Guild Wars 2

@Dirame, guess I’m nobody then :/ I rather liked Prophecies … but I’m glad there is somebody that shares this feeling, which I might add isn’t prohibiting me from having fun in the game… it’s just that some of the fun I had in GW1 I am no longer having…

Lastly for those that have a hard time seeing how ‘choice skills on weapons’ could work, and how it could enable interesting build options, as well as provide more ‘counter’ play; and even add something that I personally miss, the ability to customize your character…

Ranger Axe
1. Ricochet
2. Winters Bite (freeze) / Summer Blaze (fire) / Snake Bite or Autumn Rot (poison)
3. Split Blade.

4. ‘Pull’ + damage / Loose Boon (which could be stabo) + Knock Down / Push Back + Cripple;
5. Whirling Defences.

Warhorn
4. Call o.t Wild (Gain 2 Might, 1 Fury) / ‘Timber Call’ (Gain Protection + Swiftness) / Call of Attention (Gain Aegis and Stability)
5. Hunters Call (Summon Hawks (damage))

Dagger
4. Crippling Talon (throw bleed & cripple), Freezing Talon (throw & Freeze), Tormenting Talon (throw and Torment)
5. Stalker Strike (stab, poison & evade)

Sword
1. Slash+Kick+Pounce
2. Serpent’s Strike (evasion + poison) / Crane’s Strike (block ‘stance’ for 1/2 sec (which is cast time for) damage, if no block then also bleed.) / Crab’s Strike (gain protection, apply vulnerability)
3. Hornet Sting+Monarch’s leap

Torch
4. Scorche Armour (apply torment & vulnerability), Blow Smoke (blind foes in cone, apply confusion), Blow Flame (damage foes in cone).
5. Throw Torch/Bonfire (throw torch to foe and set area on fire, burn foes in it)

Long Bow
1. Long range shot
2. Hunters Shot (stealth, pet swiftness) / Guards shot (Protection, pet Fury) / Archers Shot (Aegis & Stability, pet Regeneration).
3. Rapid Fire
4. Point Black Shot (push back) / Weighed Down Arrow (Knock Down + Daze) / Roped Arrow (Pull foe)
5. Barrage

Short Bow
1. Crossfire (fire arrow, bleed side/back)
2. Poison Volley (5 poison arrows) / Toxic Volley (5 confusing arrows) / Venomous Volley (5 vulnerable arrows).
3. Quick Shot (evade, gain swiftness)
4. Crippling Shot (cripple, pet bleeding) / Knee Shot (torment, pet vulnerability) / Debilitating shot (weakness, pet ‘micro’ fear)
5. Concussion Shot (daze, stun side/back)

Great Sword
1. Slash+Slice+Power Stab.
2. Bear ‘Maul’ (force of bear) / Devourer ‘Lash’ (force of devourer) / Minotaur ‘Charge’ (force of the Minotaur)
3. Swoop (Run + Leap, damage all)
4. Counter attack + Crippling Throw (block, on block cone push + throw to cripple 1) / Counter blow + Blinding Kick stab your sword in the ground and kick it (block, on block knockdown + cone blind) / Counter Bash + Chilling swipe (block, on block Daze + cone chill)
5. Hilt Bash (Damage and Roll back, Stun if behind and roll back, + pet +50% dam on next)

Guess you will see that something similar could be done with the underwater skills … I only made minor changes to the setup of the weapons, left most skills in tact, and only added similar skills to be chosen from (instead of doing something completely different on a choice) so that the ‘feel’ of the weapon will remain largely the same, yet for the play style choices do matter, as well as for customization and synergy.

There are no ‘bad’ choices again, in this setup, which makes it pretty noob proof, if you’d ask me, the order of unlocking, might warrant a slightly different order from how I presented them, as some are easier than others, while presenting slightly more advanced options. No drawbacks here though, except for the fact that if you choose one skill, you can’t have another … recharges/cast time/‘energy costs’ could differ a bit from the options though, just to shave them a lil bit more in line with each other.

More options (in skills) and Trade-off in specs, could do a lot to revitalize the combat in GW2, while at the same time KEEP the noob toob options in there for new players, and those that just want a base functionality for PvE content.

Personally I also wouldn’t mind seeing Energy make a return, and if you check some utility skills they specifically mention 0-energy, almost as if GW2 has an energy system build in, but it is simply set to 0 for every skill ?! Why would I want it returned, simply for balance purposes and as a short term resource, like it was mentioned earlier in this thread, it offers a whole skill based mechanic on it’s own, that is easy to understand, and the utilisation of the mechanic increases as your skill level increases, mainly it is relatively forgiving for low skill players (with the whole everybody heals, the res system, and easy and close proximity waypoints as well as 0 cost armour repairs) and with how mass PvE works in this game, if a few run out for a short while, nothing is lost; for the mediocre player is offers a side challenge, where more skill full play and rotations offer a better output; and at the highest level of play efficiency is the goal, while at the same time it offers a limit to what is possible (aka. a balance ceiling). And speaking of balancing, it also offers a 4th way to scale skills (beyond Dam, CT, RC) … Why ‘on Tyria’ would you throw out such a system? Heck, for PvE and WvW you might even be able to introduce a food buff to energy regen, as it competes directly with damage food buffs! And in a system like this energy = damage = energy, so any buff to damage is a buff to energy, hence it wouldn’t mind.

One other thing, mainly at MonMalthias, I fear that it is impossible to create a ‘perfect imbalanced’ game with GW2. Even with the skill additions I mentioned it’s more than likely not enough to attain this. And I fear that trying to go for a perfect imbalance will just lead to a shallow rock/paper/scissors version, which you can already see in some parts of the game now. And people talking about ‘meeting your hard counter’ when a condi thief comes across a anti-condi Necro f/e. It’s no fun, except for the one that is obvious to win… … so really, it isn’t fun at all … and there is a high chance that hot join PvP will end up like the random arenas, where people just left a fight after going:
My team: no monk -> leave, if monk, check ‘amount of rocks, papers, scissors’ -> see opponent, if monk -> check amount of rocks, papers, scissors’ -> check them off, if we loose we loose, might as well leave now… bye! (well the bye would either be silent or come with a ‘cY4s L8rz Nubz’).

Personally, I would be more interested in giving more professions more options, to being almost equal in options, yet, at the same time limit the amount of options that can be taken at the same time. Aka. trade offs. This would still mean that you might run into a counter to your play, but it might not be ‘hard’, and you would just have to fight through it. Or adopt, which I noticed at some times in random arena, where besides a hard-meta there was also a ‘roling meta’ during the evening, as players adapted to changes back and forth.

So a (I would guess calling it) ‘soft’ perfect imbalance, is more interesting and likely easier to achieve, then a ‘hard’ perfect imbalance. Which can turn out into a ‘rock/paper/scissors’ play out, and fights that are simply not to be fought, instead of a game where every fight is possible, just some are a tad harder than others. And while in a ‘soft’ perfect imbalance, it is possible to meet your entire hard counter, if it becomes the meta, it is easier dealt with then a hard-counter setup, where ‘you know’, L2P, or You ‘just’ met your hard counter, deal with it..

But as time progresses I do think that, seeing it is combat what you do most in the game, not having any true options or interesting mechanics/play styles, will bore me at some point (together with the increasing need to farm farm farm, not just because it is still way to rewarding, seeing the whole 300g cmdr-tag colour discussions (after 2y im at my highest gold ever, 92g ! — but also because end game content (most noticeably ascended crafting and this new backpack, require it. — but anyways… ).

I realize the need for a noob toob, and that the game should come with understandable mechanics (f/e Ice creatures being invulnerable to freeze, or fire creatures to burning), but that doesn’t mean that it should be ‘the only’ way! Can you imagine a COD where the unlocks are just more noob toobs. Though arguably, I haven’t played FPS’s for years, so maybe that is exactly what they turned into (Friendly fire, ever played with that? man, those were the days!)…

An interesting game has an easy entry level, and gets progressively harder and more interesting with marginal to very limited more power or options, without the entry level being entirely unviable for most of the main content. (in this case f/e how the New Mordrem are a lot harder than anything in the game, and how these are put into the story (the wolf challenge being in the actual story line, and the choice to put the ‘Shadow o/t Dragon’ in it as well) are just bad game design! As they break the social contract that the rest of the game seems to convey to you. — but that’s another story I guess…)

Personally I think this game should increase the amount of utility skills by at least 4 – 2x catagories, or simply reduce the amount to 3 skills per category and introduce 3x 3 more skills. It should also come with 2 more ‘choice’ skills on weapons, for the slots 2 & 4; so that there are 3 skills to choose from in those slots. So that there are more choices to be had, in both weapons skills, and utility skills. (some new weapons wouldn’t hurt either; f/e fighting staff for thief, nature magic for ranger)

Then more then likely the whole Trait system would need to be reworked, to give 7 points to slot BUT, as you slot higher into a trait tree the earlier levels blank out. This gives the option to put ‘entry level’ traits in the lower levels, meaning as you level up the obvious choices are a 5x lvl1 slot setup. Then as you progress beyond that, you can still keep 3x at the lower levels, and 2 medium, for a seasoned yet average player. The last level with a maxed setting of 2x lvl3 and 1x lvl1. Would give more elaborate options to the seasoned specialist. With the following overall setup (or something similar):
lvl1 traits – mediocre increase base functionality
lvl2 traits – (mediocre+low) increase of base functionality, or mediocre new options.
lvl3 traits – (mediocre+low) increase in lvl2 options or entirely new options.

Sure it would mean you would only have 6 traits at the highest level (being the auto given trait for the levels, and 3 choices) but these would really be defining your build. The trait off is obvious, you have access to the highest level of different stuff, than the average 3x 1lvl 2x 2lvl, stuff, but that level could be the ‘balance’ level of most of the PvE game play. Going deeper to lvl3 would give you some advantages in certain area’s, but at the same time you loose 4 of the ‘noob toob’ options in lvl1 of the trait system.

Tnx Harper for that elaborate formulation of my objective analysis of GW2, this gives me the opportunity to formulate a ;tldr for you (based upon how I view GW2 combat when i have a morning grudge):

GW2 combat system is about as interesting as whack a mole with two alternating moles linked together (aka. whack one the other comes up), it has counter play on the level of rock/paper/scissors, with an imbalance to rock beating everything. And the reward system is about as straight forward as ‘draw a string’. (sorry I could not find a traveling fun park equivalent to ‘rock/paper/scissors’).

Actually, and this is something I can still get worked up about, the statement that GW2 wasn’t: ‘Swing your sword, Swing it again’; is so the opposite that I can’t be reminded of that statement without popping a vane in my forehead.

GW1 was a good game with a decent to mediocre story, with period gfx, and no Z axis. GW2 is a good LOOKING game, with a decent to mediocre story, with stunning GFX and an Z axis. (hope you notice how gameplay isn’t even in the GW2 line-up)

Add. Though I will say that GW1 wasn’t without it’s balance problems, f/e Insidious Parasite as a one skill option against anything melee (mainly Sins). And ohboy, all the ‘balance’ horror we went through in GW1. The gameplay could be much more interesting though (when you got to the PvP), although PvE was reduced to the trinity ‘whack a mole’ standard of the time, with a few locations where other strategies prevailed. Still though, within a profession and role there were still a couple viable variants…

Add2. and I will say that the combo skill mechanics are still interesting and fresh! Guess GW2 combat ‘has that’…

There, glad I got that off my chest… I couldn’t have done it without you Harper! As my objective non grudged mind sees things exactly as you do. Still though, I am only human and do come with emotions (at times).

To then comment on this, and where I think the OP and MonMalthias are right, is that GW2 offer no options beyond ‘noob toob’ level of play. Seeing you brought up FPS (COD). When I first analysed the professions, it was blatantly clear to me that it were just a couple of builds cut up and put together in an illusion of choice model. When it turned out that the game itself had this ‘rock’ imbalance in it’s counterplay, and worked like the linked together moles, only a few builds turned to actually viable. (any uber-combo’s were quickly disposed off.) I gave up early on, and just went with what I liked, which is just fine to work through PvE content (like just about anything).

side note. I still think that Anet threw out the baby with the bath water, when they made this choice. GW2 is pretty much everything GW1 wasn’t, except for the decent to mediocre story (depending on your p.o.v).

What about this explanation of the vision:
- Anet has had enough of Tyria for now, they created a beautiful forest (land) but it met mostly cold and harsh response. (this is the beginning with the pale tree going to a cold and harsh winter scene.)
- So they decided to just blow things up (the rays of light – LA was just the start), and from that destruction take the good things (the glowing ‘heart’ and whole new cities rising), and take that into and beyond the Crystal Desert.
- Then to make sure the community doesn’t spread out like it did in GW1, with the release of a whole new continent. They will have Mordremoth consume the whole of Tyria, everything in front (or ‘before’ as in time) the Crystal Desert Episode will be engulfed in Mordremoth’s vines…
- We will not be victorious over Mordremoth when we enter that last area of land, instead we will trigger the full rage of him. We will be engulfed and driven back, Rata Sum will fall, The Grove will fall, Devinities reach will fall, The ruins of Lions arch will fall, The order head quarters will fall, Hoelbrak will fall, The Black Citadel will fall, And finally we will Enter the Crystal Desert Through Ebon Hawk, And it too will fall…

Players can take their racial characters with them and play the new Elona Chapter, but apart from a few races, no new ones can be made. This is most noticeable for the Sylvari and Possibly the Norn, instead there will be (a) new Race(s) introduced. And Tyria will be nothing more than ‘ancient history’, eaten up by Mordremoth. And we will be playing a New Chapter in which Anet can take all the lessons learned and implement them in a New part of the game…

The end of Tyria, onwards into the land of the Golden Sun…

@OP, I play A/Wh & A/A pretty much since day one, zerker oriented gear (had to put some ‘defence’ in there as well), with Healing Spring, Fire Trap, Spike Trap, Lightning Reflexes. I wouldn’t want it any other way realy, well it be nice if I could get rid of the pet at times :/ … Both the AA, as well as Split and ‘Whirling In Their FACE!’, and the birds give a lot of Proc chances. The Path of Scars Pull works wonders with traps, ‘get in here and die!’ plox! … also gives great opportunity to Blast that fire field for extra might! Or blast that Healing Spring for Healing.

This is a great (decent survival) set for any Open World small/medium/large group content, as well as solo play (although survivability drops a tad, as with a bouncing weapon and zerg gear you can get yourself ‘in’ over your head, traps & whirl are your friends though ^^). You can do a reasonable amount of damage, while still contributing to the overall efforts with buffs (might+ , fury and swiftness) as well as healing. Also, I play as a Sylvari, where take root (5 turrets) as well as taking a Hyena pet (Amoeba qualities), gives the advantage to create 6 extra targets in a whim (while being invulnerable for a short period). This is exceptionally good in places where (you or) your group face the opportunity to be overrun by adds, not being a target for a short while can be as good as a heal

Only problem I found, especially with the new content, is retaliation on small critters. It seems every thing has it these days, and bouncing AA all of a sudden doesn’t look that great (sure your target doesn’t have retal, but how about those two in the back)…

As far as dungeons go, I wouldn’t know, I hardly do them, though I will say that a lot of bosses (at least in open world) come with adds, so there is bound to be a bounce in dungeons too. The possibility of defence and group support is moderate (compared to say ele, engi), but where it does it does pack the things most needed (might+, fury, swiftness & healing -> which all help the zerker meta), and when playing as a sylvari you can have the added bonus of 5 turrets/decoys and invul. while you wait for that recharge of your healing spring.

The set covers both melee to medium range, which can give a very nice pro-active play style. I tend to set up traps immediately, since so many foes come for you, yet the recharge (traited) tends to be short enough to also ‘dodge in’-‘place traps in their face’-‘blast fire’-‘whirl their faces’-‘lightning refex out’. Although that last bit is only needed on Elites & Champs, likely anything else is already dead when your whirl ends

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fNUQRBHhd+UJjKKXZ7KcZB9cEUIUbauCDL7BIAqAf9QJjIK-TxDBABbpcoLlEXpEphHAQvLMsgJCFMBF0+AAcQAwR9nW0IYmSIKOBApoHYClgBAQAY6m8kVZA-e

that’s my exact build, and yes, I lack far behind on my crafting and thus ascended gear and I am working on stuff to get some upgrades (there are more characters than 1 to spec out though), I could also likely improve a bit by further specializing. Though on the other hand, since i’m mostly playing story or open world PvE, having a bit of a diverse setup helps to be a tad more rounded. Any constructive advice is welcome

anyways, great set great fun

edit: one last thing, if you like frost fang, and you choose to make a Sylvari, please make sure you set your glow to something that goes with frost fang. I set mine to red, and have a green/red character, which doesn’t go to well with Frosty. My friend set it to white glow and has a more opaque leaf color, which matches a lot better… in case you care for matching colours that is

@Atherakhia, the thing is though, giving the highest range weapon a high evasion, is basically OP to begin with, because then nobody can touch it, and the long range, high evade always wins…

I would also like to know against which kind of professions you think it needs higher evade/escape power. Because my suspicion is that it’s not the ranger lacking kite abilities, but there are a couple of professions that have to easy an access to gap-closers/makers, with to big a range on them, so that there is hardly any time to use which little there is to do something about it…

The idea that there has to be an entry level for new players is somewhat true, but this entry level setup should have a higher survivability and low success, not 0 success, but low! A player should have the idea that (s)he can actually survive ‘this’ if they were to put in more effort and learn, and the skills should give the player the option to at least make a dent, and likely kill in a 2v1 situation, or against a newer player on an other profession.

The comparison here can be made with the ‘Noob Toob’ from (was it modern warfare?) an FPS game (first person shooter), as the first unlock on the base weapon. It got a lot of complaints due to it’s splash (high to moderate to low – on – direct to close to proximity) damage on a moderate recharge. This meant that a noob could chuck these things in a choke point, or in the general direction of gun fire, and be able to get a kill off (either by direct hit, or by hitting an already low on HP player). As you increased your unlocks better options and strategies unlocked for the player … And this is all fine and dandy, the problem comes when such an option remains the best option, and no other/better strategies unlock, or such an option becomes part of a cheesy ‘exploit’ like fighting technique…

And I feel like the warrior might be somewhat suffering from this (given that the latest patch might change some things a bit – although personally I have my doubts). It seems to come with ‘noob’ protection as a base quality, and progresses to unlock more damage, but the ‘noob’ protection doesn’t diminish as the power increases, and the power progresses to pretty much the highest in the game… That IS a problem, because now you have moderate to high skilled players ‘basically exploiting’ a profession due to the lack of weaknesses at the higher skill sealing. And there are no ‘unlock’ options for other players that move on beyond the warrior, to give more interesting and more powerful strategies to them at a ‘higher risk’…

Now to be fair, the Warrior should be a viable profession at the higher skill levels, there is no reason to deem one whole profession as a ‘Noob Toob’. Actually all professions should more then likely have a ‘Noob Toob’ equivalent. But as players progress the options and power should increase, at the expense of loosing the ‘Noob Toob’ setup.

@Zardul, nah, the Asura to the Mursaat, where likely more like the Skritt are to any other technological race now. As you can see their sharp teeth, they more then likely scavenged for subterranean insects in the Mursaat days. And even when they first came to the surface on Tyria (at the EotN expansion) most of their guards held ‘stone’ weapons.

Their technological advances are all from the last 300 years, and in GW1 most of that was actually just bloating about technology that wasn’t even theirs to begin with… A lot of stuff they did (and still does) blew up in their faces. They were just ‘lucky’ in a sense that they lived amongst the highest evolved races on Tyria (either Seer or Mursaat), and happily claimed their inventions as their own, which they merely learned to disassemble and reassemble.

So, no, they were not likely to be enslaved by them, actually the temper of the Asura makes it more then clear they were more likely being a nuisance to anything they did. Likely breaking stuff for shinny’s, or demolishing stuff they were to see as a thread…

If I were to guess I would ‘somewhat jokingly’ say they are more then likely seeing a psychologist or shrink, both alone and in group sessions, to be able to deal with all the kitten they have to deal with on this forum related to anything they do or do not do…

Having said that I do somewhat agree with the OP in regards to the number balancing, it shouldn’t be to much work to change the Warrior trait that gives 7% of power to vitality back to 5% now that the warrior has gotten more ways to deal with conditions f/e… or even start with 6% and see how that works out. In order to balance warrior zerk builds with a proper challenge/reward setting, actually this sort of shows that the list provided isn’t been used at all, as this trait should have been modified the moment Warriors got more access to condition clear… ‘how do changes effect the balance over all’.

I do not agree with the viewpoint of balance and meta that some propose though, balance means that profession/skills selection doesn’t really matter anymore, balance (in the true sense) has been achieved, and it now comes down to player skill and execution, to determine a winner. OR, but that only works for games (like f/e GW1) with a lot of choices and skills, where there are numerous right answers to the same questions and selections come with the consequence of not picking another solution. In which case there isn’t necessarily ‘balance’ as in ‘equilibrium’ but balance to a point where you can always find a way to adept and find another answer.

Seeing GW2 is NOT a game with an extensive list of answers, it can not be a game with a ‘rolling meta’, seeing playing an advanced version of Rock, Paper, Scissors has nothing to do with player skill & execution. It thus should be a game with a ‘Balance = Equilibrium’ mind set. Which also happens to be a mind set where pretty much all the builds (that make any bit of sense) are viable builds… Now b4 I get all the anti-socialists and anti-communists on my back, let me state that ‘Equilibrium =/= Equality’ for as far as the professions are concerned, on the other hand, to have a game where it is player skill and not ‘rock, paper, scissors’ that determines a winner, and the amount of skills are fairly limited, there has to be a large amount of similarity between the professions; still though, there should be more then enough room to create distinctly different solutions to the same ‘problems’.

f/e:
Amount of Armour: scaling
Amount of Health point: scaling
do direct damage: range at which, amount of which, speed of which, source, etc…
do conditions: kind of condition, how condition works (intensity, duration).
mitigate damage: by healing, by blocking, by repelling, by evasion, duration, recharge…
deal with conditions: which conditions, how often, etc.
Pro/Anti-Boons: which boons, how to applicate/remove, which (intensity, duration)
Mobility: ease of Access, range, recharge

Well you get the point, more then enough ways to differ/be distinct and still be ‘balanced’ where balance is some sort of Equilibrium. And reaching this is easiest by making frequent small (medium when difference is considered large) changes, seeing ‘you’ can always go back by a smaller bit the next time, if you over shot a little bit.

Karolis.4261:

Not to be rude, but if you have issues flipping camps with thief (or any other class), you should take a look at your general gaming skills, cause … they suck.

How can I even take that as ‘not rude’, you may want to check your general people or comprehensional use of language skills there…

Dahkeus.8243:

If you want to solo cap a camp, equip Sword/Pistol, then line of sight all the enemies around a corner. After that, just drop a blind field and auto-attack. Dancing Daggers works pretty well if you can’t line of sight everyone.

Ah, that might be it then, cuz I use neither D/D nor S/P, nor do I generally bunch AI in corners, as that sort off feels like ‘abusing a feature’ in the game. Seeing 2 people is generally enough to pull off a capture I’m not to worried though, but it’s nice to know how I could do it, or even how others pull it off.

Guess then on that bit I was proven to be wrong, nothing ‘wrong’ with that

Warlord of Chaos.7845:

@arghore if the assassin had that on him, why didn’t he get that cleansed lol. Only terrible assassins would die to that. My blackout Mesmer on the other hand is a different story

I don’t think it was ‘the meta’ for a Sin build at the time. Better Sin’s usually used an interrupt to prevent casting Parasite, but it did mean one had to sacrifice another skill to do so, and it relied heavily on landing it. Also, Necro’s were not really in the meta at all at the time (speaking random arena’s here btw). I think overall I only ever saw 2 other Necro’s run a similar build to mine… (though, the best counter I ever saw was slotting an elemental ‘tang’ or ‘blade’, as IP ran off of physical damage, I hardly ever saw that though. ‘luckely’ -> apparently this skill changed as it now says ‘attack’.)

Thing was that the build was almost entirely defensive, and most the damage came from stripping conditions from allies and send them to specific foes. This meant you had to have smart monks, that ran a build that didn’t have high condition clear. While taking out the non observant Sin with Parasite was okish, the most satisfying was taking out condi rangers. Their build ran off of a monk condi clear skill, that was also the only ‘spell’ on their deck, the build I ran had the Mesmer skill (dunno name – apparently Arcane Thievery) that copied a random spell from foe and disable it on their bar for X sec. So what happened was they stack a ton of conditions on me, I would target, steal their ’condi clear monk spell (as that was the only spell on their bar), and send back all the conditions, rinse and repeat until Ranger was dead, and yes it did happen that I was busy doing that while a Sin basically killed himself on me with Parasite.

On the other hand, seeing Mesmers were still very much part of the meta, if there was a curses dealing Monk on the other team, I was basically reduced to wanding :P … the build also didn’t do to well against interruption. Not so much that everything was easily interrupted, but due to there being no conditions around.

build (as I can’t find it on PvX) :
1. Defile Defences: http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Defile_Defenses + wanding; only way to really do any damage in the build :o
2. Rip Enchantment: http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Rip_Enchantment
3. Arcane Thievery: http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Arcane_Thievery
4. Foul Feast: http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Foul_Feast
5. Plague Signet: http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Plague_Signet
6. Insidious Parasite: http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Insidious_Parasite
7. Hexer’s Vigor: http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Hexer%27s_Vigor
8. Resurrection Signet

alt: Web of Disruption: http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Web_of_Disruption , usually for Rip Enchantments, Defile defences or Arcane Thievery. It wasn’t uncommon to see certain builds change during an evening of play, f/e the rangers did have a condi-clear in the ranger skills, so if they swap out the Monk one, I would have to respond with an interrupt…

I choose for Plague signet over Plague sending, due to being in RA, no 10% HP cost, and really, when do you ever find players bunched up in RA? :P

Ok sorry for this small intermezzo, where I just had to answer to this question… please do continue on topic … as this is all ancient history by now…

babazhook.6805:

>>>3a. For WvW Roaming solo, the thief only shines when taking on the lost straglers, or for taking down sentries, capping a BL-point. There are few thieves that I see take a camp on their own, and I hardly ever succeed. For WvW-small group Roaming, the thief is excellent (esp. with a Mesmer), you can use the other person as a distraction (hence mesmers work so well) and go after each other small group member 1 by 1.

I do not understand this statement at all. I took out camps solo all the time in WvW as a thief. I play every profession and my thief does it just about the fastest.

This either a condition build or a power build. I can not recall the last time I failed to flip a camp as a thief unless it when I was hit by some of the enemy players coming in to defend the same.

Then cuddo’s to you, in general when I try, the whole pack in the camp comes for me and I’m overwhelmed basically, sure going invis helps to get away, but not in order to take it… then again, I am not a thief pro, so if you say so I take your word for it. But I am not sure when the last time was that you did this, but maybe things have been nerfed?

Walker.3056:

Thief has advamtage over mesmer in pvp. Doesnt mean mesmers are not viable or bad class, Thief is just its natural counter.

Funny way of looking at this, the way I look at this is… It means your are playing a game as exciting as a game of ‘rock, paper, scissors’ … the game is either broken, or just badly designed.

Now yes, I do believe in counter play (for as far as certain skills go: aka, a block to counter a strike (at the base level)), and you may occasionally run into an entire counter build to your build (it should be rare though). But if it’s at the level where one class will always beat another class (no matter the build), then really, that last class is in dire need of buffs! given the other is not OP… even more so if it comes down to one skill, somewhat like Insidious Parasite on Necro and Assassins in GW1, I dunno, I had great fun as a Necro, but I doubt that can be considered ‘great counter play’, if all you have to do is cast that one skill on time… to render an entire profession useless, or better yet, get itself killed… by Grenth I miss curses

Arcades.4689:

You could have just left utilities empty if you wanted to show the “inconvenient truth”.

If you’re a condi thief that can’t kite a warrior then yes, you really don’t know kittens.
If you don’t know why warrior have higher base stats than other classes, then yes, you don’t know kittens.

I took the link that was posted earlier in this thread and then started working on it, I was first trying to build something to deal specifically with thieves, but as I was looking around the warrior, it was like a thief walking through a jewelry shop… so at some point I just said sod it, i’ll throw the signets up here, then do the thief … as it was taking to long already…

And I dunno, but I would invite you to come into WvW and actually ‘kite’ anything, except for some very occasional 1v1’s, also why kite? I can just go invis. right?

But anyways, yes I don’t know much about warrior, or sPvP tactics and play. I’m not even a thief expert… But I do have a nose for ‘kitten litter’ and the smell of it tends to tickle me in a way I just can’t refuse… it’s also why I hardly ever come here, opinions here are seldom backed with fact, and while I’m open for fair and friendly debate. When it comes to people’s precious professions that is hardly ever the case, even more so when it deals with nerfing said profession…

Which btw. I would not like to see for any profession, what I would like to see is objective and pro-active balancing. If the warrior is the base level of where Anet thinks it is at, then why are so many professions way behind in power level… why is it that the warrior can do so many things so effortless where other profession need to twist an arm and a leg. That’s also what I meant with the adrenalin being a ‘bug fix’, it’s was a straight up power buff with no draw-backs, now it has some, great it’s fixed, no need to add all the other buffs to a profession that’s already got everything… but I guess that last bit is just my opinion based upon ‘what the heck do I know’…

Yeah I know why the warrior has higher base stats, or atleast I know what I would like to point out as a reason based upon how this conversation is going, but I’m not here to get into a fight. I’m here to answer some of your responses to me to show that I’m more then willing to have a reasonable conversation, if that is possible. So please, fill in the traits and skills, chances are high that I will actually learn something … obviously I will sniff it out for any kitten litter in there, but if we can both agree on the builds, then we can perhaps compare them more objectively and see how ‘fair’ that line up is.

Yeah largely depends if you want it on all characters and with the stats it comes with (if you cannot choose the actual stats) do remember this is an ascended back piece! so if you don’t have access to those on other characters, and you can pick the stats you like on it… then you obviously need all of them, and you can just apply another skin to this ascended back piece if you don’t want the vines on it…

Else 1 is enough, because the skin will be unlocked account wide, and you can just apply it to any character’s back piece you want…

They could have made legendaries something you could also ‘work on’ and make progress with some NPC (legendary crafter Toby f/e), by actually doing like ‘legendary’ stuff. Instead of achieving ‘legendary lucky RNG kitten’. Now sure, put some of them on drops, i see no harm in that, but the way it is now, you either have luck (which seems to hit the same people, and some completely go without), or you have to farm your bum off to no avail, or buy gems to reward somebody else’s luck.

Again, i made those builds to illustrate the differences in Armour and Health between the two. I will assume you just missed that bit, or that seeing you were just confronted with the inconvenient truth decided to just throw it all into a personal ‘you don’t know kittens’ attack.

Your attitude isn’t even funny, I’m done here. Good luck and Have Fun in your sPvP.

Perhaps you should try and play a thief for a couple of months, you know, just to see if they have any real other options… i am fairly sure you will see the light in under a month… and will also know how to simply beat most of them.

Invisible does NOT mean invulnerable, unhittable, untouchable, it just means you can not see them for 4 sec after which they have a 3 sec revealed debuff on them given they attack. Unless they stealth, while in stealth, in which case the stealth stacks in duration, perhaps annoying but it’s not like (s)he is doing any damage while in stealth, and when (s)he does, you have 3 seconds to nail them and finish them off.

It would be sad to see a player go, but using this kind of emotional blackmail without diving into the situation to understand it, doesn’t sound really fair to those players that try and play a broken 1 dimensional class that has already been nerved into the ground, except for maybe in 1v1 situations against a couple of builds. Now i will assume you play a ranger, because it is basically the only profession against which the Thief is still overly strong. But that is not due to the Thief, it’s because the Ranger is still very much behind (hopefully it’ll get better after the next patch).

- lol, just time your bolas or w/e stun in the 3 seconds of reveal and you caught them… thing is though, if you catch a thief he is done for, if you catch a warrior he basically has all his skills off of cooldown, so basically you didn’t catch him, he caught you…

- At least I am willing to admit where I know and don’t know things, instead of talking about kittens…

- see first, 3 sec reveal and 4 sec in PvP… come on… heck at least you recognize that your first statement about ‘thieves are not complaint about’ was a complete litter of kittens…

- I’m not QQ’ing , this is a balance concern where the warrior gets to do stuff that nobody else even stands a chance of doing. And no ‘not everythief’ I run 25% speed buff, with ‘sprint on dodge’ and shortbow. Sure I can almost catch up with the 1st GS sprint, but as I get close it’s already back off cool down and after that 2nd there is no use to pursue any further. Similar to an elementalist that times his RTL and Flame w/e that is well.

- From my point of view ‘adrenalin’ got a bug fix, where b4 it was just some build it up bar on w/e you do, it’s now an actual mechanic that makes sense. But for one thing though, which remains to be seen, I would find it quite lame if a warrior would entirely deplete his adrenalin on a miss, though not gaining anything that sounds like common sense. And the depletion even more so.

And it’s not like the warrior actually got nerved with this, no, it received a bunch of buffs to compensate for the loss. There are quite some professions that wish theirs nerfs were treated with a similar approach.

- Like I said, it makes you look even worse…

- You may want to compare the warrior’s options to that of other professions, and even then it seems that the warrior is pretty much Omni-Potent. Sure it has to sacrifice something to a more ‘medium level of power’ to also do something else. But look at that GS 5ppl -50% spike you guys got… Sure taking GS is such a ‘sacrifice’…

For the thief Disengage is the spice of life, we can not even fight a sustained fight for anything but a short burst, not even when you play condi, which is easily countered by many professions, and really 3-4 sec reveal should be more then enough to lock a thief in place, as stealth doesn’t mean ‘invulnerable’. I would say that i die more often in stealth, or get pulled or pushed out of shadow refuge, or simply stunned in it, then i care to remember.

As far as the ele is concerned, maybe that has to do with how easy it is to kill them if they didn’t have this option (so basically the same as thief). The warrior however, isn’t killed easily, perhaps this could shed some light on it, check armour/HP:
full zerg warrior: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fJAQJARSjMdU4ZdH+dwJagfAxYgHHHtR972lB-T1REAB5s/wSK/W4IAwmuAAeAAIq+jWKBBA-w
you have 3 shots on that hammer in 3(4) sec of revealed to make sure he’s dead… and the sword doesn’t look like much of a sacrifice if you build on it

full condi thief: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fZAQNAqYVlsMp8pdPxzJ0PNxLBxjf/WzDEAA-TFyCABAcCAEa/hjfCAAqHwT1fSUJYWK/Q+QAAA-w
i didn’t even fill out the thief build, because there isn’t much armour or toughness to gain in the traits, and obviously i gave the warrior a shot, not going for a full zerker thief build

- And it needing a target to even work, so it’s a gap closer not a run away skill. and 30 sec sounds a lot better, that way it could remain 1 time gap creator. Though again, that all depends on what Anet want with these skills, if more professions get decent gap closers and makers, then your proposal sounds reasonable for a heavy classes, given that traiting for swords would take some seconds off of it…

- And lastly, i am not complaining, i am responding to your complaining because you were just spewing nonsense amongst it.

Arcades.4689:

Wvw roaming is not supposed to be balanced.
Gs is pretty much a tax for any warrior build in wvw, since it’s the only way for them to run away from zergs. Warriors lose quite a bit of CC and condi removal to gain that mobility.

Not supposed to be balanced should only apply as far as ‘up levels’ go. And just because it isn’t as balanced as PvP, that means clear problems should not be fixed? The GS escape is just lame, and unlike some argue, ‘no’ you can not catch up to a GS warrior on a thief (I tried many times). And lets face it, if a thief or a ele runs, it’s understandable, you can likely blow them away if they didn’t. A warrior though is a different story, they shouldn’t even have this high mobility because they are fairly Omni-potent already… But fear not, due to the change to Banners, they can now drop their GS and just use a banner to get away, or better yet, use both…

In wvw there are troll builds that are WAY more op than any warrior one, yet no one complains about condi thief/engi or PU mesmers.

This is just so full of Kitten that I can hardly take you serious anymore… Thieves take all the kitten because ANet decided to add stealth, much against the advice of the whole GW1 community, now thieves are stuck with it and ANet wishes they would just go away… Condi Thief is so easy to deal with on a warrior, with high condi clear, high health and high armour, and if you can’t well just run away… Please tell me which other profession can run from a zerg? As a thief I can stealth if on time (that is a big if though), and maybe an Ele can get away everybody else is screwed, so why should a warrior be able to get away. Condi Engies do get complaints, but lets face it, they have 1,5 sort of viable builds, so I can cut them some slack (though that one ‘dump everything at once build’ is just silly)… and the same with PU mesmers, actually I would say that next to the thief, the Mesmer takes the most dislike in WvW of all professions. I would not be surprised if this build is toned down just a little… due to complaints…

In general I just can not understand this, from my point of view Warriors get toned down a tad, maybe by like 5% in areas that don’t really matter much anyways, and overall they are buffed beyond believe (again). They receive MORE run skills on banner, get Thief like burst on GS, get more viable builds. If there is any community that should pretty much wisely ‘keep their mouths shut’ it is the warrior community.

And you personally don’t know what the kitten you are talking about when you say that other professions take no complaints. The thief is pretty much a pile of poo, other than capping ‘sentries’ or ‘bloodlust’ in WvW. Ohw yeah, I can stealth for 15 sec straight so I can spy on people taking a tower or keep so I can inform my commander so he can take appropriate action, and I guess I can blast fire fields. YAY! And that all due to people that are frustrated that a thief has stealth, and thus they can not kill them, which by now they know is so kitten easy, because what ever armour they put on, they are still glass…

Now you may be a great sPvP warrior player, and know your stuff, but you clearly lack WvW knowledge and general ‘profession complaint’ knowledge, so don’t try and act all wise and take some hints from those who do, it doesn’t make you look to good. While your comments might well be viable in PvP (I do not comment on them from that perspective because I know I do not know). And don’t look down on other game formats, just because it’s not yours, it makes you look even worse…

Mostly, If high evade isn’t a problem in PvP, and you do know what you are talking about in sPvP sense, then why the heck defend it for WvW where it is a problem. That skill should have ‘a target’ to pull off, and the range reduced. If Anet thinks high mobility (running away) is a thing, then warriors and guardians should be the worst of the bunch, and there are a number of other professions that should gain some to get a fair chance…

This is a request to Anet and more specifically the ‘balance’ team.

Now I do not frequent this part of the forum because when I do I always end up with to much frustration than I care to endure in relation to a game that a play for my enjoyment. Now ‘unfortunately’ I do occasionally visit here to see how things are going with the professions… the last couple of days have been some of these days… And like other times I am left with the same frustration as ever…

And, I’m sorry, I just can’t seem to formulate my opinion, over the seemingly subjective buffs to some professions and the same in regards to nerfs, in a constructive manner. So I will refrain from it… So just a request, please try and be more objective in regards to the professions. Please do take a step back and evaluate the options of all professions, and whether or not some professions come with only strength and no weakness while others are the entire opposite. Or whether some professions come with more strengths in an area than is healthy for the game…

In regards to pro-activity, please establish a baseline of acceptable power and bring all professions up to that level. There are way to many professions & build options, left in the dark; and for the options that are available to some professions, these builds just seem over the top. The amount of buffs to professions in need seem to far and few in between, and when there are buffs I feel these are to often to big a shift… As an analogy, if you put a feather on a scale you don’t start balancing by putting a pound on the other side. So in regards to making more builds viable, try and buff these with small to medium increments of power increase, that way you don’t take a build from worthless to ‘over the top’ with just one change. (same goes with nerfs btw.)

lastly, I wanted to give examples of certain things, but I just could not without it feeling like an outing of personal frustration. With more general descriptions I think that everybody can fill these in for themselves. I hope that Anet will head to this request and buff more builds and professions in small and incremental steps, to prevent having to nerf them again. And hopefully nerf some professions slightly in regards to their Omni-potency, unless this is the power level Anet strives for, in which case I would like to see that same power level reflected in all professions…

So far for me at least the buffs/nerfs seem to convey a certain favouritism to certain professions, and ‘dislike’ for others, and while it must be great to play a favoured profession, if you continue to be on the nerf end of the stick, or have to wait months on end to see your profession move any bit forward (and when it does, some of the buffs seems so questionable that it’s clear they wont survive for long). It is all but enjoyable…

Seeing some would like to know which professions I do play: I main a Ranger mostly in PvE, I ‘main’ a Thief in WvW, and my two other more on the back burner professions are ‘Necro & Engineer’… perhaps that may explain some of the frustration to some, though as said, I tried to be as objective as possible in this request, and realy hope that Anet steps up ‘our’ game in the broadest sense possible…

This depends so much on the game format you take into account.
1. Judging by the mild toxicity of some comments I would say that for sPvP the thief is fine. Though arguably it be nice if there were more viable builds.

This then leaves PvE and WvW:
2a. For PvE-Solo and PvE-group/dungeon (5), it would say the thief is also fine, though it would be nice if the thief would be less self-centred, some support wouldn’t hurt for dungeons … I were to argue that for PvE-solo, most builds are viable, for dungeons I were to guess some more build diversity wouldn’t hurt…
2b. For PvE open world big group fights, the Thief is doing ok-ish, here it’s usually a matter of another body, which they provide. Again though, being a bit less self-centred would be nice.

Which then leaves WvW:
3a. For WvW Roaming solo, the thief only shines when taking on the lost straglers, or for taking down sentries, capping a BL-point. There are few thieves that I see take a camp on their own, and I hardly ever succeed. For WvW-small group Roaming, the thief is excellent (esp. with a Mesmer), you can use the other person as a distraction (hence mesmers work so well) and go after each other small group member 1 by 1.

3b. For WvW zerging, the thief is worse than a ranger, all you basically have is 2 skills on the short bow, that have a range that makes you feel like an old man with prostate problems. You can’t take a hit (though arguably the new elite-trait deals with this ‘slightly’ and only if you are stealthed). The only support (contribution) you can make is blast stuff with your shortbow, and one utility. The venom share looks like a great thing, but you rely so much on the build of somebody else with it, if they don’t have a condi build you might as well share a pancake with them. And for those builds that do have a condi-build, well it’s more then likely your venoms would add anything they don’t already have…

Now there is one ‘but’, and that is if you manage to stay largely hidden in the fray, and pick on hurt back liners. Though as soon as that train turns around, and you are not aware of it, it’s done for.

lastly, I will say that part of this also has to do with the fact that ‘commanders’ see thieves only for their roaming quality, instead of for their stealth, and communication/coordination can be very hard. And yes, Mesmer stealth is much easier to apply and ‘idiot-proof’ (meaning I don’t really blame the commanders). But technically shadow-refuge can be a very useful skill, seeing that people that enter it also get stealth, and as such there is no 5man limit (it only applies to people in the circle when it is cast).

So is the thief ‘the weakest’? No, not really, it’s mainly the inherent ‘glass canon’ quality of them that makes them useless in a zerg. As well as a great lack of support and being largely ‘self-centred’. This then leads to only a few builds being ‘viable’ and only for the formats they shine in.

The thief could do with, more viable builds (diversity) and group support:
- Bound in Shade (blast): bind allies (5) in shade, giving them stability for x sec.

- Trip wire: knock down foes, or remove stability.

- etc… might make some more…

If you feel this way, then for you it is the case… Now as a long time forum goer (on various forums), I can only give you some advice… Think as a thief, but do not act like one. What do I mean by that?

1. Pick you battles, you don’t go charging into every fight on a thief, the same applies with forum discussions. You might be surprised at how many people think like you do, and will say the things you wanted to say. So if it’s been said, there is no need to do it again.

2. Don’t act on your thief instinct at every opportunity. Sure as a thief after some kills you need to act at every opportunity to find someone alone, or a small enough group where you can get some action. Yet, a small thread that likely dies out fast is no place to go make a big fuss, you are better off finding the longer hardier discussions and make a stand there.

3. Don’t act like a DD zerg thief when you go into these discussions, sure in game you need to get players down b4 they have a chance… but, keep in mind that people have a right to have an opinion and share it, I know it is somewhat counter intuitive in a PvP centric forum-section (I do not frequent here because of the atmosphere at times). but there is no need to Rofl-stomp somebody with all your knowledge, if all (s)he needs is some pointers as to how to deal with certain things. If you ‘rofl-stomp l2p’ them all you do is further convince them that thieves are unreasonable people and they deserve a nerf, if only for behaving like kittens.

4. So really, hit shadow refuge and powder-blast (or something like that), enjoy the invis. time to observe what’s going on, decide if this is a battle you need to meddle with. And if so, choose the appropriate course of action. Don’t go in for the kill, if it’s not necessary, but be informative, friendly and helpful (like you apparently have been for the thief community with your theory crafting – so see the bigger community first…). If things get to hot, then likely shadow refuge or powder-blast should be off cooldown, use them to ‘cool down’.

Lastly, do what makes you enjoy what you are doing. Going after Thieves’r’OP threads like Don Quichot doesn’t sound like fun, and accomplishes nothing. So again, pick your battles wise, and the likeliness of winning the war is bound to increase…

People should really play a profession themselves for an extended period of time, in at least WvW (for mild PvP) b4 they come here and criticize about a profession based upon their experience ‘on another’ profession…

I have been playing a thief in WvW for about the last year, now i will say that Melee isn’t my thing, but seeing the Thief is a mix of Mid-range/Melee i thought it to be an opportunity to learn. My experience is that the Thief is only very strong in a 1v1 and only against a limited number of professions (depending upon the experience level of the player behind it). Mesmers, Engineers (with that ‘newish’ dump everything build) & Warriors are especially hard. Easier but no walk over (if the player is good) are Elementalists and Necro’s, where i will mention that the elementalist is easier ‘if’ (s)he has a Zerg build, any more ‘generally specced’ Elementalist is tough due to all that healing. Same pretty much goes with Guardians, although for me those fights usually end in a stalemate. Rangers are doable, as long as they don’t pack to much immobilize, and as long as you can catch them in melee. Other thieves then, well D/D is a pain, for the rest it largely depends on the skill level…

And this is ALL based on 1v1 scenarios… add in a second player with me (2v1), and the list narrows down to: Good Clone Mesmers / Engineer build, are very hard, Guardians remain to be a lot of work or stalemate. The rest usually dies (except for warriors with their great sword). Add a second player for the opponent (1v2) and I’m left running mostly, if i don’t die flat out…

In all other scenarios I’m only marginally useful, and any WvW fight that matters, I’m left with 2 & 4 for (3×2, 2×4) on the shortbow. Or, if i manage to stay away from ANYthing that packs any bit of punch, i may be able to use my P/D to kill some hurt stragglers wandering around.

I am still very much struggling with my survivability. And i have stealth on my F1, on Dagger 5, on my Heal, and 2 on my Utilities. But being stealthed doesn’t mean a thief can’t be hit. And i use soldier armor, have added vitality on all jewelry (roughly 18.500hp). So, realy, if i were to wear zerg gear my HP would be what? around 14.000 or so? with no real toughness there either. (for toughness i have soldier armor and the ‘undead-set’ (i think) which gives toughness and condition damage. Still most skills of any strength hit me over 1000+ some skills, like eviscerate can hit for 6000+ …

So realy, there is 1 build, D/D that is really strong in 1v1, then P/D that i run is reasonably strong in 1v1 against a few professions, given they don’t pack any condi.clear. For all other scenarios the thief is marginal at best!

And non of this has anything to do with stealth, which already has a ‘revealed’ on use for 3 to 4 seconds on use. Doesn’t mean you can’t get hit, and is the only way to survive anything, usually a 1vMore situation where the only thing left to do is stealth and RUN! It has even less to do with initiative, because I wish i could use my swap to just cast 5 more skills! There is NO rotation but marginal skills on the thief, and if you blow 2x dagger 5 you have 4 seconds of stealth to hopefully get away, give you didn’t blow your 25 sec recharge 4 second stealth on utility Powderblast (or something like that), or the 30sec recharge stealth with the big ‘give away, here i am, hit me with any AoE you have’ other utility shadow refuge.

The only thing that a thief with stealth has, is that it is annoying that you can’t see him, because if you could he be a dang walk over. It’s that frustration, combined with him being very hard to deal with in 1v1 situations given ONE build. That you come here and ask a nerf to a profession that from my point of view has been nerfed to pretty much useless (if it wasn’t for 2 builds that still work).

If you truly want to make a case for a class that needs a nerf instead of a general buff (to make more builds viable), then please go after the Warrior. High damage, High evade (dang long sword), high condi clear, high recovery, high etc…

Ok, seeing I want to work on an other project for a while, i will leave my work up until this point here in a Base file. So that others can work off of it, if they so prefer. This picture has all the stuff in it I plotted so far, with-out any ley line route speculation…

http://s40.photobucket.com/user/arghore/media/Ley_Line_Research_138_BASE_zps4b572913.jpg.html

If you find locations with Portals, working or not, please describe the location in this thread. I’m more then likely to pick this back up in the future, as I do want to add some more things. Just happens to be that I want to work on something else for a while now and this is eating most my time, also the plotting gets a bit tedious after a while :P … so a lil break from my side, but at least most information we have now is plotted on there, while not everything has a legenda, those items should be easily identifiable based upon their ‘icon’.

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

It’s great that you have lots to say, but your posts are a bit long. Maybe a TLDR summary for each one. I gave up after the first one or two…. Sorry.

Some things just can’t be said in 130 characters and a # …. but if you were to manage to read through this section: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/livingworld/lwd/2-weeks-enough-What-about-when-its-done/first#post4263813

then the posts b4 just deals with how I came to that, and the rest to how it could be used to improve the quality of the content.

@Ronin, well who says it didn’t work? perhaps it worked so good that it was reason enough to respond to it…

@Randulf, put the piece on some ship wreck, of which there are plenty… problem solved

Now I realise this would have been a considerable update to accomplish, yet, by using existing foes, and existing locations, changing existing dynamic events. The work load would have been less than actually making all new content. Now true, for the 4th tier some new creatures would have had to be made, but all still within the realm of the Svanir, a group to be expected to be part of some other story segment some other time. So even those have a chance to be reused at some point. The rest is mainly a change in name…

I also recognise that this can not be done with every story step, but, as stories continue to effect certain area’s (level 2), using these kinds of ‘build out’ of existing content in other area’s. The LS could really help to create content for the LW. In this sense I could have easily seen a similar setup used to increase the Centaur Content. Various other Dragon related content. Well basically any large foe group, when effected by a certain story chain, could be enhanced this way.

So I personally think looking at the story at the ‘level 2’ perspective, should give Anet loads of ways to increase how we experience the actual story, besides various story-foe related additions to existing areas. And through that leave actual LW content in the wake of the LS…

One last addition: This mainly due to the scavenger hunt that has been added. And one that could also help on the level 2 part of the story telling.

It could be interesting to place certain story related events, outside of the realm of the actual ‘pointed to’ story steps. In this I am reminded of the final GW1 content, related to the shining blade. As I remember these (so I might be slightly off) there were various things that simply ‘had to be discovered’. Aka. there was content there, but only if you talked to the right person doing the right thing.

Now I’m not saying we should go back to this entirely. But putting in small to medium things to do, related to how the story effects the location (maps) in which it takes place, and ‘casually’ leading the players to these locations, could increase a sense of discovery, could enhance the feeling of there being ‘a big world where we can only be in one place and only do so much’ Using a scavenger hunt for this is obviously a fairly straight forward way to go about it… But the ‘way point effected route’ could have also been (and still be) a way to put some small to minor Mordremoth plunders some ruins en route. Or even just putting in some dynamic events that are seemingly unrelated to the story steps, yet close/ nearby / up-ahead, of the actual story location. Would be a decent way to convey that the events are ‘even bigger’ than what we are lead to experience…

To signify change based upon our actions in this world event, and to add more events to the world. The following could have been done, divide a fair number of Svanir locations and events into a setup with several ‘tiers’. Examples:

In Hoelbrak:
- Tier 0 : Svanir discuss recruitment in various places of Hoelbrak
- Tier 1 : Current Svanir behaviour in Hoelbrak.
- Tier 2 : ‘Current’, but there are just more of them.
- Tier 3 : Svanir boast about the power of Jormag and the Svanir in Hoelbrak.

In wayfarers.
- Tier 0 : The encampment of Svanir is considerably smaller, it consists of a few recruiters, recruits, and a veteran.
- Tier 1 : The encampment is about 2/3 of normal, the recruiters are replaced with normal svanir, there are still recruits, there is like a veteran with 2 luits.
- Tier 2 : The encampment is it’s normal size, there are only normal Svanir, and it’s basically like it is now.
- Tier 3 : The encampment is the way it is now, there are 3 Shaman added, which have a dynamic champion event, as they periodically ‘initiate’ a Svanir to the full power of Jormag.

The forest in between the pass north and the river
- Tier 0 : Several Svanir Recruiters would come out of the woods and address passers by.
- Tier 1 : Svanir recruits would do what happens there now.
- Tier 2 : Normal Svanir would do what happens now.
- Tier 3 : Several Shaman would try and corrupt the Oak Heart there, and succeed if not stopped -> Slay the Corrupted Oakheart.

Along route north
- Tier 0 : recruiters would try and talk norn into joining the Svanir. The camps along the route are empty (in habited by creatures)
- Tier 1 : recruiters would try and talk norn into joining svanir, interchanged with roadblocks manned by recruits. The camps would have a vet svanir with recruits.
- Tier 2 : Roadblocks would be manned by a recruit and normal svanir, camps are manned with normal svanir and vet.
- Tier 3 : Roadblocks would be manned by 3 normal svanir, they have siege engines manned. And the camps would have an ‘elite or champ’ boss in it.

other locations
As you progress further north, the recruiters wouldn’t make sense anymore, there be less recruits, but perhaps ‘initiates’ could take their place in the lower tiers.

Ok so now! As we slay these Svanir during the world event ‘win the norn over’, the bar would be divided into 5 parts. Seeing most ‘tiers’ are on the ‘tier 2’ level in their current setup (or the update would set them into this tier). Then upon reaching the first quart of the entire bar. All the events would scale into tier 3, we could receive a mail from Braham, that our actions haven’t gone unnoticed, and that the Sons of Svanir are strengthening their positions ‘all over’ the shiver peaks.

Upon reaching the 2nd ‘divide’ on the bar, all the events would scale back to tier 2. Upon reaching the 3rd divide they would scale back to tier 1. Upon… all the way down to tier 0. YaY! Success, we won the Norn over, the Svanir have been dealt a considerable blow, and won’t be much of a problem for quite some time…

After all these events, the created ‘tiers’ could now be linked to failure of various event dealing with the Svanir. Where they would eventually scale up the tiers… And success in completion of events would eventually scale them down in tiers. Perhaps a time restraint could make change more eminent, or even taking ‘season’ into consideration (mainly winter time) would be a cue to scale things up (or down).

We would have had a great number of fights, and our fights would have felt like they were responded to by the Svanir (going up in Tier). As we fought on our victories would have felt like they made an impact on the world, for as far as Svanir are concerned. And we would have been able to see the changes. And, seeing that there are now various tiers created, this content can there after be used to facilitate the living world experience… and in all honesty, as far as content is concerned, nothing really changed, all events in all places can still be enjoyed, on every tier. Yet the experience of these areas turns from ‘in limbo’ into ‘changing’.

The weird thing with the Sons of Svanir is, that they have a base of operation in Hoelbrak. On the other hand, there seems to be a lore reason for it, seemingly Norn society is open to all Norn regardless of the Spirit they Warship. In the ‘Win the Norn over’ it could have been part of the conversation with Eir. Because I was thinking “they have a problem with Svanir? Why let them live in Hoelbrak?”. A few lines would have been enough:

PC: If you have such problems with Sons of Svanir, why do you let them live amongst you in Hoelbrak?
Eir: We have learned from conflicts in the past that judging a person on their spirit is not beneficial to our tribe as a whole.
PC: But these Sons of Svanir obviously cause trouble.
Eir: If we were to throw out everybody involved in any brawl or barfight, Hoelbrak would be pretty empty by now.
PC: I see…
Eir: And it’s not so much the Svanir here in Hoelbrak, but those living further away.
PC: Still though, the obvious place to come into contact with them, join them, and increase problems elsewhere start here.
Eir: That is a good point, throwing them out though is no solution.
PC: Well, let me go and talk to them, perhaps they can influence their peers..
(or something along these lines)

Then we were to head towards the Sons of Svanir base, and enter a small instance there, to talk to ‘the boss’. He would obviously scoff any of our reasoning, and boast about the power of Jormag, and how one day all of Norn will have joined the Svanir. Then we would obviously argue that, if they are not willing to listen to reason, we will have to go out and do something about their operations. Which ‘the boss’ would obviously laugh at, and challenge us to try…

We would then be send out to destroy the nearest Svanir Camp. Upon completion, we would return to ‘the boss’ and tell him that if they don’t change their ways of aggression towards people in the shiver peaks this wouldn’t have been the last thing you did. He would obviously laugh at your puny attempt to put a dent into their organization, Jormag and the Sons of Svanir are bigger than just one camp. You would obviously respond that he will regret this stance.

You would then get the ‘step’, ‘show the Svanir what you are made off’, which would send you to 5 area’s in the shiver peaks, with the assignment to slay the Svanir in those locations. After doing so, you would return to ‘the boss’, showing that you made true on your promise; He would obviously respond with something along the lines of: ’Don’t you think you can ever defeat the Svanir, if you defeat one, two will take it’s place’. (Hail Hydra! *cough*). Then he would obviously turn red and you would defeat him…

We would return to Eir to discuss the situation. How we tried to convince them, but that their believe is to strong. Eir would point out that she heard they have already assigned a new leader in Hoelbrak (he would obviously take the place of the previous ‘boss’ after the events are over, so that ‘nothing really changed’). And she would point out again that if we didn’t do something about the Svanir, that the Norn leader would not come to our summit. To which we obviously have to reply that we will go and deal with it…

Cue, ‘world event’, ‘Win over the Norn’. A bar would indicate progress, and the goal is to ‘cull the number of Svanir in the Shiver Peaks’. Progress would be made on all servers in the whole of the Shiver Peaks (or a couple of designated maps – if all is to much work to program or strain). At the end of this world event we would be called to Eir again, and our success would be recognized and they will join our summit…

Ok so far I haven’t added anything, but that is now to follow, i’ll use a new post to show how the last phase could be used to signify change and to add to events, and create a more living world.

Ok, lesson learned… spend more time to come up with a title that better covers what you want to discuss. The main reason for this thread wasn’t so much the release schedule, seeing I already assume the preparation time to exceed the 2 week release schedule. If anything the title was supposed to hint to the question whether sticking to this schedule is doing the quality any good… or rather, if making it 3-5 weeks, or even months would actually improve it…

My personal conclusion from this is that no amount of time would ever be enough, so it comes down to finding out what could or should be done to come to a certain level of quality that is acceptable for the time frame it needs to be conceived in. Now just giving criticism on the level of ‘it sucks’, to me, feels rather easy. If you can’t recognize the problems Anet has to deal with, and can’t come up with ways to deal with this and propose ways to improve releases, then your criticism isn’t helping anything. It’s a mere venting of frustration, instead of helping the game along.

So a large part of the posts were an analysis of what’s actually going on, and how content is being received. To then draw a conclusion on a ‘higher level’ to reach a viewpoint through which the current content can be evaluated (aka. the levels of which the story influences the world). To then indeed analyse the content this way, and find area’s where it can be improved, to then give examples of how this could be achieved in a way that makes it recognizable for the player, and in a sense easy (not very time consuming) for Anet to implement. So that we can all benefit from an improved quality or at least come to an acceptable level of interaction between the story and the world. Because I think that is what we are all (Anet & Players) after…

Now there is another thing I feel Anet is struggling with, which from my point of view can also ‘partially’ be solved by looking at the LS content (playing out in the open world) differently. It is how to create more content for the game and players, by having the story run in certain areas. I will give an example in the next post, of how I think that using the Living Story to create content for the Dynamic Event System, would increase the amount of events for normal play, while increasing the Living World experience. It’s basically a continuation of my monologue discussing level 2 of the story interaction with an example of how the ‘Win the Norn over’ could have been designed…

While I love the fact that people comment on the threads I start, this thread was meant to discuss the LS & LW other than the bugs.

In this regard I am not talking about vine events attracting a fair amount of aphids (who could have guessed). No, I am talking about the little things…

So if you could take the bug discussion elsewhere, that be much appreciated. Any sensible discussion on what this thread is about: Being the quality of the content in relation to the time spend on it, and how where the quality could be improved; Is much appreciated, I am only one person, and I can only give my point of view, of my ideas. Any feedback, consideration or agreeing is thus welcome…

CureForLiving.5360:

I thought I’d point that out just in case you though that someone like myself (a Afrikaans lad from the platteland) communicated in some weird alien luminescent, scent based fashion :P

Wait, did you just say you do not light your farts to communicate empathy with those around you? xD

VOLTCIEAGE.3029:

I dont know how to help you , i killed it at first try with my guardian and there is no tactic dps it , keep the distance heal and dps it again i lost my health maybe once to 20% but it was just my mistake becasue i was dpsing him too long

I don’t need help ^^ … I died 2x and got him on the 3rd try by continuously running around, not attacking it when it had double Retaliation, and trying to dodge as many of his jumps as possible. I may have also used a ‘Sylvari healing turret’, and ‘Healing Seed’ to provide some additional healing. As well as using my pets as much as I could…

That I managed to kill it has nothing to do with the criticism I give regarding this creature. It’s just to strong to belong in a story instance where all people of all skill levels pass through, that, after opening said box, if only out of curiosity might be forced to restart the whole instance just because this thing is designed to be to strong for a story instance. And it’s size and skill set made the character disappear in it way to often, which was highly annoying. If you want to help me with that, than you could agree with me… but seeing experiences are highly personal, it is hard to see beyond one’s own. Now I happen to have a friend that I hope will not open that box, because they can not finish that thing, their experience of it will be even more horrid than mine…

So again, the creature does not belong in the story instance at that strength (which is my major point). Then it has some annoying ‘clipping’ with character effects that are highly annoying for gameplay (which is my second point). Besides the clipping I find it fairly ok for a challenge, though I will refer back to ‘So again…’ just above here, in relation to it being ‘a challenge’.

@Doivid, ok tnx … i’ll take your word for it … well if there be any organization that would study something like this I think the order of whispers makes for the most likely candidate, if not directly calling it ley lines, they might well be studying something that comes close due to linking certain events in the world together to find a bigger picture (which would then happen to coincide with the ley lines). Though I will say that it looks way to crude for ‘us’ to draw such conclusions or do anything specific with it… (unfortunately).

@Cormac, yeah sorry, I’m not going to go for that one…

Wanderer.3248:

Dodge backwards usually keeps him in front of you.

This guy was much easier than the statue fight at the end of part 3.

Yeah I can only do that 2.5x and that’s on a ranger, and tbh. it doesn’t help much, because he is so fast and has that jump that does that high damage … Also, that double Retaliation makes him dang hard to deal with as well, hadn’t even mentioned that…

Well see, there I do not agree, or at least not from my experience. I play a ranger with Axe/Axe & Warhorn + traps. So I basically stood somewhere in the middle, put traps down for that Mender, and just watched any red circles, when the mender was down I simply turned around and hit the statue. It was done and over with one down, which was basically when some of the AoE and one of these orbs hit me consecutively in one big hit… I was back up b4 I knew it though as some spirit died…

So clearly some foes are harder for certain builds and play styles, I think that is all good, but the thing remains is that this wolf has some really annoying features, and simply isn’t fun. I will say that it is great for a challenge, but it just should not be in there (in this fashion) in the story instance, as you force a lot of players to restart the instance just because they happen to open a box with a slightly OP creature esp. when compared to all other creatures in the whole instance…

Personally my main concerns are with 2 and 4, as these are the most apparent and mostly convey a Living World connection with the Living Story. But I do want to mention/add something about 3.

Conveying 3. I think it is important for Anet to consider how news spread on Tyria, f/e we see that Belinda takes a report to Fort Salma. In another instance I think it was Rox who mentioned she send a ‘mail’/‘letter’ to Rytlock. I will assume her this is a Pidgin-Mail as that seems to be the way ‘mail’ is conveyed to the players. Both imply a certain timeframe for news to travel, which would obviously need to be considered in regards to mentions here and there. F/e the ‘runner’ that is taking the Artefact from Iron Marches attack to the Priory, will take a certain amount of time, after this time the conversation I put in my 2nd post would start to make sense…

Luckily the scope of our story is so ‘Omni-present’ that the places where the response needs to be conveyed are fairly limited. It’s in the higher command echelons of the Races, and The Orders. And this is only for as far as they could make sense, f/e the attack on LA would have only made sense to be discussed in Divinity Reach, they are closest by and LA was a human city. And in the Azura Capital, where the ‘portal crew’ would have to be send to LA to fix/set up the portals…

The people concerned would more then likely be in the same places every time, taking the humans for example, it would be either: ‘the queen & anise’, ‘the politicians’, ‘the headquarters of the Seraph’, depending on the scope of the information. This is both convenient for Anet and for us the players, there are distinct places where background information can be ‘added’ / ‘found’.

This could even be split up, in a ‘general information’, ‘race associated information’, and when the orders are concerned ‘order affiliation’. The cool thing about this part of the information line, is that it can extend over onto the forum, as people can share the more detailed information. Aka. it stimulates interaction outside of the game…

Connection with 4 The way information spreads is then important for how it travels into the world at large. Seeing that we just established that the convenience of ‘information hubs’ is both beneficial to Anet and to Us as players, why not use it in other places as well: ‘gossip square’, could be a location in every capital where certain NPCs share snippets of information based on ‘hear say’.

Seeing these are also the location where players congregate it is the most convenient place to convey an interaction between the LS and the LW (for Anet). Seeing ‘hear say’ more then often warps the information as it travels, it may also be a good place to serve as an outlet for some humour. And for us as players this offers a nice change in these locations, which by far have the highest annoyance of repeated ‘voice acting’ in the whole world.

In a world with low tech information spreading, there are two other ways where information spreads. It is the close vicinity, and along route of merchants & travellers. From these the ‘vicinity’ is the most important, you simply can’t convey a living world with LA in ruins and not have some mentions about it in the closer vicinity of LA that more than likely depends heavily on the city for shopping, have relatives living there, etc…

And last would be the merchant/traveller trails, information along these lines goes slow, but distortion is less likely to occur, seeing the source of information is the same along the line. Though seeing that settlements depending on their information from these sources rely so heavily on them, it’s not uncommon for that information to sing around for some time, and because it can take quite some time to reach these places it is news there long after the events have passed.

Using this can give some interesting conversation with people in these places, where you as a player can fill people in on more recent events… In this sense I am reminded of some conversation between some NPCs in some fort, en route to LA. They could be a great place to change some conversation, incorporating them hearing about the destruction of LA, and how they should maybe change their plan. Where you can then fill them in that LA is already rebuilding…

Obviously these last ones would be far and in between, sort of like the sprinkling on the Whip cream on the Cake that already has a cherry on top. But still, using the Merchant routes to spread tidbits of information can make the world feel more alive and at least convey the spread of information…

Obviously I do not know how Anet does their stuff either… It is to be expected that they do as much as possible before hand, so that the 2 weeks in between episodes can be used to finalize & tweak things. But regardless of how they do things, on the management/ organisational front, you can evaluate the outcome of it, and compare it to things that one would expect… This thread is more about those things.

When I was re-evaluating what I said above here, I basically came to the following ‘things’ to be connected to telling a story in a game world.
1. The story itself, what is it about, whos involved, where does it take place. How does it effect those involved.
2. How does story effect the locations in which it takes place.
3. How do the story events effect those that are indirectly connected to the story, how does ‘the news’ spread to them. And what are their reactions.
4. How do the story events effect the world at large, how does ‘the news’ spread, and what are the reactions.

We can see that a lot of time and effort goes into 1. and I were to argue that when viewed overall this is actually going fairly well, some inconsistencies/ criticism in it can be related to later points.

Where it concerns 2. we can see that the effects of the story seem to stick fairly within the constraints of the story scope, I say fairly because there are ‘tid-bits’ scattered around (vines spreading, books library) that do try and broaden the scope of the story into the world.

As far as 3 is concerned, we see again that for as far as it is incorporated into the story it is addressed, but outside of the story we see little to none (now sure, given that the world is huge, there might be some locations that try and do this, I personally haven’t come across them). This is also the point where the Living Story starts to convey a Living World, so in regards to this forum-section (LS & LW) it is in the right spot to mention this.

4. Seems to be of the least concern, now sure a lot of the LSed1 is concerned it took place all over the world. The thumpers, the invasions, but these are still fairly within the constraints of 2. Though even with these events we (at least myself) hardly saw any interaction of these events with the normal events in those same locations.

Some more considerations, thoughts and possible solutions in the next post

I haven’t had any other visions lately, now I do not know what you are on, but yeah, that one…

@Orangensaft & @Voltcieage, it is something you run into if you open that box, even if you are NOT going for the achievement. I basically opened the box out of interest, well I wish I hadn’t. But surely I am not going to restart this instance just because some foe is there.

And no, I do not think this is a well designed foe, at least not when it’s in the normal story. For an achievement sure, even though I found the whole disappearing of my character in the thing not in the slightest bit enjoyable.

And on ‘trasher mobs’, if you mean those vines, then yes, I can’t agree more, they need at least an HP buff by about 30% and even more as they scale up.

When you mean those Champs, I also do not agree, they are very 1 dimensional. One has a clear ‘stay out of reach’ to defeat. The other a ‘stay in range to defeat’ mechanism. While ‘soft spots’/‘weaknesses’ are great, they become rather silly if they are a complete 1 dimensional lack. I would have personally put a ‘grasping vine’ skill on the biped, where it can pull PC(s) to it, on a longer cool down. And for that flower thing, it needed an evade skill (basically a monster version of ‘Roll for Initiative’) or a PBAoE-knockback (perhaps linked to a ‘invulnerable’ buff, as the knockback could come from destructible vines) also on a longer cool-down. And with longer I mean 35+sec. And that monster skill that creates those spines, they should have been destructible so that you can actually save people from them. That would have made them a lot more interesting, as opposed to the 1 dimensional solution creatures they are now.

The wolf, for me was just to annoyingly ‘in your face’ with a ridiculous high damage skill on a very short cool down. While maybe interesting for a one time achievement hardly agreeable to put into a story step quest where everybody of all skill level may have to deal with it…

I would also like to add that it could give some more peace of mind on Anet’s side, 2 weeks to produce a lot of content, and surely at the end you yourself should realise that ’it’s never enough’. To then have the community pick apart every bit and put a big pile of salt on every snail in every corner. It sounds like something from a burn-out horror story…

Now sure, there have to be delivery moments, dead lines, and all that sass. But trying to build Rome in 2 weeks. Sounds more like a way to set yourself up for failure, which isn’t at all a good way to build confidence and gather inspiration and motivation to keep it up…

Why also stick with these 2 weeks, especially for the little things, if something makes sense is done, why not put it in. I mean, those vines growing were a really nice thing! As well as the books. They weren’t on some 2 week schedule… surely by now, after 2 attacks on Priory Shipments, there should be some buzz going on there… it doesn’t have to be much, it doesn’t even have to be pointed at in the LS (directly if it’s not needed right now, it might become a good angle to add something to as the story progresses).

A simple 2 people dialog with a voice acting:
a) What do we do about our transports now that they are under attack?
b) Well does two make a pattern?

Cue some text:
PC – what is going on?
a) – well I think we should consider changing our transport roster.
PC – Why is that?
a) – The continued attacks by these vines.
PC – so why not do it?
a) – ‘X’ here thinks it’s to early to speak of a pattern of attack.
PC – good luck convincing him!

PC @ b.
PC – what is going on?
b) ‘Y’ here wants to change our transport roster, I do not agree?
PC – Why?
b) Our transports are getting attacked by these vines.
PC – So change your roster?
b) Well, two attacks doesn’t make a pattern, and it’s hard to change schedules.
PC – Why is that?
b) People are creatures of habbit, and two points are easily connected, but that doesn’t mean they are.
PC – well good luck on your decision!

Done, maybe 10 min, grab 2 existing NPC’s and add the dialog, cue the two lines, which could be just the voices of two employers. Adds another 30min. Put it on the internal live server, have QA run in 20 times to see if the voices pop, and text is in order… put out…

OR:
Grab a piece of some area along the line of Mordi’s movement, grab an interesting piece of rubble or place of significance. Add some structural vines to it, maybe some spawn points for vines set timer to 10min … with existing structure and things created, can’t be more than an hour of work … push to QA … push to live…

This will also make the waiting time a bit more palatable, and keep interest in what’s going on and what will come in the minds and heart of the community. And it doesn’t even have to relate directly to the current story. I mean, what about some Sylvari or Charr or Norn voice acting talking about the hit to LA.

The more I think of it, the more I think this might be more of a Anet wide thing. ‘Change something every other day’. Notify people long in advance, so they can think about it in their own time. Urge them to keep it small, so implementation isn’t more than a few hours or morning for somebody. And add it… Could also be great for inter-departmental bonding, broadening understanding of the work in other departments, and give people at Anet a way to put a personal (be it small) stamp on the world.

anyways, I hope you will consider some of this feedback… time for me to just enjoy the game.

While the format, of ‘unlocking’ and repeatability for achievements, has done a lot for the amount of urgency and stress related with the LS. I still feel that the LS could and should be so much more than it is now…

Now I know it’s a learning process, and that the method of delivery has changed a lot in regards to season 1 & 2. I still feel that the amount of time spend to polish these stories is just to short. In this regard I am not talking about vine events attracting a fair amount of aphids (who could have guessed). No, I am talking about the little things that feel like they are shoved under the carpet, the part where the story makes a ‘living world’ … as apposed to a ‘perpetuating story’.

And even in regards to the story it can be mentioned that some parts feel rushed. Not even so much in the implementation, but also in the preparation. And how palatable a story is, is (for me at least) directly related to how believable it is. And believable has only little to do with realism! For this I will have to elaborate a little bit:

- See the DryTop place and story felt really good, a lot of planning has obviously went into this. Only criticism I basically read was, where is the urgency with big monsters (by somebody obviously hooked on urgency stress). And, the whole place feels rather ‘linear gated’ due to the layout’, which is just a feature that comes with a canyon system, actually it’s what makes a canyon system differ from an open desert…

- Then cue Part 3, and then mostly convincing these leaders. (using just the Norn) It felt hardly believable that a Norn Leader would come to the summit after destroying one base. Why only one base? There are various places where we could hit the Sons of Svanir, why not use them? A simple list of events to complete would have made it much more believable that we actually dealt a blow to the Svanir. In all honesty I personally ‘ran’ all the way from Hoelbrak to that camp and I culled every Svanir in sight (shouting death to the Svanir in my head – as shouting it for real could wake up people and raise some eyebrows)

OR, for the whole Crown thing, why not send us to Orr to find some piece of text, which Rytlock knows is there but hasn’t been able to get his hands on due to the large amount of Risen still in the area. Which could have been a nice moment to ‘cue’ again that even though Zhaitan has been defeated his corruption still lingers. Well I guess you get the picture..

These things all have to do with the preparation time available, and obviously the implementation time. How can you give your players the most bang for their time by using as much existing (repurposed) content as possible, with the intent to make the story as well as the world as believable as possible…

More time would obviously also give more implementation of the little things I started with. The impact on the world, the part where the story makes the world a living one, because that is not just about the scars it leaves, it’s about the little things. Changing dialog here and there, a Mordi Vine attack in some place we are not ‘led to’ by the story, or even some event with them… How does the story we go through have an effect on the ‘day to day’ world!

Anyways, 2 weeks somehow feels to short, and if part 3 is any tell on what the amount of time available can do to the LS, then I would argue that 3 weeks or even ‘when its done’ sounds like a better way to get the quality up.

I gave narwhalsbend a big +1 … I was actually pleasantly surprised that I got these mysterious items, I was hoping on an interesting side quest to find locations, perhaps get ‘a couple’ (as is 2 or possibly more, but still less than 6) of items to extend the combination possibilities…

Then I noticed this ‘show location’ thing, and it just blatantly showed where to go ?!? Like sure, it’s going to be on the interwebs in under 24h, but at least people can choose to use that as a source. And yes, obviously I didn’t look at the other pieces…

But then I read these threads about the whole process, and I’m like …?!?… so I dig a lil deeper and now what should have been a fun side quest to ponder about and see if I can find the things I need based on clues etc. I see I have to work a whole chore list including time gated crafting at 400+ level for several crafting professions, need to get lucky on farming a great number of trees as well as farm Dry Top…

Now I have done and participated in quite a number of Scavenger Hunts in GW1, organized by the community that felt a lot more enticing than this…

Some pointers:
- Remove those silly ‘show me’s from the item… if people do not want to spend the time they will use the internet, it will be on there in a matter of days. But at least you do not make those that want to challenge themselves look stupid to themselves by not just clicking the item…

- Know the world you make the hunt in, and make sure clues are descriptive, a clue doesn’t have to lead straight to the item, they can lead to another clue.

- Use a scavenger hunt to showcase clues or hints as they pertain to the story. This is more of an implementation feedback, but it could be nice to use the scavenger hunt to lead to places that have dialog or scenery that has to do with the story. f/e:
a. Close to some Priory Caravan that has a quarrel on whether to continue or not after the recent events.
b. Some villagers talking about another dragon. The ‘have you heard it ’gossip’ like stuff’
c. A location where the Vines have also struck, but where we have no immediate link to in our story journal. F/e. bringing us somewhere along the path of the vines (or a bit onward along the path) and have it attack a Krait Den. OR, you could have us enter some ruins that have vines in them and the upgrade location of some item shows that there was ‘once’ an object with great magic there, and that the residual magic in the area is enough to upgrade, with vines there it is pretty clear what happened…

- Try and avoid to have to make new drops, but utilize or change existing ones:
a. Source of Clay: from Earth Elementals (in combination with f/e turning pepples/gravel/stone to some NPC), from silky sand (dried up chunk of clay), from Geodes (as ’this is not a geode, just a hump of dried up clay), or Grab it from some swampy environment.
b. etc…

Guess one example is enough to illustrate that a scavenge hunt doesn’t have to be a ‘farm and craft’ list of chores … if anything, it has to do with riddles and exploration …

Don’t think the big damage has to go, but it be nice if the recharge on it could be a bit more agreeable with a general average build. Large hits do give this thing an actual feeling of thread… Same with his large health pool… the thing that makes it so hard is that the recharge on his big skills seems to be 3 sec. So after you use your 2 evades, blow your heal then a 3rd evade, then all there is left to run around like a headless chicken ‘praying’ you wont be hit by this big thing he just keeps throwing out…

Though, what I found most annoying is him being so ‘in my face’ where mostly due to ‘non-blocking’ in the game, I could not even see where I was. He is big and blocking my view of my character, not seeing when I am being hit, what hits big etc… this in your face experience was all but enjoying…

On a more serious note, I think that after the vision we can clearly relate the 4 schools of magic to the role of the 4 bloodstones pieces (with the keystone having no specific magical forcing/inhibiting properties). And have to accept that there are at least 6 possibly 7 sources of ‘mana’ for the Tyrian magic system (as relating the magic system of Tyria to that of Magic the Gathering).

@Draxynnic and Dustfinger, yeah I know that Higgs is not confirmed, but at least it holds a stronger card than Dark Matter atm. which from my point of view has only been ‘deducted’. And yes, even though I am only aware of the more general descriptions and ‘main stream’ publication data. These are very interesting times for scientists… not in the least because various ‘theories/hypothesis’ will find their Waterloo…

The only fears I have is that this will, in a sense, be fuel for all the masses that do not understand the process of science, and will see the failing theories as a means to point at the weakness of science as a whole. Well, as forum goers you likely now what I mean by that, and it’s to be expected to happen…

Another is that I personally ‘feel’ for all those scientists that put their lives work into some of these theories, and how many will be more likely to point at them being wrong, as apposed to pointing at all the work they did to make various experiments possible, to be a backing force behind the study of the phenomenon as a whole. In my personal view there are no ‘winners or losers’ in science, in fact, w/e happens it is always science that wins… for the general public, as personal experience and inter-departmental strife is concerned though, that might be the entire opposite. Just like in sports all praises will go to the champion, and nobody realises that everybody in the competition contributed to it being a successful competition…