Guild Wars 2

The thief needs to walk through (or shadow step) across those lines. If the thief is rezzing a downed target (and not moving) and you drop the trap on the downed, the thief will still not be revealed.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

phoenixwil.6071:

Yeah I encountered a ghost thief too and it is unbalanced. One ghost thief (yes it was one), killed 9 of us then he revealed himself and started jumping lol. I don’t mean one of us came along one at a time, there were 9 of us bobbing and weaving yet the ghost thief 1v9 us… and he won lol. Say whaaaaaat? The ghost thief appeared again later picking off zerg tail. Zerg was capping a control point and the ghost thief was jumping a tad out of range, taunting us. Pretty sad when a zerg’s only option is to ignore him. FYI, I was a mythril Herald and actually said no way he’s gonna kill me. I got this…wrong! lol Only one reveal but it was useless since it has short range. No, I shouldn’t need the help of a purchasable WVW stealth reveal to be useful. No doubt that biased thieves will respond with, “Maybe don’t get hit. Maybe get gud at running away. Maybe hit skill 1 to land a lucky hit. Maybe just ignore him in a game that is designed for combat. Maybe ask the zerg for help. Maybe wait it out and the thief will maybe hit you. Maybe switch toons and hope for the best. Maybe just hit me ‘cause I’m fragile…even though I just soloed your squad and you can’t hit me back…um, ok, forget I just said that. Maybe give all classes stealth, um, wait, no don’t do that ‘cause then I won’t be able to target you. Where was I? Maybe…” Yeah yeah ’cause all that makes sense…

Great game but unbalanced. Ghost thief trapper wasn’t the craziest I’ve seen. A ghost thief pistol kills you almost instantly. Shoot twice and you should be dead. Shoot > Shoot > Stealth if foe isn’t dead > Shoot. Can’t fight back if you can’t target even though reflects help, not all classes have reflect. There are some videos that show it and it’s been around a while but still used in WVW for instakills. Same goes for the ghost mesmer greatsword that does an instakill. I have 25k health and I was like wtf just killed me and the auto crystal hibernation at low health didn’t activate. I don’t get how Anet doesn’t have a problem nerfing some things but allows stuff like this to continue. What was the response for nerfing the Dragonhunter trapper, we nerfed it because it was very difficult to counter. Hmm, interesting…

If it was truly 1 ghost thief vs 9 of you that’s a serious L2P issue, I know Roaming on my Burn Guard I am able to easily kill a Solo Ghost Thief, when 2 are involved it becomes a hassle.

If true, I am sure it wasn’t 1 ghost thief. 3-4 ghost thieves working in tandem (voice comm not even really required) is unbelievably overpowered especially if there is no hyper-save me Mallyx Rev nearby (still not invincible since you can chain daze/knockdown the Rev on called target). There is basically no way to tell how many ghost thieves there are except by how many condi stacks appear. Don’t even think about rezzing your teammates.

There is a thread on reddit about a guild in Europe running ghost thief groups…lol, it’s now out of hand.

This would be semi-balanced if there were traits/consumables that converted x% of Precision to Ferocity only and it was balanced around it being a “extra damage bonus” stat. The problem is there is condition duration which is greater than all other damage type modifiers.

Imagine a food that added 20% power-related damage. For WvW, we have standard food and crystals (and there are worse offenders).

To me, it is not about dire/trailblazer (in a vacuum) that is OP. However, it is that all these condition modifiers scale mathematically significantly better than anything direct damage has. That is what breaks the balance for WvW and not for PvP.

Let’s remove consumables in WvW first (or at least limit the ones that are available).

Lahmia.2193:

Artaz.3819:

Orangensaft.7139:

Easy:
You run from every fight with a ghost thief when there is no objective that you are fighting for
He cant damage you then since he relies on you walking through his traps or staying inside his dmg aoes

That goes for any roaming. Ghost thief has mobility too (and also bring two longer duration immobilizes plus a knockdown), running isn’t all that easy for you until those are on cooldown.

Orangensaft.7139:

If a ghost thief tries to take your camp though for example you can just run around and prevent him capping since he cant cap while stealthed

If you want to cap an enemy camp you can easily do it after killing the guards even with a ghost thief around since (again) he wont be able to prevent capping progress while stealthed

It becomes a waiting game then. I frequently had multi-enemy player teams show up to guard a camp or dolyak and while they sat around and baby-sat, I went and tagged towers, keeps and killed sentries. Then circle back for the camp and dolyaks since no one sits around that long.

If you’re roaming on a class with no mobility of its own, then you’re doing it wrong.

You missed my point.

Also, if is this a discussion on disengage because absolutely nothing comes close to Ghost Thief on disengage. Nothing, no contest, no where. I can sit virtually anywhere that is 600 range away from you and you’ll only see the single Black Powder graphic after just one HS (no after cast on BP so impossible for to prevent) through it every 7-8s once to stay stealthed and with other stealth abilities, I can be invisible indefinitely. You probably won’t even notice the Black Powder graphic if I stand next to an object.

Xenesis.6389:

TehHobNob.4687:

It is frustrating getting hit by a party of ghost thieves as an acro staff thief.

The encounter usually goes something like this:
Get hit with 6+ condis, I then shadow return and signet to remove 6. Its not enough to remove the posion which is ticking for 2k+. Its the only thing left on me. Escapist’s absolution does nothing because why would they attack after applying condis?

Running more condi clear could be done. I could run dash instead or instead of instant reflexes run pain response. <— That is probably what I will do. Instant reflexes is so good for getting stomps and defense but more condi clear every 16 seconds hilariously might be worth it.

There’s a very simple solution to this.

Run a pocket guardian with you, they can clear conditions, heal you, give you stab, have access to light fields for more condi clears, and can stand in your place as a target dummy while you port away!

Thanks for the Stability boon Mr Guard, my Bountiful Theft loves that.

Guardian is hard because they all bring multi-condi cleanse but not impossible to condi burst down. It takes a couple of rounds (but if they stand there swinging for 30s, lol).

That’s the wrong class to use, it’s Warrior (Berserker’s Stance) or Mallyx Rev (Pain Absorption) that are basically impossible to kill without help unless they fall asleep since it’s all burst condi damage hard-countered by spammable Resistance boon. Other stealthies are also hard to bring down just due to disengage (but that goes for all classes trying to kill a stealthy).

Orangensaft.7139:

Easy:
You run from every fight with a ghost thief when there is no objective that you are fighting for
He cant damage you then since he relies on you walking through his traps or staying inside his dmg aoes

That goes for any roaming. Ghost thief has mobility (and two longer duration immobilizes plus a knockdown), running isn’t all that easy until those are on cooldown.

Orangensaft.7139:

If a ghost thief tries to take your camp though for example you can just run around and prevent him capping since he cant cap while stealthed

If you want to cap an enemy camp you can easily do it after killing the guards even with a ghost thief around since (again) he wont be able to prevent capping progress while stealthed

It becomes a waiting game then. I frequently had multi-enemy player teams show up to guard a camp or dolyak and while they sat around and baby-sat, I went and tagged towers, keeps and killed sentries. Then circle back for the camp and dolyaks since no one sits around that long.

neven.3785:

Despite what others are saying here, i find there is 3 key elements that identifies a driver:

1. Position relative to group movements. Most drivers leap in front of their group. They fail to call the Leap to their group BEFORE they themselves leap in. Rarely do people take Comm delay into account.
2. Profession. Guardians the safest best, followed by Warrior.
3. WvW Rank. Generally people look for Gold/Platinum.

For a while, our commander was a Gold Rank, but we had several platinum ranks in guild. However, one person who was platinum was a guardian, and they got lit up all the time without going out of position, while our driver dealt with minimal focus. Now that our driver is platinum, he feels a lot more pain. Also keep in mind that even people running the game on a potato can use these 3 points to help pin point a driver.

Now when you face the same groups all the time, some people have ease using these secondary tactics to driver snipe.
1. Appearance. For some strange reason, most drivers i know don’t change their look and refuse to.
2. Guild tag. Some guild tags are often leading pugs, so it helps limit the choices for who is the driver.

1. Position relative to group movements.
Selecting targeted position ahead of the commander moves to solves this. It’s a pain to use because the symbol thing clunky without pre-planning. A simpler long range (1200) and persistent squad target directional arrow (more visual spam like the Jalis Inspiring Reinforcement road) going out from and available to only the commander tag or lieuts would work.

2. Profession. Guardians the safest best, followed by Warrior.
Guardians probably make up 1/3rd of all WvW classes (in zergs). Not an issue.

3. WvW Rank. Generally people look for Gold/Platinum.
This could easily be addressed. An option to show/not show “Bronze/Silver/Gold Platinum/etc.” WvW level designation in name tag from character options menu.

I’m Platinum Raider(?) and get lit up consistently and am often confused with zerg commanders. It doesn’t matter what class I run. Block/reflects/retaliation has become standard in my builds if I zerg it. And I don’t think I’ve run WvW commander for months/years now so this is no way a cross-server spy thing (which is also a larger issue not on your list).

babazhook.6805:

Straegen.2938:

babazhook.6805:

Damage on traps would still allow Ghost thief. Not as potent a version but if we talking two or more working in concert the outcome the same. (ie 22 confusion and double caltrops as a condi burst and a pair working together )

I would argue damage on traps is more potent due to unintended consequence. Namely Venoms would start working on traps and let me tell you that is an entirely new kind of condi evil. Certain attacks not procing damage on the thief is a good thing in some cases.

I know I drone on about this… the problem isn’t the attack it is the stealth. Fixes to the attack system could simply make things worse.

Yes , and I have already pointed this out to others who advocate adding a damage component to all applications of damaging condtions.

This would make STEAL into a monster and still allow Ghost thief. (4 extra damage procs per steal for venom adds).

Even if there was a short window where said thief “reveal;ed” that thief can easily avoid further damage until they can stack stealth again even as that condition bomb takes away on the victim.

You could easily make venoms not affect trap utilities too…seems simple code to avoid and “pet” issues. I don’t know if I see that as a huge problem though even if they did add it though. Both types are utilities, trap (or the one trait heal) and venom so both take up precious utility slots.

Sure you could bomb with Venom Stack + Steal but you also could just as easily use insta venoms now, pre-cast an autoattack and steal before attack animation right now. in game That’s definitely an all in move that isn’t exactly broken.

EDIT: I think the confusion is people think the suggestion is that every tick of condition damage from the trap would cause reveal – this is not true. The more appropriate “fix” is to have the initial trigger of the trap cause direct damage (very low base damage) which causes reveal if in stealth and for the trap’s remaining ticks of condition damage as normal for the remainder. Since the first tick of direct damage causes reveal and subsequent condition damage ticks do not cause reveal, this is the desired effect to expose the thief from stealth but not prevent the thief from re-entering stealth for the duration of the condition damage for a variety of class balance reasons.

babazhook.6805:

Avigrus.2871:

KaporHabakuk.6219:

Just add dmg to traps and traited steal,and its done,tadaaaa.Dudes respec back to condie pew pew thieves,and we all happy again

Would agree with damage on traps.

You have to actually trait to have stealth on steal – plus this is used by more builds than just ghost thief. Would not agree with this change.

Damage on traps would still allow Ghost thief. Not as potent a version but if we talking two or more working in concert the outcome the same. (ie 22 confusion and double caltrops as a condi burst and a pair working together )

2v1 should beat the 1 so good. Ghost thief is perma-stealth while doing damage (significant damage enough to actually kill things without becoming visible). That isn’t ghost thief if you do damage from stealth, become revealed for your opponent to react and then you may even re-enter stealth.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Artaz.3819:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Artaz.3819:

If it’s a solo ghost thief, that’s not overtly harsh if you have counter cleanse. It’s the pack of semi-coordinated havoc that is what is broken (or the 2-3 that follow invisible with other single/double defensive-like roamers since invisible rez too). The true issue is if the initial attack fails, no harm, no foul to the thief as you can reset over and over. This is absolutely crazy good when people are using siege out in the open (or just for impossible to stop siege disable).

And the ghost thief build is amazingly synergistic with others thanks to venom share being baseline (Spider Venom, Basilisk Venom). Immobilize comes from the double Needle Trap with one utility and another from heal trait. Easy to apply with timing Steal for insta teleport on target (which also adds stacks of additional Poison, Weaken, Confusion (or Daze) and adds more Stealth to the thief too).

That’s why you get lit up with condis all at once as the standard attack is to start casting Needle Trap followed by Steal (1200 range).

That moment when someone doesn’t realize Venoms/Venomshare do absolutely nothing for Ghost Thief, hint Venoms don’t Proc on Needle Traps, Caltrops, Steal or anything else the Ghost Thief uses.

Thankfully, NPC Guards, that crew of dredge/ogres/frogs, that lonely yak with two pitiful guards, fellow visible players that you are running along with (because everyone solo roams, right?), Turrets from Elite (or Thief Guild) and general pets works all too well. It’s pretty hilarious for killing other roamers that are going after a sentry or your own supply camp guards too.

And if you look at every Ghost Thief build they don’t run Venoms, they run Needle Trap, Blinding Powder and Shadowstep/Caltrop Utility, in the majority of all cases, since it is quite hard to maintain perma Stealth without Blinding Powder and they would lose damage if they don’t run the Needle trap, and your scenario you put out was all using Perma stealth Thieves no mention of any of those AI or Npcs. So you are basing your claims on being outnumbered by either players or Npcs and dying, funny how you claim a build to be OP and your claims come from being in an outnumbered situation.

I claim that it is overpowered because IT IS OP.

If you run this WvW Thief build, I don’t know how you think of it is a good build for the health of WvW. I’ve done it, abused it and had my fun FYI, I’m not the thread original poster so outnumbered has nothing to do with it – the original poster can’t even confirm there were multiple ghost thieves because you really can’t easily when you are targeted by teams. To summarize, ghost thief is virtually a no counter, zero opponent interaction (extremely unfair) PvP invisibility build. Do you remember pre-nerf mesmer PU?

Caltrops (utility) is the lower damage version of Poison Venom. Been there, done that 6+ months ago linky before there was even more buffs to the ghost thief build.

saerni.2584:

Venoms only synergize with visible enemies because only attacks that reveal trigger venom applications. A ghost thief gives up utility to have a venom and if running in a havoc group should honestly be running a different build to actually help the group.

Permastealth isn’t good for mobility which havoc needs to stay effective and alive.

One person uses Black Powder in front and all Leap finisher through (and keep going at 50% (Fleet Shadow) speed in perma stealth (no after cast on Black Powder allows this for leader too). You do drop traps, use Steal and “heal” stealth to keep Stealth always up while fully mobile between points. If you are lazy, you just use Shortbow 5. If someone goes down, you Merciful Ambush (just tap).

It’s not all that hard to watch your Stealth boon icon and eventually it becomes second nature anyway. The harder part is keeping stealth when you are actually hitting a target.

And I’d argue it is actually more mobile than a lot of roaming builds out there simply because you don’t have to check your back or look around corners and don’t have to avoid guard agro radius or sentries/watch towers. Give it a try and enjoy the broken stupid and boring (exotic gear works fine). You do need to be able to 5/2 on dagger/pistol often so lag monster can kill you.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Artaz.3819:

If it’s a solo ghost thief, that’s not overtly harsh if you have counter cleanse. It’s the pack of semi-coordinated havoc that is what is broken (or the 2-3 that follow invisible with other single/double defensive-like roamers since invisible rez too). The true issue is if the initial attack fails, no harm, no foul to the thief as you can reset over and over. This is absolutely crazy good when people are using siege out in the open (or just for impossible to stop siege disable).

And the ghost thief build is amazingly synergistic with others thanks to venom share being baseline (Spider Venom, Basilisk Venom). Immobilize comes from the double Needle Trap with one utility and another from heal trait. Easy to apply with timing Steal for insta teleport on target (which also adds stacks of additional Poison, Weaken, Confusion (or Daze) and adds more Stealth to the thief too).

That’s why you get lit up with condis all at once as the standard attack is to start casting Needle Trap followed by Steal (1200 range).

That moment when someone doesn’t realize Venoms/Venomshare do absolutely nothing for Ghost Thief, hint Venoms don’t Proc on Needle Traps, Caltrops, Steal or anything else the Ghost Thief uses.

Thankfully, NPC Guards, that crew of dredge/ogres/frogs, that lonely yak with two pitiful guards, fellow visible players that you are running along with (because everyone solo roams, right?), the nerf-me-now Turrets from Elite (or Thief Guild) and general pets works all too well. It’s pretty hilarious for killing other roamers that are going after a sentry or your own supply camp guards too.

If it’s a solo ghost thief, that’s not overtly harsh if you have counter cleanse. It’s the pack of semi-coordinated havoc that is what is broken (or the 2-3 that follow invisible with other single/double defensive-like roamers since invisible rez too). The true issue is if the initial attack fails, no harm, no foul to the thief as you can reset over and over. This is absolutely crazy good when people are using siege out in the open (or just for impossible to stop siege disable).

And the ghost thief build is amazingly synergistic with others thanks to venom share being baseline (Spider Venom, Basilisk Venom). Immobilize comes from the double Needle Trap with one utility and another from heal trait. Easy to apply with timing Steal for insta teleport on target (which also adds stacks of additional Poison, Weaken, Vulnerability, Confusion (or Daze) and adds more Stealth to the thief too).

That’s why you get lit up with condis all at once as the standard attack is to start casting Needle Trap followed by Steal (1200 range) and Geomancy sigil swap.

EDIT: For education, standard build with variables being Caltrops trait replaced with TotC, Bewildering Ambush trait replaced with SoH, Non-Needle Trap utility replaced with Shadow Step (useful if you are being hunted, tailing or zerging), Hide in Shadows replaced by Withdraw, some mix of Trailblazer as desired and carry a Shortbow for general travel (zerging Poison field on 4).

Dagger.2035:

I think requiring someone to tap a gate to contest a waypoint is a good compromise. It doesn’t seem reasonable to me to have player limits or require siege damage. There has been so many changes since HoT to discourage solo roaming and I don’t think we need to add more. If we keep going down this path WvW will eventually become EOTM 2.0.

1. Your suggestion “tap a gate only” will not counteract the grief behavior.

2. You should not confuse HoT power creep (a tangent conversation) with discouraging roaming as that has nothing to do with something (contesting waypoints) that existed before and after HoT.

Some “solo roaming” activities should be discouraged in WvW environments. This isn’t the only one.

nicknamenick.2437:

25% more burn

or

25% more vuln..

lol like Blackbeard mentioned, these should not have the same %.

After some rough math, all the condi duration sigils are way too high. What happened is the Force/Air/Fire/Blood/Leeching/Hydromancy sigils have been removed and basically replaced with mostly lesser Direct Damage versions in the pvp sigil overhaul. The exception is condition duration (which correlates to damage output over time) sigils have been increased 20% in value (increased from +20% to +25%).

If anything, all these damage condi sigils need to be reduced as well by 20%-25% or should be +15% duration sigils. Vulnerability (and if added, any other non damaging sigils) could easily be +25% and not impact much of the play.

Jekkt.6045:

change greater nullification to removes boons depending on the amount the target has. 2 boons -> -1, 4 boons -2, 6 boons -3 with a normal cd of 9s

Then the same should be done for the condi sigils.

The problem isn’t a single thief (even ghost) as that’s a tangent class balance issue.

The problem is a single person can lock-down waypoints from outside a keep. It’s a lesser form of griefing (not usually strategy or even coordination involved).

Show the swords so people know and can react to an objective being potentially attacked but there should be either a siege hitting the keep or several players (5+) hitting it for 15+ seconds.

shion.2084:

Wait a sec….
“Sigil of Punishment
Deal 1% extra damage per boon on your foe.”

Some classes have traits that can’t turn off their boon generation. And some classes are balanced around having boons. What is the %damage increase against classes that don’t rely as much on boons to survive?

I’m fine if you add damage because of something I do to an opponent. But for them to get to punish me for turning on regen when I need it because that’s the tool my class was given to survive is a bit silly.

It’s a next to nothing issue really. If this existed in game and coupled with DotE still does little to counter Protection Boon. At a mere 1% per type, it’s basically a no-brainer mathematically to take Sigil of Strength in almost every instance instead.

Evan Lesh.3295:

Svarty.8019:

Evan Lesh.3295:

Sigil of Paralyzation
+30% Stun duration
Deal 3% more damage versus disabled foes.

30% more stun?! This seems rather powerful to me.
Will there be any nerf to stunlock in the patch, or can we just expect nerf to damage?

I ask because if there is no new mechanic to put a cap on stun, I suspect that even though damage is nerfed, people will still be dead before they can do anything. Which isn’t fun.

If you think it’s OP, then you should go use it because it’s on live right now, but without the damage increase

Evon – can you actually fix the description to say “stun, daze, taunt, knockdown and launch effects” ? I don’t think it affects knockback but have never tested it in months/years so not even sure anymore.

ps Sigil of Energy should be 50% and 18s cooldown.

Overall, better than before, but remain concerned about certain condi duration specific sigils. Sigil of Separation seems out of place as this favors certain meta PvP classes a lot and there is no counterpart for melee versions. I’d just remove.

Sigil of Revelation – can it miss via an opponent evade? Maybe the Revealed should last 0.75s comparable to dodge frames? Otherwise it’ll probably not do what it is intended.

Sigil of Escape – Defacto Thief Shortbow sigil if that was your intent.

Orpheal.8263:

Anet should completely rework the Boon & Condition System by reducing both sides (14 boons/conditions is just too much than is good for th game – have you ever seen before a game with more buffs and conditions, than GW2??? I just haven’t and this surely has its reasons)

Just Google World of Warcraft buffs. There are 9 types of buffs alone. I don’t think GW2 is way out there.

The big difference between GW2 and the rest of major MMOs is there is no “damage type” mechanic. Most games revolve around resistance/mitigation towards damage types (i.e. physical (blunt/pierce/slash), fire, frost, psychic, dark, holy, etc. types) for balancing. So it doesn’t matter if it is Direct Damage or Condition Damage as it is balanced by gear that mitigates against certain types of attacks.

GW2 is actually much more simplistic.

In GW2, the difference is conditions are primarily just an unmitigated damage type outside of a few traits/defensive food types which covers typically a small percentage of the entire damage potential (<20% at best in most circumstances). Direct damage has baseline mitigation that can be enhanced with gear/stat options, trait options and even utility options that allows for typical WvW builds to always have around (35%-55%) mitigation plus Protection uptime for a multiplied (addition of) more mitigation.

In a bubble, having Direct Damage deal around 2x Condition Damage would make it balanced but that’s not where Condition damage is. It’s often as good as Direct Damage options in most builds or even better (driven by two stats versus 3 stats to enhance). The only counter out there from crazy-take-over-everything land is AoE cleansing, massive self cleansing abilities and Resistance Boon.

IMO, adding more stats doesn’t solve anything; in fact, it adds more balance issues. The current GW2 system is fine. We don’t need to scrap and redo everything.

UmbraNoctis.1907:

Artaz.3819:

That’s the fallacy. It doesn’t take 5s to ramp up to 5K per second damage anymore and to maintain that damage. On my chrono, it takes me less than 3s to get to over 6K-10K damage per second (variable based on whether you decide to use abilities and move after). And that can be done when the target is under the full effects of daze/stun or allows immediate invisibility after.

People will argue that they can do 6K-10K after second 1 with direct damage (but that’s not the point) as it is usually more than half mitigated so everything past the first 3s (yes, just 3s) is in favor of condi to do more burst damage if everything hits.

The myth is that condis are slow to apply and take time to ramp up in order to do damage. And then further, can’t be spammed over and over for every single encounter (also untrue in the post-HoT game thanks to specialization lines/core trait line redos).

If you add a stat that mitigates condi damage, Resistance boon also needs to be reduced from 100% mitigation.

I got never bursted down by a condi mesmer (or any other condi build) in less than 3 seconds ever. Not even once. And i met tons of them every day. The only mesmer than can actually burst me (10-15k+ dmg in less than 2 seconds) is power mesmer. And i’m playing a build with [b]high armor (2,8-3k)[b] and few cleanses.

That’s because you reacted or know how to counterplay even with limited cleanses. It’s theoretical – just like Power Burst. Do yourself a favor and just stand there once. It’s no big deal, right?

The key here is you are stating multiple cleanses. Every build in WvW has them for a reason to counter. It’s no different than stacking passive defense or blocks or immunities or protection boon or etc.

Adding a condi reduction stat adds build diversity to the game.

Straegen.2938:

Lahmia.2193:

It is capped at 25 stacks. Also it makes you wonder why epidemic hasn’t been part of wvw meta, despite being the same for 2 years.

It is not capped in WvW (unless they stealth nerfed it in the last patch). Besides a single a 25 stack of any damaging conditions is a lot of DPS across 5 players. Add on that it copies ALL conditions.

As noted above Epi became stronger as the meta switched from Power to Condi. When a few players were running condi builds it wasn’t as effective. Now at least in small scale condi builds dominate. Epi also feeds itself. The more Necros used it, the stronger the skill became in the meta.

It’s also because Boon meta (with Resistance, F5 traited and Durability Runes) dominated when Chronos could replicate across multiple people at once over and over again with low effort. That gave plenty of time for Mallyx Revenants (and shout cleansing Guards and Eles and others) to mass clear conditions from allies.

Chaba.5410:

vesica tempestas.1563:

Swagger.1459:

You should try to comprehend what I’m asking for before you sling that silly “l2p”…

condition is 5k over 5 seconds, so it takes 5 seconds to ramp up to 5k a hit, at anytime in that 5 second window you can cleanse the remainder instantly. this is all the mitigation you need.

And if you have Resistance up for 4 seconds, you’re only going to take 1k of condition damage over those 5 seconds.

By “counter” I mean “counter-play”.

That’s the fallacy. It doesn’t take 5s to ramp up to 5K per second damage anymore and to maintain that damage. On my chrono, it takes me less than 3s to get to over 6K-10K damage per second (variable based on whether you decide to use abilities and move after). And that can be done when the target is under the full effects of daze/stun or allows immediate invisibility after.

People will argue that they can do 6K-10K after second 1 with direct damage (but that’s not the point) as it is usually more than half mitigated so everything past the first 3s (yes, just 3s) is in favor of condi to do more burst damage if everything hits.

The myth is that condis are slow to apply and take time to ramp up in order to do damage. And then further, can’t be spammed over and over for every single encounter (also untrue in the post-HoT game thanks to specialization lines/core trait line redos).

If you add a stat that mitigates condi damage, Resistance boon also needs to be reduced from 100% mitigation.

Armor type (Light/Medium/Heavy + Vitality) for Condition Damage.
Light provides approx. 15% more reduction than Heavy.

Equivalent is Armor (Heavy/Medium/Light + Toughness) for Direct Damage.

It was originally introduced as the overflow to full queue servers during peak times and to test new WvW mechanics. A bit later, the living story also used it for one specific area.

If you haven’t noticed outside NA Friday night peak hours, there is always open room on every server to join at least one of the borderlands without a queue in front of you. Read, the WvW population is very small compared to where it was especially considering the linked servers.

Then WvW devs then decided that testing content in EotM (siege cannons, PPT changes, etc.) was not worth putting into EotM and just straight added it to the regular maps.

Living story (PvE content which brought more people into the map – even if briefly) was a short few weeks window.

And finally, the above posters are right. EotM was the defacto place to go level 2 years ago and more importantly for some, karma train for those that needed it. Because it was easy to follow the zerg, capture objectives and get even more bonus loot through WvW chest rank ups. Guilds were formed, PUGs followed, that “exploited” the farm and it was zergs usually purposely avoiding one another to flip objectives in rotation.

Those days are gone when ANet nerfed the loot and xp gains (outside of tomes).

It’s no longer a popular map (the mechanics are biased to green) but I would sure take it over Desert borderlands any day in a WvW map rotation.

Eddbopkins.2630:

Fine don’t give full immunity to condis. But why should there be no stat to mitigate condi damage like how there’s stat to mitigate physical damage. Why does condi get a free pass to do 100%damage 100% of the time? When there’s so much out there for physical damage. Your complaints don’t stand up at all when the immunity is only TEMPORARY

^^^ This. Nerfing Resistance just further pushes the already heavy condi meta (and boon) further to condi.

You have to nerf condi damage across the board in some way too then. Resistance is way too “strong” but it is a direct correlation to creep of condi spam (way too many buffs to condis, added types of condis and gear orientated (especially condi duration like Expertise and Runes) to support condi builds over the years has led to this issue).

The elephant in the room is still that condi takes two stats to create an effective damage build and is countered by no other stat. Power requires 3 stats to create an effective damage build and is still countered by 1 stat. (Both excluding Vitality and Healing Power). Step back and take a look, that’s why every effective WvW/PvP build is built on condi removals traits/utilities (in addition to defensive stats) outside of some stealth spam builds.

That said, this all was sort of balanced at one point but then ANet decided through design choice that adding large stacks of condis (and variety) with insta cast/near insta cast utilities, condi trait improvements and simple reapplication with autoattacks (spam) pushed the balance way too favorably to condi damage.

Crinn.7864:

Somehow I doubt that Sigil of revelation is going to be used that much. It requires dropping a damage or cleanse sigil (which is useful against all opponents) for something that isn’t useful against all opponents.

You pick your Sigils before the match begins. Yes, it’ll be used in every Thief, Mesmer, Druid and potentially Scrapper opponent teams.

It’s not just Thief. This has a profound impact on a 3 of 9 of 4 of 9 post-HoT classes as it directly counters a significant defense/escape mechanism.

OriOri.8724:

This is beyond ridiculous. Diamond Skin was not changed because of Resistance, otherwise Resistance would have been given to eles in some way shape or form, yet it wasn’t.

Resistance is extremely broken, always has been and always will be in its current state. Regardless, your insistance on defending such a broken boon is irrational, so I won’t be continuing this “discussion” any longer.

He won, you lost! Serious though, this is the I can’t explain myself cop out excuse.

His point is there will always be “the next” Resistance-like ability and it is unbalanced argument no matter how it is changed. Nerfing Resistance reverts the game back to condition-based spam meta which is arguably still where we are even with Resistance boon in the game in it’s current OP state.

What does that say about the proliferation of conditions? How does nerfing Resistance boon fix that?

Evan Lesh.3295:

Brockolosso.8316:

Sigil of Lethargy
Your next attack after swapping to this weapon while in combat slows your target (2 Seconds).
(Cooldown: 9 Seconds)
Sigil of Revelation
Reveal nearby foes when swapping to this weapon while in combat (240 Radius).
(Cooldown: 9 Seconds)

Are you for real? You were supposed to stop the power creep, not join them…

Are you saying you would always take those two sigils for every build?

Definitely Revelation (that would be a huge shift in meta game balance). Lethargy is dependent on whether you have interrupts or need sustain.

But that all said, people will simply gravitate to the Might boon on hit and on swap sigils too.

Garbage, just remove if left as is (context):

Sigil of Energy
Gain 25% of your endurance when you swap to this weapon while in combat.
(Cooldown: 9 seconds)
Half a dodge value is worthless. You would need a full 18s with perfect swap rotation to get any benefit.

Sigil of Exposure
Your next attack after you swap to this weapon while in combat inflicts 5 stacks of Vulnerability (5 Seconds).
(Cooldown: 9 Seconds)
Since it doesn’t effect the first hit, it’s a weak version. Since not ‘on hit’ like Frailty it can’t proc recurring trait damage modifiers.

Sigil of Stagnation
Cripple nearby foes when swapping to this weapon while in combat (3 seconds, 240 Radius).
(Cooldown: 9 Seconds)
Cripple is a weak condition and doesn’t synergize compared to Chill. It’s primary use is for a cover condition.

Sigil of Escape
Remove immobilize from yourself when swapping to this weapon while in combat.
(Cooldown: 9 Seconds)
Sigil of Cleansing is so much better.

Sigil of Compounding
Deal 1% extra damage per condition on your foe. Maximum 5%.
Sigil of Strength and Sigil of Battle are both stronger so this will never get used even in the most hybrid build. Assumption is “damage” means direct damage here and not condition-based damage.

babazhook.6805:

How would this work with Caltrops and Uncatchable ? If the idea is any time a condition applied there a damage component so as to reveal the thief , these would never be used as caltrops would mean no stealth for 10 seconds because all a person has to do is step in the field to reveal. Is the intent of that damage component that it work only on initial use or any time a condition applied?

The first tick deals direct damage AND condition damage (the remaining ticks are just condition damage).

For example the first tick of Caltrops (which is 10s in length) would break stealth with Revealed, after 3s, stealth can be reapplied for the remainder 7s left of Caltrops.

In due time, Resistance will be given stacks just like Stability… and it will kitten off PvE player base far more than Stability changes ever did.

Epidemic still unblockable and can’t miss (from blind)? Because that’s actually another part of the issue.

At the end of the night, this just means Necros need to run scepter (dur), Corrupt Boon and/or Well of Corruption (dur dur) in WvW so make sure you are all run meta Necro/Reaper build now.

Meh, banners are still horribly clunky for anything but party-based (dungeon, fractal) or raid PvE. They need to be toggle on (near insta cast) / toggle off (with a cooldown) like engineer turrets (and just remove the banner abilities – could leave the blast finisher when summoned).

EDIT: If ANet actually wants people to use the banner abilities, the autoattack needs to be sped up by 33% and probably another additional 150 range because banners don’t have a means to keep targets in melee range. And since there is no block, it needs that the Sprint 4 ability to add Evasion frames during since it doesn’t even do damage and activates/moves faster (instead of removing chill/cripple, give it superspeed during use). Or just combine 4 and 3 Swiftness abilities together and just make Inspire 3 a bunch of different boons including 10s Aegis and 10s Vigor.

Cast times and after casts are just so slow that no one uses. They need to be quicker so they get used. If worried that everyone can use in quick sucession, just tie it to the master Inspiring Battle Standard trait (activation times are 33% faster while wielding a banner).

This is a pipedream though.

McKenna, can you provide any correlation to WvW track gains (points unmodified by WXP boosters) with hours played?

The concern is hours played includes a ton of afk players for specific servers as there is a common tactic to use secondary accounts to just stand around in other WvW enemies areas for spying and/or troll other servers (especially tags).

In essence, you could be letting the spys and trolls severely influence your current algorithm.

Shwyx.8190:

Thanks for the various replies so far.

Odokuro.5049:

I’ll never understand why people need such a LARGE carrot dangled infront of them to have, “Fun”…

I’m not asking for handouts, which you would have noticed had you actually read my post instead of jumping to conclusions. I am asking for a coherent game mode, however.

Playing fractals rewards me stuff that helps with fractals. Playing PvP nets me insane rewards, especially considering I need no equipment at all for PvP. Playing WvW – where better gear actually means better chances (single digit %, sure, but still) and stat swapping would be amazing – nets me nothing that would help with WvW.

Jacion.6302:

Your post is a cry for help and we are willing to help but we need more information.

It wasn’t exactly supposed to be a cry for help, more a plea to whom it may concern. WvW isn’t exactly doing well (judging from the forums, Reddit and other sources) and I’m pretty sure the newcomer’s experience with it is one reason among many.

As for what I’m playing: primarily Ranger and Thief, and considering to gear my Engineer. I’m aware of Metabattle and the current builds. I’m also aware of the fact that copying a meta build doesn’t result in immediate success.

---

I’m not specifically looking to get better, as I’m well aware that this takes time and is at odds with a casual’s playstyle. What I’m wondering is why WvW isn’t as well done as the other game modes. Open world exploration, fractals, PvP, even dungeons: I can play these anywhere from 30 minutes to several hours and achieve stuff, reap rewards and have fun. Especially after the recent fractal and PvP reworks. WvW, not so much.

For your situation, I would actually consider Edge of the Mists instead. While the rewards are slower to come, it gives a better overall learning curve and the structures/camps/events are basically designed to be done with only a handful of people or can be scaled to a zerg.

The map is smaller/funneled and more frequently gets you into the action with some of the map mechanics.

Ovalkvadratcylinder.9365:

Zephyra.4709:

Just wondering what it means by:

Duration: 6 seconds

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Elixir_C

Whether it means ALL incoming conditions for 6 seconds are turned into boons or is it just the boons that last for 6 seconds once you click the skill?

the boons lasts for 6 sec no matter how long the condis were suppposed to last

Nope

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Elixir_C

Resistance definately doesn’t last 6 seconds from a Chill conversion. It’s a legacy skill fact from 2012 that doesn’t mean anything.

Straegen.2938:

This is the one we use. Tough players get the Mistfire Wolf. If you have access to that, it applies burn stacks using your condi values. The ticks from it can be crazy good.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZEQNAV4ansMBlOhNPBuNBEIiDZiSvnTRA43i24D5jQLcDA-TlyCQBFU9HkdQAqoyPUqEkK7P8CNEH7JAUPdDU4ACAgLEQAAEgZOzkZZGMexLexLexzMn5Mn5MnZpAWUZF-w

This build does have stealth gaps, but that doesn’t seem to matter much.

LOL – wrong Rune. It’s Rune of the Trapper.

Got to laugh, ANet has now significantly buffed Ghost Thief twice now.

Replace Caltrops (utility skill) with Spider Venom – especially if you are roaming with non thief or havoc. This also allows you to take Bountiful Theft which means you can occasionally pressure Resistance from Durability Runes and even make Revenants and Resistance Warriors run.

Replace Mistfire Wolf with the much better alternative, Take Root (for when you get revealed, you get immunity). And it synergizes with AoE Spider Venom too. Or just take Thieves Guild. Reaper of Grenth is super strong too.

Don’t use Shortbow unless traveling. Use dual Dagger/Pistol. That gives you the option to use Sigil of Geomancy without hassle on both weapon sets which is better than Malice (you also don’t need even more condition duration).

You can actually have too much condition duration if you are giving up significant significant condition damage to replace. Dual Needle Traps (with healing skill) covers the crucial Immobilize condition duration issue.

This is the build. Ghost Thief Link

Note, food choice is up to you. Condi duration food is the easy alternative.

I recommend either two traps (plus Heal and trap) or taking Blinding Powder for gaps where using Black Powder/Heartseeker is not ideal.

Don’t forget you are a formidable defensive damage dealer with Dagger 3 (blind)/Dagger Auto (poison/weakness) spam even if you screw up too. Also don’t forget Daze on Pistol 4 (if you are in a 1v1 situation) since if the target gets below half health and is struggling, the heal skill will be used.

Posting here so ANet nerfs this hard. It’s the most trolling no risk build out there right now and is good candidate to make traps utilities work differently on WvW only maps.

They are basically a non-factor and don’t even really need to exist. They just create a means to annoy, frustrate and even grief.

I’d just remove “tactivators” altogether if ANet doesn’t want to police or create mechanics around.

But you could easily create a WvW world abilities line that allows them to be used/pulled requiring Silver rank or higher to train that line. Line “levels” could be 3-5 steps and just be which ones you are allowed to pull. Camps versus towers/keeps would be separate levels.

Hexalot.8194:

Artaz.3819:

Natural Harmony will be nerfed. PvP bunker is also a problem with this as is. Enjoy it while it lasts.

Oh please. You’re trying to tell me that they would have done at least one test run before applying this buff and not got back the same figures we’re seeing here ?

In the Q & A thread they had on the balancing patch, the Devs basically implied they are now pushing support Rev like there is no tomorrow.

LOL

The real issue is that Alacrity effects the cooldown of the short 2s ability.

Anyone remember Boots Bad Build for Ventari revenants and perma-protection spam? (synergizes well with Runes of Altruism)
Link 1 (needs to be tweaked for WvW and boon duration changes)
Solo version Link 2

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/51o4ig/bootts_bad_builds_the_platypus_revenant/

This actually got immensely buffed just from the autocast heal change when entering Ventari.

Hilarious … this went from a gimmick build to probably something far far more …

Natural Harmony will be nerfed. PvP bunker is also a problem with this as is. Enjoy it while it lasts.

More condi spam for Epidemic – got to love this. Why doesn’t WvW use PvP ruleset? – seems like something very easy to do shrug

Instead of using two colors (white and red), why not use white (friendly, no damage), red (enemy, damage or effect) and I don’t know (green/blue anything else, friendly, damage)?

It’s just a /facepalm change

Zephyra.4709:

Run, run as fast as you can!
You can’t catch me. I’m the Gingerbread Man!

Not hacks, just HoT “balance”. The gimmick builds.

Nutshell: Energy sigils, endurance on heal, endurance on physical skills, enhanced vigor effectiveness, Instant Reflexes trait, Hard to Catch trait aka ayee lmao full endurance again, endurance on steal, that weird food that gives 40% ENDURANCE REFILL… man is that even necessary? adventurer runes, stamina sigil if you haven’t gone full balls to the walls nomad troll mode oh and Signet of Agility if for whatever ungodly reason you somehow manage to run out of endurance.

Bonus brownie points: play a Sylvari and slot Take Root elite skill aka 3 seconds of invulnerable upon channelling if you ever somehow need a last resort oh snap button (usually full nomads).

Much like the evades… that list could go on as to why these seemingly un-hittable sustain monsters exist.

You are forgetting Staff 3 for the 1/2s evade. If you jump with use, you can remove the movement aftercast and get the full frames of the evade with a weapon stow.
… nerf incoming …

This was way overpowered prior with stacking a large amount of confusion very early on against any target (even if stunned) with the standard spam the clones, F5, immobilize, F3, F2, F1, end F5 early, do it again normal burst rotation (F5 optional) with a condi chrono build, perplexity runes and other confusion application factors. The opponent’s reaction for a single condition clear (to have a chance to remove the confusion condition stacks or even a stun break) basically killed your opponent or put them in a situation of run or die. It was really OP.

It’s still a good 1v1 GM level trait and it’s basically guaranteed to be used on every 10s CD as is. 5s internal CD is probably where it needs to be though.

That being said, all Illusion GM traits are situational in nature based on build and need help. I’d say Illusions line could use that ole’ clone death trait piece back and this is where it should go. (Phantasmal Haste added to Illusionist’s Celerity, Malicious Sorcery to Master tier, On clone death (random condition) GM trait added)

With the servers acting as funky as they are with lag during primetime, I wouldn’t be surprised if its a bug related to the server not keeping client side updates in check including the outmanned buff.

Also, there is no way the servers support 120-man (“Fa had 2 60 man zergs”) for a single side. No fricken way. Your perception is off.

kitten. Don’t nerf my stealth vault w/bounding dodger spam in perma quickness (while you have initiative). I already gave you invincible ghost thief.

But it still pales in comparison to pistol 4 (Headshot)/Impacting Disruption on any class that doesn’t have excessive reflects. You avoid them lame kitten Mesmers and you are golden.

You want to see obscene damage numbers? Try a 3.28 damage modifier for 4 initiative (plus you can use Steal interrupt/Disruptive Strike) at 900 range that’s basically 1/4th the cast time versus Vaults 2.25 damage modifier for 5 initiative that leaves you vulnerable for about 0.5s each time you use it. You don’t spam pistol 4 like Vault because if it gets reflected it hurts but that leaves you open for escape options since you’ll have initiative available (on the perma stealth weapon set) too.

And having an average population across all times of the day is actually detrimental to your server (server link) now. You will more than likely never have enough players to outsize one of the two other competing opponents.

This forces a case of always being #2/#3 in point score for every session which really skews player perceived coverage more.

Unless you are in T1 (i.e., BG which doesn’t always get what it needs either) and have a extremely healthy population across all hours of every day in WvW, you will continue to see the fault in the average WvW time that bars new players to home servers.

Ultimately, the problem is aggregated map play time is not multiplied by some factor like PPT match outcome or kills-to-death ratio to determine the more relevant perceived coverage issue.

X T D.6458:

Korgov.7645:

X T D.6458:

Another possible idea would be to have a recipe that allows us to create flax fibers from flax seeds.

Even more boring crafting to fill the war chest? No thanks.

How about we save raw materials into the guild treasury and then we can simply use any upgrade that can be derived from those materials?

Material Promotions are all done through forging, as far as I know, not crafting. It could be done in bulk.

For example a recipe could look like this:
250 flax
1 pile of crystalline dust
5 philosopher stones
1 bottle of elonian wine

could create 10-40 flax fibers

Careful or ANet will require Mystic Coins for those flax fiber recipes instead

Korgov.7645:

Electra.7530:

WvW reward tracks with WvW-oriented rewards don’t encourage more pve players to come to WvW and work toward things they need

Why should WvW Reward Tracks attract (force) PvE players to play WvW instead of what they enjoy playing?

To inflate WvW population and give vets free bags. By definition, as soon as a PvE player joins a WvW map, they are no longer a PvE player. PUG/casual WvW doesn’t matter as it adds to the ANet metrics.

And there is a small benefit that some PvE players may actually enjoy it enough to come back after grinding.

Play the way you want unless you aren’t playing (or paying) everywhere. You can always straight up buy that Legendary from the TP. And you can buy using real money converted to gems and then converted to gold.