Guild Wars 2

curtegg.5216:

Anet would benefit employing two obvious solutions. One wonders why they don’t do it.

1) Make all dungeons, raids, and world bosses have two modes. Regular like now (except remove time gates from raids) and hardcore mode (preserve time-gate in raids), and
2) Implement tiered loot based upon 2 factors. Numbers participating and performance. If you solo a dungeon you get 5x the loot as a player who does the same dungeon with a full party. Do a world boss with fewer players or down him faster than the average (like get Tequatl to battery phase at 10 minutes left on the timer) the participating players get better loot. The end result is better loot for the good players while letting casuals participate in all aspects of the game.

Elitists get the goods and casuals get to participate in all aspects of the game. It’s a win-win!

Anet wise-up!

These are not the win-wins you exclaim them to be.

1. Timers are rarely the problem for groups who can’t beat raids. It’s almost always the mechanics.

Groups wipe on VG because of green or blue circles. On sabetha because the miss throws or his the flame wall. On sloth because they don’t manage poison. Etc. The only fight with a dps race is gorseval, but I think that’s ok.

2. This is a terrible idea for two reasons.

First, it discourages players from welcoming new people to content. Map chat: no one else come to tequtal! Raids: we can beat this with 8 people, don’t want you. Dungeons: we can duo this, don’t want you. You shouldn’t be upset when more people want to join your event.

Second, a time limit tied to rewards narrows acceptable builds in raids. Want to bring an engie? Too bad, other classes do the job better. Want to bring a guardian? Too bad. 4 eles, 2 druids, 2 ps, 1 mesmer, 1 Rev only. I’d rather let groups decide their own composition in beating raids. Right now, you can. Tiered rewards? No thank you.

Blaeys.3102:

A lot of people would rather attack and belittle anyone who dares to criticize raids than admit there is an actual issue here.

That is a common debate topic where the goal is to shut down the conversation rather than directly address the topic raised. It is typically a sign of a weak position and desperation more than anything.

To people like the OP, I say don’t let people frighten you away from expressing your opinion.

It doesn’t matter what raids were originally designed for. It doesn’t matter if a small group of people consider them successful. What matters is the impact they are having on the overall endgame, their impact on the morale of the playerbase and making sure EVERYONE’s opinion is heard.

If people have issue with the current state of raids, then they should make those issues known. If people disagree with those issues, they should debate those issues directly. Making it personal about the poster – no matter what the situation – is just a bad debate tactic.

As an example of good feedback, see Rising Dusk’s post above. While I disagree with what he is saying (I don’t care what they were meant to do – I think what is important is the real impact on players in the game), he did something almost no other person did in this thread. He kept it about the topic and debated the points rather than attacking the person.

The OP’s posts contain no substance. There’s almost nothing to talk about.

First he says he likes dungeons better than raids but doesn’t explain why.

When prompted, he makes vague allegations about elitism and the meta. Neither of these points are fleshed out.

There’s some surface discussion about the meta by the anti-raiders, but it’s still just vague allegations that the meta is destroying the game.

Then some raiders come along to dispute the OP’s claims on elitism. From their description, he was hard to play with.

I think OP’s topic was covered. I actually think your talk about “discussion” is just a mask for the weak arguments on OP’s side.

Blaeys.3102:

Hyperreliance on the meta hurts the game for some (me included). It limits creativity and makes it more a game of clones (copy-paste builds) than the pseudo-uniqueness we used to have.

It also develops barriers in the community where they really didn’t exist before. By designing a segment of the PVE end game (complete with story) for a small subsection of the playerbase, they risk alienating a lot of players, which – and you can debate his if you like – they are definitely doing (the OPs post is just one example).

The biggest concern is what happens next. If raids – as they are currently designed – are released on a semi-regular schedule, then they risk having them become the perceived end game in GW2. That is bad because of the limited appeal of raids in their current format.

Locking people out of that content (even perceptually) will result in disillusioned players who feel like the game is no longer really designed for them.

The answer – that many don’t want to accept – is to incorporate tiered difficulty across multiple game modes. Expand raids to include a wider base of player (no matter what raids were originally intended to do) and look at expanding things like story steps, fractals, etc to include much more difficulty content (alongside what we have now).

Would this take extra developer resources? Of course. Would it be worth the time? I really think it would.

TL;DR Feels > Reals?

It looks like your recent arguments have shifted towards bashing “the meta.”

The meta builds are, by definition, the best builds suited for the content. Of course players will want other players to play them. It increases your chances of success. Just like players want team mates to play meta builds in pvp. It increases your chances of winning.

This is doubly true for newer players. Since they don’t know their class or the mechanics of the fight as well, the meta build can act as a crutch.

Once players know the fight, they can vary from the meta build based on preference. Necros choose death or blood magic (or both). Revenants choose their off legend, or go condi. Eles choose between staff and fresh air. Guardians choose their weapon set. Or the dozens of other minor trait variations.

Plus, you (and the OP’s) statements are demonstrably false. You don’t need meta builds to beat raids. But, again, pugs prefer them because they are, by definition, the best. They don’t owe your special snowflake build anything.

And there’s other new endgame content. New fractals. New maps. New open world events. You can bring your snowflake builds here and press one. Sometimes I like to do that too. But not for all content.

Blaeys.3102:

Once again, I raid every week and I most definitely am not anti-raid.

Every time anyone talks about changing anything with raids, the same 2-3 people immediately pounce and start yelling about “anti raid” or “you have no idea what youre talking about.”

It isn’t about chest thumping and who can prove they are the best raider through their forum comments. It is about providing feedback and, hopefully, inviting multiple perspectives to the conversation.

I think raids need some work. I think with some minor tweaks, they could offer a challenging and more open experience without some the barriers that exist in the current model. I respect that others do not feel that way.

And, please please please make arguments without making it personal – or going on the warpath as soon as someone says something about change. All that does is discourage people from taking part in the conversation – which isn’t good for anyone.

It’s no longer a conversation because anti-raiders:
- don’t offer constructive criticism
- do not take advice on how to beat raids
- give hilariously false statements
- only accept the discontinuation of raids or easy-mode as a solution to their problems

It’s not a personal attack to ask why you don’t bring non-meta builds. If you offer up your raiding experience for your argument, prepare to be challenged on it.

And, to the substance of your original post, it’s hilariously clear that you don’t need meta builds to beat raids. I’m surprised you offered that argument.

Blaeys.3102:

Raids are poorly designed. They reinforce a tired meta game where “skill” is measured not by how good you are as a player, but rather your ability to copy and paste the highest dps build from a third party website.

This gamemode could have been something unique and amazing. Instead, they chose the same tired system used by every other raiding game out there. The result is not only bad for raiding, but is having a negative impact on the rest of the game as well. Half the fun of GW2 was making a semi-unique build based around how you enjoy playing – and still feeling like the entire game was open to you.

Raiding – in the format they chose to implement – changed that. It turned the game into a me-too where copy paste skills are the most important gameplay element. I only hope they see this and change course before continuing down this path.

Pugs generally accept only the meta builds because, by definition, they are the best builds for the game mode. Why would a pug accept a sub-optimal build when there are other players willing to play the meta ones? And, even in pug runs, some commanders allow for flexibility.

For guild/friend runs, you can run whatever special snowflake build you want. The enrage timers are really generous, so you don’t need to maximize dps.

I was under the impression that you lead guild runs. Why don’t you allow snowflake builds there?

Edit: Seems like this comment is full anti-raid — nothing constructive, and mis-identifies any problem.

Astralporing.1957:

OnizukaBR.8537:

Then someone post a video of 10 tempest on the worst gear ( come one they are hitting like 180 – 300 damage lol ) clearing the hardest boss by far ( Matthias ), then suddenly its “well not everyone can do it”

They were doing it in full sustain gear. Basically, you can go full dps to clear the timer, or go full sustain to survive through it, but if you go middle way, you lack both and you wipe.

This statement is false, which you would know if you actually raided.

Several groups take 2 healers, which is, gasp, between full dps and sustain.

This also has nothing to do with the topic (class diversity). Your anti-raid bias is showing.

Swagger.1459:

Absurdo.8309:

Swagger.1459:

Seriously peeps, there is nothing wrong with having difficulty settings at all… and having scaling rewards for the different settings… and getting more players involved with endgame content and increasing retention.

Raids are not like players needing to compete for a 200k prize pool where only the best of the best twitch players can win… Raids are end game content to extend the life of the game for players and for fun.

Other game companies were smart enough to be inclusive with raids, and the devs here are smart enough to figure it out and implement… Anet is not some dirt poor company struggling to raise funds. It’s not like they need to devote millions of dollars and 50 devs either to open the raid doors more… Anet is also capable and competent and creative enough to do whatever they put their focus on. Let’s not make it seem like they would have to rewrite the game engine, or lack the talent, to make difficulty settings happen…

Given the lack of new content in other areas of the game (notwithstanding the recent patch, which I do enjoy) I am concerned about putting resources to something with minimal impact at best and harmful to normal mode at worst.

Ok, fair enough, but this difficulty setting thing doesn’t require redesigning every part of the raid wings.

Timer adjust options.

5 player, 10 player, 15 player options.

Enemy level scaling options.

Allowing players to be rezzed option.

Boons option like in aerodrome. Debuff option preventing boons.

There are creative ways to do this that don’t break the bank or require a year of polls, meetings, and cdis to figure out and do. Not saying that in 5 minute it’s done, but It can be done creatively.

I’m happy to be corrected, but I don’t think anet has the systems in place to quickly add these options.

Plus, determining the reward is a whole other can of worms.

Scipio, I may have lost track in the back-and-forth, but what problem are you trying to solve? Is your solution just an easy mode raid?

Just trying to understand your principles.

For instance, I see no reason why raids need to be easy, when we have other easy content. And I find new easy content is far superior to recycled easy content. Finally, there’s other hard content in this game, like arah and Aetherpath, that has no easy mode.

I find it easier to engage (and disengage) when I know where the other person is coming from.

Blaeys.3102:

Zoid.2568:

Raids should not be about killing as fast as possible. It should require you to perform in a way that benefits the members of the raid. i’d say the key word is synergy.

As of now the raid wings require synergy, but is on a kitten timer, which makes it so bad I want to puke.

The timer is just a bad excuse for ArenaNet’s laziness. They should improve creating difficult content without something like adding a timer that requires the raid to have maximized dps.

IF the raid had a stage which the dps in the raid needed to do something specifically that only dps can do, then that would be fine. THOUGH, the whole raid (boss) fight should not be defined by how fast the dps can decrease the boss’s HP bar through the whole fight.

I wouldn’t say quite as harshly as this, but I agree – this is the number one issue with raids right now.

I wish Anet would use the same level of creativity in raids that they did when the game launched. Break away from the norm or lazy model used by other raiding games and give us something truly unique that fits with the rest of the game. It can still offer eye bleeding difficulty, but not at the cost of build or playstyle diversity.

It’s also untrue for most fights. Your group can choose to play it safe and risk the enrage timer. The enrage timer will not wipe you, except in gorseval.

I’m not sure that the easy-moders should make their stand here.

The commander chose to teach the encounter to a random group of people.

The commander wanted to have a shot of completing the encounter.

The group already had a bunch of warriors.

The commander wanted another class to fill out the group. (Ironically, some easy-moders complain about class diversity in raids).

OP comes and complains in the forums. He does not offer anything constructive. He does not join another run (note, he wasted almost 0 time in his attempt), he does not seek out training guilds, he does not form his own group.

Swagger.1459:

Seriously peeps, there is nothing wrong with having difficulty settings at all… and having scaling rewards for the different settings… and getting more players involved with endgame content and increasing retention.

Raids are not like players needing to compete for a 200k prize pool where only the best of the best twitch players can win… Raids are end game content to extend the life of the game for players and for fun.

Other game companies were smart enough to be inclusive with raids, and the devs here are smart enough to figure it out and implement… Anet is not some dirt poor company struggling to raise funds. It’s not like they need to devote millions of dollars and 50 devs either to open the raid doors more… Anet is also capable and competent and creative enough to do whatever they put their focus on. Let’s not make it seem like they would have to rewrite the game engine, or lack the talent, to make difficulty settings happen…

Given the lack of new content in other areas of the game (notwithstanding the recent patch, which I do enjoy) I am concerned about putting resources to something with minimal impact at best and harmful to normal mode at worst.

Gudradain.3892:

Absurdo.8309:

If one or two people can’t make your static each week, it’s really easy to find a pug 10th. Make whatever requirements you want, and boot them if they’re bad.

Finding a 10th then kicking him because he’s bad then finding another 10th can easily takes 30 minutes. That’s 30 minutes of wasted time. Here is my break down for this 30 minutes :

- 5 minutes to find the 10th and get him ready (class, spec, food, joining instance, teamspeak)
- 20 minutes to test him, give him chance and realize he’s not ready for a clear run
- 5 minutes to find another 10th

I’m also pretty generous in that breakdown as I found that it usually takes way longer than 5 minutes to replace a player and my group usually give people a chance for much longer than 20 minutes…

If you put the 10th in a non-critical dps role, it’ll reduce your chances of failure.

It seems like this is a complicated solution to a simple problem. It’s much simpler to:

1. Have more reliable members
2. Get alternates in advance
3. Get a pug 10th

Blaeys.3102:

Absurdo.8309:

leads me to think most are just anti-raid.

Almost no one here is anti raid.

Just because people want to see something changed doesn’t mean they are against that thing.

As the question about what people want, I think that has been asked and answered a dozen times over -

- A way for people who do not spend the same time or conform to the meta to realistically have a chance at experiencing the content in a fun setting.

- A way for all players to experience the raid story (regardless of how slim that story is)

- Establish a stepping stone in terms of difficulty between fractals and the current raids.

- A return to the game’s philosophy of “this is my story,” in which there aren’t walls between the different PVE communities in terms of accessibility (and for the 100th time, no – Arah and Aetherpath are not the same thing as raids – as has been outlined dozens of times already)

I realize you disagree with all of these points, but that doesn’t mean there aren’t others who still see a need for this.

And, finally, again, I repeat what I said earlier -

How does adding a lower tier raid experience – that everyone understands completely is meant to be less challenging – somehow invalidate the prestige of higher tier raids?

I really cant understand why people are so opposed to this.

Vinceman.4572:

Fortunately, there are only few people wanting this easy mode and I hardly believe that these few ones would shift Anet to such drastic changes. It’s all laying in the future but referring to past changes the group of opponents is way to small comparing to others that really had success with their wishes.

I actually see the opposite being true, but I’m willing to concede that I am probably colored by my perspective. However, I think the same is true of you.

Reality is, neither of us has any idea how many people are for or against the idea of tiered difficulty raiding. I think time is better spent arguing the pros and cons of the concept rather than worrying over statistics we don’t have.

Re meta: You don’t need to use meta builds in raids. And there’s plenty of content where meta builds are not expected.

Re story: You can experience that right now by going into a completed instance. Heck, the one-liner that ties raids to the main story is in a completed instance.

Re stepping stone: High level fractals provide a stepping stone. Easier raid bosses, like escort, provide a stepping stone.

Re “this is my story”: I mean you can debate whether this content is as hard as raids (I think they were at release), but that doesn’t change that anet has put much more relevant story info behind that content.

Myself, along with several others, have already explained how an easy mode would directly harm raiders (there’s a post a couple above yours that does a good job). Here’s another summary:

1. It takes away resources either from new raids or new living world content. Put another way, it adds nothing for people who already raid or people that have no interest in raiding.
2. It splits the raiding playerbase, and provides less diversity of skill in raid groups
3. If the rewards are imbalanced, it may destroy regular raids.
4. If it also provides the rewards unique to raids, it may destroy regular mode and the achievement from beating regular mode.
5. If the rewards are balanced, or if there’s little reward, then there’s no staying power with easy mode — it would be a one and done, a waste of resources.
6. There will still be players who can’t beat easy mode

There are solutions to all your concerns that don’t involve easy mode raids. But I think you’re so fixated on a silver-bullet solution to problems (which may or may not exist) that it’s clouding your judgment. Heck, on the concern for spirit shards, your solution was easy mode raids, not the simple and obvious solution of a spirit shard track.

This bias, intentional or not, leads me to believe that many easy-moders are anti-raid.

I also don’t like this idea — it may even lead to more exclusivity, because each additional player needs to justify their spot in the group.

If one or two people can’t make your static each week, it’s really easy to find a pug 10th. Make whatever requirements you want, and boot them if they’re bad.

Dear easy moders,

What “problem” are you trying to solve?

I see 12 pages of “discussion,” but I’m still unsure what the easy-moders want. It’s hard to focus the conversation when all I see is complaining. (That is, the conversion is not constructive).

Is the problem difficulty? Because, well, there’s plenty of easier content. Heck, we just got new fractals, story, and a meta map. Which is far superior than recycled content.

Is the problem rewards? Because the new map has the new ascended stats (I think making them unique is an oversight). And there are plenty of ways to get ascended stuff. And other legendaries are tied to particular content.

Is the problem lore? Because the raid story is not essential to the main story. And it’s available in completed instances.

Is the problem organization? Because you’ll run into similar problems with an easy mode.

And, finally, Why does this content need to be easy? Other hard content, like arah and aether path, is not easy.

I’ve tried several times to nail down what exactly the problem is, and what the easy moders want. But there’s only complaining. Not constructive, and leads me to think most are just anti-raid.

Dinosaurs.8674:

Absurdo.8309:

HoneyBadger.5691:

Jumpin Lumpix.6108:

I am an experienced raider with 15 yrs of experience

[…]

TLDR: raid content is too gimmicky (not hard but filled w/specific cheese mechanics + you need specific builds), makes players discriminate against pugs and not take/teach new players. No way of really telling who is good vs bad, your’ either EXP or NOT. Dunno why they chose 10 man content to be difficult, why not 2 or 5 man content? No auto join system, trying to get a group and organize is painful if your not in a raid static/guild

You make a lot of good points. Can’t really disagree on anything, anet class balance is beyond atrocious for pve and if they’re going to have raids, they need to implement raid specific balance (that does not affect other pve/wvw/pvp) to tweak dps. It’d be as easy as altering damage from each ability.

I think all classes have raid builds they can bring. There are probably 10-20 builds you could bring across all classes seems pretty good to me.

I love raids and do them all the time, but honestly the class balance for raids is pretty meh. Druid + warrior + chrono is optimal in every fight with the same roles. Revenant is used only because of the F2 button. Engineer is optimal for nothing but VG. Thief has DPS + breakbar and abokittene crap besides that. IMO ony ele, guardian, and arguably ranger are in a decent place for raids with multiple builds and utility options that are useful and unique and don’t trash their usefulness to bring. Everything else is a one trick pony (even if that trick happens to be really good).

To be fair the classes besides maybe revenant were designed a long time ago when raids as we know them would never have been expected. But that doesn’t change the reality of the situation, so I also think it would be great to have raid specific balance changes.

---

I respectfully disagree. True, some classes have only one good build for raids. But across all the classes, there’s plenty of diversity. Since there’s no gear grind, you can maintain multiple classes with little/no continual investment.

Here’s builds that I would accept into a raids group:

Ele: staff dps, fresh air dps, healer
Mesmer: tank, boon share
Necro: condi (death or blood magic)
Ranger: Healer, condi
Engineer: condi
Thief: staff dps, d/d dps, condi
Revenant: power dps (with any off-legend)
Warrior: power ps, condi ps
Guardian: Hammer build, other dps symbol builds

There’s a lot to choose from if you don’t limit yourself to one class.

HoneyBadger.5691:

Jumpin Lumpix.6108:

I am an experienced raider with 15 yrs of experience

[…]

TLDR: raid content is too gimmicky (not hard but filled w/specific cheese mechanics + you need specific builds), makes players discriminate against pugs and not take/teach new players. No way of really telling who is good vs bad, your’ either EXP or NOT. Dunno why they chose 10 man content to be difficult, why not 2 or 5 man content? No auto join system, trying to get a group and organize is painful if your not in a raid static/guild

You make a lot of good points. Can’t really disagree on anything, anet class balance is beyond atrocious for pve and if they’re going to have raids, they need to implement raid specific balance (that does not affect other pve/wvw/pvp) to tweak dps. It’d be as easy as altering damage from each ability.

I think all classes have raid builds they can bring. There are probably 10-20 builds you could bring across all classes seems pretty good to me.

In addition to the advice above (join a guild, groups aren’t that hard to join), you can always make your own group with whatever requirements you want.

I have formed/joined several groups (and beat the boss) with descriptions ranging from:

LFM Sloth
LFM VG, exp
LFM Xera, ping 50+ insights.

It also seems you’re having some problems getting your class/build into groups. What classes do you bring? Things like power scrapper are not in high demand for pug groups.

Finally, some self-reflection never hurts. The one common factor across all your attempts is you.

Blaeys.3102:

Astralporing.1957:

Vinceman.4572:

One last note to organization: Sure, there are times when the whole lfg asks for chrono tanks, but usually, if you set the right requirements and you have several multiclass players with you, you don’t need very long to organize. I pug weekly and in my groups we are good to go after 5-10 minutes and need another 10-30 minutes to kill a boss depending on the group.
This Monday I pugged W1 once again, 15 minutes organization because the leader was very calm and sedate + 45 minutes clearing time. Nothing to complain, imho.

That’s only when you get a group that is already expreienced. You won’t get to that stage without needing to get past that organizational hurdle at some point in your raiding career, though.

Which will become harder and harder as time goes on, people become less patient with new raiders and new raids result in fewer people running the older ones.

The logical answer is an interim level raid difficulty that a. serves as a training area for new raiders and b. offers the raid experience (story, interesting mechanics, etc) to those not wanting to (or not able to) put the time into the more advanced tiers.

I see the most training runs for VG, the oldest raid boss.

And I see the opposite with training runs: since the experienced players are so experienced, they’re willing to take on less experienced players, because the don’t need much from the newer players to beat the boss.

Arguments from the anti-raiders would be much more constructive if they identified actual problems, rather than posing hypothetical ones.

Blaeys.3102:

fishball.7204:

15% reduction isn’t really going to be enough for those groups who can’t kill VG now.

They can’t kill usually because (a mix thereof):

- They miss greens
- Tank pulls too slowly to edges
- CC too slow
- People get ported and die on damaging AoE
- Bad Tank
- Healer not healing enough
etc

Pretty much nobody hits the enrage timer and then dies because of that. If you get that far, you can kill VG because you understand all the mechanics and after a few more wipes can probably execute them properly.

It’s an extremely reasonable assumption that 15% damage reduction will not change much and would still be too hard for most people that can’t kill VG now.

It would shorten the fight time in those phases where you have to deal with those mechanics, reducing the likelihood for error.

But, yea, it may not be the right path to take. It may require reducing the overall damage the green circles (or similar mechanic in other fights) do or lowering the number of people needed in them to 2 or something – or doubling the time people have to get to the green circle before it explodes. There are a lot of ways to go with it.

But would it be possible? Of course it would. How much effort and balancing it would take – and where is the cutoff where it would no longer be realistically worth doing – those are questions only Anet can answer.

But, again, I think it worth dealing with. Making raids more appealing to larger groups of people is good for the game (reduces the “content drought” issue) and for raiding in general (more people get a taste and start taking steps to becoming harder core raiders adds to the pool of potential pugs).

Or it makes the content droughts even longer. Either more resources are taken from raids, or more resources taken from living story.

And we’re talking about a mode that’s not meant to have much staying power.

I think you are vastly underestimating the amount of thought this endeavor would require. In fact, Gaile warned about making this mistake.

How easy is too easy? Is the unbound guardian too easy?
Is it easy enough? Will groups still wipe on the mechanics?
What about the reward? How to we balance those?
Will players continue to play this content? Well it last for years, like dungeons?

And, ultimately, what player population would this serve? A group of players who can’t even organize into a party of 10? Who find the open world version not enough?

At best, I find the easy-mode arguments not thought out very well. At worst, I see a group of people who simply dislikes raids and wants to discontinue its development.

But what I find across both groups is a failure to identify a problem. Anet has provided solutions, pretty good ones, in my opinion.

Boss too hard? Try one of the easier raids. Or open world. Or fractals (one dev even said the new swamp was meant to be a stepping stone into raids).

Missing lore? Find a completed instance. Or talk to the NPCs that give a recap. And the raid story is a side story anyway.

Swagger.1459:

TexZero.7910:

Again, quote context is about AG’s and the New Legendary Crafting system which had flaws which have been addressed. If you still want to harp on this you can send me a PM or I’ll just PM a mod as this is completely unrelated to the topic at hand and frankly disturbing that you think you need to pull off topic quotes out of context to somehow validate yourself.

And raids have flaws that still need to be addressed. You are fighting for raids to be exclusive, which happens to alienate much of the playerbase.

Difficulty settings in no way impacts your enjoyment of raids at all, but you fail to see that there are average players out there that are turned off by the raid design and lack of features such as difficulty settings.

You either look out for the average and casual players throughout the game or you don’t, and raids are part of the game so those average and casual players should be looked out for too right?

Among other reasons, difficulty settings split the player base and slow development on new content.

There is tons of easy and medium tier content in the last patch, what’s wrong with that?

And, personally, I enjoy bloodstone fen when I’m in the mood for easy content. However, I would not enjoy an easy mode raid, because it would be content I’ve already done that week.

While I don’t think this is the biggest issue in the world (as others have mentioned, you only need to beat one raid boss, and escort counts), I think the ideal solution is a spirit shard track that players can select if they’re unwilling or unable to complete the masteries.

Blaeys.3102:

fishball.7204:

Yeah about that enrage timer and DPS dependent elements:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bEcVtSo0-H8

But yeah sure it’s the meta keepin you down mate sure sure

This is a ridiculous comparison – and even the people involved would tell you that. They did it simply because it is ridiculous.

Doing things like this take the same (probably more) level of planning and build tweaking that speed grouping takes. Instead of going super heavy dps focus, they took a super heavy defense focus.

Removing timers simply allows more build flexibility. You don’t have to go 100% dps or 100% defensive in group composition. You can still do these things if you want to spend 3 minutes or 2 hours killing the boss, respectively, but their would be room for other options (with a gold, silver, bronze reward system in place for taking that extra effort).

It would allow for less flexibility if you wanted the highest tier reward. You would need to maximize dps.

I want the option of beating matthias in enrage by playing it safe.

I want the option of beating sabetha in enrage by meticulously completing cannons.

I want the option of beating gorseval in enrage by going to all the updrafts.

I want the option of beating vg in enrage by playing it safe with circles.

I can’t speak to the other bosses, because I’ve never been enraged in them. But allowing it actually opens up more class compositions not less.

The reason why people prefer to complete the encounter as quickly as possible is because you deal with less mechanics the faster you beat the boss. Fewer opportunities to make a mistake. But it’s certainly an option to prolong the fight — a tradeoff worth it in some circumstances.

Blaeys.3102:

Absurdo.8309:

You cannot PHYW in all dungeons, and succeed in a reasonable period of time.
You cannot PHYW in all fractals.

When limited to the PVE content, I do not agree with either of the above.

You can complete any dungeon. Speed running may be out, but “finishing in a reasonable amount of time” – that’s definitely possible. I know this because Ive been in many groups that have.

And fractals use a tiered difficulty scaling – exactly what people are asking for here. In fact low level fractals are all doable with level 10 characters (Ive done it with a guild group for fun). All of the actual content is accessible – with challenge coming from higher levels.

As far as PvP and WvW, I could also argue that tiers exist in the form of ladders and rankings, but I don’t think you can really compare PvE and PvP content. They really are two separate games.

I do not think inexperienced players, in whatever gear/build they wanted, could beat HOTW, SE p2, AC p2, CM, COF p3, Arah, TA forward, and aetherpath.

You think these dungeons are easy because you’ve played them for years. You think inexperienced players can beat them on their own because you taught them and carried them.

I wasn’t always good at dungeons. I wasn’t always good at raids. I spent four hours in my first aetherpath run. Days of failed attempts in arah. Days/weeks for some raid bosses. Hours killing those two bosses at the end of SE p2. Failed runs because of the traps and hodges burrows in ac. They were all hard at the beginning.

Yes, I can beat them now in whatever build I want. But people are doing that with raids too. Low-person parties, class stacking, green gear, whatever.

And even so, you could likely get a guild group to run with your snowflake build, as long as it wasn’t crazy.

It’s always been a process of adapting your build as you gain experience. So now, yes, you can PHYW to beat dungeons (and raids). But it wasn’t always that way. You had to learn the mechanics of the instance and how to play the game. I think you’ve forgotten that. And it’s probably been a long time in gw2 since you were put in that position.

Blaeys.3102:

Nana.9512:

thrag.9740:

Absurdo.8309:

Raid story would not give you much insight into the current story.

But, if your actually care enough, it’s all there in a completed instance and summarized at the beginning of wing 3.

I saw plenty of teaching runs in lfg today — you can learn to raid if you want.

I think you missed what I said. We don’t want to waste the time of another player. It would be nice to be able to go in and experience and learn mechanics on your own time.

You can actually always go into a raid an just experience everything on your own. The raids themself are not that difficult, once you understand the mechanics.
The problem of the raids is, that it need 10 people to complete (or less very good people). My own guild has difficulties with finding 10 people for raiding :/
A mode for 5 people might be a solution, but could still be hard.

For the story part, the raid you play not as the raid commander, but as a totaly unknown group of soldiers(?). So in the living story it’s like your character hasn’t expirienced the raid at all and does not know, what happened there.
Hints for the white mantle activity existed in the silverwastes, where you could find bandit badges with the white mantle symbol

I agree with you on one point. The problem with the current raid design isn’t difficulty. The fights in themselves aren’t really that demanding.

The problem is that certain mechanics (most notably, enrage timers and other dps dependent elements) significantly punish anyone who doesn’t conform to the “more damage” metagame. After three years of being able to play builds that we have grown attached too (for whatever reason), this content effectively removes the idea of “play how you want.”

The best example of this is the escort event at the start of Stronghold of the Faithful. That fight allows for more build and group diversity, yet remains fun.

And all they would need to do to make it “more difficult” like the other raid fights is add a timer.

I would like to see them make a compromise that could benefit all types of raiders, and fix the meta issue. Remove the timers (and look at other dps dependent mechanics) and replace them with a gold, silver, bronze reward system based on how fast the encounter is beaten.

That way, the super focused hardcore raiders would still have the challenge and reward they do now, but groups who may want to play a little differently aren’t overly punished for doing so.

I think you may be putting on some rose-tinted glasses here.

You cannot “play how you want” (PHYW) and beat all content, unless you are already skilled.

You cannot PHYW in wvw, and succeed.
You cannot PHYW in pvp, and succeed.
You cannot PHYW in all dungeons, and succeed in a reasonable period of time.
You cannot PHYW in all fractals.

I’m not sure why a “compromise” is needed for raids. If your complaints are about meta, there’s plenty of flexibility. If your complaints are about difficulty, then there’s plenty of easy and medium tier content. Like, just maybe, a new living story chapter, a new meta map, and new and redesigned fractals.

And, of course, that does not stop anyone from learning raids. I saw plenty of learning posts last night and within my guild.

But, apparently, that’s not enough. Let’s disavow new content and focus on making difficulty levels for every piece of content in this game. I’m sure it wouldn’t get stale.

Blaeys.3102:

Absurdo.8309:

All I’ve seen are anti-raid complaints.

And, once again, this isn’t about anyone being anti-raid. I know it makes the argument easier if it is simplified, but that isn’t the case here.

I respect that you do not feel the raid ties directly to the living story. There are people who feel differently. The forums are here so that they – as well as you – can express those opinions.

After playing through the raid and the story, I see a direct continuation of the story in the Living Story Season. I – and several other posters – have outlined those connections multiple times above.

I don’t want raids to go away. I think they have a place in this game. I just do not see the current raid model as sustainable long term – and I want to bring up the points I think will fix that now. We see too many good things die due to lack of large scale player support for them. If raids are going to survive, they need better mass appeal.

As it relates to this thread, they have to be more careful about disenfranchising people from the story by leaving them out of parts of it. While you see the connections as minor or insignificant, someone who cares more about story will see it differently.

If you feel the conversation has run its course, then simply do not be a part of it any more – its existence will not hurt you in any way. But, there are those that feel a need to continue this dialogue. Respect that they are entitled to those opinions and to having their voices heard.

Some spoilers ahead.

Lately, all I’ve seen is “let’s have a discussion.” But, really, there hasn’t been a discussion for several pages.

Zero constructive posts. I actually think anet did a good job in making the story accessible. But, there’s only posts about complaining and how important the discussion is.

Very few explanations on what the actual problem is. Prior to today, only vague assertions about the white mantle. I actually didn’t even know Lazarus was mentioned in raids. I looked it up on the wiki. The reference comes from the completed instance after the final boss. Seems accessible to me.

And that’s ignoring all the other white mantle activity in open world recently.

And, as someone who knows almost 0 gw1 lore, I don’t even know who Lazarus is. But I expect anet will explain in future episodes. I don’t need to play gw1 to have the “holistic” experience.

So, yes, this argument seems so incredibly weak, that the simplest conclusion is the people making it are just anti-raid.

If someone actually cared about lore, they would have set out to beat the raid, or ask someone to open a completed instance.

thrag.9740:

Vinceman.4572:

thrag.9740:

My entire guild has basically taken a 6 month break, we came back with living story 3, but it seems to continue from the raid story. We probably won’t be playing unless we can experience the raid story first.

Your assumption is wrong. The LS3 starts where the HoT story ended.

As I said "it seems ". There are things in the living story I don’t understand. Why does my character assume the explosion is from a bloodstone? Why does my character say white mantle are involved? Am I missing it somewhere in the story? What is informing my character of these things.

Absurdo.8309:

thrag.9740:

I support an easy mode that literally has no rewards, only existing for story purposes (also shouldn’t get achievements from easy mode).

My entire guild has basically taken a 6 month break, we came back with living story 3, but it seems to continue from the raid story. We probably won’t be playing unless we can experience the raid story first.

This would not produce any staying power for your guild. You would complete them once and be done.

Yes, we would complete the raids, and then feel free to play living story 3. The staying power isn’t from raids (which are slowly produced at a rate of one every few months) but by the living story (which in the past has been every 2 weeks). So it would make more of us come back and stay at least for the duration of ls3.

Malediktus.9250:

Story is like the least important part of the game, it does not provide any longevity or replayability to a MMO at all. So I do not understand why some people are obsessed with story.

Think outside your own bubble, all I can say.

Additionally, an easy mode with no rewards has other benefits. My own guild is only 5 friends who know each other in real life. None of us want to waste the time of other players. An easy mode would allow the 5 of us to go in, learn the encounters, and then join other groups without being as much of a burden. This could be a good way to get more people to try raiding.

Raid story would not give you much insight into the current story.

But, if your actually care enough, it’s all there in a completed instance and summarized at the beginning of wing 3.

I saw plenty of teaching runs in lfg today — you can learn to raid if you want.

Blaeys.3102:

Absurdo.8309:

This argument is hilarious.

I finally finished living story today, and there is almost 0 connection between raid story and living world story.

The argument seems so weak, that, in my mind, whoever makes the arguments seems disingenuous and anti-raid.

Please avoid making statements about the people posting. It really only serves to stifle the conversation and browbeat people into not expressing their opinions.

Again, believing that something needs changed or improved does not mean people are completely against that thing. In fact, I don’t think many would be as adamant or concerned if they didn’t care about raids.

It isn’t raiders versus non (or anti-) raiders. It’s more nuanced than that. Most sides (and there are definitely more than 2) have brought up some good points. Let’s debate those points on the merits of arguments – not by trying to make it about the people posting personally. That really is counterproductive.

After playing through the living story, its extremely difficult to take your argument seriously.

The only connection is white mantle overtones in raids, and one npc. That’s it.

And, again, not one constructive post in this thread how to make the raid story more accessible. They already put all the lore in a competed instance, and have a summary at wing 3. Seems like they did a good job to me.

All I’ve seen are anti-raid complaints. Please close this thread.

Blaeys.3102:

TexZero.7910:

the I don’t raid crowd

I do raid – every week. As, I’m sure, others who are critical of raids do as well.

This isn’t pro versus anti-raiding. It never has been (except in some very rare cases).

This is about wanting to see certain improvements to the system (which I respect you and many others do not see as improvements).

But, again, it isn’t about being for or against raiding. You can like something but still see a need for change.

Honestly, almost all easy mode raid arguments just seem anti-raid to me.

If your strongest argument is “story-telling,” then that doesn’t say much. Because, again,

- Almost all story elements are in a cleared instance
- The raid story is summarized at the beginning of wing 3
- The raid story has extremely little to do with the main story of the game

You ask for a “compromise” for story-telling, but ANET has bent over backwards to accommodate people like you.

thrag.9740:

I support an easy mode that literally has no rewards, only existing for story purposes (also shouldn’t get achievements from easy mode).

My entire guild has basically taken a 6 month break, we came back with living story 3, but it seems to continue from the raid story. We probably won’t be playing unless we can experience the raid story first.

This would not produce any staying power for your guild. You would complete them once and be done.

This argument is hilarious.

I finally finished living story today, and there is almost 0 connection between raid story and living world story.

The argument seems so weak, that, in my mind, whoever makes the arguments seems disingenuous and anti-raid.

Jitson.6051:

Lol I just got kicked from a raid group because I haven’t done it before. Some background: I recently started getting into doing dungeons, CoE has become my favorite. Yeah I know, late to the party, but they’re fun, and with the new Dungeon Frequenter achievement, I think the rewards are balanced and reasonable, and encourages variety, which I love =). However there are few people doing dungeons anymore because supposedly people are doing Fractals, Raids, or the easy-broken Octovine meta.

Fractals are pretty fun, but I find the scale level system obtuse, and I have too many characters, and not enough time to farmgold/craft, to care about about getting enough Ascended gear and Agony Resis to do the higher tier fractals where the rewards are actually worth it.

But then I learned that with Raids, you can save up the raid currency to buy Ascended armor, which I’m starting to care about, after I realized that you can change the stats relatively cheaply. I was like awwright! I can slowly get the ascended gear I want, without all the ridiculous crafting/farming.

So LFG, I try to join a group looking for Druid. Ranger is my first char, I’m pretty proficient in dungeons. First thing the comm asks for is insights
Me, “You mean my mastery points? How do I ping that?”
The comm pings “143 Legendary Insights”.

I reply, “sorry I don’t have those, and I wouldn’t keep them anyways since I don’t care about legendaries, am I gonna get kicked? lol”
The comm “Yeah, well you should keep them anyways, lots of raids ask for them. And sorry we’re an exp group, not looking to carry anyone”

I’m literally lmfao right now. I understand asking for 80s in dungeons, because it simply makes things faster, you’ve unlocked all your skills, probably have full exotic and a decent build. But holding on to a currency that I don’t care about, just so I can get into a pug? Go kitten yourself. Good luck waiting for another Druid.

I hate to break this to you, but the squad leader is 100% in the right on this one.

First, the squad is most likely looking for a healing druid. I doubt you were set up this way, especially after running dungeons.

Second, healing in a raid takes some getting used to, and a good druid can make or break a run. As this would have been your first ever, you just don’t have the experience. It’s much easier to learn on a dps class.

Third, even assuming you had the proper build and equipment, you’re just not experienced in raids. The group is not looking to teach someone — they want a quick kill. That’s their right. I recommend a teaching run or a guild to learn the encounter.

Blaeys.3102:

Please stop assuming that people are anti-raid simply because they disagree with some elements of how raids are currently implemented.

If many of us were anti-raid, we would be call for the removal of raids. While I have seen that a few times, it is very very rare.

In truth, most of the posters I see are very much pro-raiding. They just have concerns about how it is currently implemented in the game. Wanting to see something improved (even if you disagree about how those improvements manifest) is the exact opposite of anti-raid.

I want to see more support for raids, not less.

As for the Arah/Aetherpath argument, we’ve addressed that many many times. There are huge accessibility differences between that content and how they have implemented raids, most notably the use of enrage timers. If they had implemented the raids in the same way they implemented Aetherpath (one of my FAVORITE things in the game), I would have absolutely no issues with them. I have said this every time you have brought this argument up. The comparison between raiding and that content is faulty.

So, to repeat I DO NOT HATE RAIDS. I like raiding. I want to see more people raiding.

None of that changes the argument people are putting forward in this thread, however. The current story arcs began in the raid. While that experience may not be 100% required to play and understand the game, it is still an important part of the current story experience. There are players left out of that experience that feel disenfranchised and much less enthusiastic about what we are doing now in game because of that exclusion. I know this because I hear from them daily.

So, to repeat just because someone wants to see something improved does not mean they hate that thing. In fact, the exact opposite is true. So please stop the silly argument that people hate raiding just because they want to see some changes.

Almost every argument I’ve seen in this thread and others is consistent with simply being anti-raid. There have been zero constructive suggestions on how to make lore more accessible. There have been zero constructive suggestions on improving the mechanics.

Here’s why the other side just seems anti-raid:

- Complaints about lore even though all of it is available in a completed instance
- Complaints about lore even though it’s summarized in wing 3.
- Complaints about living story tie in before it was released, suggesting bias
- Complaints about living story tie in even though the living story stands on its own without raids
- Complaints about story even though story has been behind hard content before
- Complaints about lore from people who were actually able to see the lore. Where are these lore unicorns?
- Suggestions to discontinue raids
- Suggestions to eliminate all lore and story flavor from raids.

Seems anti-raid to me. And zero constructive suggestions in this thread. We should probably close it.

Eponet.4829:

Jerus.4350:

I find it funny that people are calling Arah accessible content. From what I remember Pre-HoT there weren’t many doing it, and the general sense I got from people new to the zone was just dread, and a broken back for me.

Overall difficulty doesn’t seem much different other than the fact that one good player could solo Arah for you where you can easily kill your raid if you don’t know what you’re doing.

PS I miss doing Lupi normally, and especially the hardmode that is a group full of new players trying to range Lupi in phase 2/3.

You touched on the main difference. The raid mechanics aren’t difficult individually, the difficult part is getting everyone to learn them, which unfortunately, some people aren’t able to do. This inherently excludes people that don’t want to upset others, where they could just learn to do them on their own (Speaking of which, some of the more boring dungeon bosses were a ton of fun to play solo).

Soloing dungeons isn’t something that everyone could successfully do right away, but it’s something that they could work on and experience in their own time until they did get it. With raids, 90% of it is finding the right people in a system that has so few ways to learn without causing commotion.

I’ve hosted learning runs for Vale Guardian, Gorseval, and Slothasor, and because the phases only trigger after certain health thresholds, almost every learning group doesn’t even see everything about the encounter due to simply not reaching it.

So, in summary:

- You agree it’s ok to have lore/story elements behind hard, possibly inaccessible content
- Some players can’t solo dungeons, just as some players can’t beat raids (I can’t solo arah, for instance)
- There was no outcry then
- Unlike dungeons, all raid lore is in a completed instance and summarized at wing 3

Seems like people are using this issue as a proxy to hate on raids.

Eponet.4829:

Absurdo.8309:

Blaeys.3102:

A good number of people feel differently. They feel left out of something important.

While I stand by the statement that the raid was most definitely tied directly to the Living Story (it was in fact the introduction), what really matters is that people are feeling excluded from experiencing (again, important word) part of the story.

And that is something that Anet should care more about, imo.

No reals, only feels?

I don’t think people genuinely hold these views. I think they’re just anti-raids.

Where were the complaints that all dungeons have lore and story elements?

Where are the complaints that aetherpath, arguably the hardest dungeon in the game, directly tied into living story and hinted at living story season 2?

Where are the complaints that Arah had the bloodstone and important dragon lore?

There wasn’t any. Because these instances contained minor story elements. They contain more story than raids. You could do the current living story and not miss anything.

Even the most minimal amount of story or lore would not satisfy the anti-raiders. Your standard is a grey blob in a grey dome.

There wasn’t any because these were all easily accessible content. Some might be more difficult than others, but you could actually get through them on your own for the major story based parts, or with literally anyone that you come across for the few dungeons that did have impassable gates.

With raids, you need a large number of people that actually know what they’re doing, which is an incredibly restrictive requirement.

This is not true for aetherpath and arah. Both, to me, seem to be a similar difficulty as raids. You’re certainly unlikely to beat them “with literally anyone that you come across.”

Edit: and I doubt the average player could solo a regular dungeon path

Widdle.2694:

Before the patch i had
14*7=98 – every simple slot
3*10=30 – 3 attuned slot
2*11=22 – 2 infused slot
=150 AR

now since amulet AR is gone i have 143 but have no idea how to maximize the AR again. any suggestions ?

You should aim to 14 +9’s (assuming you want both weapon slots filled) and 6 +7’s.

Convert your +10’s and +11’s to +9’s. You have enough to get your 14 + 9’s.

12 * 9 + 6 * 7 = 150

Blaeys.3102:

A good number of people feel differently. They feel left out of something important.

While I stand by the statement that the raid was most definitely tied directly to the Living Story (it was in fact the introduction), what really matters is that people are feeling excluded from experiencing (again, important word) part of the story.

And that is something that Anet should care more about, imo.

No reals, only feels?

I don’t think people genuinely hold these views. I think they’re just anti-raids.

Where were the complaints that all dungeons have lore and story elements?

Where are the complaints that aetherpath, arguably the hardest dungeon in the game, directly tied into living story and hinted at living story season 2?

Where are the complaints that Arah had the bloodstone and important dragon lore?

There wasn’t any. Because these instances contained minor story elements. They contain more story than raids. You could do the current living story and not miss anything.

Even the most minimal amount of story or lore would not satisfy the anti-raiders. Your standard is a grey blob in a grey dome.

hardy.7469:

Ranael.6423:

Blaeys.3102:

Everything that takes place in Bloodstone Fen – and, for the most part, in the Living Story steps – is a direct result of what happened in the raid.

Could you make a summary of episode 1 and raid story to be more precise on that please?
The reason for the Commander to go there, the explosion, the investigation, the chase of Caudecus…. nothing is a result of the raid. Should the raid not have existed, only Benett would be dead now, nothing else would have changed!
This is no direct result.

Don’t know if you played the LS S3 story, but the reason for the explosion and the twist at the end is a direct result of the raid. Everything the White Mantle was doing in the raid is directly tied to the surprise at the end of the first S3 chapter and whatever future content tied with that.

Irregardless, whether one believes the lore/story in the raid is “vital” or not is just semantics. What really is the issue is that NO story content should be locked behind a raid.
While lore is behind things like dungeons and fractals, there’s a much larger barrier to get through raids to see story.
I don’t know why anyone would be against the idea of letting all players have easy access to any and all stories (and world maps for that matter). Whether delayed (such as giving broad access to the clear state of the raid already in the game to all players months after the raid has been released) or in tandem with the raids release.

There’s no reason not to do this, especially when such features are already in the game (said clear state).

And again, while is can be debated that it’s not “vital” is certainly helps with the context, as is it being a much easier way to fight content droughts than making all new content.
Also the raid will become dead, we all know it will when the next raid comes out, and then the overworld area of the raid just becomes a waste of space.

ANet can do what they want. I’m merely stating that I think this sort of content planning for story and map expansions is a bad idea and an inefficient use of developer resources, but in the end I can only vote with my wallet as a single person so they can do what they want, and clearly by looking at every other MMO, there’s apparently on ONE singly way to handle the release and content within raids. ANet has no ability to deal with raids in a more unique and better way, it HAS to be the way every other MMO company does it because laws of physics or something.

There’s always been minor story / lore elements behind hard content — see aetherpath and arah.

This debate is about degree. Your position seems a bit out of the norm.

Blaeys.3102:

Absurdo.8309:

Blaeys.3102:

What you miss is experiencing the beginning of the story – the introduction of the antagonists and primary conflict. It is bad form from a narrative perspective.

And, yes, the “Available Guardian” achievement name does seem a bit like a dev purposefully insulting a portion of their playerbase.

I have not yet played the new story, but I do raid.

I don’t care about spoilers.

Can you tell me specifically how raids tie into the story? I see a lot of complaining from you but no specifics.

Spoilers -Obviously

When you play the story, its pretty obvious. Everything goes back to the bloodstone and the White Mantle siphoning its energy.

They reuse assets from the raid throughout the new zone – including using the Vale Guardian (with almost all of his mechanics) as the final fight in the meta. An NPC down in the crater talks about the significance of the raid story to what is going on now. The final reveal in the last story is directly related to what happens in the raid (even with the no spoiler tag, I’m not gonna list that one).

While I love the use of the VG in open world (they should do that with more dungeon and raid assets), it, the story steps, the bloodstone and the visual assets throughout the zone do make the claim that the raid wasn’t an important part of the story (that players would want to experience for themselves) a bit ridiculous. It was most definitely the introduction of the current story arc, including our introduction to the primary conflict and antagonists.

I know I am harping on this a bit more than feels comfortable (making it very easy for people not wanting things changed to mock me – I realize), but it really is bad from a narrative and interactive storytelling perspective. I going to stand my ground on this point. They need to keep this in mind when developing this kind of content in the future.

Ok, I’ll need to play it for myself to form my own opinion. But you’re not making very strong arguments here.

There’s no specifics in this answer. Simply involving the white mantle and blood stone is not specific to me. These items have been introduced before — arah, cm, and human story.

Based on your description, I have no idea what’s happening in the living story, even as a raider.

Blaeys.3102:

What you miss is experiencing the beginning of the story – the introduction of the antagonists and primary conflict. It is bad form from a narrative perspective.

And, yes, the “Available Guardian” achievement name does seem a bit like a dev purposefully insulting a portion of their playerbase.

I have not yet played the new story, but I do raid.

I don’t care about spoilers.

Can you tell me specifically how raids tie into the story? I see a lot of complaining from you but no specifics.

I don’t think people are correcting their infusions correctly.

You should aim for 14 +9’s and 6 +7’s.

Break down your +10’s and +11’s into +9’s. You should have enough. Use the versatile +7’s you got from the exchange or that you already had. Should cost like 5 gold max if you buy all the extractors.

Absurdo.8309:

Blaeys.3102:

For me, the single biggest issue with raids is the move away from build diversity. While there have always been meta builds, people could still play the build/gear/style they wanted without significantly hindering the group’s chances of success.

Raids changed that. They made the game more two dimensional and strongly encouraged people to play one specific style – which, in all cases, is the style that produces the highest amount of damage.

That is why I blame enrage timers for most of the issue. Unlike dungeons/fractals/etc, timers mean that damage is more important than anything – yes, even the vaunted mechanics. I think the current raid mechanics are fun, but – because of timers – there is an unnecessary barrier to entry to experience that fun.

Should their be unique rewards for overcoming the raid fights faster and inside the current timers? – yes, definitely.

But should people who enjoy their dagger/dagger vampiric necromancer or med kit engineer be – more or less – locked out of the content by unnecessary timers because they bring non-meta functionality to the fight instead of direct damage? – I vote no.

Likewise, should someone who only plays one or two hours every few weeks – and is in only exotic gear – have no way to EXPERIENCE the fights with a reasonable chance of beating it (without the exclusive reward)? – again, I think they should.

I would like to see them get back to what’s important in this game – build a holistic experience that tells a compelling story, is open to everyone and that offers unique/interesting encounters. Then go back and add challenging content (via motes, tiering, etc) in multiple areas – as it makes sense.

But, most importantly, build that holistic experience with the greater community in mind. It is how this game started and why many of us love it so much (actually why we came here in the first place).

Timers are a non-issue for anyone that actually raids. It’s almost always the mechanics. The timers are extremely generous.

That’s not to say they serve zero purpose. Tankier builds are easier to play than dps builds, because you can take more hits. Enrage timers bring parity to these builds by increasing the damage if you take too long. Feel free to bring tanky builds — just be prepared for a bit of enrage near the end of the fight.

Everyone can raid. Even someone in exotic. Even someone who plays a couple of hours a week. Even someone who wants to play d/d necro (I may be mistaken, but I think in the 10 necro sloth kill they had two power necros).

Not all builds are good. But most classes have one or two pretty good builds. And across 9 classes, that’s 18 builds you can play. It’s not like we’re stacking 10 elementalists here.

As a PS, here’s the list of builds I’ve personally accepted into the raids I lead:

Mesmer: Chrono tank / boon share
Elementalist: Staff dps, fresh air dps, healer, tank
Necro: Condition (minions, blood magic reaper, blood magic necro), tank
Ranger: Healing druid, condition, tank
Thief: staff dps, d/d dps, venom share
Engineer: Condition, power scrapper
Guardian: Hammer dps, greatsword aegis dps, tank
Warrior: ps power, ps condi, straight condi
Revenant: standard dps (shiro, mallyx, or dwarf as second legend), condi

Blaeys.3102:

For me, the single biggest issue with raids is the move away from build diversity. While there have always been meta builds, people could still play the build/gear/style they wanted without significantly hindering the group’s chances of success.

Raids changed that. They made the game more two dimensional and strongly encouraged people to play one specific style – which, in all cases, is the style that produces the highest amount of damage.

That is why I blame enrage timers for most of the issue. Unlike dungeons/fractals/etc, timers mean that damage is more important than anything – yes, even the vaunted mechanics. I think the current raid mechanics are fun, but – because of timers – there is an unnecessary barrier to entry to experience that fun.

Should their be unique rewards for overcoming the raid fights faster and inside the current timers? – yes, definitely.

But should people who enjoy their dagger/dagger vampiric necromancer or med kit engineer be – more or less – locked out of the content by unnecessary timers because they bring non-meta functionality to the fight instead of direct damage? – I vote no.

Likewise, should someone who only plays one or two hours every few weeks – and is in only exotic gear – have no way to EXPERIENCE the fights with a reasonable chance of beating it (without the exclusive reward)? – again, I think they should.

I would like to see them get back to what’s important in this game – build a holistic experience that tells a compelling story, is open to everyone and that offers unique/interesting encounters. Then go back and add challenging content (via motes, tiering, etc) in multiple areas – as it makes sense.

But, most importantly, build that holistic experience with the greater community in mind. It is how this game started and why many of us love it so much (actually why we came here in the first place).

Timers are a non-issue for anyone that actually raids. It’s almost always the mechanics. The timers are extremely generous.

That’s not to say they serve zero purpose. Tankier builds are easier to play than dps builds, because you can take more hits. Enrage timers bring parity to these builds by increasing the damage if you take too long. Feel free to bring tanky builds — just be prepared for a bit of enrage near the end of the fight.

Everyone can raid. Even someone in exotic. Even someone who plays a couple of hours a week. Even someone who wants to play d/d necro (I may be mistaken, but I think in the 10 necro sloth kill they had two power necros).

Not all builds are good. But most classes have one or two pretty good builds. And across 9 classes, that’s 18 builds you can play. It’s not like we’re stacking 10 elementalists here.

As amusing as the ridiculous analogies have been lately, there hasn’t been anything constructive for several pages.

It’s clear the easy moders just don’t like raids. Thankfully, there’s plenty of content that they should like.

As for their principles, I’ve it seems they are:

1. All content must be easy, and
2. Those who can only complete easy content (or those that play only content they enjoy), must have access to all rewards, including skins.

That philosophy is just not guild wars 2.

As for harder content,
- Triple trouble is a hard world boss
- Some dungeon paths are harder than others (aetherpath and arah, especially)
- Some Queens gauntlet bosses were hard (liadri especially)
- Higher level fractals are harder than their lower level counterparts
- SAB tribulation is hard
- Some open world hero points are hard
- PvP can be difficult
- WVW can be difficult

As for unique rewards,
- Dungeon armor and weapons are unique to dungeons and pvp
- Fractal weapons are unique to fractals. Golden weapons are unique to high level fractals.
- Fractal legendary is unique to high level fractals.
- PvP legendary is unique to pvp
- Several skins are unique to pvp
- New legendaries are unique to HOT
- Several skins are unique to wvw
- Several skins are unique to living story
- Several minis are linked to hard content (liadri, aetherpath)
- Several skins are unique to HOT metas
- And plenty more

Ohoni.6057:

An alternate version leaves no purpose of going to the main attraction.

If you like challenge, you have a reason to go to the existing version.

If you are capable of passing the challenge, and want the fastest way to get rewards, you have reason to go to the existing version.

If you don’t enjoy challenge, then you should have no reason to go to the existing version.

Ever.

Let me answer your question with a realistic scenario as it relates to GW2.

How often do you do story dungeons on a weekly basis ?
How often do you do fractals, not t4 or the daily suggested ?

You’re sort of making an argument counter to your stated position. People don’t do story dungeons because they don’t have any loot. The hard mode versions would remain the most efficient version for loot, so loot chasers would have every reason to keep doing them.

If you’re trying to make a comparison between Dungeons and Raids here, then just using story and paths as they are is a broken one. Instead think of it like this, you currently get around 100 tokens for each explorable path completion, and most players are perfectly able to complete the existing paths. They would be the easy mode standard. But let’s say they added a hard mode, one that existing groups could not complete, one tuned to require equivalent skill, gearing, and dedication to raid encounters. This mode would give out 300 tokens per completion, and they would add fancy weapons and armor that would cost 3000+ tokens each.

In this scenario, you would still have people that preferred the existing easy mode, felt it offered a fair reward for their time and effort, and would grind away towards those new rewards. But you’d also have players that enjoy challenge, would appreciate the content itself of a hard mode version, and would feel that the increased (but not unique) rewards of the harder version was well worth their time.

If they needed something to show off, they would not only be able to earn the fancy new gear months ahead of the easy mode players, having plenty of time to show it off before the Next-Big-Thing arrived in fashionwars, but they could also earn a unique title for each dungeon, like “Citadel Demolisher” or something.

If even in that scenario nobody would be doing the hard mode, then it’s clearly not worth even attempting to put challenging content in the game because nobody actually wants it.

The argument is that no one repeats the story-mode dungeons because the rewards are way too low. As they probably would be for easy mode raids.

Even if the rewards are balanced, like fractals, then no one would repeat the easy mode once they’re able to do the normal one. Again, wasted content.

And if the rewards were over-tuned towards easy-mode raids, then no one do the normal mode. Like COF p3.

Just a lose-lose-lose

Jahroots.6791:

TexZero.7910:

Let me answer your question with a realistic scenario as it relates to GW2.

How often do you do story dungeons on a weekly basis ?
How often do you do fractals, not t4 or the daily suggested ?

The answer in short is yes, it does cause that to occur. Once you’ve run the easy mode once you very seldom if ever go back to it which causes it to become dead content.

It’s only dead to me since I am an experienced player. There are always people running story dungeons and low tier fractals, though.

I don’t repeat content for challenge, I repeat it for rewards. The difficulty does not really matter. Most players are like this as well. If easy mode raids were designed to be as unrewarding as story dungeons, then yes, they would be pointless. No one would run them. If the reward scale was in line with T2 fractals or so, then many people would happily play (and remain at) that level.

And none of that would affect serious raiding at all.

Case in point: I do the T4 dailies every day. I don’t spare a thought for the other levels. I I don’t run them, I don’t even check their listings. This would be you too, if they introduced lower difficulty raids.

I would rather not have developer resources wasted on content that’s easily thrown aside.

Story modes show why it’s bad to have low difficulty content with low rewards. People only run them once. That would be a problem with easy mode raids.

Or, if the rewards weren’t too low: (1) no one would consistently run the lower tier, as they would move on to the normal level as soon as they were able (think infantile mode SAB or T2 fractals); or (2) people would only run the easy mode, if it was more time-efficient to get rewards that way (think COF p1 compared to p3).

It’s just a lose-lose. I’d rather new content to play around with, than easy-mode raids with no staying power.

EDIT: you do need easy content for new players, but we have plenty of that

Ohoni.6057:

I feel like your arguments would be more effective if you delivered them in a shorter format. No one likes to read pages disputing the minutiae of argument.

I feel like the same people who disagree with me would continue to disagree with me, since they rarely seem to read anything I write anyway. You do you though.

My position is fairly clear: Diversity of content is better than repeated content. Anet should continue to develop different content at all skill levels

And I agree with all of that, but easier versions of the raids is not mutually exclusive with more new content. They should do both.

It’s better to have all content available at a single baseline difficulty level, because that means that any player who can play any of the game can play all of the game. Yes, if there is “enough” content at the baseline difficulty level then that player will have something to do, but it may not be the thing he’s like to do, and having all content available at that difficulty level would mean that no content is barred behind a skill/time gate.

Now that doesn’t mean that there can’t also be difficult content for those that want it, but this content should also be available to everyone else, nobody should feel that they have to do the hard version if they don’t enjoy hard versions. Those that do enjoy hard versions should have it available because they enjoy hard versions. If the point of them is to have something to lord over those that can’t do them, then that is a toxic purpose, and should not be validated.

It’s fair to hold the view that no content should be behind a skill/time time gate. And that all content should be at an easy difficulty level.

That’s just not guild wars 2.

There’s never been a single difficulty level across all content. Orr open world is harder than starter open world. Dungeons are harder than open world. Some dungeons (arah, aetherpath) are harder than others. Some fractals are harder than dungeons. Raids are harder than fractals.

Other things are locked behind time gates. A wvw player with ascended gear and all tracks unlocked will out-perform a level 5 player in wvw, even if that level 5 is a veteran on an alternate account. Legendaries take months or years to get. Ascended gear is locked behind a time-gate. The pvp legendary is locked behind a time and skill gate.

Heck, even fractals, which seems to be exactly what you want with raids, is locked behind a time gate. The higher level fractals require ascended gear. Even if you were the most skilled player in the world, you would just die to agony (unlike raids, I’ll point out). And higher level fractals have certain rewards and skins locked behind them.

It’s admirable that you’re so consistent in your views. They just don’t align with guild wars 2, and they never have.

@ Ohoni

I feel like your arguments would be more effective if you delivered them in a shorter format. No one likes to read pages disputing the minutiae of argument.

My position is fairly clear: Diversity of content is better than repeated content. Anet should continue to develop different content at all skill levels

I think we’re all aware that yours is: All content should be available at all skill levels, and all rewards should be achievable at all skill levels.

Disputing minutiae seems pointless.

Artemis Thuras.8795:

So far the common theme is those being scorned by groups and booted.

Don’t forget this exists:
http://gw2.ninja/chatcodes

So even gear checks can be faked. ( this is also how I got my code for 255 insights)

I would suggest not taking things personally if you do get kicked. Even after gear checks.
Unless you were failing mechanics, in which case take it very personally. You need to learn the mechanics, no one can do that for you.

I’ve personally not needed to use any detailed mechanics guides, and I have no idea if any detailed ones exist. If there are, links to those would be very helpful I’m certain.

Be friendly, and enjoy the content is certainly good advice for anyone.
However I was hoping we would see more practical advice for how to find pugs or fill a spare spot in a group.

Maybe how certain classes can be used to help make a fight easier. Things that might be overlooked when a pug has always been told they must min/max for dps.

One example I can think of is using an ele focus, activating obsidian flesh before the slothosaur shake/coconut. Running into his hitbox, and absorbing (due to invuln) some of the coconuts so they can’t hit anyone else. The same thing will work with any invuln skill really.

I’m hoping over the weekend we can get a few more informative replies!

I feel like your topic is two-faced —-- you want people to fake their way in. Only causing more divisiveness.

The solution has always been form your on group.

Here’s a story: I created an lfg post this week, “LFM Xera, ping proof of kill.” I started the group alone. When there was around four people in the party, one member asked, “Why do your start groups with so few people?” I responded, “Somebody needs to start the group.” Two minutes later the group was full.

I won’t pretend that my groups always fill that fast. But they always fill. And you post gets a lot of attention if it’s the only one there (besides the sellers), which is probably when you’re having trouble getting into a group in the first place.

Don’t lie. People will dislike you for it. Instead, start your own group. I’ve had plenty of kills with the description “LFM VG, exp”

Jahroots.6791:

Barath.4305:

i am happy, because its a game.
even though, i would do many things different, for example i would try to focus on giving the players content they can re-play for years, that does not get boring with the time (like underworld or doa in guildwars 1). raids come quite close to that.

but that does not give me a free-ticket to grant and shout on everything they do and that they should re-build the content other people like to content me and my friends like, because they create the game not only for me.
they create it for many players, so they create much different content.

but you act like “i dont like that part of the content, change it, i paid for this game!”
thats just unbelievable egoistic… not only you paid for it
raids were created for the part of the community that likes hard+challenging content
living story is for those that like story
open world content is for those that like exploring

maybe my reasoning is weak and lazy as you say
your reasoning is just egoistic…
while i see that other players do not like raids, you can’t see that other players maybe do not like what you like…

its a game that got many different aspects, why should everything be the same casual-stuff?
it can be versatile, so everyone gets a piece of the pizza.
the one likes spinach, the other one tuna. why would you order a complete spinach pizza?

however, have a nice day

I think you misunderstand the point of this topic. People are not suggesting that raids should be nerfed completely, they are asking for a separate and distinct version of the current raids that is more accessible. The current raid difficulty would remain, unchanged, for those who prefer it. They do not want to take your pizza away from you, they want a second one made with different toppings. This is not a selfish request.

Also, don’t think of the state of the game as being inherently ‘good’ or ‘right’. An MMO should be dynamic and fluid, adapted to the players’ needs. If enough people voice a concern (and we are all entitled to do this) Anet is likely to take notice and at least consider ways of addressing it. Quite a few changes have been made as a result of player feedback, and the game would likely have suffered overall if people simply kept quiet and hoped for things to change.

Why do these people need raids? Wouldn’t a new living story chapter or fractal also sate your desire for easier content?

New content also has the benefit that players from both camps have the opportunity to enjoy it. Unlike repeated content.

Blaeys.3102:

I think the most recent trailer for S3 dispels any notion that raids were not a significant part of the next story arc (the introduction, in fact).

That is, imo, bad form and bad storytelling – but only because of the raid accessibility issue.

As much as some don’t want it, raids need tiered difficulties, especially if they are to be used to advance the story (in even the slightest way).

I’m no lore expert, but is that Caudecus’s voice in the trailer?