Guild Wars 2

Vayne.8563:

Ashen.2907:

Vayne.8563:

Ashen.2907:

Vayne.8563:

This is my argument. It’s not like any other requirement for anything else in the game, because raids DO take far far more effort than anything else in the game. And if you don’t enjoy them, then Anet is requiring you to not enjoy the game.

And yet I don’t enjoy them….ankitten ot required to do them.

You are not required to do them….unless you want legendary armor. This is the truth as we know it so far. There are people working on their legendary sets right now…I happen not to be one of them.

You don’t have to agree with I’m saying, but it doesn’t make it any less valid.

I am not required to do them even if I want legendary armor. There are skins in the PvP rewards track that I want. I don’t like GW2’s sPvP desig and so do not want to participate.

Luckily I am not required to do PvP just because I want something associated with it.

I get that you want something that is gated behind content that you do not want to play. There have been rewards gated behind content that people, including myself, do not want to play since the game launched. This has been part of Anet’s design intention, decisions, and implementation since before the game launched, and was not a secret. Apparently, in the past, this did not seem to impact you (or at least not sufficiently to be worth complaint). Now it, apparently does, and is worth complaint. OK.

Welcome to the club. A message with the club secret handshake and decoder ring is on the way.

As long as Legendary has been set up with features that non-legendary armor does have, as long as stats sets are locked behind one content type that MOST PLAYERS will never access, this game has steered from it’s original course.

You may not think it’s a big deal but this is a lot more than me just wanting something I’ll never have. This is a change of direction from a game that allowed people to work slowly toward something casually, to a game that doesn’t allow people to work slowly toward something.

Today it’s legendary armor and new stat sets for jewelry. But if you’re willing to lock that behind raids today, what happens in the future as more raids are created.

It’s always fun to try to turn an argument into well I want stuff to, so you’re not a special snowflake, but this situation doesn’t actually exist anywhere else in the game. You can get fractal weapon skins only in fractals for example….but fractals take almost no time to play today and more than that, they’re simply skins. They offer no functionality that you can’t get outside of Fractals.

Legendary armor, and ascended stat sets locked behind raids do in fact offer you something you can’t get anywhere else. And the time/cost/effort of doing raids is really different than anything else in the game.

As an example, you can lose in PvP over and over and still further a reward track. You don’t have to get to diamond league even to get a legendary backpack. You can play a PvP match in roughly 15 minutes, so if you’re patient, over time, you can get that legendary backpack. Of course, you can also get a legendary backpack from fractals, even if it’s not in the game yet. It will be soon enough.

Locking any tier of content with features behind the aspect of the game that takes the most time and preparation is only going to serve to alienate people who don’t have the time to spend banging away at something, particularly if not everyone enjoys it.

You can say this is about greed or entitlement and you would be wrong. It’s about a decision Anet made that I’m pretty sure is bad for the game.

If this was only about skins or minis, I’d have no problem with it.

I am not saying that it is about greed or entitlement. I dont think that either apply. There is nothing entitled or greedy about wanting something, or even expressing that want.

What I am saying is that things that players want have been gated behind content that players don’t like since the game launched. This phenomenon is not new. That this would be the case was not a secret.

Feel free to express your concern. Complain as needed. Tell the company what might be done to make you a happy customer again. Its not entitlement. Its not greedy. Its being a responsive consumer. Other people have been doing it since launch.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Ashen.2907:

Although mechanical tension, rather than a chemical reaction, provides the motive force in a crossbow the actual usage is closer to that of a firearm.

You mean in real life.

In Tyria, weapons are focus items for channeling magic powers and bear only artistic resemblance to their Earth equivalents. IRL, a staff can bash in variety of ways; it cannot produce clones, call meteors from the sky, pull or taunt, or be used to leap. Weapons IRL work the same whether wielded by a marine or a plumber.

There’s absolutely no reason why ANet has to follow the same tropes of other games in designing weapons for GW2. We have plenty of ‘longbows’ that look like ‘longbows; I’d be happy to see something like a crossbow for style (although I’m not sure that a legendary is a good place to for outside-the-box thinking, since we get so few of them).

(Hijacking the thread just a bit: similarly, there’s room for creativity in other weapon types: we have lots of greatswords that look like tongue depressors, fire-red torches, scepters that look like mini staffs + staffs that look like kanye-ego-sized scepters, and so on.)

I was not suggesting it based on real life. My central point was that the visual appearance of using a crossbow, by a character in a fantasy game, is closer to that of a gun. Animations, not reality drove my response.

Vayne.8563:

Ashen.2907:

Vayne.8563:

This is my argument. It’s not like any other requirement for anything else in the game, because raids DO take far far more effort than anything else in the game. And if you don’t enjoy them, then Anet is requiring you to not enjoy the game.

And yet I don’t enjoy them….ankitten ot required to do them.

You are not required to do them….unless you want legendary armor. This is the truth as we know it so far. There are people working on their legendary sets right now…I happen not to be one of them.

You don’t have to agree with I’m saying, but it doesn’t make it any less valid.

I am not required to do them even if I want legendary armor. There are skins in the PvP rewards track that I want. I don’t like GW2’s sPvP desig and so do not want to participate.

Luckily I am not required to do PvP just because I want something associated with it.

I get that you want something that is gated behind content that you do not want to play. There have been rewards gated behind content that people, including myself, do not want to play since the game launched. This has been part of Anet’s design intention, decisions, and implementation since before the game launched, and was not a secret. Apparently, in the past, this did not seem to impact you (or at least not sufficiently to be worth complaint). Now it, apparently does, and is worth complaint. OK.

Welcome to the club. A message with the club secret handshake and decoder ring is on the way.

Vayne.8563:

Ashen.2907:

Vayne.8563:

Thaddeus.4891:

Vayne you are right, but the Elite Spec are pretty close to pay to win if you ask me.

Okay I’ve said this many times and not a single person has been able to answer me.

Can you name ANY MMORPG, any at all, that isn’t pay to win if you count expansions. I ask this because I can’t. P2W was always mean to refer to cash shops, not expansions.

Take WoW as an example. WoW raises the level cap with every expansion. That is you become far more powerful each time an expansion comes out, including in PvP. This has been true in every MMO I’ve played.

Expansions are sold and people are expected to buy them to continue to playing the game, even in a subscription game.

Now in Guild Wars 2, there’s less P2W than any other MMO because they didn’t raise the level cap and you can still compete with some builds in PvP.

P2W was meant to denote games that sold power in the cash shop that you couldn’t get in game. It never covered an expansion to my knowledge.

If it did, even Guild Wars 1 was pay to win.

Actually you have been answered in the past when you made this point. It was also pointed out that the same wiki that you have used to support your definition of other MMO terms disagrees with your limited definition of pay to win.

WoW’s expansions add character levels. A character who advances in power level via an expansion in WoW is moving on to higher level content, perhaps including a higher PvP tier where characters at the old power cap are not expected to compete.

In GW2 buying and taking advantage of the supposed (Ihave not seen analysis that demonstrates that the elite specs are objectively more powerful so I say, “supposed.”) Power increase via the expansion remain at the same character level as, in direct competition with, those who do not. WoW attempts to seperate the old power level from the new while GW2 expects old, underpoered, chaacters to compete with the new power cap.

I am not claiming that HoT is pay to win because I dont know for a fact that the elite specs are more powerful. But, if they are, the expansion becomes something for which one pays real money for an advantage over those, with whom one is in direct competition, who do not.

And I’ve answered that. Since WoW does have PvP servers, if you happen to be on a PvP server, you are facing people who are higher level than you with no chance at all to beat them in open world PvP. Open World PvP is maps devoted to PvP that all levels can enter and fight on. Therefore WoW is pay to win.

The only way you can prove it’s not is if you can tell me that people that are level 80 can’t fight peopel that are level 70 that don’t have the expansion. But you can’t tell me that, because it’s not true. On a PvP server higher level players can beat up on lower level players, even if they haven’t bought the expansion. That’s the definition of pay to win you’re using, so if you’re using WoW you’re factually wrong.

There are other advantages people get, ev3en brought up in this very thread, a few posts above this one. You can go into higher zones, come back and PvP on your level 70 character that’s twinked out with better gear from having the expansion, again pay to win.

Saying people have answered it only works if the answers actually fits. Saying you’ve answered it and ignoring the places where WOW is pay to win (by this definition which I don’t agree with anyway) is pointless.

What about non PvP servers?

Leo G.4501:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

(I do have one advantage over Wile, though. I have a glider )

If he doesn’t look down, he won’t fall.

If only he could resist the temptation….

He always looks.

saerni.2584:

A crossbow is a mechanical bow. Not sure how it would be a pistol or a rifle when it fundamentally involves a “bow.”

Because it is held and fired in a manner closer to a rifle (or pistol in the case of a hand crossbow).

Although mechanical tension, rather than a chemical reaction, provides the motive force in a crossbow the actual usage is closer to that of a firearm.

If you were a cute fuzzy bunny and knew that swarms of random, “heroes,” were wandering the region just waiting for an opportunity to kill you, wouldnt you carry a gun too.

Logic son!

DarcShriek.5829:

I just can’t take a game that seriously. When I start to get frustrated I turn the PC off and go outside.

This.

Although I have cursed at the screen before turning off the computer.

Interesting assertions withou supporting facts present. Makes it hard for me to take anything in the post seriously. The core point would have been better made without commentary on the employment decisions of some developers or a reference to, “veterans,” as a whole rather than self or self and immediate friends who share an opinion.

I would expect that, if a crossbow (which is nothing like a steampunk shortbow) were introduced it would be as a rifle or pistol skin due to similar pose and animation of the wielder.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

I…

What….

How…

#NoWords

#ItHurts

Apparently gaming is rocket science, and I’m just a frickin genius.

LanfearShadowflame…suuuuper genius! Move over Wile E. Coyote.

I have never used instant leveling tools in other games. In gw2 I level new characters exclusively via tomes. This is, in no small part, due to the effect of the npe. It made the game smaller, for me, by making the leveling process something to skip.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Any character. Not all characters.

This.

Vayne.8563:

Thaddeus.4891:

Vayne you are right, but the Elite Spec are pretty close to pay to win if you ask me.

Okay I’ve said this many times and not a single person has been able to answer me.

Can you name ANY MMORPG, any at all, that isn’t pay to win if you count expansions. I ask this because I can’t. P2W was always mean to refer to cash shops, not expansions.

Take WoW as an example. WoW raises the level cap with every expansion. That is you become far more powerful each time an expansion comes out, including in PvP. This has been true in every MMO I’ve played.

Expansions are sold and people are expected to buy them to continue to playing the game, even in a subscription game.

Now in Guild Wars 2, there’s less P2W than any other MMO because they didn’t raise the level cap and you can still compete with some builds in PvP.

P2W was meant to denote games that sold power in the cash shop that you couldn’t get in game. It never covered an expansion to my knowledge.

If it did, even Guild Wars 1 was pay to win.

Actually you have been answered in the past when you made this point. It was also pointed out that the same wiki that you have used to support your definition of other MMO terms disagrees with your limited definition of pay to win.

WoW’s expansions add character levels. A character who advances in power level via an expansion in WoW is moving on to higher level content, perhaps including a higher PvP tier where characters at the old power cap are not expected to compete.

In GW2 buying and taking advantage of the supposed (Ihave not seen analysis that demonstrates that the elite specs are objectively more powerful so I say, “supposed.”) Power increase via the expansion remain at the same character level as, in direct competition with, those who do not. WoW attempts to seperate the old power level from the new while GW2 expects old, underpoered, chaacters to compete with the new power cap.

I am not claiming that HoT is pay to win because I dont know for a fact that the elite specs are more powerful. But, if they are, the expansion becomes something for which one pays real money for an advantage over those, with whom one is in direct competition, who do not.

Vayne.8563:

This is my argument. It’s not like any other requirement for anything else in the game, because raids DO take far far more effort than anything else in the game. And if you don’t enjoy them, then Anet is requiring you to not enjoy the game.

And yet I don’t enjoy them….ankitten ot required to do them.

minbariguy.7504:

Gaile Gray.6029:

[SNIP]… But what I’m saying is that while I’ll see if there’s more information to share, this may be a situation where, if changes are made, they roll out without prior announcement.

I guess at this time the most I could say is that this is a known request.

Can someone at least explain why it would even be necessary for these changes to roll out without prior announcement?

It cannot be because ANet doesn’t want to ruin the surprise, since Colin already announced that the changes were coming.

It cannot be because you don’t want to give a specific date, because Colin never gave such a date in the first place (and no one here has asked for a specific date anyway.)

Look, I know; I’ve been pretty salty, and I get that it can be off-putting. But I wasn’t always. There was a time when my post history consisted of thoughtful, measured, optimistic posts (even ones that praised the work you were doing). And I meant every word.

But then the communication started getting just…weird. And this is an example of the kind of communication that has frustrated me to no end.

Like it or not, Colin communicated information. That information is either correct, or it is not.

If it is correct, then there is no reason not to confirm it, since the information is already out there.

If it is not correct, then we have a situation where the impression being given is that ANet is planning to intentionally allow players to believe that information — that was communicated by GW2’s own Game Director — is correct, when internally, they know it is not. And further, they are considering withholding that information right up until the last possible second, where changes are released into the game that may or may not be in line with what was communicated.

Personal feelings aside, Gaile, can you honestly say that you don’t see why some customers resent being treated this way? Does Mike O’Brien honestly not understand the kind of message this kind of communication style sends? I get that ANet wants us to be respectful when we communicate , but I am not getting the feeling that ANet understands that respect is a two-way street.

This.

Colin made the statement. The question is whether or not Anet, in light of Colin’s departure, intends to follow through. The question is not a matter of when. Not a matter of asking Anet to commit to a specific timetable. Just a request that some confirmation, one way or the other, be provided regarding something that ANet has already communicated.

Commentary to the effect of, “we can neither confirm nor deny an intention to follow through on something we have already announced,” does not cast the company in a particularly flattering light.

Obtena.7952:

OK but the ratio of cost to stats increase is itself an objective measure.

Measure of what? What does it measure? The discussion was about worth, which is not measured by that ratio. The ratio is nothing but an obfuscation to cover the fact that the assertion was wrong. Even the ratio itself plays a purely subjective role in determining the worth of the gear. One player can point to it as evidence that the gear is well worth the price while another can use it as evidence that the gear is not worth the price.

I love the claw island mission. Even so, the manner of th mentors’ role in it pretty much killed any positive opinion I might have had of any of the three. An example of poor integration of writing and gameplay in my opinion.

The OP is certain to be correct in asserting that the current implementation of outfits is costing Anet some sales. On the other hand it may be yielding greater profits than the alternatives he proposes. Only Anet has all of the data.

Decaturfist.2507:

I’m a little confused as to why so many people have an issue with spending $50-$75 for HoT.

Would you pay $50-$75 for a nice steak dinner?

I would.

Would you pay $50-$75 for a combo meal at McDonalds?

I wouldn’t.

Sometimes a product just isn’t worth its price to a given customer. Doesn’t mean that the customer is a cheapskate. Doesn’t make him a hater. Just makes him someone who decides what a given product is worth, or not worth, to him.

Obtena.7952:

Avarice.2791:

Obtena.7952:

Avarice.2791:

Cyninja – I mean ascended armor does provide a stat boost however small. Saying it isn’t worth it is a matter of perspective, but mathematically wrong…

Actually if you look at the cost to stats ratio of Exotic and Ascended gear, I think it’s not mathematically wrong at all. In fact, it’s even more evident that Ascended gear is not really worth the cost. It’s a luxury and luxuries are only ‘worth it’ if the cost doesn’t mean much to you.

Sure, but I view 600g +- chests as worth it for the gain in stats as many players do. It’s all perspective and really not up to the player to dictate what groups require. What you are arguing has been discussed above. What I was saying is the gain in stats with always be mathematically beneficial for a group that is progressing.

Yes, but that’s not an objective measure of worth; cost/stats ratio is.

There is no objective measure of worth. Worth is subjective.

To someone with ten million gold a 3% increase in power for the cost of a measly ten thousand gold, a negligible one tenth of one percent of his total wealth, might very well be worth it. Others might consider ten grand for such a minor power increase to be excessive. Yet another millionaire might decide that he did not work his tail off earning such a fortune only to waste it on gear that provides a measly 3% power increase.

Completely subjective.

Vayne.8563:

Heroes really weren’t gated behind content though, not in the sense of something like raids or grind.

Agreed.

As you mention, the Rit took an effort, but nothing on the same scale as a Raid. Gated to specific content, just not overly hard to get through. Then again, I think that GW1 did a better job of teaching players, at least those who stuck with it, to improve their game. By the time people got to some of the more difficult content, the gradual difficulty ramp up had prepared them to some degree.

Of course there were exceptions. Imagine my shock when I discovered that one of my guildies, long after reaching level cap, had never bothered to put points into Soul Reaping on his necro. He was convinced that the game hated him because everyone else had enough energy to get through a fight on their necros while he struggled.

Vayne.8563:

Ashen.2907:

Vayne.8563:

They didn’t push instanced content, they pushed open world content. That’s the point.

And this is still the case.

The raid team is less than 5% of the dev team. Raids are part of HoT and represent a small fraction of the expansion.

I agree with this. It doesn’t really have to do with what I’m talking about in my OP, though. This is simply a response to someone telling me why what I’m saying is essentially wrong. My argument isn’t that raids shouldn’t exist.

My argument is that specific rewards shouldn’t be locked behind them, as in an entire tier of gear, or functionality. They didn’t do it in Guild Wars 1, and I don’t really see the need to do this here.

It doesn’t matter if 1 person works on raids or 100, if people feel disenfranchised by having something in game that they simply can’t get without spending hours doing content they don’t like.

Agreed. In GW1 the only thing gated behind specific endgame content were skins, and heroes (which were a form of functionality).

Still, feelings are feelings. Fun is a feeling. If it is not fun you are less likely to play, spend money, etc. I totally get that.

Personally I would rather see GW1 HA style rank emotes as the special rewards for content. Nothing that would affect your character’s normal appearance, no functionality, but enough cool factor to make pursuing them worthwhile (to me).

Vayne.8563:

They didn’t push instanced content, they pushed open world content. That’s the point.

And this is still the case.

The raid team is less than 5% of the dev team. Raids are part of HoT and represent a small fraction of the expansion.

Vayne.8563:

Storm.1653:

If everyone was given the best stuff Just for participating there would be no progression, nothing to work for and would be very boring for the majority. Once you finish the story, then what?? The game is over?? Trying to get your niche experience from a game not designed for it is kind of crazy Tbh.

But that’s exactly how it was in Guild Wars 1, and Guild Wars 1 did fine that way. Why do you think so many people were annoyed by ascended gear?

In Guild Wars 1 we had elite armors and we had normal armors and they were the same in fuction and stats, the only difference was the skins.

We had great weapon skins like the volatic spear, the celestical compass, but the only difference between that and much cheaper weapons was the skin. There was no difference in functionality at all. It worked for five years for Guild Wars 1 and would have continued working except Anet wanted to make a game to take the world to places they couldn’t do within the confines of Guild Wars 1.

That didn’t have to include tiers of gear locked behind specific content. A really awesome skin would have done the same job.

Amen.

I much prefer the idea of player progression post level cap than gear progression. In GW1, after hitting level cap, the focus for me was on completing stories, getting cool weapon and armor skins, and becoming a better player. Long after I had every skin I could ever want, had completed every mission, had a stockpile of tens of thousands of ectos, etc…I was still working on improving as a player…and it was fun to see my personal progression.

I think that if HoT had been better received the next LS chapter would have seen a sooner release date.

It seems as if fixing elements of HoT (and WvW) are delaying additional content release.

Obtena.7952:

I would hate to see if the armor had visual effects like the weapons do. What a mess that would be.

Agreed.

The weapons are bad enough. This could be truly horrid.

Ohoni.6057:

Why don’t you pay raiders 50s each to run you through raids? I think it’s really sad you push your own interests on every thread and then suggest this for someone who is struggling to find a dungeon group. My 2 cents mate.

I’m just pointing out that asking the devs to bribe other players to play with you is not a positive impact on the game. If people don’t want to do dungeons then they don’t want to do dungeons, and ANet has no incentive to convince them otherwise.

Such as perhaps playing and paying into a different game that they find to be more rewarding.

I don’t think that’s true. The difference of a few gold isn’t likely to make the difference between GW2 and a different game entirely, if they cared that little about GW2 then they wouldn’t care much about a little more gold for their time. It just makes the difference between them playing dungeons or playing some open world meta or something.

If rewards that people feel are worthwhile to them are a bribe, pretty much universally a negative term, then one would not want unique rewards for an easy mode of another type of instanced content. One would play the easy mode because one desires to do so, not because one was bribed into it right?

The reward has to be fair. It has to be enough to make the activity worth doing for people who already want to do it, not too little to be worth bothering with, not too much that it can’t be passed up. I believe you’re implying raid rewards? Raid rewards are currently “too much,” in that they are unique and cannot be found at all elsewhere. this is profoundly unfair to those who have no interest in raids in their current form, so they would either need to be diminished, or there needs to be an alternate method of acquiring them.

Dungeon rewards do not fall into that category, they are “fair,” they are enough that running a dungeon is a productive use of your time, they are not so much (yet) that you feel like you have to run dungeons to keep up with the curve, and they are not so little that running a dungeon is a waste of time. Any more reward on top of the current fair amount would constitute a bribe, and would be more destructive than helpful to the game as a whole.

So its OK for you to be, “bribed,” into playing content, but not anyone else. Got it.

Ohoni.6057:

I get the idea of trophies, but an armor skin is not a trophy, a TROPHY is a trophy. A trophy has no value other than being a trophy, it is not a practical item, or even a cosmetic one.

This is untrue in the real world as well as in games.

A trophy is an object that acts as a symbol of one’s victory, accomplishment, etc.

This can be the weapons of a fallen foe (thousands of years of precedent), a worn cosmetic item (yet again thousands of years of precedent up to and including the current day), the corpse (preferably preserved) of one’s target (thousands of years of precedent, up to and including the present day), and so on. Some trophies have, in addition to cosmetic or practical function, high monetary value beyond that derived from the perceived prestige associated with the item’s symbolism.

All told though, you, as you have stated, believe that players should play the content for the sake of the content itself and that they should not be bribed to do so. So an easy mode, without any of the unique raid rewards, such as legendary armor, should suit you fine. Right?

How would other people feel if raids had an easy mode which offered rewards on a par with dungeons?

Astralporing.1957:

Ashen.2907:

In oldschool fantasy pen and paper RPGs, DnD in particular, the most potent rewards were expected by design to be earned in the equivalent of the most difficult raids/dungeons.

That’s because original DnD started less as a real RPG, and more as dungeon-runner hack’n’slash. The more complex it became with the latter editions, the less of that were present, but still it’s one of the most loot-dependant RPGs out there.

Compare that to, for example, Chaosium’s Runequest from that same time, that put much greather emphasis on personal improvement and quests. Look at White Wolf’s Exalted, where the loot is generally just part of your story, and you can quite possibly go the whole campaign using the same gear you started it with. Look back to Chaosium, to Call of Cthulhu, which is completely story-driven and “loot” is generally used only as a story device.
You are using as a standard the worst the RPG has to offer.

The options you present are of limited, if any, relevance because MMOs (generally), even pre HoT GW2, use loot as part of character advancement. This is precisely why I referenced DnD. The comment responded to was about the best gear loot. Such is not applicable in a game where there is no such thing.

Personally I prefer character development, not loot upgrade advancement, in my PnP RPGs. Call of Cthulhu, Hero System (personal favorite), GURPS, Storyboard (an unknown yet really good super simple, extremely versatile system…look it up), Shadowrun, Cyberpunk, and so on are all fun games where the focus is on the character’s abilities not what he took off the body of a foe. But I was responding to a point about where the best gear loot might be found…

Ohoni.6057:

Basically, if ANet doesn’t bribe people into running dungeons, then those people would prefer to be doing something else.

Such as perhaps playing and paying into a different game that they find to be more rewarding.

Ohoni.6057:

If ANet does bribe them into it,

then perhaps they play and pay into GW more.

If rewards that people feel are worthwhile to them are a bribe, pretty much universally a negative term, then one would not want unique rewards for an easy mode of another type of instanced content. One would play the easy mode because one desires to do so, not because one was bribed into it right?

I didnt see the living world concept as core to the game at launch. The world did not change, beyond limited event cycles, any more than did other games in my opinion. I liked the launch game quite a bit though.

The living world was added later and, seemingly, was a failure on its own. This is why Anet is trying a combination expansion plus LW approach now.

bloodletting wolf.2837:

Vayne.8563:

LyricDawnhagen.7803:

Thanks for writing that Vayne. I am from the same era. I came into gaming via D&D when I arrived in college. It was the stories and interaction that kept me coming back week after week. And that is what still draws me into these (RPG) games. Having the combat be fun to watch and interesting character models are all great eye-candy but it is the story that will keep me involved for the long haul.

I joined my current pen & paper gaming group 31 years ago. The core of the group remains and we have been playing ever since. We often go an entire game session with no combat at all. Just lots of RP with each other and the GM for that night. It’s all about the story and the interaction.

Unfortunately, I moved 10,000 miles away from my pen and paper group, but we were playing for decades as well. 10,000 miles is a bit of a long commute to play a game though.

There are low cost online tools so you can play pen and paper games with your friends no matter how far away they are. TS is also an option – I play a Rifts campaign bi-weekly using TS and the GM making all the rolls. Unlike video games I have never regretted my time spent playing RPG’s.

There are even some freeware online dice rolling programs out there where everyone logged in to your “room” can see the rolls. Free online whiteboard programs can help too.

nanael the angel.2659:

Ashen.2907:

nanael the angel.2659:

Ashen.2907:

nanael the angel.2659:

We can keep having this public circular debate , regarding how we each perceive quotes made by someone else, but I would nt say that’s in the greatest benefit of the forums. After all, none of us can claim anything is absolute and not our opinion, since we are not Colin.
I’ve stated my opinion, and presented a solution I believe might work both for casuals and hardcore.
Now you are free to do the same, explaining why you disagree with adding two levels of difficulty for a raid (with the hard one, giving ALOT of gold, while the other yielding no gold, but both keeping the same rewards), and elaborate from there.
Based on constructive feedback, devs will be informed and act accordingly.
We can’t change what has been done, but we can affect and alter the changes that are yet to come to pass.
Keep it precise, keep it accurate, keep it civil and keep it clean.
Later o/

Actually my claims are objective, not subjective. Legendary gear is not more powerful than ascended. They are objectively, measurably, numerically identical in power. I have kept it precise by avoiding misrepresenting facts in order to support an opinion.

One does not need to be Colin in order to accurately quote him any more than one needs to be Pythagoras to use his theorem.

Really? Then how do you know he is referring to Ascended gear (which did not even exist back then) and not legendary gear, or even both?
Since both are “numerically identical in power” how do you so easily distinguish which gear set he means, when and If, as you say, he is only referring to best stats?
Claiming it’s one, not the other or even both sure seems pretty subjective to me.
Anyway, have a nice day that is my ultimate reply to you as well.

He said, “most powerful.” You dont need to distiguish between ascended and legendary in reference to most powerful because there is no difference in power between ascended an legendary. Zero. None. This is not opinion, this is mathematical, objective fact. If you choose to believe that he meant, “not the most powerful,” when he said, “the most powerful,” that is your prerogative.

1 = 1 is not, “pretty subjective.”

All of that said, you are entitled to your opinion. My niece is of the opinion that my father in law is a million years old. So 65 = 1,000,000.

A and B are both black
We want something that fits the description “black”
You say it is A and just A , not B not a possibility of it being A or B , or even A and B.

Read my previous posts, I never said “not the most powerful”
You say he refairs to top stats, and call it ascended, yet you claim both ascended and legendaries have the same stats,which are top, but keep saying it is ascended, and not legendaries or a possible combination.

You state part of the truth, that SUBJECTIVELY fits your opinion, carefully dismiss the other possibilities and call it accurate facts….
Think I’ll just let others draw their own conclusions from there

I never said that his statement of, “most powerful,” did not include legendary. I have repeatedly said that legendary and ascended are exactly equal in power. You can be outfitted with gear that has no superior level of power in the game without raiding. There is no gear power level gated behind raiding for the simple fact that the same exact power level is available without raiding. What is exclusive to raids is not power. It is the same level of power that can be gained elsewhere, with a different skin and a QoL feature (that I freely admit I am of the opinion is of questinable merit without some sort of frr rune switching mechanic). So raids gate a skin and stat switching on armor, but not power.

Essentially, Legendary weapons, for purpose of power, are ascended tier with a QoL feature tacked on.

If legendary weapons or armor added a free rune/sigil switching function I might actually seek them out (even if I would then reskin them so that I could stand looking at my character) just to free up space in my inventory and bank.

Dashingsteel.3410:

I enjoyed the marionette and save Lion’s Arch events…… I can’t remember anything in season 2 that I liked

Ahh, perhaps I missed out then. By the time those were up the previous chapters had driven me from the game.

I still think that the living world is a truly great concept and really hope that Anet will, someday, be able to live up to its potential.

I am very glad for those who enjoyed either of the seasons though. My own dislike is not meant to be taken as a claim that they lacked merit, only that they were offputting to me.

Dashingsteel.3410:

I really enjoyed your post Vayne. I come from a pencil and paper rpg background as well. While reading your post, I began to realize why I enjoyed season 1 living story so much more than season 2 living story. Season 1 was filled with exciting world events that changed the world. Season 2 seemed to be more about grinding AP points by repeating each story chapter ad nauseam.

I also think this is what turns me off about HoT. The Meta event map idea focuses on one story over and over map wide. Most of the core gw2 maps have multiple stories going on that are totally unrelated. There seems to be more discovery and story awaiting in the core maps than in the HoT maps to me.

It just seems like content from Anet whether it be maps, achievement points, and story is relying more and more on the “rinse and repeat” philosophy. It may be cheaper to produce content like that but it seems dull and tedious.

This is why I dont actively pursue AP. Repetition for the sake of being able to say, “I repeated something”, just isnt interesting.

To me S1 was filled with annoying and/boring world events, characters, and story that led me to take a break from the game until it was over. It actively detracted from the game as a whole for me.

S2 still had characters I disliked, and it required my character to become a murderer, and required me to play a character, race, profession, and build that didnt interest me…..hmmm, never mind. As much as some of the instances were fun from a gameplay standpoint, comparing the two seasons is like trying to determine which puddle f horse urine smelled better.

nanael the angel.2659:

Ashen.2907:

nanael the angel.2659:

We can keep having this public circular debate , regarding how we each perceive quotes made by someone else, but I would nt say that’s in the greatest benefit of the forums. After all, none of us can claim anything is absolute and not our opinion, since we are not Colin.
I’ve stated my opinion, and presented a solution I believe might work both for casuals and hardcore.
Now you are free to do the same, explaining why you disagree with adding two levels of difficulty for a raid (with the hard one, giving ALOT of gold, while the other yielding no gold, but both keeping the same rewards), and elaborate from there.
Based on constructive feedback, devs will be informed and act accordingly.
We can’t change what has been done, but we can affect and alter the changes that are yet to come to pass.
Keep it precise, keep it accurate, keep it civil and keep it clean.
Later o/

Actually my claims are objective, not subjective. Legendary gear is not more powerful than ascended. They are objectively, measurably, numerically identical in power. I have kept it precise by avoiding misrepresenting facts in order to support an opinion.

One does not need to be Colin in order to accurately quote him any more than one needs to be Pythagoras to use his theorem.

Really? Then how do you know he is referring to Ascended gear (which did not even exist back then) and not legendary gear, or even both?
Since both are “numerically identical in power” how do you so easily distinguish which gear set he means, when and If, as you say, he is only referring to best stats?
Claiming it’s one, not the other or even both sure seems pretty subjective to me.
Anyway, have a nice day that is my ultimate reply to you as well.

He said, “most powerful.” You dont need to distiguish between ascended and legendary in reference to most powerful because there is no difference in power between ascended an legendary. Zero. None. This is not opinion, this is mathematical, objective fact. If you choose to believe that he meant, “not the most powerful,” when he said, “the most powerful,” that is your prerogative.

1 = 1 is not, “pretty subjective.”

All of that said, you are entitled to your opinion. My niece is of the opinion that my father in law is a million years old. So 65 = 1,000,000.

nanael the angel.2659:

We can keep having this public circular debate , regarding how we each perceive quotes made by someone else, but I would nt say that’s in the greatest benefit of the forums. After all, none of us can claim anything is absolute and not our opinion, since we are not Colin.
I’ve stated my opinion, and presented a solution I believe might work both for casuals and hardcore.
Now you are free to do the same, explaining why you disagree with adding two levels of difficulty for a raid (with the hard one, giving ALOT of gold, while the other yielding no gold, but both keeping the same rewards), and elaborate from there.
Based on constructive feedback, devs will be informed and act accordingly.
We can’t change what has been done, but we can affect and alter the changes that are yet to come to pass.
Keep it precise, keep it accurate, keep it civil and keep it clean.
Later o/

Actually my claims are objective, not subjective. Legendary gear is not more powerful than ascended. They are objectively, measurably, numerically identical in power. I have kept it precise by avoiding misrepresenting facts in order to support an opinion.

One does not need to be Colin in order to accurately quote him any more than one needs to be Pythagoras to use his theorem.

Is the record for a 50 yard dash invalid because the runners do not complete a marathon?

What is being meaured in that record does not include the skipped elements any more than a sprint record is not measuring the stamina needed to run 26 miles.

That said, I personally don’t care as much for a record that involves such accepted speedrun tactics any more than I do short distance sprinting records.

Vayne.8563:

Ashen.2907:

In oldschool fantasy pen and paper RPGs, DnD in particular, the most potent rewards were expected by design to be earned in the equivalent of the most difficult raids/dungeons. That Hackmaster +12 would be taken from the hoard of the biggest, baddest, most challenging boss at the end of a series of increasingly difficult encounters.

The repetition thing…yeah, but a GM in a pen and paper game, in general, has more ability to write new, “playable content”, that doesnt involve repeating last week’s adventure for his weekly group to enjoy. Some posters on these forums have listed play times that equate to 8-10 hours a day, 7 days a week, since launch over 3 years ago. I have never met a pen an paper GM, myself included, who could meet that demand with new content.

When I GMed I did a lot of stuff on the fly. Obviously programmers can’t do this, so your point is valid.

But I’m quite tired of people assuming that because I don’t want to raid, I’m lazy. It’s not my thing because it was NEVER my thing.

As for the most potent rewards, that’s not a rule at all and never happened with our games. You could get anything anywhere, in much the same way you could get a precursor killing a deer in Queensdale.

That was how the game was originally designed. Sure you had to do dungeons to get legendaries, but you didn’t have to devote huge amounts of time to get through a dungeon. What the program is asking for here is to do something that requires quite an investment in time and energy to get something. Dungeons really didn’t do that. It’s taken the commitment level to new heights.

Some might find that fine, but I don’t. Not three years into a game.

To be clear, I do not consider a lack of interest in raiding to be an indication of laziness. I dislike the implementation of pvp in GW2 so I dont play it. Not because I am lazy, but because it isnt fun for me. This has the unfortunate side effect of meaning that I will (according to current design) never get the only medium torso armor skin in the game that I actually like (for my main.).

Oldschool PnP codified treasure drops through drop tables tied to montser power level. Getting the most powerful loot (or in excessive quantity) otherwise had a derogatory term associated with it that survives to this day. Monty Haul rewards, where you could get that Hackmaster +12 from anything in game, at essentially any level, notoriously by killing a single kobold, was within a GM’s power, but outside of the codified rules of the genre’s original examples.

To be clear, I have no interest in legendary armor myself. I do like the idea of distinct rewards acting as trophies for distinct activities. Grinding/Gathering mats to craft your rewards devalues anything the reward might have meant to me had it been a matter of overcoming a challenge. I suppose staving off boredom or burnout while engaging in repetitive mindless drudgery is a form of challenge, but not oe that lends itself to a sense of accomplishment appropriate to a trophy for me. “Hey, I managed to not log off for a long time,” is not an accomplishment to me.

If I had my druthers, the top rewards would be more like HA emotes in GW1. Cool looking, kind of exciting, but not tied to your character’s normal appearance.

nanael the angel.2659:

Ashen.2907:

nanael the angel.2659:

IndigoSundown.5419:

nanael the angel.2659:

IndigoSundown.5419:

nanael the angel.2659:

This game started as a game advertised to casual players, where you could play even abit and never miss out on anything.

From a 2011 interview with Colin.

“The rare stuff becomes the really awesome looking armours. It’s all about collecting the unique looking stuff and collecting all the other rare collectable items in the game: armour pieces, potentially different potions – a lot of that is still up in the air and we’ll finalise a lot of those reward systems as we get closer to release. And those come off of things like the bosses at the end of dungeons – the raids.”

That’s how the game started. The thing is, dungeons never made it as raid substitutes.

I think that raid exclusive items are fine, especially if they’re skins. The problem, I think is legendary items. They were marketed as the only real endgame, long-term goal. Their original implementation required doing some dungeons – -which ANet thought of as taking the place of raids. However, those dungeons were reasonably accessible and the Legendary weapons could be bought, anyway. This created the expectation that Legendary items are grindy, but doable as “play how you want” goals.

Had dungeons turned out the way ANet envisioned them, and had they used Account Bound on L. items at the start, we’d have been having this conversation about accessibility 3+ years ago.

So, no. There was never a promise that you could play a bit (and do whatever you want) and never miss out on anything.

I don’t see anywhere from your post, Colin claiming they were intended just for the hardcore crowd.
All I see is, they were planning to add armor skins as dungeon path rewards , which they did.
Saying stuff was too easy and did not turn out as planned still remains your own words, and is no where to be found in the post you quoted so far.

You must have missed, “And those come off of things like the bosses at the end of dungeons – the raids.” Explorable dungeons paths were originally aimed at “coordinated teams of skilled players.” That he thought of dungeons as raid equivalents should tell you something. That they turned out easier, especially after more than 3 years, well, that’s a player thing.

But, if you’re going to play it that way, you should provide a citation where ANet said players could get any reward they wanted easily and doing whatever content they preferred. Don’t take my word that you won’t find one.

Unless I am blind the " Explorable dungeons paths were originally aimed at “coordinated teams of skilled players.” Is no where to be seen in your first quote, since it stops at “…dungeons – the raids.”
And again, they did deliver, dungeon rewards work that way.
You can argue as much as you want about the nature of skill involved, but it does not change the fact that dungeons and their rewards were implemented as we know them.

Now, let me show you something as well https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/colin-johanson-on-guild-wars-2-in-the-months-ahead/

“To make playing in our open world worthwhile, we’ll make it rewarding enough for players to spend their time there across all levels. It’s extremely important that we stay true to our philosophy that you should be able to play Guild Wars 2 the way you want to play the game in order to reach the most powerful rewards.”

They aimed this to be a casual game, and that’s the reason so many people consider it one. You can argue it’s in open world, but according to this, the most powerful rewards, legendary ones I’d guess, were aimed to be accessed by anyone.

Either way, my suggestion regarding raids, was to implement two levels of difficulty, with one, giving ALOT of gold, while the other yielding no gold, but both keeping the same rewards, which, again, is not any different from the way they’ve handled rewards thus far.

PS. It’s abit unfortunate we have to result to quotes just to keep backing up claims in a GAMING forum, but so be it. (Sure hope we won’t have to follow the format of “Abstract” ,“Introduction”, “Materials and Methods” , “Results”, “Discussion” and “Bibliography” in the near future …or it would make my posts even longer )

This is my last reply to you, take no offense over it, I just find that it took way more time than it should have, when the purpose was just to express an opinion, a thought.
Have a nice day.

“The most powerful,” gear in GW2 is the ascended tier. It is attained through crafting, or playing pretty much any content in the game (admittedly with a low drop rate). Some of it can be, “earned,” by just logging in. The only way in which raids interact with, “the most powerful rewards,” comment is that they are one, of many, avenues for attaining it.

That sadly is inaccurate.
Check the date of this post. Back then , we had exotic and after which legendary, there was no ascended. Ascended got added at a later date, and, before you claim they were referring to exotics (which had always been easily acquired, as intended) , legendaries, even the currently added ones require open world, first generation ones did, those new ones do.
Anyhow, the statement is clear, "the MOST’ , not ONE of the most. By this alone, they are referring to their top tier gear, which has always been, legendary, hence their classification.

Legendary is not more powerful than ascended. When ascended was added legendary was increased in power to match it. Legendary is a skin, with a QoL feature of questionable merit.

In oldschool fantasy pen and paper RPGs, DnD in particular, the most potent rewards were expected by design to be earned in the equivalent of the most difficult raids/dungeons. That Hackmaster +12 would be taken from the hoard of the biggest, baddest, most challenging boss at the end of a series of increasingly difficult encounters.

The repetition thing…yeah, but a GM in a pen and paper game, in general, has more ability to write new, “playable content”, that doesnt involve repeating last week’s adventure for his weekly group to enjoy. Some posters on these forums have listed play times that equate to 8-10 hours a day, 7 days a week, since launch over 3 years ago. I have never met a pen an paper GM, myself included, who could meet that demand with new content.

Content exclusive rewards are used as trohpies indicating success in that content. Trophies exist to provide some element of prestige or to act as a symbol of the accomplishment, without providing any form of advantage in the activities where they are earned. If the trophy can be gained without success in the content in question, such as by playing in a reduced difficulty mode, then the reward no longer fulfills its intended purpose. Some times a reward can be earned in different activities, but the trophy aspect can be preserved, intheory, by restricting the alternate methods of acquisition to activities of similar difficulty. Personally I would prefer that different trophies be used in such circumstances (dungeon armor from PvP reward tracks for example).

nanael the angel.2659:

IndigoSundown.5419:

nanael the angel.2659:

IndigoSundown.5419:

nanael the angel.2659:

This game started as a game advertised to casual players, where you could play even abit and never miss out on anything.

From a 2011 interview with Colin.

“The rare stuff becomes the really awesome looking armours. It’s all about collecting the unique looking stuff and collecting all the other rare collectable items in the game: armour pieces, potentially different potions – a lot of that is still up in the air and we’ll finalise a lot of those reward systems as we get closer to release. And those come off of things like the bosses at the end of dungeons – the raids.”

That’s how the game started. The thing is, dungeons never made it as raid substitutes.

I think that raid exclusive items are fine, especially if they’re skins. The problem, I think is legendary items. They were marketed as the only real endgame, long-term goal. Their original implementation required doing some dungeons – -which ANet thought of as taking the place of raids. However, those dungeons were reasonably accessible and the Legendary weapons could be bought, anyway. This created the expectation that Legendary items are grindy, but doable as “play how you want” goals.

Had dungeons turned out the way ANet envisioned them, and had they used Account Bound on L. items at the start, we’d have been having this conversation about accessibility 3+ years ago.

So, no. There was never a promise that you could play a bit (and do whatever you want) and never miss out on anything.

I don’t see anywhere from your post, Colin claiming they were intended just for the hardcore crowd.
All I see is, they were planning to add armor skins as dungeon path rewards , which they did.
Saying stuff was too easy and did not turn out as planned still remains your own words, and is no where to be found in the post you quoted so far.

You must have missed, “And those come off of things like the bosses at the end of dungeons – the raids.” Explorable dungeons paths were originally aimed at “coordinated teams of skilled players.” That he thought of dungeons as raid equivalents should tell you something. That they turned out easier, especially after more than 3 years, well, that’s a player thing.

But, if you’re going to play it that way, you should provide a citation where ANet said players could get any reward they wanted easily and doing whatever content they preferred. Don’t take my word that you won’t find one.

Unless I am blind the " Explorable dungeons paths were originally aimed at “coordinated teams of skilled players.” Is no where to be seen in your first quote, since it stops at “…dungeons – the raids.”
And again, they did deliver, dungeon rewards work that way.
You can argue as much as you want about the nature of skill involved, but it does not change the fact that dungeons and their rewards were implemented as we know them.

Now, let me show you something as well https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/colin-johanson-on-guild-wars-2-in-the-months-ahead/

“To make playing in our open world worthwhile, we’ll make it rewarding enough for players to spend their time there across all levels. It’s extremely important that we stay true to our philosophy that you should be able to play Guild Wars 2 the way you want to play the game in order to reach the most powerful rewards.”

They aimed this to be a casual game, and that’s the reason so many people consider it one. You can argue it’s in open world, but according to this, the most powerful rewards, legendary ones I’d guess, were aimed to be accessed by anyone.

Either way, my suggestion regarding raids, was to implement two levels of difficulty, with one, giving ALOT of gold, while the other yielding no gold, but both keeping the same rewards, which, again, is not any different from the way they’ve handled rewards thus far.

PS. It’s abit unfortunate we have to result to quotes just to keep backing up claims in a GAMING forum, but so be it. (Sure hope we won’t have to follow the format of “Abstract” ,“Introduction”, “Materials and Methods” , “Results”, “Discussion” and “Bibliography” in the near future …or it would make my posts even longer )

This is my last reply to you, take no offense over it, I just find that it took way more time than it should have, when the purpose was just to express an opinion, a thought.
Have a nice day.

“The most powerful,” gear in GW2 is the ascended tier. It is attained through crafting, or playing pretty much any content in the game (admittedly with a low drop rate). Some of it can be, “earned,” by just logging in. The only way in which raids interact with, “the most powerful rewards,” comment is that they are one, of many, avenues for attaining it.

Vayne.8563:

We know that Anet is working on mega server issues. They can’t fix them faster than they can fix them because it’s a large undertaking. It’s not like Anet has said they’re doing nothing about this and, in the mean time, there’s a working solution.

Must admit that I was glad to hear that, after (close to) two years, Anet are working on megaserver issues.

There is one key component needed to, “fix’” dungeons that just does not exist. A desire on Anet’s part to do so.

Distaste.4801:

What do people have to complain about? How about the amount of content and “features” you get simply isn’t worth the price? FFXIV offered far more content and mechanics for a lower price. WvW got a map that was absolutely terrible, its like they saw the complaints about EotM and thought they were complinents. How about when ArenaNet said that new specs wouldn’t be alpha specs, but for the most part they are. How about them taking content that was available pre-HoT and gating it behind HoT content?

I think the most frustrating thing is that people might have expected things to change after HoT released. Sadly though we are back in the same old rut, extremely slow updates that only focus on one area of the game and questionable implementations.

Or the style of content in HoT being a disappointment for some.

Or that some people who paid for the expansion were told after Anet had their money that some of the features mentioned in the sales pitch would not be delivered well after the expansion.

Plenty of reasons for peope to complain, but then someone was going to complain no matter what.

Anet requested that I cease spending money in the gem store some time back. There are a few items in the gem that appeal to me but I am not currently inclined to convert my gold to gems.

The only way for reward access to be without, “consequences,” would be for all rewards to be gained without playing any content at all….But there is a consequence for that as well. Rewards that dont feel as if they have been earned dont feel rewarding (to some people).

(Some) players being upset is not necessarily an indication that Anet did anything wrong. There is nothing that they could do that wont upset some people. For example, adding an easy mode or difficulty settings for raids would upset some people. By the logic used by some posters here that means that adding these options would be doing someting wrong.

And, by the way, the word, “fault,” is being misused here.