Guild Wars 2

CETheLucid.3964:

What the hell could you possibly say to some of these people? lol

How about “Sorry, here’s your money back.”

Obtena.7952:

Ashen.2907:

Obtena.7952:

Ticky.5831:

mrstealth.6701:

Obtena.7952:

No, you have options … you can either accept that Legendary crafting was unsustainable content, forget it and enjoy the other aspects of the game or decide that it’s such a big deal to you that you quit the game.

If anything were to be labeled as unsustainable content, it’s living world/story content that we’ve seen for the past two seasons. A couple hours of content that takes weeks to months to develop, followed by weeks or months of nothing new to do. It’s just not possible to make content at the rate players are able to go through it.

But I’m not going to argue for the suspension of that type of content. Even though I was far from impressed with the majority of Anet’s installments, I understand the value of such content. It offers change and growth to the world, and the ability to progress the game’s narrative. It keeps players interested and involved with the game’s world.

I’d prefer spend my time on long-term reward goals over more episodic story but I do not want to see living world content sacrificed for it. I don’t have the right to tell players that content that is important to them shouldn’t be made because I think the content that matters to me is more important.

Also, it’s pretty absurd and irrelevant to call legendary collections unsustainable. They have a set number they announced. They don’t really have to sustain anything once that’s delivered., other than maybe unforseen bugfixes.

And it’s already been proven that they can both, a) successfully make an arbitrary collection b) Create 16 legendarys(they already created 20 before the game launched)

Is it really? I don’t think Anet would agree with you when it’s taken them 6 months with a team of devs to deliver … ONE.

Ticky.5831:

Obtena.7952:

Arguments about financials from players that have none of them is pretty presumptuous. Frankly, I think it’s ridiculous that people are suggesting that Anet has not first and foremost considered this factor; it’s a business, it impacts employees in significant ways and obviously affects us as players. The suggestions here people make indicate Anet have taken this decision lightly. I can assure you they have not.

I’m confident they factored it. That doesn’t necessarily mean they correctly estimated the value of the factor.

Really? Based on what? Complete lack of data?

Based on the fact that human beings are fallible. Just because someone considered a factor does not mean that they are correct in whatever conclusion they came to.

The real question is, based on what data would one conclude that Anet is infallible and that the fact that they put consideration into these factors indicates that they are inherently correct in their conclusions? Can you provide a single bit of data to demonstrate that Anet is nto capable of making a mistake?

So you’re suggesting that just because Humans are fallable, that Anet is wrong? !

Nope.

Not what I said at all.

You asked, “based on what? Complete lack of data?” in regards to a comment that considering a factor does not automatically mean that one has estimated the value of the factor correctly. The point is not that one is wrong, but that it is a bad idea to automatically assume that one is right and that one’s assumptions, and that is what Anet did-make an assumption, are beyond second guessing.

So, again…

Having considered the factors involved does not necessarily mean that the resulting conclusions are correct. They might be correct. They might be incorrect. They might be pretty darned close. They might be completely out of bounds.

It turns out that there is no substance called aether that occupies the space in between planetary bodies despite the theory being well considered at the time. It turns out that there is no elephant standing on a tortoise holding up the planet despite consideration of the matter. It turns out that the sun is not the center of the universe, nor the earth the center of the solar system, despite considerable consideration of the matter. It turns out that the circumference of the earth is just shy of 25,000 miles-as determined via significant consideration of the matter.

You see, people can be wrong. They can also be right. In both cases this can be in spite of the amount of thought or consideration put into the matter. One should generally not just assume that anyone who says, “X,” is right just because they say they thought about it, or you assume that they did. The point I made, and the point of the other individual you quoted, was not that Anet is wrong, merely that we should not automatically assume that they are correct in their conclusions or assumptions.

Obtena.7952:

Ticky.5831:

mrstealth.6701:

Obtena.7952:

No, you have options … you can either accept that Legendary crafting was unsustainable content, forget it and enjoy the other aspects of the game or decide that it’s such a big deal to you that you quit the game.

If anything were to be labeled as unsustainable content, it’s living world/story content that we’ve seen for the past two seasons. A couple hours of content that takes weeks to months to develop, followed by weeks or months of nothing new to do. It’s just not possible to make content at the rate players are able to go through it.

But I’m not going to argue for the suspension of that type of content. Even though I was far from impressed with the majority of Anet’s installments, I understand the value of such content. It offers change and growth to the world, and the ability to progress the game’s narrative. It keeps players interested and involved with the game’s world.

I’d prefer spend my time on long-term reward goals over more episodic story but I do not want to see living world content sacrificed for it. I don’t have the right to tell players that content that is important to them shouldn’t be made because I think the content that matters to me is more important.

Also, it’s pretty absurd and irrelevant to call legendary collections unsustainable. They have a set number they announced. They don’t really have to sustain anything once that’s delivered., other than maybe unforseen bugfixes.

And it’s already been proven that they can both, a) successfully make an arbitrary collection b) Create 16 legendarys(they already created 20 before the game launched)

Is it really? I don’t think Anet would agree with you when it’s taken them 6 months with a team of devs to deliver … ONE.

Ticky.5831:

Obtena.7952:

Arguments about financials from players that have none of them is pretty presumptuous. Frankly, I think it’s ridiculous that people are suggesting that Anet has not first and foremost considered this factor; it’s a business, it impacts employees in significant ways and obviously affects us as players. The suggestions here people make indicate Anet have taken this decision lightly. I can assure you they have not.

I’m confident they factored it. That doesn’t necessarily mean they correctly estimated the value of the factor.

Really? Based on what? Complete lack of data?

Based on the fact that human beings are fallible. Just because someone considered a factor does not mean that they are correct in whatever conclusion they came to.

The real question is, based on what data would one conclude that Anet is infallible and that the fact that they put consideration into these factors indicates that they are inherently correct in their conclusions? Can you provide a single bit of data to demonstrate that Anet is nto capable of making a mistake?

Mike O Brien.4613:

And I’m always available by email.

Mo

Perhaps you should tell us which email this is, sir? I am the last one to point fingers at failure to respond to emails, as I myself am a terrible correspondent, nor do I expect you to answer every message from thousands or millions of players. Thus I am not particularly perturbed at the lack of response to my forum PM sent to you the day you posted this thread over a week ago. (Darn this text format, I am sure someone will think my tone is snippy, I assure you it is not).

However, when you say you are available, that suggests you mean more than “messages may be sent to me,” and that you might, in fact, acknowledge they were sent even if merely with a boilerplate “message received, thank you for your input.” Therefore I consider it possible that you meant some other email address even though you did not provide one, and that PMs on this forum do not catch your eye.

Would you be willing to clarify what you meant by that line?

Obtena.7952:

Arguments about financials from players that have none of them is pretty presumptuous. Frankly, I think it’s ridiculous that people are suggesting that Anet has not first and foremost considered this factor; it’s a business, it impacts employees in significant ways and obviously affects us as players. The suggestions here people make indicate Anet have taken this decision lightly. I can assure you they have not.

I am sure that Anet considered this factor.

Just as they surely considered the factor of not having a gear tier more powerful than exotic for people to work toward at launch. They lost players in droves and reversed their original intention.

Just as they surely considered the implementation of FtP in terms of what degree of conversion to box sales it would generate. The financial reports indicated that it was lower than expected…they were wrong.

Just as they surely considered the impact on the desert BL on WvW. And yet, after who knows how many thousands of man hours spent on its development, it is being pulled in order to return the alpine map.

And so on.

Having considered something, not having made a decision lightly, does not impart infallibility. No business, or business project, would ever fail if it did.

Obtena.7952:

Arguments about financials from players that have none of them is pretty presumptuous. Frankly, I think it’s ridiculous that people are suggesting that Anet has not first and foremost considered this factor; it’s a business, it impacts employees in significant ways and obviously affects us as players. The suggestions here people make indicate Anet have taken this decision lightly. I can assure you they have not.

They’ve miscalculated responses before to financial decisions, such as the decision to not include an extra character slot with all expansion packs pre purchase. That miscalculation hit the gaming magazines and slowed down sales because of negative player response, and had to be changed.

So, no. I don’t think ANet is all wise and knowing and incapable of making a mistake when it comes to player reactions.

Obtena.7952:

I guess that’s a matter of opinion. Anet has the data to make these decisions, we don’t.

During the past history, Anet proved to us time and time again that they are extremely bad at interpreting their metrics.

It still doesn’t matter. The simple truth is, they got the money, and then didn’t deliver. No amount of sugarcoating or sidestepping the issue will change that.

The fact that they have shown that once they get their money they no longer care whether promised goods get delivered is going to bite them in the behind once the next expansion prepurchase time arrives. Because only a dumb person is ever going to trust their promises again.

Character slots.

minbariguy.7504:

I…can’t believe anyone is actually trying to argue about whether or not ANet actually announced a full set of 16 weapons and used that announcement as a selling point for HoT. Talk about arguing in bad faith.

This is cut and dry. They said, in essence, “Here is what we will be delivering in this expansion”, they took money for said expansion, and then they declined to deliver what they said they were going to.

Given ANet’s insistence over the years that they never discuss content until they are 100% certain it is deliverable, it was entirely reasonable for people to expect the delivery of the entire new set of legendary weapons.

Arguing anything to the contrary is an argument supporting unethical behavior, no matter how much lipstick you put on the pig.

To be fair, min, they’ve “postponed indefinitely.” That means that they have not failed to deliver, they’ve just increased the intervals between releases by an indeterminate number. I’m pretty sure that means they aren’t legally at risk. I’m also pretty sure that they have a lawyer on staff or on call who vetted this process, or that the clause in the ToU/UA which states that game conditions may change covers their butts.

What they have also done is disappointed yet another segment of their player-base. Just like they’ve disappointed lots of other segments of said player-base. What remains to be seen is how many remain in their corner.

Obtena.7952:

You don’t seem to understand what you are actually paying for when you purchased HoT

And you seem to think that apparently i should just accept that what i actually paid for were empty promises, and i shouldn’t have expected any of them to be fulfilled at all. And like that, for some reason.
No, sorry. A major part of expansion is a major part of expansion. if i have paid for it, i expect all the major parts to actually be delivered. Or i won’t be prepurchasing anything from Anet again.

Because if i accept the premise that Anet can (and will) change the deal after getting the money, and is not actually expected to deliver any major features, then i’d be stupid to give them any money before actually confirming that everything they advertised have already made it into the game.

If the expansion was fine Anet would not need to assign a quarterly update to fixing it.

If the expansion was fine Anet would not need to announce cessation of development of aspects of it.

Falling apart does seem to have a touch of hyperbole though

Halvorn.9831:

MO is definitely changing the way the company responds publicly, he is not hiding behind silence.

MO is the one who set the policy of silence in the first place. Colin wasnt hiding behind silence, he was following his boss’ (MO) directions.

The main problem here is not about whether we need new legendaries, whether we deserve new legendaries, or whether HoT was worth the money we spent, but how HoT was advertised and made.

Do we have to have another 16 new weapons? Probably not, the vast majority of people don’t, and will never come close to owning all of the original ones in this game’s lifetime, let alone get any of the new ones. Do we deserve new weapons/armors/backpacks? No, we don’t have to have them, there are enough newly released outfits/weapons/armors in the gem store for us to upgrade our looks with. Do I think HoT was worth it’s money? For me, I think so. $50 is nothing for me, and I got quite a few hours of entertainment out of it. My problem with this is the way HoT was advertised and designed, and how it turned out.

First of all, many aspects of HoT advertisement was either about legendaries or directly related to it. If you remember the pre-order advertisement page set up for HoT, many sections were dedicated to advertising new legendary weapons and armors, and how the content relates to them. I also remember one of the few advertising videos released was just a video showing off the new legendary backpack, so it’s sending players a clear message this is one of the major aspects they wanted to focus on in the expansion.

Then, when the game was released, literally every aspect of PVE in the new zones are geared toward getting the new legendary items, from map completion, to masteries, to raids, to meta events, to achievements, and so on. So when you suddenly pull out on the final rewards, suddenly these zones/events/raids make no sense for us to participate in. Every new zone’s gold income is inferior to silverwastes/world bosses, and experience gain, karma, quests, and just general exploration fun is not as good as the old zones, so when you pull out on legendaries, you gotta ask, what are we playing these new zones for? For me this is comparable to a Mario game that had the level end flagpole removed, where you have a fun and interesting level that you play through, but is unable to claim your reward by exiting the level itself. Was the journey fun? Yeah, but why would I play it again if I’m just stuck at the end with nothing to do? Just something to think about.

If you’re a PvP player, it’s mandatory. None of the core specs come even close to the elites, and balance at the moment is pretty (understatement) wonky.

If you’re a open-world grinder and loved playing the Silverwastes over and over, you’ll love it.

If you played mostly WvW, don’t bother and save your money for either another game or until they fix a lot of the garbage brought into WvW with HoT.

If you ran dungeons, again, don’t bother, as rewards got nerfed. If you liked to run super-organized/hardcore groups, well, there are raids.

Imho, the only reason to get the expansion is the specializations you see as fun. I like HoT only because the reaper is an enjoyable and fresh take on necro. Otherwise I dislike the entire expansion and think the price is far too steep for what is offered.

PyrateSilly.4710:

Thaddeus.4891:

That said. The expansion isn’t worth 50$ so far.

Your opinion only. I paid $100 for the ultimate edition and have not been disappointed at all. I do not regret the $100 for it. So again it is your opinion, stop trying to push your opinion as the only correct version.

At any price, you’re not getting what you paid for.

I am happy that you guys have fun in SAB

Unfortunately I am not able to play it, because it will give me migraine. I think Anet might bring SAB now every year in 1st of April, like they did in GW1 with Corporal Bane missions in Embark Beach. That would be awesome, so people could have fun in every year, and Anet don’t need to waste their resources to make new jokes and tricks.

Let’s hope guys that this will happen, and we will get SAB every year now on.

Thank you Anet for bringing back SAB for those who can play it I am pleased on behalf of all others players.

Yea, there’s no reason to remove jump pad capability when we’ve had it long before gliding.

I…can’t believe anyone is actually trying to argue about whether or not ANet actually announced a full set of 16 weapons and used that announcement as a selling point for HoT. Talk about arguing in bad faith.

This is cut and dry. They said, in essence, “Here is what we will be delivering in this expansion”, they took money for said expansion, and then they declined to deliver what they said they were going to.

Given ANet’s insistence over the years that they never discuss content until they are 100% certain it is deliverable, it was entirely reasonable for people to expect the delivery of the entire new set of legendary weapons.

Arguing anything to the contrary is an argument supporting unethical behavior, no matter how much lipstick you put on the pig.

bloodletting wolf.2837:

“The first handful being introduced in HoT and others released at regular intervals”. Listen we could fight about the marketing and wording all day and not get anywhere.

It’s not only that. There’s also the whole HoT reveal show, where MO and Colin named every major part of the newly announced expansion. One of those parts was a set (full set, there was no mention of underwater weapons missing from it at that time) of new legendaries. Any informations about this set being incomplete (without underwater ones) or delayed in coming happened after the first wave of people prepurchased the expansion.

For me that means i should never prepurchase anything from Anet again. Because after i do that, and they’ll get my money, they might change the deal on me.

bloodletting wolf.2837:

I would prefer the truth no matter how uncomfortable.

I’d prefer them not taking my money for things that won’t be delivered.

bloodletting wolf.2837:

“The first handful being introduced in HoT and others released at regular intervals”. Listen we could fight about the marketing and wording all day and not get anywhere.

Argue about wording? There’s nothing to argue about the wording. Their HoT specific website with all the features that a player will (not) get states that they "will be releasing new legendary weapons in small groups at regular intervals until the full set of sixteen has been added to the game. No mentioning of doing that after their first 3 weapons + 1 weapon 4 months after would be added to the game. I also came along this part..
“By the time we were able to start implementing, we were all really pleased with what we had laid out. From brainstorming to testing and bug fixing, building everything for a new legendary weapon reasonably takes about a month, not including the art for the weapon.” Same topic – so basically the team was able to create 1 legendary weapon per month…. You do the math

bloodletting wolf.2837:

My main point is that as far as MO is concerned no more promises and more open communication.

They already tried that after the first legendary fiasco in 2013. They said they won’t be telling us about their ideas anymore, because some will end up not getting implemented in game for various reasons. They said they will only tell us about things when they will be 100% certain that we will get – which caused the lack of transparency.
Now, MO is literally playing the same tune again. And players believe him.
No. Transparency was never an issue. Working and executing plans was. Taking this in consideration – the new legendary weapons were closer to an idea than they were to a realized project – knowing how competent their team was so far, they still went with promoting this feature (in the same way as they promoted it back in 2013).

bloodletting wolf.2837:

Do you have the right to be mad? Sure. Does that give forum goers the right to be so caustic? No.

No? Why not? This forum goers paid for something and didn’t get what was promoted in return.
They held their end of the deal, the provider didn’t. They can and should be as cynical, salty, angry and loud as they are – and more, until they get what they paid for or at least until they would be pesented with a solution to the broken trade. (the customer didn’t pay for the development team to work on bugs. They paid for the expansion with the promoted features- so it’s only fair they would CONSULT with the customer, before using their money for other purposes. Instead they said "oh yea, sorry guys, we’re gonna use that money to fix the bugs and issues – which were present prior to the expac)

bloodletting wolf.2837:

What I’m trying to get across is that Anet is at a cross roads. One branch is promises with no implementation and the other is where they let us know “hey we worked on this and it didn’t work out”. I would prefer the truth no matter how uncomfortable.

Transparency was the 3rd issue, and shouldn’t be used as an excuse for their actions.

if u could chill a bit on the amount of mats needed it would be nice.

At this point a compromise should be made. Let the staff working on the “quest” portion of the legendary journey work on new content. Put the completed legendary skins in as drops in HoT.

What really should happen is that the legendaries should be in as drops for everyone across the entirety of the GW2 game as the legendaries were supposed to come out in 2013 without an expansion purchase. They were supposed to be for everyone.

There is a complete lack of integrity in what is happening with all of this across the board.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, oh man….

Wow, Anet. I thought it was a joke, but no. Red post and everything. Worse of all you tried to sell it as a good thing. Oh we are stopping this to work on LS3. Because everyone just loved how LS2 played out.

Seriously. People paid money in the hopes that it would be different. Hell I even dropped some cash, and BAM.

Its like you guys are trying to alienate your player base. One step forward, two steps back. But LOOK, we have SAB. For that one third of the playerbase that likes it.

So what is the plan for those players (new and old) that were looking forward to the new legendaries? Let me guess: Once you have worked out the kinks and have made it easier on your team to code they will start getting worked on again BUT they will only be made available to people that buy your NEXT expansion. Right? Right?

Yeah.

Man, this is going to be fun.

Yeah, I’m not interested in “hush gems”. I’m interested in them finishing what they start.

Ticky.5831:

spartan.9421:

I personally think they he, like everyone else, is blowing this way out of proportion. Anet isn’t removing all legendaries they are just not adding in the newest ones. Yet, people are acting as if Anet is saying they are removing ALL legendaries. The whole thing will blow over and people will no longer care in a couple of weeks to a month, happens every time theres news on a big change. Just like when and made the change to diamond skin trait, people flipped out, but, now no one cares. If Anet shows that it’s better this way everyone will calm down in time, lashing out at Anet won’t solve anything though.

Yeah, that’s not at all how people are(generally) acting, but go ahead, keep demonizing them.

I haven’t seen ANYONE say they are getting rid of all the legendaries. Mostly mad that they aren’t getting what they paid for.

How dare we be upset about not getting what we paid for. I am so tired of entitled gamers these days. Back in my day companies just took our money and didn’t give us what we bought and we were happy about it! /sarcasm

Aedelric.1287:

SAB better be a permanent addition when it returns! I really do not want to wait several years to play content I like… again.

Prepare to be disappointed… again.

DoctorDing.5890:

They must have made that calculation and decided it was worth it.

They’ve made a lot of such calculations over the years. And the population keeps shrinking, so i guess maybe they aren’t that good at those calculations at all. One of the main reasons for that is that they have shown time and time again, that they just can’t predict player reactions at all. I wouldn’t be surprised if they thought that all of it will just blow over before the end of weekend.

Celtic Lady.3729:

(snip)

I wouldn’t respond to him any further if I were you. He’s not posting in order to honestly debate the issue or try to understand. He’s only posting to try to get a reaction. Like all people who do this, the best response is to ignore. You know what they say to not feed on the internet? Answering is feeding and not advised.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Nike.2631:

DoctorDing.5890:

Legal challenge: not going to happen. Everyone is an armchair law expert. Most of them are wrong.

Refund: also not going to happen unless you bought the game very recently. Even then, good luck.

If you believe anything else then, frankly, you are dreaming.

Gem buying suspended indefinitely? Gonna happen. A lot.

Pre-order for ex-pac 2 given the sharpest scrutiny with every single bullet point being something that might get ‘suspended indefinitely’? Gonna happen. A lot.

The butcher’s bill for this decision is in the far off future… and they’re gambling that they can win people back or that it’ll be forgotten before then… but its still a huge gamble and one that could very well gut their revenue when those 70 Ex-pac Devs finally do put down their pencils and hand in their work.

^

Considering how people to this day bring up the Manifesto, a 6 year old document made 2 years before the game launched, and throw it in ANet’s face for failure to keep promises, people will remember this for years to come. It’s going to be brought up with every promise they make and every expansion they sell. It’s one of those economic decisions that is penny wise and dollar foolish as it’s likely to cost them dollars in gems, real money and good will for every penny they save by putting Legendaries on “eventually.”

Too be fair, MO used the manifesto and threw it in our face first, so I guess it would be hypocritical if he would use part of the manifesto to excuse his action, while ignoring another.