Why wouldn’t you quit after the first run? Seems like you’re complaining about a problem you could’ve fixed yourself.
I’d settle for not having to unequip the pieces.
LOL, you have to unequip the armor to change stats, seriously?
I thought it’s already so inconvenient to change stats that people probably have a second ascended set in their inventory instead of doing that, and now you tell me that you cannot even swap stats while wearing the armor…
Switching to a complete second armor set takes maybe 6 seconds, how long does it take to switch stats on a legendary armor set?
And how is that situation not something that deserves priority? I would only get another trenchcoat and utility of legendary armor is diminished by the micromanagement necessary to actually use the utility feature.
Not going to get legendary armor soon.
You don’t need to unequip — just double click the armor piece on the equipment screen.
It takes me about 1 minute to change all stats and runes.
You can get the general story that took place before you were there, but never the exact story that took place once the raid was done in itself.
Not to mention lots of the dialogue taking place in between and during encounters.
EDIT: A better argument that you can make is that even with an easy mode you would never really learn all of the story depending on what they need to cut to make it easier as well as changing the experience. Part of the story of raiding is actually completing it on the difficulty setting it is made on.
Let’s create entirely different game modes so players can hear one line of dialog. Sounds like a good use of resources.
While we’re at it, can we get easy mode arah? Lore much heavier there.
Personal perception of game difficulty does vary greatly between different groups of players in this game. It is the very reason why there is content catering towards each and every player. From very casual PvE to raids, from WvW blobs to high level tPvP.
And I just don’t understand why it bothers some players so much to not have all content being catered towards their own perception of difficulty.
Many of us do not consider any Open World content, including HoT, to be any challenge. We do not enjoy it much and hardly ever play it. You know, content that is very rewarding if not the most rewarding in this game. So what? There is other stuff to do, better challenges to take and greater fun to be had.On old Orr, I don’t remember it to have been that hard. Annoying, yes sure and especially if you didn’t run a mobile build. Enemies still died in a cleave or two for me. I had already moved on to dungeons and hardly ever moved to that map long before they nerfed the numbers of enemies, so I don’t remember how much of a difference it made.
Almost no one is advocating for the removal of challenging content. I, for one, believe the game needs more of it.
But not at the cost of accessibility. Challenging content should be an extension of what the game is – not an entirely separate game mode made for a small percentage of the game’s population. At that point, they might as well be making two completely separate games.
It’s effectively the removal of hard content (by opportunity cost) if the devs need to design and implement easy mode for every raid and future raid.
On average, you should get weaker players on both teams. Maybe you should reflect on your own gameplay if you’re consistently losing.
I can attest first hand that it is EXTREMELY difficult to discuss this topic on the forums or reddit. You will be attacked. You will be mocked. You may even (as I did last year) get death threats.
And I agree with Onizuka on one point – the simple existence of these threads isn’t reason enough to make one argument stronger than the other. At the same time, there is no good reason to shut down the dialogue – especially as new people enter the conversation.
To the point about other game modes. you cannot really compare pvp and pve in terms of scaling difficulty. All a developer can do in PVP is try their best to match people with comparable skill together in either leagues or ladders (which is EXACTLY what Anet tries to do for both PvP and WvW).
In PvE, where the opponent is the AI, that kind of matchmaking comes from difficulty tiers – matching player skill, dedication, etc to the tier that best fits their playstyle and skill. True, you can use different game content to accomplish this, but when you do, you might as well be designing completely different games. When you do that, you introduce exclusion and ego into the mix in a way that segments and DAMAGES the game’s community.
Up until the introduction of raids, this is something Anet clearly understood very well – and something they could fix with tiered levels of difficulty inside raids.
Maybe that your idea isn’t well-received here, on the forums, or by anet is evidence that your idea isn’t very good?
That’s only if you are a WvW player that doesn’t want to even touch PvE but is fine with playing spvp. Otherwise farming berries in bitterfrost is much easier and faster.
I dunno, as long as you dont lose a lot it can go really quickly. The regular shards themselves can be bought off of the TP for cheap, and all it takes is 150 – 175 Ascended shards. Hardly an ordeal.
Also berry farming is boring.
Is it worth it for the trinkets though? Seems like a reasonable way to get HOT ascended trinkets, like vipers.
I think almost every single post on this forum is negative, so I thought I would highlight some of the good.
I stopped pvping after getting my legendary backpack. I started again for this current season. And wow. Everything is better.
I love the single/duo queue. Great for pvping anytime, without needing a team to succeed.
I love that your pvp tier is separated from pips. You’ll get rewarded, eventually.
I love the leaderboard. Chasing rank is fun.
The automatic tournaments are a great idea. Content for those five player teams too!
The hate over the pedestals seems overblown. It’s a game, and provides some friendly banter. As Bilbo would say, “It’s just a bit of fun!”
I do wish the pedestals showed name and class though, as I sometimes forget who’s who in the heat of battle! And I’m not entirely sure it shows top stats correctly (or maybe it’s showing it across both teams?
But great job. You got a pve player back into PvP. Keep up the good work.
Dungeons were totally fine without that exclusive content.
Right, because dungeon skins and runes aren’t exclusive rewards. Plus it was the top gold farm at the moment. Try again.
So please tell me were I can get legendary armor functionality outside of raid since now the skin exclusitivity is what you defend.
You could get exotic equipment from karma vendors in orr, random drops and Wvw merchants so that tier wasent exlusive at all.
The functionality is mostly irrelevant. The exclusivity is in the skin, just like it was for dungeon armors. Which you couldn’t, and still can’t, get as random drops.
Yes but you can get them from reward tracks so then maybe they should implement the same for the legendary armor right?
Please tell me where I can get legendary functionality outside of gerent or provisioner tokens.
Agreed. It’s a pointless timegate, and not fun.
so, I spent all day today trying to figure out how to get into a raid. It was quite a learning experience.
First I went to the staging area and asked how I do I do a raid, never having done one before, I was told to join a training group in the LFG. so I did that, and was very quickly kicked for not knowing “rotation” or my skills. So much for a training run. That was disheartening and I almost logged out with some choice expletives. But I asked again in map chat. How do I train for a raid, if the training group expects me to know everything already? I was told read up on it on the internet, or/and join a Raid Guild.Ok. where is the list of Raid Guilds? I then went to google, typed in “spirit vale walk through” found a couple youtube videos. Watched the fight although I couldn’t see anyone’s skills except the pov. and he was an Engi. I can’t play Engi. Ok, so now I know, get into the green circle. Went to dulfy’s website, looked at her guide. Didn’t see anything about skills there either. Just classes. I feel like I am reading shakespear, I kinda get the idea of what is written, but the sentence structure seems off, and alot of the words don’t make sense. Maybe I am just too stupid to do raids. I do have a BS though…
Ok, so it’s like 9 pacific time now and if I went back into the raid staging area, I still wouldn’t beable to answer the question the so called training raid asked me. What is my rotation?
Force players to do research on the internet before they can even attempt to fight them. Simultaneously encouraging players to insult the player who is new to raids.
I don’t have time for this, but I am trying.
I think raids need less deterrents, and more support from the game itself to get people into it. The content can still be hard.OK, what sequence of numbers must I push, in order to convince 9 other players to allow me the honor of doing a raid with them?
Why do you feel entitled to have people teach you?
Training runs are generally to learn the mechanics of the fight, not the class. If you come into the fight with a clerics chronomancer, they’re going to boot you.
Someone else already posted the qtfy site, which is good. We can help too, if you listed what class you were trying to join on. But if all you want to do is complain, then complain away.
How many hours did it take you to get legendary weapons? I highly doubt you’re a casual.
Launch date was 28 August 2012, I’ve played for 1986 hours over 9 characters since then.
That’s a average of 1.14 hours each day (1745 days).
I think i have spent half of that time on the legendary KudzuIs that casual enough for you ?
So legendary weapons are out of reach for casuals too. 1000 hours is not casual.
1000 hours in a 5 year span is pretty casual to me. Averaged at 1.14 hours? – that’s practically a daily, some parts of even trains and a few map poi’s for me. XD
But on topic, I think locking leg armor in raids is fine and rightfully so.
The word “Legendary” has to live up to it’s name.Apart from the already mentioned benefits of having a legendary is that
- Legendary equips will always have stat values equivalent to the the highest tier of equipment available. Currently, they have stats equivalent to Ascended equipment.So there’s that. I think you gotta commit to that much effort at least.
This is coming from a “casual”, that doesn’t event have a full exotic set.
If you spend 1 hour a day for the next 2.5 years raiding, you’ll easily get legendary armor. Is raiding 7 hours a week “casual”? Call me casual then.
How many hours did it take you to get legendary weapons? I highly doubt you’re a casual.
Launch date was 28 August 2012, I’ve played for 1986 hours over 9 characters since then.
That’s a average of 1.14 hours each day (1745 days).
I think i have spent half of that time on the legendary KudzuIs that casual enough for you ?
So legendary weapons are out of reach for casuals too. 1000 hours is not casual.
If you find it not realistic to set legendary armor as your goal, just forget about it. It is not like they look so amazing you have to obtain it. There are plenty other more realistic goals you can achieve in this game.
As exciton said, find realistic goals, and stick to them.
As for realistic goals.. legendary weapons are also available for the casual gamer and already owned by my characters, the “find realistic goals” comments are total BS if you ask me.
At least Arenanet could open up legendary armors in other play styles except raids.
I couldn’t care less not to complete the raids but the legendary armor definitely has some benefits for PVE and WVW also.. The changeable stats for example ?!?This topic is about the combination RAIDS and Legendary armor, in my opninion this is a big FU to the casual gamer.
How many hours did it take you to get legendary weapons? I highly doubt you’re a casual.
No more like, don’t expect to jump into raiding instantly because that’s sane. Play the game, learn the game, find a group of players (guild) then raid. You see that’s the selling point. Playing the content, if you choose not to, that ceases to be an Anet problem.
And nor should they, but once they’ve played the game and gotten to a point that raids may be the next logical step, they won’t benefit like a lot of us vets did by having the population spike at the launch of raids. That was a time when it didn’t really matter if a few players left the group as there were plenty to fill the spots. I know I spent countless hours during that time and never really had the issues that players face now of finding groups that even stay together while learning. Granted when we learned there weren’t guides, but we had plenty of willing players to rough it out with. Now we either have dedicated groups or join exp only groups. Have you tried semi recently pugging with a new/ no exp needed group? I feel pity for them, spending hours to form a group only to have rage q’ers leave then have to spend hours more to only have the same thing happen again. It simply isn’t the same process now as it was when we learned.
It’s much easier to raid now than at raid release. All of the strategies and builds are hashed out. Plus, more experienced players can cover newbie mistakes.
I recently took a 6 month hiatus, and started wing 4 a couple of weeks ago. It was really easy, especially since the rest of my (pug) group was experienced.
I get the feeling you haven’t tried raids. Or tried once, and failed. They are not that bad. Start with the easier ones.
Totally agree with OP !!!
Myself I am a ‘on and off’ casual player, so more a single player sort of say.
I play for few months and after that not for few months.. this goes on since launch..These raids are to kitten hard for casual payers like myself, I’m not steady active enough to stay in a guild which could clear the raid. And in Pick up groups i get kicked out because i don’t know the tactics of bosses….. Sigh
This is very frustrating, not so much for not seeing the raid but more for never going to complete the farm for legendary armor pieces.The least A’net could do is make it an Very Hard single player experience for the casual players also. Just like that one boss in the Queens Gauntlet (Liadri the Concealing Dark).
That was fun and hard!
It’s called t4 fractals? Those are a stepping stone to raids.
I am not in a guild. I have always pugged raids. I expect to get legendary armor after I get all of my tokens.
There’s tons of things you can do to make yourself more attractive to pug groups.
First, have a ton of geared classes. I have almost all of my classes geared for raids. It makes you available for more groups. Druids, chronos, and condi ps are in high demand.
Second, lead a group every once in a while. I do it when the lfg is slow. Discord is free for voice chat.
Finally, it’s just a game. You don’t need to do everything. I’m probably never going to get the new wvw stuff, because I just don’t play that much wvw. That’s ok. Aim to have fun.
Sort of, yes, as I see them linked. When you say mechanics, which ones are you referring to?
The ones that make you fail. You know, like not CC-ing the wargs at Escort, going through the whole squad with poison on Matthias, failing to go to VG greens, missing a bomb throw on Sabetha… need I give more examples?
Nope you’re good. A dmg modifier would give leeway for a lot of mechanics, but ofc not all. Since the ones that wouldn’t be effected aren’t the only ones, it still has the same effect for the most part. Unless ofc you are saying that those and only those mechanics (context of ones that wouldn’t be effected) are the reasons for all failure in all of raids?
Damage is almost never the reason for failure.
On VG, it’s failing to mind the green and blue circles.
On Sabetha, it’s failing the cannons.
On sloth, it’s failing the poison, mushroom, or shake mechanics.
On trio, it’s failing to mind the cage
On matt, it’s failing the many mechanics
On escort, it’s running into mines
On KC, it’s failing to kill the ghosts
On Xera, it’s failing to dodge and kill shards
On Deimos, it’s failing to manage the agony mechanic
On MO, it’s failing to avoid the spikes
On Sam, it’s failing to dodge or cc
On Deimos, it’s a failure from tank, hand kiter, oil, or tears
Gorseval is the only real boss with a dps check. Otherwise, groups of 10 would hit the enrage timer all the time.
Your easy mode would solve nothing. Several raids don’t have dps checks, and groups still fail. Any easy mode would need to be much more involved.
I still find it funny that some think that making a story (easier) mode would somehow be detrimental to the game. It could literally be a mote that gives non-standard boons (think outnumbered in wvw)…no substantial development time needed. A small amount of dev time would open up raids to a lot of players that otherwise wouldn’t participate in the content.
In a prior thread on this very topic, Gayle Gray cautioned posters about basing arguments around assumptions as to just how much work would be involved in developing different modes for raid content.
I fully understand that about full fledged modes, but that’s not what I’m suggesting. I’m simply suggesting a buff which would essentially accomplish the same thing, but with much less dev time needed. Again all of the mechanics are already in the game. They could just add an option to a mote that gives players 10% reduction in dmg taken or something.
I will concede that idk how that would work with limiting loot.
Do you really think groups fail fights like escort or MO because of damage? It’s always mechanics.
Or maybe they are? We dont know, so stop using this argument.
You might address that at Sky. He was the one that mentioned his experience, claimed it was representative of the whole community, and used it as an argument.
But seriously, do you too really think, that a group of 10 average gw2 players that’ve never seen VG before, is highly likely to learn the fight and down the boss in 5 atempts?
Why is this the hypothetical? Why not 10 players who have watched a YouTube video of the encounter? Why not 10 players who have beat fotm 100? Why not five new players and five veteran players?
Your standard also makes no sense when compared to other content. Five unfamiliar players would similarly take forever to beat arah p4.
It’s not a good hypothetical, because it doesn’t mirror the game we’re in. Raids have been out for a while.
And even if you were right, you haven’t justified an easy mode. There’s plenty of easy content.
Is Arah a fair comparison?
I’ve done Arah several times, its one of my favourite locations in the game and if I mention it in guild chat it doesn’t immediately start an argument. Also the tokens go directly into your wallet so there’s none of this 200+ LI or gtfo stuff going on with it.
Yep. The difficulty is on – par. It doesn’t start an argument because people irrationally hate raids.
There are plenty of LFGs with no LI requirement too.
I think this is a good idea, and I really don’t understand the objections.
The OP is asking for a completely separate mode with separate rewards. Your raiding experience will not be changed at all as you can just click on hard mode. If the original point was to nerf the difficulty across the board of raids then I would be with you in objecting but I don’t see the harm of a completely separate box that aims to be more inclusive.
If you buy an expansion pack then you are paying for the development cycle of that expansion pack. If part of that development cycle is based on raids then you are getting a worse deal on that pack if you are someone who doesn’t raid then someone who can enjoy all the content.As someone who doesn’t raid, let me give you an objective view of how this debate has developed:
When raids were first released people complained about them being too hard. Keep in mind people also used to complain vistas were too difficult, and we even had people whining about dungeon difficulty at launch.
At first, some raiders pushed back against the idea of needing an easy mode, but many more said “yes I think it would be good to have an easy mode without the rewards leading to Legendary Armor.” Basically make it more like dungeon scale rewards. After this, many people complaining about raid difficulty turned the argument to “what no, we should still get legendary armor even playing on easy mode.”
That is why you see the argument you see now, so hopefully you will be informed going forward and not be confused. There are large swaths of non-raiders who want both the prestige of raiding but also to do it in a dumbed down brain dead mode.
Personally, I think it would be alright to see a dumbed down brain dead 5-man raid that has exotic gear to work towards and doesn’t share any achievements with the regular raid mode. Don’t call it a raid because that is an insult, just call it whatever the name for he raid is and explorable mode or something. I don’t deserve to unlock raid achievements and gear if I am not willing to put in the blood and sweat. Maybe some people see that as unfair, but too bad. Go play a game where you have the whole armory available to you at level 1 and don’t need to work for anything.
In any case, this is why you see this argument Merlin. Because it isn’t just a debate of whether an easy mode should exist or not. It turns into a debate then of whether easy mode should allow you to work toward Legendary armor and such. Personally I think if people want to play a dumbed down version of raids that’s would be as unchallenging and boring as dungeons, let them have it without the same rewards. I’d get to see the raid wing story then at least I guess, but I’d probably only do it once because it would be boring. Besides, I could already explore the maps in an open instance.
Also, two more points directed specifically at some silly things you said in your post (one that, now rereading, shows you have huge bias and are being intentionally obtuse):
1) Yes, raids were part of the expansion. Yes, everyone who bought he expansion has access to raids. No, a game developer doesnt have any responsibility to make the content easy enough for everyone who buys it to complete it. Sorry, but that is a terrible mindset. You bought it, you can access it, if you can’t complete it it’s on you.
2) Of course people like the exclusivity of it. Why are you acting like that is a bad thing? It has exclusiveness because it is difficult content. They go hand in hand. They enjoy it being exclusive and enjoy it being exclusive because it is difficult and they can overcome that and show that they are good at it. That is a normal thing and a big part of gaming. So you trying to use it to devalue their argument is hilarious.
Also, no one is blocking anyone else from content. It is super easy to find 9 other players to play with if you aren’t picky. Just advertise in lfg and map chat you are forming a raid party for new, inexperienced, or nonmeta players. Don’t call it training, just say all welcome. I promise you will find people.
It’s also clear that the lore argument is just an excuse, as no one complains about not being able to experience the lore of arah.
There’s a story mode for Arah, although I can see why someone might want to forget it. I believe there are people who really do want a raid story mode for lore purposes, just as I believe there are people who care about raids for the challenge and who care nothing for the rewards or prestige. That doesn’t mean I would bet on either group being of significant size.
Arah story and arah p4 are entirely different paths. Not an easy mode of the same path.
I think this is a good idea, and I really don’t understand the objections.
The OP is asking for a completely separate mode with separate rewards. Your raiding experience will not be changed at all as you can just click on hard mode. If the original point was to nerf the difficulty across the board of raids then I would be with you in objecting but I don’t see the harm of a completely separate box that aims to be more inclusive.
If you buy an expansion pack then you are paying for the development cycle of that expansion pack. If part of that development cycle is based on raids then you are getting a worse deal on that pack if you are someone who doesn’t raid then someone who can enjoy all the content.As someone who doesn’t raid, let me give you an objective view of how this debate has developed:
When raids were first released people complained about them being too hard. Keep in mind people also used to complain vistas were too difficult, and we even had people whining about dungeon difficulty at launch.
At first, some raiders pushed back against the idea of needing an easy mode, but many more said “yes I think it would be good to have an easy mode without the rewards leading to Legendary Armor.” Basically make it more like dungeon scale rewards. After this, many people complaining about raid difficulty turned the argument to “what no, we should still get legendary armor even playing on easy mode.”
That is why you see the argument you see now, so hopefully you will be informed going forward and not be confused. There are large swaths of non-raiders who want both the prestige of raiding but also to do it in a dumbed down brain dead mode.
Personally, I think it would be alright to see a dumbed down brain dead 5-man raid that has exotic gear to work towards and doesn’t share any achievements with the regular raid mode. Don’t call it a raid because that is an insult, just call it whatever the name for he raid is and explorable mode or something. I don’t deserve to unlock raid achievements and gear if I am not willing to put in the blood and sweat. Maybe some people see that as unfair, but too bad. Go play a game where you have the whole armory available to you at level 1 and don’t need to work for anything.
In any case, this is why you see this argument Merlin. Because it isn’t just a debate of whether an easy mode should exist or not. It turns into a debate then of whether easy mode should allow you to work toward Legendary armor and such. Personally I think if people want to play a dumbed down version of raids that’s would be as unchallenging and boring as dungeons, let them have it without the same rewards. I’d get to see the raid wing story then at least I guess, but I’d probably only do it once because it would be boring. Besides, I could already explore the maps in an open instance.
Also, two more points directed specifically at some silly things you said in your post (one that, now rereading, shows you have huge bias and are being intentionally obtuse):
1) Yes, raids were part of the expansion. Yes, everyone who bought he expansion has access to raids. No, a game developer doesnt have any responsibility to make the content easy enough for everyone who buys it to complete it. Sorry, but that is a terrible mindset. You bought it, you can access it, if you can’t complete it it’s on you.
2) Of course people like the exclusivity of it. Why are you acting like that is a bad thing? It has exclusiveness because it is difficult content. They go hand in hand. They enjoy it being exclusive and enjoy it being exclusive because it is difficult and they can overcome that and show that they are good at it. That is a normal thing and a big part of gaming. So you trying to use it to devalue their argument is hilarious.
Also, no one is blocking anyone else from content. It is super easy to find 9 other players to play with if you aren’t picky. Just advertise in lfg and map chat you are forming a raid party for new, inexperienced, or nonmeta players. Don’t call it training, just say all welcome. I promise you will find people.
It’s also clear that the lore argument is just an excuse, as no one complains about not being able to experience the lore of arah.
On the flip side, I don’t feel like a hero in the living story, because it’s too easy. Where’s the hard mode draconis mons?
There’s plenty of content to go around. It sounds selfish when you request that every single piece of lore cater to every player.
Plus, this is some side lore, not even the main story of guild wars 2.
First, it most definitely isnt selfish. Your example is faulty. The difference between Draconis Mons and the raids is that the Draconis Mons experience is not exclusionary in any sense. The same cannot be said of of the raid experience where off builds or playstyles result in extreme levels of frustration. And, if there were a way to include harder content in open world in a way that made sense, I would be all for it.
Second, there is no such thing as side lore. That is a semantic distinction one developer tried to float to justify exclusionary design – nothing more. These are stories that take place in the world of Tyria and involve characters/settings/etc in that world. And, they are stories players are interested in experiencing – that is what really matters. You could just as easily call all of the stories in the game side stories since there are several story arcs that have started or played out since the game started.
It’s 100% exclusionary. I don’t get the hero vibe from that content, so I’m excluded from being a hero.
Sure, I could get the lore from pressing 1 through the content, but that’s not the same as experiencing a heroic adventure.
… or, maybe it’s ok that guild wars 2 has a lot of content across all experience levels. Different strokes for different folks.
When you’re kicked from the map for playing a toon you enjoy, then you can call it exclusionary.
You are trying to make this a this or that/black and white argument (with failed sarcasm) when it really isn’t.
An MMO isnt a linear storyline where we follow the hero down a preset path. Instead, it is a living world and environment built around two things – the individual player and the community. It is ArenaNet’s task to make the player and the community feel like the main focus of that world – the heroes of Tyria.
Raids have taken that away from a segment of the population. That build and playstyle that Sarah put hours of love and attention into making uniquely hers felt like that hero. Now, with the addition of restrictively designed raids, that character is a second class hero – able to take on and defeat all of the terrors of the world – except for the worst of the worst.
I know there are a lot of people that don’t play that way – that take min-maxing and being the highest performing character possibly very seriously. And there is nothing wrong with that. There should be content that pushes their limits.
But for the others – for players like Sarah – the current game environment is shattering that sense of epic heroism. And that is both disheartening and un-fun.
So, yes, you can be the best of the best in the game. Have fun min maxing and pushing the math of the game to the limits. But, please realize that there are other kinds of players out there as well – an entire community of players that need that immersive heroic feel (even if you don’t). It is about realizing the world doesnt revolve around a single kind of player – that, ESPECIALLY at end game and ESPECIALLY in the are designed to provide the most epic experience – varying levels of accessibility are critical to the game’s success.
You are, again, ignoring the other side.
Content can be too easy. Raids and fractals keep me in the game, not the living story or the new maps. Because that content is too easy and boring. 100% serious here, I am absolutely excluded from some of the easy content, because it’s so boring I can’t bring myself to play it.
But I don’t demand that every piece of content have a hard mode variant. I recognize there are players who like this content. I say good on them.
But your position is selfish. All content must be easy.
I’m actually fine with easy mode raids, with no rewards. But only if: (1) the living world team works on it, or (2) the raid team gets more members to offset the work involved.
But I don’t think your hypothetical players want that.
Finally, no one is excluding people from the content. You can go in right now. Nothing is stopping you.
So much this. If story/lore is what you actually want, then just ask for a cleared instance.
If you are a lore completionist, this won’t be enough — there’s a bit of interesting lore that happens right before, during, and after the encounters; it won’t appear in cleared instances. (In particular, releasing the Shackled Prisoner is a big deal to those interested in GW1’s story.)
Again, I’m not in favor of ANet spending resources to retrofit existing instances. I also don’t want to dismiss the interest of those primarily concerned with lore and I hope that ANet finds a way to address this for future wings.
Let’s get on that … right after easy mode arah.
But most of the lore is in a cleared instance or right before the fight. Or, heck, fight the boss and fail if you care about dialog.
I guess you didn’t read my second paragraph — I don’t think ANet should do this. I’m pointing out that not all the lore is available in a cleared instance and that lore is important to some people.
And there already is a story mode for Arah that can be done alone. And although explorable mode can be difficult for some, it’s not that hard to find a few people who can carry a couple of folks through. That’s not true for non-raiders wanting to experience the lore.
Again, even though I accept the lore-related argument, I still don’t think it’s a good use of ANet’s resources to add a story mode or even a different level of difficulty.
Arah path 4 is longer than all raid encounters and harder than, say, half of them. Everyone is complaining about raid easy mode, but where is my easy mode arah p4?
On the flip side, I don’t feel like a hero in the living story, because it’s too easy. Where’s the hard mode draconis mons?
There’s plenty of content to go around. It sounds selfish when you request that every single piece of lore cater to every player.
Plus, this is some side lore, not even the main story of guild wars 2.
First, it most definitely isnt selfish. Your example is faulty. The difference between Draconis Mons and the raids is that the Draconis Mons experience is not exclusionary in any sense. The same cannot be said of of the raid experience where off builds or playstyles result in extreme levels of frustration. And, if there were a way to include harder content in open world in a way that made sense, I would be all for it.
Second, there is no such thing as side lore. That is a semantic distinction one developer tried to float to justify exclusionary design – nothing more. These are stories that take place in the world of Tyria and involve characters/settings/etc in that world. And, they are stories players are interested in experiencing – that is what really matters. You could just as easily call all of the stories in the game side stories since there are several story arcs that have started or played out since the game started.
It’s 100% exclusionary. I don’t get the hero vibe from that content, so I’m excluded from being a hero.
Sure, I could get the lore from pressing 1 through the content, but that’s not the same as experiencing a heroic adventure.
… or, maybe it’s ok that guild wars 2 has a lot of content across all experience levels. Different strokes for different folks.
Storytelling differs between media. Douglas Adams (Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy) is famous for telling the same story in very different ways between four different media – the BBC radio broadcast, the books (which we are all familiar with), the movie (which he did write) and even a video game in the 80s.
And every one of them differed in extreme ways. He firmly believed that the medium through which the story is told is part of the story.
The point is, the story of the raids (however slight you think it is) was developed with this particular medium in mind. Expecting a cleared instance or youtube video to convey the experience of being a hero in this story (which is what we expect from a video game) is shortsighted.
It isn’t about lore. It is about the experience of being the hero in the story. That is how video games differ from movies, books, etc. That experience currently expects a number of people to play in ways they do not enjoy. Providing a story mode would be about giving them that experience – without having to impede with how the harder core raiders enjoy the story.
You may not see a need for it. You may think what is provided now is “good enough.” But that doesnt mean others feel that same way. GW2 has always been very good at making sure pretty much every build had a realistic and non-frustrating way to enjoy the content (yes, even in Arah explorable modes).
On the flip side, I don’t feel like a hero in the living story, because it’s too easy. Where’s the hard mode draconis mons?
There’s plenty of content to go around. It sounds selfish when you request that every single piece of lore cater to every player.
Plus, this is some side lore, not even the main story of guild wars 2.
So much this. If story/lore is what you actually want, then just ask for a cleared instance.
If you are a lore completionist, this won’t be enough — there’s a bit of interesting lore that happens right before, during, and after the encounters; it won’t appear in cleared instances. (In particular, releasing the Shackled Prisoner is a big deal to those interested in GW1’s story.)
Again, I’m not in favor of ANet spending resources to retrofit existing instances. I also don’t want to dismiss the interest of those primarily concerned with lore and I hope that ANet finds a way to address this for future wings.
Let’s get on that … right after easy mode arah.
But most of the lore is in a cleared instance or right before the fight. Or, heck, fight the boss and fail if you care about dialog.
People who can’t raid don’t really want to.
I took a 6-month hiatus, and tried the wing 4 bosses for that first time last week. The first three bosses are straightforward and doable by new players (having been one). My group beat each of those bosses after one or two tries. For comparison, it took me a week to beat VG and sloth when they first came out.
I had the benefit of experienced players. Of proven strategies and builds.
I’m glad to see that anet hasn’t budged on this, even with the same debate still being argued. After doing the living stories (once), raids and fractals are all I do now.
I honestly think cleared instances convey the story.
I don’t want to belabor too much, because you and I are falling back into the loop we always do (I think we are a lot alike in how headstrong we can be – and both probably have more free time than we should), but I will expound on this sentence, which I think gets to the heart of the issue.
In all reality, watching a youtube video of a guild clearing an instance does more to convey the story than a cleared instance or NPC dialogue. For me, the point of accessibility isn’t about conveying or telling the story – its about offering the experience of the story (kind of the point of a video game compared to other media such as movies or books) – to give players the sense of being the hero.
The very first time our characters talk to us, just after creation, they end with the same phrase: “This is my story,” not, “this is the story of the group that did this for me.”
I think that is a very important distinction.
Well, that’s fine. Personally, I think the story is in the environment. But, even so, they are not looking for a story mode, and I feel this discussion drowns out practical answers.
Here are the relevant quotes:
What are chances of getting more challenge moots in the current raids? To keep content more fresh and for groups to push themselves to be better?
Pretty high. We prefer to design new mechanics for them rather than just make them artificially harder, or at least come up with clever achievements. For example: There could have been an achievement in Spirit Vale to kill Sabetha while Karde is still alive. Achievements like that are interesting since it forces you to rethink the encounter a little. Things like “Do we burn Karde to 25% to trigger Sabetha to come back sooner, or do we wait out the timer so that we don’t accidentally kill him in the last phase?”
http://dulfy.net/2016/11/21/gw2-a-crack-in-the-ice-developers-reddit-ama/#Raids
So basically “we’re looking into it, but we don’t know if it’ll happen yet”.
BobbyStein 78 points 19 hours ago
Correct. Perhaps next time I’ll save people the panic and refrain from saying anything. I want to clarify that the only thing I actually said that we were looking into ways to make the story information accessible, not that we were planning any modes or changes to content.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/5frr5z/story_mode_raid/damqeha/
I honestly think cleared instances convey the story. If they’re looking for more, maybe a statue of each boss with a one liner? Like: Here lies, vale guardian, protecter of the spirit vale. Vanquished when glenna and her companions sought the missing pact members.
Maybe they could have an option to enter the raid as a 10-man group who initiate a “carebear” mote to make it a story-focused raid.
“carebear” (jokingly called such, meant as polar opposite to “challenge” – so “casual” or “safe”) mote should then make all monsters no stronger than what you find in open world zones. I.e. leave all encounters in, but make all monsters/bosses “elite” lvl 82/83 at best. The upside is everyone can still practice fun encounters and still overcome a slight challenge to get to experience the story.
The rewards should also be adjusted accordingly, i.e. in “carebear” mode, you get none of the exclusive raid rewards or achievement items. Bosses drop some champion boxes with rare/exotics as best possible outcome.How would people like that? (and don’t get too caught up on my naming of the mode)
Call them “story motes” or “training motes,” and I still think they would be the best solution. Instead of number tweaking, however, I think it would be more interesting if they did something else, such as adding in NPCs that healed, did damage or helped cc (or any combination, depending on what makes sense based on the fight).
First, they would allow for implementation of accessibility tools without full-scale raid revamps. They can be used only on the fights where they are needed. So, for example, in the current raid, they wouldn’t need to be implemented on the trio or escort.
Second, they allow for design flexibility. Instead of story motes on escort, for example, they could implement a challenge mote that buffed the final miniboss, gave the adds on the towers much stronger knockbacks and made the wargs immune to all ccs.
Next, they would give all players control over the raid experience and reward levels they desired. If your hardcore group just hates fighting the Vale Guardian for some reason, they could use the story mote there and power through it quicker to get to Gorseval. The same mechanic would allow beginner groups better access to easier fights – like trio – deeper into the raid.
Finally, it would allow Arenanet to implement this kind of accessibility at their own pace. They could release a raid as designed and, during the following months, implement the story and challenge motes incrementally, adding both new people to the raid scene and advanced challenges for harder core raiders.
There is precedent for this kind of system in the game. I don’t think it would be as time consuming to implement as a wholescale redo of a raid would. It would address both accessibility and ongoing challenge issues. It seems like a win-win to me.
The only precedence for this kind of system is infantile mode.
Adding unique mechanics seems like more work than adjusting numbers.
I don’t see any functional difference in terms of mote versus mode.
The easier, by far, solution to access any boss in the raid is to have the bosses be selectable (perhaps only to players with a cleared instance).
Easy mode raids will never be a win-win for raiders if it slows down raid development or makes it harder to find a group
Finally, I think we’ve reached the point where this discussion is actually detrimental to those that want to experience the story.
Bobby said that different modes are not currently on the table. By constantly harping on easy mode, you drown possible discussions on solutions they’ll actually implement.
Of course there is precedent. They have used the mote system to add challenge to individual fights many times in other areas of the game without implementing the wholescale changes new modes or tiers would likely require. They have even said they are open to adding motes to existing raids – in the recent AMA.
It isn’t a major leap to understand how those same tools could be used to improve accessibility. And it has the added advantages of flexibility and incremental implemention, lessening the impact on developer resources.
Keep in mind that whatever they do has to give the player the experience of being the hero in the story (gameplay of some kind), or it might as well just be a youtube video of a guild clearing the content. Any real solution that provides that accessibility will take developer resources. There is no way around that. I think the mote idea, which allows pinpoint rather than wholescale alterations, would have the smallest impact on those resources.
There’s no mote that makes a fight easier.
But, again, I’m not sure how this conversation helps at all. Motes, modes, whatever, are not on the table right now. If you really think there’s a problem with story access (beyond exploring a completed instance, which is interactive), and you think a video recap is bad (which is what they did for LS1), then you’re better off recommending something they’ll actually do.
Maybe they could have an option to enter the raid as a 10-man group who initiate a “carebear” mote to make it a story-focused raid.
“carebear” (jokingly called such, meant as polar opposite to “challenge” – so “casual” or “safe”) mote should then make all monsters no stronger than what you find in open world zones. I.e. leave all encounters in, but make all monsters/bosses “elite” lvl 82/83 at best. The upside is everyone can still practice fun encounters and still overcome a slight challenge to get to experience the story.
The rewards should also be adjusted accordingly, i.e. in “carebear” mode, you get none of the exclusive raid rewards or achievement items. Bosses drop some champion boxes with rare/exotics as best possible outcome.How would people like that? (and don’t get too caught up on my naming of the mode)
Call them “story motes” or “training motes,” and I still think they would be the best solution. Instead of number tweaking, however, I think it would be more interesting if they did something else, such as adding in NPCs that healed, did damage or helped cc (or any combination, depending on what makes sense based on the fight).
First, they would allow for implementation of accessibility tools without full-scale raid revamps. They can be used only on the fights where they are needed. So, for example, in the current raid, they wouldn’t need to be implemented on the trio or escort.
Second, they allow for design flexibility. Instead of story motes on escort, for example, they could implement a challenge mote that buffed the final miniboss, gave the adds on the towers much stronger knockbacks and made the wargs immune to all ccs.
Next, they would give all players control over the raid experience and reward levels they desired. If your hardcore group just hates fighting the Vale Guardian for some reason, they could use the story mote there and power through it quicker to get to Gorseval. The same mechanic would allow beginner groups better access to easier fights – like trio – deeper into the raid.
Finally, it would allow Arenanet to implement this kind of accessibility at their own pace. They could release a raid as designed and, during the following months, implement the story and challenge motes incrementally, adding both new people to the raid scene and advanced challenges for harder core raiders.
There is precedent for this kind of system in the game. I don’t think it would be as time consuming to implement as a wholescale redo of a raid would. It would address both accessibility and ongoing challenge issues. It seems like a win-win to me.
The only precedence for this kind of system is infantile mode.
Adding unique mechanics seems like more work than adjusting numbers.
I don’t see any functional difference in terms of mote versus mode.
The easier, by far, solution to access any boss in the raid is to have the bosses be selectable (perhaps only to players with a cleared instance).
Easy mode raids will never be a win-win for raiders if it slows down raid development or makes it harder to find a group
Finally, I think we’ve reached the point where this discussion is actually detrimental to those that want to experience the story.
Bobby said that different modes are not currently on the table. By constantly harping on easy mode, you drown possible discussions on solutions they’ll actually implement.
This is an important topic, and it’s important to try to cut through a lot of the misunderstandings and confusion about what a story mode would necessarily mean.
1) It would NOT mean taking away the challenging content.
2) It would NOT mean taking away the notoriety or honor involved with completing the “hard mode” raids, or even in one sense the exclusivity of the story itself. I am a veteran of another AAA MMO which always released the raids in three stages: first a standard mode, then later on a story mode and a nightmare mode.
The standard mode took some skill to complete, so only regular raiders could complete it on release. The story mode came out making it accessible to (mostly) everyone, but when the nightmare came out it was well known that only the best of the best could complete it. In fact, it even created more content and more prestige for this top tier of players, who had to work very hard to beat the nightmare mode.
Nobody was under any illusion that those who beat the story mode had accomplished anything of any real value, much less that they’d done anything comparable to the top tier players.
3) It would NOT necessarily mean earning the raid exclusive rewards. This is, I think, the point that has been most concerning to many. Ultimately, a story mode raid need not offer any of the raid specific rewards. Let it be for the STORY and the story alone.
I really can’t conceive of any reason to reject creating a story mode version of the raids if it’s clear that they are just for the story rather than rewards, prestige, etc.
This is what a lot of us are trying to say.
It isn’t about rewards.
It isn’t about denying or removing challenging content (there needs to be more of that in the game, imo).
It is about offering the experience of raiding and the stories they tell (no matter how minor) to more people.
I respect that the developers originally intended raids to serve one goal and only one goal. I just think that wasn’t the right direction for raids. And there are plenty of people who agree with us on that. I have friends who enjoy playing certain builds/professions, friends who don’t enjoy the minutia of preparing and grinding out raid attempts and friends who may be disabled/older/simply less skilled – all of whom I would really enjoy experiencing this 10-player content with. That is really all I want – to play with all of my friends – not just the small group that is willing to spend the time and attention raids require – all of them. That is what GW2 has always offered the community. I don’t want to see that change.
So, once again and hopefully for the last time – this has NEVER been about removing or hindering challenging content in the game. For me (and many others), it has never been about getting something for little or no effort. It is about wanting to play with friends simply because they are my friends – nothing more.
If we’re just talking about story, then a cinematic would solve these complaints. (Despite that all story elements are in a completed instance). They did the same thing for LS1.
I think you’re mixing your goals here (getting your friends in raids). First, you could just bring them along. Second, this would be a problem for any hard content in the game (like arah/aetherpath). Third, any additional mode does impact raids, because it slows down development of future raids, and requires them to retrofit all the previous ones.
If you could promise that it wouldn’t slow down any raids, no one would care (other than thinking that it would be a failure).
How is that a problem for any other hard instanced content then raids?
You can take 4 hours to kill each boss in arah/aetherpath that you used as examples.If a cinematic is all they plan on implementing how about they link a youtube video that show all the wings instead less work same result.
I agree that youtube + a completed instance should satisfy anyone who cares that much about the story.
You can also take as long as you want in most raids, assuming you can survive. However, I think theory is pointless here — lupi would stymie an unskilled player just as much as vg would.
Yes but people can solo lupi can you solo any of the raid bosses?
People are getting close they just 3 manned Vg… give it a little time and someone will find a way.
that was before the last balance changes wasent it?
Lots of dungeon paths are not solo-able — this seems to be a stupid benchmark anyway.
But I love my Power Reaper…
This one sentence explains the entire problem with raids in GW2 right now.
Playing the profession/build you most enjoyed was okay when the game first came out, but for those players wanting to raid, ArenaNet has adopted a policy of min/max or go away – or, at the very least, min/max or forever be looked down upon by the raid community (because of the huge disparity between professions/builds)
It has been bad for the game. It has brought elitism and nastiness once reserved or a tiny percentage of dungeon/fractal runners front and center in the GW2 endgame.
A game that used to be about just enjoying yourself and creating characters that were just a tiny bit unique is now about copy pasting and conforming to a single accepted playstyle.
And, the worst part is, it isn’t necessary. It is 100% possible to implement challenging content without doing this. For some bizarre reason, the developers have begun moving away from the inclusive and fun-focused philosophy they had in the early game days toward the toxic mess the game is currently becoming.
I know that sounds extreme, but I hate seeing this happen to GW2. What was once this shining unique gem in the market has become another me-too clone-the-player-next-to-you game. And, I think their approach to raids are the single biggest reason for that.
3 years ago: Why won’t groups take my bear bow ranger? I do a lot of damage away from the group, my bear tanks, and my knock backs keep the enemies away.
But seriously, the fix is to buff power reaper. It’s also underperforming in pvp and wvw.
Yes and all welcome none meta group took those players and completed dungeons just fine.
As is also possible with raids.
Yes it would be if time limitation went out the window sure.
The enrage is not a problem, considering there have even been groups who killed vale guardian after 50 minutes of constant fighting because they decided to run ten heal eles.
Yea I seen the 10 guardian vale guardian aswell…. were are the 10 ranger, 10 engi, 10 necro, 10 warrior, 10 thief, 10 mesmer and 10 revenant kills tho?
And can you do it on any of the other 8 bosses not counting escort here.
Yes? Plus, I’m not sure how this has to do with the enrage timer … or anything at all.
I agree. And it eventually damages a game.
So, instead…
Action:
Make harder content for people that like challenge. Create rewards for said content.Consequence:
People that can’t get it done, demand the another version of it because “I paid for the game too”Action:
Ignore them.Result:
People that actually PAYING for the game leaving due to the lack of content. Anet getting worst financial results ever.And how this is better, eh?
Aren’t you the guy who said the paying people already left ?
At this moment we’re still at the “ignore them” stage. Some people left, but they may yet return. Others haven’t left yet, but aren’t paying anymore – and eventually will leave if this continues.
Not according to the guy who quotes every earnings report ever for HoT here and blames the decline on solely on Raids.
But i guess you just want to ignore that part of his history for your own amusement ?
Decline is a process, not something that happens one day, when you go from the full community to an empty one.
Yes, the people are leaving. Not everyone has left yet. Both statements are true.
I think it’s due to wvw — the new borderlands was not well received.
This is an important topic, and it’s important to try to cut through a lot of the misunderstandings and confusion about what a story mode would necessarily mean.
1) It would NOT mean taking away the challenging content.
2) It would NOT mean taking away the notoriety or honor involved with completing the “hard mode” raids, or even in one sense the exclusivity of the story itself. I am a veteran of another AAA MMO which always released the raids in three stages: first a standard mode, then later on a story mode and a nightmare mode.
The standard mode took some skill to complete, so only regular raiders could complete it on release. The story mode came out making it accessible to (mostly) everyone, but when the nightmare came out it was well known that only the best of the best could complete it. In fact, it even created more content and more prestige for this top tier of players, who had to work very hard to beat the nightmare mode.
Nobody was under any illusion that those who beat the story mode had accomplished anything of any real value, much less that they’d done anything comparable to the top tier players.
3) It would NOT necessarily mean earning the raid exclusive rewards. This is, I think, the point that has been most concerning to many. Ultimately, a story mode raid need not offer any of the raid specific rewards. Let it be for the STORY and the story alone.
I really can’t conceive of any reason to reject creating a story mode version of the raids if it’s clear that they are just for the story rather than rewards, prestige, etc.
This is what a lot of us are trying to say.
It isn’t about rewards.
It isn’t about denying or removing challenging content (there needs to be more of that in the game, imo).
It is about offering the experience of raiding and the stories they tell (no matter how minor) to more people.
I respect that the developers originally intended raids to serve one goal and only one goal. I just think that wasn’t the right direction for raids. And there are plenty of people who agree with us on that. I have friends who enjoy playing certain builds/professions, friends who don’t enjoy the minutia of preparing and grinding out raid attempts and friends who may be disabled/older/simply less skilled – all of whom I would really enjoy experiencing this 10-player content with. That is really all I want – to play with all of my friends – not just the small group that is willing to spend the time and attention raids require – all of them. That is what GW2 has always offered the community. I don’t want to see that change.
So, once again and hopefully for the last time – this has NEVER been about removing or hindering challenging content in the game. For me (and many others), it has never been about getting something for little or no effort. It is about wanting to play with friends simply because they are my friends – nothing more.
If we’re just talking about story, then a cinematic would solve these complaints. (Despite that all story elements are in a completed instance). They did the same thing for LS1.
I think you’re mixing your goals here (getting your friends in raids). First, you could just bring them along. Second, this would be a problem for any hard content in the game (like arah/aetherpath). Third, any additional mode does impact raids, because it slows down development of future raids, and requires them to retrofit all the previous ones.
If you could promise that it wouldn’t slow down any raids, no one would care (other than thinking that it would be a failure).
How is that a problem for any other hard instanced content then raids?
You can take 4 hours to kill each boss in arah/aetherpath that you used as examples.If a cinematic is all they plan on implementing how about they link a youtube video that show all the wings instead less work same result.
I agree that youtube + a completed instance should satisfy anyone who cares that much about the story.
You can also take as long as you want in most raids, assuming you can survive. However, I think theory is pointless here — lupi would stymie an unskilled player just as much as vg would.
But I love my Power Reaper…
This one sentence explains the entire problem with raids in GW2 right now.
Playing the profession/build you most enjoyed was okay when the game first came out, but for those players wanting to raid, ArenaNet has adopted a policy of min/max or go away – or, at the very least, min/max or forever be looked down upon by the raid community (because of the huge disparity between professions/builds)
It has been bad for the game. It has brought elitism and nastiness once reserved or a tiny percentage of dungeon/fractal runners front and center in the GW2 endgame.
A game that used to be about just enjoying yourself and creating characters that were just a tiny bit unique is now about copy pasting and conforming to a single accepted playstyle.
And, the worst part is, it isn’t necessary. It is 100% possible to implement challenging content without doing this. For some bizarre reason, the developers have begun moving away from the inclusive and fun-focused philosophy they had in the early game days toward the toxic mess the game is currently becoming.
I know that sounds extreme, but I hate seeing this happen to GW2. What was once this shining unique gem in the market has become another me-too clone-the-player-next-to-you game. And, I think their approach to raids are the single biggest reason for that.
3 years ago: Why won’t groups take my bear bow ranger? I do a lot of damage away from the group, my bear tanks, and my knock backs keep the enemies away.
But seriously, the fix is to buff power reaper. It’s also underperforming in pvp and wvw.
Yes and all welcome none meta group took those players and completed dungeons just fine.
As is also possible with raids.
Yes it would be if time limitation went out the window sure.
I can’t tell if you raid or not, but the enrage timer is not a problem 99% of the time. Bosses are easier if you kill them faster though, because you deal with fewer mechanics. Plus, groups (even pugs) beat the bosses with less than 10 players all the time.
Why can’t you just buy raids with the gold you earn in other activities? That’s functionally the same thing as a reward track.
In theory, you would be correct on that, but they have so broken the gold economy that it’s not worth considering at this point. The fundamental flaw they made was that they allowed people to buy items off the TP, and then resell them for more gold than they paid. This causes the gold value of luxury goods to rise to well amove any reasonable amount. I’m sure that raiders love the idea of people paying them thousands of gold to get Legendary Armor, but it doesn’t work out well for anyone else.
I think this response shows that he wants to press 1 to receive rewards.
This is an important topic, and it’s important to try to cut through a lot of the misunderstandings and confusion about what a story mode would necessarily mean.
1) It would NOT mean taking away the challenging content.
2) It would NOT mean taking away the notoriety or honor involved with completing the “hard mode” raids, or even in one sense the exclusivity of the story itself. I am a veteran of another AAA MMO which always released the raids in three stages: first a standard mode, then later on a story mode and a nightmare mode.
The standard mode took some skill to complete, so only regular raiders could complete it on release. The story mode came out making it accessible to (mostly) everyone, but when the nightmare came out it was well known that only the best of the best could complete it. In fact, it even created more content and more prestige for this top tier of players, who had to work very hard to beat the nightmare mode.
Nobody was under any illusion that those who beat the story mode had accomplished anything of any real value, much less that they’d done anything comparable to the top tier players.
3) It would NOT necessarily mean earning the raid exclusive rewards. This is, I think, the point that has been most concerning to many. Ultimately, a story mode raid need not offer any of the raid specific rewards. Let it be for the STORY and the story alone.
I really can’t conceive of any reason to reject creating a story mode version of the raids if it’s clear that they are just for the story rather than rewards, prestige, etc.
This is what a lot of us are trying to say.
It isn’t about rewards.
It isn’t about denying or removing challenging content (there needs to be more of that in the game, imo).
It is about offering the experience of raiding and the stories they tell (no matter how minor) to more people.
I respect that the developers originally intended raids to serve one goal and only one goal. I just think that wasn’t the right direction for raids. And there are plenty of people who agree with us on that. I have friends who enjoy playing certain builds/professions, friends who don’t enjoy the minutia of preparing and grinding out raid attempts and friends who may be disabled/older/simply less skilled – all of whom I would really enjoy experiencing this 10-player content with. That is really all I want – to play with all of my friends – not just the small group that is willing to spend the time and attention raids require – all of them. That is what GW2 has always offered the community. I don’t want to see that change.
So, once again and hopefully for the last time – this has NEVER been about removing or hindering challenging content in the game. For me (and many others), it has never been about getting something for little or no effort. It is about wanting to play with friends simply because they are my friends – nothing more.
If we’re just talking about story, then a cinematic would solve these complaints. (Despite that all story elements are in a completed instance). They did the same thing for LS1.
I think you’re mixing your goals here (getting your friends in raids). First, you could just bring them along. Second, this would be a problem for any hard content in the game (like arah/aetherpath). Third, any additional mode does impact raids, because it slows down development of future raids, and requires them to retrofit all the previous ones.
If you could promise that it wouldn’t slow down any raids, no one would care (other than thinking that it would be a failure).
But I love my Power Reaper…
This one sentence explains the entire problem with raids in GW2 right now.
Playing the profession/build you most enjoyed was okay when the game first came out, but for those players wanting to raid, ArenaNet has adopted a policy of min/max or go away – or, at the very least, min/max or forever be looked down upon by the raid community (because of the huge disparity between professions/builds)
It has been bad for the game. It has brought elitism and nastiness once reserved or a tiny percentage of dungeon/fractal runners front and center in the GW2 endgame.
A game that used to be about just enjoying yourself and creating characters that were just a tiny bit unique is now about copy pasting and conforming to a single accepted playstyle.
And, the worst part is, it isn’t necessary. It is 100% possible to implement challenging content without doing this. For some bizarre reason, the developers have begun moving away from the inclusive and fun-focused philosophy they had in the early game days toward the toxic mess the game is currently becoming.
I know that sounds extreme, but I hate seeing this happen to GW2. What was once this shining unique gem in the market has become another me-too clone-the-player-next-to-you game. And, I think their approach to raids are the single biggest reason for that.
3 years ago: Why won’t groups take my bear bow ranger? I do a lot of damage away from the group, my bear tanks, and my knock backs keep the enemies away.
But seriously, the fix is to buff power reaper. It’s also underperforming in pvp and wvw.
Yes and all welcome none meta group took those players and completed dungeons just fine.
As is also possible with raids.
Hold on people … don’t get too excited over what Bobby said there. It was a little vague but you can see a big diversion from anything raid-like in that statement.
They are investigating DIFFERENT METHODS to make the story more ACCESSIBLE. That tells me it’s not raid, as we know it in GW2.
Yeah, people should hold their panic and speculation. I haven’t said anything other than we’re looking at ways to make the story accessible. That could take any number of forms.
;)
I also thought your reddit comment provided some context:
Correct. Perhaps next time I’ll save people the panic and refrain from saying anything. I want to clarify that the only thing I actually said that we were looking into ways to make the story information accessible, not that we were planning any modes or changes to content.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/5frr5z/story_mode_raid/damqeha/
Why can’t you just buy raids with the gold you earn in other activities? That’s functionally the same thing as a reward track.
I know you’re joking, but the truth is that doesn’t work for the same reason that entering a completely cleared instance doesn’t work.
Video game storytelling is about more than the words and the lore. It is about personally experiencing the story – fighting the fights (even if they aren’t hardcore) and being the hero of the story.
Buying the story from someone else or taking a tour after the fact just aren’t fun or interesting for most people.
He is complaining about rewards, not story.
Why can’t you just buy raids with the gold you earn in other activities? That’s functionally the same thing as a reward track.
I think this is why people hate these discussions … there are very real problems with power reaper, but people become obsessed with bashing raids.
I’m not sure how you expect anet to make hard content, while simultaneously expecting trash builds like bear bow to be successful.
(Pug) raiders don’t want to carry anyone. Use the best build or the snowflake build with people you know. This is no different than pvp.
The actual problem is when the best build is still bad, like with power necro.
Not everyone hates these discussions – and I still think it would be more productive to focus on the conversation more than other players.
The issue is much bigger than just Power Necros – and even if power necros get “fixed,” that systemic issue remains. The gap between top and bottom performers is way too wide. Can that be fixed with simple balancing, and, if so, what is the easiest path to accomplishing that? Personally, I think it requires systemic, rather than localized, solutions (cure the disease and the symptoms dissipate on their own)
And which builds/playstyles should be acceptable and which shouldn’t? What are the defining characteristics of a raiding build/playstyle in the game? Is it okay for a profession to be viable with a condi build, but complete trash with any power build (or vice versa)? Are their utilities that all professions should be able to bring? When does the utility of a profession justify a drop in potential dps?
This isn’t a simple issue and it isn’t going away anytime soon. A systemic (disease rather than symptom focused) solution is needed.
Do you have the same views towards pvp and wvw? If not why not?
If a utility, trait, weapon, or skill is useless in all 3 game modes, it should be fixed.
Easy mode is not a fix because the problem would still exist in the normal raid.
I think this is why people hate these discussions … there are very real problems with power reaper, but people become obsessed with bashing raids.
I’m not sure how you expect anet to make hard content, while simultaneously expecting trash builds like bear bow to be successful.
(Pug) raiders don’t want to carry anyone. Use the best build or the snowflake build with people you know. This is no different than pvp.
The actual problem is when the best build is still bad, like with power necro.
(edited by Absurdo.8309)
But I love my Power Reaper…
This one sentence explains the entire problem with raids in GW2 right now.
Playing the profession/build you most enjoyed was okay when the game first came out, but for those players wanting to raid, ArenaNet has adopted a policy of min/max or go away – or, at the very least, min/max or forever be looked down upon by the raid community (because of the huge disparity between professions/builds)
It has been bad for the game. It has brought elitism and nastiness once reserved or a tiny percentage of dungeon/fractal runners front and center in the GW2 endgame.
A game that used to be about just enjoying yourself and creating characters that were just a tiny bit unique is now about copy pasting and conforming to a single accepted playstyle.
And, the worst part is, it isn’t necessary. It is 100% possible to implement challenging content without doing this. For some bizarre reason, the developers have begun moving away from the inclusive and fun-focused philosophy they had in the early game days toward the toxic mess the game is currently becoming.
I know that sounds extreme, but I hate seeing this happen to GW2. What was once this shining unique gem in the market has become another me-too clone-the-player-next-to-you game. And, I think their approach to raids are the single biggest reason for that.
3 years ago: Why won’t groups take my bear bow ranger? I do a lot of damage away from the group, my bear tanks, and my knock backs keep the enemies away.
But seriously, the fix is to buff power reaper. It’s also underperforming in pvp and wvw.
Re rewards: I’ll just point out, again, that all game modes have exclusive rewards.
Really only deserves one sentence at this point.
And I’ll just point out again, that no game modes should.
He doesn’t care, he/she/it only wants the rewards he feels he can’t get normally. Never have I seen him actually advocate on getting alternate methods of acquisition for all Legendary rewards.
Then you haven’t been in the right threads, but I do pick the battles I choose to fight, just as someone might give money to one charity, without that meaning that he believes that all other charities are not worth supporting.
Come on man we just discussed this a few days back. It is your opinion that no game mode should have exclusive rewards. This is NOT fact. I believe 100% the opposite, that the ideal game state is where all game modes have multiple sets of rewards that are unique to that game mode. The socialist reward style of gaming is just an opinion, not factually any better or worse.
Plus, you can get legendary armor through any game mode … just buy raids.