Guild Wars 2

Agree 100% with OP. Seems like an oversight.

Maybe a mystic forge recipe to fix the problem? Or a vendor tab on the asura in the lobby. I would recommend a straight-up upgrade, but ANET may not want non-HOT people getting +7’s.

I feel the pain of this problem after super adventure box. I got the aura, but can’t use it on my fractal characters!

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Well, not warrior with rifle, so that leaves engineer. However if you give the warrior longbow as a ranged weapon then your ranger can’t have one, which may or may not be important to you.

Dagger is really good on necro, imo, so giving it to ele means you’re not using an interesting playstlye on your necro, and vice versa for that matter. And if you get a thief, daggers are frequently used on that profession.

Your guardian has no ranged weapons with your set up. Sometimes you need one, if only to kite while your health is low and your heal is on cooldown.

Give it a try. You can always have a rule of these weapons this week and those weapons next week to switch out and still only have one weapon per char.

Pursuant to the OP, my goal was to use all weapons, with as few classes as possible, with as few repeats as possible, and as close to the meta as possible. I think that’s pretty close.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

According to simulations that I’ve run, using [KING]‘s data, roughly one in 10,000 people earning 75 T4 rewards won’t see even a single ascended weapon|armor box.

The median is around 7 (meaning: half of us will see fewer than one box every 10 T4 rewards or so).

tl;dr the OP’s personal fractal data isn’t enough to suggest whether non-HoT owners are unable to get any ascended weapons/armor.

---

On the other hand, ANet has said at numerous times that the drop rate from actual chests is determined by the same loot table for everyone, i.e. that once you get the Master’s Chest (from completing T4), it shouldn’t matter if you own HoT or not. In other words, the fact that the OP received Master’s & Expert chests suggests that the loot is the same for HoT and non-HoT owners.

---

Off topic, how did the OP get their AR up to 120 or so? (I’m curious — there are all sorts of ways to complete T4 fractals with lower AR than recommended; it’s just unusual.)

1 in 10,000 is enough to check it out, by any rational standard.

EDIT: I think he said he used death shroud to avoid some agony ticks.

STIHL.2489:

ProtoGunner.4953:

If people haven’t maxed out gliding by now they should reconsider their playstyle. If they are so lazy why bother playing an MMO anyways.

What if they simply do not like the HoT maps? Ever think of that?

For many people that enjoy WvW, or EotM, Mainland Mastery Line was super easy because WvW rewarded Mainland Exp. many of us capped our mastery lines before we even knew what they were about, and some people were just doing mastery lines because we didn’t want to waste the EXP. Now, if game modes like WvW and EotM had rewarded HoT Exp as well then it would have made sense that they also had their HoT mastery Lines done. But for people who enjoy WvW, they would need to stop doing WvW, and go do HoT exclusively to cap their mastery lines.

Now, I get that people who only do PvE may miss this, but for people who do WvW, all the time they are spending grinding some stupid PvE content, is time they are not defending their borders, time they are not contributing to their side to win. It’s one thing to put aside maybe an hour a week right before reset, to go do a bit of PvE content, it’s a whole other thing to demand they put away the time cap a mastery.

Honestly, these kitten responses by PvE players, really make me wish they would bring back WvW map Completion for Legendary Items.

You can get HOT exp by actually doing the raids. This argument seems more theoretical than practical.

Interesting idea: Here’s my contribution —

Warrior: Greatsword + Rifle
Ranger: Longbow + sword/torch
Guardian: Hammer + mace/shield
Thief: dagger/pistol + shortbow
Necro: Scepter / focus + axe/warhorn
Ele : Staff

Some aren’t (pre – HOT) meta, but it’s pretty close.

It takes less than a day to get all the mastery points.

And any serious raider would have already done some pve to unlock stat combinations or pets (in the case of druid).

Gaile has very kindly given us a heads-up about this requirement. We’ll complain about anything.

trunks.5249:

Absurdo.8309:

No thank you, sometimes the best option to win a game is not to get personal score.

Otherwise, everyone will cap home for the points. No one would defend. Just bad incentives all round.

if people just stood at home they would never get enough points to get a pip

I think you misunderstand me, and your point goes towards why I don’t think points should be used for pips.

At the start if the match, the usual split involves one person heading for home. If people cared about points, then they would 5 cap home for the points. People would also refuse to leave points until they were capped, despite that only one person needs to be on the point.

Also, defending is usually vital to winning a match. But it is worth comparatively fewer points than capping or fighting on a contested point.

I feel like your proposed system would end up being a self fulfilling prophecy: players would focus on individual points, rather than winning the match, thus necessitating the need for individual points. I’d rather just keep it to winning the match.

No thank you, sometimes the best option to win a game is not to get personal score.

Otherwise, everyone will cap home for the points. No one would defend. Just bad incentives all round.

Same argument, same cast of characters.

Let’s put aside that the original topic, getting rid of enrage timers, has already been addressed. The general consensus is that the timer is generally not the limiting factor for most groups.

So we’re back to easy mode raids, and endless quote sniping.

Apologies for sounding dismissive, but we’ve had this argument several times over. The easy mode raiders can’t stand that a small portion of the game is hard. Despite that there is plenty of easy and medium tier content — open world, world bosses, map events, dungeons, fractals.

Still really haven’t heard a coherent argument against this. All I get is “I must be able to do all the content at my skill level.”

This thread has run its course. Sign me up for locking it.

Zui.9245:

Dear Moderation Staff,

Can we get this moved back to the “Fractals, Dungeons & Raids” and raids subfourm?

This is not an in-game event. It’s a meeting that will occur on a voice chat software. The only ‘in-game" portion of this is that it effects some players in-game, when they’re doing Fractals, Dungeons & Raids records.

This is not an open community event, either. Nor is it something that anyone who visits this subfourm will be able to participate in, since one needs to have actually participated in records to attend.

It’s exclusively referencing the records ruleset for Fractals, Dungeons & Raids.

As such, it belongs in the Fractals, Dungeons & Raids sub-fourm, not here, where no one relevant will ever see it again.

As a note, I wouldn’t have to appeal to you guys in the text of this thread if there were some way to contact you directly, perhaps in regards to the “we moved your thread” notice.

Agreed 100% – I thought is was strange that this was moved to this forum, given that it is not an in game event, and that it is tied to fractals, dungeons, and raids. The intended audience for this thread is not in this sub forum.

Great initiative. I think a robust speed running community is a good thing. I enjoy watching the speed runs, and I think the tactics generally percolate to pug runs as well.

Here’s my opinion as a one-time participant. I only plan to spectate for the immediate future, so please discount my opinion accordingly.

1. I always thought the fractal 49 rule versus 50 was a bit odd. Over time, anyone seriously interested in speed running would get ascended gear.

I think an all fractal approach would be a bit unwieldy to administer. The top shard for each fractal would be much easier. An egalitarian compromise could be any fractal in tier 4.

2. I didn’t know this was a thing. I guess it would be up to the stakeholders to decide this one. If it was me personally, I would be upset if I had to craft a 100 gold ascended weapon to replace my 2000 gold legendary.

3. I think per boss records are the most logical. You could additionally throw in per wing records, if there was interest. But I think most players and spectators would be more interested in seeing the speed run of a particular boss.

I minor point, but you’ll probably need a uniform rule for when the timer starts. I could see the timer starting when someone enters the arena, when someone aggros the boss, or when the timer actually starts in game. I think when the timer actually starts is easier to administer, even if it allows some set up time on VG and GOR.

I am personally not interested in seeing any of the pre-events, but I guess that would be up to the stake holders to decide.

I don’t think trio should be excluded, even if it is mostly a time gate.

I do think low mans should be included.

4. I think boss records are a subset of their particular dungeon, so I don’t think records for them are necessary. But up to the stakeholders I suppose.

5. I’m not sure what the current norm is regarding consumables in solos and duos, but I’ll assume they use them a lot. Personally, I enjoy seeing all the creative ways players use consumables in dungeons, and I think solos and duos are the right place to show them off.

Of course it’s hard to judge based on the limited information in this post. I would not take a kick within the first 5 minutes of a fractal personally — a minor transgression, or poor performance in the previous fractals, could have been the reason.

That said, I would consider running back to the fire (where the svanir were) after every phase change “incorrect.” I would only run back if it was clear the group would wipe.

bai long.2085:

Some of the responses are more along the line that I’m totally wrong in whatever I happen to say. That’s strange to me. More of them still aren’t exactly civil, which is also strange to me because I’ve been more than accommodating to people’s opinions even when sometimes they seem to just be “you don’t get it, son”.

With that being said, if I didn’t care about GW2 or whatever any of you had to say I’d simply stop checking back at this forum post I’d made. If I were here just for the sake of being difficult I’d just not be here. I type my long posts because I can think of a lot to say, about anything.

I’m by no means a game designer, but here are a couple of interesting ideas you could institute to make the raids more accessible (mind you, all of them include removing the timer):

-A mistake based punishment
Rather than having an enrage timer why not have a system where if players screw up a mechanic they’re all punished? For example, if you miss the green circle once on the VG, he gains a permanent X% attack bonus? It doesn’t have to be this specific, but why not have something similar? I think it allows any combination of builds to fight the bosses while ensuring that they’re required to perform the mechanics properly.

-Revivable players
Make players revivable from death. The mistake punishment system would keep things difficult by making players think twice about wasting time reviving someone, unless the person they were down was desperately needed. Who knows? Trying to revive someone from death might actually get the entire party killed. It’s risky, it’s difficult, it adds more variety to the combat.

-More difficult mechanics (at least requiring more people)
To keep people from selling off the raids the mechanics should require 100% of the participants to actively participate in the mechanics. It should take the entire group, minus nobody, to keep from wiping the group. I guess you could still sell a run, provided the person who was buying it knew exactly what to do at every portion of the fight. But at that point, why are they paying to be run through at all?

7 Berserker’s druids at my personal skill level could beat the raid. 10 Nomad’s druids at my skill level could not. The timer would run out. This shouldn’t be the case. If 10 of one type can do it, 10 of any type should be able to do it.

Am I trying to change the way raids work? Yes. Am I challenging the status quo? Yes. However, I’m not suggesting any of what I’m suggesting at ANYONE’S EXPENSE. I don’t want ArenaNet to give me what I want and take away what you like about it. I don’t want them to cater to just me.

I want them to consider the possibility that if they made some changes to the way the raids work they may keep more people playing in the long run and may even bring some people back who’d quit because they weren’t being challenged.

Are they going to change the raids because I made a forum post? No, absolutely not. But I want as many people as possible to weigh in (with civility, mind you) so that just maybe someone important will see it and at least take what I’m saying to mind.

I’ve played GW2 since launch and quit and rejoined multiple times for different reasons: lack of new content, lack of challenge, never any new fractals, never any new dungeons, etc. It’s a routine, to be honest. Fractals is a routine, raiding is a routine for many of those who do it. I log on and run a few fractals for some weapon or armor skins (that maybe I don’t even like) that don’t have any better stats than what I already have. Most people don’t play GW2 for the challenge anymore, they play it because that’s just what they’ve done for the longest time and they hate the idea of missing out on a daily chest.

I have 11k achievement points and I’ve played since launch. There are people with 28k+ achievement points running around just because (pardon the slight insult) they don’t have anything better to do than log in everyday and complete their dailies. That’s what they like to do.

I wish they kept their content fresh and released new (permanent) content regularly, like every other MMO out there, but they kinda don’t. So, as for me, the only source of fun I have playing the game is seeking out ridiculous benchmark challenges for the build I’ve made. The ONE build I’ve made. The ONE character who I ever play. I’m a very focused individual and I do one thing at a time.

I solo dungeon paths for fun (with the build I’d made)
I solo lupicus in Arah (with the build I’d made)
I roam around killing folks in WvW (with the build I’d made)

I wish I could say that I run the raids (with the build I’d made).

Don’t mistake people who disagree with you as berating your opinion. There may be some snark, but understand we get one of these threads about once a week.

Eliminating the timer will not fix the “problem” you want to address. Here’s why:

1. Most of the encounters are not dps checks. It’s usually the mechanics that cause groups to fail. The exception may be gorseval, but some groups have low-manned this boss.

2. Given that most fights are not dps checks, some players can bring whatever gear they want. However, most groups will not want a nomads character because they don’t contribute very much to the group.

3. If you want to be super tanky, more power to you. The trade off is that the boss may hit the enrage timer and do more damage.

4. Eliminating the enrage timer trivializes damage builds. Why be glassy when you can just sit back, auto attack, and take no damage? Having an enrage timer incentivizes more skilled gameplay.

To most raiders, saying “I want to raid in nomads gear” is like saying “I want to do dungeons with no traits.” Is it possible? Yes. Will you be carried? Yes. Can the whole group do it? Maybe, if they’re skilled enough. The same applies to raids.

As to your contention that your suggestions don’t hurt anyone, I think you’re incorrect. Eliminating the enrage timer has the potential to trivialize the content.

Also, briefly to your other suggestions.

- Why is low manning such a bad thing? Why require 10 people to complete mechanics?

- Most bosses are mechanics based.

- Being able to revive someone trivializes the risk of dying. It doesn’t take that long to revive when you have 5 people doing it.

Many groups will accept you if you have ascended trinkets and weapons. Focus on getting those first. Here’s how I recommend to get them:

Rings – Fractals, by random drop or pristine fractal relics
Accessories – guild missions. It will take about 2 weeks to get one accessory.
Amulet – laurels, or laurels + wvw tokens
Weapon – craft. Will take about 80-100 gold, plus the cost of getting the crafting profession to 500.
Backpiece – Either through fractals, mystic forge, mawdry, or pvp

Good luck!

Edit: there are other ways to acquire ascended stuff, but I recommend this method for your first set.

I doubt legendary armor will let you switch runes, as the weapons don’t let you switch sigils. I agree that it makes the stat switching functionality of questionable value. I don’t think anet needs to change it though, as legendaries are prestige skins anyway.

Jahroots.6791:

This seems a bit misleading. The data in its original format more accurately represents their findings.

At T4 you do not have an almost 10% chance of getting an ascended box, you have four individual chances, with the greatest being 3.4% and the least being 0%.

Assuming the math is correct, I actually like the way OP presented the percentages. It’s a usable shorthand for “if I do a t__ fractal, then I have an X% to get an ascended.”

Doesn’t the enrage timer do exactly what you suggest? The bosses hit more when the timer his zero. I realize some bosses have mechanic-based timers as well (gorseval, sabetha) but your “solution” doesn’t change these bosses.

I’ve seen a lot of complaints and praise for raids in this thread, but very few instances of the raid community being toxic. The original post was about raid requirements, which I don’t consider toxic. I would consider toxic a stream of insults hurled to a player if they made a mistake. I have not seen that in raids.

Astralporing.1957:

Sarrs.4831:

Astralporing.1957:

Not sure why you now say that, because you were the one that brought it up as an issue.

Having selection criteria is not an issue. Having raid insights or legendary armor (effectively raid badges) as selection criteria is not a bad thing.

Reducing selection criteria to general availability through extended grind is an issue. With the selection criterias being opened you don’t know who is good and who is bad so you raise the selection criterias to the point where anyone who hasn’t done the grind gets the boot regardless of their ability. This is bad.

Anyone not meeting the selection criteria are getting boot now regardless of their ability, because no group that sets such criterias is going to interview/test those that won’t pass them. There will be requirements of full legendary set + insights if nothing changes.

If easy mode were made however, legendary armor would stop being such a criteria at all, because it would be pointless to use it as such.

Coulter.2315:

All of their complaints have been answered but they still would rather spend hours quoting and complaining rather than spend that time constructively getting the raid done for themselves

That’s because making suggestions on forums cannot be less constructive than engaging in an activity that drains all the fun and joy from the game.
And because the “complaints” have not been answered at all.

It’s honestly a bit difficult to address your position, because I’m not 100% sure what it is. You seem to be against raids in general, but I’m not sure why you want an easy mode.

And yes, all complaints have been addressed in this thread. The main ones being 1) It’s too hard! (Answer: but there’s a ton of easy and medium tier content already in the game) and 2) But my legendary! (Answer: All game modes have exclusive rewards, legendaries are of questionable value, they are super expensive, and raiders generally support alternate methods to acquire legendaries, just not easy mode. )

We’ve gone around in so many circles in this thread, I’m getting dizzy. Sign me up for closing it.

It’s become abundantly clear that the people who want easy mode raids only want the legendary armor. When you ask them to describe the content they want in the abstract it sounds awfully similar to dungeons, fractals, and world bosses.

For some reason, some people in this thread are against exclusive rewards in any form. Despite that every game mode has them.

I’m also finding that many of the pro-easy mode side are being argumentative just for the sake of it. Please lay out your proposal for an easy mode raid, with a reward structure, and we can talk about. No reason to quibble over side points.

Some people like hard content. Some people like easy content. Some people like exclusive rewards. Some people don’t. Well, the game has something here for everyone. Hard content. Easy content. Easily accessible cool skins. Cool skins not tied to a particular game mode. Cool skins that are tied to a game mode.

This is what the game is all about. Something for everyone. And that’s what makes this game so great. As someone above said, welcome to guild wars 2.

Torolan.5816:

Coulter.2315:

Torolan.5816:

Why should any company restrict a good to a certain set of people? That makes no sense. Anyone who has the money can buy a Mercedes, nobody cares if it is an heir or a selfmade millionaire.

Just read this again, read what you wrote.

[SPOILER] The price of the Mercades is a restriction on who can buy it…

As for your hunter/gatherer example, venison doesn’t grow on bushes – they result in different produce.

So? You won´t find a car trader that does only accept a currency that was won from MMA fighting or something like that. So Anet is the trader here and we are the customers who would bring the money. I indeed fail to see the importance of the source of money for the offering party here. Quite the contrary, the more people buy my stuff, the better for me.

How many people would eat vension if they had to hunt it on their own and other meat was available like it is right now? I guess you would not reach a full %. And hunting vension is hunting and not gathering, not even foraging.

I feel like we should avoid these types of analogies, as they are rarely relevant and contribute little to the discussion.

More relevant is that old legendaries were sellable on the trading post, while the new ones are not (and are mainly restricted to one game mode). There are pros and cons to this decision. We should also tie the legendary discussion back into easy mode raids.

Rivindor.7258:

First day in pugs. I provided food for the group and we get through the three avatars no problem with whatever builds people came along with. However, many people were not accustomed to adversity and so the moment we began dying at the actual boss, people began to flee the group.

It became a constant cycle of the team practicing, and getting the mechanics down, but then leaving, in which I’d have to explain the game plan over again to the newcomers. Eventually the raid turned into a roleplay toward the end… and, needless to say it wasn’t a productive day. I can say that me personally, I learned a fair bit about the first encounters, but the problem is convincing the other nine people that this is accomplishable.

I did encounter one noob who took it really serious, but when a large portion of the group began to express defeatist attitudes he left rather quickly. I was more patient, but when the roleplaying began I too had to depart.

Key takeaways though:
- No such thing as carrying, you yourself account for very little of the groups success
- GW2 people are impatient(was having vietnam flashbacks of my first Arah clears)
- Raiders are very toxic

And I don’t mean the group. Nobody in the pug was toxic, but we did get a raider join up, ask if this was a teaching run, and when we said we’re learning by doing he called us trolls and immediately left.

I did get a lot of positive feedback from the actual newbies for creating the group. People actually seemed relieved and said this was a great idea. But, very few actually did what it took to put in the work to capitalize on the opportunity.

I probably went through 3-4 sets of groups(only 2-3 remained from the core group) and, same result of people learning mechanics but then having to go. I’m not keen on trying this again for this reason.

I’ll stick to my dungeons as the only way I can see myself getting into raids is masquerading as a girl gamer to trick raid elitists into teaching me the runs and putting up with my mistakes…and I’d rather keep my dignity. Best of luck to anyone else who tries raids, but my advice… look elsewhere.

I think your experience is typical (how did raiders learn the fight?), but I’m not sure I agree with your takeaways.

Your post exemplifies exactly why (pug) raiders have high requirements. No one wants to waste their time when they already know the fight. You had to “start over” every time a couple of new people joined the group. Why would a veteran want to go through this over and over?

I’ll also note that most raiders went through similar trials when they were new, assuming they didn’t have a guild. I know I did. Again, I have no desire to waste my time learning something I already know.

I’m also not sure how the one raider you met was toxic. Rude (for calling you trolls), but he left immediately. No harm done to the group. I would not describe the entire raiding community as toxic based on one experience and on behavior that really didn’t hurt the group.

Astralporing.1957:

Absurdo.8309:

That said, I still don’t think easy mode raids are necessary.

Oh, i agree. It’s a weak argument, though, because, for example, current raids aren’t exactly necessary either.

Absurdo.8309:

As someone who plays all 3 areas of this content, I would not play both easy and hard mode raids. I would play a new dungeon/fractal though, even if it was easy. With multiple modes, there’s rarely an incentive to play both. Even now, I rarely find myself playing low level fractals, (a mode designed for scalable difficulty) and just stick to the 75+ fractals.

Oh, of course. But those lower fractal levels do exist, and people are running them.

Similarily, easy mode raids probably won’t be for you, but that does not mean others won’t be interested in them.

Yes, there may not be incentive to play both, but then it would be okay, since they won’t be aimed at the same people.

I think you misunderstand my argument.

Raids fill a niche that was not prevalent in the game (hard, instanced, pve content). Whereas easy mode raids would fill a niche already in the game (easy and medium instanced pve content).

Now I realize not everyone likes hard content. Heck, sometimes I also want to relax into a cof run. But as someone who likes both, I would rather see more fractals and dungeons. I can’t speak for others, but I’m less likely to complete the same content on an easier difficulty.

So I would see more fractals/dungeons as a win for raiders (more content to choose from) and a win for non-raiders (more easy and medium tier content).

As to some of the arguments in this thread —-

I’m resistant to “compromise” into easy mode raids. As I said above, I think it’s a suboptimal solution. Again, I think more dungeon and fractals is a superior answer.

I don’t think we can convince some of the non raiders in this thread, but we can identify philosophy. Some want access to any/all rewards in this game at an easy/medium difficulty level, and across all game modes. While I think this is a preference outside the norm (and generally outside gw2 historically) I do understand it.

However, even if I subscribed to this philosophy (and I’m somewhat sympathetic), easy mode raids are not the solution. The solution is to make everything sellable on the TP. That way, you could play how you want, and just buy the skin with the gold you earn. I’m actually not opposed to this solution (see gorseval aura), but I realize this implementation is unlikely.

Edit: This solution is already in effect since you can buy raids. So do the content you like, earn gold at your pace, and then buy the runs.

Blaeys.3102:

randomguy.1283:

I really think your focus on rewards and not fun is a HUGE problem going forward with this idea though.

I think this is worth paying attention to. There are two distinct discussions taking place in this thread – first, whether or not there should be an easier option to raiding and, second, should people who put in less effort have the chance to get the same rewards?

My stance is pretty simple. Addressing the reward first, I do believe greater effort should equal a different (not necessarily “better”) reward. Anet has even taken this approach in the past – with minis (Liadri, Aetherpath achievements), unique gear (living story achievements, aetherpath rewards, gold fractal weapons, etc), through standing out competitively (WvW tournament rewards, the PvP Llamas, etc), open world challenges (jumping puzzle titles and rewards) and with time investment (legendary weapons, etc). I do not see why raiding should be any different. Greater effort should be rewarded in some way (that doesn’t involved greater character stats, of course).

The true issue to me is whether or not their should be a more casual way to experience the content (actually doing the fights in some form). I look at this way. The only reason raids are branded as “difficult” content is because Anet originally took that stance.

In its purest form, a raid is just a 10 person instance. That is the sole defining factor of a raid (and I would add that the 10 person part is arbitrary as well, but that would be a different discussion entirely). So, why not take the same approach that they take to the rest of the game? Build it out for everyone – and then address difficulty.

Difficult content shouldn’t be solely confined to raids. And neither should easy content be solely confined to open world or fractals. They have the systems, the developmental knowledge and the motivation to make difficult content in EVERY part of the game.

So, I make this argument – build a game that everyone can play, and then look at how you can add challenge to every part of it. There should be fractal encounters (and even living story chapters) that are every bit as hard as the current raid bosses, just for smaller groups. They could even add open world content, guild missions, etc, that meet that same criteria (and I would argue, in the case of TT, they did in open world).

Now, the counter argument many might have to this is around developmental resources – but Anet themselves have addressed this. They said they want to focus future design on making the game deeper rather than broader (ie, perfecting and adding to the content systems they have in place today).

So, my advice to Anet – when the raid team and the living story team have completed their current projects, have them swap roles. Tell the raid team to come up with a design for the Fractal level 105 swamp end boss that rivals anything they have done for 10 player raids, while telling the story team to develop a toned down version of the raid story for more casual players. I know that is a simplified example and probably wouldn’t work exactly that way, but I think you understand where I’m coming from.

Raiding is just 10 player content. There is no mandate that says it has to be the hardest content in the game. On the flip side, the inverse could just as easily be true of single player or fractal content. There is nothing stopping you from turning up the dial and melting our faces with an optional fractal or story mode instance (fractals would be perfect for this).

So, I don’t see this as a “make raids easier” discussion. I see it as a “spread the love for everyone from casual to hardcore players” to every part of the game discussion.

I think this is the most persuasive argument for easy-mode raids. If this is the philosophy, I could get on board.

That said, I still don’t think easy mode raids are necessary. Like you said, there is nothing special about a ten person instance. Between fractals, dungeons, and raids, there is plenty of content at all skill levels.

And I’d rather ANET develop all 3 of these areas concurrently (with a variety of difficulty levels), than make easy mode raids. As someone who plays all 3 areas of this content, I would not play both easy and hard mode raids. I would play a new dungeon/fractal though, even if it was easy. With multiple modes, there’s rarely an incentive to play both. Even now, I rarely find myself playing low level fractals, (a mode designed for scalable difficulty) and just stick to the 75+ fractals.

Ohoni.6057:

Training wheels for raids? Well, maybe. But most raids are set up to stack mechanics until it gets progressively harder and harder. That is, the first phase of each fight is the training mode.

And yet numerous people can pass the first phase and not immediately pass the second, so clearly if it does train, it does so poorly. Some people enjoy failfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfail-succeed, others do not, and would decide early on that this process is not for them. An easy mode allows them to succeed relatively early on, and to learn from their successes rather than from their failures. This may not matter to you, but just accept as a fact that it matters to people who are not you.

An easier path to legendary? I think this is why people really want an easy mode. And, well, it’s not the best argument. “Let’s devote resources to develop an entirely different game mode, just so some players can get a tier of gear that provides no stat bonuses, is incredibly expensive, and for a skin that they don’t even know what is looks like.” This is why the legendary weapon team disbanded.

If the Legendary armor is interesting enough for raiders to care about then it’s interesting enough for non-raiders to care about. The argument is either that they should make it available to all players or to NO players, there is no valid argument that only raiders should have it.

To provide for easier content (that some players find more enjoyable)? This is already in the game – Fractals and dungeons. There is no difference between a 5-man easy mode raid and a dungeon. The only argument I’ve heard is “But I don’t get to fight sabetha!” Well, an easy mode would not be “sabetha” because it wouldn’t have the same mechanics. And we don’t have easy mode of other bosses, like lupi or the aether path foreman.

And yet there are easy mode versions of Mai Trin, Jade Maw, Thaumanova Anomaly, Archdiviner, etc. I beat Lupi the other night on my second try ever, he’s not all that hard, certainly not compared to Vale Guardian. Maybe you see no use in having an easy mode Sabetha, maybe the encounter would be entirely different for you, and that’s ok, you will ALWAYS have the hard mode available if that’s the version that appeals to you. Just accept as a fact that there are people who would genuinely enjoy an easier version that would never genuinely enjoy the existing one.

That said, if you want easy mode raids to have meaningful, balanced rewards, that somewhat teaches the normal mode, then that probably takes a bit more than just tweaking some numbers.

Having balanced rewards wouldn’t take more time, it just takes good sense. I mean, actually implementing it is just typing in what the rewards should be. The hard part is figuring out what they want them to be. But of course they can always tweak them a bit after launch if they are out of range. and just tweaking numbers is the best way to make it a teaching encounter, since if they change how anything actually operates then it would throw off any learning of the mechanics.

I accept that we have a fundamental difference of opinion. But your responses have severe weaknesses.

Please explain how you would learn from an easy mode that you could beat with novices on your second try. With the chance of failure, you know what/how you need to improve, because you, well, fail. After you succeed in an easy mode, there’s no incentive to learn.

All the bosses you described are in fractals, a mode designed for scaling. But no other bosses are like that. Personally, I think lupi is on the same difficulty tier as vale guardian. Even if it’s not, I’m sure there’s some players you can’t beat it. Yet there’s no easy mode arah.

And I think you’re proving my point here. Why do you want easy mode raids, when there’s already so much content at your skill level? Does all content need to be complete-able by the lowest skilled player? The median player?

Ok, all game modes in Guild wars 2 has unique rewards. It’s always been this way. If you don’t like that, then, again, a single player game with cheat codes is right for you.

I also think you severely underestimate the time it would take to polish easy mode raids. It’s certainly beyond tweaking numbers, as Gaile had already explained to you.

Swagger.1459:

Absurdo.8309:

Oh, I’ve missed these threads. The off-topic side discussions, the out of the norm demands- it’s great to be back.

I’m not entirely sure what role easy mode raids are supposed to fill.

Training wheels for raids? Well, maybe. But most raids are set up to stack mechanics until it gets progressively harder and harder. That is, the first phase of each fight is the training mode.

An easier path to legendary? I think this is why people really want an easy mode. And, well, it’s not the best argument. “Let’s devote resources to develop an entirely different game mode, just so some players can get a tier of gear that provides no stat bonuses, is incredibly expensive, and for a skin that they don’t even know what is looks like.” This is why the legendary weapon team disbanded.

To provide for easier content (that some players find more enjoyable)? This is already in the game – Fractals and dungeons. There is no difference between a 5-man easy mode raid and a dungeon. The only argument I’ve heard is “But I don’t get to fight sabetha!” Well, an easy mode would not be “sabetha” because it wouldn’t have the same mechanics. And we don’t have easy mode of other bosses, like lupi or the aether path foreman.

So why do we want easy modes again?

Read my op.

Nobody is asking to redo the entire game mode… This is not rocket science either.

See the boons you can use in the training area? That could easily be used. Timer settings? Easy too…

There are reasonable and simpler options to improve raids and generate interest.

I’m hesitant to speculate on the time it would take to generate easy mode raids. I believe all my counter arguments are applicable regardless of the time it takes to make.

That said, if you want easy mode raids to have meaningful, balanced rewards, that somewhat teaches the normal mode, then that probably takes a bit more than just tweaking some numbers.

Edit: Can we all agree to drop this golden fractal relic discussion? It’s very off topic, and only tangentially relevant. Who cares who was “right.”

Oh, I’ve missed these threads. The off-topic side discussions, the out of the norm demands- it’s great to be back.

I’m not entirely sure what role easy mode raids are supposed to fill.

Training wheels for raids? Well, maybe. But most raids are set up to stack mechanics until it gets progressively harder and harder. That is, the first phase of each fight is the training mode.

An easier path to legendary? I think this is why people really want an easy mode. And, well, it’s not the best argument. “Let’s devote resources to develop an entirely different game mode, just so some players can get a tier of gear that provides no stat bonuses, is incredibly expensive, and for a skin that they don’t even know what is looks like.” This is why the legendary weapon team disbanded.

To provide for easier content (that some players find more enjoyable)? This is already in the game – Fractals and dungeons. There is no difference between a 5-man easy mode raid and a dungeon. The only argument I’ve heard is “But I don’t get to fight sabetha!” Well, an easy mode would not be “sabetha” because it wouldn’t have the same mechanics. And we don’t have easy mode of other bosses, like lupi or the aether path foreman.

So why do we want easy modes again?

Here’s my two cents:

- We should not take into account patch days or world firsts, because they are too infrequent
- My interpretation of Crystal’s explanation (thank you for commenting, by the way) is that Monday was chosen because more players raid consecutively over the week (like Monday to Friday) or the weekend (Friday-Sunday).

And my opinion on why reset should be closer to the weekend (Thursday-Saturday):
- Anecdotally, more full clears happen at or around reset night. Thus, the actual day of reset is also important.
- My guess is that more people play on the weekend. Thus, I think it would more advantageous to have the reset around then, despite that it may disrupt consecutive raid schedules.
- Anecdotally, and as someone who pugs, I find more posts and higher quality pugs after reset, as opposed to right before (ie Sunday).
- Anecdotally, I don’t always have the time or desire to raid after work on a weekday.

And, as a question on ANET’s “consecutive raid” metric:
- Was this metric observed before or after the Monday reset was chosen? If after, then it may be hard to distinguish which is the cause, and which is the effect. That is, most players may raid consecutively on weekdays because Monday is the reset day.

I’d also like a Friday reset for raids – it is sometimes tough to get those kills Sunday night.

From dulfy’s AMA summary: increased on 26-50, slightly decreased on 51-75, but you have a new tier at 76-100, so your overall chance is increased.

Ok, I admit I continue to contribute to this thread because it is super entertaining. It’s interesting to see some of the thought processes here.

Regarding distrusting developer statements – I mean, if you are not going to believe developer statements that raids exceeded their expected benchmarks, then I’m not sure there’s much to argue about. Nothing here will convince you.

Regarding raid resource allocation – I’m not sure why non raiders think the small raid team is irrelevant. It shows that developer focus is not on raids. I’m also pretty sure that all wings were in some form of development prior to HOT. If all 3 wings were released with HOT, would you still think raids were a focus?

Some additional points:

- Other content in this game is hard. Arah. Aether path. Liadri. Halloween jumping puzzle. Those don’t have easy modes.

- All content in this game has unique rewards. Open world (map metas), WvW (wvw armor), PvP (glorious armor, pvp backpiece), Fractals (silver/gold fractal skins, backpiece), SAB (SAB skins), guilds (guild armor and weapons). Having unique rewards with raids is in line with the rest of the game.

- Tying legendaries to content is not new or unique to raids. Legendary weapons are mostly tied to pve. Backpiece to pvp (and eventually fractals). Armor eventually to raids.

And some additional arguments:

- Player preferences change. Just because raids weren’t in the game at release, doesn’t mean there isn’t an audience for them now. At launch, I liked open world and exploration. I was as far away from a hard core elitist as you could get. (I shamefully admit that I used to think a healing staff mesmer was good). But that was three years ago. I like GW2 combat – it’s part of what initially got me hooked. Now I like to apply it to more challenging encounters.

- It’s ok not to like everything in this game. I understand if you don’t like raids. Ok. But a lot of people do. Luckily, there’s other things to do in the game if you don’t like raids.

- Fractals and dungeons are far superior to easy mode raids. I’ve yet to hear any strong arguments here. The only response I get is that easy mode raids would be easier to make. While we don’t know whether this is really true, I believe there are separate teams working on fractals and raids. So we can get new fractals without tying up raids resources.

- Unless easy mode gives unique/additional rewards, there is no reason to run it, if you can already beat the normal mode. I don’t know anyone who runs infantile mode SAB, if they can already beat normal mode. Just not worth it.

- Legendary armor, while technically a separate tier of gear, is really just a fancy skin. Some in this thread want an easy mode partly/mostly because they want legendary armor. But, again, unique, hard to get, skins are nothing new in this game. And if we look at fun only (since I think everyone is capable of learning to raid), then it ignores the “fun” for other legendaries. Some people hate fractals. Some people hate pvp. Some people hate map completion. So they won’t get legendaries, unless they buy them or bite the bullet. Same with raids.

I’m going to go against the grain and say that I generally liked the mastery system.

So the most important masteries, like gliding and mushrooms, are the very first ones. So you can get those relatively quickly.

The others are mostly improvements to gliding, easier methods to defeat certain enemies, or access to special vendors or events. Not essential, but it does provide a sense of progression.

The poison mastery is the most blunt in what it does – you cannot go to X area without the mastery. These areas do not take up a large portion of the game. But I see them like getting a new item in any Zelda game – that item invariably allows you to access some portion of the map you couldn’t previously.

Now adventures. I think it’s what most people take issue with.

Yes, you’ll need to do some to mastery cap. No, you don’t need to do well in all of them. You can choose the ones to excel at. I’m terrible at shooting gallery, barely got bronze. But that didn’t stop me from mastery capping. When I decided I actually wanted to mastery cap (rather than getting it organically) I got all the strong boxes, did the easy adventures, and did some of the easy events. Took 2 days.

My only real complaint is that there’s no progression once you cap. I wish there was some sort of experience reward track, so the experience wouldn’t go to waste.

Thaddeus.4891:

Absurdo.8309:

If you looked at my solution, I buffed the weekly boss reward to balance the less of shard. Increasing the shard cap won’t fix the issue either since just doing the 3 wings once will reach the cap anyway. You would need to increase the cap to like 200 or more to incentive to run repeat run, which start to be a little too much according to some people.

I would be happy either way. Personnally, I prefer the shard reward, which allow you to buy what you want, than the RNG chance of dropping sometime nice or nothing.

I’m not opposed to a shard cap of 200, or even one as high as 300.

We’ve had some experience with a shard cap of 100 for only one wing. And I thought is was fine. I actually wanted to run bosses again to reach the cap. Some people think that’s a negative, because then they feel forced to go for the cap. I don’t. I think it increases the incentive to repeat bosses, and makes a larger player pool for those who raid later in the week.

I understand if some people think shards were not designed for this, and perhaps some of the pricing isn’t (With a shard cap of 300 you could earn an ascended piece a week. While this isn’t crazy, some may see it as too quick). But, personally, I think the main issue is the lack of incentive to repeat a boss. While increased rewards would be nice, it doesn’t really address this problem. (And, personally, I’d rather have increased repeat rewards than increased baseline rewards).

To put some numbers out there, I think a repeat reward equivalent or equal to 1-2 gold would be adequate.

I don’t think we need to devolve into name calling.

Guild Wars 2 is a theme park MMO. You don’t need to like everything in the game. I don’t really like WvW, but I realize others do. I don’t complain when they get resources directed to them. And if WvW becomes amazing (for me), then it’s one more thing I can enjoy about the game. Seems like a good deal to me.

I realize some people don’t like raids. That’s fine. But to say it’s been the focus is a bit of a stretch, and contradicts what ANET’s been saying.

I agree the content drought is a problem. The only thing I personally do in game is SAB (and that’s gone in a week) and raid. But I don’t think the content drought is raids’ fault, and, personally, I think raids have been a net positive for the game.

Thaddeus.4891:

TPMN.1483:

I have a solution :
Award less shards
On any boss:
Max for Phase 1: 1 shard
Max for phase 2: 2 shards
Max for phase 3: 3 shards…

Boss Kill: 10 shards.

Simple, very easy to understand – cant be too hard to implement either.
I think we get too many shards atm.

That’s my solution too, but they should introduce it with the 3rd wing, and implement some buff to the weekly boss kill reward. Because right now, the overall reward isn’t that great. The initial reward for raid were good, but over time it decreased. XP is useless for most people now and with half the reward in the first wing, the reward isn’t good enough anymore. They should keep the gold reward equal for all wing and not reduce it when a new wing appear. There is already enough incentive to do the new wing without that tbh. It’s new content that people are happy to try and learn after all.

I’m against reducing the shard reward. I think most raiders agree that the rewards are a little under-tuned. Reducing the rewards should not be the answer.

Again, I think the main problem is that there’s little incentive to repeat a boss. This can be solved by increasing the shard cap, or rewarding more on repeat runs. I would be fine with either solution.

Ohoni.6057:

I really think that more dungeons and fractals is far superior to easy mode raids. What are the counter arguments against them again? That it’s not the exact same content as raids? That seems like a ridiculous argument to me, as most content in this game is at a single difficultly level.

But again, some content, including the fractals you seem to like, do come in multiple difficulties. I think multiple difficulties are good, because it lets players experience the content, even if the mechanics of the hardest version are too stressful for them.

Not to mention that new dungeons and fractals would take considerably more time and effort to produce than what I’m suggesting here, meaning more time and effort removed from other parts of the game.

Just to be clear here since I asked for counter arguments. Yours are 1) Some content, like fractals, has difficulty levels. That’s good, since it lets players experience the content. 2) Dungeons and Fractals take longer to produce or would take developer resources away from other parts of the game.

Regarding 1 – Yes, fractals has difficulty levels, but, again, most content in this game is at a single difficultly level. That includes world bosses ranging from fire elemental to triple trouble, and dungeons ranging from cof to arah. Fractals was also designed with difficulty levels in mind, while other content in this game was not. Rather, you play content at your current difficulty level. For example, if you can’t handle arah, then you play cof instead. Similarly, if you can’t handle raids, you should dungeons or fractals instead (or, stick to the easier raid bosses).

Regarding “experiencing the content”- I’m not sure what you mean by this. The whole point of raids is to overcome various mechanics to beat the boss. And there is nothing stopping you from entering the raid right now to see what the bosses are like.

Regarding 2 – Lets put aside that there’s a team working on fractals. Let’s put aside that there’s a team working on raids. Lets pretend that we have a couple of developers, and we can assign them to work on easy mode raids, or dungeons/fractals. Dungeons/fractals is the superior choice, because:
- For people who do raid, it’s different content. It really wouldn’t be that fun to complete an easy mode and regular mode raid in the same week. I’m sure most of us would prefer something different (and something on a daily reset, to boot).
- For easy mode raiders, you still need to get 9 other people to organize with you. I don’t think this barrier is too high (given the difficulty you’re asking for) but it’s still three.

So we have a win (easy mode raids) – lose (no new content) or a win (easier content) – win (different content) situation. I’ll choose the win-win.

Regarding legendary armor – I’m guiltily glad that the discussion moved in this direction, because I think it’s the “true” reason people want an easy mode. I also think it’s the weakest argument.

This is a multiplayer RPG. Some rewards are going to be harder to get than others. Some rewards are going to be out of your reach. This has to be the case, otherwise players would have nothing to aim for. If you want to play a game where you can get any/all rewards at a difficulty you choose, play a single player game and use whatever console commands you want.

I think you’re getting hung up on the word “need,” saying that since this is a game, you don’t “need” to do anything. True. But we’re using “need” in the sense that, you don’t need legendary armor to complete any content in this game. It is not required or even really advantageous for any encounter. So you can do the entire game and not once feel the loss of legendary armor.

And the fact is, legendaries have anyways been gated behind certain content. For weapons, it’s mainly pve. For backpieces, it’s pvp (and eventually fractals). For armor it’s raids.

I know the you’ll say: but weapons felt different, I was already half way there by doing the content I liked. How is this different from the current situation? Some people hate map completion and open world. Others hate raids. So they just won’t get the reward. No big deal.

I’ll also note that the new legendary weapons and backpieces are even more restrictive in their acquisition, since it’s much harder to buy those. You can buy raid runs or the old legendary weapons. And don’t tell me raiders don’t deserve to sell runs, when the weapon precursors were essentially a random drop.

Rising Dusk.2408:

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

Then what they have to do isn’t upping the shard cap, but the boss kill rewards instead.

Bingo.

Both solutions can be an appropriate answer to the problem. I still see an increased shard cap as superior because it increases the incentive to run a boss multiple times in the same week. That increases the player pool for those who raid on the weekend.

Ohoni.6057:

I think this thread can be boiled down to: if you told me everything easy mode raiders wanted in the abstract, the answer would be fractals and dungeons.

The answer for you, perhaps, but not for them, and since you’re content with what we already have, the answer for you is of less importance.

So the only two main points of contention: the content itself is not the same, and legendary armor.

Yes, which like saying that the main contention in a food item is whether it tastes any good. True, obvious, and more important than other factors in the discussion.

As for matching the exact content, I think we can fairly quickly dismiss this argument, as no other content, other than fractals and infantile mode, is like this. There’s no watered down lupi, aether path, triple trouble, or teq.

Except for SAB and Fractals, yes. And also story mode chapters with Challenge motes. And Queen’s Gauntlet bosses with gambits. But aside from those, there’s no difficulty setting on any activities in the game, so if only 3-4 parts of the game have difficulty scaling, why should a 5th?

I really think that more dungeons and fractals is far superior to easy mode raids. What are the counter arguments against them again? That it’s not the exact same content as raids? That seems like a ridiculous argument to me, as most content in this game is at a single difficultly level.

I’m not sure a consider challenge motes akin to an easy/hard mode, as there’s generally no incentive to run them again. Also, I’m not sure if you’re aware, but most raid bosses have a challenge/achievement tied to them.

The gambits on the Queens gauntlet is well taken. Still, there was no easy mode liadri.

Edit: As for compromise, I think there’s no reason to compromise with a bad idea.

Rising Dusk.2408:

Thaddeus.4891:

Sorry, but that’s a complete lie. I respect you dusk, but that’s just non sense.

I have a number of raid-primary friends and their guilds who grind to 100 shards and then do other things with their week and time. They’ve repeatedly told me that if the shard cap were higher, they’d feel ‘compelled’ to do it. It’s the same reason why so many people like the 15k daily AP cap; when they hit it, they feel able to do other things.

Let me reiterate, though: The shards are not the rewards, the once-per-week chests are. The shards are simply so people who have bad RNG can still get shinies eventually. Obtaining shards is, by design, not supposed to be a grind or something to be farmed. It’s supposed to just happen so that over multiple weeks you’ll be able to buy your item. If you want to repeat bosses multiple times per week, that’s your prerogative. If the sole reward of helping a friend beat a boss isn’t good enough for you to help your friend, then that’s that.

I strongly feel that this is one of those cases where people who want higher Magnetite Shard caps don’t properly understand the intent of the system and the psychological impact on the players that comes from increasing it. The entire purpose of the 100 shard cap is so that completing 2 of the 3 wings with no failures will cap you out, and so that if you struggle a bit and need extra tries you’ll get it on just 1 wing. Those numbers are very specifically chosen, and they’re working as-is.

Once we have another expansion and another raid, it will use a different currency and have its own shard cap. When we get to that point, people who want to raid exclusively in GW2 will have even more option for rewards before capping for the week.

EDIT:
@ deSade: I do agree that having no other means for Viper’s trinkets (or other HoT-exclusive stat combinations) is garbage. Raids should not be mandatory for purposes of gearing out a character.

Shards are one incentive to complete a raid multiple times in a single week. If anet doesn’t want to increase the shard cap, then there should be a higher reward for multiple completions. It doesn’t need to be super high – I think something equivalent to 1g would suffice. Having some incentive to complete a raid multiple times is good for everyone, as it increases the raid population pool later in the week.

For the record, I think the shard cap does need to be increased.

I think this thread can be boiled down to: if you told me everything easy mode raiders wanted in the abstract, the answer would be fractals and dungeons.

Don’t need class roles? Check.
Don’t need optimal gear? Check.
Can be completed with other random people? Check.
Low stress? Check.
Boss encounters with unique mechanics? Check.
Unique(ish) rewards? Check.

So the only two main points of contention: the content itself is not the same, and legendary armor.

As for matching the exact content, I think we can fairly quickly dismiss this argument, as no other content, other than fractals and infantile mode, is like this. There’s no watered down lupi, aether path, triple trouble, or teq. A single difficultly – but given the variety of guild wars 2, there’s always something at your skill level.

As for legendary armor, well, most raiders are not opposed to (eventually) alternate methods to achieve them. But they have the same stats as ascended. So really just a skin. And the other legendaries with HOT only have a single method to achieve them too.

Hypairion.9210:

Ashen.2907:

I would rather see the resources spent on dungeons.

same, rather than useless easy mode raid…

Same, and I actually think this is a win-win for everyone.

When you ask people to describe what they want in easy mode raids, the answers you get, in the abstract, sound awfully like dungeons.

So: non raiders get more content at their skill level. Raiders get more (daily) content. Who loses here?

STIHL.2489:

LegACy.1296:

STIHL.2489:

Hypairion.9210:

So food…Best food is expensive (but i don’t think you know what food we’re using, go look at toxic sharpenning Stones for example).

LoL, I, like anyone who can invest 10 gold into crafting, have a 400 ranked Chef. Nothing is that expensive to make.

Anyway, why would you use Toxic Sharpening Stones? a power and condition based food sounds less effective then just using a straight up Power food.

Dude, seriously. If you don’t know anything about some stuff, stop pretending like you know that stuff, it doesn’t help your case.

As for food costs, the most basic foods (truffle steak + sharpening stone) costs 25s each, which totals to 50s. However some professions like elementalist and condition-based class used more expensive foods like Toxic Focusing Crystal which costs 70s or Seaweed Salad Bowl which costs 50s.

Yeah, if you’re good you’ll probably only need 2 of each foods to clear the entire wing. But really, no one ever runs raid for the gold reward, like no one ever do WvW for the gold reward.

Two Points:

Toxic Focusing Crystals which I can make, and I use on my Necro, for WvW, cost roughly 70 Silver for 5 of them, mainly due to the Crystalline Dust, as I have never had to actually buy the spore samples because they drop from a harvesting node.

Raid for the Gold I am sure you all turn a grand profit, just like I do when I run Fractals, even tho I needed to invest a lot of Gold into in Agony, Food, Oils, Potions, and that is not even addressing all the Ascended Gear & Items needed, which, as many of you have said, are not in fact needed for the raid.

Please spare us all your sob story about how much it costs to run a raid that drops gear has a net worth of 100+ Gold attached to it, along with a ton of other special and unique rewards.

It’s pitiful that you all still cling to some need for an ego boost to lock Legendary Collections behind the raid as well.

And Honestly, if you are going to bring up the Fractal Back Item, I Run fractals because they are fun and profitable not to stroke my kitten over a back item, if you are not doing that for the raid, you’re doing it for the wrong reasons.

According to gw2spidy, it costs 2.35 gold to make 5 toxic focusing crystals. And 5 toxic focusing crystals sell for 3.74 gold on the tp.

The ascended drops do not drop every time, and their value is not fungible. If I get an ascended dagger drop, but I already have one, then the drop is worth 0 gold to me, despite that it would take 80-100 gold to craft a new one.

It’s possible to make a profit off raids, but I think you are overstating by how much. It all depends on how quickly you beat the bosses (so you use less food). Even so, you could probably make more gold in silverwastes, if you spent the same amount of time. And, the bosses have a weekly lock out, so the rewards are not as repeatable.

So most raiders are not in it for the gold. There are much better ways of making gold in this game.

Ohoni.6057:

Sird.4536:

Alveda.8409:

Ardenwolfe.8590:

DeceiverX.8361:

One word:

Elitism.

And this is why the game, which prospered so much at launch, didn’t feature any kind of “elite” or arbitrarily “difficult” content. And also part of why, HoT, an expansion featured as pleasing the “hardcore” crowd has failed in the eyes of a bulk majority of players when looking at sheer numbers.

Strictly speaking, not many people care. And those that do are likely too exclusive to not care about anyone not involved in their personal affairs.

This. Give this poster a prize.

No, he doesn’t deserve any prize. The expansion is meant for the end game crowd, where you continued your journey. Would you add more content where you can pretty much faceroll everything with by spamming 1? The reality is GW2 playerbase is so used to faceroll everything. Anything,that is remotely challenging, is demanded to nerf so the playerbase can faceroll. Just because you can’t faceroll the content, it doesnt mean the expansion is a failure.

This. Give this poster a prize.

Why not just agree that there are two different audiences for the game that want two very different things, and that so long as both audiences got plenty of new stuff out of the expansion, it was a success?

I mean, the people that enjoy challenging content that advances the challenge level of previous stuff got the raids, and the Mordrem enemies, and the Chak, and the Garrant, and the general HoT open world stuff, so they got what they were looking for in those bits of the expansion, and the more casual low-difficulty players got. . . gliders, I guess? Gliders are cool.

Ultimately though, this isn’t something that can be solved by arguing about it on forums, you can’t be “right” on this issue, it all comes down to how many players actually ended up being pleased by what HoT was. If it was a small number, then they failed with it, not matter how much you might like it. If it’s a very large number relative to the total population, then it was a success, even if it wasn’t a success for you. We don’t have that numbers, so we can only guess where ANet intends to go next with it.

If they do nerf the mobs then this game would have taken a huge step backwards.

You forgot the “. . .for me” part there, it’s vitally important to the accuracy of the comment.

I actually agree with the spirit of the post, but not the ultimate conclusion. It’s actually refreshing to find some common ground.

Yes, there are a lot of different audiences for this game! As for me, I like instanced group content. Raids did fill that niche for me. (Although fractals and dungeons post HOT are a disaster).

I can see why people who liked open world are upset. I don’t think this content was aimed at the hard core crowd. I also don’t think the enemy difficulty is the ultimate problem (I don’t see huge complaints about the same enemies in story) but it may be a contributing factor. I think the problem is that every single map is event driven, on a timer, and has champion protected hero points.

I mean, not everyone likes being forced into a group. And they certainly don’t like having to play a map according to a schedule. All the new maps require this. And it’s a problem.

There seems to be some promising fixes on the way. Soloable hero points. Shorter timers (the timer for TD is ridiculous).

But yeah, right now HOT causal content is in a dire state. I don’t think this is the fault of raids (which are generally well received by that community) but the ongoing content drought and poor open world maps.

Speaking for raids, the best class is always the ability to play multiple classes. If you only play one, and the group already has that role filled, then you’re out of luck.

That said, I usually find druids and chronos to be the most in demand. But again, most groups only take 1 of these (with the exception of 2 druids on matthias), so you limit yourself by only playing one class.

Torolan.5816:

And it was as wrong then as it is now, Absurdo. I am/was an avid fractal runner and always thought how stupid it is to put the ascended backpiece into it. A content either can stand on its own feet by being accessible and fun without getting a subvention in the form of reward or it is destined to fail. Although I am not that much supportive of easy raids, there was definitely an easy mode in Fractals, you cold grind lvl10 fractals until you got enough fractal coinage and essence of the mist stuff to buy your way in.

And for the question of why I want it, I want it because the feature is nice and I don´t care for rune swapping. I could live without it of course, but when Anet offers me a forum to vent my protest, why should I not use it?

Fair enough that you can offer your opinion.

As others have said, rewards can drive content. And almost every game mode has exclusive rewards tied to it, not just fractals. I also find it a bit hypocritical to simultaneously argue that “content should stand on its own without rewards” and “I want to access the same reward through X content.” While it may be possible to reconcile these two views, they are in tension with each other.

Some content has easy modes (fractals, SAB) but most don’t (Arah, queens gauntlet). I think that’s ok, as long as there is content at a variety of skill levels. Which there is.

If you are only going after legendaries for the stat change, and don’t care about runes, then you could buy 1000 sets of exotic armor for the same price.

Hypairion.9210:

STIHL.2489:

Absurdo.8309:

The real question is why you want a reward that provides no increase in stats and is just a fancy skin. Exclusive rewards is nothing new in Guild wars 2.

Counter Question: Would you be fine, if the Raid gave you an Armor Skin, as opposed to Legendary Armor?

hmm, it’s a theoritical question, since raid reward legendary armor. But, for me, the answer at your therotical question is yes.

so, now, in practice, since raids reward legendary armor, i dont want it to be rewarded in a way that will remove all the effort put in learning raids, just to please some lazy people that want all for no effort.

I agree with this answer.

Torolan.5816:

Sird.4536:

The solution is not to raid more till you enjoy it it is find a group of people or a guild either on the forum or Reddit and give it a shot. There are now posts on Reddit where people are teaching raids. If you don’t enjoy interacting or socialising then no one can help you.

Everyone is capable of raiding. The problem of ‘I can’t play how I want because I don’t have paper armour’ is not that of the players. Enrage timers make it so you have to have a decent amount of damage to avoid a full wipe. ‘Elite’ players did not create that. The only other obstacle is time. Raids reset once a week and if you can’t find a a few hours over 7 days then don’t come complaining here because that’s no ones fault.

I don’t care who has access to the armour as long as they put in the effort that I put in to aquire it.

Let me ask you a question then:
Let us assume that I already have a guild, am social and friends in the game.
Why should I look for another guild of complete strangers to do a content I dislike for a reward I would like to have? Is that your definition of fun?
Anet shone until recently with a kind of railway station fun. The train came in, you took a short ride to the other side of the town, and went to a bar there and had fun. When you were drunk and/or broke, you stumbled out and back into the train who brought you back home.
With raids, you take a train ride from a Munich railway station to a Barcelona railway station where the railroad company has offeered you a new tyoe of uniform. Except that you do not drive a fast train but a steam engine that does not manage to do some mountain passes unless there is enough steam in the tank. So when there is not enough steam, you roll back in the railway station with the additional kick in the balls that maybe the guy that shovels coals quits and you have no other coal shoveler at hand.

On the other hand, I don´t care how much effort you put into your raids. That is your own fault as much as it is mine to not put effort into it. It is the job of Anet to see which number of people are supportive of your or mine position and offer either enough content for the both of us or the risk loosing one of us. It´s that simple actually, and I guess that MO tends more in my direction lately, but I could be wrong with this.

The real question is why you want a reward that provides no increase in stats and is just a fancy skin. Exclusive rewards is nothing new in Guild wars 2.

dubstax.9102:

Personally I think that raids should be able to be done by everyone. This doesn’t mean that a reward for a raid should be easy to obtain or that the raid itself should be easy. As it stands now though I feel like raids are mainly for the very dedicated PvE elite players with plentiful in-game currency and gear. Maybe I am wrong. I don’t feel like ArenaNet should make game modes with an “either or” mentality. If I spend a lot of time in World vs. World, I shouldn’t feel like other game modes are above my reach.

Most people only have a finite amount of time to spend during the day and ArenaNet doesn’t give players much convenience to multitask game modes. This being said, players paid for the full game, not just the specific mode they enjoy.

I disagree – I think it’s good to have hard content, as long as there is easy content to complete too. The idea being that once you master the easier content, you can progress on to the harder ones. So here, for example, you could master open world, then fractals, then raids. It’s ok that not everyone is immediately able to complete all content on day 1.

So just to sum up the position of the non raiders in this thread:

1. I don’t like raids
2. But I want the reward
3. So make easy mode raids, or give the raid rewards to an easier tier of content

I don’t want to straw man, but that’s what I’m seeing from this thread.

Put that way, it’s clear that this position is at odds with the rest of the game, given that:

1. Almost everyone has certain content they don’t like
2. That content almost always has some exclusive reward
3. But most people see that as OK, since they just play the content they do like.

MashMash.1645:

Hyper Cutter.9376:

“raids” in general in the MMO world have a long-standing bad reputation (a lot of it deserved), and so bringing raids to GW2 carries a lot of baggage.

Also, a lot of people specifically liked this game because it avoided the “raid or get out” mentality of many big-name MMOs.

That’s why i liked GW2 – specifically “because” it didn’t have raids. I know plenty others did too. I raided a heap in other other games, thousands of hours, for years and years, wiping, learning, clearing and killing. The neverending gear treadmill, etc, etc. It’s not that I can’t raid or am lacking skill.

I got sick of it. And now its arrived in Guild Wars 2. Like some plague. As i had long feared.

I’m just ignoring it. I really hope it just dies and goes away tbh. I don’t have an issue with raids in gerneral, but rather with them in GW2. Just kitten off. Hopefully the constrained resources ANet seems to have will just see the raid team moved elsewhere and raids quietly die. If we had to lose Legendaries, we can lose raids – even less do raids.

I’ll quote myself here:

There’s a lot of hate towards raids in this thread. I want to share my personal experience.

Raids (and currently, SAB) are the only things bringing me back to guild wars 2. I would not play anymore if map metas or fractals were the only things to do in pve.

I like the combat in Guild wars 2. I like dodging. I like moving and attacking at the same time. I like not having to worry about 4 rows of spells.

Raids epitomize that kind of combat.

I understand that some people don’t like raids, for some reason or another. I just ask that you don’t destroy them. That’s why people like me comment on these threads. If raids disappeared (or if they stopped making them) I would quit guild wars 2.

And for what it’s worth, I’ve never seen the kind of elitism lambasted in this thread. Just yesterday, I formed a matthias pug group: “LFM MATT, exp, play 2+ classes.” We beat it after 45 minutes. And for several members it was their first kill.

So please don’t destroy raids. I understand if you don’t like them. Luckily, 95% of guild wars is not raids. You still have fractals, dungeons, map metas, world bosses, pvp, and wvw to enjoy.