Guild Wars 2

Speaking for myself, I have a certain curve in which I balance content and reward. If the content is enjoyable, then a don’t need a huge reward. Conversely, if the reward is big, then I don’t need to particularly enjoy the content. This curve is different for everyone. And I’ll also note that higher rewards in some parts of the game subsidize my experience in others. For example, I’m losing a lot in gold learning wing 2, but gold earned in fractals helps offset that cost.

Right now, I don’t think the dungeon rewards are high enough to land on many people’s reward curves. This was true for some dungeon paths pre-nerf, such as sorrows embrace path 2. The reward for the time invested did not justify the content for most people.

And, even pre nerf, dungeons were not the most profitable activity. If you were after just gold, you would silverwastes chest farm. But, for myself, I would earn my gold from dungeons, because the content was more enjoyable. But, now, dungeons have fallen off the reward curve.

Thaddeus.4891:

Blaeys.3102:

I think both sides have cognizant arguments that should be heard.

Yes, the conversation has become a little circular because of the same small group of people (on both sides) pushing their agenda.

However, between the hyperbole/namecalling/belittling comments (again, from both sides), there is still a debate/conversation worth having. Please don’t let it devolve into a grudge match between egos. So, stop directing comments at individual players and making blanket hypothetical statements. Focus instead on making your argument in as clear and calm a method as possible.

This is an important topic for many of us.

Yes exactly. There is good argument on both sides. Let’s not take extreme on both side as a general represent of the other sides.

Most people that want an easy mode don’t say thing like ‘’I have zero interest in “applying myself” to raids in their current form’’ or ‘’If we can’t have a easy-mode raid, I rather that the game don’t have the normal raid either’’.

Just like not everybody that are against easy mode just want to jealously keep their content out of filthy casual enjoyment just becasue that would lessen their own sense of achievement and pride.

Your point is well-taken. However, I would caution assigning equal weight to the hyperbole. I notice you aren’t quoting anyone in your “no easy mode raids” strawman, for example.

If you want easy mode raids, you literally have the rest of the game to experience the type of content you desire. See fractals, dungeons, world bosses, and the HOT maps.

Different content can cater to different players. You don’t need to like everything.

Regarding legendary armor, I wouldn’t mind if it eventually becomes available in other parts of the game. But “exclusive” access is not new with HOT. You can only obtain the new legendary weapons through pve. You can only achieve the new legendary backpiece through pvp.

Eventually, you’ll be able to get a legendary backpiece through fractals. Eventually, legendary armor through raids (and who knows what else – currently, you need to do at least some open world pve). Anything you can’t buy off the trading post is in some way "exclusive. "

EDIT: removed references to individual players

I was in this group as one of the pugs! Healing druid. Thanks for my first sloth kill.

Ashen.2907:

Absurdo.8309:

eldrin.6471:

And whats the difference from buying from the tp or buying raid runs?
The cost is 10 times as high and the only winners are anet.
does this add to the prestige?
hope so

Eldrin, I think you misunderstand. Legendary items always required completing particular content, with the exception of buying them off the trading post. It’s no different now with raids. And you can buy raid runs, if you really want to.

Ascended, the best in slot stat, is available from any game mode. Yes, you can’t get legendary armor without raids, but you couldn’t get other legendary items without certain content either.

Forgive me if I am mistaken as my first hand knowledge of crafting legendary weapons is nonexistent due to finding them to all be exceedingly ugly, but didn’t creating an origal legendary weapon call for participation in a variety of content rather than one specific type of conent such as raids?

Yes, but you also cannot finish legendary armor just by raiding. For example, you need to beat chak gerent five times. Also, by the collection description at least, the collection only awards the precursor. We don’t know what else will be required.

eldrin.6471:

And whats the difference from buying from the tp or buying raid runs?
The cost is 10 times as high and the only winners are anet.
does this add to the prestige?
hope so

Eldrin, I think you misunderstand. Legendary items always required completing particular content, with the exception of buying them off the trading post. It’s no different now with raids. And you can buy raid runs, if you really want to.

Ascended, the best in slot stat, is available from any game mode. Yes, you can’t get legendary armor without raids, but you couldn’t get other legendary items without certain content either.

Manasa Devi.7958:

Absurdo.8309:

Legendary items always required participation in particular content.

This hasn’t been true for any legendary weapon until the ones released with HoT.

True, you could buy them with gold. Personally, I was ok with this, but I don’t think most of the player base was. The argument is that legendary items should show prestige. Regardless, you can currently buy raid runs, if you have enough gold.

eldrin.6471:

In the past we had choices about how we went about getting our gear,if you didn’t like one way you could get it another,and thats what attracted so meany people to this game,i think the term used was play how you want.The game is becoming more do what we(anet)want when we want it done and i think most players do not like that.
I relay hope anet can get the mess they have made sorted before this game goes down the not so mystic toilet

Ascended is the highest stat tier, tied with legendary. You can get that from any game mode.

It’s ok to have exclusive skins tied to a particular game mode. It’s a way for players to progress.

Legendary items always required participation in particular content. For weapons, you need to map complete. For the backpiece, you need to pvp (or, eventually, fractals). For armor you need to raid. This “exclusivity” for legendary items has been in the game since day 1.

Dashingsteel.3410:

The “entitlement” argument is ridiculous. If anyone is entitled, it is those gamers who cried for hard content, you know, the ones who weren’t satisfied with core gw2 and wanted Anet to design content just for them.

The controversy over legendary armor is this. Many gw2 players have stated their dislike of raids and raiding culture long before Anet decided to implement raids. Anet decides to go ahead and institute raiding in the game. Before Anet knows if raiding is going to be popular or accepted, they decide to gate legendary armor behind them.

I think it was a bad move by Anet. There are players that have come to gw2 precisely because it didn’t have raiding. There needs to be an alternative plan to acquire legendary armor. Maybe a pvp track that rewards you with the necessary materials to craft the legendary armor.

The great thing about guild wars 2 is that you can play the content you like. Like hard content? Raid. Like easy or medium tier content? Dungeons, fractals, or open world.

Don’t despair when anet makes content you don’t like. They can’t cater to everyone simultaneously. Play the content you like. No one is forcing you to raid.

As for legendary armor, it’s basically a skin. It has the same stats as ascended. Are you upset that you are “forced” to pvp or fractals for a legendary backpiece? That you are “forced” to map complete for a legendary weapon? If you don’t like the content, don’t do it. Get exotic or ascended, in the way you like to play.

I like raids. Some people don’t. I don’t like WvW. Some people do. I don’t ask anet to stop building wvw because I personally don’t enjoy it.

Manthas.6234:

Coulter.2315:

1) Join a raid guild (remember you can be member of multiple guilds), I log in at raid time and access it within a few minutes.
2) No one can control the rate at which you feel you achieve things.
3) I have no idea what to say to this, it demands the entire game is balanced around your feelings (are you asking nothing that you cannot achieve can exist??)
4) I completely understand this point, I was surprised how late it seems LS3 is coming (from the AMA). I am looking forward to some more content too, but the raid has been brilliant so give plenty of thumbs up to the raid team at Anet.
5) I agree again.

I think your dissatisfaction at no new content for you is causing you to want to drag content designed for others to you, I understand the feeling but it should be fought against. I would suggest starting positive threads asking for more content designed for you rather than trying to warp raids.

Wing 2 was excellent btw (2nd boss a bit meh) and I really appreciate what Anet have done with the raid in general, lots of variety in mechanics and cannot wait for more (such excitement on TS after seeing a teaser of what might be next).

You see, the thing is, I don’t want to change my playstyle and as I mentioned before, core GW2 used to satisfy all of my needs. I view raids as an invader to the playstyle I adore and I believe they don’t have a place in GW2 as they are at the moment.

You could say, that I am selfish perhaps. But from my point of view, raids came here to my perfect game and messed it up.

To be honest, yes it seems selfish. Raids are only a small part of GW2, and it has, relative to other content, a small developer footprint. Continue doing the content you enjoy. Don’t despair when others enjoy content you don’t like.

Hopefully, the drought of new content will end soon.

Dav.9152:

This game has many facets that are broken down in very separate camps, like those who only WvW, only PvP, only PvE. Those who primarily run dungeons/fractals, those who primarily run open-world content. Solo players and group players. Raiders and non-Raiders. In each category there’s going to be something that you only get by doing that particular content, and usually it’s just achievements or exclusive skins.

In this case they’re now attaching “Legendary” to what would otherwise be a raiding-exclusive skin, but “Legendary” is something desirable by all categories of players. So everyone wants this available to his or her own category of playing.

The only way to quiet the non-raiding masses is to either remove the legendary status from the raiding skin so it’s just another skin (and likely upset your hardcore players), or to add a second set of Legendary armor that is available outside of raids so non-raiders can “have theirs too.” This lets the raiders keep their exclusive skin but non-raiders also get their fancy “Legendary” status.

For those without time to commit to group content or lengthy instances, expectations for obtaining legendary armor is equal to current options for obtaining legendary weapons – given enough time and gold it can be pieced together.

I would not be opposed to alternate methods to obtain legendary armor.

That said, it’s a bit misleading to say you can play how you want to get the legendary armor. Outside of buying it off the TP, you must do map completion for legendary weapons. For the old ones, you must do dungeons or a dungeon reward track. Currently, the only way to get a legendary backpiece is pvp. There is some content you can’t avoid.

As for time required, it takes a lot of hours to get a legendary. If you can put in that time, you have time enough to raid.

As for stats, they have the same stats as ascended. Which you can get in any game mode. Personally, I don’t find the stat swapping all that useful.

Manthas.6234:

Absurdo.8309:

Manthas.6234:

Absurdo.8309:

Youd.1375:

Instead of nitpicking on moot points, let’s look at some real things.

1. This discussion exists, and it’s big.
2. There’s a growing “us vs them” mentality.

Doesn’t matter in which camp you are, or if you’re neutral – the problem exists no matter how you try to argue for or against it. So let’s talk about solutions instead of arguing about who’s right or wrong.

The solution that raiders propose is to get better at raids. And that, in my opinion, is the correct answer. I believe anyone, with enough practice, can beat the raids.

The problem is that the other side refuses. So we are at an impasse.

Can you imagine how ridiculous the non-raiders would sound if their reasoning was applied to legendary weapons? Consider the world completion requirement. Someone says: “I hate open world pve. It takes too much time to complete maps, and it’s boring.” Your response would be: “Then maybe you shouldn’t be going for a legendary weapon!”

The same reasoning applies here. If you can’t put in the time to learn raids, then maybe you shouldn’t be going for legendary armor.

And there is no statistical advantage to legendary armor. You can have the best in slot gear without raiding.

Getting better at raids has nothing to do with the issue presented. Wasting time while waiting for your raid group to fill in, only to get interrupted by your loving family, is more of the problem presented here. Your solution?

If you can’t find an hour to raid in a week, then perhaps it’s not for you. I would suggest fractals or dungeons.

Not everyone has the same scheduling problems as you. And it’s ok if you can’t commit the time to raid. GW2 offers a variety of content for a variety of players. Please don’t ask that all content cater to your particular situation.

A few points:

• pre HoT I used to be able to access every game mode in a matter of minutes;
• every minute in those game modes felt like I am achieving something;
• feeling that I could achieve everything is important;
• for the past 5 month no new content except raid wings;
• getting new things to do is important.

I think your problem is the general drought of content rather than raids in particular.

With raids, even failures can be progress. You get shards. And you hopefully learn something each time.

Vayne.8563:

Absurdo.8309:

Vayne.8563:

Absurdo.8309:

Youd.1375:

Instead of nitpicking on moot points, let’s look at some real things.

1. This discussion exists, and it’s big.
2. There’s a growing “us vs them” mentality.

Doesn’t matter in which camp you are, or if you’re neutral – the problem exists no matter how you try to argue for or against it. So let’s talk about solutions instead of arguing about who’s right or wrong.

The solution that raiders propose is to get better at raids. And that, in my opinion, is the correct answer. I believe anyone, with enough practice, can beat the raids.

The problem is that the other side refuses. So we are at an impasse.

Can you imagine how ridiculous the non-raiders would sound if their reasoning was applied to legendary weapons? Consider the world completion requirement. Someone says: “I hate open world pve. It takes too much time to complete maps, and it’s boring.” Your response would be: “Then maybe you shouldn’t be going for a legendary weapon!”

The same reasoning applies here. If you can’t put in the time to learn raids, then maybe you shouldn’t be going for legendary armor.

And there is no statistical advantage to legendary armor. You can have the best in slot gear without raiding.

What about someone who doesn’t have enough time?

I would quote myself above:

If you can’t find an hour to raid in a week, then perhaps it’s not for you. I would suggest fractals or dungeons.

Not everyone has the same scheduling problems as you. And it’s ok if you can’t commit the time to raid. GW2 offers a variety of content for a variety of players. Please don’t ask that all content cater to your particular situation.

And if that is too much, perhaps legendary armor isn’t for you. It took me a year to complete my first legendary weapon. It’ll take me three or four seasons to get the pvp legendary. That’s the time frame I would consider appropriate for legendary armor too.

See my problem isn’t finding an hour a week. It’s easy for me to find an hour…but not necessarily the same hour. I can’t guarantee a schedule for anything, so everything has to be pretty much spontaneous. That’s why this game has worked for me.

If I want to jump into a dungeon or Fractal with the guild, I’m quite easily replaced and nothing is lost. It really doesn’t work that way with raids. It requires more of a commitment and I can’t give it.

The point is, there are people who raided in other games who came here specifically because the game didn’t have raids and they could get the best stuff without raiding. Now that’s gone.

I’m not in a scheduled raid group. I pug or grab random people from the guild every time. Like you, I don’t want to commit to the same hour each week.

emikochan.8504:

I just hope Colin’s promise of “no higher gear than ascended” is upheld.

I’m not sure how auras have to do with gear tiers.

Personally, I agree that a slider or check box would be the ideal option. Let players decide how much clutter they want. Although, recently playing ele in pvp, I can understand why they did it. There are a lot of auras flying around.

Vayne.8563:

Absurdo.8309:

Youd.1375:

Instead of nitpicking on moot points, let’s look at some real things.

1. This discussion exists, and it’s big.
2. There’s a growing “us vs them” mentality.

Doesn’t matter in which camp you are, or if you’re neutral – the problem exists no matter how you try to argue for or against it. So let’s talk about solutions instead of arguing about who’s right or wrong.

The solution that raiders propose is to get better at raids. And that, in my opinion, is the correct answer. I believe anyone, with enough practice, can beat the raids.

The problem is that the other side refuses. So we are at an impasse.

Can you imagine how ridiculous the non-raiders would sound if their reasoning was applied to legendary weapons? Consider the world completion requirement. Someone says: “I hate open world pve. It takes too much time to complete maps, and it’s boring.” Your response would be: “Then maybe you shouldn’t be going for a legendary weapon!”

The same reasoning applies here. If you can’t put in the time to learn raids, then maybe you shouldn’t be going for legendary armor.

And there is no statistical advantage to legendary armor. You can have the best in slot gear without raiding.

What about someone who doesn’t have enough time?

I would quote myself above:

If you can’t find an hour to raid in a week, then perhaps it’s not for you. I would suggest fractals or dungeons.

Not everyone has the same scheduling problems as you. And it’s ok if you can’t commit the time to raid. GW2 offers a variety of content for a variety of players. Please don’t ask that all content cater to your particular situation.

And if that is too much, perhaps legendary armor isn’t for you. It took me a year to complete my first legendary weapon. It’ll take me three or four seasons to get the pvp legendary. That’s the time frame I would consider appropriate for legendary armor too.

Heibi.4251:

Swagger.1459:

Absurdo.8309:

Swagger.1459:

Don’t worry people, we will all be happy with difficulty settings someday.

If you need easier content, you have the rest of the game to enjoy. You can dungeon or fractals. I’d rather have developer resources go to that content. I don’t want raid resources tied up in easy modes.

I see the same echo chamber calling for easy mode raids. Please don’t assume everyone would be happy with it, especially given the responses here.

It’s ok to have content you don’t enjoy. Let raiders have content that they like. You have the rest of the game. Focus on the content you enjoy playing.

Don’t worry, with difficulty setting we can have ultra hard modes too!

It’s amazing that all these people who come in and berate and complain that we don’t need difficulty levels don’t seem to understand that it will not affect them in any way.

I’ll put this in their own words but reversing the argument – “If easier content is too easy for you go play the harder content.” And of course in their other words – “I don’t want game resources tied up creating ultra hard content for a small percentage of the game population.”

Look at what you’re saying and use logic. You’re acting like your toys will be taken away if an easier mode for less skilled players to learn and be successful(thus being able to play the harder content eventually) is created.

I think you misunderstand the argument. I agree that easy mode raids would not affect the current iteration of raids. Rather, they would affect the pace that future raids are released.

I see easy mode raids as unnecessary. If you want easier content, you have it. Fractals, dungeons, open world.

There was no easy mode arah. Easy mode liadri. Because there was always alternatives for players who couldn’t handle that type of content. And there still is.

The raid team is small compared to the rest of the game. They have a lot of visibility now because they are actually releasing content. I actually think the raid discontent stems from the lack of new fractals, dungeons, or maps. But there are teams working on them. And they are much larger than the raid team.

Manthas.6234:

Absurdo.8309:

Youd.1375:

Instead of nitpicking on moot points, let’s look at some real things.

1. This discussion exists, and it’s big.
2. There’s a growing “us vs them” mentality.

Doesn’t matter in which camp you are, or if you’re neutral – the problem exists no matter how you try to argue for or against it. So let’s talk about solutions instead of arguing about who’s right or wrong.

The solution that raiders propose is to get better at raids. And that, in my opinion, is the correct answer. I believe anyone, with enough practice, can beat the raids.

The problem is that the other side refuses. So we are at an impasse.

Can you imagine how ridiculous the non-raiders would sound if their reasoning was applied to legendary weapons? Consider the world completion requirement. Someone says: “I hate open world pve. It takes too much time to complete maps, and it’s boring.” Your response would be: “Then maybe you shouldn’t be going for a legendary weapon!”

The same reasoning applies here. If you can’t put in the time to learn raids, then maybe you shouldn’t be going for legendary armor.

And there is no statistical advantage to legendary armor. You can have the best in slot gear without raiding.

Getting better at raids has nothing to do with the issue presented. Wasting time while waiting for your raid group to fill in, only to get interrupted by your loving family, is more of the problem presented here. Your solution?

If you can’t find an hour to raid in a week, then perhaps it’s not for you. I would suggest fractals or dungeons.

Not everyone has the same scheduling problems as you. And it’s ok if you can’t commit the time to raid. GW2 offers a variety of content for a variety of players. Please don’t ask that all content cater to your particular situation.

Swagger.1459:

Absurdo.8309:

Swagger.1459:

Don’t worry people, we will all be happy with difficulty settings someday.

If you need easier content, you have the rest of the game to enjoy. You can dungeon or fractals. I’d rather have developer resources go to that content. I don’t want raid resources tied up in easy modes.

I see the same echo chamber calling for easy mode raids. Please don’t assume everyone would be happy with it, especially given the responses here.

It’s ok to have content you don’t enjoy. Let raiders have content that they like. You have the rest of the game. Focus on the content you enjoy playing.

Don’t worry, with difficulty setting we can have ultra hard modes too!

Content can usually become harder by low manning it. And wing 2 offers achievements for beating the boss in a harder way.

Most raiders aren’t concerned about hard modes. For me personally, I’m concerned with a waste of resources, as there’s already easy and medium tier content (dungeons, fractals, world bosses, map metas)

Youd.1375:

Instead of nitpicking on moot points, let’s look at some real things.

1. This discussion exists, and it’s big.
2. There’s a growing “us vs them” mentality.

Doesn’t matter in which camp you are, or if you’re neutral – the problem exists no matter how you try to argue for or against it. So let’s talk about solutions instead of arguing about who’s right or wrong.

The solution that raiders propose is to get better at raids. And that, in my opinion, is the correct answer. I believe anyone, with enough practice, can beat the raids.

The problem is that the other side refuses. So we are at an impasse.

Can you imagine how ridiculous the non-raiders would sound if their reasoning was applied to legendary weapons? Consider the world completion requirement. Someone says: “I hate open world pve. It takes too much time to complete maps, and it’s boring.” Your response would be: “Then maybe you shouldn’t be going for a legendary weapon!”

The same reasoning applies here. If you can’t put in the time to learn raids, then maybe you shouldn’t be going for legendary armor.

And there is no statistical advantage to legendary armor. You can have the best in slot gear without raiding.

Swagger.1459:

Don’t worry people, we will all be happy with difficulty settings someday.

If you need easier content, you have the rest of the game to enjoy. You can dungeon or fractals. I’d rather have developer resources go to that content. I don’t want raid resources tied up in easy modes.

I see the same echo chamber calling for easy mode raids. Please don’t assume everyone would be happy with it, especially given the responses here.

It’s ok to have content you don’t enjoy. Let raiders have content that they like. You have the rest of the game. Focus on the content you enjoy playing.

Astralporing.1957:

Absurdo.8309:

Ohoni.6057:

I don’t enjoy raids but I don’t see how killing off raids would make stuff I like doing any more fun. I’d rather they keep the 4 people working on raid on the actual raid than anything else.

Sure, and nobody’s talking about doing anything to change the current raids or the current raid team’s resources in any significant amount. My assertion is that these changes would only take a few man-hours to complete per raid, and would be negligible no matter who works on that. If that turns out to be incorrect, if it would take a day or more of solid work to implement, then I would expect people outside the existing raid team to be assigned to that project.

This is false, based on what Gaile has said on the subject.

The post

I think she was replying to you. To be honest, it makes your replies not seem to be in good faith.

Nah, Gaile admitted that it was a general warning that wasn’t really about that specific case (notice, that in the same post she admits she really doesn’t know yet how it would be for the discussed case). And even then, the discussion she was answering to was about a difficulty setting for the whole game (something like gw1 easy/hard mode), which is indeed harder and more complex problem than what was proposed here.

Most of what Ohoni is asking for should indeed be easy to implement. I do see a few things that might require more work, though (gorse updrafts mechanic that serves as a sort of secondary encounter timer, for example).

Again, I disagree. The context of the post was about raids. Even if it wasn’t, Gaile warned against estimating developer time for certain features. Which is what you are doing.

Here is the quote:

Gaile Gray.6029:

Ohoni.6057:

Here’s one reason: The developers have limited time and resources.

Yeah, we’ve covered this one. The time and resources it would take to implement something like this would be negligible, not remotely enough to counterbalance the benefits it would bring.

At this point, I need to interject. I am familiar with the process of changing to a multi-modality system of game presentation, having written about it long ago, when I was a journalist writing about another company and another game. For that game, too, players said “No big deal.” And they were absolutely wrong. They said, “Just tweak a few stats, lower a few spawns, and voila, you’ve got it!” No, that’s not how it worked. And that’s not how I think it would work for Guild Wars 2.

I will ask about this, and if we’re prepared to say something official, one of us will do so. But it’s counterproductive to have a discussion head down the path of misinformation and what seems to be a growing error in assumption. With all due respect, unless you’re a developer for GW2 you are not qualified to make a statement about the time needed, difficulty involved, or feasibility of such a feature.

You’re welcome to discuss the situation, and we appreciate that you want to do that. We welcome the conversation! But please participate by sharing what you’d like to see, and why, and don’t be misled by individual, external assumptions about the feasibility or practicality of such a request.

Swagger.1459:

Absurdo.8309:

Raids are opt in content. I agree with the comments above — there’s plenty to do if you’re looking for easier gameplay.

Swagger.1459:

Also, raids were very obviously rushed out the door so I guarantee the devs would have done things much differently given more time. Unfortunately, though, they are playing catchup now and we will just have to see how this content takes shape.

I would disagree with this. To the contrary, the bosses seem very polished. What do you find rushed?

A raid consists of more than just bosses, but ok, bosses that are pieced into the game are polished.

We only had 1 wing at launch, not an entire raid.

Promises of legendary armors without even a preview. Still no preview either.

Lfg channel should have been created at launch, but still nonexistent.

Minor thing, but not even a full compliment of white mantle weapons.

So let’s put the above into perspective…

Imagine if the devs only had Verdant Brink available to play at HoT launch. Then 5 months later they release Auric Basin. Then a few months after that Tangled Depths is released… Then finally Dragon’s Stand. Now take each zone release tied to legendary weapon progress steps without even a preview of said legendary weapons.

WvW received a single map unnecessarily, not a full wvw update because the rest is not ready…

Certain ascended stats to complete full sets are still not available.

The devs piece “things” together more than any mmo I have experienced, and raids are not handled any different. They devs play catchup a lot here and should work on dropping in fully created and feature/qol rich content instead.

Most/all of your complaints aren’t with the actual encounter. I would agree that things like the LFG tool would be a quality of life improvement.

But you seem to take issue with staggered release content. I don’t think your suggestions are aimed at the raid team. Seems to be more of a skin and armor thing. I’d rather have three polished bosses now, than have to wait for all the wings to be done.

Ohoni.6057:

I don’t enjoy raids but I don’t see how killing off raids would make stuff I like doing any more fun. I’d rather they keep the 4 people working on raid on the actual raid than anything else.

Sure, and nobody’s talking about doing anything to change the current raids or the current raid team’s resources in any significant amount. My assertion is that these changes would only take a few man-hours to complete per raid, and would be negligible no matter who works on that. If that turns out to be incorrect, if it would take a day or more of solid work to implement, then I would expect people outside the existing raid team to be assigned to that project.

This is false, based on what Gaile has said on the subject.

The post

I think she was replying to you. To be honest, it makes your replies not seem to be in good faith.

Ohoni.6057:

What is the difference in being “carried” by veterans and “carried” by easy mode? At least with harder content you are pushed to improve.

But the suggestions being offered are not genuinely attempting to help me or the problems I outlined, they are intended to make me stop complaining about something you all enjoy. You want to bring me to a place where I like the same things you like, when I keep telling you that the things you like are never going to be things that I like, because we have two completely different tastes in what constitutes an enjoyable gaming experience.

Let me give you an example, PvP. I hate PvP. I will never enjoy PvP. I’ve been playing PvP for the past few weeks because I want those wings. I’ve reached Sapphire in both seasons and am on track for Ruby this one. I still hate PvP. I always will. It is just not a game type that interests me on a base level in any way. I could play thousands more hours, I could become the very best PvPer in the game for all that it matters, I would still not enjoy it, so any efforts to make me “enjoy PvP for what it is” would be entirely pointless. Different people are different. Learn to accept this as a fact, and then move forward in life.

I think this is the crux of both sides. Different people enjoy different content. And that’s ok.

The difference is that raiders would rather see raid developers make new raids, rather than easy modes. I believe fractals and dungeons can cater to your desire for medium-tier content. There are supposedly developers working on this. And I think we can both agree that this content is long overdue.

It’s ok for players not to like all gw2 content. It’s ok for you not to like raids. But I don’t want to see raid resources hobbled up in easy modes.

@ Ohoni:

What is the difference in being “carried” by veterans and “carried” by easy mode? At least with harder content you are pushed to improve.

You are calling for raid nerfs when they are still relatively new. I pug wing 1 every week. It’s getting easier and easier. Because people are more experienced in the fights.

It’s not that I don’t care that you’re upset. It’s just that I think your suggestion is misguided. And I, as well as several others on this forum, have made various suggestions on how to improve. Consider it constructive criticism on your idea. When you dismiss these suggestions, or fail to address them, it de-legitimizes your position. It looks like you are arguing for the sake of arguing.

EcoRI.9273:

Absurdo.8309:

There is other content if you can’t find an hour to raid. Like you mentioned, fractals or dungeons. Other content on this game also requires a certain level of time commitment, like dragon stand.

Dungeons and fractals are not new content, I have done them enough. Dragon stand is on a timer and I can’t do it on most days because of it. So what does that mean? Basically I play guild wars 2 about once every 2 weeks when DS timer aligns with my schedule.

Just trying to point out that you have other options. Raids don’t necessarily need to conform to your schedule. I agree that new dungeons and fractals are long overdue.

There is other content if you can’t find an hour to raid. Like you mentioned, fractals or dungeons. Other content on this game also requires a certain level of time commitment, like dragon stand.

Ohoni.6057:

This does not matter. It does not matter that there is “something else to do,” what matters is whether the available tasks are ones the player wants to do. If the tasks that a player wants to do would be an easy mode raid, then an easy mode raid is what they want to do, suggest no substitutions and people will stop telling you that you’re completely missing the point.

It does matter. Some players want hard content. Others don’t. Luckily, you can choose what content to participate in. Want hard content? Raid. Want easy content? Open world. Want medium level content? Fractals or dungeons. You choose what to play.

Do you advocate for easy mode jumping puzzles because some players can’t do them? Easy mode arah? No, because there is other content to choose from. I’m not sure why you’re focused on raids.

Watch a YouTube video if you want to see what raids are like. But you have other content if you find raids too difficult. Please consider that raids are one of the few high level content in this game. I’d rather have the raid team focus on new raids, rather than easy mode. You should be advocating for more fractals and dungeons (which I would agree is overdue).

Full disclosure: I think raids are the best content in HOT. I’ve yet to see a good argument against them. Most seem to boil down to the same arguments:

1. It’s too hard. Answer: There is other pve content that can cater to your skill level. Try out dungeons, fractals, open world pve, or world bosses. It’s healthy for the game to provide for different skill levels.

2. I want the skins/minis/legendary armor. Answer: It’s ok for content to have exclusive rewards. And these rewards are just cosmetic. They provide no statistical advantage. As for legendary stat swapping, it is expensive to make a legendary and mostly useless. It’s much cheaper to experiment with exotic sets or even stat change ascended gear in the mystic forge. Personally, I’ve only stat changed my legendary weapons once.

3. I don’t like the raiding community. Answer: Then make your own group. Personally, I’ve found very few groups toxic or mean. But there is nothing stopping you from forming a group of like minded individuals.

4. I don’t have the time to raid. Answer: I’m not sure there’s much I can do about this one. Raids are weekly, so you have all week to find the time. But if you can’t, then you’re missing out on other content as well. Like dragon stand, the pvp ladder, or significant wvw encounters. I would suggest finding content in gw2 that fits your play schedule.

5. I want to experience the lore. Answer: Watch a YouTube video, or have someone open a finished instance for you. Speaking personally, I enjoy raids for the encounters, not for the lore.

6. I want to experience the mechanics. Answer: Then raid! The reason why most encounters are difficult is because of the cumulative effect of all the mechanics. But if you want low stress boss mechanics, try world bosses.

Obtena.7952:

I’m not really willing to get into a pedantic argument here because I don’t see how that makes or breaks any of the discussion here but to give you my personal opinion:

Legendary gear is BiS, not only because it has the highest stats in game, tied with Ascended, but because (if I understand correctly) it will have the ability to swap stats on the fly as well. That added function does make it better than Ascended, even if that function has questionable usefulness. If it doesn’t have that ability, then I’m inclined to agree with you … seems like it’s just a skin, which is rather questionable as a reward from the hardest content in the game.

Even if a person doesn’t consider Legendary gear BiS … Anet STILL never said players wouldn’t have to raid to get BiS gear.

I wouldn’t classify legendaries as best in slot. They have the same stats as ascended.

As for stat swapping, yes it’ll likely have that ability. But, for me personally, I’ve never found stat swapping on armor and weapons all that useful.

If you are serious about high end content, then you care about sigils and runes. And you can’t change those with legendary armor. And, if the meta changes then it is much cheaper to stat change through the mystic forge. You’ll still lose your runes and sigils, but ascended is much cheaper. And the pve meta, at least for stats, doesn’t change that often.

And I do think that makes the argument, because then all you’re missing is a skin. It’s ok to have skins tied to particular content.

Astraea.6075:

maddoctor.2738:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

To extend the life of a set of raids and satisfy both casuals and hard core raiders, maybe they could put in an ez mode form a raid cycle behind.

That is, once this set of raid wings is done and there is a new set of raids coming out, add the ez mode set then on the old raids for casuals to do and see the content, with suitably reduced rewards. Repeat with each new set of raid wings.

Yep. Exactly my thoughts. Unless of course they have some special plan to keep the older Raid wings relevant even after new ones appear, otherwise adding a reduced version when very few people are running them is a good choice.

No power creep from gear treadmill plus requirements for legendary armor means that older raids should remain relevant for longer than usual imo.

I agree. And the rewards are ok-ish or can be adjusted in the future.

Older content gets easier as players become more experienced with it. Remember dungeons and teq? Hard when it first came out, easy now. Don’t call for a nerf or easy mode so early. Wing 1 is already starting to become that easy mode.

Farming Flats.5370:

Ok .. i suppose that crafting 12 ( core ) + 1 HoT Legendary is not prestigious ?
Im the same boat as OP .. my guild is casual and mature guild .. we tried hard .. really hard .. but nop we can’t kill VG .. so im here with my 250 Magnetite shard earned only with wipes on VG. 2 weeks have passed since the last organised attempt , so i can only conclude that we dropped the ball on the Raids entirely.

I don’t want to pug , i don’t want to pay for Raid kills .. so this is it : I paid Hot Full price like everyone else and i will not see lore/content/reward that is added to the game….. never ever. A.net always provided different ways to obtain things , want a legendary backpack ? do PVP or do fractals if you don’t like to PVP so why it would be different for the legendary armor ?

You have plenty of options to raid that you are ignoring:

1. Have someone who is experienced with raids diagnose the problem with your guild group.
2. Join another guild to raid.
3. Join a learning run.

Legendary armor is just a skin. Are you upset that you’ll never get the pvp legendary? Are you upset that you’ll never get liadri? It’s OK to have skins tied to certain content in the game.

As for lore, I can tell you there’s not much there. But if you really care, ask someone to open a finished instance for you. Or watch a YouTube video.

Some problems in this game are design problems, and some are personal. This seems like a personal problem to me.

Raids are opt in content. I agree with the comments above — there’s plenty to do if you’re looking for easier gameplay.

Swagger.1459:

Also, raids were very obviously rushed out the door so I guarantee the devs would have done things much differently given more time. Unfortunately, though, they are playing catchup now and we will just have to see how this content takes shape.

I would disagree with this. To the contrary, the bosses seem very polished. What do you find rushed?

I agree, I raid every day and love it.

Vlad Morbius.1759:

I think there was no harm in adding raids other than the development lost in other areas, that being the case I don’t think it should continue to be a focus going forward at least not regularly especially considering the small percentage of people that play raids compared to the overall community base. Hell I’d have rather seen a new race than raids come in with HoT but now that they are done introducing new systems (their own words) they can concentrate on adding a lot more content, raid should be part of it but only based on the % of players that use it.

I think you may be overestimating the amount of developer resources put towards raids. In a somewhat recent reddit post, the developers stated that the raid team consisted of 4-5 people. Granted, I don’t know if that includes art and assets. But one wing every 3 months is a pretty good raid development cycle.

Sarrs.4831:

Absurdo.8309:

Raids are my favorite content in HOT. I don’t think they need an easy mode – just learn the fight. Wing 2 is hard right now because not everyone knows the encounters.

This is something that I don’t get. This raid content will never be made redundant by dev fiat in the way that raids in other games do. Why spoil it with the now-now-now attitude of easy mode fights when you have literally all the time in GW2 to learn it?

I agree – I think you may have misread me

The best thing you can do for yourself is gear multiple classes. That way, you can fill multiple roles in the encounter.

Like others have said, thieves provide solid dps, but they don’t have a particular role. Basically a leftover slot if everything else is accounted for. I personally recommend PS warrior. Most groups take 1-2 of them. But, again, having multiple classes increases your chances of filling particular roles.

Dungeons were hard when they first came out. People didn’t know what to do. But they learned, and dungeons became easy.

The same thing will happen to raids. Wing 1 is getting there. Wing 2 is hard right now because it’s new.

Learn the fight. It’s ok to have harder content in this game. Liadri was hard. Getting the pvp backpiece is hard. Raids are hard now. With practice, you can beat them. Don’t nerf something that is so new.

Balloons, like the quaggan mail carrier.

This post is the epitome of entitlement.

I’ll try to be constructive here, but the OP’s tone is very combative.

Gw2, and HOT, does not have a gear grind. Rather, it has skin grinds. And that’s great. Want to take a break for a couple of months? Your characters will be fine when you get back. They’ll still have good gear.

That said, people still need goals. For some, that’s pvp. For others, it’s a specialization weapon. You choose what content you want to play. And since the reward is a skin, you are not punished for avoiding content you hate.

You don’t need copious amounts of time to raid, once you get used to the fight. But if you don’t want to raid? That’s fine. All you miss are skins. And yes, legendary armor is a skin.

Pvp also has exclusive skins. I may not get them. But that’s ok. It’s just a skin.

Play what you find enjoyable. Almost everything you can do in this game has rewards.

Raids are my favorite content in HOT. I don’t think they need an easy mode – just learn the fight. Wing 2 is hard right now because not everyone knows the encounters.

I don’t think we need easy mode raiding.

I find the most difficult challenge in raids is organizing the party. Finding 10 people who know the fight and can play at the same time.

I don’t have a set group of people I raid with. I always form pug groups. My pug groups can consistently beat the wing 1 bosses.

I’ve yet to beat wing 2 in a pug. It’ll happen eventually. People don’t really know the fight, and I’m still experimenting to find optimal compositions.

I really think it is an experience issue. Learn the fight. The fights are hard when you have 10 new people. But it’s perfect when everyone knows what to do.

Like others have said, it’s likely they tested this wing in the last go around.

Also, if they did reinvite DnT, how would that affect you? Let ANET make their own decisions.

There are some rude responses that have the unfortunate position of being near the top. I know I’m looking forward to this second wing. Anyway, congratulations, and good luck on the following bosses.

This is an incredibly rude post.

I’m someone who pugs raids. I do them every week. I don’t want to commit to a certain raid time so I almost always pug them. I take it upon myself to organize the group.

I use insight requirements. For my first kill of the week, I’m not interested in teaching people. My goal is to complete them as smoothly as possible.

You are encouraging people to lie. There is nothing stopping a new player from starting a “learning run” or “some new people.” I join these later in the week. But I know what I’m getting into.

“Elitists” typically have a reputation for being rude and snobby. I’ve yet to see this in game. On the contrary, what I’ve seen is these self proclaimed “white knights” teach others how to lie. Instead of being constructive, you only encourage “elitists” to pug less and less.

Treat others with respect and you get respect in return. There is nothing but disrespect here.

I believe this bug has been in the game since HOT, but has become more apparent recently with the fall of condi warrior.

When there are too many necro minions on the field, Sabetha no longer targets the player furthest away. Instead, she’ll target one of the minions in melee range. I’ve found that 2 lich form minion summons is enough to trigger the bug.

For now, the work-around appears to be to only use the lich form skill once, at the beginning of the fight.

There are several fundamental problems with fractals that severely impact its long-term health. I’m worried that Anet will proclaim “mission accomplished” after the next iteration, and not touch fractals for another 2 years. Here’s a list of problems and suggestions:

1. There is no incentive to do high level fractals (AKA daily swamp/duo)

Once you beat the hard high level fractals, there is no long term incentive to go back. It’s more time effective to do daily swamp/duo.

Suggestion: Make the fractal master achievements repeatable. That provides a continuing incentive to repeat the longer fractals in the months/years down the road. I’m even OK if the repeated achievements gave the current rewards. (Thus, providing a non-RNG method to get golden weapons).

Suggestion: Provide a 50+ daily fractal. The daily 51-100 tier is most commonly accomplished with triple swamp.

Suggestion: Provide better rewards for longer fractals. Ideally, the reward would dynamically scale based on the number of players who complete that fractal each day/week. Thus, the less played fractals would get better rewards. (Many players also suggested this system for dungeon rewards as well).

2. Most mistlocks are not fun. Rather, they seem like a clumsy attempt to break the “zerker meta” (where really, most reinforce the need for damage). Here’s a breakdown of some of the worst offenders:

• No Pain, No Gain (enemies receive boons on crit) – Probably the worst offender, since there is no internal cooldown on this ability. The result is that most enemies end up with all the boons. Most power and condition builds incorporate critical hits. Additionally, there is almost no counter-play, since attempts to strip boons may result in more criticals, and the enemies reapply them too quickly. 100% protection is pretty painful here.

Suggestion: Replace this mistlock with something else.

Suggestion: An alternative could be a pulsing boon on all enemies, not tied to criticals but on a timer, similar to the blue vale guardian. That provides counter-play with boon strips, and doesn’t shut out most builds.

Suggestion: Increase the internal cooldown.

• Boon fumbler (lose boons on dodge) – I’m not sure why Anet would want to discourage one of the most unique combat mechanics in their game. It seems like a clumsy attempt to encourage tankier builds. But since the rework, even glassy builds can take most hits without a problem. So really it’s still dps, just don’t dodge.

Suggestion: Replace this mistlock with something else.

Suggestion: If you want to encourage more skillful dodging, perhaps reduce endurance gain, or increase the endurance used per dodge.

• Sluggish, Afflicted, and Boon Thieves – I am “meh” about these mistlocks. The counter-play is really don’t get hit, or bring a condition clear. Doesn’t really add anything to most fractals (with the exception of Thaumanova Reactor).

• Last Laugh (enemies explode when killed) – I actually like this one, because it requires you to dodge/invuln/stability/aegis as you kill an enemy. Doesn’t really add anything to fractals like Bloomhunger though.

3. The high level fractals are just high HP sponges

I’m sure most players would prefer intense, shorter fights, as opposed to long, boring ones. The high level fractals don’t really provide an increase in difficulty, but an increase in time.

Suggestion: Give the high level fractals unique mechanics (and get rid of the HP sponge). Some of the low level fractals already have these unique mechanics, such as Mai Trin stripping more stacks in her electric field, or not requiring batteries on the fan for Old Tom. The mechanics would provide the ramp up in difficulty, not HP. Here are some napkin suggestions (with a common theme):

Examples: Fight Mossman and Bloomhunger at the same time. Fight the Dredge Powersuit and the Ice Elemental at the same time. Fight the berserk molten duo at the same time.

4. There’s no word on when Anet will add new fractals

We’ve had no new fractals in two years, and only one new fractal with completely new content. Some of them are starting to get a bit stale. I’m also not sure if there is a separate “Raid team” and “Fractal team.”

I would also note that the static fractal schedule does not provide an intuitive way to add new fractals. However, with repeatable fractal master achievements, shuffling the static schedule every couple of months would not be the worst thing in the world. If the schedule gets easier, then both veterans and novices benefit because the achievement is repeatable.

TL;DR: Fractal long-term health is not looking good. But here’s some suggestions to make fractals viable over the next few months and years.

(Crosspost to reddit)

I’m not sure I understand. Didn’t ANET announce they were testing? Didn’t the reddit post say they were not claiming world’s first?

I think this is my first time posting on the forums. I realize that many post here because they a have strong opinion about the game, positive or negative. I count myself included in that generalization.

I think this is a terrible change for the dungeon community. Dungeons have some of the most invigorating combat in the game. It really allows the unique mechanics of the game to shine. Open world — silverwastes, dry top, simple map completion, and others — do not allow for some of the unique tactics available in dungeons.

Plus, many find dungeons just fun to play.

It’s clear from your blog post that you want to reduce the gold reward and de-incentivize dungeons. Some dungeons are already not “worth it” to run – SE and HOTW paths 2, for example. And all the story modes. That’s a shame.

I’ve never really understood moving players away from game play they find fun. I mean, that’s the point of a game. And there’s so much content out there that is underutilized. And nerfing the rewards will shrink this game mode even further.

I somewhat understand the reasoning behind nerfing a gold influx into the game. OK. But please consider tuning dungeons so they give more materials, tokens, something. Already, most dungeoneers do not compete gold wise with a silverwastes chest farm. I’d rather get my gold from doing I find something fun, not soul-crushing.

I’m not sure if this decision is already a done-deal, or there is room for some maneuvering. If there is, please count me as a dungeon supporter.

Thanks.

Thanks! The warhorn is a super warhorn from SAB. Each color (blue, green, and yellow) has a unique sound.