Guild Wars 2

About communication..

Not knowing if we will actually get a CDI on that topic, still something I would want to get off my chest. Even though I value the CDI approach very high, and I think it’s a great way to get customer feedback in a more structured approach…

I still feel like its very much a one way street, not so much that Anet is not contributing during the CDI, even though we would all love to see more red post in there I am sure. But I’m talking about what happens next, and I think that is also were some of the recent upheaval comes from… Mainly, after the CDI is finished, ANet talks about stuff and then makes a decision to do X or A or w/e. Works on that, and then it’s presented ‘as is’.

I dunno, I sort of miss a step in ‘communication’ there, I’m not sure if it would work, but where is the step: “We discussed the CDI internally, and we are strongly leaning towards doing ‘this’, what do you guys think? before we put the time into it.” Once you put ‘this’ and substitute it by 3 coloured commander tags for 300g each, I am sure the responses are clear by now. ‘Yet & But, seeing it is not a ’given’ we just have to deal with, it’s an intermediate step in communication where you ask the person(s) you talked to about how they feel about the choice you eventually made".

It would give Anet things to talk about, even thought they are not finalized, they could test the waters with whether the chosen road is the one to take; and we are not surprized by something we wanted somewhat but didn’t ask for in that rendition of it.

Heck, it might even be ‘after’ the thing is finalized, but then ‘talked about’, not dumping it as this is what it is, deal with it release… but more of a ‘this is what we made of it, what do you think b4 we put it into the game’. So that they do not feel the obligation to then have to come up with the feature, or say they failed, and stick to the ‘we only talk to what is ready’… yet accepting that there is a difference between ‘talking about it’ and ‘releasing it’…

snipped some stuff, leaving what I want to respond to.

…but when I am working I smile when I am NOT and I meet that same person in the street I have no obligation to smile and take the insult or rude behaviour…

…I honestly did not take offense to the comment and even Chris said he was not trying to be offensive but honest. If i felt that it was an abusive post then i’d be right there with you commenting on how things should change. Again the whole point of this is to have a discussion with no “toxic” elements involved and I am truly happy that we both want the same thing a peaceful place to exchange ideas with the developers of the game that we ALL love and I think that is a very good thing.

That’s all true, but like I said earlier, if Chris would have come here on his personal account, I would not have made the post ( maybe I worded that part a bit poorly ). But once he puts on that tag, even though he says a 100 times he is responding from his own home computer, he just isn’t by perception. It would be like you or me taking an envelope and paper with watermark from our work and writing the customer in our own time, how we personally think about how he addressed his problem… so ok this is somewhat overextending it, but you likely get what I mean, once he is ‘red’ he is Anet, and that comes with extra care in regards to how you address consumers/customers

Well I did take a bit of offense to it, and maybe you should too, there was a lot of passive aggression between the lines, and a lot of ‘well we should thank Chris on our bare knees for taking the time out of his busy schedule to talk to us, so stop attacking him’ … while he wasn’t really attacking him, nor any other dev. the way I read it he asked a legit question, and made an even more legit statement. But my problem isn’t so much with that response, it is with Chris validating that kind of response. with a ‘I couldn’t have said it better’… where I personally think he could have done a lot better:

“Whether it is good or an acceptable reason is rather objective. The thing remains that our dev’s have to do this in their own time, and you wouldn’t want to be faced with the attitude you face on delivery, in your personal time as well, right?

And we are pretty much held to the same standard when we do choose to communicate with you guys. We can’t just respond in the same emotional way that some of consumers comments are written in. We have to consider how ‘what we say’ comes across. Even if us staying friendly and understanding to your concerns could contribute just a tiny bit in how you voice your opinions to us, that might benefit us all. So we have to."

But I dunno, maybe it takes a few years of practice to learn how to communicate with customers, tell them how they are entirely right, yet still let them see where and why they are wrong (if they are). And be friendly and respectful all the way through… It’s dang hard, actually .. and just so much easier to just tell them how they were just stupid to do or expect x or y … Well seeing you worked in customer service, I am sure you know about the stuff we can only say in the coffee corner :P

@Zoso, that is the double edged sword here … I would prefer a much less toxic atmosphere to begin with, where all dev’s feel welcomed to speak and share thoughts. That starts somewhere … but what surely doesn’t help is validate a toxic post …

And people should basically ignore an attack, or reduce impact of it by responding clear and sane to the possible valid points raised in it. Not go in a counter attack mode, further fueling the debate into an emotional one.

And I’m sorry but I don’t want to know if a person feels hurt, that is not a reason to communicate to anyone once you get past high-school. The thing that is important is whether or not the other person understands you, regardless if (s)he agrees.

And also, and it’s unfortunate, and I wouldn’t have said that above, but once Chris has a red tag on, he is no longer Chris… He is an authority figure from Anet, I mean, do you really think Chris would get all these suck up posts if he were just some normal person here? No… of course not… But with that also comes that people have a right to their opinion and voice criticism, as long as it is formulated in a respectful manner. That is the standard we are going for here right?

Well that Pizza delivery guy didn’t cross any lines, he was respectful and merely asked the question if Christ thought it to be weird that he had to be friendly and keep talking when he faces a customer as ‘a service provider’, and people from a gaming company also providing a service, were not… Legit question from my objective pov… That response from the Dev defence fanclub on the other hand, had so much ‘just kitten you simple pizza guy’ draped between the lines that it should just be ignored, like a lil kid throwing a fit for not getting a cookie b4 supper. Let alone see it validated…

Because in a sense the Pizza guy was right, it’s the reason we have this thread right? Because we think Anet needs to communicate more/better. (so that is point one). The other being, ‘are they held to a higher standard’, YOU BET! … Anet staff set the bar to what is acceptable, they express themselves in the way they want to be addressed to themselves… etc. and so on… so really, they are held to a higher standard than Joe Scrubby that customer that can just blab w/e, as long as he doesn’t cross the lines… which lines? well those set by ANet… see how that works…

And indeed, ANet has done a great job in the past, sometimes it slips a bit, but they do Care! As shown by their actions, and as long as you are actually willing to see that they do! … other companies aren’t always the same, depends a lot about the market they are in. But regardless, a company may be able to ignore their customer… yet, lowering oneself to the level of the customer is never an option! At least not in the companies I worked for in the customer service department, that respected themselves and their consumers.

I’m not sure if I take it to the extreme, I just feel very strongly about this, I have seen this spiral out of control in the case of mod behaviour on sites. And I have had numerous discussions about this ‘at work’, where w/e a customer says, you answer their questions with a and pretend they are the best and most friendly customers you ever faced. I’m sorry but that is just how it works, and should work! Because what do you think communication will turn out if there isn’t somebody setting the standards and upholding them?

Now I know I take a risk posting this, but seeing this thread is about communication, it just has to be said… and seeing how I see how the concept of “the authority figure determines the atmosphere, and sets the example”. It is even more apparent that at least some-one has to point this out. It may as well be me…

So I do hope that Chris will take a moment to walk away from his computer, get a drink, and drop out of ‘respond’ mode, before he reads this…

Please note that this is not a personal attack, you are entitled to your personal opinion, but I just have to warn you about how you express yourself, and the example it sets…

Gene Archer.8560:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

and honestly a lot of the team who care deeply about Arena and the community are to scared to post because let’s be honest forums in general can be quite toxic.

I’m sorry, Chris, but this is neither a good nor acceptable reason to avoid the forums.

I work right now as pizza delivery. It really, really sucks. You can be delivering in a snowstorm, be two minutes late, and the customer won’t care.

….snip…

And that’s for a lowly pizza delivery job. You guys are so much higher up on the food chain.

Doesn’t it strike you as a little odd that the lowly pizza guy is being held to far higher customer interaction standards than the large corporation that has a critically acclaimed video game?

Ashen.2907:

Do you do all of that for your customers on your free time? Off the clock? Does the accountant or payroll person at your company’s corporate HQ drive out to the customer’s house to apologize?

I ask because dev posts on the forums are not part of their work-load. They do it on their own time. The forums are not part of their job. It is perfectly reasonable for someone who is not paid to interact with often irate or rude customers to opt to not volunteer their free time to do so.

You took a customer service job, and work directly with customers. Developers are not customer service reps any more than are assembly workers at a Nike factory.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

You put it much better than me.
Chris

Realy Chris? You do realise that there are objective smart people reading this thread, and forming an opinion on how Anet views their fans right?

Not only that, but you also do realize what kind of response you validate here, as far as respect goes on the forum, as well as what is ‘acceptable behavior’… And it’s not just that I find your stance here rather offensive… but…

Chris Whiteside.6102:

ToaLux.6478:

Geez, I love all of Chris’s sassy answers—he takes the words right out of my mouth half the time

I have no clue how you guys can slog through all the gunk here to find the constructive posts, but I really do appreciate the simple existence of this thread!

Sorry if they are coming across as sassy. just trying to be honest and a bit more human and less water of a ducks back as many of you have said i should try harder with.

It is actually much less frustrating to just say it like i see it. I hope though that this approach is taken in the spirit it is intended and not in a negative way.I tend to be like this on CDIs.

Chris

ToaLux.6478:

Pff, no! They’re brilliant! Haha, I love reading how bluntly honest they are
Believe me: I certainly do not take them negatively; I also think most others would agree with me. Keep it up!

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Good because i am honestly not trying to be a naughty junior feline.
Chris

In a position where you represent authority you might have to try a little harder, you set the example, set the bar of ‘the acceptable’. It comes with the territory, and you need to be aware of it, every time you choose to respond, you will have to weigh your words before you click that [reply] button. You may not be able to change the tune on the forums, but validating it is even worse …

I’ll probably be infracted for this post, heck I may even be banned for a while, but there was nothing in that guys post that disserved that response, nor your validation of it. He was basically saying, “if you provide a service you will need to listen to your customers or you will go out of a job + shouldn’t higher ups be held to a higher standard?”. And he dang right, regardless of whether ‘you’ put time in here, that is your choice. But when you do, please realize from what position you do so, and with which consequences/rule-set that comes… you make your own community, set the standards, and get the one you disserve…

you reached the limit of …

And actually, whether or not you actually do have ‘any’ choice in life is a matter of philosophical debate. Sure there are a million things to eat, but you got to eat, and you will choose upon what’s available to you and what your taste buds tell you to, do you have any agency over that? The success of fast food restaurants basically shows that your the level of agency hardly has anything to do with your ‘free will’ to choose… but like I said, that’s a whole different discussion…

@Drax, few posts back, if you do a vote like that, then you actually remove all agency for players in replay? it only adds a way to vote for in which order things in the past went… so you can play it ‘right’ and without any agency the next time? doesn’t seem to solve it…

@Torsailr, you mention playing all the options, yet you desire agency… if one thing, agency is foregoing some option by having the choice to do the other thing. Now I can see how your post may be a response to Draxynnic, but then please do consider a @Draxynnic next time… Because I too suggested a way to add agency in the game, mostly for the replay, that also wouldn’t allow you to play all option, On 1 character, but would add agency in the game, by having you actually choose your course of action from all the options presented.

@Tobias, while that works in a small group, and where you can take your deviations on to another play night. I do hope you see that once you make say 3 paths to unfold, and you add another 2 to each, etc, then b4 long you created one big nightmare! It would also spell doom for any lore tracking players, ‘who died’ ? well depends on who you ask…

The thing that does work (somewhat) isn’t so much cheating, it is scamming… In a sense you are likely also very familiar with. “You come to a split in the road, on leads off into the rugged mountains, the other into a dark forest, where do you go?” … where the rugged mountains lead to a fight with a bunch of Trolls, and finding an armour with +1 defence vs undead. The road into the forest leads to a fight with agry forest elves, and finding a short sword with a +1 attack vs. undead (though arguably, the weapon find might have a little impact on a later fight ->) both roads end in a village where you want your group to get into this hilarious bar fight you come up with…

See, you haven’t really given them a choice, the roads both led to the same place, but, you did give them a different experience along the road… although arguably you could even make the item found the same, seeing they are no longer going ‘the other way’ they will never find out what they would have found there… This last bit doesn’t work in games, because a gazillion people will make the other choice, and compare results in the end… There is a way around this though, by splitting up the DE2.0 group and having a choice yourself, to then at the end have them come back together and discuss results. Which would be the results of what everybody experiences if they choose the other group…

Still though, in effect, it is not true agency as to have an impact on the story, it just gives you the choice as to which part of the story you experience, so that it becomes ‘your story’.

- On votes
General votes work, but it’s hard to come up with things to vote about through actions, and I personally think the result should either be hidden (so it’s basically a mere tool for the writers to take certain actions from the players into account on how the story is going to unfold.) OR, in case some indication is given, it should be unclear as to what it is used for (f/e a counter for the types of foes slain).

This type of agency I also covered, and I think it could be a nice way to have the community as a whole drive the story. But seeing how development takes up its time, such things should either be trivial (aka. there are 3 groups of foes, you count which gets slain the most, those foes are considered ‘defeated’, and only 2 types of foes are in the rest of the story).

Or they should be implemented as part of a ‘cliff hanger’ type deal, where the results are able to be taken into account for the next LS story bit. This becomes easier with clever writing and building of content, if you can conceive the ‘podium’ before hand, and actually already write ‘the plays’ that might take place on it based upon the outcome; you can consolidate the work needed to be done, before hand, and have ‘the play’ based upon the outcome of the cliff hanger vote be implemented in it.

end statement
I would love to see all of these used at some point or another, seeing they enrich the story and make it a tad more ‘your own’. Even though trivial choices seem somewhat lame in hindsight, if you are honest about it it’s the only choice we have realy… Heck even life is just a string of trivial choices, as there is nothing you can do to escape death, the only certainty, as once you are born, you are bound to die, and all the stuff in the middle, is just ways to keep you occupied until that day comes…

Not saying it’s not worth it, or that choices in life don’t come with consequences (something a lot harder to achieve in a game world), or aren’t meaningful … that’s just it, they are. Thus having trivial choices in a game’s story can be just as interesting and meaningful, and while hard could most certainly come with consequences.

@Emendez & OP, going to a PvP centered server doesn’t solve his problem, it makes it worse! … OP needs to be on one the servers Emendez faces, so they can both have a good fight … or simply put, if all PvP-people go to a PvP centric server, they will have nobody to fight!

@Filovirus, not everybody was a part of the CDI, or ‘previous’ solutions, and so far the only thing I heard as to why this is a ‘bad’ solution is that maybe it would create a toxic atmosphere where people want others to leave… which:
1. Is dang hard, ‘you leave!’
2. Which hurts you in the long run, as they won’t be around when you do need them.
3. Which may well balance things out, as people move to an unwelcome full server to a server that welcomes them when ever they show up…

So what else is there? Other then perhaps the realisation that most WvW players do not want it solved? that they are just fine with uneven odds and easy coverage wins?

Have you tried Roleplaying ? It’s basically a way of gaming where you just make up your own stuff … the limit to the amount of content is about limited to your imagination (for as long as you don’t get too serious about it and find yourself spotted by the RP-police; who would have thought that making up your own kitten came with rules!) … Or Maybe try some of the activities? … OR Try and find, and play every dynamic event in the game with green gear… ?

But yeah, no gaming company can put out content at the speed you want to consume it, esp. if 80% of your life consists of playing that one game…

Hmm only 3 people have a thought about this solution? makes me wonder if people are really that interested in solving it?

Just to put it in perspective, I pretty much ‘really disliked’ the Mursaat, not only was their agonizing tough a need to get any bit of armour you got ‘infused’, they also turned out to be ‘the good guys’, while we the player were unable to have any agency over our own choices to be the misled fool (twice)… and their behaviour filled with arrogance for being right, made that even worse… now I personally can’t stand arrogance, so you can hopefully see that having to conclude that their arrogance is from the stand point they were doing ‘the good thing’, while us the heroes were being donkeys, and having no choice over being so, further fuelled my dislike for them…

To then on a deeper level realize that ‘a selective extermination program’ was somewhat justified in a ‘rights of the few, vs. disaster for the many’ somewhat sick plot twist, furthered my dislike, as it goes against almost anything I stand for.

It is worse enough that there are already many players that view the Asura as the creators of all things Mursaat. And while I would love these players to see that the Asura were barely coming out of the stone age when they surfaced in GW1, I would rather tell them myself for as many times as is needed, than having to deal with the Mursaat again… even though arguably, due to all of the above they are a really good antagonist, but the popularity of them entirely goes ‘above my head’.

I fully agree, actually ever since the shop opened and I looked at the gem prizes my thoughts were ‘rediculous’ prices for a “make once → reproduce endlessly”-item. And as a result I have not spend 1$ on gems (seeing I bought an artbook, and all 3 books, I already paid 2x the game’s price, so ‘sofar’ I think I supported Anet enough); I did exchange some gold for gems and bought some bank slots… which with all these ‘one time items’ and ‘stacks upon stacks of high level crafting materials’ are pretty much a need to stay sane..

It’s also not ‘just’ how high prices are, but next to that the relative pricing. aka. 2 bag slots on one character = one character slot (which nets you 4 bag slots for a mule). That ratio is so skewed in places that it’s off putting to take part in it, and seeing money talks, I refuse to spend my money there…

end statement, I am glad you brought this up, seeing silently not spending your money actually conveys very little, this at least gave me the opportunity to (again, as I think I done it before) express exactly why I refuse to spend any money there…

Seeing the size of this thread I hope nobody will hold it against me that I didn’t read everything… I do hope that Anet-dev’s will take the time to gradually work their way through this thread, and if they do so, want to hereby thank them an applaud them for doing so… Having said this I will put up my thoughts regarding the Trait system…

Having read various thread in the ‘profession balance’ section on more complicated build options, as wel as the need for entry level play, and ‘noob toob’ equivalent strategies. I would like to suggest that the Trait system is used to achieve this…

But, I think that could only be achieved if the trait system is able to ‘exclude’ certain options at certain trait levels, while enabling certain play style options at higher levels. To achieve this I personally think that progressing in the trait system should disable the trait option on the lower levels in the tree that progress is being assigned.

This would make it possible to have ‘noob toob’ and ‘entry level rewarding’ traits in the lower levels of each trait tree, while making intermediate and high level options open up as one progresses in a tree, and by doing so ‘disabling’ the ‘noob toobs’ and ‘entry level rewarding’ play styles, for more high risk / high reward strategies.

It would also prevent being able to stack certain complementary traits, as the lower level traits blank out. Yet each player could eventually build a character at the level they are comfortable with…

With fixed I mean screwed to the ground in a certain location (being capitals, and all order headquarters) … and ‘no’ the ley line network would not have to work through ‘a direct’ connection, that’s the thing in a network, you can transfer in nodes (ley line hubs) to another ley line in order to reach your destination.

So, as an example, say a ley line moves from Orr along the coast passing through LA, and onto Divinity. Another ley line moves from Dry Top through LA, up north to the Central TF, chamber. Another moves from the north through the central transfer chamber down to Ebonhawk… So to get from Divinity to Ebon Hawk, you would go from Divinity to LA on one Ley Lines, there pass over to another ley line going to CTC, there you pass onto another Ley Line down to Ebonhawk.

- on the door…
Hmm, ok, I get what you are saying, there is a portal there (which may as well be called Vulcano Portal) which is ‘closed’ by putting a door in front of it, and it’s that door that is called the door of Komalie. Hmm, guess then that could be so as well, I always saw the portal as being called ‘the door of komalie’ and the soul batteries the means to keep it closed, aka, the lock…

Either way though, I can see why ‘in your train of thought’ it would be a reason to skip that location from the network. Given of course that this portal activity has nothing to do with ley lines… which to me isn’t as clear as it is to you

@Chris, a couple of pointers from a more general view, perhaps parse this with the people involved as needed…

1. Personally I do not fully understand why ‘you’ (as in Anet) continue to expand the location with which you have to deal with. In this sense I mostly mean Reddit, but there are numerous other outlets as well, personally I just gave up on them and focus on THIS site, as this is the official GW2 forum from Anet…

Seeing I been with GW for a while now, I also thought this particular forum was to solve the same problem that ‘we’ had before. There were so many fan sites that it was dang hard to address each and every one, and give appropriate attention to them (leaving out my personal opinion on this choice), but as this forum saw light, we have seen ANet further diversify it’s outlets, in doing so creating even more locations to divert attention too.

Long story short, don’t spread yourself to thin, or you set yourself up for failure…

2. As far as recent ‘future questions’ from the community goes. From my perspective the problem isn’t just communication (the longing for communication is actually a side effect)… to what?

Well, MMO’s through history have had a certain amount of ‘rice and beans’ added to them on a somewhat regular basis. The ‘staple food’ for any MMO player… What (I think) a lot of the player base worry about, is that they do not (or hardly) see any of these ‘staples’ provided in the 2y that GW2 has been around… Leading to questions as to ‘wth’ you are actually doing…

Now as I responded to this concern in a thread it dawned on me that Anet has done a lot in the past 2y, yet, a lot of these things were either of ‘hordeuvre’ level (temporary content), or more general Quality of Life (mega servers, wardrobe) kind of upgrades. Non of them provide ‘a substantial meal’, and they do not resemble the ‘kind of food’ the MMORPG community is used to being fed… (mainly being: new skills to play with, new professions, new races, new areas to farm, new stories to play at leisure, etc).

Now sure hordeuvres can be mighty nice and be like a cherry on the cake, but how ever nice ‘cherries with whip cream’ are, people still feel that progress is missing because, well, in essence ‘there is no cake!’. I hope you get the analogies I used in this bit above here, and through that I hope you understand why people are getting a bit agitated and question progress in GW2.

3. While I do not want to get ahead on a CDI, also because personally I do not think that communication is the problem, it feels more like the ‘speaking through actions’ is what has most people up in arms (but I digress and have just put all that in 2).

Seeing that a CDI is a mutual effort I think picking topic mutually would benefit us enormously. Make a list of say 10 things Anet would like to talk about, and have us vote. Use the line up of say the first 3 to cover the next 3 CDI’s and repeat with new stuff. Or have us give options, you pick 10, we vote, and first 3 be first 3 CDIs, then do get a new set of 10.

I have watched 3 episodes so far and I find it unlikely I will watch more, why:
1. To much self back patting. I understand that you want a positive vibe going from that show, but not everything is amazing and super and holy kitten, etc…
2. Nothing really new is conveyed, if you played the actual LS then there is nothing new, If you haven’t played it, it’s just a show filled with spoilers…

What would I watch? And how could this show be improved?
1. I would most definitely watch this show if it was about the actual PoI’s in the game. Those that have been there since the start, and from which I know only a few as to ‘why’ they are a PoI.

Adding discussion on just one existing PoI, with the creators in the zone it is in, with lore background on why it is a PoI, with perhaps some pointers to Dynamic Events spawning close to, or being related to the PoI. That could hold my attention… It might even be interesting enough to also discuss the new LS for part of the show. Say:

1. Discuss living story with creators of part of it (10min), pick a different angle every show (so, writers, content designers, modellers, texture, music, sound, creatures) – cycling through this could make every ‘department’ get a spot light during the whole of the LS-episodes.
2. Discuss an actual PoI in the game somewhere (15min), why is it a PoI, lore behind it, Dynamic events related, or nearby. Pick a different angle similar to 1. for each PoI.
3. Put some attention on the Community (5 min) by showing Art. Perhaps also focus on Poetry, Short Story, Music?

That would make the whole show become a bit more ‘meaty’ and actually give developers something to talk about, and more importantly shed some light on the lore behind PoI’s. If the whole ‘the new LS is just awesome, pat our backs, but we can’t say anything more’ would just last for 10min and afterwards we would get some actual insight where things CAN be shared (or perhaps, not, but now with a means for the community to dig into a mystery), that would be worth watching it for me, and I could hopefully deal with the back-patting.

The biggest problem with ‘agency’ is that a story still has to unfold in a certain way to make sense, seeing this is not a single player game … The next biggest problem is that it is very hard to spot where Agency is applied, because you will experience the story in the way you choose to let it unfold, which then becomes the way it unfolds, finding out that there are other ways the story ‘could have’ unfolded only comes when you replay it and make different choices!

I will agree with the OP though, it would be really nice to see some sort of agency in the story. Dialogue options would be a nice first step, and make use of something already in the game, they hardly change the direction of the story, but they can at least give a bit of a different flavour. I will say that I liked how Anet took criticism to heart and included some race/profession differences in story line dialogue, not only to avoid really weird incidences (f/e the Pale tree calling all PC’s her children)… But this is still very much a base level ‘spice solution’ to agency (aka. a different spice to the story doesn’t give the player any agency, it just uses different spices for the same dish…)

To those here that think coming up with Agency schematics is something simple, please do think again, ‘but’, it surely isn’t impossible, even in a story that has to unfold the same every time. If you have some time and are interested in Agency in a Game world, please do read this thread https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/livingworld/lwd/Implementing-Storytelling/first#post4225443 feel free to add any general Agency Mechanics if you happen to think of some…

As far as my advice to the writers goes, please consider pressing agency in the replay of the story… With that I mean that it should be possible for us all to play through all the story options in the LS, after which the actual replay (story log) reassembles these story options into a choice model. F/e, in the convince the race leaders, the LS could have taken us to all of them, while the story log gives us 1 set path (your own race) and 2 choices for other races, for a total of 3 instances where our input matter, the other 2 are just ‘given outcomes’. That way at least for those that play the story later, or those that play it on alts, get the closest thing to agency possible in how a story has to unfold in a multiplayer setting…

- On Zhaitan shards, hmk, seeing I’m non English native I didn’t know ‘shard’ in the meaning you pointed out. While I do know shard can be ‘a piece’, it seems to generally (in GW2) be used for a shard as in ‘a pointy bit of crystalline material’. But with that explanation you pointed out, there isn’t really anything to definitively say so in regards to the Shards of Zhaitan … Guess one can learn something new just about every day…

- On Waypoints/ley lines
That quoted line doesn’t say that they are ‘powered by’, but merely that they function better. Basically like I argued, it could mean that they use the ley lines to move matter over distance, and thus ‘function better’ when they are nearer to a ley line.

While I can see how that line from ‘recalibrating ley lines’ can be read as ‘using’ = ‘powered by’. In the actual story instance she (Taimi) explains how her invention works, the way points are recalibrated to use a lower frequency to operate, so that the way points do not agitate the ley lines network as much, and thus don’t stand out (or draw attention) so much to Mordremoth.

There is a strong analogy with how Radio waves function, be it at short wave (high frequency) and long wave (low frequency) but both are used to transfer sound over distance… This may also be why I myself think that the ley lines are used to transfer matter over distance, similar to how radio uses radio waves to transfer sound over distance, with the obvious difference that Radio uses the air, while Way Points use the Ley Lines as a medium… so what her calibration device did was to set the way points using a different frequency (say from ultra short to medium wave lengths) while maintaining operational parameters.

That the actual quest log doesn’t reflect this detail and uses the words ‘uses less ley line energy’, to me is more of a reflection of how work is divided up inside Anet, and how details in communication can make a big difference! To me though, the actual course of events and in-game dialog, have a precedence over anything mention in a quest log…

Not saying that your stance on it is impossible or flawed, just that there are more ways to look at this, and that I see no reason (yet) to assume your stance is the only correct way…

- On Asuran gates.
Ok, so there are 11 fixed locations for working Asuran gates, most of which are in capitals, and even though there may be more in said capital, I consider them to be on the same ley line ‘node’. Unless of course you know of more Asuran gates then the ones I mapped out, in which case I would love to know about them…

- On door of Komalie
You may want to differ in what powers the portal and what keeps it shut ?!!? … from what I got from that lore from GW1 is that the Door of Komalie was an actual naturally occurring portal (or possibly one that Abaddon tried to open from the realm of torment, similar to the portals used to release the Titans), and the soul batteries were used to keep that door shut…

Now true, if it turns out that portals can just be made to go everywhere, and do not specifically need ley lines to function or an end portal (which from my point of view isn’t whats being conveyed in GW2, although way points and portals may still be different from each other), then indeed, there is no distinct reason to assume that the Door of Komalie was using ley line energy to be formed… it was keeping it shut that used the bloodstone/soul combination though…

Well at first, it would be dang hard to make people leave, the most basic answer is ‘well if you think it’s so important, YOU leave’ … and really, it’s more likely that people will actually switch servers at some point, IF a server has this elite attitude, seeing a lot of WvW is still a numbers game, doesn’t that then weaken the elite server, and strengthen another.

Second would be, 40/50 is still 80% of the base score (of a wooden structure, given that upgrades are to influence scoring as well). Now it gets more ‘interesting’ to pester people away if it’s like 10 vs 60. But then you would have to get rid of say 40 people to get to a 50% base score, instead of 16%, first of all hardly possible. But 10vs20 is still a bit more fair than 10vs60… You will be able to capture less structures, and it will be easier to recap. Also defending will be easier, as less supply can be carried …

Now sure, I can somewhere see your point, but I doubt that attitude would do ‘any’ good to your server community, and if it would then if anything it balances the fighting more, which is the basic aim of the system…

I would like to add that so far Mordremoth has at least gotten into the minds of 2 sylvari. Canach is a sylvari, and being close to Anise, he would have obviously known of the Summit… He also has the same ‘all means necessary’ attitude that Scarlet seemed to have.

So I rank him high on being a culprit as well…

- On magic.
Where do you get that magic bled from the dragons is ‘colorless’, and not related to the dragons? IS there even ‘raw’ magic in Tyria? In another thread I tried to link all the kinds of magic to all the dragons, quite crudely I will add, and what I was left with was ‘white’ monk aspects of magic, which might well be linked to the centre of the EA-vision (EA – eternal alchemy), and ‘shadow magic’ which happens to mostly link to the UW creatures in GW2. With which I am basically saying that all the ‘magic types’ in GW1 have in some way transferred over into GW2 – and my personal view on the vision is that it is the GW-power chart/wheel, similar to the MtG power chart/wheel.

If you take that view, then all magic has to be of a certain type, because there is no ‘colorless’ magic in that chart. We also do not know if dragons feed only on some type of artefact… Do they eat infused magical artefacts of their own type? or of some opposing type? So really, unless you have some data that makes it clear there is ‘raw’ or ‘colorless’ magic out there, instead of magic always being of one specific type, then please do share… I will say that I find it possible that magic can get ‘flipped’, so basically if zhaitan would ‘eats’ f/e chaos magic, it would turn to ‘undeath magic’, as some sort of balancing mechanism.

Or, perhaps, if you were to combine all magics it would turn into ‘raw’ magic, similar to how light is made up of ‘all colours of light’. Which might be what happens in CoE… And in the Thaumanova reactor, and the reason perhaps it didn’t go well there, only 4 types of magic were combined…

- On ghosts,
Erhm sure, even if you map all the ‘ambient magic’ locations you still do not know how to connect them. If you exclude 3 due to them being linked to an artefact instead of ambient magic, then your whole network changes. And there are 7 location with ghosts in the Orr maps…

- On mesmers,
While we call it ‘chaos’ magic, to me it is of yet unclear if it actually is, though yes, I will say that linking chaos magic to Kralkatorrik, solely on colour alone is incredible weak! Still though, crystals may well be called the highest ‘organised’ structure. And thus Chaos for being the highest ‘unordered’, Crystals are the highest ‘ordered’.

Then again, that would sort of mean that kralki may bleed the opposite of his magic, which would then make for the assumption that all might do so (or at least a couple), for which I haven’t actually found any evidence.

Also, chaos magic, is still one of the classifications of the ‘old schools’, which used/ identified 4 types of magic. Well based upon the difference between thaumanova and CoE, as well as the vision. We may have to conclude that there are at least 6 (possibly 7) types of magic on Tyria. If indeed one of them is ‘chaos’, then it’s still Kralki’s crystal that is one of the highest possible sources for it…

- Tnx for the clarification, I will say again that I really like your angle, and when I continue with my map I am sure to go through all of them and map them accordingly.

- Ok, so I acknowledge that maybe not all things I mapped can be related to ley lines, but that was also part of the reason to map them. Also, I based the map on various things Psynch mentioned, and I mapped them more specifically (in the actual spot on a bigger map) to cross check whether or not picking them made sense… In which case f/e the Reavers seem less likely if you see where they are placed

Second, I mapped various more general ‘big story’ items, or Bosses, just to see if they could be tied in somehow, seeing how Mordremoth is tied in the the Ley Line story, perhaps there was something to conclude from other Dragon activity… f/e if you look at location where Destroyers turn up, and where mordremoth’s vines pass nearby. But like, if I map mordremoth vines, and then destroyers, then not mapping at least the other Champions is a biased action… not mapping Risen can be defended since they are all over the place (though I do intend to at least show on which map_section they are present). All the branded just show up in the brand, and all Jormag corrupted in the shiver peaks (so ‘by assuming at least some knowledge’ on the part of the map observer, they are all mapped…

- I saw I didn’t addres your question ‘why do you say ’zhaitan’ crystals’, well, that is because of the reward for the explorable dungeon. http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shard_of_Zhaitan … and all the other ‘shards’ http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shard being largely crystalline. Now if you check my map I made an icon for them with a ? in them. So it’s more of a ‘hey look it is almost implied through ’shard of zhaitan’, that he turned to crystal (or part of him anyways)‘, just like happened to Glint (although being a minion of the Crystal dragon, does make it possible her’s had another reason).

So some things are from other sources, and they are mapped more specifically to check if or if not, they are related. Other things are mapped (destroyers f/e) to try and present unbiased information, aka. if you map one thing because of X, you should map all things related to X or you are just presenting biased information…

- On portal tech
So ok, there is tech that makes it possible to portal without an end portal (actually, the appearance of the Titans in GW1 pretty much already showed no ‘physical end portal’ was required (as just alluded to me) …

Still though, the waypoints are said to function ‘better’ when near ley lines, and as far as I know functioning of them has nothing to do with ‘powering’ them? (btw. this came from one of your earlier responses) Or at least, it be nice to know where you drew the conclusion that they use ley line power? I only picked up they ‘functioned’ better … aka. the portal has less ‘side effects’, so is more ‘stable’ and offers more ‘frequent portal’ activity. Nothing really alluded me to assume they use ambient magic to ‘power’ them.

Because in that case, what powers the random placed portals? surely they can’t use ley line magic. Because in that case they wouldn’t be random placed. ( though arguably, part of this might be due to picking a certain thing to explain certain ‘things’ in game, that then work on a shallow level to provide an answer, but when looking deeper actually open a whole ‘can a wurms’ the size of those found in 2 locations in Tyria )

Still remains though, the portal tech is old, through waypoints we know that at least some aspect of the whole portal’ing technology works better when close to ley lines, so I still ‘personally’ find that enough to at least include them in preliminary research. You are of the opinion they are not related, well, then that will turn out to be the case as this research moves on… It’s not that like 7 portals will make that much of a difference, when we try and identify which things help and which don’t.

‘->’ and while you argue that some of your ley lines going over portals to the mists (or other excisting portals) was a mere coincidence, seeing you didn’t pick those locations for their portals, but due to high ambient magic. The same ambient magic that makes waypoints function better. One could argue that it may not be such a ‘coincidence’…

- On Thaumanova Creatures,
While I only mapped a couple, mentioned by Psynch, I did map all the possible location for them (also non veteran), for as far as they were mentioned on the Wiki. My intention is to also ‘map’ all the other creatures, for at least the ‘map sections’ they occur in. Not so much to see where they ‘might’ have come from, but to see if the proposed line between crystal caverns and the reactor, at least goes through area’s in which these creatures reside. But as you plotted your map, you must have come to see that it becomes quite tedious, and having mapped what I already did, I sort of need(ed) a break…

Kai.9182:

Ahh by great minds think alike you are talking to about almost every person who has played more than 10+ hours of WvW.

I lol’ed at this, but then…

The issue is instead of encouraging people to join in on WvW you encourage an elitist attitude among players who will verbally abuse others who “are not pulling enough weight”. And the pestering of noobs to "get off [their] map".

say what? please elaborate?

Straegen.2938:

IMO PPT is a symptom of population/coverage not the problem to solve. PPT balancing solutions is sort of like having high blood pressure due to a disease and only treating the blood pressure.

Well the desease is having a WvW format anyways, and removing it isn’t exactly what I would like to see happen? Unless you would have another thought behind what ‘the desease’ is, in which case I would love to hear it…

Johje Holan.4607:

It sounds like it would also encourage two relatively equal, relatively stronger servers to attack each other and not just gang up on the 3rd weaker/less populated server.

If it does that, it would be the best thing to happen to PPT since its inception.

I think similar ideas have been proposed actually. But it always comes down to someone thinking that you’re “punishing” them for playing during “non-prime” time. Which I think is a ridiculous argument but there are a lot of people, including Anet, who think like that.

Well if anything they wouldn’t venture as much by going after the 3rd weaker one, then going after each other. Still, going after the weaker one first would still be the course of action due to point denial being part of it too… but it does make it more likely they will go after each others stuff next, because more points can be scored by going after ‘currently’ equally represented servers.

Don’t really get the ‘punishing’ part, sounds more like a ‘but I don’t want my easy and unfair advantage taken away from me ’reason’’ instead.

Dude, I wasn’t saying ‘ley line!’ … actually, I am trying to be as meticulous as possible and name my maps ‘speculation’ and ‘base_line’ to point out where I make general assumptions based upon correlating occurrences, and the maps where the data is just presented ‘as is’ so that it can be evaluated based upon any other knowledge or data, or used for other people to add their data and/or assumptions…

I’ll refrain from any reaction, besides this one, on the subjective conclusions you draw based upon your frustration.

Just one thing I want to point out, seems you forgot

Furthermore, no ley line over the Crystal Desert portal to the Desolation, or the various other portals throughout the Crystal Desert; nor to the two mursaat portals in the Southern Shiverpeaks, nor Hoelbrak; nor Boreal Station (in Eye of the North). Nor Hrangmer (aka Citadel of Flame), for that matter.

…“in ‘my’ (as in you Konig) opinion”, or if you will, “based upon what I took into account, for my analysis.”

This mainly to point out that while your knowledge on lore is far exceeding the general public, that doesn’t mean that ‘what Konig says is always absolute truth and he is always right’. There are so many unknowns still that it’s really anyone’s guess, hence I think looking at stuff as objective as possible is the best way to look at things, so again I think your hint towards communing skill points is a very interesting angle, As well as some other location in lore that value high on ‘ambient’ magic…

But as we do not know if f/e how far these things are underground has any implication for their ‘strenght’ on the surface, we can’t simply conclude that where there is no ambient magic there are no ley lines. The other way around works though, with a ‘may’ for as far as artefacts come into play! Still a very nice though train.

Another note, Personally, I don’t think the detectors would be any help, seeing that if you take the distance between them, and divide it in halve, to then use this as a radius for every detector, you pretty much cover the whole map. They have the same ‘problem’ as using the waypoints themselves, for as far as us trying to find ley lines. Obviously scarlet had means to pinpoint them based upon the data they provided…

Lastly, I also have a question:
- I saw various points put ‘off map’, where did you get those from? are these from overlaying other maps? (if so do you have a source), are these from fractals? or from GW1?

@Konig, there is no need to lash out, I know you longer than today, and I know your frustration on this matter, and I can relate even… But really, I have no intention or what so ever to be a lightning conductor for your frustration… I am more then happy to discuss things with a certain level of personal respect for each others viewpoints, but driving other people’s opinions in the ground and calling their hard work a chaotic mess, do not form a basis for any respectful discussion… I respect your opinion and put great value on your knowledge, but this thread is supposed to be a fun exercise to see if we could localize ley lines in a mutual effort, not an open invitation for quote wars…

Anyways, I will pick out some points you bring up:
- On waypoints and portals:
We do not know ‘if’ waypoints also need the ley lines to transport matter over distance. Yes, the portals can be re-aligned, but as far as I know, there has to be a portal on the other side as a receiver, meaning that it’s quite possible that this receiver also has to be connected to the same ley line network. Any lack of current evidence doesn’t mean that an assumption is false.

Also, you yourself used ‘portals to other realms’ as an indicator for high ambient magic, while a ‘naturally occurring’ portal (while we do not know if they are, we can’t exactly dig there) to another realm isn’t directly a portal to another place in the same world, it’s still simply a portal to another location in the Mists. Aka, portals are somewhat portals, if you view them as a way to transfer matter through the mist to another location in the mist (which could be within the same realm, or cross realm).

On Mesmer skills, like I said in my opening statement, I can relate to your frustration on this matter, but ‘it is what it is’. Mesmer skills are Mesmer skills, and ley line utilizing portals and/or way points are what they are… from my pov.

- On the creatures in Thaumanova reactor,
if you plot the creatures though, as in where they exist in the open world, I myself agree somewhat with Psynch that it is rather an unlikely coincidence that these lie on roughly the same route that Mordremoth is taking now, and you yourself say this route is the route of a ley line, only you use the cavern system as a hint for it. Now seeing my opening statement, I wont be throwing a “well we know there are tons of underground cavern systems underneath Tyria, so there is no reason to assume Mordremoth has to follow the ley line one”, as that leads this exercise nowhere.

No I think it’s ANet showing us that they had ley lines ‘in thought’ for a long time, and used it to determine which creatures were likely to be ported into the Thaumanova reactor, and now they use the Mordremoth route to further point at it…

- On ghosts,
Yes, the ascalonian ghosts are different from other ghosts, but they ‘were’ caused by an Orrian artefact, and Orr happens to be the location where Zaithan has been bleeding his undeath magic for 9000y prior to humans settling there… so there is a likely connection there.

Again, I can relate to your frustration even more so in relation to the implications for GW1 (I just… I just don’t want to go there, plz, I’m going for a positive vibe here in regards to a ‘community effort’ to figure out ley lines as a fun exercise). But if you were to actually go and map all the ghosts, like I did, and link the ones that can not be directly linked to the foe fire, a specific item, being ‘animal spirits’ or ‘being non human’, you are left with a very specific route going from Orr along side the coast, across LA, splitting off towards Divinity and into Hinterlands.

The only exception are the ghosts in Brisbane, which may or may not be related, seeing it’s impossible to check beyond the map if the actual phenomenon continues.

- On Chaos Magic,
Pointing at chaos magic is all fine ‘but’ from the overall story of magic there has to be a source for this magic. With which I have to point at:
1. During the last rise, all ‘free’ magic was put into the original ‘bloodstone’.
2. Any other magic was consumed by the dragons, and ‘bled out’ during their slumber.
3. Now which source is there for the Chaos magic, aka. which dragon bleeds chaos magic? Or which other source is there for chaos magic?

I had this idea in another thread, but I think it’s snowed under there, and it might be an interesting way to combat the coverage problem we all seem to endure… So please let me know what you think

;tldr : Use a ‘relative’ value for PPT of camp/towers/keeps on enemy territory based upon the % of the current active players on each server, compared to each other.

So this is how that could work:
1. The points for each camp/tower/keep gets increased by x100.
2. At any given time the server tracks the amount of players of each server logged into WvW (this means ALL players of your server, in ALL areas, so an outnumbered buff on one map does not trigger this imbalance saveguard, given you have enough players elsewhere).
3. The server calculates: Server Home / Server Attack * 100% (with a max of 100%, a minimum could also be set)
4. When awarding PPT on the tick, the server uses that % to determine the value of a camp/tower/keep based upon the amount of players on both servers.
‘5’ ‘Home’ = each servers’ corner in EB; each ‘corner’ on opposing BL’s (tower & side camp); Rest of camps/towers/keeps on own server BL.
it might be interesting to put Bay/Hills on home BL belong to ‘home’ of the opposing forces
‘6’ SMC belongs to no one, and always rewards 100%;

add While a bit more complicated to program, this could also be used to set scoring for largely outnumbered servers to >100% or set a base scoring of roughly equal to 75% while outnumbered gives >75upto100% scoring.

ps. Now that scores for points are x100, there is more then enough room to make camps/towers/keep increase in PPT value with consecutive upgrades.

This would make holding your own stuff worth 100% all the time; Holding Enemy Stuff on the tick would reward roughly 100% if the amount of players on each side is equal (or if you are outnumbered). Yet! If you yourself outnumber your opponent, the value of stuff you take on your opposing side is worth considerably less! YET! Taking stuff is still worth it, because now at least your opponent doesn’t get 100% …

Linked to upgrades, this also means that making something paper rewards almost nothing if you outnumber opponent, and upgrading is worth it to squeeze out more points. Would also possibly make it worth holding stuff on the weak 3rd side, while two other servers still have a high attendance.

Personally I think this would entirely change strategy on WvW, it will not reward Coverage imbalance, yet, it does reward a highly defensive strategy if largely outnumbered. The incentive to cap stuff is still there, but now in ‘point denial’ for your opponents, and recapping your stuff is also worth it (you will likely receive more PPT to recap a flipped keep when highly outnumbered, than a attacking force will gain in PPT for holding it, which is the incentive to holding it).

This will keep the options to really take a lead during off hours of your opponents to a minimum, and upgrading opponents stuff is worth it to squeeze out more PPT, and also making it harder for your opponent to recap. I will not deem it to revolutionize WvW, but it seems the most straight forward way to make a slightly more balanced WvW match that relies less heavily on coverage.

disclaimer if this has already been proposed by someone (props to you! great minds think alike and all that jazz), and discussed; I would love to know what thoughts on it were, and I obviously do not know all the things ever suggested on this matter…

Danikat.8537:

Arghore.8340:

@OP, you too might benefit from playing a Sylvari character that cares about her mother getting hurt, and checking up on her after the events took place… you know, visit the actual location in which she is tied, and the whole thing took place, in the actual game world… Umphalus chamber (or something like that) … really do !

Why do you assume I don’t play a sylvari character?

I just went and checked and aside from the fact that the usual random NPCs were back (and strangely indifferent to the Pale Tree’s avatar lying flat on the floor) nothing had changed from the Summit instance. What’s your point?

my point being…

And bear in mind the Pale Tree isn’t her avatar, who we saw collapsed on the floor barely breathing. She’s actually the entire tree that towers over the Grove. It was hard to tell looking up from almost directly below (and of course they won’t have changed the model outside of the instance) but it didn’t look like she had taken so much damage that she couldn’t recover.

‘She’ is still out for the count… and you might be mistaken about what ‘the pale tree’ is, seeing the other sylvari from the other tree didn’t mention anything about ‘a dream’, and seeing how the Pale tree is related to said dream, a Sylvari Tree apparently doesn’t automatically come with a protecting avatar… so you assuming, well the tree looks fine, doesn’t imply that ‘the pale tree’ as in how we all refer to it as a living thing ‘is fine’, if anything her state now is more of an indication of how well she is…

@OP, you too might benefit from playing a Sylvari character that cares about her mother getting hurt, and checking up on her after the events took place… you know, visit the actual location in which she is tied, and the whole thing took place, in the actual game world… Umphalus chamber (or something like that) … really do !

@Greyhound, you apparently didn’t go to the Umpalumpa chamber after that whole ordeal to check up on the Avatar… guess that is more of a Sylvari character thing to do … but you might still want to do so, you know, just to check if she is ‘ok’

@OP, due to their obvious presence they were the obvious candidates, sort of like the ones you suspect most because they are highlighted. I personally suspect that duo of Quaggans they were behaving way to non-suspicious and lets face it, they were present at a lot of the events as well! Always playing the innocent bystanders… yeah right! … and they obviously know of the Inquest involvement in all of this, as they were amazingly quite as those Asura passed by…

@Durzlla, flies are not a playable race atm

Reaction to your second post, right up on this page, I would like to refer to the ‘speculation’ ones I made, there are various lines (that you drew) that show a high correlation with ones that I did, mainly the ones related to ghosts appearing. Those do extend further up north though, perhaps giving you that extra line crossing LA, and connecting Divinity’s reach to the network, which at that point connects all known portals to what you drew

ps. I personally also think that the ‘resting places’ of the dragons will be good places to map. Not so much for them resting ‘on’ the hubs. But for them being one of the main sources for the ‘springs’ of this network. Seeing they are said to ‘bleed magic’ into the world while they sleep, it would make sense for that magic to start in a puddle, to then find the path of least resistance and form small streams, to then bundle into rivers, and feed the actual Ley Line system of Tyria… This is why I also think that there are specific effects that might well be related to each dragon, that give a tell as to which ‘river’ they are part of as they relate to each dragon. This is why f/e the ‘human ghost’ appearances seem to have a decent correlation with originating in Orr, flowing north, as being a river fuelled by Zhaitan. Which in turn might also explain the effect of the Foe Fire as it is related to an Orrian Artefact…

In the same way, while not directly linked to the crystals that Kralkatorrik produces, the effects that happen in the Reactor, and all along the line that Mordi seems to somewhat follow, do strike as an effect that has a ‘kralki’ feel to it somehow. Well that would make sense if the ‘ley lines’ that these effects take place on, would be related to where Kralki rested, and how his magic bled into the world…

While I am to tired atm to actively discuss this, I will say that the waypoints have been directly related to the ley lines by the whole story, the portals pretty much function the same way, as far as teleporting goes, but are based on a much older technology (aka. they were around in EotN times, and even than they were already ‘old’), so I find it fairly safe to assume they would be even more in need of ley line support to function…

But whether or not they based on fact wasn’t the real reason to include them, it was that they are a likely candidate, similar to ghosts, or the identifiable creatures spawning in the reactor, or w/e. To see if they correspond to anything that could be called a ley line…

Anything realy, other than actual waypoints, because, well your map shows pretty clearly why using actual waypoints doesn’t help one bit…

Yet, I will say that your viewpoint on the matter does show another likely candidate to actually plot. Mainly those communing skill points. As these are things more ‘spread out’ and not as common and all present as way points…

ps. like, I included almost all the work of Psynch, so that it can be checked on whether or not it makes sense. Now f/e the reavers, they seem to only have a strong correlation with places related to the UW and a few portals, similar to the steam creatures. Now those in turn may be related to portals, which may be related to ley lines (or hubs). Yet, the highest correlation by far is ‘the underworld’, until we actually get more… This I think can only be concluded after mapping them…

Similar with the whole crystal thing, while I first linked chaos magic with Kralkatorrik, after mapping the places with crystals, and checking where the reactor crystals came from, it had nothing to do with ‘the brand’ at all… yet, the crystals themselves may well be related to the dragons, as Glint’s body turned to crystals, Zhaitans ‘blood’ did, and kralki basically makes crystals… so, is the crystal cavern location a place where ‘somebody’ gathered up the remains of all dragons from the previous awakening? and did somebody do somewhat of the same in that other place? What about other crystal remains, did a champion of the dragon die there?

So far I am not about to dismiss the portals, simply because there aren’t that many, and while the whole ley line / waypoint thing can indeed be called a bit silly, the correlation between waypoints and portals is actually quite high, esp. for their functionality as far as moving matter over distance goes… and it’s not I were to suggest that they are all directly connected, but I wouldn’t be amazed if it turned out they are all on some ley line and are connected through the hubs. Not ‘fueling’ the portals, but using the ley lines as a medium to transport matter from one place to another.

So I since we know so little I basically think that mapping any ‘non Omni present’ things that might be related to ley lines a good way to see if they were to make sense, and if not dismiss them based on the total emerging picture. Hence the skill points make a very good candidate… but if you could argue a decently strong case for moths to be drawn to ley lines, like they are to candles IRL, then I would argue to map them and see if they ‘shed some light’ on the situation … hope you get my p.o.v. on this matter

Sounds a lot like an internet service provider or internet routing issue, instead of the game. Esp, if it’s a whole bunch of players at the same time. Let’s say some hacker does a DOS on one of the servers that these players happen to get routed through, or some maintenance guy does a reset, that would likely cause massive lag and loss of connectivity, but that is not ‘due to the game’ but due to a disruption of the route to the game server…

I dunno, guess it’s helpful if you don’t have any ele’s on your side, or rather, was it needed to make their job any easier? … guess it can help in thwarting siege locations outside of keeps, but without repair costs a few suicide runs seem to do the trick more permanently?

while I am reluctant to mingle myself into this discussion, after reading all of it I do want to make a remark to the OP… you wanted an open discussion about this, yet the moment people state they ‘helped people transfer’ and are ok with that (from both those that helped as those that got help), you point a finger at them for ruining the competitive nature of WvW… from my still objective viewpoint that doesn’t sound at all like someone that wants an open discussion? you seem to be fishing to get people to admit they spend gold to help players transfer so you can point a finger at them for something you yourself deem unhealthy to the gaming format…

Now you may not have intended that, and been triggered by some ‘somewhat’ trolling posts, yet your response is still there numerous times, actually fueling others to call you out on your pre-position on the subject, and somewhat rightfully so… (the way in which they do it… well I guess this is still the internet…)

So is it bad or is it good, well it is the reality and you have to deal with it in your own way, and as a server community. If the guilds that leave are happy where they end up, that is great, the other option is for them to find another game, which would hurt the format even more… if the guilds helping are strengthening up because of it, and can thus better compete, that is also helpful to competition, in their tier at least…

So where does it hurt and does it? While I do not know if guilds from my server (SOR) ‘got help’ from other servers, I can say that it hurts to see any group of players go, except for maybe the biggest trolls and anti-social players, but while they may not have ‘mingled’ well with ‘your’ server and thus reacted in a certain way. It says nothing about how they will react in a different environment… In the end we are all gamers, playing the same game, so I personally hope they are having fun and making friends and enjoying themselves…

Sure we as a server may have tumbled, and as a result we lost even more guilds… for myself I feel our server simply got better and the community strengthened through it. All of a sudden losses were the norm (on our way down) and we got to realize what matters most, which is enjoying the game and each other. Without that nobody wants to put their best leg forward, which ultimately means that nobody wins, and from there on out it’s just a downward spiral.

Still ‘you know’ at the bottom of that spiral are the people with a spine, people that are tolerant and tolerable, that see beyond personal gripes and personal gain and that give room to one another to reach a common goal. I personally think we are on our way back up as the new status quo and the dust settles. So really, it is what it is… and you have to deal with that both personally as well as a community as a whole…

The only thing I still do not get entirely, but that must be a human thing… as we morn over our losses and somewhat point at our opponents for having bigger blobs or better coverage… we seem to rejoice stomping those that have smaller blobs and less coverage… which would likely only mean that these servers are now pointing at our bigger blobs and better coverage… maybe that whole ’don’t do to others what you dislike being done to you’ mentality has nothing to do with anything remotely related to competition… but for what it’s worth, if you find yourself being stomped by (SOR) do remember that there is at least someone on that server feeling for you…

peace out. Arghore [EGC] – EasyGoingClan

Well, personally I do not mind if they use it to take some gold out of PvE players that farm to much, though it would have been nicer if they were to use actual PvE things for that… Seeing Anet can not keep their economy in check, and even though they personally might not have wanted to, but the players have made it into a big farm fest and you can’t make a decent build for a lvl80 without having 100g just for the runes alone … Taking gold out of the community might increase the buying power of the more sane players, or those that flock their gold on upgrades so the farmers can have their stat increases in PvE. Though likely it doesn’t … they will just flip some more and farm a tad harder…

But seeing there is the ‘join squad’ option, I would like to point out that even though it would be a nice feature to have in WvW, I hope not to see these things in WvW, if only to make a statement…

I actually agree with the OP, but only for the latter part, see, good content and rewards actually take into account that there are different kinds of players that need different approaches… How this should have been done:

1. Basically the first step was pretty cool, unlocking these items in various locations, and putting in some extra time.
2. The crafting for the first stage (aka. the pot) should have been a level 100 crafting effort.
3. Combining the items and the pot should have given stage 1 of the back piece, unlock said skin.
4. The next stage would be to ‘raise’ the thing, involving food at say 200 crafting.
5. The next stage would involve some more items, and some 300 crafting items
6. etc… you get the gist i’m sure…

So now you have an item that needs some questing, that can be done by anyone, and some basic crafting, easily attainable by anyone; thus everybody gets an easy nice skin as part of the LS. Then after that, people can work on the item in their own time, while already enjoying their backpack…

Working on something isn’t the problem, its that for some (crafting heavy players) this was an instant reward with minor time gating, while for many others, it is a long term project with absolutely no way to join in on the enjoyment of a new back pack item… That exclusion from the get go makes it a horrible designed reward, and if you look at a lot of the comments you can see exactly why it is… those snarky responses are not from people that have one lvl400 crafting profession, but from those who just had to farm / buy a bunch of firefox clusters and assemble the thing, and now pretend they had to put in all that work and how its ‘exclusive’… bs! …

it’s just a badly designed reward to put in a LS, or perhaps more accurate would be a well designed one but poorly executed…

Vayne.8563:

Arghore.8340:

saalle.4623:

Zackie.8923:

maybe we grew up

That is accurate.I think we are just growing up and are less interested in games.When i was a kid i played lots of games (not just MMO’s).I dont play much any kind of game now.I still like to play them but its not same feeling as before.Eventually we will get to some age where we wont feel like playing games at all and we will quit.Its natural thing to happen.

I happen to play with some 60+ friends all the time, perhaps it’s cuz they retired, but really. There is no ‘natural thing’ to happen, it’s just some sort of peer pressure you either give into or not! …

I’m 52 now. I’ll be playing games till my arms fall off.

I’m nowhere near that (some friend are though), but just pointing out to the teens that just because you do something as ‘a kid’, growing up doesn’t mean you stop doing the things you did as a kid. Heck, the most important things in live you will just keep doing, like breathing, drinking, eating, sleeping and obviously gaming ^^

This is actually supported by an analysis of the actual Pale Tree vision!

What about this explanation of the vision:
– Anet has had enough of Tyria for now, they created a beautiful forest (land) but it met mostly cold and harsh response. (this is the beginning with the pale tree going to a cold and harsh winter scene.)
– So they decided to just blow things up (the rays of light – LA was just the start), and from that destruction take the good things (the glowing ‘heart’ and whole new cities rising), and take that into and beyond the Crystal Desert.
– Then to make sure the community doesn’t spread out like it did in GW1, with the release of a whole new continent. They will have Mordremoth consume the whole of Tyria, everything in front (or ‘before’ as in time) the Crystal Desert Episode will be engulfed in Mordremoth’s vines…
- We will not be victorious over Mordremoth when we enter that last area of land, instead we will trigger the full rage of him. We will be engulfed and driven back, Rata Sum will fall, The Grove will fall, Devinities reach will fall, The ruins of Lions arch will fall, The order head quarters will fall, Hoelbrak will fall, The Black Citadel will fall, And finally we will Enter the Crystal Desert Through Ebon Hawk, And it too will fall…

Players can take their racial characters with them and play the new Elona Chapter, but apart from a few races, no new ones can be made. This is most noticeable for the Sylvari and Possibly the Norn, instead there will be (a) new Race(s) introduced. And Tyria will be nothing more than ‘ancient history’, eaten up by Mordremoth. And we will be playing a New Chapter in which Anet can take all the lessons learned and implement them in a New part of the game…

The end of Tyria, onwards into the land of the Golden Sun…

saalle.4623:

Zackie.8923:

maybe we grew up

That is accurate.I think we are just growing up and are less interested in games.When i was a kid i played lots of games (not just MMO’s).I dont play much any kind of game now.I still like to play them but its not same feeling as before.Eventually we will get to some age where we wont feel like playing games at all and we will quit.Its natural thing to happen.

I happen to play with some 60+ friends all the time, perhaps it’s cuz they retired, but really. There is no ‘natural thing’ to happen, it’s just some sort of peer pressure you either give into or not! …

I this trending on Twitter already ?

Also, if you build an AC somewhere decently close to the door, you can simply target locations behind the door, through the little slit above every door… no wide monitor or zoom hack required…

I really hope that I will NOT see any other colour commander tag than BLUE in the entirety of WvW… please all servers instruct your players to use the /join squad functionality that is already build in. Do NOT BUY a coloured tag, instruct all your guilds to NOT BUY them. Buying this tag will only ensure that more features in the game will be accompanied by these kinds of silly things.

Void any in depth and extensive changes, and the obvious bug & exploit fixes:

1. It would be really nice if they could simply retexture the existing BL maps, to say 4 season versions of it. And rotate these every 2 weeks or so. Simply having a differently looking map every two weeks would already do a lot.

2. The EotM supplies should come with a +5 buff to them, right now they are no better than any other supply depot, and no real reason to go and grab some. With a +5 buff I can see the Citadel and arrival of the supplies a thing that teams look forward to.

3. Anet should decide the number of players they find viable to taking camps, currently that number is 1 player given you stack somewhere appropriate. I personally think that a camp should give a 3 man team a hard time, esp. if the camp is fully upgraded. This means that the guards should have an appropriate strength…

4. Would it be to much to ask for arena net to evaluate the professions in regards to their WvW contributions, and perhaps increase the usefulness of some of the professions? It wouldn’t hurt to add some utility skills to all of the professions by now, or even a new weapon (just ‘you know’ in general) this might be a great opportunity to have a few designed specifically for WvW.

5. It would be really nice if there would be a reward for escorting yak’s again, but make it incredible minimum, ‘or’, make it an ‘escort X yaks’ for minimal reward Y.

6. It would be nice if there could be a reward for scouting keeps, possibly combined by talking to guards on the outer walls in various locations. Obviously there should be some sort of ‘bot-protection’ incorporated. Possibly 3 set responses, that alternate randomly in the location they are presented in the response window, so that a bot wouldn’t press the right one due to a ‘click coordinate’ thing. Something like:

When you get to this killable and res-able guard on the outer wall of your keep, in location 1: <press F>
Hey there <player name>, you here scouting too?
> Yes, can’t have enough eyes out on the walls with all this enemy activity around.
> Nah, i’m just enjoying the view.
> Nopes, I’m just here to bring you some coffee.

Then as you talk to any of these guards, and hit the ‘yes’, a personal ‘event’ would pop up, directing you to talk to ‘all’ the guards to tell them you are also scouting. Failing to press ‘yes’ in all 5-7 locations would fail the event, clicking ‘yes’ in all locations would reward you minimally, and set an internal timer for the event to be activated by you again.

7. Guild Claims on any location should expire after 10 min, if there is NO BUFF running! Let the trolls work for their trolling… and don’t punish active players for the ‘forgetfulness’ of other guilds and their members.

8. Quite possibly the ‘PPT’ should factor in the amount of players from each server in WvW at the time (for the entirety of the true WvW – so all BL’s and EB). So that, taking and holding stuff from largely outnumbered servers during night-time (f/e) doesn’t reward the same as taking and holding that same stuff during prime time. While at the same time it becomes more rewarding (PPT wise) to go after the more represented server at the particular time, instead of Karma Training the weak server.

Making WvW more about the actual fighting and holding stuff, than it being all about having the best coverage/sleep deprived players.

9. All the siege in WvW should likely come with the following skill:
- Repair & Defend: While you channel this skill you repair this siege for 500hp/s, you are invulnerable and all the offensive skills on the siege are disabled during this time, .
cost: 1 supply / s

Which will actually make it possible to hold on to siege during an assault, by playing smart, seeing the supply cap is 20 for a fully traited person and seeing you can’t actually attack, it will make for some more interesting play.

→ Well I guess some of these did actually become a bit more elaborate, I’m fairly sure I could come up with some more, by spending more time on it. But for now this is more then enough.

@Thobek, realy? if you want to bring up something please let it be a valid reason. Waypoints let you just jump from one end of the map to the other! Take that for ‘skipping content’.

@OP, I do hope you intend to keep that list updated, so in the future we can just link to it for any new thread.

Nay:
- They might do something like WoW with flying mounts, or pixelated sparkle poneys for $20,- … really, the bow is already stretching it.
- Blocking NPC’s

Yay:
- They could use animals native to the world of Tyria, and really do something cool with mounts. There couldn’t be horses though, they don’t exist on Tyria, but riding a Yak or Minotaur would be just as cool.
- They could remove all those content skipping waypoints, that make a couple of days worth of content to hunt for location, a couple of hours worth of content, because you can simply ‘flash’ there in an instant. People might actually be tempted to do some Events as they pass bay, where now they don’t even see the events…

There are numerous other areas that can be pointed to where it is clear that Anet takes hints from their player base… The thing that gets us all worked up though, is that there are at least as many (if not more) places where we can point that Anet may not be listening enough! And that there are a lot of things that we think are way over due, or simply do not understand why they do not take ‘a hint’, this is further escalated because by now it is completely unclear where the game is heading… in regards to:

It’s been 2 years and we have not (to hardly) seen:
- More permanent Areas to explore
- More event chains, or expansions to their story
- More skills for professions
- More Weapons for professions
- More Races to play.
- More viable builds (balance)
- Bug fixes
- WvW maps
- PvP maps/modes.
- Guild features
- Quality Deepening of Lore
- and I will leave out all the extras like player housing, sticking to whats already there as part of the game

And from a player point of view it is hardly understandable, we see the list up there as the ‘main meat’ of the game, heck, ‘meat’ is more of a luxury food, the list up there is the ‘Rice & Beans’ of the game. And quite frankly we are ‘starving’ and do not understand why Anet isn’t feeding us properly, while we put in the time and money to have them prepare a proper meal…

So what have we seen in those two years?
- two new areas (- south sun, dry top)
- two new ‘dungeons paths’ (eather blade path, reactor fractal)
- Various ‘one time’ or ‘circumstantial’ areas. (SAB, Queens pavilion, Zepherite Sanctum)
- Various new ‘sub-challenges/games’ as part of pre-mentioned areas or circumstantial events.
- A new world boss and a rework (Wurm, Teq)
- PvP Reward Tracks.
- A whole lot of backpacks.
- Two? new armours.
- A couple new weapon sets.
- Ascended Crafting
- A whole lot of minis, backpacks, Armour pieces (mainly head/shoulder/gloves) and other stuffz in the Shop.

Then we have seen various things that do not necessarily effect us as players, or only marginally (somewhat negative on some fronts):
- Disappearance of Town Clothing for ‘costumes’ (un-understandable how the previous town clothing got to become a tonic, instead of a costume ?!?); the skin unlocks are nice though…
- Mega Servers (while great for some things, the whole ‘my town is my server’ feeling disappeared – which is a great deal for as far as WvW goes.)
- A Karma Train ‘WvW’ map, great for an overflow on high population servers, but drawing people away to ‘karma train’ from less populated servers.
- More ‘ascended’ and ‘circumstantial’ materials than I care to receive.
- A ‘partial’ nerf to ‘Champ Trains’, soon met by alternative routes, changing nothing…
- A steady and extensive increase in inflation, to a point where making any lvl80 build is a huge investment. Making ‘playing the game’ less and less rewarding and increasing the need to ‘Champ train’, ‘Karma farm’, ‘Farm, Farm’ and grind some more, just to keep up.

And obviously we had ‘one time’ content:
- Ancient Karka Queen
- LS1

Well, I guess you can’t say that ANet did nothing for those 2 years! Thing remains though, ‘we’ are starving for our Rice ‘n Beans! sure there were a lot of ’Hordeuvres’ but we are craving for a meal by now !

That OP post is hardly right, and seems to be largely inspired by someone that felt (s)he wasn’t being heard. Personally I think Anet listens to their player base a lot, maybe even to much… Thing is, on most topics even the players base isn’t agreeing, so whether you do one or the other, there will always be people disappointed, and those are generally the people that you will read about on the forums.

Why do I think they listen ‘to much’? Well look at how the balancing seems to be done, I personally feel like the classes that get whined about the most, receive the most nerfs, regardless whether they actually need them (yes f/e Thief, instead of Warrior). And this might be backed by some analytics where they determine that most people play a warrior, so better not kitten them off to much. Thing is though, and this is also the risk of using big number analytics (Read Silhouette a bit above here) the way balance currently is, it is more likely for more people to flock to the Warrior, simply because it is by far one of the strongest well rounded classes. Aka, people are not all of a sudden interested in playing a warrior, ‘no’, people see that this is by far the most rewarding class to play and flock to it… Similar to thieves are said to be, thing is, I play a thief, and I do hope people will flock to it, as it is not that OP class everybody thinks it is! And they will find out soon enough, if they start playing one, but I digress…

Another area in which they listened to their player base ‘to much’ is on the LS front, they did a whole ‘180’ on the approach… Is it better? well that is very subjective, BUT, I will say that after 4 instalments I sort of miss something really BIG happening for all of us to tackle. Yes, having something big every 2 weeks and only 2 weeks was way over the top, I felt entirely burnt out at the end, but that didn’t mean I wouldn’t like doing that kind of content every once a while. LS1 was just way over the top with it, and the story was hard to follow, LS2 is better to follow story wise, but sofar it’s fairly anticlimactic in its MultiPlayer Approach. AKA, they are entire opposites…

And in regards to the ‘Meta Data’ I’m sure their data will say that over 80% of the community played all the LS1 stuff… so why the change? Because of player feedback on the forums… And rightfully so… YET, Less stress full 2 week only BIG events, does not mean, do not do any! :P … it means, Anet please pick your fights, the big stuff is realy nice, but not everything can be this huge deal, with only 2 weeks to do it…

continued on the next post…

I made this list of #2 & #4 skill slot choices for the ranger weapons in another thread, thought it be nice to also post them here in the Ranger Forum. The idea behind it is to give the weapons #2 and #4 slots 3x choices of skills to choose from, so that a player has more choices for their build, either competitively or as a theme choice. Guess some feed back be nice, or just for your enjoyment in regards to what that might look like and offer you as a ranger player.

Ranger Axe
1. Ricochet (dam. bounce 3x)
2. Winters Bite (freeze) / Summer Blaze (fire) / Autumn Rot (poison)
3. Split Blade. (5x bleed)

4. ‘Pull’ + damage / Loose Boon (which could be stabo) + Knock Down / Push Back + Cripple;
5. Whirling Defences. (reflect range, damage nearby)

Warhorn
4. Call o.t Wild (Gain 2 Might, 1 Fury) / ‘Timber Call’ (Gain Protection + Swiftness) / Call of Attention (Gain Aegis and Stability)
5. Hunters Call (Summon Hawks (damage))

Dagger
4. Crippling Talon (throw bleed & cripple), Freezing Talon (throw & Freeze), Tormenting Talon (throw and Torment)
5. Stalker Strike (stab, poison & evade)

Sword
1. Slash+Kick+Pounce
2. Serpent’s Strike (evasion + poison) / Crane’s Strike (block ‘stance’ for 1/2 sec (which is cast time for) damage, if no block then also bleed.) / Crab’s Strike (gain protection, apply vulnerability)
3. Hornet Sting+Monarch’s leap (hit and evade backwards, jump back in)

Torch
4. Scorche Armour (apply torment & vulnerability), Blow Smoke (blind foes in cone, apply confusion), Blow Flame (damage foes in cone).
5. Throw Torch/Bonfire (throw torch to foe and set area on fire, burn foes in it)

Long Bow
1. Long range shot (more damage longer range)
2. Hunters Shot (stealth, pet swiftness) / Guards shot (Protection, pet Fury) / Archers Shot (Aegis & Stability, pet Regeneration).
3. Rapid Fire (fire X arrows consecutively)
4. Point Black Shot (push back) / Weighed Down Arrow (Knock Down + Daze) / Roped Arrow (Pull foe)
5. Barrage (AoE field of arrows)

Short Bow
1. Crossfire (fire arrow, bleed side/back)
2. Poison Volley (5 poison arrows) / Toxic Volley (5 confusing arrows) / Venomous Volley (5 vulnerable arrows).
3. Quick Shot (evade, gain swiftness)
4. Crippling Shot (cripple, pet bleeding) / Knee Shot (torment, pet vulnerability) / Debilitating shot (weakness, pet ‘micro’ fear)
5. Concussion Shot (daze, stun side/back)

Great Sword
1. Slash+Slice+Power Stab.
2. Bear ‘Maul’ (force of bear) / Devourer ‘Lash’ (force of devourer) / Minotaur ‘Charge’ (force of the Minotaur)
3. Swoop (Run + Leap, damage all)
4. Counter attack + Crippling Throw (block, on block cone push + throw to cripple 1) / Counter blow + Blinding Kick stab your sword in the ground and kick it (block, on block knockdown + cone blind) / Counter Bash + Chilling swipe (block, on block Daze + cone chill)
5. Hilt Bash (Damage and Roll back, Stun if behind and roll back, + pet +50% dam on next)

Harper.4173:

@Arghore.8340

Glad to hear my post was helpful to you.

I see how you feel things and I understand your gripes with the game.
I just don’t think much will be changed since it’s making good money.

Well I do hope you got from that, that I fully see your points, and agree with it. Thing is though, I think we can have both, which would make for a better game, and would likely make Anet/NCSoft even more money, especially in the long run.

And I do think it will hurt the game in the long run if they don’t. Because people will learn and as they find out there isn’t much more to learn or to expand, they wonder where the early adopters, early followers and long lasting GW1 players have gone, and they would likely ‘be gone’ to the next and ‘better’ game.

You already see people asking for more of a challenge, the Mordrem difficulty is a direct response to that (though I think most people mean ‘throw up the general difficultly in high level areas’ and ‘tune up the scaling options’ – but hey, it’s a start). And the main gripes with it were where this harder content was making the normal players not able to avoid it. Aka the mordrem hound being in the normal story path, and the Shadow ot Dragon being there all of a sudden throwing all sorts of ‘kitten litter’ at you that one could not be prepared for in any other location in the game. And while I like the challenge I fully agree with the criticism, it’s great if you know it’s coming as some sort of challenge, it’s hardly fun when it’s just thrown at you in the middle of something, while the rest of the game is nothing like it…

It would be like you talking to somebody you knew for 2 years and then just slapping them in the face for no obvious reason, and expecting a normal reaction. No! That’s not how social interaction goes. If anything you announce you will make things more difficult and challenging, you do so by taking on the lvl60-80 area’s, and making the group scaling more steep. You then introduce the harder (now in line with the rest) foes, and quite possibly introduce a dungeon of sorts (or open world event) with them, to then put them (shadow o/t dragon) in some story instance. And I still think the wolf had no business being in there besides a challenge, if it isn’t possible to not have it in there, then put it somewhere in the back, far away from ‘normal play through’… gah, I’m going of a tangent here…

let me get back on track… Same applies to tournament play, now sure, you may see some hotshots go for the money, heck maybe I should try… but even they wont stick around for long after the money’s been had, simply because they lack the challenge… And that challenge can certainly be build in without hurting the herds/droves of people quite happy with a build that can carry them through most of the PvE content and provide a decent challenge in high level areas. At least I think it should be possible, more skills and a more intricate trait system as well as the possible reintroduction of energy would all do the game play a lot of good, with out punishing the pugs… And lets face it, most of those would love more skills, and more customization, more ways to define oneself from some other.

I think the desires of the majority pretty much align with what is needed to make a more intriguing, interesting and possible better game. And retaining players is one of the most important things, because they actually get you word of mouth spreading, which draws in more players. As opposed to people moving onwards to other games, proclaiming how it’s gameplay is so much better than GW2, except for feature X or Y perhaps. Still though, as the gameplay is the meat of the game, how many people will say ‘well hmm, if (s)he says this is better than GW2, let me go and try, and see for myself!’ … no! they will just agree and say they like this new game better than their old one too! because confirmation of the own choice/opinion is what people like better than any objective report (it’s how the media makes it’s money these days)…

Well anyways, I had my time on my soapbox, time for some WvW… ill check back and let some others comment.

@OP, and the rest, do realize that Caveats seem to better fit certain professions than others, but yes, it is certainly part of the equation! (to help get this back on track)