Guild Wars 2

Obtena.7952:

All that I can say at this point is that it’s players that take the risk for using exploits. If you think weak semantic arguments can ‘save you’ from Anet taking action against you for using an exploitable situation, you will learn the hard way if that’s necessary. It’s not about any admissions or pointing fingers; if you use exploits, you break the TOS and you can be held accountable and dealt with as Anet sees fit.

You keep missing the point. I made this topic, and its about them admitting mistakes, not your holier than thou arguments about what’s right or wrong. This topic is about their consistency in dealing with the same issues, which isnt very consistent at all.

And if you want to see a deflection here is one: you know those dailies pvp rooms? Ever been in one of those? Congratulations, you’ve violated the ToS by match fixing.

Ithilwen.1529:

Please stop. Chronomancer just took a big hit. ANET broke it’s own rules especially to do an emergency hotfix to heavily nerf chrono bunker..

At this point you really just need to learn to play. ANET doesn’t need to nerf me (again) because of your lack of skill.

So what? they need a bigger hit. Well of precog is a ridiculous ability by design and it shouldn’t exist.

TBH venom share builds are a crux to the thief. It essentially just front loads all the burst and they are left with very little disengage utilities. A few well placed cleanses and they’ll run out of steam. A good condi thief will wear you down with conditions gradually.

Well, your maths is wrong but i kinda agree. They should dishonor ppl who don’t make enough contribution to the match, it’s a better way to fish out afkers or feeders. Dota2 will penalize you for consistently playing terribly. While it’s a bit annoying if you are switching from your good character to your bad, no one should be… That bad

Crinn.7864:

The fear duration on F4 isn’t long enough to justify terror.

Cmon son. Have hope. HOPE

Obtena.7952:

Crinn.7864:

No you can make a underpowered noncompetitive reaper build with dagger.

And condi dagger would have a place in condi builds that would be otherwise starved for lifeforce, since scepter is the worst mainhand for LF generation. It would also give condi necro a weapon that has some sustain.

Let’s not get in the trap where improvement equals new. Yes, you can get those things with condi-buffed dagger. I’m not asking about improvement to current builds; that was not the reason people gave to condi buff dagger.

Again, all of those things are addressed by weapon swapping. I’ve already covered these points. The concept of the weapon and the ability to swap weapons as meaningful choices can’t be done away with because you don’t want to make meaningful choices or ignore weapon concepts.

Lets not get into the trap of flying off on tangents nobody agrees with.

Obtena.7952:

Dagger solving problems with current builds doesn’t show those builds are new; it simply demonstrates improvement to current builds. This is not the premise that people argued for buffing dagger with conditions. It’s easily argued that those deficiencies provide meaningful points of choice for players when considering what they want to do. Again, you’re misinterpretation of what is meant by new builds vs. improved ones. I’m not here to argue that adding conditions to dagger makes it better; that goes without saying.

lol: your interpretation does not equal everyone else misinterpreting.

Actually, it means you’re just skewing the interpretation.

Not really sure what your reply has to do with my post. I’m simply saying Mesmers have a lot of well thought out GM traits that provide depth and playstyles.

Evan Lesh.3295:

I’ll just leave this here:
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/PvP_Matchmaking_Algorithm

Ohoni.6057:

The argument is that no one repeats the story-mode dungeons because the rewards are way too low. As they probably would be for easy mode raids.

If they are too low for easy mode raids then they should be raised to be higher. They should never be too low to be worth running the content.

Easy fix.

Even if the rewards are balanced, like fractals, then no one would repeat the easy mode once they’re able to do the normal one. Again, wasted content.

Again, that assumes that all players would “graduate” to hard mode. I don’t believe this will ever be the case. I believe that there are plenty of players who fall into the category of “would enjoy easy mode raids, would NEVER enjoy hard mode raids. EVER. Like in a million years ever. Like they would play the easy mode raids on a weekly basis for years, and still not feel like doing the hard mode versions regularly. That kind of forever.”

I guarantee you, if they get it right, people would be playing easy mode raids at least as long as they continue to play the hard mode versions.

And if the rewards were over-tuned towards easy-mode raids, then no one do the normal mode. Like COF p3.

Again, not an issue. Hard mode has its own rewards. People who can complete hard mode and enjoy that sort of thing would be able to continue doing so. Basically, if you enjoy hard mode raiding, want raid style rewards, then hard mode raiding is objectively the most efficient path for you. If you don’t enjoy hard mode raiding, but still want the raid experience and rewards, then easy mode raiding is for you, hard mode being too hard, and everything else offering a different experience and rewards. If you don’t care about any of that stuff, then neither mode is for you, and that’s fine too, but at least this way all three groups have a service, currently the middle group is left out.

Lets not forget you actually wanted an easy mode that gets the same rewards as hard mode before. Why the change in tune now?

And no, there is no ‘middle group’ you speak of, its really just people who don’t want to make a proper effort , and game design should never pander to those people. Once you start classifying these people in their own groups, there’ll be another group of people who want that easy mode to get a little easier, etc etc etc. Let the developers keep their own vision of how the game should be played.

Don’t guarantee anything you can’t substantiate please.

Terrible suggestion. No one would bother dodging for Gors.

There’s really no class because the pre-80 pve in this game is garbage and you can get through it auto attacking

They are ashamed that they have revive orbs on sale. That’s why it got removed.

Poorly aimed shot.

Spirit watch is rated? I played 18 games last night and never saw it once.

New coliseum is really good, but super thief favored though.

This is what happens when your game has no basic tutorials. People don’t understand when they are making mistakes.

It is considered an ‘exploit’. Classy Arenanet, just classy. No it is not an exploit, its something YOU OVERLOOKED.

Obtena.7952:

Nothing obtuse here. You guys want to pat yourselves on the back for a poorly thought out idea to buff dagger with damage conditions while ignoring game mechanics and intention. It’s not all that hard to even think of an idea that doesn’t ignore those things to buff dagger, but for some reason they elude you because of this conditions fixation.

I mean, someone asked what happened to simply buffing dagger damage … he was completely ignored because that idea doesn’t push the condition buff agenda.

OK so what about that idea? It maintains the concept of the dagger, it maintains meaningful choices during swapping, it addresses ‘competitive’ to a degree.

Oh, applying conditions = ignoring game mechanics now? That’s a new one to laugh to!

SchmendrickTheMagician.8247:

lloydst.6985:

There is this option on your character select screen that says delete character after that you type in your toons name and click delete now you can create a new toon. Use leveling scrolls and tomes to level up( ofc before deleting your toon salvage what gear you can)

Yeah, no.

Uh, you know, celestial is only removed in PvP. If you were going to class change, for the sake of PvP, you just need to make a new character, of a different class. You don’t need to level up, you don’t need to re-gear.

See how that works?

Obtena.7952:

You are saying no one in this thread has agreed with me? I think you should go back and have a look at the thread. I’m simply asking for people justify their argument, for good reason.

Its been justified, ad nauseum. You should go back and have a look at the thread.

Honestly if you can cast the visual vomit that is guild wars 2 you can cast anything.

Brigg.3961:

Typically those who didn’t need SR were those who played braindead Condi based builds (to include hybrids). This was supposed to be the patch that buffed power reaper, not nerf them into oblivion.

Tell me how power reaper is not brain dead again? VP nerf affects how much RS1 you can throw out, it doesn’t affect any of the RS skills in the long run. If pressing 1 all day isnt brain dead, i dont know what is, because you sure as hell can’t do that on a condi build.

iKeostuKen.2738:

Would rather they make it how it used to be where it was like 8v8 battles, maybe more.

Just make it anti zerg friendly.

Thats…kinda contradictory no? 8v8 was a mess, theres like 2-3 fights on every point, can’t see anything meaningful.

Obtena.7952:

Nothing obtuse here. You guys want to pat yourselves on the back for a poorly thought out idea to buff dagger with damage conditions while ignoring game mechanics and intention. It’s not all that hard to even think of an idea that doesn’t ignore those things to buff dagger, but for some reason they elude you because of this conditions fixation.

I mean, someone asked what happened to simply buffing dagger damage … he was completely ignored because that idea doesn’t push the condition buff agenda.

OK so what about that idea? It maintains the concept of the dagger, it maintains meaningful choices during swapping, it addresses ‘competitive’ to a degree.

Ramoth.9064:

Obtena.7952:

Why does this have to be regulated to competitive play? So you can claim my concerns and points aren’t relevant? GG. I think you are dillusional if you think adding condtion to dagger AA elevates it to ‘competitive play’, whatever your vague definition of that may be.

The fact is that while I’m a primary dissenter, I haven’t been the only one; try to keep it honest OK? The other people that have commented and challenged this idea have also echoed my own feelings on this; ignoring the fundamental concept of the weapon just to buff it out of what is simple desperation. Not a compelling reason.

Balance is based around the nature of competition, if there were no competition involved there would be no need to balance.

This isn’t a question of balance. If it was, no one would be so clueless as to suggest a few conditions applied by dagger AA would address it.

They added a ‘few conditions and situational effects’ to dagger 2 and 3, so your argument here is dead in the water. If a ‘few conditions’ have so little purpose why did arenanet do it at all?

Thief deadly arts got a ‘few’ conditions added to two traits that redefined several weapons. Oh no, how pointless.

lol deserved.

Obtena.7952:

You are saying no one in this thread has agreed with me? I think you should go back and have a look at the thread. I’m simply asking for people justify their arguments so we have a good basis for a discussion. Right now we have people making up reasons that don’t make much sense. If there are builds that are opened up because of condi dagger, let’s see them. If you want to interpret ‘opened up’ as improved, then there isn’t much to discuss, because any condi buff to dagger is an improvement. Therefore, you can justify any buff to it because of that reason … clearly not a sound reason to buff anything in this game.

Oh, sound reasons? And you know this because? Are you qualified? Qualifications please?

Preface: I main necromancer and thief.

I think the current problem in GW2 at the moment is the power creep that has injected into the game ever since the specializations patch (more stats, more traits) and HoT (elite specializations). Conditions that might not have been as powerful before, like chill, have become much more powerful because of its ease of application and uptime. The same goes for powerful boons such as protection, stability, and resistance. Arenanet seems to have a super-charging approach to balance; solving one OP solution by providing another OP solution. I’m looking at you, boon corruption.

The issue is, this method of problem solving is that it soon becomes some what of a baseline requirement, for any mode of play. If a certain elementalist can achieve 100% uptime on protection, we simply cannot do without it. I think there are two sides to this argument. If meta revolves around people doing the same exact things because such and such aspect has become a baseline requirement, we are watching players duke it out in pvp relying on almost mechanical skill alone. But on the other hand, I think this really reduces build options and locks out entire classes.

My suggestion is, lets take a step back. Lets take a big step back. Lets bring it back to the days when activating protection just before an eviscerate was a clutch move. What I’m suggesting is a complete rework of conditions, and boons. Maybe even combos.

The basics:
Conditions and boons from a single player cannot stack in intensity, i.e. you can only inflict one stack burning by yourself. Your teammate will be able to inflict a second stack. Conditions will require a rework, such that they have more counterplay associated with them.

For instance:
Bleeding: Moderate damage scaling, also reduces endurance regeneration, low base duration.
Poison: Low damage scaling, reduces healing, high base duration.
Burning: High damage scaling, high base duration, removed upon dodge rolling.

So just comparing these 3 reworked conditions, theres a specific element of counterplay associated with them. Class skills will need to be reworked so that you can’t freely apply conditions at will. .’. there will be a more important timing associated with when you apply conditions.

e.g. do you burn an opponent when he has no endurance left, or do you do it so they might waste a dodge to get rid of the burn? The opponent getting burned might then think, do I dodge now to get rid of the burn, or do I dodge later to both evade a powerful attack and remove the burn.

Some other reworks include:
Weakness: Enemy has a % reduced chance to crit. Scales with toughness.
Vulnerability: Intensity % scales with precision, also prevents going into stealth. ‘Revealed’ is removed.

Reworked boons for example:
Vigor: Increased endurance regeneration, removes bleeding on application. Scales with vitality.
Protection: Intensity % scales with toughness, removes vulnerability on application.
*

There’d be a cap for some of these things so that a team of 5 in PvP cannot walk around with 100% reduced damage from protection etc etc.

If this sounds a bit like Guild Wars 1 (no stacked intensity) well, yes, it does. Condition removal will become more specific. Bandage for instance might only remove bleeding. Conditions and boon mechanics will become more specific in general.

So this will require a rework of almost every skill in the game. Certainly conditions and boons cannot be applied on every auto attack. But there is one aspect of the game this rework can be directed to: combos.

If all classes had a higher access to different combo fields and finishers, and this is where most boons and condition are applied from. Combat will involve a lot more counterplay and mind games. Players will see combo fields being laid down as a byproduct of an attack, and will need to think whether the enemy will leap through the field to inflict vulnerability, or blast the field to inflict cripple.

/Discuss?

Tiresias.6473:

You are the second idi… person to say this. I’ve already replied to your kind once and I can’t be bothered to come up with something significantly different to say, so I’ll say the exact same thing again:

My hatred of these kinds of arguments knows no bounds. Let me boil this mentality down to its bare essence:

“Just deal with the fact that your build was severely crippled without warning.”

Unacceptable. Many people — not just me — are using a Reaper Shroud build because they enjoy it and have invested a significant amount of time into acquiring gear and learning how to play the spec.

Bear in mind that this is a spec that isn’t considered to be the most powerful way to play a Necromancer. The damage output is decidedly worse than a condition build and it offers almost nothing in the way of group utility. On top of all of that, Necromancer as a class is performing worse than almost every other class in the game in terms of damage and utility.

And it’s not like this is a recent problem! The issues with Necromancers are well-known and have been discussed to death. If they were concerned about these two very necessary traits not affecting Sand Shroud they could have literally just buffed them by adding in the new effects (Swiftness on Speed of Shadows and Vitality on Vital Persistence) without changing anything else and it STILL wouldn’t have fixed the core issues that the Necromancer class faces.

I can’t speak for anyone else, but I enjoyed the Reaper Shroud build because of the visual effects and mobility. In reality it’s mostly an auto-attack spec that doesn’t even have access to utility skills most of the time.

So yes, I can “adapt”, but there is no good reason that I should have to. This was a scorched earth approach to addressing a problem that didn’t actually exist. The “solution” was not only lazy, it feels terrible.

And to top it off, there was no warning! So now I’m stuck with gear for a build that doesn’t work anymore, and my choices are to either go with a Greatsword power build that is even LESS effective than the already underperforming build that I was using yesterday or scramble to put together a set of condition gear.

I can’t even begin to describe how terrible that feels.

Small update for modern times:

No, a 25% reduction in Lifeforce decay will not account for the loss of the 50% reduction in decay and 7s cooldown. There is still no reason to take the Soul Reaping traitline now and the Reaper Shroud builds are still suffering under heavy-handed nerfs.

Learning how to play the spec? pressing F1 then wailing on 1 is hard? For some reason people who play power reapers exclusively seem to be on some high horse thinking condi is easier to play. I have both sets of gear btw. And since you are talking about collecting gear Ill have to assume you’re talking PVE. Condi rotations are definitely harder to play to reach optimal DPS. and this is PVE we’re talking about, where things die left right and center, you have no NEED for actual life force management. YOu can be wailing on 3 things with RS1, getting 6% back in 2.37 seconds.

Most of you people crying about VP haven’t even done the maths or actually considered in a realistic scenario. You have people like DeceiverX saying shroud runs out in 10 seconds on a full bar, with no damage taken. No. No it doesn’t. If you get focused in pvp, VP won’t save you. If you’re kittening about the duration loss from VP then you’re camping shroud. its as simple as that.

You won’t get banned if you spend a lot of gems, that’s why a lot of hackers get to roam freely.

Scourge is so much better. 5 actually useful skills at all times instead of only when in shroud

Obtena.7952:

Ramoth.9064:

Obtena.7952:

Nothing obtuse here. You guys want to pat yourselves on the back for a poorly thought out idea to buff dagger with damage conditions while ignoring game mechanics and intention. It’s not all that hard to even think of an idea that doesn’t ignore those things to buff dagger, but for some reason they elude you because of this conditions fixation.

I mean, someone asked what happened to simply buffing dagger damage … he was completely ignored because that idea doesn’t push the condition buff agenda.

OK so what about that idea? It maintains the concept of the dagger, it maintains meaningful choices during swapping, it addresses ‘competitive’ to a degree.

Oh, applying conditions = ignoring game mechanics now? That’s a new one to laugh to!

Maybe you think that … I never said such a thing. Feel free to laugh at yourself if that’s what you want to think.

I will say that applying conditions that isn’t aligned with the concept of a power weapon is ignoring it’s concept and intention.

You have no idea what intentions a weapon has despite how much you think you know about the game. GS in raids is now used in condition builds, despite it being marketed as a ‘power’ weapon.

Everytime I finish a reward track, the surplus points go into SAB. Even if I have an unfinished track with more points in it. WHY? Its kittening obnoxious. Not everyone wants to play that stupid minigame.

Obtena.7952:

The justification makes no sense … an improvement isn’t a justification to buff anything. That means every possible buff you can propose, no matter how ridiculous, makes sense and should be done? If that’s how you think, then you question my qualification? Simply being reasonable is apparently enough to qualify me to dispute this suggestion.

You are the most unreasonable person in this forum, that’s not even necessary for dispute. All of your arguments divulge into a shifting of goalposts, deliberate misinterpretations and constant deflections.

Your pre-holiday discussion was ‘how would a condition make dagger do things it can’t do now’. It got answered, now you’re asking ‘how is that a reasonable justification?’

LOL

I completed the renown heart once and it just repeated, the next step didn’t happen, gate wouldn’t open.

Anyone get that?

Far points on spirit watch are way too easy to defend from people respawning.

It’s on high ground, there are plenty of obstructions, and its easily assaulted from mid. Then there is the problem that mid has so much ground advantage from people heading their directly from respawn. The whole map is just so prone to snowballs its terrible for competitive play.

I don’t know why Arenanet constantly feels the need to reinvent the wheel. They think they are savants of creativity or something, but they really aren’t. 6 seasons later, its still a mess. We’ve had 4 seasons of that pip rank kitten, something which my 10 year old nephew succinctly pointed out as being a terrible system.

10 years old. He suggested ’can’t you just purposely drop your rating so you can win several times in a row against bad players’. I’m terrified to know what kind of quality control goes on at Arenanet.

Obtena.7952:

You assume dagger has no purpose and shouldn’t be able to be kited? That’s a poor assumption considering it’s the way dagger worked for the last 5 years and people have presented good ideas of what the purpose of dagger is. Maybe you feel it’s too significant a deficiency. Besides, you don’t actually make sense … a condition-buffed dagger would prevent it from being kited? … Um, no, it wouldn’t prevent that at all. That would depend very specifically on the buff and the scenario. In otherwords, a condi-buff wouldn’t be enough to address that concern.

I’m not setting any parameters; people said ‘new options’. That’s their words. I can only assume that if they meant ‘improvement’ that’s what they would have said. I specifically asked about what builds would be new; I have never strayed from that line. You want to make this about new things the dagger can do, I never asked that. I want to know what new builds a condi buffed dagger would present because that’s what people claimed a condi-buffed dagger would do.

Did i say prevent? Nope. Good try though.

Obtena.7952:

The option to use a dagger to make a chill reaper isn’t ‘new’ though … I can do that now.

Yeah, and every weapon can apply quickness. LOL

I don’t know. I just saw so many broken or not topics about the necromancer i thought I’d cater for the demographic that met half way.

the ’hahahahahhahahahahahahhahahahhahahahhaahahahaha’s were the correct response. This is what Arenanet gets for constantly ignoring the community’s issues and suggestions

creature.5120:

I know how u feel.
Same happened to me yesterday. I was Plat 3 last S all done via SoloQ now i got thrown into Gold 3.
Got Plat 1 after placement matches and the 4 games after this were all loss.
-27 etc so basically got mixed up witch bronze guys.
And the games were uncarryable i mean 100 : 500 and so stuff.
people were not able to win +1 fights,
If MMR is kittenty like this pls give me 10min Q so i go unranked instead if there are no people with same skilllvl playing.
And TOP Players most of the time play Duo Q so the kitten such games kinda easily.

Same thing here, for into gold 3 after placements then 5 completely blow out games. -30s.

Crinn.7864:

I was simply pointing out a obvious way of exploiting Ramoth’s method.

So while we are theory crafting, I’m guessing those two thieves would do amazingly well against 2 DHs. Diving in last second into a billion traps?

GG

Brokensunday.4098:

tested barrier is worst defense for a necro than death shroud… new spec condi is really good so one trick pony
on spvp you will die even faster

not having this problem at all. been winning 1v2 all day. the condi burst is real.

2 thieves, 2 mesmers, 1 necro. Foefire. Team still tries to contest mid.

Elbritil.3817:

after reading all of these ideas (and drinkin my late night energy drink ) i have 3 ideas to boost necro pereonal dps and/or improve the utility value too (and yes, 1 of them is connected to op )
1: rending shroud: instead of alpying vuln -> increase the necros direct dmg with 1/2% for every 1% life force u have. it would count for the necro as the target has 50 stack of vuln instead of 25 on full life force bar.
2: dhuum fire: instead of burn aplying -> shroud#1 skill deals bonus dmg equal to X% of ur life force (numerical value). 5% in reaper shroud #1, 10% in death shroud (could crit but necessery)
3: vampiric aura: that kitten dmg and zero to kitten healing -> like thief’s invihorating presence (15% of crit strike dmg to heal) tweaked to 7-10% and to heal not only the necro but 5-10 allies.
toughts about it?

You sure that was an energy drink you were having?

drcraig.9403:

Saiyan.1704:

War, Nec, & Mes are typically the only viable condi classes and only Mes would “run away”. There’s a reason why no condi teams exist in spvp… they’re not very efficient. In a way, other condi classes other than these 3 takes more skill to make work.

Have you watched the pro league series? Not sure how many times one the commentators will shout " omg look at the condis!!!" Or something like that. If I had to guess the reason more condi builds aren’t used is because group comp needs support builds.

Well to be fair the shoutcasters are working with terrible material and terrible game mechanics that don’t even support good spectating.

please no. they are lazy enough as is.

Lol Arenanet can’t afford to IP ban their PvPers, they wouldn’t have enough to match make.

Lily.1935:

Ramoth.9064:

Lily.1935:

Ramoth.9064:

Lily.1935:

Why further nerf a class that’ll still need a babysitter?

That’s a big exaggeration to be honest. God forbid scourge has some weaknesses to ranged attacks, it is still extremely powerful against melee and condition pressure.

that’s what people said about reaper and they still need a babysitter. Scourge will be no different.

A lot of top 250 necros do very well 1v1. Even if they lose 50% of their fights, it only means the class isn’t hampered and can only succeed in team fights.

Top matches aren’t won on 1v1s, its a coordinated effort.

Then the argument that necromancers require babysitting doesn’t make sense. You’re contributing to a teamfight as much as the teammate who is there helping your sustain?

Obtena.7952:

No, I said adding a condition in not inline with the intent of the weapon. That’s a significant difference.

Which is contradicted by the fact that you said intentions can change.