(edited by Absurdo.8309)
0) Prepare to wait more than 2 hours without doing anything at all. It is harder than kill the boss.
I pug groups every week, and this is not the case. I also frequently start my own pug groups. They fill pretty quickly.
I can’t play all of them if you add a hard gear check. I’d need to spend even more time (and money) to gear them all and have them ready for the Raid. We are not talking about one or two characters, more like 9.
.And so to be able to raid with all 9, you would have to do what is necessary, and gear them up.
I second STIHL’s proposal. If these “raiders” are going to oppose difficulty settings and the like, then there absolutely needs to be a hard gear check, instead to prevent these threads in the future. If people aren’t willing to put in the work to gear their characters, then they clearly don’t actually want to raid. That is what all the raiders have been saying after all. To “put in the work” to be “worthy” of raids.
So, let’s have a hard gear check and maddoctor can put in the work to gear his nine characters.
None of us need care that it makes it harder for him to raid, since he doesn’t care that the current setup makes it hard for others to raid. It’s a perfectly fair and valid proposal for STIHL to raise. Kudos to them.
There’s no need to punish players for liking content. It makes your position look petty.
In my mind, there are two real legitimate arguments against easy mode raids.
The first is that it would be a waste of developer resources. As we are all now painfully aware, anet seems to have a problem regularly producing content. And the type of content easy mode raiders want is already in the game — dungeons, fractals, world bosses, open world. Raids fill a niche for hard pve content. We don’t need easy mode because that niche is already filled.
The second is a distrust in the ability to balance rewards. This argument varies slightly on where on the spectrum the easy mode raider is at in terms of rewards — it varies from none to full rewards. At none, we go back to argument one – it would be a waste in developer resources to make a mode with little to no replayability. If we give rewards to easy mode raids, well, anet does not have the best track record for balancing rewards in instanced content. The reward in fractals are hilariously imbalanced, in that everyone runs swamp. The rewards for dungeon paths were imbalanced, in that no one would run paths like SE p2, and, after the dungeon nerf, no one really runs dungeons at all. Doesn’t really inspire confidence.
A sub-argument here is that raids have exclusive rewards, in minis, skins, and legendary armor. I won’t spend too much time justifying exclusive skins and minis, because a part of guild wars 2 endgame is all about skins, and game modes have exclusive skins as well. The real fight is about legendary armor.
So the initial response is that legendaries have the same stats as ascended. And that’s a powerful response, because it means raids are not required to get the most powerful gear in the game. But then what about stat changing? And the response is: what about it? You can change ascended stats in the mystic forge. And stat changing is mostly useless anyway, because you can’t change sigils and runes.
So it’s mostly a prestige item. It shows that you’ve invested time in Guild Wars 2 — whether it through pve (weapons), pvp or fractals (backpiece), or raids (armor).
And most raiders aren’t against alternate ways to get legendary armor (eventually). They’d just rather not see their accomplishments diminished. As I’m sure pvp’ers wouldn’t want every ruby t1 player to easily get the legendary backpiece.
So, in summary there are three main arguments against easy modes: 1) it’s a waste of developer resources 2) rewards likely won’t be balanced, and 3) it’s ok to have legendary armor as a prestige award.
Let’s try to focus the arguments here.
I would argue that Arah 3 months after release had the same difficulty as raids do currently.
People keep saying “dungeons used to be hard, but then people learned to play them and now they’re easier because of that.”
On the face of that, it is true, but not in a way that applies linearly to raids. For one thing, early on, players did not know how to play the game. They did not understand various synergies of basic gameplay mechanics and abilities. It took many months for players to fully understand what they were capable of, and once they did, content became easier.
That is a non-factor here, since we’ve all had plenty of time to learn how to play the game in a general sense, how to use each classes’ abilities. It is unlikely that we will see any great revelations along those lines, so that is one element on which raids will not become automatically easier over time.
Then there’s the fact that the game did have power creep over that first year. Early dungeons often had people going in at minimum level rather than at 80, in armor that includes some rares rather than full exotic, and then of course they started adding Ascended gear into the mix. A team with full exotic and several Ascended pieces in it would be much more successful than one with a mix of rares and exotics, even assuming equal skill.
Now, will there be new tactics developed to make these bosses easier? Perhaps, but at this point I doubt there will be any major revelations that haven’t already been worked out. The raids might become slightly easier over time, especially for true pugs, since the average level of encounter-specific experience will rise, but in practical terms they really won’t get that much easier on their own.
All content requires a certain minimum skill level to complete. Yes, the bar for raids is higher than most other content. But I don’t think that’s a bad thing. It’s good to have goals to strive for.
This is not a goal that most players want to strive for. They can either pass it, or not pass it, there is no try. I wish you could understand that. If they added easy mode, players who want to “strive” for that difficult bar could always continue to do so. The only difference easy mode would bring is that players who DON’T want to strive for that bar aren’t required to.
Yes, there was some power creep, but that’s not why it got easier, at least in my experience. Otherwise, you wouldn’t see people buying arah. It got easier because people knew what to do. And that’s exactly what I’m seeing with raids. The first couple of weeks with wing 1 were difficult. Now, wing 1 is a cakewalk (for geared and experienced players). I full clear with pugs in about 2 hours. I’m starting to see the same with sloth. I wasn’t able to beat it the first week in pugs, but I did in week 2, and this week as well.
I completely understand that not everyone strives for difficult content. Great! There’s plenty of not difficult content to do. That doesn’t mean that every single piece of difficult content gets an easy mode. Especially when it’s unclear whether the content will remain difficult in the long run.
Arah has more story and lore, and there’s no easy mode there. Same with the other dungeons.
It’s also far more achievable than the current raid wings.
Obviously, raids fill a different niche than dungeon and fractals. Yes, they are harder and require more organization. That doesn’t mean we need an easy mode.
So the “point” you are making is that yes, raids are harder than other content, but that other content does not need an easy mode, so neither does raids? That’s silly. Raids need an easy mode because it is harder than that other content. The entire point of an easy mode is to bring the difficulty wall a bit closer to the previous content. And it’s not like they haven’t included “easy modes” before, SAB had three difficulties, Fractals has 3-5 different difficulties for each map, many Story chapters have two difficulty modes, etc.
Raids might not require an easy mode for you, but other players are reporting that they would benefit from an easy mode, so who are you to tell them they are wrong?
I would argue that Arah 3 months after release had the same difficulty as raids do currently. And I don’t think pugs, trying it for the first time, could beat it after a couple of tries, which seems to be the difficulty level you want for easy mode. Heck, people still bought arah runs 3 years after release. It was either too hard for them or took too long to complete.
Yes, fractals have scalable difficulty. That’s the gimmick in fractals. It was designed that way, and is unique in that respect. Other content was not designed that way. And the rewards for fractals are not balanced, as everyone just runs swamp, duo, and daily. Doesn’t really give me confidence anet could balance rewards for easy mode raids.
I know we disagree on first principles on this issue. You think that all content should be beatable by the lowest common denominator. I think designing easy modes for all content is a waste of developer resources, as there is tons of easy content to enjoy.
All content requires a certain minimum skill level to complete. Yes, the bar for raids is higher than most other content. But I don’t think that’s a bad thing. It’s good to have goals to strive for. For some, it’s beating difficult content. And if you can’t cross that bar, you can still have fun in GW2. There’s plenty of content for all skill levels.
I know that I’ll probably never reach legendary in pvp. But I don’t ask anet to lower that bar just for me. Others find that challenge fun. I let them have their fun. It seems selfish to demand that all content be beatable at my skill level.
(edited by Absurdo.8309)
This is my argument. It’s not like any other requirement for anything else in the game, because raids DO take far far more effort than anything else in the game. And if you don’t enjoy them, then Anet is requiring you to not enjoy the game.
And yet I don’t enjoy them….ankitten ot required to do them.
You are not required to do them….unless you want legendary armor. This is the truth as we know it so far. There are people working on their legendary sets right now…I happen not to be one of them.
You don’t have to agree with I’m saying, but it doesn’t make it any less valid.
I’m working on it right now and I’m forced to “play” or “visit” the new PvE maps EVERY DAY. The raid part of the legendary armor seems to be the easier part. LOL.
But you aren’t forced to be working on them.
I read this as a tongue in cheek reply to those who say they are “forced” to do raids. Especially with the “LOL” art the end.
I’m just sad that raids are obviously here to stay. That means a significant percentage of the development resources are being poured into the raids, which is a direct correlation to the percentage of how less frequently we get updates to the world content that this game was initially designed for.
This is false. There are 120 devs working on live game, 70 devs on expansion 2, and 30 devs on core teams that support both. In the 120 developer team, 5 developers work on raids, with some support from the 30-developer team (who also work on other stuff).
Source https://redd.it/48zlyd
How many topics need to be done about raids and legendary armour lol
This topic isn’t really about raids and legendary armor. It’s about the background some of us having coming to this game. Raids are certainly a part of that discussion and once people start attacking that one point, of course I’m going to defend it.
But this is more about people on the forum who come from different backgrounds slinging mud at each other without trying to understand where the other people come from.
I get why people like raids, I get why people like PvP. I also get why I don’t like either. This isn’t about just raids, or just PvP. And if people would stop attacking those smaller points, the thread would be about what I’d intended it to be about.
I don’t say you shouldn’t like raids, and I don’t say you shouldn’t like PvP. But Anet needs to understand too that some of us come here for very different reasons, and we want them to think about that when they make decisions moving forward that affect everyone.
The content drought that’s going on right now is really only a content drought if you don’t like PvP or you don’t like raiding. Otherwise, it’s not a content drought at all. And some people think we just just shut up and raid or shut up and PvP.
Well I’ve tried both. I’ve put hours into raids already, and haven’t really enjoyed it. And I’ve put hours into PvP, which I continue to do, because I can do it in small doses, but it’s beginning to sour me on the game as a whole. I’m not having fun.
But it’s not because I’m lazy. It’s not because I want to press 1 and win. And it’s not because I’m entitled. That’s the main thing I hope people take away from this thread.
I’m not having fun because I don’t enjoy those activities, and I know for a fact, I’m not alone. The idea that specific rewards are placed behind content I don’t enjoy is a sort of like adding insult to injury. In and of itself it’s not important.
But then my group of people went from getting upgrades every two weeks to getting upgrades four times a year and that’s a fairly big change.
Why is anyone surprised there’d be some sort of backlash?
In an attempt to be constructive, what do you actually want? What is your “list of demands?”
If you want more pve content, like living world, then I am 100% on board. If you want more map events, like the destruction of lions arch, then I’m 100% on board. This kind of content is way overdue.
I think you start to lose people when you ask for access or easier access to certain skins. That’s where “entitled” or “press 1 to receive loot” gets thrown around. Guild wars 2 end game rewards are all about skins, since there is no gear treadmill. Exclusive skins can serve as an adequate reward for content.
Every area of the game has some exclusive skins tied to it. Ambrite collection. Chak collection. Wvw armor. Guild armor. Fractal weapons. Glorious armor. Pvp backpiece. Christmas and Halloween skins. And more and more …
This could be the “problem” you’re railing against. But I haven’t seen this sort of backlash since raids. I truly think it’s the content drought. And I agree that’s a problem.
I’m not asking for EASIER anything. I’m asking for different. And again, if you add functionality it’s no longer just a skin and that’s a fact.
Sure I’d like more to do. And if I had stuff to do, this post probably wouldn’t have been made. But I don’t and it has.
There’s a very real perception from causal players that this game is moving in a direction they don’t like. I mean I’m not the first or only guy talking about this. Some are playing less, like me. Some are leaving.
But organizing 10 people to do something, or having to be there on a schedule was not something I signed up for when I bought this game and until now I haven’t needed to do that.
Now I do. The game has changed. It has become less casual to me. And that is a problem for me, whether you think I’m just asking for easy rewards or not.
If they continue to bang rewards behind raids, people will start to think this game isn’t for them, because they didn’t have that barrier before. People will become disenfranchised, fair or unfair.
I’m also on board with a different method to acquire (different) legendary armor. Eventually. Apparently legendary items take a long time to develop. Only 3 new weapons so far. Fractal legendary not complete. Raid legendary not complete. I’d rather have legendary armor behind raids, for the time being, than not have it at all. And I do think it’s a proper prestige award for the content. I know we disagree on the value of changing stats on legendaries. (Again, it’s mostly useless as long as runes and sigils are in play).
I also agree that 30 minute causal content is really lacking right now. I think this is where we find common ground. Sometimes, I don’t want to play for long periods of time. What are my choices? HOT map metas? Too long. Dungeons? Not really after the nerf. Fractals? A swamp snore fest. Really only pvp, which doesn’t help much for pve players.
Like you said, it’s ok for people to like raids, as I do. But I think it’s ok for raids to have exclusive rewards, including legendaries. I also think raids get a lot of unjustified flak, because they are very polished for the content they offer. I don’t think raids are endemic of the problem. The content drought is the problem.
Stacking in one place 99% is called hard? Granted Arah is not that easy but I never said anything about easy mode, not once. Don’t compare dungeon difficulty with raids. There are different mechanics and skills, most of all, time you need to spend and prep to get it done. Plus the size of a group.
Hell, if you compare dungeons with raids answer me this.
Why and for who were raids even created? You just said there are hard dungeons.
Sorry, I assumed you wanted an easy mode, as this thread is about difficulty settings.
I was responding to your argument about lore. Other hard content in this game has lore elements tied to it. (And, in my opinion, there’s not much lore in the raid wings, especially wing 1).
Obviously, raids fill a different niche than dungeon and fractals. Yes, they are harder and require more organization. That doesn’t mean we need an easy mode.
And, dungeons were hard towards the beginning of the game because no one knew what to do. Now they do. Raids are getting there. I consistently get full wing 1 kills in pugs. I beat sloth for the first time in a pug last week, and did it again yesterday. Bandit trio is the easiest raid boss. I’ve yet to beat matthias in a pug, but I know it’ll happen eventually.
How many topics need to be done about raids and legendary armour lol
This topic isn’t really about raids and legendary armor. It’s about the background some of us having coming to this game. Raids are certainly a part of that discussion and once people start attacking that one point, of course I’m going to defend it.
But this is more about people on the forum who come from different backgrounds slinging mud at each other without trying to understand where the other people come from.
I get why people like raids, I get why people like PvP. I also get why I don’t like either. This isn’t about just raids, or just PvP. And if people would stop attacking those smaller points, the thread would be about what I’d intended it to be about.
I don’t say you shouldn’t like raids, and I don’t say you shouldn’t like PvP. But Anet needs to understand too that some of us come here for very different reasons, and we want them to think about that when they make decisions moving forward that affect everyone.
The content drought that’s going on right now is really only a content drought if you don’t like PvP or you don’t like raiding. Otherwise, it’s not a content drought at all. And some people think we just just shut up and raid or shut up and PvP.
Well I’ve tried both. I’ve put hours into raids already, and haven’t really enjoyed it. And I’ve put hours into PvP, which I continue to do, because I can do it in small doses, but it’s beginning to sour me on the game as a whole. I’m not having fun.
But it’s not because I’m lazy. It’s not because I want to press 1 and win. And it’s not because I’m entitled. That’s the main thing I hope people take away from this thread.
I’m not having fun because I don’t enjoy those activities, and I know for a fact, I’m not alone. The idea that specific rewards are placed behind content I don’t enjoy is a sort of like adding insult to injury. In and of itself it’s not important.
But then my group of people went from getting upgrades every two weeks to getting upgrades four times a year and that’s a fairly big change.
Why is anyone surprised there’d be some sort of backlash?
In an attempt to be constructive, what do you actually want? What is your “list of demands?”
If you want more pve content, like living world, then I am 100% on board. If you want more map events, like the destruction of lions arch, then I’m 100% on board. This kind of content is way overdue.
I think you start to lose people when you ask for access or easier access to certain skins. That’s where “entitled” or “press 1 to receive loot” gets thrown around. Guild wars 2 end game rewards are all about skins, since there is no gear treadmill. Exclusive skins can serve as an adequate reward for content.
Every area of the game has some exclusive skins tied to it. Ambrite collection. Chak collection. Wvw armor. Guild armor. Fractal weapons. Glorious armor. Pvp backpiece. Christmas and Halloween skins. And more and more …
This could be the “problem” you’re railing against. But I haven’t seen this sort of backlash since raids. I truly think it’s the content drought. And I agree that’s a problem.
Ultimately, legendary items are a prestige skin with the same stats as ascended. Personally, I would be ok if, eventually, there’s an alternate method to get legendary armor. Just like, eventually, we’ll be able to get the legendary backpiece from fractals. But beating raids is a prestige accomplishment. And legendary armor is an appropriate prestige award.
And that’s the problem. I don’t see any prestige here. I just see people that like one type of gameplay being treated better than people that prefer to have fun in different ways.
The legendary armor is not really a mark of prestige. It’s a mark that raiders are Anet’s preferred players. That Anet thinks that a huge majority of players that are supporting this game financially are second category citizens.
And considering that those second category citizens were the original target group for this game, while the raids were something lot of the players escaped from, you can guess how many people take that message very, very badly.
You’re doing your side no favors by advancing this argument. Please explain how legendary items are not prestige, when they have the same stats as ascended, and generally require a large amount of effort to acquire.
You can only get the new legendary weapons through HOT maps. Does that make everyone else a second class citizen? You can only get the pvp legendary through pvp. Does that make everyone else a second class citizen? You can only the legendary fractal backpiece through fractals. Does that make everyone else a second class citizen?
I get that you’ve run out of things to do in this game. So you want to go for legendary armor. But, really, it is a prestige item. Don’t blame raids for the current content drought.
I took the word in an apostrophe and there is no mention of easy mode, not a single one, anywhere in my post and I’m not painting everyone bad. Like I said, a “bunch”
1. There were plenty of hard to get items and achievements from the start. I agree there are a lot of “I want this I want that” people. From my perspective the thing that should always be for everyone, is the story and lore.
2. Why do I have to use YouTube, when I paid for a game I like and want to experiance content myself.
3. I agree that this game should be for everyone. However there are these casuals that come and go because there is nothing for them to do. Achievements and doing Tarir 100 times for 4 months is not something that everyone likes to do.Anet will never please everyone, it’s impossible. What they can do is take all these feedback and try to make a change for better.
Arah has more story and lore, and there’s no easy mode there. Same with the other dungeons.
At some point in time, I do wonder when this discussion became about legendary armor, instead of about then nature of raiding in MMOs as a whole.
I think this quote by the OP started the discussion :
Does everyone deserve content for them. Sure they do. Does everyone deserve exclusive rewards just for their content that no one else can get because they’re looking for a different in game experience? That one I’m not so sure about.
Either way, I’m going to be posting less here, because raiders aren’t wrong for wanting focus on raids, PvPers aren’t wrong for wanting focus on PvP and people like me, we’re not wrong for not wanting to be driven into game modes that do not interest us just to get specific rewards.
The argument is that non raiders are not driven into raids because of legendary armor, as legendary armor is a prestige skin item. Rather, people like OP should complain about the content drought, which I agree is a problem. Not raids.
The OP’s post goes over so much more than just raid rewards, though. The discussion about legendary armor is distilling everything into its most extremes. Though I think that would be most easily solved just by making the armor pieces tradeable.
Oh, I agree. Raids were in the subtext of the OP though. And there’s this response by the OP (admittedly in a post where raids are called out). I personally think the content drought is the problem, not raids.
They didn’t push instanced content, they pushed open world content. That’s the point.
And this is still the case.
The raid team is less than 5% of the dev team. Raids are part of HoT and represent a small fraction of the expansion.
I agree with this. It doesn’t really have to do with what I’m talking about in my OP, though. This is simply a response to someone telling me why what I’m saying is essentially wrong. My argument isn’t that raids shouldn’t exist.
My argument is that specific rewards shouldn’t be locked behind them, as in an entire tier of gear, or functionality. They didn’t do it in Guild Wars 1, and I don’t really see the need to do this here.
It doesn’t matter if 1 person works on raids or 100, if people feel disenfranchised by having something in game that they simply can’t get without spending hours doing content they don’t like.
At some point in time, I do wonder when this discussion became about legendary armor, instead of about then nature of raiding in MMOs as a whole.
I think this quote by the OP started the discussion :
Does everyone deserve content for them. Sure they do. Does everyone deserve exclusive rewards just for their content that no one else can get because they’re looking for a different in game experience? That one I’m not so sure about.
Either way, I’m going to be posting less here, because raiders aren’t wrong for wanting focus on raids, PvPers aren’t wrong for wanting focus on PvP and people like me, we’re not wrong for not wanting to be driven into game modes that do not interest us just to get specific rewards.
The argument is that non raiders are not driven into raids because of legendary armor, as legendary armor is a prestige skin item. Rather, people like OP should complain about the content drought, which I agree is a problem. Not raids.
Well see, it’s a sinister set. Viper didn’t exist at the time, so it was the best for my condi damage build when I made it. Which sorta points out the problem with the “only having to do it once”, too, since what’s meta can and will change based on any new stat sets that get introduced, any balance patches that happen to buff or nerf whatever skill is doing the most or least damage at any given time, new elite specs, etc.
Somewhat OT but it would be a lot easier to gear appropriately for raids if we had a non cash shop option for getting our runes out of ascended stuff. I don’t have the gold to eat that cost every couple months and still work toward my other game goals.
Pugs really kick you for having Sinister gear instead of Viper?? WoW that’s a new level of stupid. But what profession are you using exactly, but it might be more about that then your gear. Just trying to help you out.
For example, if you say you are playing Reaper. It’s a popular profession in Wing 2, but not so much for wing 1. Engineer is popular in VG and a little at Slothazor and Gorsveval, but not really for Sabetha.
Each bosses vary by a lot, which is a good thing, but also mean that certain profession are better at some boss and less at other.
The way the post was phrased made it seem like a hypothetical problem, rather than a real one. I would also take someone in sinister. That said, it’s been 4 months since vipers came out, and the only barrier is gold.
Depend. If the raid legendary armor is the only legendary armor available in the game then I agree. If by the time they launch the 3rd wing, they add other legendary armor with different skin in other game mode like PvP, Open World or WvW, then I disagree because then only this particular legendary armor skin is locked behind raids, not the legendary armor as a gear.
Again, it’s EIGHTEEN legendaries. GW2 had eighteen non-underwater legendaries for three years, and now same amount is going to be raid-exclusive? Is there words “World of Warcraft” appeared somewhere in game title?
This argument is slightly disingenuous. We don’t know exactly how the collection will work, but the armor will likely be awarded as a set, not individually like weapons. The effort required to acquire legendary armor may be equivalent to one legendary weapon.
Would you say that there are more people raiding now than people doing dungeons before the reward nerf? I would highly doubt it. So the metrics might be a little self-serving.
How popular would raiding be without the carrot?
The carrot is pretty bad, if you raid just for gold. I sometimes spend more in food than I get back from the reward. The rewards are also only weekly, mitigating its farm-ability. I personally raid for the challenge, the skins, and the (low) chance for ascended gear.
If you want to make gold, silverwastes chest train wins every time.
I would be ok with this. But I don’t think our viewpoint is in vogue at the moment. People want prestige, and acquiring legendary armor through raids is a prestige event. I understand and am ok with this line of reasoning. Given that there’s no stat increase over ascended.
Also, the gorseval infusion is tradable, and people seem ok with it.
Skins and titles are prestige event, not gear. Making 18 different legendary pieces locked behind raids is beyond stupid and contradicts whole GW2 ideology.
Given that legendary has the same stats as ascended (and thus basically a skin), I do see them as prestige items. I don’t see how it contradicts gw2 ideology. Putting aside the trading post (which I agree with you), the original legendaries required world completion, dungeons, and wvw. The new legendaries require HOT map grinding. Doesn’t seem inconsistent that legendary armor requires raids.
Who cares about legendary armor? Just make is tradable like other legendaries, if it’s a debating point. Everyone will be happy.
I would be ok with this. But I don’t think our viewpoint is in vogue at the moment. People want prestige, and acquiring legendary armor through raids is a prestige event. I understand and am ok with this line of reasoning. Given that there’s no stat increase over ascended.
Also, the gorseval infusion is tradable, and people seem ok with it.
We both know that ascended and legendary have the same stats. So why do people really want legendaries?
Because, in the mind of players, they are better. Don’t try to deny it, seeing as you suffer from it yourself. By trying to defend legendary armor exclusivity to raids all you do is only help enforcing that view even more.
And, as i said before, if you really believed legendary and ascended is the same, you wouldn’t even bother to protest against nonraiders getting it.
I do not suffer from legendary mania. If I did, I would have more legendary weapons. I only have the ones whose skins I like (4 total, despite the gold and resources to make more).
I am not opposed to non raiders getting legendary armor. I’ll quote myself.
For the record, I would be ok with alternative methods for legendary armor. But I’m also ok if there’s only one way. Because, ultimately, legendaries are a prestige item with no stat advantage. And completing raids can show that prestige.
I just don’t think that raids should be changed to accomplish this goal, or that it should be a priority. It apparently takes a long time to develop a legendary collection. We’ve had only 3 new legendary weapons, and the fractal collection isn’t done yet. I’d rather these take priority.
And yet again, for the upteenth time, you fail to mention that NOBODY is forcing you to play ANY game mode you don’t like. And that invalidates your entire post in my eyes.
I’m sorry you’re not getting what I’m saying. I’m saying to progress in this game at this point, I pretty much have to do something I don’t enjoy. Obviously I can go level another character, but after over 30 characters probably not likely to happen.
The problem isn’t being forced to do content, so much as having very very little content available to me that advances me. If that’s okay for you, I’m actually happy for you.
Unfortunately it’s not okay for me.
Then take a short freaking break. Nobody is forcing you. You get nothing out of PvP or raids that you actually really need. You have played through all the content? Take a break, Guild Wars 2 was designed with that in mind. We are arguably in a content drought, that is of course a valid point of criticism, blaming it on PvP and raids is childish and a knee-jerk reaction.
The baseless and aimless whining (no, not constructive criticism, actual whining) on these forums never ceases to amaze me.
How is suggesting that giving people goals without forcing them into content that has a relatively narrow band of players non-constructive?
I’m saying there’s a way to make it so players like me have more to do, while still giving raiders a reward to show off. You may not agree with that, but that doesn’t make it non-constructive.
On the other hand, I’m not so sure labeling constructive crticism as non-constructive because you don’t personally agree with is particularly constructive either.
I’ve made my case. I believe it’s constructive. I believe it will help the game. I demonstrated why I feel the way I do and other people seem to agree with me. I’m not saying close down raids. I’m not saying don’t make raids. I am saying don’t lock a tier of gear behind one specific type of content that most people will never do. I don’t believe that’s good for the game.
If you disagree that’s perfectly okay. But that doesn’t make the suggestion non-constructive.
Because they are NOT forcing you! Your entire argument is based on something that is factually not true. And if it’s factually not true, it’s also not constructive in the slightest!
In your earnestness to invoke fact, you miss the entire argument.
It’s a fact that right now there isn’t anything in game I really want to do, so I don’t really want to log in at this time.
It’s a fact that I could take a break, but if I do, I might or might not come back at a later date. You might be happy for me to walk away for periods of time, I’m not sure Anet is as keen as you on the idea. And obviously I’m not really talking about me. We’re talking about players like me. Not everyone comes back.
It’s a fact that if I had something to work for like legendary armor, I’d work for it, as long as I didn’t have to devote huge swathes of time to something I didn’t like.
Those are all facts.
I don’t have to do them. I can stop playing.
Are you suggesting everyone who wants to stop playing because they have nothing to do shouldn’t give suggestions on things that would keep them in game? Because it sure sounds like that’s what you’re suggesting.
OK, so instead of making kitten up about you being forced to raid, which even you seem to agree is factually UNTRUE, even though you yourself previously claimed it wasn’t, instead of that how’s about we comment on the aforementioned content drought? Why make kitten up instead of constructively discussing an actual legitimate issue? Why base your argument on something that is, essentially, a lie? And why are you avoiding directly answering my question about being forced or not? Interesting, I wonder why you would do that.
As for the content drought – they are aware of it, due to the way they (badly) handled things in 2014, they spent most of 2015 working only on HoT and had nothing in the pipes for post-HoT. They have acknowledged it, gave us a relatively clear time-window when we are getting new stuff and have hinted at what that stuff might be.
So essentially, even if we forget, again, the factual untruth that you are forced into raids, which undermines your entire thread, even if we forget that, we are left with a discussion that, while valid, has already ran its course. It’s a valid issue, but one Anet acknowledged THREE MONTHS AGO when they said they will focus on content from now on in the State of the Game blog post and one they addressed again in the AMA.
In conclusion – what exactly is constructive and new here, because I see nothing. If you wanna vent – fine, but venting isn’t constructive. Neither is making stuff up and using it as an argument.
At this point IF You want legendary armor, you are going to have to raid. That, at this time is a fact. If they have plans of bringing out legendary armor in any other format, I sure haven’t heard about it.
Sometimes context is everything. So I’ll clarify. If you want legendary armor, from what we know now, you will be indeed forced to raid. That is to say that’s the only way to get that reward when it finally comes out, that we know about.
That PUSHES people to do something they might not like. It doesn’t make them do it, but it strongly encourages them, puts pressure on them, exerts a certain force upon them.
You can keep saying I’m lying till the cows come home, but it doesn’t help anything.
If I can’t get legendary armor by any other method than raids, then the game is forcing me to raid for legendary armor.
Now, you can say I don’t need legendary armor, and you’b be quite correct. But I personally need goals that appeal to me, and none of the existing goals right now do. Legendary armor would appeal to me, but not at the price of doing raids.
Why would you want to push players that have a different opinion from the game, particularly because there are many of us? How is what you’re saying helping the game?
Yes, the content drought is part of the problem but I’m not sure it’s the whole problem.
I agree with Andulias — the content drought is the problem, not raids.
You seem focused on raid armor as an end game goal. Let’s take a step back. There are other collections you can do without legendary armor. Specialization collections, chak collection, ambrite collection, and more. These seem like end game goals at your skill/time level.
But you want a legendary! Despite that it has the same stats as ascended. Despite that stat changing is mostly useless. Ok. Let’s take a look at other legendaries.
To get a legendary backpiece, you must pvp. You are “forced” into this content. Eventually, you’ll be able to get it through fractals. You’re still forced into that content.
To get the new legendary weapons, you are forced into the HOT maps.
For the old legendary weapons, you were forced into map completion (lets ignore the trading post for a second). You were forced into completing a particular dungeon, or, eventually, a pvp track. You were forced into wvw.
This idea of forced content is nothing new for legendaries. This time though, you don’t like what you’re “forced” into. The good news is that legendaries don’t provide a statistical advantage.
Now lets look at the trading post. Personally, I’m ok with legendaries (and precursors) on the trading post, because, like you, I’d prefer acquiring legendaries through gameplay I enjoy. But I know many players like the new system, because it imparts prestige. I’m ok with that. I just won’t get one of the legendary weapons. Ascended works for me.
Rail against the new legendary system. Fine with me — I’m not opposed to alternate methods to get legendary armor. Rail against the content drought — I agree new content is long overdue. But don’t blame raids.
It seems you’ve run out of goals in this game. Personally, I’d think raids would be a good next goal for you. But it’s ok if you don’t like them. No one is forcing you to play them.
Yes, I’ve covered this in previous posts, but I’ll do it again now.
For the legendary backpiece, you can only get one in PvP at the moment but we also know you’ll be able to get one in Fractals as well, so therefore, there are two ways to get a legendary packpiece. We only know of one way to get legendary armor. The rest of your examples I’ve covered elsewhere.
I could get WvW world complete a tiny bit a time, 20 minutes here and there with no real dedicated time investment. I know this because that’s mostly how I did it.
I needed 9 dungeons but dungeons don’t take much prep. I can do one, take two weeks off and do another one. In a few months I’d have all my dungeons.
You can work on world complete in a completely casual mode. You can do a couple of points every time you enter a zone and eventually you’ll get them all. Sure it’ll take you time, but time isn’t really an issue for me.
Time all at one time IS an issue for me. That’s not casual. I’ve been able to get 8 legendaries without playing particularly hard.
I’m not able to get legendary armor, however, unless I run raids and if you can’t acknowledge that’s a whole different level of commitment than running a PvP match, or two or three…
I’m never going to have the PvP legendary back piece, because I’ll never get to diamond league. It’s not going to happen.
But I have a chance of running Fractals to get them.
I know that some can’t commit to long stretches of time at once — I still contend that 1 hour chunks, especially when spread across months and years, would be sufficient.
You don’t need to beat the raid bosses that many times to complete the current collection. Some you only need to beat once. I believe the highest you need to beat right now is gorseval (5 times). Granted, I have no idea how many legendary insights (1 boss kill = 1 legendary insight) we’ll need to make the legendary.
That’s pretty quick compared to the pvp backpiece. Personally, it’ll take me three seasons to complete – that’s nine months. You mentioned it’s doable in five seasons – that’s over a year. I think most players could beat a raid boss if they were given a year to do it.
Ultimately, legendary items are a prestige skin with the same stats as ascended. Personally, I would be ok if, eventually, there’s an alternate method to get legendary armor. Just like, eventually, we’ll be able to get the legendary backpiece from fractals. But beating raids is a prestige accomplishment. And legendary armor is an appropriate prestige award.
When will you casuals understand that Legendary armour is the same as Ascended. If legendary armour have increased stats then I can understand some of what you are saying. Stop feeling like you are entitled to the gear because you have played for years but don’t have time. Find a group or guild and start working on it as raids are not temporary content.
Should I be entitled to the PvP back because I have played since launch but find the meta boring or MM stupid? Should I be entitled to the new Legendary weapons because I don’t have the time to sit around for events? Should I be entitled to the FotM back because I hate swampland? Get of your lazy kitten and work for something instead of waiting for the gear to fall in your lap.
3 years of easy content and everything available for free has made the casuals more elitist then the actual elitist.
Saying something is the same, doesn’t make it the same. Just the fact that the color of the letters are different makes it a different tier of gear. There’s the wiki page for items:
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Item#Quality
In the chart in this page, it lists legendaries on a separate line from ascended. Therefore, in people’s minds, it’s going to be a different tier of gear. If you had a legendary weapon before ascended armor came out, then you’d have the ascended stats. The stats increased to match the current maximum level.
Since we can’t really guarantee there’ll never be another tier of gear, the tier of legendary gear is potentially endless. It’s a different class of item. It’s a different tier of gear.
You saying it’s not doesn’t make it any different in the minds of many. Many people see it as a different tier of gear and therefore they see it as desirable.
Now if it’s not particularly desirable why are so many hard core people telling us we’re entitled for wanting it? Seems like an odd thing to complain about, unless people want to keep it all to themselves.
And if it’s the same as ascended why would anyone argue for that?
In the same vein, having different color letters doesn’t mean an item is different.
We both know that ascended and legendary have the same stats. So why do people really want legendaries?
Insurance against future tiers is a bad argument. We haven’t had one for several years. And the backlash would be severe.
Stat changing is a bad argument. Those with legendaries know they don’t change the stats that often. If you want to experiment, then exotics are 1000x cheaper. If you care about min maxing, then you care about sigils and runes, and you can’t change those with legendaries.
So why do people care? They want the prestige. They want to show everyone that, through dedication and skill, they accomplished gw2’s ultimate end game content. How is putting legendary armor behind raids wrong here?
I see less complaints about the pvp legendary, despite the similarities with legendary armor. Not everyone will get it, because they may not be skilled. Not everyone will get it, because they don’t have the time (it requires, among other things, 3 matches a day for a long period of time). And a legendary backpiece is much more useful than legendary armor, because you can stat change without worrying about a rune or class restriction.
But people are ok with it. Maybe because of the fractal backpiece alternative, although who knows when anet will finish the collection.
For the record, I would be ok with alternative methods for legendary armor. But I’m also ok if there’s only one way. Because, ultimately, legendaries are a prestige item with no stat advantage. And completing raids can show that prestige.
And yet again, for the upteenth time, you fail to mention that NOBODY is forcing you to play ANY game mode you don’t like. And that invalidates your entire post in my eyes.
I’m sorry you’re not getting what I’m saying. I’m saying to progress in this game at this point, I pretty much have to do something I don’t enjoy. Obviously I can go level another character, but after over 30 characters probably not likely to happen.
The problem isn’t being forced to do content, so much as having very very little content available to me that advances me. If that’s okay for you, I’m actually happy for you.
Unfortunately it’s not okay for me.
Then take a short freaking break. Nobody is forcing you. You get nothing out of PvP or raids that you actually really need. You have played through all the content? Take a break, Guild Wars 2 was designed with that in mind. We are arguably in a content drought, that is of course a valid point of criticism, blaming it on PvP and raids is childish and a knee-jerk reaction.
The baseless and aimless whining (no, not constructive criticism, actual whining) on these forums never ceases to amaze me.
How is suggesting that giving people goals without forcing them into content that has a relatively narrow band of players non-constructive?
I’m saying there’s a way to make it so players like me have more to do, while still giving raiders a reward to show off. You may not agree with that, but that doesn’t make it non-constructive.
On the other hand, I’m not so sure labeling constructive crticism as non-constructive because you don’t personally agree with is particularly constructive either.
I’ve made my case. I believe it’s constructive. I believe it will help the game. I demonstrated why I feel the way I do and other people seem to agree with me. I’m not saying close down raids. I’m not saying don’t make raids. I am saying don’t lock a tier of gear behind one specific type of content that most people will never do. I don’t believe that’s good for the game.
If you disagree that’s perfectly okay. But that doesn’t make the suggestion non-constructive.
Because they are NOT forcing you! Your entire argument is based on something that is factually not true. And if it’s factually not true, it’s also not constructive in the slightest!
In your earnestness to invoke fact, you miss the entire argument.
It’s a fact that right now there isn’t anything in game I really want to do, so I don’t really want to log in at this time.
It’s a fact that I could take a break, but if I do, I might or might not come back at a later date. You might be happy for me to walk away for periods of time, I’m not sure Anet is as keen as you on the idea. And obviously I’m not really talking about me. We’re talking about players like me. Not everyone comes back.
It’s a fact that if I had something to work for like legendary armor, I’d work for it, as long as I didn’t have to devote huge swathes of time to something I didn’t like.
Those are all facts.
I don’t have to do them. I can stop playing.
Are you suggesting everyone who wants to stop playing because they have nothing to do shouldn’t give suggestions on things that would keep them in game? Because it sure sounds like that’s what you’re suggesting.
OK, so instead of making kitten up about you being forced to raid, which even you seem to agree is factually UNTRUE, even though you yourself previously claimed it wasn’t, instead of that how’s about we comment on the aforementioned content drought? Why make kitten up instead of constructively discussing an actual legitimate issue? Why base your argument on something that is, essentially, a lie? And why are you avoiding directly answering my question about being forced or not? Interesting, I wonder why you would do that.
As for the content drought – they are aware of it, due to the way they (badly) handled things in 2014, they spent most of 2015 working only on HoT and had nothing in the pipes for post-HoT. They have acknowledged it, gave us a relatively clear time-window when we are getting new stuff and have hinted at what that stuff might be.
So essentially, even if we forget, again, the factual untruth that you are forced into raids, which undermines your entire thread, even if we forget that, we are left with a discussion that, while valid, has already ran its course. It’s a valid issue, but one Anet acknowledged THREE MONTHS AGO when they said they will focus on content from now on in the State of the Game blog post and one they addressed again in the AMA.
In conclusion – what exactly is constructive and new here, because I see nothing. If you wanna vent – fine, but venting isn’t constructive. Neither is making stuff up and using it as an argument.
At this point IF You want legendary armor, you are going to have to raid. That, at this time is a fact. If they have plans of bringing out legendary armor in any other format, I sure haven’t heard about it.
Sometimes context is everything. So I’ll clarify. If you want legendary armor, from what we know now, you will be indeed forced to raid. That is to say that’s the only way to get that reward when it finally comes out, that we know about.
That PUSHES people to do something they might not like. It doesn’t make them do it, but it strongly encourages them, puts pressure on them, exerts a certain force upon them.
You can keep saying I’m lying till the cows come home, but it doesn’t help anything.
If I can’t get legendary armor by any other method than raids, then the game is forcing me to raid for legendary armor.
Now, you can say I don’t need legendary armor, and you’b be quite correct. But I personally need goals that appeal to me, and none of the existing goals right now do. Legendary armor would appeal to me, but not at the price of doing raids.
Why would you want to push players that have a different opinion from the game, particularly because there are many of us? How is what you’re saying helping the game?
Yes, the content drought is part of the problem but I’m not sure it’s the whole problem.
I agree with Andulias — the content drought is the problem, not raids.
You seem focused on raid armor as an end game goal. Let’s take a step back. There are other collections you can do without legendary armor. Specialization collections, chak collection, ambrite collection, and more. These seem like end game goals at your skill/time level.
But you want a legendary! Despite that it has the same stats as ascended. Despite that stat changing is mostly useless. Ok. Let’s take a look at other legendaries.
To get a legendary backpiece, you must pvp. You are “forced” into this content. Eventually, you’ll be able to get it through fractals. You’re still forced into that content.
To get the new legendary weapons, you are forced into the HOT maps.
For the old legendary weapons, you were forced into map completion (lets ignore the trading post for a second). You were forced into completing a particular dungeon, or, eventually, a pvp track. You were forced into wvw.
This idea of forced content is nothing new for legendaries. This time though, you don’t like what you’re “forced” into. The good news is that legendaries don’t provide a statistical advantage.
Now lets look at the trading post. Personally, I’m ok with legendaries (and precursors) on the trading post, because, like you, I’d prefer acquiring legendaries through gameplay I enjoy. But I know many players like the new system, because it imparts prestige. I’m ok with that. I just won’t get one of the legendary weapons. Ascended works for me.
Rail against the new legendary system. Fine with me — I’m not opposed to alternate methods to get legendary armor. Rail against the content drought — I agree new content is long overdue. But don’t blame raids.
It seems you’ve run out of goals in this game. Personally, I’d think raids would be a good next goal for you. But it’s ok if you don’t like them. No one is forcing you to play them.
Legendaries are better because they come with the guarantee that they’ll always have stats equal to the highest tier of equipment.
Years ago, they said legendaries weren’t more powerful than exotics. Look where we are now.
The highest tier of gear is Legendary and Ascended. Guess what, you can stat swap ascended as well and if you are worried about the runes being removed well hate to say it to you but if you stat swap your legendary armour you will have to get new runes as well.
What does that have to do with anything I said?
I’ll bite: it’s been 3 years since the ascended tier. That’s pretty good longevity. At this point, it’s severely unlikely they’ll add a new tier. Especially given the potential backlash if they did.
Go do a dungeon or a fractal. They contain the easy mode you desire.
Huh. Where is the Salvation Pass dungeon or Fractal? I wasn’t aware of that one.
Requiring certain gear in group content is ok. Otherwise, you are being carried or wasting everyone’s time.
Not if the content is designed to not require specific builds.
Saying there is no salvation pass dungeon or fractal is not really a response to this argument. It’s really “No, I want easy mode raids.” Despite that other content — like arah, like liadri, like jumping puzzles — has no easy mode.
Arah was arguably the hardest instanced content prior to raids. It has important lore elements and unique drops. Its tokens are required for bifrost. Seems like the current raid situation to me.
I’m not opposed to eventually adding an alternative method to acquiring legendary armor (like pvp tracks were added for dungeons). But that doesn’t mean that anet needs to waste developer resources to produce easy mode raids, when there is already so much content that fills that criteria.
As for requiring certain builds, that is only half true. Raids really require certain roles. Like dps, condition damage, tank, reflect, boon strip, or cc. Many different classes can fill these roles.
That doesn’t mean that you can bring whatever you want. Not all builds are good. Just like not all stat combinations are good for certain content. What’s good in pve is not necessarily good for pvp or wvw. Adapt your build and gear based on the content you play.
(edited by Absurdo.8309)
I’m not sure how comparing easy mode raids to dungeons and fractals is preposterous. The content you desire already exists in the game.
That has been answered many times already. Including to you personally. You just didn’t like the answer.
Honestly, I haven’t heard a response to this argument. The only answer I get is “No, I want easy mode raids.” Despite that other content — like arah, like liadri, like jumping puzzles — has no easy mode.
Arah was arguably the hardest instanced content prior to raids. It has important lore elements and unique drops. Its tokens are required for bifrost. Seems like the current raid situation to me.
I’m not opposed to eventually adding an alternative method to acquiring legendary armor (like pvp tracks were added for dungeons). But that doesn’t mean that anet needs to waste developer resources to produce easy mode raids, when there is already so much content that fills that criteria.
I personally posted another post in HOT discussion, advising Anet to either improve the raid communication tool, or offer free runs(or TRAININGS) with their staff. I don’t have THAT MUCH TIME to wait on LFG, hoping some PUG squad would pick me up on the right boss. This is VERY TIRING and TIME-CONSUMING. (and get you annoyed for free)
I’ll quote this one even though it was interesting to see your progression in this forum.
How do you think people learned raids when they first came out? They tried it. After some beat it, they posted videos. Now you can watch a video.
Pugs are generally not in it to teach people. They want to clear the content as quickly as possible. So they are unlikely to take a suboptimal build and someone with no experience.
You don’t need to wait on others to pick you up. The easiest method is to join a guild. Check reddit or these forums. Barring that, you could make a post: “LFM VG learning run.” Or find a friend to take you along.
The solution to your problem is at your fingertips. Be your own solution.
Y’know if you can’t manage going to metabattle and checking what a strong build for your class is, you probably aren’t up to snuff to raid.
This is why we’re discussing an easier gameplay mode, so that going to “metabattle” is less of a requirement. Come as you are, it’ll be ok.
Go do a dungeon or a fractal. They contain the easy mode you desire.
Requiring certain gear in group content is ok. Otherwise, you are being carried or wasting everyone’s time.
in pve – you do not have a thinking opponent.
in pvp – meta gear is opposite rock paper scissors.
Your gear should not be the winner, your skills should be.and finally yassith’s, juju, wanderers, vipers AND ALL of the new PVP / Hot related stars… are all deeply embedded in pve – but they are IN FACT critical stats to pvp. whether a player knows how to use them to his advantage or not is another discussion.
we don’t want to raid, nor have to play and think like a raider to get stats that are relevant to our play style.
I’m still not sure how your posts are relevant to the OP. The OP is about raids.
In pvp, you have access to all the stat combinations. If you are talking about wvw, then yes, you can’t achieve all stat combinations in wvw. You generally don’t need to raid to get them either. You can stat change at the mystic forge.
5% is everything in a downed state to a pvpr.
there should be no “Meta” gear, Meta gear only invites automaton gaming, no mindless gaming for me thanks.
Meta just means the optimum gear for the encounter.
In pve, 5% suboptimal gear is unlikely to have an effect on the encounter. Experience is much more important. That said, pug groups may require the meta gear because they know nothing about your experience.
I’m not sure how pvp applies to this conversation. You simultaneously state that the 5% damage makes a huge difference and then rail against the meta gear that brings the damage boost.
You don’t need to be a special snowflake in gear or build. The mechanics of the encounter can be far from mindless.
By the way, there is a pvp meta too.
I see you, Vayne, your point is valid. But I don’t like raids mostly because I CAN’T Raid. I’ve tried so many times and I don’t have the coordination. So I will never have Legendary Armor and that makes me sad. For me all this so-called easy content over the years has never been easy for me. I’ve hated feeling like a second class citizen because things others found easy were near-impossible for me to do. I really wish people could get alone and stop polarizing others. I shouldn’t be locked out of rewards in a GAME because I am not good enough at something. I should at least have the option to struggle my way through it. It’s taken me near 4 years to get three legendaries and I worked so hard for them. I am proud of my accomplishments and I should be allowed access to legendary armor regardless of the reason I want it. I dislike rewards being locked off to one game-type. I’m all for more options, more paths with the same goal. The special snowflake status some people feel at being elite should not dictate the rewards I get for my investments. I paid the same 50$ they did.
The exclusive rewards in raids are mostly cosmetic. I think it’s healthy for hard content to offer exclusive rewards.
As for legendary armor, it’s really only a skin. It has the same stats as ascended and its stat switching ability is a questionable quality of life improvement.
That said, I’m not opposed to alternate methods for legendary armor. But this probably won’t come for a while. We have 3 new legendary weapons that can only be attained through pve. A lot more to go. And the fractal backpiece isn’t done yet.
There’s plenty to aim for that’s not legendary armor. And if that’s the only thing you have left, the you probably have the time to master raids.
Well see, it’s a sinister set. Viper didn’t exist at the time, so it was the best for my condi damage build when I made it. Which sorta points out the problem with the “only having to do it once”, too, since what’s meta can and will change based on any new stat sets that get introduced, any balance patches that happen to buff or nerf whatever skill is doing the most or least damage at any given time, new elite specs, etc.
Somewhat OT but it would be a lot easier to gear appropriately for raids if we had a non cash shop option for getting our runes out of ascended stuff. I don’t have the gold to eat that cost every couple months and still work toward my other game goals.
Personally, I would take someone with sinister’s into raids while encouraging them to switch to vipers when they are able. I feel you, I switched everything to vipers with HOT, but it’s been 4 months now.
And then I lose 100g in runes.
True – I would caution anyone putting expensive runes in an off-meta ascended set. You’ll probably only need to eat this cost once though.
It’s literally
Get ascended gear of your stats: I did this a year ago idk about you
Get some scheduling done: Needing friends for this content is exactly the appealThat’s it. You can now make attempts and I look forward to your first VG kill.
Yeah, except when no one will allow the “ascended gear of your stats” that you spent several months making into raids, because it doesn’t figure into a meta build…
You can stat change ascended gear in the mystic forge. And almost all meta builds use berserker or viper.
Basically you pick mallyx over shiro ‘cos you don’t need the quickness (chronos provide you that). Mallyx elite (upkeep skill) increases all of your stats resulting in a dmg increase even in a power build.
For wing 1, dwarf is more in vogue because of the swirling hammer skill and the extra cc from the taunt skill. It does slightly more dps. But mallyx is not bad for vg if you need boon strip. For wing 2, mallyx can be useful for resistance. Others like centaur for condi clear or emergency projectile block. Personal preference.
Really? I actually hate dwarf in wing 1 because the hammers are so inconsistent there. Against VG if you get too close to the wall the hammers end prematurely. Against gorseval you get rocked by retaliation if you use the hammers during the break phase. Against sabetha you can’t get max DPS out of the hammers because you often can’t stand inside her unless you are the main timed bomb taker, and you obviously can’t move clockwise around her. I actually think mallyx winds up being better DPS because you can’t use the hammers to their full potential in any of the fights.
For wing 2 mallyx is obviously better against sloth and matthias.
I wouldn’t knock anyone for using mallyx on wing 1. I would agree that it’s personal preference.
I think it should only be obtainable from the raids. If pvpers want it then they need to earn it from the raid like the rest of us xD
Why? After all, if it is to be a mark of prestige, it should be available through content with higher difficulty (and compared to playing against real players, raids are easy).
Or are you afraid you’re not good enough?
I’m ok with alternate methods to acquire legendary armor. However, given Anet’s release schedule for legendary weapons, I don’t think it’ll happen anytime soon.
This conversation is indeed off the rails.
Regarding difficult v exclusive: We are arguing about semantics with no substance. I think we can agree that everyone has the potential to raid. I think we can also agree that not everyone is at that skill level.
Regarding gear: I think it’s fair to criticize having the wrong gear to raid. While I’m sure it’s possible to beat the bosses in whatever gear, it will not happen in a pug group or with inexperienced players. You can’t win pvp in whatever gear. You can’t win wvw in whatever gear. And you would be carried in instanced pve content in whatever gear.
Regarding alternatives to raids: There is tons of pve content at the easy mode raid skill level. An easy mode raid, with no reward and no difficulty, has no replayability. Other content, like dungeons, fractals, and open world, is more suited to the criteria you’re looking for.
Hard content in this game does not have an easy mode, because there is tons of other content. There was no easy mode liadri, because there were other bosses in the Queens gambit. There’s no easy mode arah, because there are easier dungeon paths to experience. There’s no easy mode not so secret jumping puzzle, because there are easier jumping puzzles. Similarly, there should be no easy mode raids, because there’s fractals, dungeons, and open world.
I agree that content has been irregular since HOT. No new dungeons or fractals. Fractal revamp a mess. Dungeon nerf. I think this is the real problem, not raids.
I would like to interject a point a point. Following all your Previous Logic.
:IE:
You can have hard Jumping Puzzles because you have easy Jumping Puzzles
You can have Hard Dungeons Because You have easy DungeonsThe Logical Progression Should be.
You can have Hard raids Because You have Easy Raids
Which is.. badum-Tish!
What people are asking for.
I actually agree. But the proper logical progression is that you have some raid bosses that are easier than others. Which we do – see vale guardian and bandit trio.
And, if you widen your scope to pve content in general, then I think it’s fair to present dungeons and fractals as the “easy” alternative instanced content to raids.
(edited by Absurdo.8309)
I appreciate how genuine this post is. But I fundamentally disagree with its conclusion.
I dabbled in a couple of mmo’s before guild wars 2, but never really got hooked on any others. What hooked me on guild wars 2 was the active combat and cooperative open world mechanics.
I can dodge. I can move while attacking. I don’t have 4 skill bars worth of skills. There’s no kill stealing. No node stealing.
For my first year, I enjoyed the open world. It’s beautiful. Quests appear to have meaning. There’s always another nook to explore.
But, eventually, you discover everything. Yes, anet had living story releases, but you beat those too. So what kept me in game? Fractals and dungeons. I just love the combat. Can’t get enough.
So raids? They help bring out some of those combat mechanics. And they do a really good job in doing it.
I can see why people are upset. There’s no real exploration in the new zones. Most are somewhat dangerous, so you can’t really stop and smell the roses. And the story was so short that you can beat it in a couple of days.
But you’re not looking for raid content. Please, don’t destroy it. You want more sandbox maps, events like the destruction of lions arch and the zephyrites, and bosses like the marionette. But please understand, we haven’t had new fractals or dungeons for over 2 years. For people like me, who enjoy the combat, this content is tantamount.
So ask for what you’re looking for. New maps. World events. But don’t neuter or slow down raids in the process. It’s ok for people to enjoy different content in this game.
How is not looking an entire tier behind raid rewards destroying raids? Or are you saying people will only raid if you force them to for rewards? I don’t believe dungeon runners are half the player base, even though more than half the player base as run dungeons. I’ve run dungeons dozens of times…each dungeon dozens of times, with the exception of TA Aetherblade and Arah path four which I’ve probably run a dozen times. I do it to help people in my guild if they want something for an achievement, but for much of the time I find it to be more of a chore.
Yes, there are those who love dungeons and raids, but if they’re not a majority you shouldn’t create rewards just for that group that include functionality. In Guild Wars 1, everyone could get top level stuff. What you couldn’t get were skins.
I don’t understand how applying that here would kill raids. I’m not anti raid. I’m anti-taking away goals that might help keep people playing who don’t want to raid.
If I started raiding, within months, I’d be looking for another MMO, because ultimately it’s too much time playing something I’m not personally enjoying. Since most of my other goals have been accomplished, why lock legendary armor behind raids exclusively? How does that help raiders?
I think we can find some common ground. I agree that legendary tier armor should not be exclusively behind raids. I don’t think raids should be changed to accomplish this goal. I wouldn’t be opposed, for example, to a wvw method to acquire legendary armor.
Requiring certain content with legendaries is new with HOT. Previously, if you hated map completion, you could just buy the legendary off the trading post. The flip side is there’s less “prestige” in the legendary. I’m personally ok with this.
This legendary problem is not limited to raids. You must do the HOT maps several times to unlock the new legendary weapons. (As an aside, you must also complete certain open world content for legendary armor, such as chak gerent). You must do pvp for the legendary backpiece. Eventually you’ll be able to do fractals.
At the pace anet is releasing legendary weapons, I doubt they’ll get to alternatives for legendary armor any time soon. But I wouldn’t be opposed to it.
In the meantime, consider that legendary armor is really just a skin. As for stat changing, exotic is 1000 times cheaper to experiment with. And, if you are serious about stats, then you care about sigils and runes. And you can’t change those with legendaries. It’s much cheaper to have alternate ascended sets.
Basically you pick mallyx over shiro ‘cos you don’t need the quickness (chronos provide you that). Mallyx elite (upkeep skill) increases all of your stats resulting in a dmg increase even in a power build.
For wing 1, dwarf is more in vogue because of the swirling hammer skill and the extra cc from the taunt skill. It does slightly more dps. But mallyx is not bad for vg if you need boon strip. For wing 2, mallyx can be useful for resistance. Others like centaur for condi clear or emergency projectile block. Personal preference.
Is there still some demand for burnzerker warrior in raids or is it almost always PS?
I’m also thinking about starting a Revanent, are they in demand for raids and fractals as well?
when burnzerker got fixed it brought its condi damage potential down to probably 3rd place behind necro/engi (I’m not sure the actual order of those 2. As such, if you have an engi or necro where you need condi, those are preferred and the warrior is likely going to be asked to go PS. Now, if you already have all your specific roles covered including might, and your group just needs DPS, I dont see a big problem letting someone run burnzerk.
most groups have at least 1 revenant, the rev will be in the subgroup with the chrono to provide the facet of nature for 50% boon duration for quickness.
Personally, if a warrior had both sets of power and condi gear, and we already had enough condi for the fight, then I would ask the warrior to go PS. It is might insurance, and the damage is probably similar to the now nerfed burnzerker.
If we were short on condi for vg, I would not turn away a burnzerker.
This conversation is indeed off the rails.
Regarding difficult v exclusive: We are arguing about semantics with no substance. I think we can agree that everyone has the potential to raid. I think we can also agree that not everyone is at that skill level.
Regarding gear: I think it’s fair to criticize having the wrong gear to raid. While I’m sure it’s possible to beat the bosses in whatever gear, it will not happen in a pug group or with inexperienced players. You can’t win pvp in whatever gear. You can’t win wvw in whatever gear. And you would be carried in instanced pve content in whatever gear.
Regarding alternatives to raids: There is tons of pve content at the easy mode raid skill level. An easy mode raid, with no reward and no difficulty, has no replayability. Other content, like dungeons, fractals, and open world, is more suited to the criteria you’re looking for.
Hard content in this game does not have an easy mode, because there is tons of other content. There was no easy mode liadri, because there were other bosses in the Queens gambit. There’s no easy mode arah, because there are easier dungeon paths to experience. There’s no easy mode not so secret jumping puzzle, because there are easier jumping puzzles. Similarly, there should be no easy mode raids, because there’s fractals, dungeons, and open world.
I agree that content has been irregular since HOT. No new dungeons or fractals. Fractal revamp a mess. Dungeon nerf. I think this is the real problem, not raids.
Ohoni.6057:You assume that players WANT to ever reach “raid level difficulty.” Most don’t. They just want a way AROUND that level of difficulty. There is no virtue in being able to pass highly difficult content, it’s either something that you enjoy or it is not, and player who do not enjoy it, should not have to do it.
There’s a trope that GW2 players want to press 1 and receive loot. I’m worried you’re fitting into that trope.
I get that not everyone can beat a raid. But it’s ok to have varying levels of difficulty in content. And it’s ok to have different rewards for different content. Especially rewards that don’t give a statistical advantage.
Everything you want is in other areas of the game. Epic open world boss fights. Forgiving instanced content. Interesting boss mechanics. Raids cater to a different player base.
Not everyone can beat all content in this game. Not everyone can get to legendary pvp. Not everyone can beat arah. Not everyone can do all the jumping puzzles. That doesn’t mean that we need an easy mode for this content. It means you need other options to enjoy the game. Which you already have.
and this is why as a person more into wvw and solo roaming – i’ll never do raids ….the builds are so meta – and it’s a catch 22, to get the vipers ascended trinkets you have to raid, to raid you need vipers ascended or no one will play with you. WHAT?!!!
Now I have nothing against raids and how people want to play them, but I am very upset with how vipers stats are kept away from wvw because of this pve – elite build fiasco.
many little things like this in the rules in gw2 that make gw2 not very fun at all, the game itself is fun, the logistics are actually quite bullying and stressful. if you want to play your best build in wvw, you will have build a vipers gear set that will let you farm for vipers gear.
completely illogical and very punishing and does nothing than to force people out of their preferred play mode.
You do not need ascended vipers to play a condi necro in raids. I would expect a condi necro to have vipers armor and weapons. But sinister trinkets are acceptable. I have sinister trinkets on mine. I think the dps difference is about 2%, because of the condi duration cap.
Edit: I agree that viper trinkets should be more assessible though.
I think people disagree on the value of ascended based on first principles, and that’s ok. We all agree that it’s a 2-3% stat increase for a disproportionate amount of gold. Some people want to spend their gold on ascended armor, others on cool looking skins. That’s ok. Heck, not all my alts are in full ascended armor, mainly because I consider the 400 magnatite shard cost for a chest piece not worth it.
I think we can also all agree that you can beat all the raid bosses without ascended armor. That said, I fully support raid leaders requiring full ascended for their pugs. Given the choice between two players I don’t know, where I don’t know their skill level, I would choose the full ascended every time. They’ll do more damage, and they’ve shown a commitment to stat maximization. The full ascended player has a higher probability of being better for the group.
Personally, I use legendary insight checks for my pugs. But I draw the insight threshold equally arbitrarily. There may not be much difference in skill between a 10- and 15-insight player. But, if I don’t know either, I choose the 15-insight player every time.
The good thing is that if you disagree with these metrics you can start your own pug group or join a guild raiding group. You can be your own solution.
I appreciate how genuine this post is. But I fundamentally disagree with its conclusion.
I dabbled in a couple of mmo’s before guild wars 2, but never really got hooked on any others. What hooked me on guild wars 2 was the active combat and cooperative open world mechanics.
I can dodge. I can move while attacking. I don’t have 4 skill bars worth of skills. There’s no kill stealing. No node stealing.
For my first year, I enjoyed the open world. It’s beautiful. Quests appear to have meaning. There’s always another nook to explore.
But, eventually, you discover everything. Yes, anet had living story releases, but you beat those too. So what kept me in game? Fractals and dungeons. I just love the combat. Can’t get enough.
So raids? They help bring out some of those combat mechanics. And they do a really good job in doing it.
I can see why people are upset. There’s no real exploration in the new zones. Most are somewhat dangerous, so you can’t really stop and smell the roses. And the story was so short that you can beat it in a couple of days.
But you’re not looking for raid content. Please, don’t destroy it. You want more sandbox maps, events like the destruction of lions arch and the zephyrites, and bosses like the marionette. But please understand, we haven’t had new fractals or dungeons for over 2 years. For people like me, who enjoy the combat, this content is tantamount.
So ask for what you’re looking for. New maps. World events. But don’t neuter or slow down raids in the process. It’s ok for people to enjoy different content in this game.
I think both sides have cognizant arguments that should be heard.
Yes, the conversation has become a little circular because of the same small group of people (on both sides) pushing their agenda.
However, between the hyperbole/namecalling/belittling comments (again, from both sides), there is still a debate/conversation worth having. Please don’t let it devolve into a grudge match between egos. So, stop directing comments at individual players and making blanket hypothetical statements. Focus instead on making your argument in as clear and calm a method as possible.
This is an important topic for many of us.
You are correct, it is an agenda. But one is an agenda of inclusion, the other is one of exclusion.
If I was going to push an Agenda, my goal would be to make the game fun for the most amount of of people, possible, and to make content that was inclusive to as many demographics as I was able.
The truth is, no one enjoys being excluded from Content, I can promise you, everyone here that clamoring for Raids to be exclusive to the less then elite, would be appalled and indigent if Anet made content that somehow barred the elite player.
Allow me to put forth an idea. Imagine if there was a Story Mode or Raid Mode, for the new content. But you could only do one of them. You had to pick, if you did the Story, your account would locked out from the Raid, if you did the Raid, your account would be locked out from the Story.
While the story Mode and the Raid, would offer the same ability to complete any world collections, they each also had their own unique Armor Skins weapon Skins, the raid would have them as random Drops, the Story Mode would reward them for completing Achievements, they would be account bound, so they could not be sold on the BL. The raid of course would also drop it’s ascended items, extra loots and what have you, where the Story would give you some nominal coinage, and a generic champion bag, not much. In the name of Fairness, the Weapon Skins would identical, except for one would be Red and the other Blue.
I can promise you, that every elite player that is praising the exclusion that raids provide them, would be livid over this.
They would lose their minds over being excluded from content that was geared for casuals, and they would feel entitled to take part in it, so much so that some of them would make alt account, just to run that casual content. Simply because, they felt that they were owed it. I know this because, while I have become more casual over the many years I have played, at one time I was a very hardcore player. While maybe people who were always casual don’t grasp that, I do, in a very real sense. I was hard core back in the days when 17 hour farms, and 10 hour raids, where the norm, 48 hour week end splurges living on MtDew and Cheetos, was, “Catching Up” Now days, I’m older, job, family, house, in short, life came up, that kind of investment is a bygone era. But back then, I was all for excluding people that could not invest the time I could, and they made the same arguments that are being made today. In that time, we have eliminated spawn camping, kill stealing, we have added in instance based gaming, and raids have gone from a 10 hour ordeal to a 2 hour Tank&Spank.
Coming full Circle, in 20 years, I’ll say this, No one wants to be excluded from content, no one, and this is a progressive lesson that every game company is learning, you simply can’t afford to exclude people, no matter what the elite might want to say. Unless you plan to make a very niche game, and have a self imposed limitation on your demographic, you need to be all inclusive.
Truth is, we can hem and haw all we want, but here is the final reality, It is not a question on Anet’s part of they will eventually make raids inclusive, it is a question of how much they will hemorrhage players before they do.
So the real question becomes, how should they do it.
Personally, I love the idea of a Story Mode (1 – 5 players) – Raid Mode (10 players) Division, and I adore the Idea that players would need to chose between doing the Story or the Raid.
Just my two bits, from a old time raider.
This is a false analogy. Anyone can participate in a raid.
Not all content has to cater to the lowest skill level. I do not mean this in the pejorative sense. But it’s ok to have hard content, as long as there is easy content too. And there is. Play the content you are comfortable playing.
There is other content with no easy mode. Take arah. It has lore elements. Unique skins. Rare drops. Challenging bosses. I don’t recall anyone calling for easy mode arah. Because there was other content to enjoy.
I think many players are burned out with the lack of content since HOT. We’ve really only had one new thing: raids. But raids aren’t fit everyone. What you should really be clamoring for are new maps, fractals, and dungeons. I agree these are long overdue.
We did get new shatterer, and I like it a lot for casual content. Gliding, interesting mechanics, epic scale. But the hard core raiders didn’t clamor for a hard mode shatterer, because they had raids. Similarly, you should all for content that is more amenable to your play style. That’s not raids, easy mode or no.
Pact Mentor - Toggle for swiftness in cities
in Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns
Posted by: Absurdo.8309
Is there a visual effect other than the buff on your boon bar?
“If you can pass the wall, it doesn’t exist”.
But it does.Though yes, i agree, it’s not primarily skill-based. There are other, far more important factors involved.
What exactly are you having difficulty with when trying to get past VG?
I honestly don’t think that any issues pre-raid are going to actually be fixed by adding an easy mode. You need to find a raid group, you need to find a guild, etc etc.
Mostly it’s the time and organizational commitment. I could maybe get my guild to organize so that there are 10 people ready at the same time, but only for an attempt with a reasonable chance of succeeding. Which, we both know, is not going to happen unless everyone is already experienced. And i’m in this game to play with my friends, so i’m not going to look for a guild full of people i don’t care about either.
There’s a “small”, secondary gate in form of needing the right gear too, but i bet i’m going to hear now that not only it’s easily passed, but is not even a gate because even a total noob should be able to do it in exotics.The best way to do that, IMO, would be to address other small-group content somehow, including Dungeons and Fractals, so they can do the job they’re supposed to do and provide a stepping stone for players.
As the main problem in Raids is time and organization, no changes to Dungeons or Fractals are going to help there.
Frankly it’s pretty late and I couldn’t be bothered reading through the entire thread and getting your concerns but yeah I don’t think the problem of raids being a ‘wall’ is because raids are a wall, it’s because dungeons and fractals aren’t being the ramp up the wall that they need to be.
Oh no, it’s exactly because raids are a wall. A wall that has been specifically designed to prevent as many players as possible from even trying, just so remaining ones can feel better.
If your main problem is organization, then perhaps raids aren’t for you. There’s plenty of other content that requires less organization. I don’t think easy mode will solve you problem.
(edited by Absurdo.8309)
How about we take one argument from each side and focus on the points and counterpoints of those arguments.
For example:
- Some in the hardcore raider community feel that offering lower difficulty levels would take away from the overall raiding experience – either by lowering the prestige associated with the game mode or by encouraging the developers to move away from difficult content – something many really want.
- Some in the more casual community feel that the addition of layered difficulties would actually be healthy for raiding in the long run, because more raiders/players enjoying the content would potentially give Anet a reason to focus more resources on that game mode.
Let’s hear the pros and cons – and maybe focus on specific talking points that advocate one approach or the other. It may not have an impact on the direction of the game, but it will allow us as players to more clearly express how we feel about this topic.
I severely doubt that ANET could balance the rewards for easy mode raids. Look at fractals. Everyone runs swamp because the rewards are imbalanced. Look at dungeons (pre nerf). Everyone ran the same paths because the rewards were imbalanced.
Even if they could balance the rewards, I would still be opposed, albeit less strongly. I would just see it as a waste of developer resources. We don’t have easy mode arah, or easy mode jumping puzzles, for example.
As for arguments against raids, I’ll quote myself:
Full disclosure: I think raids are the best content in HOT. I’ve yet to see a good argument against them. Most seem to boil down to the same arguments:
1. It’s too hard. Answer: There is other pve content that can cater to your skill level. Try out dungeons, fractals, open world pve, or world bosses. It’s healthy for the game to provide for different skill levels.
2. I want the skins/minis/legendary armor. Answer: It’s ok for content to have exclusive rewards. And these rewards are just cosmetic. They provide no statistical advantage. As for legendary stat swapping, it is expensive to make a legendary and mostly useless. It’s much cheaper to experiment with exotic sets or even stat change ascended gear in the mystic forge. Personally, I’ve only stat changed my legendary weapons once.
3. I don’t like the raiding community. Answer: Then make your own group. Personally, I’ve found very few groups toxic or mean. But there is nothing stopping you from forming a group of like minded individuals.
4. I don’t have the time to raid. Answer: I’m not sure there’s much I can do about this one. Raids are weekly, so you have all week to find the time. But if you can’t, then you’re missing out on other content as well. Like dragon stand, the pvp ladder, or significant wvw encounters. I would suggest finding content in gw2 that fits your play schedule.
5. I want to experience the lore. Answer: Watch a YouTube video, or have someone open a finished instance for you. Speaking personally, I enjoy raids for the encounters, not for the lore.
6. I want to experience the mechanics. Answer: Then raid! The reason why most encounters are difficult is because of the cumulative effect of all the mechanics. But if you want low stress boss mechanics, try world bosses
Your point is well-taken. However, I would caution assigning equal weight to the hyperbole. I notice you aren’t quoting anyone in your “no easy mode raids” strawman, for example.
So my point isn’t valid because I didn’t went through 50 pages of text to find quote on the other side? Would you have done it?
Keep in mind that i quoted only one guys. The only guy on both side that say thing as extreme. It’s not because because 1 side have a really really extreme guys that both side doesn’t have equal weighs. Anyway, we are not here to count the amount of crazy talk on both side. I just don’t want that these crazy talk just shutdown any discussion.
It may not seem as crazy as that guy said, but when the anti-easy-mode side just keep pointing at WoW and doesn’t address the fact that it’s the reward system in the WoW LFR that screw it up, no the LFR itself.
I meant no disrespect, and took your advice to heart in removing personal references.
I’m just addressing your argument towards hyperbole. I’m not addressing the merits towards your point of view. I think the fact that you would need to wade through several pages to find an opposing quote demonstrates that the “easy mode raid” side (mainly one person) is winning on hyperbole.