Guild Wars 2

vincecontix.1264:

Great video on how to counter a thief your played perfectly. Please post a video of your necromancer beating thieves as I would like to see that as well

Old movie on a power necro. Song on the full movie got ganked by youtube.

Intro: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4cZuKldANE
Full: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2IUL4wLcig

That was before cetain cheesebuilds became popular. I would not be able to kill a good d/p thief that fully exploits their stealth and mobility mechanics.

Great video on how to counter a thief your played perfectly. Please post a video of your necromancer beating thieves as I would like to see that as well

Oozo.7856:

wish.1027:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMdcB6Ssd38

Like this. Or just spam grenades, that tends to kill the isht out of thieves too.

I could post a movie killing bad thieves on my condition necromancer and try to draw conclusions from it, but that would be stupid.

You say that like 90% of thieves arent predictable bads.

Thaia.5146:

Usually it goes like this:
Thief: Hey I’m a Thief. I’m gonna kill you!1!!1
5 seconds later
Thief: OH kitten, OH kitten, OH kitten I’M DYING
PUFF
Godmode
REPEAT

+1 to you good sir. Very good summarization of my issues with thief.

He engages, he loses, he runs away. This process just keeps repeating itself until I get bored and waypoint. Thieves are not overpowered as much as they are obnoxious, the epitome of anti-fun.

DeadlySynz.3471:

WvW by design is meant for large numbers of people. Isn’t it like 100 per side is allowed on the map at a time?

Human nature… mob mentality.. you name it. Plus it usually works out to nearly everybody’s advantage to be within a zerg because that’s usually the best and easiest time for people to get loot.

With that being said, Anet could easily stop it if they wanted to.. just put a stacking debuff on that increases in intensity the more players in a given area (similar to agony), except it’s a permanent debuff that activates when a minimum number of players are in a given area.

A portion of hp is lost ever 3 seconds.. for example 10 players = 10% hp loss every 3 seconds; 15 players = 15%; 30 players = 30% and so on. Sure this is extreme, but watch the zergs displace faster than you can blink :P. It’d screw over my game completely, but hey, zergs would effectively be eliminated in the blink of an eye lol

That would destroy all types of team work and you would often be asked not to be near any one else. You would be wvwing but wvw vs other ppl and not with any one from on your side.

DeadlySynz.3471:

WvW by design is meant for large numbers of people. Isn’t it like 100 per side is allowed on the map at a time?

Human nature… mob mentality.. you name it. Plus it usually works out to nearly everybody’s advantage to be within a zerg because that’s usually the best and easiest time for people to get loot.

With that being said, Anet could easily stop it if they wanted to.. just put a stacking debuff on that increases in intensity the more players in a given area (similar to agony), except it’s a permanent debuff that activates when a minimum number of players are in a given area.

A portion of hp is lost ever 3 seconds.. for example 10 players = 10% hp loss every 3 seconds; 15 players = 15%; 30 players = 30% and so on. Sure this is extreme, but watch the zergs displace faster than you can blink :P. It’d screw over my game completely, but hey, zergs would effectively be eliminated in the blink of an eye lol

Very bad idea.

There should never be some kind of penalty to players just because they come together in a area.

Besides that, anet has stated that WvW is supposed to involve combat between large numbers of players so thankfully your idea won’t be implemented.

Bedazzle.5746:

A. A group of 5 tries to infiltrate a keep
B. A zerg of 75 tries to infiltrate a keep

The answer is obvious, so that does mean mechanics play a large part. Those mechanics force a zerg strategy. You cannot take an entire castle with 5 players.

5 Players shouldn’t be able to take a keep. It’s a KEEP. When in history, have 5 people ever been able to storm a castle (keep). Granted, that is a real-world example and we’re talking about a fantasy world here, but I think there is a parallel to be made.

With that being said, I have been a member of a 5-man party that has almost taken a keep. North gate of Bay. Knocked it down, then started on inner north. But, then our zerg arrived to help us finikitten. However, the conditions had to be aligned PERFECTLY for the five of us to get as far as we did.

Now towers? Yeah, you can five-man towers with much less effort.

Camps? Absolutely definitely, for sure. Sometimes even with 1.

I guess what I am trying to say is that there are challenges that are specific to group size. Is the challenge to big? Is your group to small? Finding a more appropriate goal may your answer.

(edit: finikitten…really?) lol!

my 2 cents…

World vs World is just that, large numbers vs large numbers, not elitist groups thinking the maps belong to them. I’ve been playing MMO’s for over 10 years. Zergs happen and will continue to happen.

The maps are too small for groups to be really effective, but it is possible if you don’t travel the common routes the zerg takes and strike targets that can be taken quickly (camps or paper towers).

I think the commander tags should be for guild members or a “battle group” people can join once they enter. I would also like to see this battle group with a private chat, I’ve been noticing far too much lately an upleveled character at waypoints with a name of “xghbrhku” or something to that extent.

To solo roam you must expect at all times to get hit by adds, either another person from the same server as you opponent, small roaming group, or the zerg. If this is happening to often you need to relocate to somewhere with less traffic, but the downside is fights become less frequent.

Anyone that QQ’s about the zerg but still enjoys player vs player fighting should look in to structured PvP.

Do I zerg? Sometimes when my guild is not on. When they are, we’re the pain in the kitten group that stirs up trouble cutting off supply and taking paper towers.

Bedazzle.5746:

floredon.6817:

There is a thing called solo WvW roaming. Google it.

lol…you’re not going to take a supply camp as a solo WvW roamer. You may take a Dolyak…but once you meet up with with the zerg or that group of 3-5…your roaming is over.

I have taken several supply camps solo as a ranger.

Bedazzle.5746:

lol…you’re not going to take a supply camp as a solo WvW roamer. You may take a Dolyak…but once you meet up with with the zerg or that group of 3-5…your roaming is over.

Not sure if serious or just terrible.

Bedazzle.5746:

lol…you’re not going to take a supply camp as a solo WvW roamer.

This is news to me.

The utter lack of understanding of WvW in the QQ of this thread is amazing, and I’ll leave it at that.

Don’t like WvW? Go do some PvE stuff and have some fun. It’ll save us from having to see the QQ in map chat. You’re happy and having fun, we’re happy and having fun. Win all the way around.

Edit – congrats on almost ninja’ing DB’s garrison, elite. Wish I could have seen it. xD

Last night me and about 6 guild members were able to ram down the outer upgraded gate of DB’s garrison with just one ram. No zerg came to kill us. We only died when a group of random defenders came after us on the inside. No where near a zerg though

(This was in tier 2, where you would expect everything to be zergs)

Our guild, with a group of 5, built a siege and attacked a tower, we took the tower and held it against incoming zergs.

We also captured all the camps, and had really fun.

solutions:
-if damage is taken while in stealth.. the damage numbers should appear the the player delivering the attack.
-If hit by a critical attack while stealth, you should be revealed
-All traps triggered by a stealth player should cause the player to be revealed
-Any attack from stealth if blocked should reveal the player
-If targeting a player that enters stealth, and not acquiring a new target before the stealth player reappears, should automatically re-target
-The first attack from dropping from stealth OR from being stealth should have the same bonuses as the attack from stealth.

This is why, at the very least, ranger pet’s should be able to hunt thieves while in stealth. Then leap attack with a knock down when caught. If anyone actually cared about balance, more authentic RP, and fun, they should agree with this.

edit: after watching this again, there should be a threshold where damage breaks stealth.

Yeah Terkov, didn’t your crystal ball come with your copy of GW2?

Lepew.7890:

Allow me to translate into whyner.

Waa, waa waa waaa waaaaaaaaaa THIEF Stealth Trap waaa waaa. WAA! WAAAAAA! THIEF Stealth Trap. Nerf nerf NERRRRRRRRF waa waaa waaaaaa!

I believe that’s what everyone did when those traps came out.

Anyway, your argument is sound and backed up with solid evidence. Everyone, look here. This is a fantastic example of how to make your point.

testpig.5018:

solutions:
-if damage is taken while in stealth.. the damage numbers should appear the the player delivering the attack.
-If hit by a critical attack while stealth, you should be revealed
-All traps triggered by a stealth player should cause the player to be revealed
-Any attack from stealth if blocked should reveal the player
-If targeting a player that enters stealth, and not acquiring a new target before the stealth player reappears, should automatically re-target
-The first attack from dropping from stealth OR from being stealth should have the same bonuses as the attack from stealth.

-signed.

I like all these ideas.

currently a thief can just stealth and no damage will effect that stealth at all. nothing can break it. Which is stupid.

As for the video the OP posted – that’s just a disgustingly good example on how stupid stealth is in this game. Come on Anet – start thinking a bit harder. You started off saying “stealth is a incredibly powerful mechanic that should be used sparingly.” Now you let thieves have a perma stealth build option.

BrimstoneAshe.5043:

As an Engineer, you have quite a few tools that can be handy vs thieves. Unfortunately based on what you’ve listed in what you’re using for skills, you’re not using any of them. I’d say you’re going to struggle a bit with thieves. Or at least I should say I would struggle with them with your build. I’ve run P/P build a long time with my engie. Thieves can be beat consistently with it if you change your build a little bit.

I’d replace Elixir U with Toolkit. Toolkit is a must for me in any build I use for my Engineer in WvW. When I first started playing the Engineer I thought it was a pointless kit. Now I can’t go without it. The block from Toolkit is amazing and using it at the right time vs a thief is a game changer. Pretty much every ability in the Toolkit is useful in WvW and when fighting a theif. I’d also look at mixing some toughness gear in too helps reduce the burst damage of a thief.

But as far as how you beat a thief with your build? Timing. It really is about timing. Think in 4 second intervals. Now different thief builds will require things to time, but with your build you need to stack on as many conditions you can in those 4 seconds they are out.

Static Shot, Blowtorch, and Poison Volley. Try to make poison volley your last attack before they go into stealth because it will still track them and hit them even if they are stealthed as long as you get the attack off before they stealth.

If you can get poison, confusion, burn and bleed(all possible from pistols) on him before he stealths, he’s going to struggle because he won’t be able to clear all of those conditions. When he stealths, you can heal up, or drop potions on you for the might stacks. But again..be aware of the timing. After they stealth, they will attack in 3 to 4 seconds unless they used Refuge. Drop a glue shot right before they’re about to pop out and dodge. Stack on the conditions.

The biggest challenge you’re going to have with your build is dealing with their Shadow Refuge. That ability can allow them to reset the fight if you dont counter it well. And unfortunately your build doesn’t have great tools for it.

Your only option with your current build is blowtorch. And if that’s on cooldown then you’re pretty much stuck twiddling your thumbs knowing they are going to reset.

This is probably your best advice I heard so far. As a Condi build, you really don’t need Power as well. I would suggest, Rabid and Apothecary gear with the Toolkit. You will be Boss.

omg char limit…

Tuluum.9638:

Thats like asking someone why their favorite color is their favorite color. Its subjective.

I’d say it’s more like asking why you like a thing which chances to be that colour, prior to finding out you like the colour.

Tuluum.9638:

First, I dislike the implementation of the stealth mechanic as a whole. This applies to both playing AS a thief, as well as fighting against them. I much prefer systems that require skill to become invisible…

I don’t necessarily disagree with this actually. Keeping in stealth by doing things like ‘stab a rabbit’ or ‘fire a pistol and leap back and forth’ are quite amusing to me, but don’t really seem logical or fitting as ways to sneak. I’m willing to overlook it under the circumstances though because I think it would be very hard to implement that way in a game like GW2. For what it is, I think they’ve made it quite nice graphically in a lot of ways, but it’s still an MMO and takes the approach of ‘build with old things so people with oversized calculators can scrape by (until their CPUs melt)’.

It’s an issue that also pops up on Planetside2, which appears to have a similar approach (I feel like in five years we’ll finally be using DX11 in MMO’s) right down to the CPU thing. They have issues though with finding a happy medium between ‘totally invisible’ and ‘translucent grey blob you can see anywhere’ when it comes to lowered graphical settings a lot of players use. Also one faction, typically in dark purple and black colours by default, is known for being much harder to see in the darker areas – infiltrator or not – while when they’ve gone with brighter colours and shiny effects, some have difficulty hiding at all. It’d be annoying for whole new reasons if, with an environment conductive to actual sneaking, we begin to find people with a certain faction colour, armour skin, etc. etc. have an advantage when it comes to hiding. Sort of like the whole ‘be an asura so nobody knows what in the nine hells you’re doing’ thing, or ‘fall off the jumping puzzle because your charr obscures the tiny area of you which you can actually use to land with, and your view is trying to become one with the wall’.

Tuluum.9638:

…It turns into a fight of attrition where skill, mistakes, and quick decision making start to become much less relevant (though they obviously still apply).

I disagree with this bit though. A particular mistake may be less relevant, as in general any one move is less relevant, but a longer fight also means a longer time you both need to focus, and plenty of time to make more mistakes or errors of judgement that still put you at a disadvantage compared to your previous situation: it still matters because whoever makes the more frequent or fatal mistakes is worse off relative to the one who doesn’t, even if that ends up being a very very close call (which can make it quite interesting IMO). Ironically I more often hear the reverse of this argument: that when TTK is lower, sheer chance (including outside factors like lag, especially in games which put all their servers in Frankfurt and Dallas) can make a huge difference, and so skill plays less of a role. Not that I think either preference is invalid, but I do take issue with the idea that one is necessarily easier or harder (once you get past the learning stages anyway; I can see how it’s easier to learn when TTK is high because even if you fail miserably you’ve more time to take in how you failed, instead of bam, dead).

Tuluum.9638:

A “win” against a competent thief will involve them running away…

I find this a bit questionable as well, really. Sure, they’re an evasive class and they do stand a good chance of escaping if they’re a decent player. I actually quite like the stage when I’m getting people to run off, and I know that I’ve done this much right, leaving just a few more tweaks to my build/approach and then I can work on finishing them off as well. This won’t be for everyone, which is fine, but I think to present it as the best outcome really does nobody any favours.

Essentially you’ve reduced any thief who fails to escape to less than ‘competent’, and by extension nobody can ever learn to catch and kill a competent thief, because if you could it wouldn’t have been one. It’s like a Catch-22, only all the more absurd because it’s self-applied.

Tuluum.9638:

Why do you enjoy fighting thieves so much? :P

Honestly, besides the reasons I put up-post, I think one significant thing is because so many other people don’t. The harder they fall, and all that…

Devon, thanks for detailing your reasoning, but I don’t understand why you think a WXP allocation reset is required for this. There are two separate points:

1) Even if the range increase was significantly lower, it would still be very valuable for only 5 points, and anyone regularly using arrowcarts would be foolish not to go for it.
2) When confusion was nerfed, mesmers didn’t get a full replacement of their confusion gear if they wanted to switch to a power shatter build. There is a long history of balance changes making some of your gear/skills obsolete in MMORPGs, and this would be very minor change compared to those that have come in the past.

Regarding arrow cart damage: as a commander, I’ve successfully kept an enemy’s Bay for 6+ hours, wiping the enemy force 15+ times despite being outmanned 2:1 to 3:1 with every door and wall breached. This was thanks to a massive number of arrow carts in inner/lordroom while keeping an eye out for mesmers/portals so they didn’t manage to surprise us.

But here’s the thing: that happened BEFORE the arrow cart damage improvement. Arrow carts were already capable of incredible things before they got +80% damage. While I understand this depends on the specific tower/keep, you’d be surprised at what you could do in most places with proper placement. A good defensive commander can do miracles.

The problem for defense was never damage. The problem always was not having the time to place enough arrowcarts before the enemy zerg had already breached the gate. If you really want to make arrow carts more valuable, revert their damage but reduce their cost to 20 supply to make them cheaper/faster to build, while also increasing the siege despawn timer to 1h30.

As always, I think everyone really appreciates your excellent communication Devon, but I suspect a few people are starting to believe you’re not playing the same game they’re playing. So I think it would be really valuable if we could have an equivalent of the PvP State of the Game with you for WvW, because whatever design decisions you make, that’s a better way to introduce and debate them than a forum thread which derails into thousands of pages of flaming and circular arguments.

Bllade.1029:

This reveal trap. No. Just no. Rediculous.

Shush! You’re an annoying Thief and nobody likes you!

:>

if it costs the trapper 4 sec stabillity, invulnerabillity,15 badges, 500 karma, 10 supplys
its pretty much a win for the attackin thief o0
you SEE where the traps is beeing placed

RedThinLine.9468:

Well if you say that removing stealth from a thief will help thief players l2p, you have no clue on how MMOs work, thieves are just a high damage class and their only defensive mechanism is stealth…

Stealth, and shadowstep! Two defensive mechanisms. Their two defensive mechanisms is stealth, shadowstep, and evasions. Three! Three defensive mechanisms!