Well, it’s instanced so calling it an open world content might be rather misleading.
Point being that there are better formats for the kind of content that you want; dungeons and open world content. They’re better for reasons that’ve been covered in over 40 pages.
You’re right, easy mode raid is not the only way. Unfortunately, at the moment there’s no way available at all, and easy mode raid is something that at the moment is the most likely to happen (seeing as it would require leat amount of resources).
I’m willing to make do with easy mode raids, because waiting for something that would fit me better might be way, way too long for my liking.Perfect is the enemy of good.
But dungeons already exist?
So? They offer neither the story nor the rewards of the current raid, do they?
Raids offer neither the story nor the rewards of dungeons, what is your point?
That’s precisely my point. If i am after the story and rewards of raids, telling me to do dungeons doesn’t solve anything.
…which you already know, because it has been explained in this thread (and to you personally) several times before.
2. I don’t deserve the rewards because I like a different mode then you, I deserve them because I’m better at the game then you. I’m good. You’re not. That’s the honest truth.
In that case all the best rewards should be removed from PvE (including raids) and put into PvP. Likely gated behind Legendary division or tournament participation. Because, let’s be honest, compared to top PvP players you’re as bad as Ohoni. Maybe worse, since he does pvp and you do not.
The honest truth is that you are not “better at the game”, but merely better at the specific gamemode. One that you enjoy likely because you’re good at it.
There’s nothing about this gamemode however that makes it superior to all others.
In the end the main reason for you to get better rewards is that you enjoy that gamemode and i do not. Ans that’s not a sufficient reason.
1. That’s precisely MY point. If i am after the story and rewards of dungeons, telling me to do pvp doesn’t solve anything. You’re basically saying that no gamemode can have its own story. Should the HoT story be added to wvw? that’s ridiculous.
2. I’ve already said a million times, billion times, trillion times, anet can go ahead and add legendary armor to pvp/wvw/other areas of pve, completely expected and fine with me, as long as its a different set, so we can all be happy, jeez. READ my posts.
(edited by randomguy.1283)
I lot of the bad impressions people get from raiding is from pug attempts. Yeah us raiders know that pugs are annoying and awful too, the real raiding community is within guilds.
Um, you can’t kick people at the end of raids to sell them, they don’t work like that…
“Before you even try to enjoy raids, the old system in GW1 must be brought back. Party members must work with their team for better or for worse.”
That’s actually kind of how it works in raids…
Please stop commenting about things which you don’t know anything about.
I don’t claim to be a better player, I am a better player. Because I put effort into being a better player. I deserve the reward because I put in that effort.
Maybe “superior” wasn’t the best word for me to use. Legendary armor is a cosmetic and convenience item only, so I’m completely fine with it being gated behind one kind of content. If it gave an advantage over other players, I would not be ok with that.
There’s a good chance they’ll add another set to pvp/wvw/other areas of pve at some point anyways.
“The number that do it is irrelevant”
No, it’s relevant. If 99% of people who have the armor did hard raids for real as opposed to 1% under your plan, my armor will still look more prestigious. You keep trying to say that won’t be the case, but it is.
(edited by randomguy.1283)
It’s probably best that a mod just close this discussion if you can even call it such a thing anymore as its devolved from somewhat rational, to well this cesspool.
Wait, there was a point at which this was somewhat rational? O_o
I’m not sure its really a great idea to close this thread anyways, people should be able to discuss this, although the discussion has took a turn for the worst. And a new one would pop up anyways.
Point being that there are better formats for the kind of content that you want; dungeons and open world content. They’re better for reasons that’ve been covered in over 40 pages.
and that may be true, and when they release a dungeon or fractal version of the Forsaken Thicket, with the reward structure from the raids intact, then you will begin to have a point, but I still think that would take a lot more work for a lot less return than just making an easy mode raid, making it a far worse alternative.
But dungeons already exist?
Again, show me the entrance to the Forsaken Thicket dungeon and the conversation is over. Until then,. stop bringing it up. Asked and answered.
Show me the entrance to the Ascalonian Catacombs raid.
Show me the entrance to the Silverwastes pvp arena.
Show me the entrance to the dragon’s stand wvw borderlands.
Show me the entrance to the shatterer fractal.
Show me the entrance to the mossman world boss.
Show me the entrance to the open world cliffside map.
Show me the entrance to the Arah wvw battleground.
Raids are no different than any other content in that aspect.
Well, it’s instanced so calling it an open world content might be rather misleading.
Point being that there are better formats for the kind of content that you want; dungeons and open world content. They’re better for reasons that’ve been covered in over 40 pages.
You’re right, easy mode raid is not the only way. Unfortunately, at the moment there’s no way available at all, and easy mode raid is something that at the moment is the most likely to happen (seeing as it would require leat amount of resources).
I’m willing to make do with easy mode raids, because waiting for something that would fit me better might be way, way too long for my liking.Perfect is the enemy of good.
But dungeons already exist?
So? They offer neither the story nor the rewards of the current raid, do they?
Raids offer neither the story nor the rewards of dungeons, what is your point?
Well, it’s instanced so calling it an open world content might be rather misleading.
Point being that there are better formats for the kind of content that you want; dungeons and open world content. They’re better for reasons that’ve been covered in over 40 pages.
You’re right, easy mode raid is not the only way. Unfortunately, at the moment there’s no way available at all, and easy mode raid is something that at the moment is the most likely to happen (seeing as it would require leat amount of resources).
I’m willing to make do with easy mode raids, because waiting for something that would fit me better might be way, way too long for my liking.Perfect is the enemy of good.
But dungeons already exist?
You are the person who brought forth an idea, the burden of proof is on you, not me. To shift it on me is dishonest.
You were the one that made the case that two clearly dissimilar things were “the same,” it burden of proof is on you to make that case, and so far you have not.
I rested my case because anyone can plainly see that you don’t actually think easy mode raids should be fun, you only want the rewards.
People keep saying this, presumably because they believe " only want the rewards" is insufficient reason to do anything (when of course that alone would be a solid reason), even though I have routinely responded that this is an inaacurate summation of my position, as while the rewards are certainly A factor in why I want easy mode raids, they are far from the ONLY factor involved.
It’s like if someone is hungry, and also enjoys burgers, and they ask for a burger, if you say “well, you’re just hungry, any food would be just as good,” that’s technically inaccurate. Yes, any food would sate the “hungry” portion, but it would not satisfy the “want to enjoy the taste of burger along the way” portion, so it’s an incomplete solution.
Yes, an alternate method of earning raid rewards would certainly solve part of the problem, but we would still be left with the part of the problem that involves being unable to fully experience the raid content without being “properly geared” and “meta built” and “in a party of all people who are equally prepared.” Those who just want to get in there and have some fun with it do not have that option currently available, and would not even if the rewards were made available via other methods.
“Where IS the Dungeon or Fractal in which you can fight Sabetha?” Hate to break it to you but you won’t be able to fight sabetha in easy mode raids either, because sabetha is actually difficult. If you change the encounter and still name it Sabetha, that doesn’t actually mean its the same thing, it’s not.
Fair enough, but I laid out the conditions that I was looking for in an “easy mode” version of the encounter, one in which all the mechanics would play out the same, just with less penalty for failing them, less damage involved, for example.
Ideally, if you really know what you’re doing and the entire team plays the encounter as if it were hard mode, and they succeed at every step along the way, then the outcome would be identical to playing it in hard mode (if perhaps completed a little faster due to lower boss HP). If, on the other hand, they try, but tend to screw up a few times, they would be less likely to wipe and have to reset, the penalties for missing a dodge or not running a bomb out fast enough would not be as severe.
Players would be able to experience the conditions of the hard mode content, without the elements that tend to cause player frustration. Again, this may not appeal to you in the least, and that’s ok, it doesn’t have to. At all. Just accept as a fact that there are players for whom this would be appealing, and they are the intended audience of the easy mode version.
Also why do easy mode raids need the same bosses? Who cares?
/handraise
“Where IS the Dungeon or Fractal in which you can earn Magnetite?” Rewards=/=Content
True, but it is part of the raiding package. They can either include those rewards as a part of easy mode raiding, or through some entirely different method. Given how they’ve worked on other projects, easy mode raid seems like the easiest option from their side.
You are proving my point over and over again that you don’t actually care about having fun in a video game, only rewards.
I’m afraid that’s not the case, no matter how often you try to insist that it is. I’m really nto sure why you even continue to insist it, as it would in no way help your case against easy mode raiding even if it were true.
“You were the one that made the case that two clearly dissimilar things were “the same,” it burden of proof is on you to make that case, and so far you have not. "
I compared dungeons and fractals, which exist, to YOUR plan for easy mode raids, which do not exist. I wanted you to explain to me HOW your idea was different from dungeons and fractals.
I found your answer particularly funny because nothing you described was particularly different from dungeons and fractals, besides the rewards ofc.
You are the person who brought forth an idea, the burden of proof is on you, not me. To shift it on me is dishonest.
I rested my case because anyone can plainly see that you don’t actually think easy mode raids should be fun, you only want the rewards.
“Where IS the Dungeon or Fractal in which you can fight Sabetha?” Hate to break it to you but you won’t be able to fight sabetha in easy mode raids either, because sabetha is actually difficult. If you change the encounter and still name it Sabetha, that doesn’t actually mean its the same thing, it’s not.
Also why do easy mode raids need the same bosses? Who cares?
“Where IS the Dungeon or Fractal in which you can earn Magnetite?” Rewards=/=Content
You are proving my point over and over again that you don’t actually care about having fun in a video game, only rewards.
I rest my case.
Although I’m pretty sure the amount of people that would really benefit from this is limited to the 10 or so people on this forum complaining about it and is an extremely extremely insignificant number of people, to the point where anet shouldn’t care.
Well, if you’re pretty sure that every person bothered by this issue are here on the forum complaining about it then I guess the issue is resolved. That seems like a perfectly reasonable assumption to make, given the overwhelming evidence of “you would like that to be true.”
The problem is there’s ALREADY easy mode raids, they’re called fractals and dungeons, do those. Because easy mode raids already exist, I see no reason for anet to waste their time with this
But those aren’t easy mode raids. Those are other content, which are not raids, but which are easier than raids, but to go back to the first point, are still not raids.
Please explain to me the difference between dungeons and raids other than the difficulty and that one is for 5 people and one is for 10. Heads up, there isn’t. a difference.
Changing from a skill gate to a time gate makes the armor less valuable in the eyes of most raiders. Gotta love how you people keep ignoring this fact.
I do not care about that. This is not about them, this is about the game population as a whole. Any change to any aspect of the game will result in some people having a negative reaction, that does not mean that the change is a bad thing.
If certain people can only be happy because they have something that others don’t, then they deserve to have that happiness taken away so that those who appreciate the item for what they have can have it too.
“I know a TON of players who would enjoy this content who simply aren’t interested in the current difficulty level.”
The ENTIRE point of raids was to be difficult content. If they’re not interested because of the current difficulty level, they’re just not interested.
But if they would be interested in it if it had a lower difficulty level then they would be interested in it.
It makes it objectively less valuable for everyone
I do not think that word means what you think it means.
I don’t want people to be able to beat the raid bosses on ANY tier because that ruins my experience since I feel much less accomplished when I beat those bosses. Sorry, but I actually like feeling like a kitten when I kill these things. That won’t happen if any kind of easier mode is made, especially like that.
That’s a pity then, but if the cost of allowing ten more people to beat it is that you feel less good about beating it yourself, then that’s a cost well worth paying. Ultimately, you are not more important than any two other players, and if your happiness must come at their expense then you are not owed happiness.
I am aware, if it would actually help the games population, as I said many times before, I would still support easy mode raids even though I would be worse off myself.
Although I’m pretty sure the amount of people that would really benefit from this is limited to the 10 or so people on this forum complaining about it and is an extremely extremely insignificant number of people, to the point where anet shouldn’t care.
The problem is there’s ALREADY easy mode raids, they’re called fractals and dungeons, do those. Because easy mode raids already exist, I see no reason for anet to waste their time with this.
The raids are not hard. What makes them hard are the time-gates. Eliminate the time gates and have tiered rewards based upon the time it takes to down the bosses.
You clearly haven’t played the raids because the timers are not what make them hard.
Correct. Eliminating the time gates (enrage timers) would not make the fights face roll easy. However, it would go a long way to addressing the build/profession/player diversity issue.
By adding enrage timers to every single encounter, they are effectively saying “Zerker/Vipers or go home – and please don’t bring your dps ranger.” Even with every other mechanic they put in the fights, the CORE mechanic of every fight remains – kill fast.
Removing enrage timers would fix that. Adding in tiered (gold, silver, bronze) reward levels based on kill speed would ensure that teams that do the fight EXACTLY as anet intended are still rewarded for that effort – and for those teams who continually suffer or have issues (and there are many out there – no matter what people want to say on these forums) – they would have the option of going more survival focused (with the understanding they would get a lesser reward).
I would hate to see raids become super easy, but I do believe there is way (possibly the one I and others outline above) to make them a little less punishing and open to groups who just want to have fun and experience (read – actually do not just see on youtube) the fights without the high levels of dedication (again, understanding they would get a lesser reward).
I am very optimistic and pleased to see they are at least considering alternatives (even though I will most likely continue tackling the fights at max level – I do enjoy the challenge). I hope they come sooner rather than later. I know a TON of players who would enjoy this content who simply aren’t interested in the current difficulty level.
“I know a TON of players who would enjoy this content who simply aren’t interested in the current difficulty level.”
The ENTIRE point of raids was to be difficult content. If they’re not interested because of the current difficulty level, they’re just not interested.
I know that nothing anyone can say will change anyone’s minds at this point, but the proposed change would not change the difficulty one iota for top end raiders. In order to qualify for the current level of reward on VG, for instance, you would still need to beat the boss in 8 minutes.
No one is advocating for taking anything away from the raid experience at all. While raids can (and should be) difficult content, there is no hard set rule that says that is the only experience they have to or should offer. The goal should be to provide a fun experience for as many players as possible (without detracting from the challenging experience desired by more dedicated players).
I don’t want people to be able to beat the raid bosses on ANY tier because that ruins my experience since I feel much less accomplished when I beat those bosses. Sorry, but I actually like feeling like a kitten when I kill these things. That won’t happen if any kind of easier mode is made, especially like that.
keep in mind that this process is expected to take longer in easy mode than in hard mode.
Changing from a skill gate to a time gate makes the armor less valuable in the eyes of most raiders. Gotta love how you people keep ignoring this fact.
It makes it objectively less valuable for everyone
The raids are not hard. What makes them hard are the time-gates. Eliminate the time gates and have tiered rewards based upon the time it takes to down the bosses.
You clearly haven’t played the raids because the timers are not what make them hard.
Correct. Eliminating the time gates (enrage timers) would not make the fights face roll easy. However, it would go a long way to addressing the build/profession/player diversity issue.
By adding enrage timers to every single encounter, they are effectively saying “Zerker/Vipers or go home – and please don’t bring your dps ranger.” Even with every other mechanic they put in the fights, the CORE mechanic of every fight remains – kill fast.
Removing enrage timers would fix that. Adding in tiered (gold, silver, bronze) reward levels based on kill speed would ensure that teams that do the fight EXACTLY as anet intended are still rewarded for that effort – and for those teams who continually suffer or have issues (and there are many out there – no matter what people want to say on these forums) – they would have the option of going more survival focused (with the understanding they would get a lesser reward).
I would hate to see raids become super easy, but I do believe there is way (possibly the one I and others outline above) to make them a little less punishing and open to groups who just want to have fun and experience (read – actually do not just see on youtube) the fights without the high levels of dedication (again, understanding they would get a lesser reward).
I am very optimistic and pleased to see they are at least considering alternatives (even though I will most likely continue tackling the fights at max level – I do enjoy the challenge). I hope they come sooner rather than later. I know a TON of players who would enjoy this content who simply aren’t interested in the current difficulty level.
“I know a TON of players who would enjoy this content who simply aren’t interested in the current difficulty level.”
The ENTIRE point of raids was to be difficult content. If they’re not interested because of the current difficulty level, they’re just not interested.
The raids are not hard. What makes them hard are the time-gates. Eliminate the time gates and have tiered rewards based upon the time it takes to down the bosses.
You clearly haven’t played the raids because the timers are not what make them hard.
“Objectively it is worth nothing, because it is a virtual item in a videogame. Any value that you apply to it is a subjective value. Any value that the community applies to it (such as on the TP) would be a collective subjective value, but still subjective. As others have pointed out, the armor does not even offer any statistical advantage, the only value it has is how much YOU value it, or in how much value YOU put in how others value it. Only you can control those values.”
All of this is completely wrong, it has a real world objective value, a virtual item in a video game is still a real thing, just virtual.
“But it shouldn’t benefit both parties. People who enjoy raiding should not be able to prey on their fellow players like that. Every customer of a raider should have a path to that goal that is more within his own capabilities. The raider should be playing entirely because he enjoys it, not as a secondary revenue stream.”
And this is all your subjective opinion, which I do not share.
“it would be objectively worth the exact same amount”
This is COMPLETELY wrong and the fact that you don’t understand why means you need to read an economics textbook. They would be objectively worth less amount because a person would be willing to pay considerably less of real world money to get it, wether thats in the form of gems to gold or against the terms of service gold buying, it doesn’t matter. Either way, the actual real worth of the legendary armor WILL go down OBJECTIVELY no matter how many times you insist it will not.
“buying raids from other players is a toxic compromise, do better.”
Buying raids benefits both parties, it is the exact opposite of a toxic compromise. I really feel like a better understanding of economics will help you out here, this isn’t mean to be an insult, I really think it would provide better understanding of why being able to sell raids is a GOOD thing.
“But there should be reasonable paths to them for ALL players of ALL skill levels. "
No, there shouldn’t be a reasonable path for them, but I’ll admit this one isn’t an objective reason, that’s just my opinion.
As expected, the easy-mode raid topic instantly got derailed into a legendary armor debate. I think they’d be much better off introducing a way in open world to get it then spend resources on something casual players don’t even care about. Only the shinies matter anyway.
Which as I pointed out, is completely doable since you can pay raiders to get everything needed for leg armor.
My suggestion thread, that Gaile commented in, was never closed. Some of you have it confused with a different thread by a different poster.
Anet doesn’t want to alienate any players in any part of the game.
The devs are more than capable of creating some types of difficulty settings and still deliver content. It’s not like they would have to rework every piece of the raid to make it happen. Just look at the dps testing area with the boon settings… I suggested a possible boon/debuff tool to help deliver difficulty settings, and it looks like we can something like that now. Also, I don’t think it would be tremendously difficult to have adjustable timers either… Having those two alone wold open the door to more players and provide even greater challenge to seasoned raiders.
Players should be rewarded for participating in any content, and different levels of rewards can be given to match easy, normal and hard difficulty settings. Legendary armor is a longer term goal and should be obtainable by any player participating in raids.
Nobody loses due to difficulty settings, it becomes a net (pun intended) gain for all parties involved.
It becomes a huge loss for me if legendary armor is acquirable in easy mode raids. As I’ve said many times before, I’m completely fine with easy mode raids IF legendary armor is not possible to get from them. If legendary gear was obtainable through them it would severely diminish the value of the reward I was promised. Not to mention I would be forced to sell raid bosses for less gold. (Although I also have my doubts it is actually worth anets time to do this as only a few people actually seem to want them and would play them).
There is the problem… “reward I was promised”… It’s not an “I” thing, it’s a “do raid for legendary” thing. Players doing it in any mode will still have to “work” for it by gearing up and playing. It’s not a case of walking into the raid and being handed your armor.
Players will still use your good service and pay for runs.
Of course it’s worth their time to build up the raid community.
My point is that my reward will be objectively worth less under you plan than it would otherwise be.
My suggestion thread, that Gaile commented in, was never closed. Some of you have it confused with a different thread by a different poster.
Anet doesn’t want to alienate any players in any part of the game.
The devs are more than capable of creating some types of difficulty settings and still deliver content. It’s not like they would have to rework every piece of the raid to make it happen. Just look at the dps testing area with the boon settings… I suggested a possible boon/debuff tool to help deliver difficulty settings, and it looks like we can something like that now. Also, I don’t think it would be tremendously difficult to have adjustable timers either… Having those two alone wold open the door to more players and provide even greater challenge to seasoned raiders.
Players should be rewarded for participating in any content, and different levels of rewards can be given to match easy, normal and hard difficulty settings. Legendary armor is a longer term goal and should be obtainable by any player participating in raids.
Nobody loses due to difficulty settings, it becomes a net (pun intended) gain for all parties involved.
It becomes a huge loss for me if legendary armor is acquirable in easy mode raids. As I’ve said many times before, I’m completely fine with easy mode raids IF legendary armor is not possible to get from them. If legendary gear was obtainable through them it would severely diminish the value of the reward I was promised. Not to mention I would be forced to sell raid bosses for less gold. (Although I also have my doubts it is actually worth anets time to do this as only a few people actually seem to want them and would play them).
So don’t say that its not a loss for anyone, IT IS, because legendary armor becomes less prestigious objectively, there’s no way to argue that it doesn’t.
The point is to have fun.
nothing
PvP or WvW, there is no alternate PvE Version of the fractal backpiece
No deal, try again.
You can get the legendary armor by farming anything in PvE. Literally anything. All you have to do is buy the raids from other people if you don’t want to do the raiding part yourself.
And I thought the other thread closing would be the end of that.
secret twist ending: the current raids are the easy modes
Couldn’t agree more, what anet should do is create a more difficult mode for the raid, and then the one we have now would be the easy mode!
Everyone wins!
Thanks all for the advice, but quick question do guardians multi task at all?: Like support and do decent dps at the same time? Do they buff allot?
Everyone has ways of doing damage and simultaneously supporting, and it’s a core, critical element of the game.
Ok so what classes do more of that then? I doubt all classes are the same.
All of them are relatively equal bar none, as is the entire point of the game.
Then there would no point in classes if that was actually true, your telling me a class cannot build more towards support instead of dps?
Welcome to gw2 PvE, its all about dps. (Unless you are a druid, in which case you may be allowed to heal)
You’re right, if you want play and live by the meta, something that some players, myself included, don’t do. I for one like to play nondps builds in all modes. I even used to play as a tanky ele in all three modes before HoT.
I’m as tanky as you are in full glass come at me.
You can pretty safely swap out the accuracy sigil for strength without losing any dps. This is mostly if you mainly play in a group that is.
Personally would run Force & Air tho, but that’s just me.
Without assassins gear on a guardian you will need the accuracy sigil on it.
If you have enough assassins gear then air is better.
Thanks all for the advice, but quick question do guardians multi task at all?: Like support and do decent dps at the same time? Do they buff allot?
Everyone has ways of doing damage and simultaneously supporting, and it’s a core, critical element of the game.
Ok so what classes do more of that then? I doubt all classes are the same.
All of them are relatively equal bar none, as is the entire point of the game.
Then there would no point in classes if that was actually true, your telling me a class cannot build more towards support instead of dps?
Welcome to gw2 PvE, its all about dps. (Unless you are a druid, in which case you may be allowed to heal)
1. Gorseval
2. Prison Camp
3. Slothasor
4. VG
5. Sabetha
6. Matthias
Literally just did gorseval 8 hours ago and it worked perfectly, so I’m not sure what you’re talking about.
So while it can be useful to be proficient at multiple classes, it’s definitely not necessary.
Chrono, Druid, warrior, tempest, revenant, and DH are all fine/great on every fight. Thief, engineer, and necromancer will vary in effectiveness and some groups will prefer that you not use one of those classes sometimes.
That being said, if you’re just trying to hop into random groups, it’s best to play as many classes as possible because that increases the chances that you can fill the role that someone wants. I only play chrono and despite chrono being present in every raid, not every raid group is looking for a chrono at any given point in time.
However, your best bet is joining a guild or permanent raiding group, finding a role to play, and mastering that role. Do some research on the fights to become familiar with them, and look around for guilds/groups recruiting for new members. Don’t be afraid of letting them know that you’re inexperienced, as most groups don’t mind bringing a newer player up to speed.
ewww revenant no
I’ve beaten gorse with 3 revenants in the raid. Since gorse has by far the tightest dps check of the bosses, clearly revenants are fine at the very least.
Was that before they got bugged? atm they are bugged so that their auto attack (that thing that used to do actual damage) no longer scales of weapon damage.
That was a week or two ago.
And didn’t they fix that already?
They have not, this is anet we’re talking about
Just tested it out, it seems fine.
Having the same stats with a white weapon and with an exotic weapon will yield the same damage on the 1st and 3rd hit of the auto attack, that’s what you need to test.
Went out and tested with a white weapon and an ascended weapon. Swapped around other pieces of gear so that total power was the same with both of them. The ascended weapon did substantially more damage with all parts of the autoattack.
There was actually just a post on reddit saying the opposite, and I’m getting confirmation from everyone in my guild that its still bugged, it still says its bugged on anet’s list of bugs. I’m really gonna need more than your word atm.
Ok, here we go.
First two screenshots (gw051 and gw052) show my two sets of stats used. I have a difference of 8 power, 1.58% critical chance, and .5% critical damage, which means that my damage stats are, for all intents and purposes, equal.
The next set of screenshots shows my damage vs the destroyer. gw053 contains the damage with the base quality sword. Note the relevant damage amounts:
1124 preparation thrust (crit)
1218 brutal blade (crit)
484 brutal blade (noncrit)1426 rift slash 1 (crit)
612 rift slash 1 (noncrit)230 rift slash 2 (noncrit)
The screenshot gw054 contains the damage dealt using the exotic sword. Note the relevant damage amounts:
1740 preparation thrust (crit)
826 preparation thrust (noncrit)1947 brutal blade (crit)
884 brutal blade (noncrit)2356 rift slash 1 (crit)
553 rift slash 2 (crit)
219 rift slash 2 (noncrit)So from this data, we can draw a couple conclusions. The first is that the auto chain is mostly unbugged. You can see drastically higher damage when using the exotic sword. However, there is an exception, and that’s with the 2nd half of the rift slash attack. The exploding rift portion of the attack does not scale with weapon damage at all, as the noncrit range was almost identical in both tests.
So it’s mostly fixed. The exploding rift portion is not a huge amount of the total damage contribution, which means that revenant sword will still do most of the damage it’s supposed to do, but the bug does in fact still persist for that last bit of the attack chain.
Interesting, thanks!
Still looking to get as many people into raids as I can.
You respond to my question with a Question?
Well, when you have an answer, I’ll be glad to listen to it.
Nice to see you only read the first sentence. Perhaps read the rest.
The rest of your post did nothing to address the actual question either. So, not to be rude, but when you can answer the question, I’ll listen.
So, it’s that way.
I ask a question, you answer it. It’s the way every discussion goes.
The only time this becomes a problem, is if you can’t actually answer the question.
Oh, wait, I can post numbers. At one point, there was the by now well-known post about WoW raids (back before LFR) being utilized by ~5% of the population. At least that’s the number I see raid haters post a lot. WOW’s high-water mark was 12M. 12M x .05 = 600,000 players. Subs are $15 per. $9M a month. Subtract half of that for reasons, like not all players paid the full sub (I’m being generous). $4.5M ultra-conservative estimate. That definitely helped sustain the game (remember, “helped” means “contributed to,” not, “was the mainstay of.”)
So, you got any numbers whatsoever to back up your assertion?
Numbers? Oh ok, I have over 6 million copies of this game sold, before it had raids in it, and the fact that WoW Lost 4 Million Subscribers during the time when GW2 launched.
That means, people, by the millions would gladly leave a game with Raids, to play a game without them.
Do you have anything even remotely close to that?
Good god correlation=/= causation, what even is this ridiculousness of an attempt to try to even resemble an actual point?
As already pointed out, RisingDusk has stated that raids have helped player retention, what else do you kittening need?
Raids are contributing to player retention.
Can you prove this?
Which still retains more players than Silverwaste, so what are you actually trying to prove ?
Can you Prove this?
If you can prove these claims, with solid facts, that raid contribute to player retention as opposed to burnout or ‘kittening people off’ I’ll concede this entire discussion.
Sure how about here in this lovely video, where they are at a technical conference ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLslqhBn3PUThis was before Raids were in the game, so i’m not sure how it is relevant.
As for “retains more players than silverwastes” claim, it’s also not there. The only info we get is a comparison between competitive and noncompetitive players on 1 to 1 basis. There’s no info about relative numbers of one group to the other and no comparison of groups as a whole.As to the person asking can i prove or show numbers, sure straight from Crystal herself….
https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/48zlyd/im_mike_obrien_here_with_gw2_dev_team_ama/d0nwad9Can you guys take your heads out of the sand now ?
I see no numbers about how many players raids retain in this game whatsoever. I see no number comparisons between pvp and other modes either.
You are taking two different topics into account so let me simplify this for you.
The video was in response to a player saying PvP doesnt retain players more than PvE. Video proof otherwise plus charts and graphs withing showcasing this.
You asked for anytime anet has said anything with numbers, in regards to a previous conversation about people working on raids, i’ve provided the numbers in regards to that.
To the people who claim their internet is so bad they can’t watch a youtube video…Get real, you have enough time to be here posting and to play the game you have enough internet to watch a video. So either watch it, or stop complaining for sources. Thanks.
Why are you even arguing this point with them? They are asking you for numbers while giving speculation of their own that goes against what anet has said.
They are asking you for specific numbers because apparently broad statements from anet aren’t good enough for them. They are dragging this argument out because they have no facts or basis to stand on. You’re only giving them legitimacy by arguing points that they make in bad faith.
you quoted me replying to a player about PvP retaining players more than PvE. I gave you the video, watch it perhaps you’ll learn something.
Did you not understand me when I said I don’t have the bandwidth to stream a 30 min video?
The video is there for others, not for you.
So while it can be useful to be proficient at multiple classes, it’s definitely not necessary.
Chrono, Druid, warrior, tempest, revenant, and DH are all fine/great on every fight. Thief, engineer, and necromancer will vary in effectiveness and some groups will prefer that you not use one of those classes sometimes.
That being said, if you’re just trying to hop into random groups, it’s best to play as many classes as possible because that increases the chances that you can fill the role that someone wants. I only play chrono and despite chrono being present in every raid, not every raid group is looking for a chrono at any given point in time.
However, your best bet is joining a guild or permanent raiding group, finding a role to play, and mastering that role. Do some research on the fights to become familiar with them, and look around for guilds/groups recruiting for new members. Don’t be afraid of letting them know that you’re inexperienced, as most groups don’t mind bringing a newer player up to speed.
ewww revenant no
I’ve beaten gorse with 3 revenants in the raid. Since gorse has by far the tightest dps check of the bosses, clearly revenants are fine at the very least.
Was that before they got bugged? atm they are bugged so that their auto attack (that thing that used to do actual damage) no longer scales of weapon damage.
That was a week or two ago.
And didn’t they fix that already?
They have not, this is anet we’re talking about
Just tested it out, it seems fine.
Having the same stats with a white weapon and with an exotic weapon will yield the same damage on the 1st and 3rd hit of the auto attack, that’s what you need to test.
Went out and tested with a white weapon and an ascended weapon. Swapped around other pieces of gear so that total power was the same with both of them. The ascended weapon did substantially more damage with all parts of the autoattack.
There was actually just a post on reddit saying the opposite, and I’m getting confirmation from everyone in my guild that its still bugged, it still says its bugged on anet’s list of bugs. I’m really gonna need more than your word atm.
- On Alienating a demographic: how about the people who like hard instanced content? Aren’t they a demographic?
Problem is, GW2 was never about hard instanced content. There are plenty of other games offering that and there was no reason to cater that demographic. (Of course, falling sales might have been the reason).
“I don’t find pvp fun and anet said this game would be fun so clearly it doesn’t belong in this game.”
^ your argument against raids
PvP was always there, raids have only been added recently. Your argument is invalid.
By that logic anet should never add anything new to the game. Do you guys even read your own posts?
" there was no reason to cater that demographic" Other than you know, that catering to people is the entire point of selling a game.
Also let’s be honest, anet has went back on their word so many times can you really dig this stuff up from years ago and still expect them to hold to it? They also anounced a new set of legendary weapons over 2 years ago.
How many times does it need to be pointed out that there are only 5 people on the raid team…
How many times does it need to be pointed out that it’s not what devs said?
(they said that 5-6 devs were working exclusively on second wing. In addition to more people that were working on it non-exclusively. Hint: the work almost certainly started when the first wing was still being done, and ended after the work on third wing has started)
RisingDusk has already confirmed that all of your speculations here are completely false, please use actual facts about the situation and not your useless speculation.
Anet also said:
But what if your business model isn’t one based on a subscription, and your content-design motivations aren’t driven by creating mechanics to keep people playing as long as possible? When looking at content design for Guild Wars 2, we’ve tried to ask the question: What if the development of the game was based on…wait for it…fun?
If we chose fun as our main metric for tracking success, can we flip the core paradigm and make design decisions based on what we’d like to play as game players? Can we focus our time on making meaningful and impactful content, rather than filler content to draw out the experience? Can we make something so much fun you might want to play it multiple times because it’s fun, rather than making you do it because the game says you have to?So do raid fall into this “Fun Category” well, it’s obvious that for some players, the answer is a resounding NO
So I Am going to repeat myself:
Raids did nothing for GW2 other than give a lot of people a reason to continue to play. That’s good for the longevity of the game.
Not at all, Especially when you factor in that any long standing player (Anyone that has been playing GW2 for a year or more) left a game with raids, to play a game without them. Thus is raids did not help the other game retain people, they will not Help GW2 retain people. Sorry, but that’s just the reality of games and every "raider " on this topic is proof of that fact. So the only thing Raid have added to the game is putting in a Skill Gate to Content, like Legendary Armor.
Now I left the other topic, because I don’t care if they put in an Easy Mode, in fact I made it clear that I think they needed to put in a Hard Gear check like Fractals have, just to kick it up a notch. No one liked that idea. How ironic, they are in favor of content needing Ascended, but are not in favor of content needing ascended. If that makes any sense to anyone. So I don’t care about the raid, I don’t care about the legendary armor either. Number of Legendary’s I have is 0, and I care zero about that fact.
But I do care about this game, because I enjoy playing it. So I want to see it thrive. So I can get back to my SAB solo runs, and doing my daily fractal runs, and hope that they add a few new maps along the way, or make it more dynamic and fun as opposed to the slog of HP that it is now in the higher tiers. But I degrees.
Getting back to Are Raids a Good Idea, One of things I learned is, alienating an entire demographic of players is not a smart move, and that is irrespective of the game in question. Now you may say “But they can play something else”, and while that my be true, it does not change the fact they can’t play the new shiny.
Few things really are as bad for a game, as a content update, that players either simply don’t enjoy, or that while they may have done all there is to do in the older content, so they have been looking forward to this update, they discover that they don’t have the skills/time/connections to do it.
Even the LS that is in HoT, which often the LS caters to the casual group previously, in HoT, it requires a sizable grind to experience.
Arguably, we could say that Raids, in and of their own, could be benign, but coupled with a update like HoT which seems directed at the hard-core players, with their heavy mob density, and near-to jumping puzzle style zone layouts, Raids could be the final nail that sets the pace for the game away from the Casual, and shall we say, the “Sign on the Wall” that says “get out”
So.
What will happen, I don’t know. Maybe Anet can turn things around, maybe they have a content update that will make the casual demographic feel more included, I don’t know.
But as it stands right now, it really looks like Anet is kicking them to the curb, and that final Straw, being Locking Legendary Armor behind the Raid, could set the stage for players realizing and accepting that this “New Direction” does not include them.
What happens when that happens?
Well, lets go back to the fact that a bunch of people left a game with raids, to play a game without them…..
If your only objection is fuss about AR, then you missed the whole point of post.
“I don’t find pvp fun and anet said this game would be fun so clearly it doesn’t belong in this game.”
^ your argument against raids
So while it can be useful to be proficient at multiple classes, it’s definitely not necessary.
Chrono, Druid, warrior, tempest, revenant, and DH are all fine/great on every fight. Thief, engineer, and necromancer will vary in effectiveness and some groups will prefer that you not use one of those classes sometimes.
That being said, if you’re just trying to hop into random groups, it’s best to play as many classes as possible because that increases the chances that you can fill the role that someone wants. I only play chrono and despite chrono being present in every raid, not every raid group is looking for a chrono at any given point in time.
However, your best bet is joining a guild or permanent raiding group, finding a role to play, and mastering that role. Do some research on the fights to become familiar with them, and look around for guilds/groups recruiting for new members. Don’t be afraid of letting them know that you’re inexperienced, as most groups don’t mind bringing a newer player up to speed.
ewww revenant no
I’ve beaten gorse with 3 revenants in the raid. Since gorse has by far the tightest dps check of the bosses, clearly revenants are fine at the very least.
Was that before they got bugged? atm they are bugged so that their auto attack (that thing that used to do actual damage) no longer scales of weapon damage.
That was a week or two ago.
And didn’t they fix that already?
They have not, this is anet we’re talking about
Just tested it out, it seems fine.
Having the same stats with a white weapon and with an exotic weapon will yield the same damage on the 1st and 3rd hit of the auto attack, that’s what you need to test.
Yes I can agree that the more casual players got the short end of the stick when it came to the quality of content, but again its not the raids that made that new content bad quality.
How do you know that? Maybe raids took up the lions’ share of the quality work, leaving very little quality left over for other projects.
How many times does it need to be pointed out that there are only 5 people on the raid team…
So while it can be useful to be proficient at multiple classes, it’s definitely not necessary.
Chrono, Druid, warrior, tempest, revenant, and DH are all fine/great on every fight. Thief, engineer, and necromancer will vary in effectiveness and some groups will prefer that you not use one of those classes sometimes.
That being said, if you’re just trying to hop into random groups, it’s best to play as many classes as possible because that increases the chances that you can fill the role that someone wants. I only play chrono and despite chrono being present in every raid, not every raid group is looking for a chrono at any given point in time.
However, your best bet is joining a guild or permanent raiding group, finding a role to play, and mastering that role. Do some research on the fights to become familiar with them, and look around for guilds/groups recruiting for new members. Don’t be afraid of letting them know that you’re inexperienced, as most groups don’t mind bringing a newer player up to speed.
ewww revenant no
I’ve beaten gorse with 3 revenants in the raid. Since gorse has by far the tightest dps check of the bosses, clearly revenants are fine at the very least.
Was that before they got bugged? atm they are bugged so that their auto attack (that thing that used to do actual damage) no longer scales of weapon damage.
That was a week or two ago.
And didn’t they fix that already?
They have not, this is anet we’re talking about
And its not about believing or not. As I said, its all about pure facts. We getting raid content and we not getting other content. We getting information about Anet happy with locking exclusive types of items behind raids and NO word about adding anything else for anyone else.
It’s literally “Eat raid or gtfo. What, you don’t like raids or like something else? Too bad, because you not getting anything else. Oh, and we plan to add more raid content, hope you like raids.”
Your post is not facts, it’s hyperbole and impatience. You want facts? OK, here they are.
In the last 7 months:
Raids
- 6 bosses; some trash
- Some rewards, but the big one isn’t here yet
Other PvE
- 4 maps (OK, maybe 3.5 if running around DS is not your thing)
- Each contains a meta cycle, so 4 of those
- Each map contains several boss encounters, VB alone has 5
- Exploration objectives and Easter eggs
- Other events
- Multiple armor and weapon sets
- Legendary journeys for Precursors V. 1.0
- Two festivals
- Shatterer revamp
- Gliding in core Tyria
- Mastery system, which is mostly open PvE stuff
WvW
- 1 new map, triplicated (which was at least a partial disaster)
Going forward:
Raids
- 1 new wing, so 3 more bosses
- Maybe L. Armor will appear, maybe not
Other PvE
- April update (whatever it is)
- LS S3 (whenever it hits)
- July update, whatever it is
- HoT revamp, whatever it is, whenever it hits
People who prefer “other” PvE had to wait about 9 months for HoT. People who prefer harder instanced content have waited a lot longer for not as much.
Those are the facts. Your perspective amounts to, “We haven’t had any PvE content since HoT and raids got 2/3’s of what HoT was supposed to deliver.” You want to be angry that ANet is no longer churning out updates every few weeks? Blame them. You want to blame other players? Blame the ones who burned LS in effigy every time it was offered. For all I know, you were one of them.
1. 4 maps. Aside from Drytop, how many plattformer maps had been released until HoT? If you are a vanilla GW2 fan, HoT is as much problem as solution to the content drought.
2. A meta circle. So what? Kessex Hills contains a meta circle too, except that there is no special reward for doing it. Every PvE map has it, it just restarts more often most of the time.
3. Ok? Boss encounters. What would a PvE map be without bosses? How does that upgrade HoT compared to other maps and raids in that regard?
4. Where has the time gone by when JP were optional?
5. What other events?
6. Festivals, I am pretty sure that Anet had to work overtime to bring the same stale festival over and over again.
7+8. Ok, this is undispitably helpful.
9. Mastery system was so grerat that Anet had to backpeddle as quick as possible with it.For me, it looks like Anet puts in the absolute minimum for casuals right now and the absolute maximum for raiders. Not that they were overly creative with their festival stuff anyway and ls2 was a brutal desaster, but it was not on that scale yet. If that tactic proves successfull for them and they continue to exclusively churn out stuff like raids, my favorite game that I considered a refugee from raidcentric MMOs is no more.
Yes I can agree that the more casual players got the short end of the stick when it came to the quality of content, but again its not the raids that made that new content bad quality.
People who prefer harder instanced content have waited a lot longer for not as much.
Excuse me, but to say you wait for raids would be a misnomer, as you were never promised them, in fact the decision to put them in was a very recent one, so you could not in any way have be waiting for them. You would have slacked your thirst for harder instance content on fractals and higher tier dungeons, Arah, HotW, Atherpath, TA, not to mention the increased difficulty of Shatter, Teq, and the added Triple Trouble World Boss, Etc. So, you have not been waiting at all for hard content.
None of those things are even remotely difficult though…
So while it can be useful to be proficient at multiple classes, it’s definitely not necessary.
Chrono, Druid, warrior, tempest, revenant, and DH are all fine/great on every fight. Thief, engineer, and necromancer will vary in effectiveness and some groups will prefer that you not use one of those classes sometimes.
That being said, if you’re just trying to hop into random groups, it’s best to play as many classes as possible because that increases the chances that you can fill the role that someone wants. I only play chrono and despite chrono being present in every raid, not every raid group is looking for a chrono at any given point in time.
However, your best bet is joining a guild or permanent raiding group, finding a role to play, and mastering that role. Do some research on the fights to become familiar with them, and look around for guilds/groups recruiting for new members. Don’t be afraid of letting them know that you’re inexperienced, as most groups don’t mind bringing a newer player up to speed.
ewww revenant no
I’ve beaten gorse with 3 revenants in the raid. Since gorse has by far the tightest dps check of the bosses, clearly revenants are fine at the very least.
Was that before they got bugged? atm they are bugged so that their auto attack (that thing that used to do actual damage) no longer scales of weapon damage.
“To be honest I could not care less about your enjoyment” Well thanks.
Well, it’s not like you care about his enjoyment either.
Your hyperbole about the current situation is comical, but wrong. Raids have nothing to do with the content drought.
You’re saying that if the same team was doing anything else except raids they would not have been as succesful?
Because it seems now that all the best/most effective developers were put on raid team (and possibly next expac team) and everything else is being done with those that just weren’t that good enough.
“Well, it’s not like you care about his enjoyment either.”
Sorry unlike you guys I do actually care that the community overall in this game is happy, which is one of the reasons why I am also really disappointed in the latest content drought outside of raids, even though I am mainly here for raids.
Good thing you don’t have to believe it. However, you inability to believe doesn’t change the facts. We know from the boss himself the full time raid team is no more than 5 members. With some assistance from others sure, no one is denying that. However if you want to place blame on a handful of people then you are misguided when there’s another 200 people at that company and 70 of which are already started on the 2nd expansion. The very source of the problem called putting the cart before the horse.
So please get off your crusading high horse. If you want to state your displeasure for the company / its structure fine, but if you cannot be objective about raids being a good or bad idea why even bother posting ?
And its not about believing or not. As I said, its all about pure facts. We getting raid content and we not getting other content. We getting information about Anet happy with locking exclusive types of items behind raids and NO word about adding anything else for anyone else.
It’s literally “Eat raid or gtfo. What, you don’t like raids or like something else? Too bad, because you not getting anything else. Oh, and we plan to add more raid content, hope you like raids.”
I’m sorry what? The new legendary weapons (at least the ones that you did get) are exclusive to HoT open world. The legendary backpiece is exclusive to fractals. The pvp backpiece is exclusive to pvp. Its 100% disingenuous to say that raids are the only thing with an exclusive reward.
Now if you want to talk about ascended trinkets that you can only get from raids like vipers. That’s 100% a terrible decision by anet and they NEED to put a way to obtain that somewhere else.
Also again, the lack is probably due to incompetence from the other teams as far as I know, please don’t take it out on the raids and raid team. It has been confirmed by multiple people now that the vast, vast, vast majority of people at anet right now have nothing to do with raids.
I’m very saddened by how toxic the gw2 community has come, or maybe its just that the salt seems to move only to the forums. Ironically the toxicity is coming from the people who complain about “elitists” more than its from elitists. I really wish people could just get along but a lot of people here seem to have nothing better to do but whine and be entitle to rewards that they don’t want to actually earn. You are devaluing the experience not just for raiders, but for those that buy them as well.
I find this funny coming from you.
Hey I never said I couldn’t be toxic too, I’m not clean here. I think I’ve made that obvious.