Guild Wars 2

Jestunhi.7429:

Still no mention of how it would be an improvement…

Then you’re just blind?
IE: You aren’t willing to see “how” it can work and would rather just down play it.

Which is fine ~ but until you open your eyes, you may want to avoid topics like this.

~ Just my 2 cents ~

Jestunhi.7429:

AlexanderFaust.4518:

Jestunhi.7429:

Who said the game didn’t have to change?

Not wanting artificial gating is the not same as not wanting new content or changes to existing systems / content, nor is it the same as not wanting challenging mechanics.

Think you missed the point..
IE: Your point of view is that “gates are bad” ~ thus you cannot see how to utilize them without making the game a grind.

Based on that stance alone ~ YES, you are saying you don’t want GW2 to change.

I think you missed the point…

Not liking a specific change != not liking change.

Instead of telling me I’m wrong, how about you explain why it would be an improvement?

Ok, let me be a bit more transparent for ya then::
Point = Just because YOU cannot see something, doesn’t mean it cannot work.

Gated content works multiple ways.. in more than just “gear score requirements ta get into dungeon/raid”.

It also promotes a sense of “ownership” or attachment to your character and the game it’s a part of.

Much like:
League of Legends has IP/Runes/Champs/Skins.
WoW has Raid Epics and is a “Subscription” MMO.

Some first person shooters also have Ranked PvP that “levels up” on a seperate path from the main champagne.. thus the more you play, the better you get and the more “neat” stuff you unlock for use in PvP and PvE/Champagne.

The problem with GW2 is that you get pretty much “everything” from the get go and leveling is a breeze ~ thus there’s nothing to actually work towards.. and without said “gates”, people aren’t attached to their accounts.

Anywho, lunch break is almost over, so when I get home later today, I’ll come back ta give you a few more PvE examples.

Unless someone else chimes in before then.

I’d also recommend ya check out my other topics.. more specifically::
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/community/links/Rewarding-Gear-Treadmill/first#post422003

Jestunhi.7429:

Who said the game didn’t have to change?

Not wanting artificial gating is the not same as not wanting new content or changes to existing systems / content, nor is it the same as not wanting challenging mechanics.

Think you missed the point..
IE: Your point of view is that “gates are bad” ~ thus you cannot see how to utilize them without making the game a grind.

Based on that stance alone ~ YES, you are saying you don’t want GW2 to change.

Jestunhi.7429:

Millenx.7905:

Mammoth.1975:

You want artificial gating, preventing you from accessing content A until you’ve done content B? Interesting.

essentially yes, I want that feeling of progression and working towards something rather than having it all handed to you on a plate.

Having to do everything in a linear “content A then content B” is not the opposite of being given everything on a plate.

It’s the opposite of being able to choose which content you want to participate in instead of having to go through a chain of previous content to access that specific bit.

It’s not a case of one way being hard and the other way giving you free rewards unless that’s the developers intention. Fighting a harder boss with better gear isn’t necessarily harder because the better gear nullifies part of the advantage that the harder boss has.

It’s funny tho, isn’t it?

People go on and on about “freedom of choice” ~ yet completely ignore what that mentality promotes.

IE: Anyone can do it, why care?

Sure it’s GREAT for the user base, that doesn’t want to be tied down to one game.. but that is also the problem.

People that get into GW2 have no reason to stick around.

IE: Sure it was fun for a while.. but there’s no sense of “ownership” or strife they’ve had to endure, in order to progress ~ Unless you think grinding for legendary weapons is a “must” for everyone.

At the end of the day, the only argument fans have.. is that it’s “fun” for them. ~ So if you’re not having fun, then it’s not the games fault.

It’s pretty sad to see, that fans are their own worst enemy ~ in that proclaiming your game doesn’t need to change, only means it will rot and stagnate.

I made a topic about this, sadly was moved to “linksville” ~ feel free ta check it out and maybe jump on the suggestions forums ta give ANet a few ideas of your own.

LINK::
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/community/links/Rewarding-Gear-Treadmill

Kendu Kuzal.3985:

Just to clarify, I think GW2 has the POTENTIAL to be an E-Sport type of game.. I don’t believe it is ready NOW though.

Ah, but see that’s the point of the topic

What would you like to see “done” to help push ANet in the right direction?

Granted, all ideas need to be tempered against the GW2 philosophy ~ most easily found in their Manifesto ~ http://youtu.be/35BPhT-KI1E

TrickSmartly.7391:

It needs to keep its viewers on twitch over 200 first. Some day it might even get there.

Back when Towelliee and Kungen were playing GW2 on twitch.tv ~ they had between 12,000 and 20,000 viewers between the two of them, on a daily basis.

But, both of those guys went back to WoW and are doing dailies/raids/ect… and BOTH said that GW2 just doesn’t have anything more to do than Skyrim w/co-op.

If you’re looking for what they focused on:

Toweliee did Non-stop World vs World with his guilds.. dominating every server they could, leveling almost consecutively using WvW.

Kungen played GW2 through to lv80 on his main.. doing all the dungeons, ect ~ before he left GW2, he was playing around on an alt in sPvP.

There’s also another name for GW2.. but to my knowledge he doens’t stream ~ and that’s Woodenpotato. You can find his youtube channel here:: www.youtube.com/user/WoodenPotatoes

Kendu Kuzal.3985:

Real E-Sport happens in Tribes: Ascend
Hi-Rez is also working on Smite, which looks like it’ll be an E-Sport staple as well.

GW2 has a ton of potential to be that sort of game.

uh… you didn’t write anything about “why or why not”.

Though, personally… I would hope that ANet would NOT follow in High-Rez’s footsteps to be honest.

Mainly because of how they treat their games..

IE: High-Rez actually abandoned Tribes Ascend for Smite.. and Smite isn’t even out of beta with the announcement that they’ll be focusing on Global Agenda 2.

I mean, they’re a small studio and their games keep being abandoned due to their in ability to care about people “cheating”.

Which hardly makes for a good eSport.

@Geff
Perhaps.. but does that really have any weight on the topic?

In league of legends, you have 30 levels.. used to get a player adjusted to the game and balance out “who” you’re fighting (IE: How experienced they are).

Progression in this manner is assisted by IP/Runes/Champ Pool.
In that you’re not overwhelmed with “choices” from the get go and can learn the game at your own pace.

GW2 doesn’t have that.. it’s “all or nothing” zero progression.. and unless you also PvE, you’ll have no attachment to your account what so ever.

At that point, there are also no actual tie-ins from PvE to PvP.. as you said, they’re separate ~ while that’s good for the eSport, it doesn’t do anything for the longevity of the game.

In this instance, GW2 incorporated WvW ~ which IS a tie-in!

This is where you go to fight other people and ofcourse, experience the world, to an extent.

However, WvW is currently suffering from “spam combat” ~ in that your individual skill or that of your “team” is irrelevant to the outcome, as all the other side needs to counter you… are more “aoe’s”.

This means that anyone that likes sPvP wont really bother with WvW and again.. GW2 lose that tie-in.

In otherwords.. sure GW2 is “2 games in one” ~ but can that really be considered a good thing? ~ given how it’s currently handled.

@Qelris
It’s a game people play “competitively” usually for money via tournaments and ranked ladders.

Also see::
StarCraft 2
DotA2
Call of Duty

UPDATE::
Documentary of an eSport Phenomenon ~
http://www.gametrailers.com/full-episodes/deply5/shift-the-league-of-legends-phenomenon

/UPDATE
_____________________________

With the recent announcement from League of Legends..

League of Legends is the most played game in the world
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/news/league-legends-community-infographic

Do you think Guild Wars 2 has what it takes to be a popular eSport?

Perhaps we could pick them apart.. and see what we can use to add to Guild Wars 2 that we don’t already have?

League offers::
1. PvP balance via Profile levels and Elo.
2. Player Progression utilizing the IP/Runes.
3. Potential “challenge” of pwning teh nubs!.. or getting your own face melted.
4. Options in available champion pool, summoner spells and character builds.

Oh and mascots, need something cute n’fluffy that’s fun to play and satisfying ta KILL!

LoL = Teemo
GW2 = ???
Other expamples.. FF = Moogles, Cactuar, Tonberry, ect..

*So what is GW2 missing?.. beyond the over-examination of “class balance” ~ what could they improve upon?

//Discuss ~

UPDATE::
I’m seeing some people are confused at GW2 being an eSport…
Basically, ANet announced their intentions to become an eSport awhile back.

Can see articles here:
http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/08/21/guild-wars-2-paves-the-way-for-e-sports/

http://www.pcgamer.com/2012/08/21/guild-wars-2-pvp-designer-talks-e-sports-spectator-mode-and-streaming/

Also consider other modes that we currently don’t have access too, for example::

Hunger Royal::
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IgkLIB0GgaY&feature=youtu.be

Ah and if you want to see my previous article talking about PvE in GW2 Vs. LoL ~ can check it out here:: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/community/links/Rewarding-Gear-Treadmill

Kendu Kuzal.3985:

AlexanderFaust.4518:

Kendu Kuzal.3985:

Too long to quote, due to character limit

uh... WOW.. I’m not really sure where to begin with that =/

No disrespect intended but why should people "create an alt and explore the rest of the content" or even bother getting 100% on their main, IF they don’t enjoy what they’ve already experienced in GW2?

The main reason I quit was due to an inability to find anyone ta do anything with.. and I’ve got 2 lv80’s ~ a Necro and Elementalist ~ 6 crafting professions at lv400.. and yet like the screenshot I’ve attached to this, you can see that I’ve not gotten past lv26 on my personal stories nor any more than 44% on world completion.

I’ve been to Orr, I’ve fought dragons and I’ve died in dungeon..

Long story short, not even server hoping or guild prostituting helped me find anyone that wanted to actually "experience" the game.. despite server hoping to more "populated" servers for a few weeks.

Most of them just wanted to "farm" or exploit a dungeon... and if you didn’t know "how" then they weren’t interested in you tagging along.

Thus turning GW2 into a single player game.. with occasional "co-op".

Anywho, I created a topic to help people better understand what’s wrong with GW2 and the mentality behind "good suggestions".

Feel free to check it out.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/community/links/Rewarding-Gear-Treadmill

Also, since you were talking about people "learning game design" and "appreciating the time spent" ~ why not take some time ta learn yourself?

Can check out my tutorials on 3D/Animation/Game Design via youtube ~ User = Requiemsvoid.

I’m not sure what servers you played, but I have had no problems finding people to play through and experience the game with on Maguuma. It’s not even an RP server and plenty of people are around to quest and explore with.

As for game design. I’m a Software Programmer by trade. I build mobile games and I do art for 2-d interfaces on the side. I’m well versed in 3dsm, Maya and I started to get into Zbrush on personal time. I’m no stranger to game development or MMO’s for that matter.

The mechanics and fluidity and GW2 are incredible in comparison to most of the garbage out there. They gave a lot of freedom to the player which is hard to do in such a massive game. I wouldn’t say it’s sandbox, but it does give the player quite a bit to play with as well.

The leveling phases of this game really do not lend themselves as well to co-operative play.. But the PvP and WvWvW do. Those two elements are a major portion of this game in the first place. They are the reason there is such a deep customization within classes. That being said, I still think there is a plethora of other players that would love to experience the game and enjoy it all the way through. I know.. I’ve met them and I am one.

This game has some problems, but it’s a totally different animal than WoW or SWTOR. The first Guild Wars was nothing like other MMORPG’s that were out either. Sure this game shares some elements with modern MMORPGs but it is by no means the same. This game is already doing many things better than other games, and you have to remember this ISN’T other games. What worked in those won’t necessarily work with these game mechanics or even the story. A lot of the comments I read have no factual basis and really are nothing more than unsubstantiated opinion.

Perhaps.. but the "end result" remains the same.

IE: Doesn’t matter how "complicated" GW2 is on the software side.. if it’s not "perceived" as fun for the masses, then you run into the problem’s we’re currently experiencing with the player base... or lack there of.

Not sure you’ve been following TSW, but they too claim to have built an amazing game that’s unique an unlike any other MMO in software alone.

But does that mean it’s "fun"?... does that mean people will enjoy it? ~ nope!

The game suffers from poor animations, floaty combat (similar to GW2) and lack luster "end game" ~ in comparison to "other" MMOs.

Can check out an interview here:
http://penny-arcade.com/report/editorial-article/life-after-layoffs-the-former-lead-designer-of-secret-world-looks-back-on-t

At the end of the day.. people don’t "care" bout how much work you put into something... it all comes down to whether or not THEY can enjoy it.

Good or bad.. that’s just the way the cookie crumbles =/

Kendu Kuzal.3985:

Too long to quote, due to character limit

uh… WOW.. I’m not really sure where to begin with that =/

No disrespect intended but why should people “create an alt and explore the rest of the content” or even bother getting 100% on their main, IF they don’t enjoy what they’ve already experienced in GW2?

The main reason I quit was due to an inability to find anyone ta do anything with.. and I’ve got 2 lv80’s ~ a Necro and Elementalist ~ 6 crafting professions at lv400.. and yet like the screenshot I’ve attached to this, you can see that I’ve not gotten past lv26 on my personal stories nor any more than 44% on world completion.

I’ve been to Orr, I’ve fought dragons and I’ve died in dungeon..

Long story short, not even server hoping or guild prostituting helped me find anyone that wanted to actually “experience” the game.. despite server hoping to more “populated” servers for a few weeks.

Most of them just wanted to “farm” or exploit a dungeon… and if you didn’t know “how” then they weren’t interested in you tagging along.

Thus turning GW2 into a single player game.. with occasional “co-op”.

Anywho, I created a topic to help people better understand what’s wrong with GW2 and the mentality behind “good suggestions”.

Feel free to check it out.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/community/links/Rewarding-Gear-Treadmill

Also, since you were talking about people “learning game design” and “appreciating the time spent” ~ why not take some time ta learn yourself?

Can check out my tutorials on 3D/Animation/Game Design via youtube ~ User = Requiemsvoid.

Hmmm….. IF this was my first MMO?

I don’t think I would’ve even purchased it tbh.

What I mean by that, is my first MMO was Rappelz.
F2P, P2W, Asian Grinder.

And the ONLY reason I’d played it, was because I was bored outta my mind.. waiting for console releases.

Basically, all my friends talked trash bout WoW.. and how only “no-lifers” played such games. (friends aren’t part of the PC master race and we all played console games).

So I’d have never forked over money for an MMO, being that WoW is basically the “king” of this genre and perceived by the non-mmo players as “good as it’s gonna get”.

TL;DR
Had I not played a F2P title and seen what good “features” MMO’s had.. I wouldn’t of even bothered to look at GW2 being my first MMO.

On a side note, one of the main reasons I liked the trailer for GW2 is because of my experiences in Warhammer Online.

#Loved me some public quests

@Zakh
Thanks for the critique and support

I made a topic in general discussion you maybe interested in::
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Rewarding-Gear-Treadmill

@Quells
I actually talk about that very same idea in my intro to this thread.

If anything.. it’s prolly the easiest “fix” the devs can implement, while they work on other “things”.

However, it is kind of a bandaid.. and combat in general would still need to be look at.

ohhhh, can I has your graphics card?

lol, jk ~ ANet did a good job, though it is kinda nice ta see what it’s “supposed” ta look like XD

Leiloni.7951:

I dunno, I really enjoyed the combat in TERA which did that but I also really like GW2’s combat and I’m not sure how it would turn out in GW2. So I’m on the fence. I might say keep GW2’s combat as is unless they create some demo that just blows me away with awesomeness.

I’m guessing you haven’t seen the mod then?

Can check it out here::
http://youtu.be/CAnkOOixuDo

Sad day…
Its like no one bothers reading the suggestions area =/

Perhaps this will help with your dragon dilemma::
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/Combat-Dynamic-Events-what-s-the-point-if-they-re-easy-mode/page/1

Also a topic on “challenge”::
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/community/links/Rewarding-Gear-Treadmill

@Hughs
lol… ya know, I sat here and wrote a WHOLE freak’n article in reply to Red Falcon, trying to elegantly state what you did in so few sentences

Kudos, Mr. Hughs ~ kudos!

…I’m still gonna post my reply tho! XD

Red Falcon.8257:

I agree that GW2 lacks greatly in regards of PvE in difficulty, but I’m pretty sure they will come up with Hard Modes.

There is a lot of people out there who will sadly rage quit over any complicated difficulty, and they are paying customers too.
That’s why having Normal and Hard mode is good rather than making changes to the difficulty just to cater to one part of the audience, while disappointing the other part.

They just need to bring back good ol’ HM.

Hmm, Hard Mode wont really solve anything…
I mean, we’re talking about a problem with the core mechanics here.

IE: Can you REALLY say that Just giving mobs more HP/DMG/ZergAds is gonna make it all better? ~ it’s nothing a few more people spamming aoe’s wont solve.

Basically, GW2 has “casual” content in spades! ~ but what they don’t have, is anything worth “doing” for people that want “more”.

Despite how much they talked about having such content in the Manifesto and all those blogs/diaries leading up into launch.

IE: No, the boss does NOT care that I’m there… he’ll just respawn in 10 mins anyways =/
____________

I guess to look at the bigger picture…
1. WoW = Raids.
2. LoL = Ranked..

*Both are games that’ve successfully catered to casual AND hardcore gamers.
Meanwhile, GW2 doesn’t… for fear of becoming a “typical raid/gear grind mmo”.

It’s almost like they’re holding themselves back…

lol, unless you count Legendaries ~ but those aren’t really challenging ta get..

As all you need is the proper amount of gold / karma ~ I’ve even seen people posting on DAChat about getting their Legendary via spending some cash in RMT sites ta get most the “mats” through the Trading Post.

I guess what I’m getting at.. is that when you look at WoW and Raids or LoL and Ranked… the people right now, that are happy with GW2 seem to be those same people that would never touch a Raid/Ranked ~ thus having that “content”.. isn’t hurting those casuals at all.

However!

I can see how making the dragons more “Epic/Challenging” via bigger map events and mob tactics that prevent spaming, could “annoy” those same casuals…

But at that point, I guess it’s up to ANet in whom they chose to cater too.

Do they want an actual “epic” battle, that’s worthy of youtube videos and livestreams?… or do they just want simple events that anyone can farm?

lol, honestly.. this is an interesting debate.
I’m looking forward ta seeing what direction ANet take.

I talk about ways ta make the Dragons “more difficult” in my topic here::
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/Combat-Dynamic-Events-what-s-the-point-if-they-re-easy-mode/page/1

If ya get a chance, check it out, drop a critique or show your support for the suggested ideas

@Zakh
Thanks for the critique and support

I made a topic in general discussion you maybe interested in::
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Rewarding-Gear-Treadmill

@Quells
I actually talk about that very same idea in my intro to this thread.

If anything.. it’s prolly the easiest “fix” the devs can implement, while they work on other “things”.

However, it is kind of a bandaid.. and combat in general would still need to be look at.

lacrimstein.5603:

This. I’ve put down GW2 to play Dark Souls, and I feel like ANet can learn a lot from that game about rewarding content. I’m not suggesting that all content needs to be hard – but there should be enemies that only the most skilled players can take down AND be rewarded appropriately with a unique weapon/armor skin.

Dark souls?…

lol honestly, I’ve never played the game ~ but have heard from a very vocal crowd, that the game is indeed “challenging”.

Perhaps to help the ANet devs out, you could create your own suggestion thread by writting about some of the things you like most about DS that “might” be compatible with some aspect of GW2?

I’d definitely give your suggestion a read, if you do

springelf.9236:

I think everything you said after the word Sticky is going to be ignored by a lot of ppl.

Yep, that’s why I put “STICKY” in the title.
Perhaps the mods will make it “official”

springelf.9236:

Some good points. Just don’t think you can suggest a fundamental change to the philosophy of the game. All I can really take away from this post is: go play LoL.

GW2 has ALWAYS been stated to be designed around fun.. and to quote a dev.
“The boss doesn’t care that I’m there, cause he respawns 10 mins later”

Realistically, this entire thread was written utilizing the philosophy stated in the Manifesto. (IE: I’m not trying to change anything).

ccrazool.2905:

Wait…. did you write [STICKY] in the title? Wassup with that?

Is the point of this thread to tell the GW2 devs how to design GW2? Because I think you may be a year or two late for that.

Please read the “DISCLAIMER”.

DISCLAIMER::

This topic is an attempt help players better understand and remove certain “misconceptions” about game development ~as well as clean up player suggestions and point people in a more productive direction when submitting ideas.

Thread Start

Ok, so I’m sure we’ve all been there.. when someone suggests an idea that ticks you off because it’s either based on a general/overused sentiment.. or seems like nothing more than Hyperbole.

A good example is when someone says..

This game isn’t rewarding!

People assume, you’re talking about the need to have a “Gear Treadmill” in the game ~ via adding “tier” loot, like you would find in your typical “raid” MMO.

This of course is nothing more than a common misconception.

Other than “Gated Content” ~ What most people are actually talking about is the lack of “Challenge”. #(whether or not, they realize it).

So what is challenge?

Simply put, it’s the main reason “Hardcore” servers are popular.. where if your character dies “once”.. it’s over! ~ time to make a new character.

What I’m talking about, is that “rush” you get when you’re loosing a fight.. not because the mob has stupid amounts of HP or because he hits like a truck, but because he requires actual skill to kill.. because he pushes your limits.. and if you “fail” there’s legitimately something valuable “on the line”.

This comes in the form of rare spawns.. raid bosses with weekly lockouts and of course, perma-death servers.

At the end of the day, it has almost nothing to do with the “+1 Great Axe of 1337 skill” the mob drops.. as you could just as easily replace it with any other cosmetic trophy (e_Peen symbol) and people would be just as happy.

Why?

Because of what the mob/dungeon/event represents.. and that it doesn’t respawn every 10 minutes or even every 4 hours.. yet with it’s defeat.. yields the promise of more “challenging content”.

So if you win, you’ll throw your arms up in the air and proclaim victory over all other living things!

Thus pushing you towards your next “challenge”.

Keep in mind, that the game still needs “normal” content.. to maintain the balance.. cause some people play games, to relax.. and don’t want to “fight for their life” every time they aggro a mob.

This my friend is WHY many people are walking away from much of the content in GW2 or just simply blowing it off entirely::
1. Dungeons?… what’s the point?.. anyone can “do” them.
2. Does that event have a chest at the end?.. no? then I’m not interested.

Simply put… GW2 is NOT challenging, thus trivializes the content into people only caring about the “easiest way” to get something.

At this point, it wouldn’t be too farfetched to say that GW2 is NOT fun.

Now, before egos get hurt and knights start brandishing their blades ~ I ask you to consider ONE THING.. keeping the above statement, in mind.

~ Why is League of Legends considered “fun” when there’s only one tournament style map, characters are limited to 4 abilities, 2 spells.. and the entire first half of each match consists of nothing more than “farming” PvE?

Quite simply.. it’s because of::
1. PvP balance via Profile levels and Elo.
2. Player Progression utilizing the IP/Runes.
3. Potential “challenge” of pwning teh nubs!.. or getting your own face melted.
4. Options in available champion pool, summoner spells and character builds.

Basically, LoL has everything GW2 is after (minus the foam-at the mouth, rabid playerbase).

Finally, I’d like you to consider these few videos for reference when submitting ideas about combat balance, dynamic events and dungeons.

Power Creep:
http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/power-creep

Game Design: How to?
http://youtu.be/8FpigqfcvlM

Game Design: for better?.. or worse?
http://youtu.be/Aip2aIt0ROM
___________________________

If you would like to see my own take on improving GW2 utilizing “challenge” ~ please feel free to check out my suggestion::
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/Combat-Dynamic-Events-what-s-the-point-if-they-re-easy-mode/page/1

Hmm, not overly fond of other topics getting fused with mine ~ but at least people have somewhat stayed on topic

@Shaaba
lol.. totally agree with ya on the “butter” thing.. though, honestly.. I wouldn’t want ANY crafting mats added to the chests ~ based off how many useless ones there are currently.

Unless ofcourse we’re talking about 40+ Omnomberries or something.

Agree with Seras ~

Perhaps until an official announcement, this’ll keep ya entertained

http://youtu.be/Sw8pcxE6U9k

mayu.8231:

Honestly I have been puzzled about these “design decisions” for the dragons/DEs as well. Take Blightghast or The Shatterer, compare it to other dragons I know from other games. As GW1 is not really comparable as all was instanced there and happens in a “contained” environment, the only other fantasy MMORPG I have played alot was WoW (let the flame fest begin!) and boy did WoW have dragons! You respected those dragons for their complicated mechanics at least.
Sure there is aggro and things were less open world in WoW, yet the boss fights are where WoW shines imho. Not everything can be reused in the DEs, but some stuff can.

Start with the way GW2 is built. No healers, no tanks, everyone should function on their own, yet DE require a group dynamic to happen. So a DE should be a group effort, but everyone needs to learn the boss tactics to survive.
I.E. A shield that reflects you 20 times attack damage on ranged when the dragon shines in bright red; or get a debuff that will cause damage when you stand still; or when the dragon is airborne only ranged does damage, on the ground only melee does;…..

I agree with an earlier post (at least for DEs). I do not want to die for someone else’s failures, but I would like to have (instanced) events for larger groups where you get punished for those.
Therefore the DE can only be changed in a way that everyone gets punished for their own failures, well, and by adding some phase-like character to the event.

That said, I agree with most things said here. What I want to add is, complexity in fights can also be achieved by adding phases to the fight where the dragon does something else than its 3 standard attacks over and over again until it dies. Zerging an enemy in 10 minutes feels not even remotely like wiping on a raid boss for 5 weeks (like I did in WoW) and then finally taking it down. I don’t think it needs to be THAT epic and rewarding, but even Diablo in D3 was more challenging (and could be done in melee without dying <gasp>).

lol, I’ve never played diablo 3.. but I understand what ya mean.

It’s funny how people automatically assume you’re talking about Gear.. when you say something isn’t “rewarding”.

Basically, like so many other people that’ve posted here ~ you’re after that “thrill” as a reward via a hard fight that’s thought out and “punishes” players for trying to mindlessly attack.

I guess the real question is, whether or not ANet shares our point of view for “challenge” (IE: Risk/Reward)?

Zakh.1568:

Agree with ya, AlexanderFaust.

Did the Shatterer a few days ago, spamfest with no skill involved whatsoever, it seemed. Would very much like to see more tactics needed for world bosses, and your suggestions seems the right kind of medicine to make it all more fun.

lol, thx

I’m curious.. based off what I’ve suggested ~ is there anything specific you’d like ta add to the event?.. or DE’s in general?

IE: any “problems” I might’ve over looked.

@Hughs

lol, had to “copy > find” a sentence from your “quote” ta see who you were actually replying too.

Might wanna add their name to the quote, so they can reply back without issue

Daboris.6730:

This can’t really be done right now. You still have people complaining dungeons are buggy, too hard, too easy, not working, etc. This essentially turns into a raid-type scenario where you have to commit x hours or you can’t do it; which means it will cater to people who have that kind of time. Once you throw in something that says "if you don’t commit at least 1.5 hours", you have a new divide whereas people who can’t commit that time feel cheated and then misquote more of ANet’s promises.

Why does it have to be in one run? Why wouldn’t you just make it cost x badges from that dungeon, or throw some RNG in the picture (have a boss drop something, for once..).

Or something like this:

"We currently added a secret item drop in each explorable path; both regular mobs and bosses have chances to drop this item. Although the chance may be slim, collect each one from each explorable path to open up a secret fourth explorable path. Do this for every dungeon, collecting the prize at the end of each 4th path, and you’ll be immensely rewarded."

Granted RNG is never anyone’s friend, but we just need something putting people into every dungeon more often, not taking them and putting them into a more elitist category.

While I never said that this idea had to be implemented NOW!?... lol.

At the same time, I also don’t subscribe to the mentality that, content must be available and "cater" to everyone.

These dungeons have a purpose.. in that they’re harder and if built utilizing the fixes I suggested in my other thread ~ they’ll also be rewarding in the sense of challenge (risk/reward).

Does this mean EVERYONE would enjoy them?.. nope!

But like I said above, these dungeons aren’t for the them, they’re for people wanting more from GW2 than PvE generally offers. ~ there’s nothing wrong with that

Though, there will still be people that are upset that they cannot do these dungeons and even others that "can" do them and see them as no challenge what so ever.

At the end of the day, you can’t please everyone.. and even if you tried, there will ALWAYS be people that will "disagree" or demand you cater to "them".

GW2 has a premise.. the devs have a goal.. if this suggestion falls in line with that, then I would hope they’ll elect to use it ~ lol, if not.. then maybe someone else suggested something "better"?

*Though.. it would be nice ta get a dev response occasionally on the suggestions forums or maybe through a dev diary, that highlights topics here on the suggestion forums and why or why not certain ideas could work within GW2.*

That would help push suggestions in the right direction and give players a stable "base" to create their suggestions around.

~ just my 2 cents ~

Hughs.6549:

Agreed with OP, but they can’t even make average acceptable bosses in the normal explo dungeons with the current system, what makes you think they can make an epic grande magnificient overfun ultra hard boss ?

The idea is good, but i don’t think ANet’s ready for that, they should fix the actual dungeons explo first, or make new ones.

In the end people will still only go for the loot and if you make it special loot that you can only get there and must have to make that special something then you force people to do that in order to reach their goal. Thus it ends up in farming.

That’s the main problem in this game, people want everything to be easy, or free. “Don’t make any requirement to get things, or to enter this place no no, don’t do that !” So guess what ? yeah, dungeons are lame, everything is easy and there’s no carrot for you anymore after 3 weeks of playing,

challenge & rewards are needed

Yes, I agree and I even created another topic addressing those issues::
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/Combat-Dynamic-Events-what-s-the-point-if-they-re-easy-mode/page/1

Feel free ta check it out

A simple use of the “SEARCH” function would reveal that many people agree with you.

IE: combat/bosses/events aren’t challenging..

I’ll point you towards the Suggestions area ~ try ta find an idea/fix you’d support and add a critique of your own

If you don’t wanna search, then I’ll point ya at my own topic on the matter::
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/Combat-Dynamic-Events-what-s-the-point-if-they-re-easy-mode/page/1

Dee Jay.2460:

It would be cool if it rewarded something you need to forge a Legendary. Maybe not a direct pre-requisite but maybe a different vital component.

Hmm… honestly, that might work.. but I’d rather something more “unique” be acquired via the dungeon.

Not to say the legendary’s aren’t “unique”.. it’s more to the point, that they just take too long to make and the dungeon should be “rewarding”.

IE: If all the content in GW2 just pointed to “one” specific goal.. then people wouldn’t have the drive to chase such a far off “carrot”.

Personally, I think that’s one of the current problems of the game.
It’s not rewarding

Zionka.6897:

Again. I wish people could understand this IS action.. Moreso than having 50 skills. Pressing a ton of buttons does not a fight make. Having 50 skills is nothing more than thinking about what buttons to push next.. That is NOT action fighting. GW2 is redefining that misconception.

uh, no offense ~ but GW2 isn’t redefining anything in terms of “combat”.

Quite honestly, TSW has slightly more advanced “telegraphed” action combat.. but just like GW2 ~ both games are no where near TRUE action combat.

IE: Both lack “weight/impact”.

I go in depth in my suggestion thread, I mentioned earlier in this topic ~ but to sum it up.. GW2 / TSW are just spamfest games ~ identical to what you would find in your standard dungeon crawler. (Diablo, Torchlight, Path of Exile).

If you want to see Action Combat that revolves around only a few spells check out Vindictus or C9.

I’ll even link ya to some vids actually..

Vindictus ~ Recorded by me back in the beta::
http://youtu.be/zdfPq7brMtU

Webzen’s C9::
http://youtu.be/7uIBgNATUu4

GW2 is good.. but a complaint I’m seeing more and more lately, is that it plays like your typical dungeon crawler.. but without the “carrot” loot system.

Which means people just rip through GW2 content and have nothing to show for it at the end of the day and don’t actually feel very “attached” to their character(s).

Again I would recommend ya check out my suggestion thread as it addresses this issue and offers up some ways for ANet to evolve beyond it’s current limitations.

Why not stop by the suggestions area?.. maybe offer your opinion on an idea that may help evolve GW2 into a more “enjoyable” game.

~ Try this one, if ya want something more “dynamic”::
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/Combat-Dynamic-Events-what-s-the-point-if-they-re-easy-mode/page/1

@Galen Grey
lol, I didn’t “give up” and this isn’t my first rodeo

I make suggestions on every game I play, for a number of reasons ~ so long as I like the dev team and/or direction of the game.

However, you cannot submit ideas to the dev team (realistically) thus you are forced to use some form of “community” middle man.

In most cases it’s the official forums.

So, I make my suggestions to the devs there ~ via pointing out critiques, ideas and fixes… then, I usually just walk away.

Long-story, short.. in no way, do I bother with the illusion that the my ideas will be “well received”.

TSW for example, currently suffers from “elitist” problems. In that they think TSW is a “smart-mans game” and that if you don’t like it, it’s not the games fault.. it’s because you’re not smart enough to appreciate it..

lol, I could go on.. but you get the point.

They don’t like things that would make the game more “popular” or player friendly.. so they attack anyone with an opinion.

It’s funny, cause I’m starting ta see the same mentality here via GW2.. IE: it’s a game designed around “fun”.. if you don’t like it, then go back to grinding with your pandas.

ah well, at the end of the day.. I’ll still go outta my way ta suggest things to improve my game of choice.. but unfortunately until Devs implement a better way to receive/view critiques and or popular ideas.. I don’t think anyones suggestions will have much impact on the “final product”.

~XF~

Only one of our pets heal out of combat ~ Fleshgolem.
The rest don’t.. and honestly, I’ve always heard it was a “bug”.

IE: Not working as intended.

Galen Grey.4709:

@AlexanderFaust

Yes I certainly agree that debates are awesome and should be how things go! we’re 100% in agreement with that. in fact my whole point is the whole knight/troll should stay out of it cause once one side accuses the other or even thinks the other side is a knight/troll the debate dies.

And I would add another thing. Most things will not come to a resolution. building on your example I am sure some people will counter that the combat is fine and that thinking otherwise comes either from lack of expertize or too much zerging and that would be fine as long as its supported by some facts and examples.

lol, I’ve run into that before.. when talking about TSW ~ which oddly enough, has VERY similar combat to GW2

Anywho.. if interested my "counter" was this::

The real problem with TSW is the combat.. yes.. we’re back to that again, but just hear me out.

Look at dungeons in todays games.. how many types are there?... countless right?

Meh, not so much.

**There are 2 main types of dungeons.. "Progression and Grind".

What’s the difference?

Progression is more commonly found in Console games via::

1. Legend of Zelda

2. Bioshock

3. God of War.

These are "Dungeons/Zones" that you’ll generally spend the majority of your time *(hours at a time) exploring them, looking for secrets and.. mainly, "backtracking" to older areas to find tools/items that let you progress further into the dungeon via story mechanics.

Then you have Grind, now please note this is NOT a negative word and only used to convey it’s general purpose ~ They are more common with MMO’s and Dungeon Crawlers via::

1. Diablo

2. World of Warcraft

3. TSW

**Even some console games like Castlevania 2, Simons Quest.

Grind Dungeons are for the most part are pretty "short" in duration.. and designed for you to run through them, spamming your spells and killing kitten.. and I mean LOTS of kitten! ~ all in an effort to collect "statistically superior loot" ~ again and again, you’ll be coming back to that dungeon to kill kitten till you get that uber piece of gear or that "quota" filled via typical NPC quest.

The real difference however, is what mechanics they facilitate in your game...

IE:

Progression = Slow paced + Story Driven.

Grind = Fast paced + Loot Driven.

Now I could spend hours talking about this, but for the sake of sanity and reading comprehension.. I’ll "try" to keep this short.

~~~~

The Secret World is designed as a progression based MMO via single player game mechs *(IE: Story driven w/atmosphere, puzzles, ect)

However, they included a combat system in the game that was designed to let players "rip through content". *(IE: They’re using spam combat, w/o limitations ~ as if we were playing your standard Diablo clone with a different camera angle).

This speeds up player progression and promotes a "run and gun" game play to both the normal quests AND dungeons.

Which again, is NOT what the secret world was being designed around. *(Story / Atmosphere / puzzles / ect).

Using this combat mechanic means.. that players don’t have to take their time.. they aren’t "counting each shot" *(unlimited ammo) and more importantly, they’re getting bored at the lack of content... why?... because Funcom used the wrong combat system which in turn, made the rest of the game feel "tacked on" or lackluster.

~~~~

TL;DR

Sure you can also point to the "immersion breaking" chat via spoilers.. or the floaty animations... but at the end of the day, can you really say that you prefer TSW with it’s "Grind-based" combat design.. *(speed/loot) ~ instead of what it should’ve had *(Progression)?

Unfortunately.. my post was only met with bias hate and people telling me that "If you don’t like TSW, then don’t play".

which ofcouse.. has nothing to do with me suggestion a combat "shift" to a more atmospheric design.

IE: I liked the game and was only offering my advice to help it improve via mechanics that worked well with one another.

Galen Grey.4709:

AlexanderFaust.4518:

*Sorry, but white knights aren’t helpful to game design.*

I’ve seen countless threads in the suggestions area.. many of which are very well thought out and would improve GW2 greatly! ~

However, no one seems to care =/

They’re far more interested in telling other people they they’re playing GW2 “wrong” and/or expecting too much from it.

lol, imagine IF the Knights put half as much effort into making legit suggestions to improving GW2 as they do trolling the forums…

But then again, IF they did that.. they would just be trolled by other “fans/knights” or be completely ignored anyways..

#the vicious cycle ~

*QFT*

Did you ever stop to consider that perhaps what you’re calling white knights are actually people who legitimately love the current design? Doesnt it make sense / should be that if they disagree with a suggest they voice their opinion?

Things suggestions are subjective! Some love a particular suggestion others think if that suggestion gets implemented it would destroy the game! And this is universal go in the forum of any game you want and you will see this !

Honestly, you’re missing the point.. and ya know what? that’s like the 7th time I’ve had to say that in the past few hours...

Fact of the matter is that "knights/fanboys/trolls" aren’t interested in making the game "better" ~ they shun anyones opinion but their own and LOVE to tell others why they’re wrong.

In this, i’ve pointed out countless times.. yet none of you seem to care.

This "attaboy" topic does nothing for the longevity of GW2 and if anything, it only hurts the community by building walls of bias towards anyone with a critique/opinion.

My suggestion is to support the game, NOT by going to the forums and trolling.. but instead, going to the suggestions forums and offering up critiques of your own to other peoples ideas as well as pointing out features you "like" but could use a buff of some sort to make better.

Regardless.. I stick to the mindset that knights are just as toxic to a game, if not more so than trolls.

*IE: You can’t move forward, stuck in reverse.*

I’m also gonna start requesting these "attaboy" topics get merged with:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/I-love-this-game-Reasons-why-Merged

Same goes for any topic I find that talks trash about GW2 without offering up suggestions:: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Bored-by-the-game-Reasons-why-Merged

~ XF ~

@Tolunart
Think you missed the point myself and many others are making. ~ Rather than repeat myself, just scroll up the page to my very first post on this topic.

Chronologist.9782:

100% world completion is already part of legendary requirement

Casual players can get named exotic skin or cultural T3 weapon skin instead of legendary

Legendary item.. hard to get, crazy concept.

EDIT: also, i don’t know why you did this as Q/A? also I forgot to put in " " " " " " " " " " " " in half of my post, sorry.

lol, the Q! is for ANet… as with all my suggestions..
I just prefer to put it in incase they ever decide ta drop in and give their “answer” on my topics.

IE: Is that suggestion something they would/could do and or be interested in

As for “legendary = hard to get”.

Personally, I don’t care for the legendary weapons.. mainly because I play an Asura.. and no matter what, our weapons would be the size of a toothpick.

So, this suggestion was in attempt to give people something ta work towards.. that may or may not be interested in getting the “current” legendary weapons.

Think of the ones I suggested as a tier set up.
ranks of difficulty to get

Sure some are easy ta get.. via 100% map completion ~ but really, when you put in a tier system, people always aim for “the best”.

Meaning, they wont be happy with the easy ta get ones.. and each “tier” players acquire, they’ll be that much more focused on getting to the next one.

lol, a LOT like leveling up huh?

Anywho, this boils down to nothing more than a carrot system.. but in such, it keeps people happy and always working towards something.

Shadow of Time.3126:

I have to say that after playing a few dungeons both story and explorable mode, they too suffer from the same problem.

Big boss fights should be more than ‘omg its over 9000’ hp mobs that can one-shot you they should require more thought put into it and some of the sugestions made above have that potential.

For that, you have my vote.

On a side note, the cannons killing players would give rise to a lot of grieving i think, so i’m against that.

Ya, the cannons are proving ta be a bit of an overzealous approach to providing more “unique” play.

lol ~ though, I did address them in the post above yours.

Bascially, the devs can add in some way to control or reign in people that wanna “grief” others.

With that said tho, I can see them not adding in the cannons.. if for no other reason than a lack of “sufficient” control methods.

From the looks of things.. people aren’t just upset at the “bugs” revolving around skill events and map completion..

but also at the “over all lack of design”

Not saying GW2 is lazy.. but perhaps they’re just trying to please too many types of people and failing on nearly every front. (jack of all, master of none).

It will be interesting to see how GW2 evolves over the next few years..
Odds are, they’ll find their core audience eventually.

For people that are still a bit unclear..

Magic find = Passive loot design
Prospecting = Active / Artificial Difficulty via Class balance (Risk / Reward).

Basically, Magic find is generally a trivial stat people just use food/cash shop purchases to buff on occasion. ~ While Prospecting is an actual core mechanic that facilitates dungeon difficulty and mob encounters.

Ok, I’m curious..

Over the past few years, I’ve come across many games that utilized a “Drop Stat”. ~ Yet just like GW2, most of those games never actually explained HOW those stats actually affected drops.

So players remain in the dark.. hypothesizing how things “could” work. ~ Usually until an organized group starts data-mining the game.

Regardless, many of those systems are broken down into 2 types.

% Bonus (Magic Find) Vs. Gated (Prospecting).

So what are these systems and how do they work?

% Bonus is setup so mob drop rates never actually change.. thus your “% bonus” only comes into play WHEN a mob drops something.

IE: It increases the % you’ll get something better from the mob’s loot table.

Gated locks off rarity/specific drops by having a specific amount of “Prospecting” required to be on your character or the group in total, to even have a chance at those items dropping.

IE: If the celestial dagger has a “Prospecting” requirement of 300 ~ and you only have 280, then the dagger will not ever drop for you, regardless how many times you kill the mob that “drops” it.

Keep in mind that both of these types of drop mechanics can be set up to affect:
1. Chests
2. The Mystic Forge
3. Map Awards
4. Mob Bags

They can also have pre-set’s that your “stats” are utilized.
IE: Does your magicfind/prospecting count when the chest is spawned?.. or when you actually open it?

Would only affect those players that have a full gear set that focuses on maximizing your “Drop Stat” ~ which you don’t equip till after you’ve killed a boss, before you open the chest.

Furthermore, does your group come into account aswell?.. IE: anyone attacking the mob in question.

Does the mob “count” everyones “stats” towards the end drop table?..

Anywho!?

Looking at the above… which do you prefer and which one would it be awesome to find out that GW2 actually utilizes??

% Bonus (Magic Find) Vs. Gated (Prospecting).

#Not a serious topic, just something fun to think about

Also something to keep in mind ~ most games that use the “gate” system also have “looting” classes via Theif, Enutrof, ect..

It’s very slim GW2 will be “patched” to change my mind about it.

I’ll quote a post I made on another topic if you’re curious::

FUN = Subjective.

I find fun in systems that are “rewarding”.. not just in the sense of gear.. but in challenge and re-playability.

IE: I can sit for hours playing League of Legends..

With that said however, I’ve stopped playing GW2 for over a week ago.. and I’m not feeling the “urge” to start it up again.

It took me a vacation and 2 weeks of backed up work before I felt that way about League of Legends (I don’t play anymore, but had to fight the “urge” to say “screw my work!.. I’m gonna play!”).

For me, it comes down to the lack of challenge in GW2 as well as never feeling like my presence in the world actually matters.

IE: Events scale in HP/DMG but not tactics.. thus it’s just a spamfest ~ which gets boring after just a few of them.

I’ve made several topics on fixing this.. you can find the big one here::
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/Combat-Dynamic-Events-what-s-the-point-if-they-re-easy-mode/page/1

As it stands.. I’ve got two lv80 Characters ~ a Necro and an Elementalist.
Along with 6 professions at lv400 ~

Yet, neither of my characters have 100% map completion nor have progressed beyond lv26 in their personal stories.

Do I care?… nope!

And again, this is coming from someone that LOVES to play repetitive games like League of Legends and Pokemon (gotta catch’em all).

On my Xbox I even hunt down every achievement I can find.. spending upwards of 200 hours on Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion.

But…. I just can’t get into GW2. =/

Why?.. cause it’s just not “fun” to me.. due to not only “progression” but also combat, world events and content in general.

Does that mean I don’t like GW2?.. nope!

It just means, I don’t find it “fun”.

Guess that’s the perk of B2P ~ can always come back.. but personally, if I left in the first place without completing all the content it currently has.. why should I care if more of the same is added?

~ Just my 2 cents ~

As you can see.. my complaints go beyond “bugs” or typical “fixes” a patch could address.

IE: The “Core” mechanics facilitated by the shotty combat aren’t likely ta get “patched” ~ as they’re CORE mechanics and the rest of the game is built around them.

I’ll still recommend my friends ta play GW2.. but so far, the vast majority of them have already quit for the same reasons I mentioned above.

Currently, many of us are playing Torch Light 2 together and will prolly stick with it for a while, prolly moving on to other console games and eventually either FFXIV 2.0 or Wildstar ~ which ever one comes out first.

I’ll prolly lurk around these forums for awhile tho, in the hopes that perhaps I could be proven wrong and the game does evolve beyond it’s current limitations.

Anywho,
Good luck to those that choose to stay in GW2

FUN = Subjective.

I find fun in systems that are “rewarding”.. not just in the sense of gear.. but in challenge and re-playability.

IE: I can sit for hours playing League of Legends..

With that said however, I’ve stopped playing GW2 for over a week ago.. and I’m not feeling the “urge” to start it up again.

It took me a vacation and 2 weeks of backed up work before I felt that way about League of Legends (I don’t play anymore, but had to fight the “urge” to say “screw my work!.. I’m gonna play!”).

For me, it comes down to the lack of challenge in GW2 as well as never feeling like my presence in the world actually matters.

IE: Events scale in HP/DMG but not tactics.. thus it’s just a spamfest ~ which gets boring after just a few of them.

I’ve made several topics on fixing this.. you can find the big one here::
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/Combat-Dynamic-Events-what-s-the-point-if-they-re-easy-mode/page/1

As it stands.. I’ve got two lv80 Characters ~ a Necro and an Elementalist.
Along with 6 professions at lv400 ~

Yet, neither of my characters have 100% map completion nor have progressed beyond lv26 in their personal stories.

Do I care?… nope!

And again, this is coming from someone that LOVES to play repetitive games like League of Legends and Pokemon (gotta catch’em all).

On my Xbox I even hunt down every achievement I can find.. spending upwards of 200 hours on Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion.

But…. I just can’t get into GW2. =/

Why?.. cause it’s just not “fun” to me.. due to not only “progression” but also combat, world events and content in general.

Does that mean I don’t like GW2?.. nope!

It just means, I don’t find it “fun”.

Guess that’s the perk of B2P ~ can always come back.. but personally, if I left in the first place without completing all the content it currently has.. why should I care if more of the same is added?

~ Just my 2 cents ~

@Latorn & Velg
Hmm, point taken.

Though, ANet could put in antigreif “fail-safes” to avoid the problem
#Much like the “burnout” timer mentioned earlier in the discussion

Curious..

So far the idea is getting a lot of support, but what would you think if dungeons had “Mystic Forges” in them as well.. and each one was better at producing certain things than others?

Like if you wanted to make a “dye pack chest” ~ but wanted more “ghostly” colors, thus would use the mystic forge in AC..

Or if you wanted more “Fiery” (red) colors, so you would use the forge in the “Legions” dungeon. *(forgot it’s name).

good idea?… bad idea?