue here, and it is fast becoming the hallmark of any red post.
After such a protracted and heated topic is brought to any form of conclusion by them, it is the very least they could do.
All this rallying of defense around the developers, to the resounding mantra of “entitled whiner”, serves one purpose only, and that is to further derail the issue from it’s origins, which are sadly now sinking to the bottom of the forum pits.
You have to hand it to the Nexon insertion, and their ability to manipulate the blockheads. They really do know their stuff.

marnick.4305:

Valandil Dragonhart.2371:

puffintoast.6501:

After everything that has been thrown into this topic by so many people, I think you owe us a little more than this, Colin.

What’s a good form of recompense, I wonder…. hmmm…

This post/topic starter gets a massive +1 from me, and probably one of the best +1 candidates this forum has seen. Well done.

A ban for trolling? A suspense for being entitled? Plenty of good responses I could think of.

Not too shabby, Marnick – two posts, two appearances of the tiresomely popular ‘entitlement’ dribble. Oh how much IGN has to answer for, birthing that monstrously idiotic catch-phrase.
I did love the ‘suspense for being entitled’, though. Quite the best oddly-relevant typo I’ve seen for a while.
I laughed until I stopped.

killcannon.2576:

Dyes=cosmetic, chests=cosmetic, or worthless, and there is still no proof of the DR bug the same five people keep preaching about. The only thing that has drastically changed in game has been Fractals, which actually gives people more money and loot, they added bank space for craft mats= saves on money, and had sales on various things people wanted=saves on money. You need to come up with some better stuff, because your old routine is stale.

You think it’s stale? That I need to “come up with some better stuff”? This topic, and all it entails, was my invention? Where the hell is my bloated Nexon salary, then?
Man, I would happily go the rest of my days never posting or thinking about this garbage again.
The sole purpose is the quite evidently vain hope that a better-educated gaming populace might be the way to save this wonderful game some of us waited so bloody long for.
But I think you’re right, at the end of the day.
Ranting about these suicidal business decisions, and lamenting what will be lost because too few people use their kitten brains, all the whiles watching the heavy-handed, and typically silent, mod team do their business, has been rather pointlessly aggravating.
Cheerio, and enjoy! I’m sure in a few months you and your ilk will be left basking in the lack of dissent on these forums, happily chirping away blind nothings at each other about how great it all is now that the complainers have gone.
And then you’ll all bugger off to the next FotM game, and those of us who love this franchise will try and sift some worth out of the developers wasted talents and years.
Also, Crystin, one final thing: Do yourself, and your dinosaur of a company a favour, and go check out the Path of Exile cash store.
Even in it’s fledgling infancy, a small team of New Zealanders have crafted a shop that even in your wildest flights of fancy you could not hope to equal.
Cosmetics done properly.

DarcShriek.5829:

She’s not the lead developer. She’s not the project Manager. She didn’t destroy the game. The immature “Let’s Hate Crystin” posts are really dumb and boring.

She is the lead on the monetisation team, and was ported over directly from Nexon as part of the shares buyout in June.
Some of the more unscrupulous decisions she made right off the bat have been listed here: such as the dyes, the godforsaken lottery chests and keys straight out of Maple Story, and the list runs on if you go back over the design decisions that have made it out into open air.
But undoubtedly, the one they have instigated involving the reduction of open-world rewards to cripple the players in an asinine drive to the gem-to-gold market, is the crowning achievement of their strategy to shoehorn a clearly ‘Western market’ game into their repulsive mold.
It is impossible to deny the changes that Crystin and her team have brought to the developer’s table since the middle of last year, if you simply do the research that many others have done.
The monetisation team from Nexon have had a clear, resounding impact on the gameplay and direction of this title, and will continue to do so while their presence inside ArenaNet persists.
As such, they are the targets for people’s quite justified anger, and I find it highly doubtful that they did not expect such a backlash.
If anything, they are getting off incredibly lightly at the moment, while everyone sits on their hands waiting for the wonder laurels to arrive and solve the mess…

SpyderArachnid.5619:

There is no actual “proof” or statements of what exactly she has done, because Anet doesn’t release that information.

But, she is in charge of the gem store. And everything about the gem store. Lottery, RNG, etc is all her doing. Never had that stuff before till she came along.

The dye system is another example of her work. Originally we had account bound dyes. All dyes were accessible on your entire account, not bound to just one character. Then they were changed to character only and then we couldn’t trade them anymore either (which they later changed to make them tradeable again). This was an obvious money grab to get us to buy dye packs.

Now there is several things being done to the game that players feel are a push to the gem store. Like drops rates being nerfed, farming being nerfed, DR, hard to make gold, etc etc. Nerfs constantly coming to any form of money making to make us spend real money for gems and trade them into gold to make any money.

The reason why people connect this all to her, is because none of this was happening before she joined. It wasn’t until after she joined Anet that all these thing started happening. Guild Wars 2 went from being a AAA MMO, to a F2P grinder MMO.

Gods, so nice to see this topic out of it’s shame-bin ‘official’ thread, and back on the active side of the general forums where it belongs.
Very very well said, Spyder.
Incidentally, every single time I see your forum name I get that They Might Be Giants song “Spider” in my head for hours.
So thanks again!

If the implementation of laurels are the sole ‘improvement’ that is being made in these upcoming patches in relation to open world reward, it is becoming rather hard to envisage any other scenario than a downward spiral over the course of 2013.
If Nexon’s focus on maintaining this incredibly poisonous, reductionist approach to such a long-standing franchise they have chosen to invest in does not make some serious adjustments, they will run themselves out of business frighteningly quickly in this fickle MMO world.
The sheer amount of choice that is in the market has created a very broad and accessible environment for players, and if one thing is becoming clearer by the day, it’s the evaporation of brand loyalty.
If a company treats their playerbase with such open, cynical disregard, no matter which arm of the company is responsible for the toxic decisions, people will make their opinion felt by simply up and leaving for greener pastures.
Be very careful how you tread, Crystin – I don’t imagine being the leader of the monetisation team that brought this franchise to a grinding halt would look too fancy on your CV…

I am finding lately, after months of this hobbled return system, that my characters are almost steering toward emergent pacifist gameplay – where possible avoiding conflict altogether, and simply sight-seeing, due to the pointlessness of participating in events when the DR from repeatedly fighting the same mobs will kick in BEFORE you actually finish the event.
This particular aspect of the current DR almost boggles the mind. When the fundamental activity of most events is conflict with a certain type of mob, requiring the eradication of, at the very least, a certain amount of said mob, why in the name of all that is holy would you implement such a reward-hampering system?
The discouragement from the repetition of this system of receiving nothing of worth after ‘swinging your sword again’ should not be underestimated.
During the five odd years of this game’s development, and with their prior experience in DR system iteration from Guild Wars, is it really expected of us to believe that this is the best that they could come up with?
It’s a sorry day when the tenuous evidences of a conspiracy are far more reasonable than the supposed reality of an ineffectual team of developers.

ScribeTheMad.7614:

So, if DR is designed to fight bots, and if they’re telling the truth when they say they’ve largely impacted the bots, then the DR largely needs to go away until such time as the bots become really bad again. Anything else is a tacit admission that it wasn’t just the bots the DR was implemented to hobble, i.e. “legitimate” farmers.

Unfortunately, the bot ‘problem’, and the DR ‘solution’, were a manufactured event right from the beginning, and the coming patches will neither relinquish the monetisation crew’s hold on the loot system, nor address in any way the DR system.
The implementation of laurels is a diversion – a placation to those who are still furious at having their capacity to accrue through gameplay the items or materials they desire.

Martin Kerstein.3071:

You can buy the quaggan backpack straight from the gem store.

By my beard, what sorcery is this?
Wonderful news, to be sure!
The happiness of life is made up of minute fractions.

Tigirius, thanks for the rundown on STO’s system – I have never ventured into that game, so it was very interesting to hear their approach; and that last paragraph you wrote contained some fantastic ideas that would clearly benefit the open world reward system, not to mention incentivising people to traverse more of the maps.

UrieltheFlameofGod.8643:

I wonder if Anet learned anything from all the people who got frustrated with RNG in the last several holidays and will just sell the backpack directly instead of hiding it in a box

Crystin and her team are going to flog the RNG magic box ‘n’ keys horse until it is dead and buried, then they shall dig it up, reanimate it using Necroeconomics, and commence flogging it again.

Zeldain.5710:

Unfortunately that’s not an option here, it’s a very controlled very “gated” environment… everything is guided and on rails and carefully balanced to remove any chance of emergent behavior.

But most of all, the decisions they make can all be traced back to a path leading to the cash shop, including DR.

You, good sir/madam, have just won today’s over-sized Cupcake of Ultimate Frosting Overload.
Very well said indeed.
For anyone still needing a helping of cynicism, I suggest watching the “Manifesto” video a few times more. Oh, the irony.
On a positive note, I hereby put it to the developers that there should be instituted a punching bag somewhere handy in Lion’s Arch, that we may use freely after returning to town.
It’s small wonder the gods left Tyria – perhaps they sensed the approach of Nexon?
Now there’s an end-game boss.

tigirius.9014:

So here it is a month later with multiple reports. Total reply count between two threads 2000 replies (1200 for the closed one and 800 on this one) and still no serious take on it. No interview dealing with this topic at all. The silence imo speaks volumes about what’s going to happen with this problem. I could be wrong but I doubt it. Oh well there’s other titles that appreciate legit farmer players that are due out this year if something’s not done in this one.

Every day I am gobsmacked that it is literally more fun to play FTL than haul my jaded backside through another series of Scrooge mobs, and barren, reward-free events.
Can you even begin to imagine how much more successful the monetisation team would have been if they had simply applied the concept of putting desirable, fun items in the gem store, instead of gutting the game, and forcing their way into people’s wallets?

Vorch.2985:

It would probably be more likely that they release certain popular GW1 missions in GW2 to help tell the back story. I don’t see them creating another game to compete with themselves.

I suppose I imagined it more as an enhancement for Guild Wars 2, a way to bring in another swathe of people to the game who may not have experienced the original Guild Wars, and perhaps find it now a little dated visually.
Or perhaps, admittedly, a way for sad individuals such as myself that still cannot stop playing the original game, even after the continuance of the series has been released, to have the best of both worlds, so to speak.
I just find Tyria in Guild Wars 2 so breath-taking, that I cannot help but continually wonder every time I go back to the original, how incredible it would be to have access to the same assets that make the sequel so staggering, and I wondered if any others felt the same.

With the proliferation of higher-level companies making successful use of systems such as Kickstarter, I began to wonder if there would be the possibility, considering the current degree of success and market-presence that Guild Wars 2 is enjoying, for a remake of the original Guild Wars title.
From what I understand, Guild Wars 2 was built upon a modified version of the original’s engine.
From the wiki:
“Guild Wars 2 uses a heavily modified Guild Wars game engine which includes support for true 3D environments, more detailed environments and models, better lighting and shadows, new animation and effects systems, plus new audio and cinematics engines and a more flexible combat and skill-casting system.”
This remake would be a step-up from the usual HD glossing-over fare; ideally the injection of the models, textures, animation systems, sound, etc, from Guild Wars 2 back into the original game would be the priority, not the alteration of any of the story, skills, classes, locations, etc, etc.
It would simply be a visual, and aural, upgrade to Guild Wars.
As to whether the complications of retro-fitting the old engine to accommodate such changes would be impossible; or trying to port assets and systems from the old game into the newer version of the engine would also provide insurmountable problems, I could not remotely hazard a guess.
It’s just such a wonderful setting and story, the original Guild Wars, not to mention the ground-breaking level of customisation of play-styles for it’s time, and to imagine it combined with Guild Wars 2’s incredible visuals and sound is an incredibly exciting prospect.
With the sheer volumes of money that are poured into such worthy undertakings as this through the crowd-funding projects, I cannot help but wonder if it has ever crossed ArenaNet’s mind at some level.

Hickeroar.9734:

…I’m not saying there’s not a problem with their RNG rates. I’m just saying that it’s not as bad as people make it seem….and people should be used to it by now.

I think they could get away with RNG in GW1 because that was a very unique game. The problem is that now they want to compete with games like WoW (They’ve flat-out said so), and that kind of player base wants something a lot more concrete than the RNG schemes they’re using.

People should be used to it by now? Everyone just needs to abandon the concept of fair reward for effort, suck it up and plow on ahead?
What about the people who started playing post-November, who might not have had the chance to accrue enough wealth to provide a buffer against inflated costs and crippled incomes, or the people who might enjoy playing at a more sedate pace due to time restrictions? Should they just ‘get used’ to a clear financial inability to enhance their character’s potential, or to see a return of equal worth on their efforts?
The comparisons to games like WoW are quite apt – they intend on competing with, and superseding, Blizzard’s title.
Why, then, should they view themselves as exempt from providing the same level of return for invested time on the behalf of the player?
The level to which people are willing to grudgingly accept the wholesale reduction of income and reward in Guild Wars 2, and concurrently concede the necessity to utilise the gem store gold conversion system to supplement their hampered resource flow, is the measure of the success of Crystin’s program.
I’ll take an honest subscription model any day of the week over this slimy, underhanded manipulation.

Serophous.9085:

Sooo…detecting people making gold from karma is quickly fixed, quickly spotting bug with unidentify dyes drop rates is fixed, noticing people using a recipe for unlimited ectos and fixing that, something just doesnt seem right here.

Plus, someone just linked an interview with colin, and now he says they are going to make vets and champs more rewarding! Wasnt that suppose to have been done in nov?

From the November 15th patch notes:
“The drop rarity of Rare and Exotic weapons from certain places in the world (champions, veterans, and players in WvW) has been increased. Rares and Exotics should be much more likely to drop and every champion should be guaranteed to drop loot. This was to ensure that world loot drops were not a significantly worse way of acquiring rare and exotic items than crafting and running dungeons.”
And:
“The amount of loot that drops for downscaled players has been increased. You should now be able to receive level-equivalent loot until you are fighting at a downscaled level that is less than 2/3 of your actual level. You should also receive loot a greater percentage of the time as well as receiving a greater percentage of experience, gold, and karma. For level 80 characters, this means level 55+ areas will be able to drop level 80 gear and give about 75% or so of the other rewards. Previously, these areas would give level 77 gear at best and closer to 60% or so of your rewards.”

Dradiin.8935:

Ok a lot of people really dislike the RNG we all have to suffer from in this game, i love the game but i am really tired of the horrible risk vs. reward this game has implemented.

So i was going to just spend 15.00 a month on gems in the gem store like i was paying a subscription, i have done this since release in my way of supporting the game.

Today i just had it…. 9 runs in 3 dungeons and i got 2 greens the rest blues, sure i know this is really bad luck, but i hate it, i hate feeling like i just wasted my time. I do not want to resent the game i play, but i do more and more.

So for xmas my kid got me a Giant glowing 100 sided dice (from thinkgeek.com i think) I decided i would RNG Anet, sure they make millions a day i bet, but this is my way of “sticking it to the man”.

Once a month i will roll my 100 sided dice, if that Dice does not hit 100 i will not buy any gems for the month. If i hit 100 i will then roll again to show how much i will spend. 1-80 $.5.00 / 81-99 $10.00 / 100 $20.00.

This is how i feel RNG hits me… generally i think i am being generous, but regardless its how i intend to show my support to Anet.

Maybe others will get on board with me ?

I think you need to skew those odds a little more:
1-99 – Porous Bone
100 – Value of accumulated Porous Bones over past months.

Shear Force.9154:

Sadly this is how I feel as well.
Last boss just broke my heart.
Combat is, well it’s alright I like the fact that there is only 8 skills I can use at any given time but whoever thought it was a good idea to just go from hundreds of skills that each class had to this system and claim that you have more or the same amount of character build customization is just idiotic, guess what I see a guardian with a great sword coming at me I know exactly what hes going to do.

PvP is kinda useless, unless you’re all about bragging rights, but since it’s WvW who are are going to brag to? Your own server? And the most hilarious think about it is, if you’re dominating in WvW you get a few mob to spon so you can go kill em for the loot, but farming is being penalized…

Which brings me to my last point, I swear I read it time and time again that Anet don’t want people to grind for anything to achieve what they want to achieve.
You want acended gear? You have to farm fractals… and on top of that they still don’t have a group finder of any kind so you’re left with shouting in LA for an hour that you feel like doing fractals.
Most of the people will go and farm for the money but screw that with the anti farm in the game that’s a bit of a bummer, and who in the world in Anet, a company that’s all against the grinding decided to put in legendary weapons as a reward for the BIGGEST grind I’ve ever seen in ANY mmorpg game.

I’m sure the irony is not lost on the developers, especially the poor sods who participated in the manifesto video.
Every bad decision, such as the FotM, the ascended gear, the reductions of open-world reward, character-bound dyes, etc, can be directly traced to the design turn-arounds post-June; and every single one of them is at the behest of the monetisation department that came along as part of the shares buyout deal from Nexon.
NX currency is just around the corner, I fear, as soon as the current player-hemorrhaging reaches a peak when March draws to a close, and the true business model brought in with the shares deal has had it’s predictable effect.

Xar.6185:

Sadly most of the interview will be
1) sorry we can’t talk about that yet
2) my co-workers are doing incredible work
3) we’ll talk more about <insert feature here> soon, when it’s closer to release
4) Information we already know from the blog post / previous twitch

The bad thing is if the people at mmorpg ask really probing questions or press on any one subject the marketing guys might not let the devs talk to them anymore…

Cynical… I know… but recent events have soured my perception I guess…

Eerily accurate, sadly enough.
Must be infuriating, his role. The guy clearly has such enthusiasm, but his hands are so very bound; and every word so restricted.

Perhaps it’s a nod to the mysterious black cats that roam the Blue Mountains here in Australia…

Aproposs Of Fire.4056:

puffintoast: I don’t want you to sit in silence and endless map X loot Y isn’t what I was talking about either.

My point was that one hurts their cause by contradicting themself (I know that Leamas is right when he says it’s fair to say what is meant…). I know posters don’t mean to, but giving contradictory information undermines their own post. It’s simply the way it is received by the reader.

And I do not mean to put words in anyone’s posts. As I said, my goal is the same as yours… to get this issue resolved.

Absolutely, if people are making posts that contradict their own findings about the topic, it is far from a positive action.
It is the sheer amount of intolerant moderation and silencing that is going on in these forums that has some of us very unsettled.
The importance of staying on topic is paramount, but having said so, the lateral thinking that is a hallmark of a great community should not be discouraged, lest we end up a hive of drones spouting nought but affirmations.

lynspottery.6529:

“Porous bones” would make a great mat for an armor set. Not only do they drop almost all the time no matter what type of mob you fight, but they drop in quantities. I can see it now…visualize if you will, Charlize Theron’s character of the evil queen…her wedding dress had bones in the design.

Now that dress was beautiful, not to mention the amazing crow cape (lots of birds in our game) that just flies away when hit. Now that would be a great animation in combat. lol

I think it’s a fantastic idea, Lyn.
Over the years of playing MMO’s, and pondering the concepts behind things like grey items, I have often thought it would make a great addition to the crafting world – the ability to make flavour-only items, such as city clothes.
Considering the reality of the influx of grey items such as the infamous porous bones, due to the changes made to the open-world loot tables last November, I find conversation on this topic very relevant to the OP.
I myself was infracted yesterday for posting on this very topic, believe it or not…

Aproposs Of Fire.4056:

…To All:
I know you all don’t mean to do this, but I see this a lot in this thread and in the other thread (conflicting statements).

You know how I first introduced myself in this thread – it was with a sense of mistrust (and I apologize for that). The above was the primary reason for my attitude. I can only wonder what other readers think.

Please make sure your posts on this issue are reasonable, well-founded and able to be supported and backed up.

>> Flame away (sigh)

Aproposs Of Fire, I have no interest whatsoever in flaming, but I do take issue with your intent upon steering this thread.
The original thread that ran starting last year was of community origin, and was full to bursting with varied opinions, speculation, number-crunching reports and more than it’s share of emotion.
People are passionate about this issue because it is a deal-breaking one – something that a player’s ongoing commitment to the game hinges upon. Discussion about the ramifications of this topic are inherent in the thread, and I’ll be kitten if I’ll sit in silence and watch the open discourse we had dry up, and get shoehorned into endless “map X, loot Y” posts, as people jump through the pointless hoop they have set in front of us.
Our original, comprehensive thread was hijacked and eliminated the cowardly way, consigning it to death by enforced inactivity, converting it into this funnel of thought that encourages only ‘concrete’ data reports, despite the ludicrous concept underlying the premise that the customers are responsible for this situation.
If they want only number-crunching posts, they need to set up a thread for it to be done correctly: change it’s OP to include a format option for said reports, and categorically exclude anything but these reports.
And immediately afterward, reinstate our original thread in it’s entirety, so our freedom of discussion can return. Removing our thread, and replacing it with this vague call for assistance has given the moderators far too much leeway to remove undesirable conversation.
I, and I’m sure many others, have experienced far too many ‘infractions’ with very tenuous justifications of “straying from topic” in relation to this thread.
I’d hate to be proven correct in assuming this was most of the reason for the new thread, the simple desire to blanket displeased customers opinions.

Erasculio.2914:

puffintoast.6501:

I would venture to say that a good percentage of people who play the game, given the right equipment setup, traits, and weapon selection, tailored to a suitable area to perform according to the preceding requirements, and having had the copious amount of practice this individual had at this run, could do the same, yes.

In other words, someone who trains in order to build skill could become a skilled player and do something less skilled players couldn’t. Your point is?

You stated that a ‘skilled’ player could provide the function of five lesser beings. And provided an example of such a talented player being fantastic at something that was clearly the result of tailoring a specific set of circumstances.
Surely building such ‘mad skillz’ required time and effort? What we mortals call “training”.
The video you provided does not indicate ‘depth’ at all, unfortunately.
A deep game is precisely that – constantly unfolding layers of complexity, even if these layers were masked in simplicity.
You can feel fantastic about yourself playing it if you want.
There’s an awful lot of players out there with entirely valid opinions to the contrary of yours that would beg to differ, but there you go, I s’pose.
Many a mickle makes a muckle.

Erasculio.2914:

…a good MMO rewards skilled play more than anything else…

Uh-oh.
And what was that reward, if I may ask?
Also, is there any chance we could see that same run done with all the different classes/traits/weapon sets, etc?
If the combat mechanics are so profoundly deep, then surely there is a way you could tailor any class to perform exactly the same, and what with your grasp of the ‘high skill ceiling’, I’m sure it would be a breeze.
When can we expect those videos?

Erasculio.2914:

kineticdamage.6279:

… as a classification of these "people who want changes’.

Yeah… Definitely lack of understanding a simple post.

puffintoast.6501:

And the simplicity of skills and combat design is not an illusion. It takes a frighteningly short amount of time to learn the functions and detriments of boons and conditions, and it is more than a little dispiriting how little combo-fields will affect combat in terms of complexity and depth.

Really?

We have already had some people here complaining about how their team had a hard time fighting against Kholer in Ascalon Catacombs. There are still players who fail to complete the “destroy the burrows” event in path 1. Meanwhile…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llHO8EFnGlE

Here we have a single elementalist doing the entire path by himself.

The skill ceiling in GW2 is so high, due to how complex the game is, that a good player can do more than 5 average players together, while using the same skills. This is a sign of how good the combat system is – it rewards player skill more stats.

You claim to understand the game well… Are you such a good player to be able to do what the elementalist did in that video? Otheriwise… Guess you still have more to learn.

I would venture to say that a good percentage of people who play the game, given the right equipment setup, traits, and weapon selection, tailored to a suitable area to perform according to the preceding requirements, and having had the copious amount of practice this individual had at this run, could do the same, yes.
Or do you mean to imply that he/she went into this run on a whim to demonstrate their grasp of the ‘high skill ceiling’ totally unprepared, and could apply said to any area of the game in such a fashion?
There is quite a difference.

Erasculio.2914:

kineticdamage.6279:

I could do it backwards :

If you could provide as many examples as I can provide proving you wrong – how there is a layer of complexity that goes beyond the “press 1-2-3-4-5” – sure.

The irony is that the reason why some people think this game is too simple is their own ignorance about how the game works. Requests to bring the game back to a more simplistic “tank/DPS/healer” show only how the more complex system of GW2, in which a character’s role cannot be so easily simplified to one word, is not being understood by some players.

It could well be argued that it is precisely the simplicity of the ‘every man for himself’ aspect of combat, in the sense that everyone is responsible solely for themselves, that is causing people to crave more diversity.
Reliance upon others in group situations would appear to be the essence of a truly interactive multiplayer game. This is the aspect of the trinity that people are missing.
And the simplicity of skills and combat design is not an illusion. It takes a frighteningly short amount of time to learn the functions and detriments of boons and conditions, and it is more than a little dispiriting how little combo-fields will affect combat in terms of complexity and depth.
The dearth of skills available through weapon-tied mechanics only exacerbates the problem of repetitive, over-simplified combat, and the trait system goes nowhere near far enough to encourage distinction or specialisation in a character, directly leading to players finding it difficult to become immersed.
I think over-homogenisation is the keyword. The fear of being compared overly to the masses of ‘clone’ MMO’s, coupled with the desire to make the game as accessible as possible, has been their undoing.
It’s far from unfixable, and early days yet, but the manner, and rapidity, in which people will turn rabid defending certain advertised but not realised features of this game is a little worrisome.
Criticism is important to growth.

Ouroboros.5076:

Such a blatant lack of understanding of this game’s mechanics does not give much credibility to this thread.

It’s even more sad coming from a GW1 player where each class used to use maximum 20 skills in Vanilla, where attributes had no influence at all on the gameplay, and where you could not swap skills on the fly. On a single Fractal run I may use up to 30 different skills with my Mesmer, depending on the ennemies, my group needs, and the situation.

This game’s mechanics are much, much deeper than GW1, so complex in fact that it’s hard to really understand them all.

To quote Steve McCroskey: “Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit sniffing glue”…
Did I really just read that???

Blueshield.6291:

…Amusingly enough, since the livestream I’ve now found several threads full of posters complaining about AoEs being overly effective in WvW. I was still unable to find any predating the livestream.

Geez, that is woeful.
You’d think they would have had the foresight to at least plant some threads over the last month or so before going public.
Under New Management indeed.

Sauzo.6821:

Is it really that hard to just move out of AOE? Does ANet really think its OP? I don’t buy the AOE is for a pvp reason. I see being able to stealth 90% of a fight and kill people a much bigger problem in pvp than AOE. I kinda agree that this is another attempt by ANet to pigeon hole people into having to buy gems with RL money. I mean look at DR, the bots are all but gone yet DR is still ingame. Drops as well have all but dried up, either i got really kittenty luck on 3 80s or something has happened to drops….

A far simpler solution would have been the one they employed in Guild Wars, eventually.
The monsties simply MOVE out of the Aoe. They scatter, making the AoE far less effective, unless it is used as a circuitous form of crowd control.
This was a solution they hit upon, and have stuck with, for some time.
Rather odd that they have not simply applied it here, which I suppose leads to people wondering what the real aim is.

Edited to say thanks to Blueshield for that post above – much obliged for the insights there, especially into the PvP aspects.

lynspottery.6529:

Manually going through code? Excuse me? If I recall correctly, code is just a set of numbers or signs lined up in a row and the computer reads this code like we read the written word.

I am amazed they boasted so much about their ability to see the numbers and percentages behind the scenes when they now admit to having to manually comb through code lines.

What sloppy work. If I had done this type of work when I worked in my old telecommunications position back when we actually were using DOS, I would have been fired on the spot.

Nicely observed, Lyn.
They juggle the ‘cutting edge’ proclamations with the ‘old school’ grind, dependent upon the requirements of the situation.
In this case, it’s simply buying time. Gives the appearance of slaving over the hot anvil, poring with cracked spectacles at the archaic lines of code piled to the rafters on ages-old parchment, whilst rabid bats peck at their sweat-encrusted foreheads lined with worry and concentration.
Fills the gap until the open-world reward ‘fix’ of limited cheevo token food stamps are brought to bear upon our endless complaints about the problems caused by their war-time loot restrictions in the “Grand War on the Bots to Save the Economy”™.
Gods, makes you feel dirty enough just typing that out. Imagine having the role of a public face in ArenaNet, and standing up to spout this nonsense on behalf of the latest hare-brained Nexon directive.

Minion of Vey.4398:

This was my first impression too. AOE damage was a concern I never saw mentioned on the forums, yet now it’s some “pressing issue” they hear a lot of complaints about?

If 100 people on here made a top ten list yesterday of “things most complained about on the forums” I don’t think AOE damage would make the list on ANY of them.

Really not happy with what they’re up to here. They need to consider just saying “We were wrong, we’re not going to do this at all”. Not do what they want to do, which is force it through then say “We’ve considered all of your feedback and will keep an eye on the developments”

Would have to totally agree with you there, Minion of Vey.
Where have all these complaints about AoE been lurking?
And as others have pointed out, when they design so many events and encounters around player’s being attacked by hordes of beasties at once, should the new solution really be to focus on single-target damage?
Perhaps single-target will be buffed enough to compensate, but surely, due to the refusal to split PvP/PvE player skills, thus abandoning the system they used in Guild Wars, this will only create a new cycle of nerfs when people are finding single-target damage too high in PvP to counter, due to a lack of dedicated healers.
Seems like they are spinning the PvP-centric balance roundabout that games like World of Warcraft have been on for the better part of a decade, but for their own stated reasons of keeping skill-sets and ‘learning curves’ short, and theoretically easier to understand for all.
I really do not recall people complaining about the skill-split system in Guild Wars. Designing this iteration of their franchise with all the combat depth of a puddle in order to maintain ‘accessibility’, coupled with the inevitable rounds of nerfs from complaints stemming out of PvP, will leave the game-world starved for the dynamics they so professed to be including, and the constant re-invention of play-styles that has driven the original Guild Wars for so long will be nowhere to be found.
There is a veritable boatload of skills in Guild Wars, the vast majority of which contain different versions of themselves dependent upon what aspect of the game you are involved in.
And the game benefited hugely from the diversity.
But I really do not recall reading anyone complaining at all about AoE in the PvE world, despite the fact that these changes will affect it enormously.
Deja vu.

I’d settle for porting all the new models, textures, etc, back into Guild Wars. Can you imagine the awesome? I think I’d just sit in pre-searing forever, occasionally running out to gate-monkey for someone so I could get another glimpse of Althea.
Mmmm, Althea.
Didn’t I read somewhere that Guild Wars 2 sits atop the same engine?
Guild Wars Re-imagined.
ArenaNet, I am throwing money at the screen. Make this happen!

ColinJohanson.2394:

I posted this elsewhere, but just quickly wanted to update where we stand on this issue:

We’re continuing to look into this and have a team of folks sifting through insane amounts of data based on all of your reports. This is an incredibly time intensive and unfortunately mostly manual process while we work on building tools to streamline this in more automated ways so it’s going to take a while.

We’ll update once we have more tangible information to share.

Without a standardised report for people to fill out, how much automation can there be?
Surely if this is an issue of collating and comparing, you would need to provide some way for people to contribute data in a specific format?
The OP asked for ‘concrete’ data, whilst providing no definition of such.
Now might be an ideal time to provide people the means to assist, if this issue truly is being looked into on the scale implied.

Vlad Morbius.1759:

I’m not surprised by the lack of response, after two months of total neglect I’ve come to expect this kind of treatment from Anet now and frankly I’m rather numb to it all.
To be honest this whole experience has pretty much soured me on the game in general and I find myself playing less and less. Nothing else to say other than…thanks for ruining my game experience, keep up the good work.

My sentiments precisely, Morbius – and many others I’m sure.
It’s nice how nearly 5 years of eager waiting for this title has been converted in a space of months to this sullied and corrupted situation.
To the monetisation team, and especially the executive direction and expansionists at Nexon: I once again would like to express the hope that one day someone stomps the ugly boots of blind, uncaring profitisation on something you hold dear for a quick dollar or two.
Vacuous parasites so you are.

Edited to say: Thanks for posting whilst I was typing, Colin.
D’oh.

Leamas.5803:

As far as I’m concerned they remain in the game because ANet wants them there…

Total communication fail from me there, sorry.
That’s exactly what I was attempting, rather poorly, as ever, to say.
Sorry ’bout that.

morrolan.9608:

If thats the case why are there still blatant botters? On my server last night apparently there was a large group in Frostgorge.

And one thing that I found interesting in that quote from Robert Hrouda is that he referred to farmers not botters.

Botters, regardless of external or internal origin, serve several purposes within the context of the game’s financial and developmental focus, and as noted repeatedly, seem to persist despite countless reports, and in the face of all PR to the contrary.
It is an enormous stretch of the imagination to believe that a title can spend as long as this one has in development, boasting so many advances in live-server monitoring, and yet be incapable of swift, decisive and accurate action in relation to bots.
The original Ranger trains were in prominence for the pre-November period, when open-world loot was unaltered basically from the beta levels. Their prominence and persistent presence allowed people to accept, however grudgingly, the installment of heavy-handed DR to control the economy.
Post-November saw the rise of the node teleporters, and far less of the mob trains, providing far less in the way of items of direct use into the BLTC other than raw materials.
Combined with the newly implemented DR, and the loot reductions in stark contrast to the stated improvements from the November patch notes, and coupled with the ongoing and unchanged costs of repairs and travel, the more casual players, or the newer ones who had not had access to the ‘golden age’ pre-November, struggled for both funds and the required armor/items, leading directly to the increase in gem/gold conversions as BLTC prices climbed.
They remain in-game because they serve a purpose, regardless of who put them there…

Navi.7142:

Vlad Morbius.1759:

We have the tech to turn off their loot without having to patch.

That’s interesting. Didn’t know that.

This intriguing little snippet of info came up in the last thread we had about this topic, and coupled with the acknowledgment that they have live teams constantly monitoring each zone, it’s players, rewards, etc, the reality of intent here is blatantly obvious; and the possibility of a ‘fix’ for this situation is almost non-existent.
Which leaves us to grapple everyday with the conflict of loving the game, and feeling so terribly manipulated.
I really, really wish I had paid more attention to the warning signs that started flashing in June of last year.

ColinJohanson.2394:

Zaxares.5419:

Hadson.5024:

Am I right thinking that we wil receive that new crowns both for daily/monthly and for some open-world activities?

Yes, Colin stated that you will get 1 Crown per Daily and 10 Crowns for a Monthly. This is planned to be introduced during the January update.

The blog also stated that Crowns will be offered for achievements down the track, possibly linked to “open world achievement tracks”, which suggests things like completing Jumping Puzzles, Dungeons and Mini-Dungeons, and maybe even Diving Goggles. However, this will be introduced after the January update.

I just want to clarify, the blog post never said anywhere that rewards for normal achievements outside of daily/monthly achievement will give tokens (crowns). We haven’t finalized what the rewards will be for the expanded achievement rewards, and it’s entirely possible they will have their own unique reward system.

Pssst… Colin, while Crystin isn’t looking, can you flip the loot switch back on for a whiles please?

Soulstar.7812:

…You sabo-trolls need to stop with the same post over and over again, and leave my game alone..

I think Nexon would beg to differ with you about whether or not this is, in fact, your game.
Also, the ‘sabo-troll’ thing immediately made me think of ye olde worldie ‘sabway’ build, from far back in the dawn of time when men were real men, women were real women, and those cheeky kitten Asura were a mile underground blowing each other up for science.

From “Colin Johanson on Guild Wars 2 in the Months Ahead”:
‘To make playing in our open world worthwhile, we’ll make it rewarding enough for players to spend their time there across all levels. It’s extremely important that we stay true to our philosophy that you should be able to play Guild Wars 2 the way you want to play the game in order to reach the most powerful rewards.
One of our focuses is expanding and leveraging our achievement system.’

So there’ll be the cheevo lottery…
Which is fine, I suppose, for another token grinding diversion. But it is certainly not a solution for the serious issue at hand.
No mention was made in this post of repairing open world reward in the simplest way possible: by rewarding players for the things they do in the open world, via the simplest mechanic available.
Useable/profitable loot from any action undertaken in the open world. Not a limited-scale achievement-based token accumulation process.
No mention either of altering the currently over-priced for income map traversal system, to encourage players to traverse the world and partake of the open maps more freely and continually.
No mention either of class-resuscitating bug-fixes, and quality of life changes, to encourage players to enjoy their class more in group events, or even soloing in the open maps.
Still, people seem excited about getting a very limited amount of new tokens to play another new lottery with soon™, so that’s something at least.
Here’s hoping the class gear boxes don’t require gem-bought keys to open…
Or did I just give Crystin an idea that slipped under her radar?
Uh-oh.

cargan.5689:

The next big event is the Wizard of Tyria event.

Starts with singing Asura lining a yellow brick path out of Lions Arch.

Its a three part event where you have to find Traherne a brain, find Logan Thackeray’s courage and get Caithe a date.

+1 to this idea. Nice one, Cargan.

Grunties.6841:

I perceive that I quit this broken bug infested gem store, I mean game. You cannot have my stuff, nothing dropped since 11/15

What about your Porous Bones? Can I have those?
I am using them to construct a tower in honor of my favorite monetisation manager.

It’s perplexing that they are still clinging to the non-division of PvP/PvE skills, despite classes like the Mesmer clearly demonstrating that the functionality of their skillsets do not translate across.
They really do need to split them, and tailor skills for environment and purpose, as they had them in Guild Wars.
It was never terribly difficult to read longer tool-tips, and learn the differing applications of the same skill between the two environments.
But then there is a world of difference between the two versions of the Mesmer, the old and the new.

Aproposs Of Fire.4056:

…I don’t mean to say that this thread is dealing with “non-issues”… far from it. I just know how ANet works and I know that they will address this issue. I also know that the way they address it may tick me off a great deal. But I know enough to keep my cool and wait for it. Through the years I have learned that they (ANet) are sincere in trying to get it right (usually)…

I’d have to agree with you in principal there. It may take a wretchedly long time to arrive, but ArenaNet certainly do get there in the end. Look at the reworks for the Ritualist, to take but one example from their past, who went from being a clunky, laborious sloth to a veritable powerhouse.
But the fundamental problem here is not their capability to repair.
The issue is that the reduction of open-world gain was not a game design decision, nor an error.
It was, and will remain, a financial one, and one that was not made by ArenaNet.

Death Reincarnated.3570:

IMHO, by now, ANet should have responded back to this debacle. They should act with honour and respond back – even just towards their loyal fans.

I understand that there is the possibility that the moment they respond, players will jump all over their comment, and perhaps, turn it against them. However, any response a this stage will be more beneficial than negative – especially in the long term.

I am still having difficulties pinpointing when DR kicks in. Honestly, neither I or any other players should be using up their time to run “tests” with regards to this issue. We have given enough evidence that this issue needs addressing (ASAP) and it’s been way over a month since this issue first surfaced.

Please ANet, be the better man and do this the right way.

The excuse that gets touted that their customers will pounce on them if they dare comment or commit to any stance or POV, or that catering to one thread of complaints will snowball into a mountain of reactionary threads demanding answers to a multitude of complaints is not valid in the slightest, given the standards of service they proclaim to aspire to, the market they have entered.
After all, wasn’t it Mike O’Brien that said they won’t be happy until they have become the new number one?
If the current number one has people like Greg Street in the kitten trenches every single day wading through the irate and the unsatisfied, then ArenaNet had best gird their loins and cease hiding behind flimsy excuses and speak up.

Tolmos.8395:

…It’s a shame, too, because GW2 really is a good game.

That’s the bunny right there. The realisation of Tyria revisited, as it moves forward into an even more tumultuous future, is just staggering. I have always loved the setting of this world, the peoples and their plight, and the sheer amount of effort that has been put into sculpting such an astounding land is just breath-taking.
But the jarring insertion of the new business model directors, and the rapid-fire design reversals they immediately actualised, has led us here, to the sad reality of what is going to be done – the shift of focus away from immersion and fulfillment of promise into the dreadfully bland world of economics.
“Mountains out of molehills”, the white knights proclaim. The game is just the same.
But every tale gone awry has a beginning – a little twist of direction here is as good an indicator as you will get of where the new management is leading.