Guild Wars 2

Theftwind.8976:

As far as the anti farm code goes that is something else I would like a bit of information on. Is it per account? Per character? Do you have to spend time away with a specific character doing something else or can you do that something else on another character once you hit the point of DR? I use one toon to do my farming for me, he has all the MF gear but at times I have noticed that his DR seems to be “stuck” even if he has not been used in the game for a couple of days.

As far as how it works in Guild Wars 2, I don’t think anyone has figured it out yet. However I can link you some information about how it worked in the original game. As a general rule I just assume the two codes are similar.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Anti-farm_code

Official facts
Since the first implementation:
• Farming alone will yield fewer total items than farming with a full party, though more items per individual character.
• Certain items are not affected:
• Repeated map entry does not reduce loot.

Player tests
Confirmed
These theories have been confirmed by multiple players performing a variety of tests under a variety of conditions.
• The drop rate from the first foes killed in the area is less than normal; after several kills, the rate returns to normal.
— Some believe that the governing factor is time; some believe it is both time and number of kills.
— Player researchers speculate that this was implemented to limit boss farming near outposts, but it can be seen near any portal (even if there are no bosses).

Disputed
These hypotheses have strong advocates, but others point to contradictory evidence or insufficient data.
• Killing too many foes too quickly results in lost drops.
— Advocates of this theory recommend spike over AoE damage, to limit the number of simultaneous or near-simultaneous deaths.
— Critics point out that not every foe drops an item and that, necessarily, some of those missing drops will occur during simultaneous kills.
• The drops are seeded when the party enters an area.
— This was tested by having multiple parties enter the same zone at the same time. Researchers counted drops and also looked at drops from specific foes. Their results flew counter to the previous hypothesis.
— Others have not been able to replicate these results (possibly due to the difficulty in synchronizing entry).
• Repeated farming of the same area results in a progressive reduction of drops.
— Players that farm raptors and/or vaettirs are the strongest proponents of this theory.
— Although there are plenty of anecdotal reports, there are very few published results that show the total drops at the beginning of a series of farming runs and the totals late in the series.

Speculative
These hypotheses persist despite the fact that testing would take hundreds of players farming under controlled conditions for dozens of hours each. This does not make them untrue, just unconfirmable.
• The drop rate is affected by external factors:
1. Too many players farming the same area.
2. Time of day (e.g. peaking or hitting minimums every three hours)
• The drop rate decreases if your character or account does a lot of farming.
1. This clearly affects drop rates for Treasure.
2. This cannot be confirmed for foe drops (see above).

SadieDeAtreia.8912:

The real question is: why is there still such a thing as Diminishing Returns in this game?
And when they’ve answered this, ask them how they plan to word their apology for keeping it in game this long.

“Why is there such a thing as Diminishing Returns in this game?”
Because players grind, farm, and otherwise burn through content much faster than Arena Net intended, and faster than they can produce more. Then those players, being the jerks that they are, come on the forums and complain about the lack of content. Diminishing Returns are just one of the delaying tactics Arena Net is forced to use to preserve their intended content lifespan long enough to produce more.

“How are they going to word their apology for keeping it in the game this long?”
How are we going to word our apology for making the game need it for this long?

Jrunyon.3012:

That’s almost impossible from a code perspective. A programmer would have to intentionally make it so that different people had different loot tables from others.

RNG is RNG, take off the tinfoil hat please.

Its called the anti-farming code. Been around since the original Guild Wars and yes; it does mean that your individual loot table can be altered based on certain factors. Beyond that, as you said RNG is RNG. And luck is luck. It is fully possible to get a T6 mat with every-single-kill just as it is fully possible to never see one drop. Ever. It all comes down to luck.

Aristio.2784:

the uprising.6317:

GW2 is not the CoD or LoL of MMO’s it was trying to be. Of being super accessible and casual, yet reward players for skill and hardcore play as well. And even LoL is ruined quite a bit from the catering to casuals as the game as a whole is watered down and there is a whole load of depth removed from the game its derived from, DotA, just to cut down on the frustration of new players.

But GW2 just doesn’t care about the hardcore gamer at all, another thread stated the game was elitist in the opposite sense in which this word is usually used, in that if you aren’t the ideal player for Anet, if you don’t play between X and Y hours and are a tryhard in general, the game wants you to bugger off, you’re going to ruin it for the casuals.

Anet finally added endgame vertical progression in the form of ascended gear, and all the casuals SCREAMED that this was adding a gear treadmill. So now Anet vows that there will be no further treadmill. So what is the hardcore endgame now? Back to twiddling your thumbs, and trying to get that legendary while you rot in diminishing returns. Anet realizes this is a problem and thus they are working on revamping their PvP offerings, which in reality, is the only way you will keep hardcore players playing without adding a PvE gear treadmill.

Atm GW2 is not rewarding in terms of time put into the game or the amount skill/effort you put into it, just so the casual player can have his day in the sun and achieve just as much as people more dedicated to the game. Whereas more healthy game design would allow players to play the game both casually and as a hardcore gamer, giving both methods of playing unique perks. Take LoL for instance, casual players are generally as competitive as everyone else and can get champions faster than hardcore gamers in terms amount of hours played thanks to the First Win of the Day bonus, while hardcore gamers will generally have more options to choose from, along with getting to hone their skills more.

It’s still fun for me.

Why isn’t fun a reward anymore? Did we need “ACHIEVEMENT UNLOCKED!” every time we stomped on a Koopa Shell? Did we need endgame progression in Contra? Did we need to get better boxing gloves in Knock Out?

When did games start being more about reward and less about fun?

About the same time the major movers and shakers in the industry realized they could make more money off creating a compulsive need for reward than trying to make a fun game. Fun is subjective and always a risk to pull of, it’s an art, but manipulating people is a science.

Stryker Ace.4708:

While at the Laurel vendor (Lions Arch) I noticed that every ascended item having condition damage also had a precision attribute. Ideally I would like to get something with Power, Toughness, and Condition Damage only.

Is there some relation of precision and condition damage that is not explained in the wiki?

I don’t know if this is on the wiki or not, but here is what I think. There are a lot of upgrades you can get that apply conditions on critical hits, ranging from sigils that add bleed on crits to traits like one on the engineer that adds burning on crit. So while Condition Damage itself can be used with just about any other stat, high precision builds can make exceptional use of condition damage because of all the procs. That is likely why you see a lot precision/condition items right now; condition damage is more popular among players who use crits rather than direct damage.

Agreed. This always bugged me.

morrolan.9608:

Arkham Creed.7358:

The Black Lion Salvage kit is not an advantage. All you can do with it is gain mats useful either for gold or crafting.

You’re just taking a very narrow, very literal view of whats constitutes an advantage. It is objectively better than any salvage kit in the game therefore it is offering something objectively better than the equivalent item in the game and its not cosmetic.

And objectively speaking neither that item nor its in-game equivalent provide an advantage.

“I can do worthless and meaningless things slightly better than you.”
What’s your point?

“He can do worthless and meaningless things slightly better than me.”
What’s your point?

morrolan.9608:

Arkham Creed.7358:

Clearly there is no point in this conversation as you are dead set on refusing to admit what kind of game Guild Wars 2 actually is due to some archaic notion of what MMOs have to be.

But he’s correct. The game is a theme park, just one with some sand box elements.

Actually no. One of the developers (and again; it is their game so their views supersede all of ours, including yours) sated that Guild Wars 2 was “a sandbox full of themeparks.” It may seem an unimportant distinction, but it really isn’t. What that means is each type of content in the game is self-contained; there is no overriding “endgame” or “progression” of universal goal of Guild Wars 2 at all. Instead we are supposed to pick an element of the game we like, or a type of content, and stick with that.

For example; unlike in WoW you don’t PvE as a way to gear up for PvP. PvP and PvE are self-contained content that do not require any overlap on the part of the player. As such if you are the type who wants challenging content and endless progression you are supposed to play Fractals. Just Fractals. Fractals is its own game, and its own endgame. It is the place for progression in the same sense that the Living Story is the place for “lore hounds.”

That said I understand that most feel Fractals needs work (I wouldn’t know; I have no interest in that type of content, and as such do not play it), but that is a separate issue for separate threads. If your themepark needs work go to the people managing it and complain and offer suggestions there; my themepark is doing just fine. Fantastically even, so I don’t want to hear it.

morrolan.9608:

Arkham Creed.7358:

Except for the fact (and yes it is a fact) that you don’t need anything in the cash shop. And nothing in the cash shop offers an objective advantage,

Black Lion Salvage Kit

And its not about P2W (I don’t think it is) its about the mechanisms in the game that force players into buying gems for gold.

The Black Lion Salvage kit is not an advantage. All you can do with it is gain mats useful either for gold or crafting. You can obtain max stat gear easily without either, and as such there is no power advantage to having a Black Lion kit. None. Zero. All they will ultimately get you is a lot of useless gold sitting in your account bank and collecting dust.

“But you need those mats and gold for a legendary.”
Legendary weapons are the same as exotics. There is no power advantage to having one.

“But you can turn gold into influence, and influence into karma.”
Nothing you can obtain with karma is better than the exotics you can get a half dozen other ways. There is no power advantage to having a large bank of karma.

“But the influence can help in world-verses-world.”
In world-verses-world influence is used to claim keeps and provide limited use buffs to surrounding players. Objectively better buffs (easier to obtain, faster to craft, mobile) exist without being tied to influence. There is no power advantage to having a large bank of influence.

“But the Black Lion kit saves time. Doing things faster is an advantage.”
Only in a competitive environment wherein time is an official factor in success. PvE is neither competitive nor timed. Saving time is a subjective advantage and thereby not worth discussing. It exists purely within your own mind and does not effect anyone but you negatively nor positively. Drop it and move on with your life.

Here is another solution, but it will only work in dungeons or instances. Because the servers can only handle 25 stacks right now, split that into five stacks of five (one for each player in a party), and scale the stacks so that each new stack is a little more powerful than the last, adding enough extra damage per stack so that each player’s five is equal to 25. You can adjust timing and application chance accordingly so that reaching the equivalent of 25 stacks is just as challenging, that way balance isn’t horribly effected. In essence it is kind of a “sub stack” algorithm that can compact a stack of 25 down to 5 while maintaining damage, duration, and difficulty.

This would be meaningless in the open world of course, but at least it would fix the issue in instances.

the uprising.6317:

Arkham Creed.7358:

the uprising.6317:

Sure you can do whatever you want with a toy like an MMO but in a themepark mmo, how the game is designed is everything.

Arena Net specifically said, more than once, that Guild Wars 2 is not a themepark MMO. And as to subjective opinions; this isn’t your game. You didn’t make it. Arena Net did. It is their game, we just play it. Their opinion is the one that counts; not mine and not yours. If they say endgame in GW2 is X, then it is X, you insisting that it should be Y is completely futile and meaningless. And before you talk about what MMOs are again based on other games; what other games say endgame is is also completely futile and meaningless.

Wow, if you really think GW2 isn’t the themepark MMO then just… I don’t think there’s a point of debating with you. I could probably give you any single player and tell you “its a sandbox”, and you would believe me, look you don’t HAVE to beat the main quest in Zelda, you can do sandbox stuff like stare at walls and examine the texture work, make up challenges like running a circle around the town fastest, and stare at the TV screen for 3 days until you start hallucinating! So many options with limitless entertainment!

Now you’re just being insulting. And getting reported for it. But I digress.

Clearly there is no point in this conversation as you are dead set on refusing to admit what kind of game Guild Wars 2 actually is due to some archaic notion of what MMOs have to be. Completely disregarding that MMO isn’t even an independent genre, but rather a multi-player mechanic that could conceivably be applied to any and every genre.

the uprising.6317:

Sure you can do whatever you want with a toy like an MMO but in a themepark mmo, how the game is designed is everything.

Arena Net specifically said, more than once, that Guild Wars 2 is not a themepark MMO. And as to subjective opinions; this isn’t your game. You didn’t make it. Arena Net did. It is their game, we just play it. Their opinion is the one that counts; not mine and not yours. If they say endgame in GW2 is X, then it is X, you insisting that it should be Y is completely futile and meaningless. And before you talk about what MMOs are again based on other games; what other games say endgame is is also completely futile and meaningless.

Aeonblade.8709:

Arkham Creed.7358:

Aeonblade.8709:

If you enjoy the game so much, go play it how it is, and let us discuss ways to make it better.

The problem with that is a lot of the things you want to “make it better” I say would make it worse. I don’t want progression. At all. And a lot of people agree with me. Maybe it’s even, maybe it isn’t. But those of us on the no progression said automatically win for one simple reason; Arena Net doesn’t want progression. If they did then the game would have had progression from the beginning.

We can compromise of course. I don’t think anyone would have a problem with raids or progression if it were cosmetic only, or something other than stats and wasn’t used as a content gate. But progression and raiding as they are in other games? No.

I have no desire for stat based progression either. This thread has mainly been about the point of design decisions in game during inception/creation and up until today. It’s got a very contradictory design on the whole at the moment.

You may have been talking to someone else about raid progression, because I have no desire to raid or have a traditional treadmill

Well at this point all these arguments are starting to blur together, so you have my apologies. That said I’ll return to a point I made and that was ignored long ago.

If you don’t like grind; stop grinding.

To sum up a very long and detailed explanation; Arena Net can only produce content so fast, and it has to last. As such new content has a predetermined life span. It is intended to last long enough for them to produce more. Yet players have a nasty habit of grinding through content way too fast, much faster than was intended, and then complaining to no end about the perceived lack of content.

Arena Net can’t keep up. No one could. So the only thing they can do is slow you down by making content take longer, by lowering drop rates, by raising mob health, by nerfing professions. The faster we consume content the more grindy and repetitive the content will become, because that is the only way any game developer can preserve their content’s originally intended lifespan.

If you want drop rates to be reasonable and content to be less of a grind then we, as a community, are going to have to make a real effort to not require diminishing returns and grindy content. Put simply; we have to stop grinding and stop farming.

Aeonblade.8709:

If you enjoy the game so much, go play it how it is, and let us discuss ways to make it better.

The problem with that is a lot of the things you want to “make it better” I say would make it worse. I don’t want progression. At all. And a lot of people agree with me. Maybe it’s even, maybe it isn’t. But those of us on the no progression said automatically win for one simple reason; Arena Net doesn’t want progression. If they did then the game would have had progression from the beginning.

We can compromise of course. I don’t think anyone would have a problem with raids or progression if it were cosmetic only, or something other than stats and wasn’t used as a content gate. But progression and raiding as they are in other games? No.

the uprising.6317:

Arkham Creed.7358:

the uprising.6317:

Blaine Tog.8304:

the uprising.6317:

So GW2 lets people play their way, unless that way is how most people play mmo’s?

Actually, kinda yes. GW2 is trying to be different, to shake up the stagnate genre.

If you’ve played GW2, you’ll notice its just a different take on WoW, Anet’s take on it, but there is clear inspiration in EQ-like games rather than in GW1. There are dozens of kill 10 rats quests, and the interesting quests just got moved out into the open world. That’s it, that’s really the main “shaking up” GW2 did, right until you reach max level, where Anet says “the game is over guys, make an alt until we make new content you can beat in a few hours.”

From my perspective what’s happening is that the devs are not industry veterans in MMO’s, since GW1 was hardly an MMO, and thus the game has very muddled core design goals.

Except that the founders of Arena Net also made a little game called World of Warcraft.

Oh yeh completely forgot about that, I guess the design is muddled b/c they were trying something new and paradoxical to the endgame.

You’re still struggling with that whole “subjective opinion” thing aren’t you? I like Guild Wars 2 as it is, and so do lots of other people. And clearly it was designed with players like us in mind. You say paradoxical to the endgame, I say improvement. I like that there is no progression, I like that “the whole game is endgame” and I like that there isn’t a mandatory Skinner Box.

You’ve already said that you’re going to uninstall and quit the game, while you’re at it stop signing into the forums. You’re not happy here and we’re not happy with you here; you’re preaching to people who disagree and don’t want to hear it, and banging your head against a brick wall with your arguments. Just stop. Go do something else. You’ll feel a lot better, I promise.

Buttercup.5871:

You see, @Creed, I am grateful for your response and the fact that you tried. But your first premise is where it goes wrong.

The OP’s argument is that DR affects content. And it does. Say, you 4 hours a week, all in one evening. Say you just want to do one particular part of the game on that evening. DR will tell you to stop that content after less than 1 hour. Because, simply put, the rewards will stop. And rewards are part of the gaming experience. Take out the reward part, and – for most people – that dimishes the fun of experiencing that content. It’s that simple.

Now, let’s take it one step further and apply this example to practice. Let’s consider the above person is part of a guild that has more time on their hands. They run dungeons, competitive WvW, etc. Let’s say this person wants to deck him/herself out in one set of dungeon gear, within the least amount of time possible (of which that person has FAR less than the others), so that he/she can join the guild on their runs. To have a fun experience with his guild (and without dying every other minute due to a lack of gear, which is definitely not fun). Arenanet says: No. You shall do other dungeons first, or other zones, whatever you want – except what you want to do now. That’s part of the problem the OP was talking about. It’s schizophrenic game design. DR doesn’t just punish the “grinders”, it punishes everyone.

I know that the flipside, no DR, leads to inflation which punishes casuals even more. I know that. I’m not saying I have a solution, either. Nonetheless, the OP’s argument is spot on.

The rest of your argument focuses on “correct” and “incorrect” gameplay. I know what you’re saying; I just don’t want to be told by the game that what I do find fun – or to put it more accurately, relaxing – is “not fun” or relaxing.

There are two main points I got from your post, and I’ll focus on those. Firstly you made the statement “Because, simply put, the rewards will stop. And rewards are part of the gaming experience.” This is an example of what I was calling “incorrect play-style.” For you rewards are part of the experience, yet this clearly was not part of Arena Net’s intent. This is expressed by how quickly and easily any player can obtain max-stat gear and thus be effective at any content in the game, and further supported by the fact that Arena Net did not promote the game based on rewards, but rather fun content.

While you could rightly argue that rewards are a form of content, I believe the context should be considered. In all instances when speaking of fun content, the overall subject of the article/interview/video was on combat and events, and in all instances when speaking of rewarding content, the overall subject was fun. This means that the intent and meaning of those phrases was the abstract gratification of enjoyable gameplay, not tangible in-game rewards and loot.

No onto the issue of “I just don’t want to be told by the game that what I do find fun – or to put it more accurately, relaxing – is “not fun” or relaxing.” I perfectly understand, so please allow me to clarify. When I speck of incorrect play-style I am referring to a type of play unintended by the developers, and thereby not balanced into the game. Obviously the developers intended to make a fun game, and that means that there is objectively and intended “path to fun.” No one is saying you are wrong for finding other things fun, fun is a subjective thing that can’t and shouldn’t be argued. However being a subjective thing means that it can’t be universally accounted for. In essence this means that Guild Wars 2 was designed and balanced for people who find fun in the intended play-style, and those who find fun in unintended play-style are playing incorrectly from a technical point of view, not an emotional one.

Seeing the two above paragraphs leads me to believe that you are an incorrect player. That isn’t an insult, nor am I calling you wrong for finding fun in the things you enjoy. What I am saying however is that you are not part of Arena Net’s target audience as you do not find fun in the intended play-style. This means that mechanically speaking you will always have a suboptimal and unintended experience, and as your subjective idea of fun continues to clash with the mathematical and technological intent of the game any fun you may gleam from the game will be diminished. If you prefer; you’re not “wrong” you’re just “incompatible.”

IndigoSundown.5419:

Arkham Creed.7358:

Geotherma.2395:

Arkham Creed.7358:

Eridani.8317:

Arkham Creed.7358:

Skinner Box nonsense …

Wish people would stop throwing that term around as if it automatically validates their argument.

However a primary aspect of the Skinner Box is that it doesn’t reward every attempt; rather it rewards sporadically, thus making the arbitrary reward feel more significant, and reinforcing the compulsion to repeat the desired behavior.

And yet these boxes DO reward SOMETHING every single time. Skinner box does NOT reward SOMETHING EVERY single time. The arbitrary reward in that experiment was still a reward, it was NO reward VS varying rewards as a reward/no reward scenario.

Now we’re getting into personal definitions here. Let’s back up just a bit and define reward.

Now obvisouly a reward is a bonus for doing something. However within this context what we’re really talking about is a “desired reward.” For example if you’re a thief in Guild Wars 2 then you can’t use rifles, so a rifle while technically being a viable reward for content, and does technically have some value, it isn’t something most thief players want. They would rather have a dagger or shortbow. As such, within the context, a dagger or shortbow would be a reward, and a rifle would be what we MMO players like to call “vender trash.”

It is the same thing as winning a free ticket on a scratch off lottery ticket; yes you technically won something, but it isn’t what you wanted nor useful, it has no personal value to you, and so you’re not likely to be happy about it. However what it does is make you keep playing, in hopes of getting the right reward. This is the primary way MMO gear progression tries to pretend that it isn’t a Skinner Box; it does technically give you something nearly every time. However in the mind of the player, in their personal contextualization of the scenario, they were not rewarded and as such the artificial significance of the arbitrary reward they want is maintained. Or in some cases amplified.

A Skinner box tests the reactions of a single rat. Now, if a psychologist were to design a box in which multiple rats needed to press levers at the same time, then rewarded 1-2 of them (but not the rest) each time, then the comparison would be closer to spot on. Now, getting the rats to work together might be problematic, though that’s happened in quite a few raids, also.

Then I suppose you could call MMO gear progression a form of “communal Skinner Box” if you like. That said; if I may interject some pure opinion, I don’t call raiding “working together.” That is because most of the players don’t actually interact, and they don’t have to share tasks or responsibility. This is more getting into the Holy Trinity than raiding of course, but I don’t define a game wherein everyone focuses on their own tasks as individuals cooperative. Instead I’d say that is more like juggling; a solo task, but being told you failed because the guy on the other side of the room dropped one of his balls. (yes I know there is a type of juggling shared between multiple people, but my point stands. In Holy Trinity raids you don’t share tasks and responsibility, you don’t pass the balls back and forth, you focus on your own stack and hope the guy next to you doesn’t screw up.)

the uprising.6317:

Blaine Tog.8304:

the uprising.6317:

So GW2 lets people play their way, unless that way is how most people play mmo’s?

Actually, kinda yes. GW2 is trying to be different, to shake up the stagnate genre.

If you’ve played GW2, you’ll notice its just a different take on WoW, Anet’s take on it, but there is clear inspiration in EQ-like games rather than in GW1. There are dozens of kill 10 rats quests, and the interesting quests just got moved out into the open world. That’s it, that’s really the main “shaking up” GW2 did, right until you reach max level, where Anet says “the game is over guys, make an alt until we make new content you can beat in a few hours.”

From my perspective what’s happening is that the devs are not industry veterans in MMO’s, since GW1 was hardly an MMO, and thus the game has very muddled core design goals.

Except that the founders of Arena Net also made a little game called World of Warcraft.

Your opinions are your own, but misinformation isn’t acceptable. For one the game isn’t over when you reach max level any more than it is in other MMO. The only difference here is that you’re not being forced to replay everything unless you want to. WoW, Rift, SWTOR…all those games have the same kind of issues with content at max level, only those games say “the game is over guys, but just replay that last bit about five hundred times while we spend the next six months coming up with something new.”

Geotherma.2395:

Arkham Creed.7358:

Geotherma.2395:

Arkham Creed.7358:

Eridani.8317:

Arkham Creed.7358:

Skinner Box nonsense …

Wish people would stop throwing that term around as if it automatically validates their argument.

However a primary aspect of the Skinner Box is that it doesn’t reward every attempt; rather it rewards sporadically, thus making the arbitrary reward feel more significant, and reinforcing the compulsion to repeat the desired behavior.

And yet these boxes DO reward SOMETHING every single time. Skinner box does NOT reward SOMETHING EVERY single time. The arbitrary reward in that experiment was still a reward, it was NO reward VS varying rewards as a reward/no reward scenario.

Now we’re getting into personal definitions here. Let’s back up just a bit and define reward.

Now obvisouly a reward is a bonus for doing something. However within this context what we’re really talking about is a “desired reward.” For example if you’re a thief in Guild Wars 2 then you can’t use rifles, so a rifle while technically being a viable reward for content, and does technically have some value, it isn’t something most thief players want. They would rather have a dagger or shortbow. As such, within the context, a dagger or shortbow would be a reward, and a rifle would be what we MMO players like to call “vender trash.”

It is the same thing as winning a free ticket on a scratch off lottery ticket; yes you technically won something, but it isn’t what you wanted nor useful, it has no personal value to you, and so you’re not likely to be happy about it. However what it does is make you keep playing, in hopes of getting the right reward. This is the primary way MMO gear progression tries to pretend that it isn’t a Skinner Box; it does technically give you something nearly every time. However in the mind of the player, in their personal contextualization of the scenario, they were not rewarded and as such the artificial significance of the arbitrary reward they want is maintained. Or in some cases amplified.

Edited-

The desired reward IS a personal want/desire, one chosen among a plethora of options. You still get a reward each time you open the box, you do not get closer to that reward over time, you do not have an end goal. Each time you click you activate the pseudo random or random number generation. Each time you do say your odds are the same as the last, they are not considerably better by buying 10 or 100. You do gain a better chance at “hitting” a win because your amount is simply higher, but you do not get a guarantee. One could simply theoretically win the lottery by buying every ticket, some can even be won using mathematical concepts or loopholes in the system itself. RNG is a fair and unfair thing, which in the end makes it unbiased. I still say your textbook definition is not represented here in the game, edited my post to clarify that better.

You mentioned I was making it my personal definition, when in fact changing the definition to your opinion of how it is interpreted would be the same exact thing. I’ve studied the skinner box theory, and this is close but not word for word nor is it the same experiment that people seem to think it is. It is one of the most commonly mistaken theory’s out there, people have a serious issue with creating their own version of what it means. Which I suppose is our psychological and analytic way of examining someone elses work. But either way is still inaccurate,

The odds of success and the fairness of the system are of no consequence. The basic fact remains; you are repeating the same simple task compulsively for an uncertain and arbitrary reward. I respect your opinions, but not your denial. As long as you are repeating the same tasks for some reward given after an uncertain number of attempts, and this behavior is intended to breed compulsion, it is a Skinner Box.

Geotherma.2395:

Arkham Creed.7358:

Eridani.8317:

Arkham Creed.7358:

Skinner Box nonsense …

Wish people would stop throwing that term around as if it automatically validates their argument.

However a primary aspect of the Skinner Box is that it doesn’t reward every attempt; rather it rewards sporadically, thus making the arbitrary reward feel more significant, and reinforcing the compulsion to repeat the desired behavior.

And yet these boxes DO reward SOMETHING every single time. Skinner box does NOT reward SOMETHING EVERY single time. The arbitrary reward in that experiment was still a reward, it was NO reward VS varying rewards as a reward/no reward scenario.

Now we’re getting into personal definitions here. Let’s back up just a bit and define reward.

Now obvisouly a reward is a bonus for doing something. However within this context what we’re really talking about is a “desired reward.” For example if you’re a thief in Guild Wars 2 then you can’t use rifles, so a rifle while technically being a viable reward for content, and does technically have some value, it isn’t something most thief players want. They would rather have a dagger or shortbow. As such, within the context, a dagger or shortbow would be a reward, and a rifle would be what we MMO players like to call “vender trash.”

It is the same thing as winning a free ticket on a scratch off lottery ticket; yes you technically won something, but it isn’t what you wanted nor useful, it has no personal value to you, and so you’re not likely to be happy about it. However what it does is make you keep playing, in hopes of getting the right reward. This is the primary way MMO gear progression tries to pretend that it isn’t a Skinner Box; it does technically give you something nearly every time. However in the mind of the player, in their personal contextualization of the scenario, they were not rewarded and as such the artificial significance of the arbitrary reward they want is maintained. Or in some cases amplified.

Eridani.8317:

Arkham Creed.7358:

Skinner Box nonsense …

Wish people would stop throwing that term around as if it automatically validates their argument.

By definition a Skinner Box is a behavioral conditioning device intended to inspire compulsive behavior by providing arbitrary rewards for repeating simple tasks. However a primary aspect of the Skinner Box is that it doesn’t reward every attempt; rather it rewards sporadically, thus making the arbitrary reward feel more significant, and reinforcing the compulsion to repeat the desired behavior.

In progression based MMO endgame the player is encouraged (or rather required) to repeat the same content dozens, perhaps hundreds of times in an effort to obtain an uncertain reward (gear you can use) based on a random number generator system called a “loot table” (sporadic reward distribution). By repeating this cycle time and again, players are conditioned to find enjoyment not in the content itself, but in the sense of progress and artificial reward of obtaining their new equipment, and thus continue to repeat the content long after all enjoyment has been drained from it.

I’m sorry you’re in denial; but gear progression is the very definition of a Skinner Box. It’s basically text book.

morrolan.9608:

Arkham Creed.7358:

I like the fact that there is no carrot to chase. The thing about those carrots is you can never catch them. They are just a lure; a trick. They are used to keep you marching along with your tunnel vision while your master works you for everything he can get, and leaves you to die in the dust when your strength has run out. Carrots are a predatory tactic used to keep you paying a subscription fee, nothing more.

Quite frankly I don’t see any difference between that and what anet are doing with the cash shop in fact it can be argued that what they are doing is more insidious with the RNG and the funnelling players towards the cash shop.

Except for the fact (and yes it is a fact) that you don’t need anything in the cash shop. And nothing in the cash shop offers an objective advantage, so don’t try that line. (just because you call it an advantage doesn’t make it one; that is a subjective advantage, one based on your opinion of fairness. Objectively speaking you are no more powerful using the cash shop than not, so objectively speaking it is not an advantage)

The whole point of a carrot in other MMOs is that you need it. You don’t have a choice in following the carrot. If you don’t then you literally can’t play more than half the content in the game. In Guild Wars 2 using the cash shop is a choice. You can call it a carrot if you like, and you can say we are being funneled to it (we’re not), but at the end of the day it is entirely your own choice to use it or not. Don’t blame Arena Net for all the money you wasted on RNG boxes; blame the guy who bought all those RNG boxes, clearly he is irresponsible with his money.

Buttercup.5871:

ProxyDamage.9826:

[…]

When you have content in a game it’s safe to say that it is expected that people will want to attain that content. When the only way to attain that content is either through very low odds random chance and/or through attaining a gigantic laundry list of rare items, you’re forced to grind the game – regardless of how you do it. When you also have other mechanics in the game that actively impede that, that is bad game design. No "if"s, "and"s or "but"s. That’s like having you run a marathon then forcing you to wear lead and stone shoes.

Additionally you shouldn’t tell people how they play the game. Some people can only play a little every day. Others can only play a lot on select days. Forcing one method of playing the game in detriment of all the others is, again, bad design.

Thus far, no one has been able to debunk the bolded quote. Because it’s impossble. It IS schizophrenic game design, even for casuals. Especially for casuals, actually.

Back on topic.

I’ll take a swing at that. I like a challenge.

First off this guy’s example has nothing to do with how you play the game. When you can play and for how long is a timing issue, not a content or experience issue. You can grind and farm for five minutes once a week, or six hours a day every day. It is still grinding and farming. On the other hand things like grinding and farming are how you play the game. Put simply; how you play the game is defined by what you do in the game, not how often you do it.

That said a computer game, ultimately, is nothing more than a mathematical system. And being such, it was designed, programmed, and balanced around assumptions made by Arena Net. In essence, Guild Wars 2 was created around a play-style assumed by Arena Net long before any of us got our hands on a disc. And a computer game, being just a mathematical system, does have objective correct and incorrect methods of use. Or rather, the method you use to experience content can be either like what Arena Net intended when programing the game (correct), or counter to that intent (incorrect). And a player who plays the game in an incorrect fashion is inviting all manner of problems into their user experience that Arena Net neither intended, nor is responsible for.

Ultimately, there is definitively a method of experiencing content that is correct for the base program of the game, and for Arena Net’s intent. That is the way you should be playing the game. And if you are not playing the game this way, then you should change how you play if you desire the intended optimal experience; enjoyable. If you chose to disregard this and play in an incorrect manner, put bluntly, you have no right to complain about a suboptimal or unintended experience; un-enjoyable.

the uprising.6317:

Arkham Creed.7358:

the uprising.6317:

So GW2 lets people play their way, unless that way is how most people play mmo’s?

Brilliant.

Anet should thank the stars they already got our money.

No; it doesn’t. And no one ever said it did or would. Games are systems, they are math, and there is a right way and a wrong way to do that math. And it just so happens that the “typical” way to do that math in other MMOs is the wrong way here. Deal with it.

What are you talking about, see all the pre release interviews, I think it was in the manifesto as well. I feel like I’m in Orwell’s 1984 and you guys are changing history and your memories to defend GW2.

They were like we have stuff for all types of gamers! The entire game is endgame, you will never run out of content! If you like MMO’s you should check out GW2!

They never said you would run out of content. They did say that you would be doing the same things at max level as when you were leveling up; that is what they meant by “the whole game is endgame.” I think you misunderstood the quote. And also from that manifesto…

“If you don’t like MMOs then you’ll really want to check out Guild Wars 2.”

Greater emphasis on people who dislike traditional MMOs. That should tell you something.

the uprising.6317:

MMO’s are all about progression bro, self expression and growth via your character, the actual action you are doing is super boring, GW2 is no different not sure why you would think it would be different. Without progression or rewards you are just grinding for no reward, that’s like insanely weird.

No; they aren’t. You need to scroll up and read my post; MMO isn’t even a genre. It is just a player limit. The games you like are all about progression, and that is fine, but not all games are, and all games with this player limit don’t have to be. And as far as grinding, may I offer a suggestion? Stop grinding. You said yourself there is no reward for it, so why do it? Did it not occur to you that your not supposed to grind? That maybe the reason Arena Net keeps nerfing farming paths is because you’re not supposed to be doing that?

At this point I think we can all agree that you’re not happy, and likely don’t see a reason to stick to playing Guild Wars 2. I wish you well with Wildstar or whatever game you end up with, but how about you try an experiment before you quit? Just try playing the game without grinding. Without thinking about progression. It is pretty clear you won’t be changing your idea about what a MMO is, so try pretending that GW2 isn’t a MMO. Play it like a…..oh…..cooperative online RPG.

pricer.5091:

I used to like the game, in fact I still like WvW and running about with my guild. But there is NO reward for playing. There is no carrot. You are being endlessly driven to the cash shop and the developers are greedy and deaf.

I like the fact that there is no carrot to chase. The thing about those carrots is you can never catch them. They are just a lure; a trick. They are used to keep you marching along with your tunnel vision while your master works you for everything he can get, and leaves you to die in the dust when your strength has run out. Carrots are a predatory tactic used to keep you paying a subscription fee, nothing more. Likewise I have never been driven to the cash shop for anything. I’ve spent a grand total of sixty dollars on this game; the initial box cost, and yet I’ve been playing since beta and continue to enjoy it.

tigirius.9014:

And we absolutely do not have the ability to catch spells and then throw them back with our shield.

Just tossing this out here; at the time that trailer was originally produced we did. It was a two-stage skill that let you catch any projectile and hold it, then toss it at another target. Mesmers had a skill just like it once (now it just steals boons). Why it was removed I can’t say; but I do miss it. I guess it was just too powerful, or too hard to use.

pricer.5091:

Blaine Tog.8304:

the uprising.6317:

So GW2 lets people play their way, unless that way is how most people play mmo’s?

Actually, kinda yes. GW2 is trying to be different, to shake up the stagnate genre.

And its succeeding, by being complete garbage…

Which will encourage others not to make the same stupid mistakes…thereby improving the genre.

I respectfully disagree. Guild Wars 2 is one of the best MMOs I’ve ever played (second only to the original Guild Wars) for exactly the reasons you call it garbage.

Funny how opinions work isn’t it?

Mahaedros.7085:

Mirta.5029:

There wasn’t a single player that payed for a 30 day WoW subscription and then didn’t feel guilty for not playing WoW before his subscription ran out.
… but the ones that we have right now run out no matter you play or not, so most people try to get their money’s worth.

You might be correct but can you provide any evidence or quotes or anything at all to back up these claims you’ve made?

I love discussing these topics but it is difficult when there are many emotional opinions added to the discussion.

I’ll back it up. I can only speak for myself, but I dropped sub based games almost instantly. I hated feeling like I was shackled to the game, and that sense of “I need to play” went a long way toward undercutting any enjoyment I may have been getting. Wanting to play and needing to play don’t always go hand-in-hand, and feeling like I needed to play to get my money’s worth was actually rather frustrating when there was other things I needed or wanted to do. In essence the sub fee turned the game into a chore; and I don’t personally find chores very engaging or enjoyable. I don’t believe a game should ever be a chore; it should never be something you feel like you have to do. It stops being a game at that point.

Flame Jet (flamethrower skill)
Spray fire in a cone pattern while on the move, burning enemies on the final attack. Deals 100% bonus damage to burning targets.
Damage (100x): 4900
Burning: 10s (3280 damage)
Attacks per second: 50
Range: 4250
Targets effected: 30

*The skill ticks damage one hundred times; the chance of a critical hit is calculated separately for each, allowing multiple opportunities to trigger on-critical effects

NOT UNDER-POWERED ANYMORE!!!!

Uprising, I think I know what you did. You saw “MMO” and got confused. You forgot that MMO is nothing. It isn’t a thing. It isn’t a genre. It isn’t even a part of a genre. MMO means “massively multi-player online.” It is a multi-player system, nothing more. No different from or more significant than “co-op” or “one-to-four players” or “system link.” It is often used as shorthand for MMORPG, but that in itself is flawed. Guild Wars 2 simply isn’t the same kind of game as games like World of Warcraft, or Rift, or Star Wars The Old Republic. It isn’t the same genre.

To paraphrase the good people at Extra Credits, mechanics have nothing to do with genre. A genre is the core engagement of the game; the reason you play. Both Call of Duty and Mass Effect are shooters, both have guns you aim, both have reload mechanics, both have leveling and progression, but you don’t play CoD for the same reason you play Mass Effect. The core engagement of the two games is completely different. It is the same thing here. The core engagement of whatever MMO you come from, obviously, was progression. But progression is not the core engagement of Guild Wars 2; it is an afterthought. Or at best a tutorial mechanic. You progress to learn how to play, you don’t play to learn how to progress.

You’re playing the wrong genre. You are looking for engagement that doesn’t exist. You bought Mass Effect when you wanted Call of Duty. Next time don’t just assume that every MMO is the same. As I said MMO isn’t even a thing. It isn’t even a mechanic. It isn’t even a style. It’s simply how many people can play at once. Four people can play Mortal Kombat 9 at once, but that doesn’t somehow make it something other than a fighting game, just like how only one person can play Skyrim, but it isn’t any less of a RPG.

the uprising.6317:

No they said the game was for everyone.

Where did you hear that? Because it is completely wrong. Arena Net said from the beginning that there was no endgame, so obviously this isn’t a game for people who demand endgame. Think logically. If you are a player who “needs” a certain type of content, and the developers have stated hundreds of times that that exact type of content was not in the game nor planned to be part of the game, then obviously the game is not for you.

Catering to the hardcore is ruining this game. This is supposed to be the alternative to all the boring, repetitive, Skinner Box nonsense in the MMO genre. If you want endgame like in WoW/Rift/SWTOR then go play WoW/Rift/SWTOR; this game isn’t meant for you.

the uprising.6317:

So GW2 lets people play their way, unless that way is how most people play mmo’s?

Brilliant.

Anet should thank the stars they already got our money.

No; it doesn’t. And no one ever said it did or would. Games are systems, they are math, and there is a right way and a wrong way to do that math. And it just so happens that the “typical” way to do that math in other MMOs is the wrong way here. Deal with it.

Recluse.6740:

There is never a wrong way to play a game that is supposed to be a living world.

It is easy to say that, and it makes everyone feel better, but that doesn’t make it true. A game is not a living world. Games can’t be living worlds; it is a technological impossibility. All a game is is a list of rules and systems, and countless mathematical formulas. You can say “there is no wrong way to play” but by the very nature of the thing there is a way to play the game that it was balanced for. A way that it was designed to be played. And as such it is pretty easy to assume that if a game was designed around a given play-style, then the developers intended for the community to play that. And if you make the choice to intentionally play in a way that was not intended by the developers then it certainly isn’t the right way to play. So if it isn’t the “right way” what does that make it?

pricer.5091:

Marxo.3829:

I’m going to put this really simply.

Other games: you literally have to grind to see new content or else your gear is not powerful enough to do the content.

GW2: Zero, none, nada need to grind to see all content in the game. Nearly max stat gear is extremely easy to get.

I’ll put this really simply, you are right, you can experience all the content in the game without the cosmetic gear. But then what do you do? Do it all again? How many times do you do that?

Till anothergame comes out?
Answer = yes

Without a purpose (advancement in power / skills or vanity items). There literally is no game. Never mind end-game.

So is this really meant to be a play-through once or maybe twice if you have an alt you can actually be bothered to level without crafting it to 80? Until the next expansion comes out maybe? Or wait, there is living story…which so far every time it was added took me less then two hours to finish and then wait a month for the next two hours worth?

Meh. Bored senseless.

I never thought I’d see the day when someone was complaining that a game didn’t outright waste their time and didn’t force them to keep playing long after they’ve exhausted all the content, but then here you are. Honestly I’m starting to think liking MMORPGs is a form of mental illness. Or at least in the case of liking “traditional” progression based MMORPGs.

War Siren.2346:

Arkham Creed.7358:

pricer.5091:

Er, you know a week only has 168 hours in it? And if you work 100 you only have 68 left? Of those 68 even assuming you only slept 5 hours a day, thats another 35 hours gone leaving you 33, which is not a lot by anyones standards and if you dont work in your house you must be travelling. Do you eat…lets assume yes. Toilet? Most likely. You probably have less then 10 hours free a week and yet you raid, stay up to to date with games and still have a rewarding social life?

You must share your secrets. Im amazed.

The secret is trolling; you can say whatever you want and it is actually more effective if it doesn’t make sense.

…
…
…

Either that or someone is just really, really bad at math.

Or weeks are blured together into Paychecks and they forgot to take their weird logic and convert it back to normal :P, as I said above I meant every 2 weeks.

Okay, that makes sense. Consider my statement withdrawn.

pricer.5091:

Er, you know a week only has 168 hours in it? And if you work 100 you only have 68 left? Of those 68 even assuming you only slept 5 hours a day, thats another 35 hours gone leaving you 33, which is not a lot by anyones standards and if you dont work in your house you must be travelling. Do you eat…lets assume yes. Toilet? Most likely. You probably have less then 10 hours free a week and yet you raid, stay up to to date with games and still have a rewarding social life?

You must share your secrets. Im amazed.

The secret is trolling; you can say whatever you want and it is actually more effective if it doesn’t make sense.

…
…
…

Either that or someone is just really, really bad at math.

Lighter.5631:

Harlekin.2981:

I love the end-game style of GW2 I really love it.
I feel sorry for the people that can´t appreciate it.
Maybe one day ANet will manage to put in a raid-like experience without forcing people to grind so everyone´s happy. Till that happens, you might want to try other games or twink GW2.

ofc, more skins. so its not forcing, because all the same stats! lololol

And there is the key to this whole mess. Personally I wouldn’t care if they added a full on raid system to keep the hardcore players happy, so long as its all cosmetic. This is why I don’t have an issue with Fractals in spite of the fact that I personally hate the dungeon, and refuse to set foot inside because I am philosophically opposed to any content that only exists to be endlessly repeated. I don’t like it, and will never do it, but it doesn’t hurt me to not do it. I don’t have to listen to people complain and badmouth me because I don’t have ascended gear, and nothing gained in that dungeon is really of any use to me at all.

As long as there is no advantage to doing it, or penalty for not doing it, Arena Net can add any kind of content they want on top of their current design and I for one won’t have a negative thing to say to them.

Phaedryn.3698:

Arkham Creed.7358:

Phaedryn.3698:

Arkham Creed.7358:

Phaedryn.3698:

Stark.1350:

War Siren.2346:

Brown Noses and lying to yourself doesn’t get the Dev’s to give you things just saying. :P

Now if you truly enjoy the joke of “Endgame content” then hey kudos, a lot of us don’t (I realize some of you do.) However, I’m at mind to think that you may not actually know what endgame content is supposed to be, and that’s why you’re happy.. but hey if I’m wrong and you enjoy the half hearted attempts they give us, kudos.

The only end game content in ANY MMO has been endless raids hoping for RNG gear.

This game doesn’t have that, for which I’m thankful.

Go play one that does and quit kittening.

So you are saying that GW2 has no end game content? After all if your assertion that “The only end game content in ANY MMO has been endless raids hoping for RNG gear” is true, then “This game doesn’t have that” would indicate that GW2 has no end game content, for which you seem to be thankful?

Is that really so hard to understand? I came to Guild Wars to get away from that crap. I don’t like having to raid five nights a week just to keep my gear current. I don’t like having to pretend to like a bunch of elitist min/max jerks because their guild does runs 2% faster. I don’t like the idea of “falling behind” because I got a few more hours at work some week.

I’m a grown man with a real life; I don’t have time for endgame. And don’t want to waste what little leisure time I do have with repetitive, boring grind and having to deal with a bunch of children who think they’re better than me because they don’t have real lives and can afford to spend fifty hours a week raiding.

First the “I’m a grown man with a real life”. Really? You want to go there? I served 20 years in the military, got a degree in physics after I retired and currently work in the field of magnetic engineering. Do I get to call myself a “grown man with a real life yet”?

“I don’t like having to raid five nights a week just to keep my gear current.”

Then don’t.

“I don’t like having to pretend to like a bunch of elitist min/max jerks because their guild does runs 2% faster.”

Good, I wouldn’t either. The solution is simple, don’t do it.

“I don’t like the idea of “falling behind” because I got a few more hours at work some week.”

Awesome, we seem to be on the same page.

“And don’t want to waste what little leisure time I do have with repetitive, boring grind and having to deal with a bunch of children who think they’re better than me because they don’t have real lives and can afford to spend fifty hours a week raiding.”

Then don’t, nobody is suggesting you have to. More to the point I do not know of a single MMO where this would be true. Either you are WAY overly sensitive or just have horrid expectations. Not sure which, but given the hyperbole with which you phrased most of that comment I will have to go with over sensitive.

I don’t do those things actually. That is why I chose to play a game that lacks the mechanics that typically encourage such things. If you want that kind of experience then I suggest you go play a game that offers it, Guild Wars and Guild Wars 2 are games for people that are tired of those old tropes.

You are still making massive assumptions (that are wrong BTW). I haven’t done any “raiding” like activity since I left wow (a month after the release of WotLK). But I guess I shouldn’t be surprised that you point of view is so limited given some of your other responses Ive read.

Again I haven’t said anything about you personally one way or the other. You are the one making assumptions and taking general comments personally. That says more about your role in this thread than any post I could make, so I’m just going to ignore you now rather than contribute to further derailing the topic.

Phaedryn.3698:

Arkham Creed.7358:

Phaedryn.3698:

Stark.1350:

War Siren.2346:

Brown Noses and lying to yourself doesn’t get the Dev’s to give you things just saying. :P

Now if you truly enjoy the joke of “Endgame content” then hey kudos, a lot of us don’t (I realize some of you do.) However, I’m at mind to think that you may not actually know what endgame content is supposed to be, and that’s why you’re happy.. but hey if I’m wrong and you enjoy the half hearted attempts they give us, kudos.

The only end game content in ANY MMO has been endless raids hoping for RNG gear.

This game doesn’t have that, for which I’m thankful.

Go play one that does and quit kittening.

So you are saying that GW2 has no end game content? After all if your assertion that “The only end game content in ANY MMO has been endless raids hoping for RNG gear” is true, then “This game doesn’t have that” would indicate that GW2 has no end game content, for which you seem to be thankful?

Is that really so hard to understand? I came to Guild Wars to get away from that crap. I don’t like having to raid five nights a week just to keep my gear current. I don’t like having to pretend to like a bunch of elitist min/max jerks because their guild does runs 2% faster. I don’t like the idea of “falling behind” because I got a few more hours at work some week.

I’m a grown man with a real life; I don’t have time for endgame. And don’t want to waste what little leisure time I do have with repetitive, boring grind and having to deal with a bunch of children who think they’re better than me because they don’t have real lives and can afford to spend fifty hours a week raiding.

First the “I’m a grown man with a real life”. Really? You want to go there? I served 20 years in the military, got a degree in physics after I retired and currently work in the field of magnetic engineering. Do I get to call myself a “grown man with a real life yet”?

“I don’t like having to raid five nights a week just to keep my gear current.”

Then don’t.

“I don’t like having to pretend to like a bunch of elitist min/max jerks because their guild does runs 2% faster.”

Good, I wouldn’t either. The solution is simple, don’t do it.

“I don’t like the idea of “falling behind” because I got a few more hours at work some week.”

Awesome, we seem to be on the same page.

“And don’t want to waste what little leisure time I do have with repetitive, boring grind and having to deal with a bunch of children who think they’re better than me because they don’t have real lives and can afford to spend fifty hours a week raiding.”

Then don’t, nobody is suggesting you have to. More to the point I do not know of a single MMO where this would be true. Either you are WAY overly sensitive or just have horrid expectations. Not sure which, but given the hyperbole with which you phrased most of that comment I will have to go with over sensitive.

I don’t do those things actually. That is why I chose to play a game that lacks the mechanics that typically encourage such things. If you want that kind of experience then I suggest you go play a game that offers it, Guild Wars and Guild Wars 2 are games for people that are tired of those old tropes. Further I don’t recall saying that you personally were anything, good or ill. Perhaps you are the oversensitive one. If you take general comments about the community of an unnamed game personally…..well, grown perhaps, but clearly not mature.

Sometimes I get the feeling engineers and all our problems are just being completely ignored. This was my favorite profession, but I am starting to loose hope for it. Currently I am struggling to raise a thief alt, and dislike nearly every second of it, but it is the best choice RP wise next to engineer. A shame really; engineers need some love.

Phaedryn.3698:

Stark.1350:

War Siren.2346:

Brown Noses and lying to yourself doesn’t get the Dev’s to give you things just saying. :P

Now if you truly enjoy the joke of “Endgame content” then hey kudos, a lot of us don’t (I realize some of you do.) However, I’m at mind to think that you may not actually know what endgame content is supposed to be, and that’s why you’re happy.. but hey if I’m wrong and you enjoy the half hearted attempts they give us, kudos.

The only end game content in ANY MMO has been endless raids hoping for RNG gear.

This game doesn’t have that, for which I’m thankful.

Go play one that does and quit kittening.

So you are saying that GW2 has no end game content? After all if your assertion that “The only end game content in ANY MMO has been endless raids hoping for RNG gear” is true, then “This game doesn’t have that” would indicate that GW2 has no end game content, for which you seem to be thankful?

Is that really so hard to understand? I came to Guild Wars to get away from that crap. I don’t like having to raid five nights a week just to keep my gear current. I don’t like having to pretend to like a bunch of elitist min/max jerks because their guild does runs 2% faster. I don’t like the idea of “falling behind” because I got a few more hours at work some week.

I’m a grown man with a real life; I don’t have time for endgame. And don’t want to waste what little leisure time I do have with repetitive, boring grind and having to deal with a bunch of children who think they’re better than me because they don’t have real lives and can afford to spend fifty hours a week raiding.

Stark.1350:

War Siren.2346:

Brown Noses and lying to yourself doesn’t get the Dev’s to give you things just saying. :P

Now if you truly enjoy the joke of “Endgame content” then hey kudos, a lot of us don’t (I realize some of you do.) However, I’m at mind to think that you may not actually know what endgame content is supposed to be, and that’s why you’re happy.. but hey if I’m wrong and you enjoy the half hearted attempts they give us, kudos.

The only end game content in ANY MMO has been endless raids hoping for RNG gear.

This game doesn’t have that, for which I’m thankful.

Go play one that does and quit kittening.

Agreed. I starting playing the Guild Wars series because I didn’t want to be trapped in a Skinner Box. Compulsive gameplay isn’t good gameplay.

Seras.5702:

I WILL have those wings for my mesmer.

And despite the shield not exactly matching my Engi’s theme, I think I’ll find a way to make it work.

Then again, maybe this time around we’ll finally have a cool pistol skin…….

Based on the axe and shield we’ve seen I’m betting the pistol (if we even get one, there wasn’t one with the Super Adventure Box. And yes I am going to keep complaining about that) will be green crystal, some bronze, and a dragon design. Thief weapon at best.

Nice shield. Not suited for an engineer, but nice shield never-the-less.

Hey Arena Net; did you completely forget that you have a technology based profession? Can we please get something themed for us at some point? And no; those magical volcano guns from Flame and Frost don’t count.

Fenrir.3609:

Hindsight is indeed 20/20 and it is much easier to sit and pick holes in a system than to come up with a good one from scratch. But let’s be honest here, it should have been obvious from the earliest conceptual stage that having requirements based off oodles of mats dropped from trash mobs is a system which screams of a grind/farm approach.

It also should have been obvious from the beginning that designing a system wherein the primary form of late game progression is cosmetic, and then designing a profession that constantly replaces it’s weapon skin with a much uglier stock weapon as a primary mechanic (engineer) would cause problems. Especially in the case of legendary weapons. But I keep seeing threads on the subject and started a few myself.

I never said Arena Net didn’t have a…….habit, of overlooking important details that should be obvious. Sometimes they get tunnel-vision pretty bad in their design, and other times they focus too much on the big picture and miss little details. Nobody’s perfect.

Strange, I honestly thought this was a good idea. Oh well, one last bump and that’s it.

RoterFuchs.9216:

Arkham Creed.7358:

TooBz.3065:

There’s no carrot to keep me playing when the next game comes around.

Play for the game, not for the carrot.

I don’t mean to sound rude, I really don’t, but if there is nothing about the world, the lore, the mechanics, the story, or the community that you genuinely enjoy then you’re better off finding a different game. I’m not trying to defame you with that, it is the honest truth; Guild Wars 2 isn’t about the carrot, so if you’re just looking for lunch you would be happier elsewhere.

If it isn’t about the carrot, what is it about then? “Having fun” I hear you say. How? How to have fun, if you have done everything there is already?

You learn to love the little things. Like the simple pleasure of watching a swarm of spider hatchlings pop like little balloons as you charge them with a flamethower. Or the chance to see what old NPC allies are up to in the new updates. Or seeing the world change from one update to the next. Or kicking back with your guild and enjoying a game of kegbrawl. Or RPing with some close friends and making up new stories to tell over guild bonfires. The little things.

Do you play other games? Console games like Saints Row, shooters like BioShock, or strategy games like XCOM? What keeps you playing those without long term, persistent, progression based goals? Play the game because you like the game. And if you lose interest or finish everything before the next update take a break; you’re not being charged a sub fee after all. Leave, go play something else. Get your carrot fix and pop back in for the next update; we’ll still be here to play with you when you come back.

Fenrir.3609:

Arkham Creed.7358:

Veteran rewards, not farming goals. They are supposed to take time.

Then they could and should have time gated the process for these “veteran rewards” a hell of alot better than they have done.

Thousands of wvw kills, high rankings in spvp, solo dungeon paths, complete all the living story/dynamic events over the course of months/years.

But no, they opted for a system reliant on an inordinate amount of mats dropped for the main part from trash mobs. Blind Pew could see that is prone to grinding/farming.

If they are going for a no farm approach, well they have borked the system up from the start by the very methods used to achieve said “veteran items”.

Personally even with all the nerfs, it is pretty easy to get most of the stuff if you actually go after it. I’d make it harder if anything. But it is as clear as day how the current set up promotes farming.

Hindsight being 20/20 I’m pretty sure they agree the mat/physical currency based system wasn’t the best idea. But you are still failing to realize something; there is a difference between an account veteran and a content veteran. For example I have played GW1 for about five years. I am an account veteran, and get a few little rewards for that, such as birthday gifts on my characters. However I’m not much of a content veteran. I’ve completed all the story stuff and Guild Wars Beyond, but I have few titles and am basically still a PvP noob. Because of that the rewards for long term investment in these things are outside my grasp. I have the best armor stat wise, but I don’t have the most prestigious skins, or those respectable titles, or that neat holo-dragon emote from PvP.

Guild Wars has a history of rewarding content veterans; it doesn’t care how many hours your account has existed or how many hours you’ve been idle in Orr; it only cares what you’ve done. Those dungeon armors are not something to be farmed; they are a mark of mastery. You’ve clocked enough time in those dungeons to earn them. You know those paths backwards and forwards; you are a dungeon guru who can lead nearly any group to success. For that personal achievement you get armor and weapons themed to the dungeon. Mastery, veteran, whatever you want to call it, you’ve put in the hours and the work to earn those rewards.

Perhaps some sort of progress bar would have been a better choice than tokens, but again; hindsight is 20/20.