Guild Wars 2

insanemaniac.2456:

ok so not to tell you youre wrong, but keep in mind that “too easy” for you isnt necessarily a good gauge. the arms were a pug killer to the point where some of the more casual longtime players in my guild spent over 4 hours just doing no pain no gain cliffside and thauma 2 nights ago. just so they could have core fractal hero completed. i know exactly what was going on in that run, even though i was only there until they got to the arm seals and wiped once (except me) and i had to sleep. its been the same for them every time they do cliffside in the last 3 years, and its entirely intimidated some of them out of doing the higher scales. (which would be ok if they ever intended to pug fractals, but in general they wont even start a fractal or a dungeon without 5 of their own, so it really just means they miss out on one of the cheaper methods to acquire best in slot gear and resort to crafting)

as another person used to carrying the arm seals, im very glad for the changes to them. my flavor of carrying was bringing an engi and designating myself to pull one side so it never regenned, and i could afford to let people have the crutch of a partner or 2 on the unpulled side.

I certainly dont want back to what we had. I’d just wish there was some sort of tactics required.
It did happen to be a good (pug) team, but we were literally able to run far with two people whilst three of us stayed directly at close and killed of the spawns.

D/D novadays usually means you run condi, are immobile af, and spam one skill for constant evades.
You are the most hated thing amongst inexperienced players or builds you counter, you will regulary get pm’s how ‘cheesy’ you are, and every decent higher tier player should be able to focus you down as you touch the ground.
So yeah…a couple of people play dd, some are successful with it, but its not really fun to play. Neither for you, nor for your opponent.

Power dd might maybe work in wvw, not in spvp im afraid.

Actually its not as bad as I suspected. I still believe mesmers, revs and eles need a nerf, and I still believe the gamedesign of spam, healing and autoprocs is unhealthy…
But as of now the patch is playable. A lot of people are just trying to figure the meta out and play experimental stuff, thats a big part of why its fun.
But all in all the patch seems to be ok.
If they shave down the three beforementioned just a little the next season should be alright.
They can still work on the underlying problems as soon as inter-class balance is achieved and stable.
Yet. If some crazy new meta build pops up in the next weeks, I hope they wont just let them run rampage as they did last time. Mid season balance patches are OK, as long as they are fixing immediate, outstanding issues that shouldnt be ignored.

I have (obviously) not gotten to play many cliffsides since the patch, but so far

Beginning to arm seals:
It was ok. The way up seemed a little to easy, but also less frustrating. The path between the seals was just…running up, you could add a little more challenge to that, but alright.
The lowest were obviously not much of a challenge, wouldnt mind if spawns or health would be increased a little.
The chest seal was really nicely done. The cultists are dangerous but killable, the stacking is gone for now and you have to move well. Its also nice to not take so long.
Really good job on chest.

Arm seals.
The probably most feared part of cliffside if not of fotm.
Now: easy. You dont even need to stack anymore, we were able to run as a group and even do a short 2-3 split for 82.
Now, I liked the old way, it was challenging. Its a little too easy now, I would appreciate if the need to be able to solo the far seal would become valuable once more.
It made certain classes (like my thief) shine in less used areas (stealth)
Its nice you got rid of the need to stack behind that wall, it will also decrease the impact of social akwardness and last laugh I hope.
The fact that it is much faster and much smoother now is great.
If you find a way to promote special tactics a little more without interrupting the flow of the game, i’d be grateful.

Now, to the boss.
This one is really nice. I guess thats what you talked about when you wanted to implement raid mechanics to fotm.
We wiped ~2 times trying to figure out the mechanics. After that it went pretty well.
The animation for the aoe slam is good for an attack, but a little too short to actually kill the breakbar with an uncoordinated team. You have exactly enough time to notice it and dodge, but usually not enough time to put some hard cc on it. But that might just be a matter of practice.
The small swing at <50% threshold is kinda op. It is almost not telegraphed and kills most players in one hit, even with a fractal defensive potion.
We spent a lot of time powerressing whenever the skill was used.
Either put a little bit longer animation on it, or disable the ability to use it two times in a row. (He downed one player, and then immediately killed him and downed the one who tried to ress)

All in all: Im really happy with the changes. I never really disliked the old cliffside, but now it is actually fun. Could require a little more coordination on the way up and a little less damage on the bossfight tho.

Turns out there is always someone on this forum who completely disagrees with what I say and has to tell me Im wrong.
So go ahead.
Alternatively just post your own impressions and feedback.^^

75. Besides: its not that bad. And for a t3 daily you should invest some more time and skill than the stupid mossman.

Quadox.7834:

Asrat.2645:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Asrat.2645:

Increase blurred frenzy cooldown by 2-3 seconds.
Only gain access to deja vu if you successfully block 3+ attacks, decrease deja vu activation window by 3s.
Distortion only applies if the shatter successfully hits a foe.
Mental defender icd: 12s
Activating a skill now ends any currently active effect of the skill.

Thats all we need. Some decrease in invulnerability uptime. Some counterplay.
I didnt take your condi application, I didnt take illusionary reversion or chronphantasma (even tho I gladly would).
I didnt even take the split moa, only the double moa.
Further adjustments may be made as needed.

Another short sighted balance attempt that can’t look past this one build. Good job.

Just look at your Distortion idea. An F4 skill that doesnt activate when F4 is pushed? What are we? Barbarians from the days of Mesmer pre self counted as a clone, without the illusion line, bug effect and all? A history lesson is necessary here.

This one build is the only thing that annoys me. Im totally fine with other mesmers.
And: On noes, we actually have to hit a skill to get the benefits from it. Unthinkable!

Ross biddle obviously meant that you don’t consider builds like shatter when you made these uttely terribad suggestions. You misinterpreted it; your comment of “This one build is the only thing that annoys me. Im totally fine with other mesmers.” has no relevance.

Furthermore, an invulnerability skill that activates when you hit a skill? You tell me “unthinkable” so please go ahead and name all the other invulns the require you to hit an opponent. Ironically taking the condi application, illusionary reversion or chronphantasma as you pride yourself in doing, would be better than some of the things you proposed. The only thing that has any merit is phantasmal defender trait cd and shield block nerf.

Ok, you got a point here.
So. Do you think 3 seconds of invulnerability on demand, instant recharge on demand and theoretically usable with continuum split is a good idea?
Invulnerability should be the very rarest form of damage denial to get.
So lets just say, ok. My idea was a dumb one. Fine.
What would you do? Leave the skill unchanged? Focus the nerfs on conditions instead of power?
And I dont see a problem with my last suggestion. The obvious way to go would be to make cs not affect elites. But if they wanted that, they would have done it with this patch. It was so obvious a choice, that only a concious decision can explain why the change didnt happen.
But we all agree (i think) that split moa or at least double moa has to go.

Ross Biddle.2367:

Asrat.2645:

Increase blurred frenzy cooldown by 2-3 seconds.
Only gain access to deja vu if you successfully block 3+ attacks, decrease deja vu activation window by 3s.
Distortion only applies if the shatter successfully hits a foe.
Mental defender icd: 12s
Activating a skill now ends any currently active effect of the skill.

Thats all we need. Some decrease in invulnerability uptime. Some counterplay.
I didnt take your condi application, I didnt take illusionary reversion or chronphantasma (even tho I gladly would).
I didnt even take the split moa, only the double moa.
Further adjustments may be made as needed.

Another short sighted balance attempt that can’t look past this one build. Good job.

Just look at your Distortion idea. An F4 skill that doesnt activate when F4 is pushed? What are we? Barbarians from the days of Mesmer pre self counted as a clone, without the illusion line, bug effect and all? A history lesson is necessary here.

This one build is the only thing that annoys me. Im totally fine with other mesmers.
And: On noes, we actually have to hit a skill to get the benefits from it. Unthinkable!

Didnt you read the patch notes? They added a new type of ‘deep fog’ when the 11:30 mark is hit. (you should probably submit a bug report, doesnt do much on the forums, nice screenshots tho)

Increase blurred frenzy cooldown by 2-3 seconds.
Only gain access to deja vu if you successfully block 3+ attacks, decrease deja vu activation window by 3s.
Distortion only applies if the shatter successfully hits a foe.
Mental defender icd: 12s
Activating a skill now ends any currently active effect of the skill.

Thats all we need. Some decrease in invulnerability uptime. Some counterplay.
I didnt take your condi application, I didnt take illusionary reversion or chronphantasma (even tho I gladly would).
I didnt even take the split moa, only the double moa.
Further adjustments may be made as needed.

Eastcorn.5901:

Really not sure what utility #9 should be.

Shadowstep? Disengage, deception,stunbreak, cleanse and double gap opener.

Condi based for power traps? You aint makin any sense.
However, I dont think the dh traps fit thief even remotely. Big, flashy aoe effects.
But if our current traps would simply work with some more direct damage and maybe a little better cc than a 3 sec knockdown that gets broken right away…who knows.

Ahh, so it lasts. ok then.

Well. Swiftness was already a 100% uptime with dash alone, I dont see how this is gamechanging.
And vigor…Someone did the math for this, i believe its like 1 dodge in 25 seconds from feline grace.(+1,25% regen) It aint ‘overbuffed’
The boonsteal is pretty nice. Now that we are buffed and reaper is nerfed, it might become an actual combat role for some scenarios.

Now, this has been discussed before.
But I really, seriously, truely and sincerely think there is no way around it.
If you wish to accomplish a balanced, playable game in the next years this is the only option you have left.
Actually for this balance patch it does not seem to be an issue. Seem
The problem here is: you did not do anything against the sustainability of so many classes, all classes actually. And how could you? If a class does not have access to tons of invulnerabilities, damage reductions, stability and can heal twice their health in a single encounter minimum, they will just get ripped apart by a mindless storm of aoe.
You need to tone down both damage output and denial to make this game remotely skill based, but if you did so in pve you’d have to readjust raids, fractals etc entirely.
In other words: if 2 classes both perform on 9000 its fair, but not neccessarely balanced. Neither good design.
For example player skill could only have an impact of +-50
Why not just put both back to 100 and let the players play the game, not the classes.

You said you wish to avoid skill splitting because it ‘causes powercreep’, what exactly do you call your current solution?

Im concerned: I havent checked it, but can it be seen by other players to determine how much initiative we have?

Zelda.6325:

No, DO NOT buff DH, please. It’s fine as it is. Instead nerf the rest, especially mesmer rev etc.

+1 that.
Dragonhunter changes were fine. They nerfed a little too powerful skill whilst promoting some less used options.
Unfortunately they forgot the first part foe ele and mesmer. And they also forgot rev completely.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/44dli8/actual_dps_comparison_between_classesguard_ele/

I like linking that one.

Im kinda refreshing the patchnotes. Maybe they just forgot to add the obviously needed changes reducing powercreep.

Well. the power damage reduction I can write you a book about. It will probably be banned from most countries due to inappropiate language tho.
But thats why im talking about a theoretical past-patch usage.
The lich form is only one of the strongest examples. Being able to easily gain a near-100% crit chance in reaper, and 70% with nothing but some vulnerability and fury could potentially be very powerful on a valkyrie build.

You should be fine for fractals. Depending on your profession you will miss something compared to others, but it wont render you unable to play endgame content.
In Spvp getting anywhere without elitespecs is possible but extremely hard. If you want to be truly competitive, you probably need them.
But todays patch may finally change that.

To be fair most of us thought so.
Mesmer was considered a class to be carried for big parts of the season…and then cronophantasma arrived.

Ok, first of all I wanted to note that im by no means a necro player, so excuse me if I did some fatal miscalculation.
Second: what am I doing here? Some post, in some other classes subforum stated, that a reaper can maintain a 100% critchance without precision. So I went to the build editor and played around.
this is the build, but it is not of interest as of now. Its just theorycrafting, and I don’t know the class. You don’t have to comment on the build.
However, what I found most interesting is the fact, that it should be fairly easy to maintain 25 stacks of vulnerability on a target, at least for a few seconds.
Necro by itself has a lot of access to vulnerability, a lot of other professions passively apply it on some skills. Its a widespread, long lasting condition and usually people don’t use expensive cleanses if the conditions are non-damaging. Especially not if theres a reaper lurking nearby, ready to apply a condi burst.
A lot of players may simply don’t pay enough attention to even notice the 25 stacks.

So, I will also assume you can maintain fury. I use the rune of rage to assure that, but even your teams group boons should suffice. I have also built in 5 stacks of might, just for the records.
The rune of rage bonus, the close to death and strength of the undead I have proxied with a flat 20% increase.
If you didn’t look at the build I use the power and ferocity of a valkyrie set.

Now, for the actual calculation: Im talking about the lich transformation. Auto stability, making it hard to stop you from doing what you wish to do, and a set of strong skills, uptime of ~1/7
Deathly claws on this build deals 2257 flat damage, has a 0,75 sec cast time, 1200 range, and pierces multiple targets.
With the 20% damage approximation and the vulnerability the skill has a 70% chance to crit for 7448 damage. Thats enormous for a ranged auto-attack.

All of this would be fine if the build was an OTP, but it isn’t. All you need is one elite skill slot, a couple of traits you usually want on a power build and some successful hits to build up vulnerability.
You still have moderate damage output, 30k health, extremely good access to life force, massive chill application as soft cc, access to some boon corruptions and nearly 100% crit chance in reapers shroud.

Now I realize at the moment condi reapers are much stronger and the power creep makes power builds unplayable, but the patch is inbound within hours.
So. Its you people who play this class, and there certainly is a reason for lich form to be rarely seen on the battlefield. But: is it possible that, in the near future, not this very build, but this mechanic could be exploited?

Shouldnt it be possible to find most of it on Yt? Everything is somewhere on the internet.
You can just use ytdl and convert to mp3.
If you miss a few songs it should not hurt too much. And just entering a random song name from the wiki brought the expected result.

Better than nothing at least.

It kinda proves what we have been saying all along. No matter how useful you can make a thief, how much you rotate and how hard you try, in the end of a day a profession that has to avoid fights is not viable in a competitive enviroment.

But anyways. I’d all day rather watch an interesting matchup of people who play their own classes instead of some meta blop that is only the typical league performance on higher level.
They may not won, but for me as a viewer those matches were more memorable than the finals are probably going to be.
From this thread and the reaction of the commentators I believe many feel the same.
You clearly saw everyone just wanted them to win, it was truly beautiful.

And yet they are simply the strongest class for direct encounters. 1v1, 2v2.
They are still strong in teamfights and can offer great mobility to themselves and their whole team.
Im pretty sure chronophantasma is the strongest build in the current meta. They win almost every fight by themselves, and for the few scenarios where they dont win, they have a split moa.
How exactly can they not be nerfed?
It would be good tho if they dont just nerf the condi application because everybody complains about it.
The true problem, s1 and s2 is the insane uptime of invulnerability and blocking effects.

https://www.twitch.tv/guildwars2/v/61394877
1st about 2:30, 2nd at 4:00 (rather 3:56)

True. The game was nice to watch. The interview was a little disencouraging tho.
How do you deal with the supposedly strongest thief? Just ignore him.

I would just have placed a plane beneath the skyhammer interaction spot that randomly disappears ~every 8 seconds.

Note: i thought about posting this before, but didnt due to the list being incomplete, and some tips simply dont work for every situation. Might even be plain wrong.
The most important thing in all fights, especially as a thief is to adapt your style to every oponent individually.
“Therefore, just as water retains no constant shape, so in warfare there are no constant conditions…He who can modify his tactics in relation to his opponent, and thereby succeed inwinning, may be called a heaven-born captain.”
-The art of war.

Sd thief

vs

Warrior Our favourite tool is blind, you dont have too much access so you will be wanting to dodge insetad. Most warrior skills are relatively telegraphed, so that should not be a problem.
Outkite the invulnerabilities and specially the rampage. Keep your stunbreaks ready and, if the ymanage to stack some conditions on you, disengage.
They can quickly kill you if they got one good streak, so restetting the fight is the smarter choice.
Warriors lack in healing so take your time.
Id also recommend to maintain some distance between your assaults, infiltrators strike is your tool to go.

Guardian Avoid them. If you have to fight:
Dodge all trueshots, dodge binding blade. Never get hit by a test of faith.
Trigger traps prematurely with dodges or shadowstep. Leave dragons maw asap, if you cant just use bandits defense or maybe try to use flanking strike. Maybe it travels not too much distance and lest you dodge without hitting the walls of the trap.
Never fight inside of traps. If you assault them, make sure you have some backup health because you wont go in or out without getting hit.
Put enough pressure on them to drop some defensive skills and get out before they move to offense.
Poke them with shortbow if they are on a melee weapon, but beware.

Revenants Essence sap is very strong, be sure to hit them. Besides that madvisions video covers what you need to know.

Engineer tough fight. Avoid their passive pressure at all costs. Move in, damage, move out. keep shadowstep for slick shoes, if its one cd use bandits defense but dont move an inch. Only use projectiles if youre sure they dont have a reflect ready.
Try to preestimate when elixir s stops and immediatly put pressure back on. Hope to kill before they can reset. pretty hard with s/d tho I guess.

Thieves A thief v thief fight can be extremely interesting. If you are defending you should try to predict the inital burst. Your opponent will usually use steal to engage, if you can dodge that, you have a big advantage.
Dont let them stick at you, keep distance. Their gap closer is a projectile that can be evaded, yours is instant. Dancing dagger is usually not expected and can deal suprising amounts of damage if sigils are triggered.
Dont get hit by shadow shot, stunbreak asap and keep them in the defense and you have a good chance. Also avoid black powder by any means necessary. The blinds can decide the fight.
If a high health thief stealthes, they will be going for a backstab, you can usually tell when it will happen and intuitively dodge it.
If a low health thief stealthes, you can spam some detonate cluster in the area or even choking gas if you think they want to heal.
Choking gas+cluster bomb is also nice, sonce weakness really hurst most thieves.

Rangers Usually headshot is what they fear. You dont have headshot, so you will have some serious problems. Keep an eye out for the bristleback, try to take cover from arrows if you kite or disengage.
If you pressure enough for CA the first skill will be lunar impact, which will daze you. The second will be rejuvenating tides, and you will be wanting to interrupt it. If they are already on low health and you can deny this skill, they will be in trouble.
You also lack the typical leap finisher in the stolen skill. Instead consider cluster bombs in it if you are in dire need of health.

Necromancer Engage and disengage on demand. They cant follow you, they cant really heal themselves. If they are not able to kill you in one burst, they are in trouble.
Reapers shroud you can either run away and wait, or you can outkite on point, most skills are very predictable. Their favourite heal skill is easily interrupted if you have some free cc, if you can predict it you can even interrupt it with the stolen skill.
Just make sure they dont hit you too much, keep a stunbreak for the big freeze and beware the minionmasters, they can be annoying because you cant keep track of all the minions.

Mesmer Not much you can do here. A guard you can at least kite around or force to use some utility. A mesmer will just kill you 100:0. Even if you +1 and catch them off guard, you usually wont kill them. Its simply the strongest build for small scale combat. But you are slightly faster, so: just run.
And mesmers: if tomorrow finally gives us back the spot as your counter, im going to have revenge. And its not gonna be easy for ya.

Elementalists Finally. Keep pressure high, safe steal for eath or water overload. Watch out for their cc. Theres not much trickery in fighting eles. You stick to them, and deal damage. They run away from you and heal. Either they die, or they dont. If youre in a teamfight, consider choking gas. The regular poison application is hard to cleanse and the healing effectiveness can really matter.

Azukas.1426:

Asrat.2645:

Azukas.1426:

My condi shatter mesmer says “Hi”

Your condi shatter mesmer is the exact oposite of unforgiving.
It takes some basic practice to get it, after that the invulnerability uptime makes it almost impossible to hit you, the heal makes every mistake you may make just a minor lack of comfort.
The insane access to new illusions means you cant do anything wrong with your shatters and the condi means your enemy is kiling themselves. All you have to do is not get hit (easy), press shatters (easy) and create illusions quickly (kinda hard)
And ofc you still have a split moa in case something goes wrong.
Chronophantasma is the only build that is able to reliably win every 1v1 and has a fair chance of winning 2v1s.
It also offers decent mobility.
In other words: it is exactly what thief should not be and it is exactly what thief used to be, just less squishy and therefore more forgiving.

I was pointing out that the creating of what you are scared of has already been done in a significantly easier to play form.

Hopefully tomorrow brings skill back into my class and the rest of the game

Well that we can agree on. Seeing power mesmers or true elementalists suffer like that aint nice.

Rezzet.3614

looking at the Blank Dungeon search bars people Dont Run Anything
so im ridiculous for actually playing the game apparently

and like i said fractals are fine its the No Gain No Pain instability that makes it cheap and overly complicated for no justified reason and forces players to run specific professions with specific builds, good luck vs mai trin or reactor with that instability without top end agony resist and no friends nor guild mates 100% random PUG

Done. Both. Even before the toughness readjust. Full pug, no condi.
And basing your concerns on 10 medium level fractals is really not very meaningful.
Its nice to have a necro for boonstrips, but even that is not mandatory.
They are btw reworking instabilities.

Azukas.1426:

My condi shatter mesmer says “Hi”

Your condi shatter mesmer is the exact oposite of unforgiving.
It takes some basic practice to get it, after that the invulnerability uptime makes it almost impossible to hit you, the heal makes every mistake you may make just a minor lack of comfort.
The insane access to new illusions means you cant do anything wrong with your shatters and the condi means your enemy is kiling themselves. All you have to do is not get hit (easy), press shatters (easy) and create illusions quickly (kinda hard)
And ofc you still have a split moa in case something goes wrong.
Chronophantasma is the only build that is able to reliably win every 1v1 and has a fair chance of winning 2v1s.
It also offers decent mobility.
In other words: it is exactly what thief should not be and it is exactly what thief used to be, just less squishy and therefore more forgiving.

foste.3098:

…Now a ranger with s&r or a thief with impact strikes will be the clutch players at defending and killing lords.

I do not wanna meet the bristleback that can carry that charr.
Anyways, a good change, proves that they are listening.
I actually liked the old lord tho, it was kinda in favour of the loosing team, giving you a chance to turn the game around if you tried hard enough.

Good point. But there will alsways be professions that are easier to play and some that require more training. Thieves should be in the second category. Not exclusively tho.

I dont know exactly, but a lot of times they have made such changes around 5pm utc.

I agree for open world pve and wvw full zerker is suboptimal. Marauder or some valkyrie should be fine. Zerker is really more used for fractals or raids.

I would recommend you to kill tequatl the sunless for the first weeks or months, its not only good loot and a good way to learn some aspects of the game, but also one of the easiest ways to aquire a first ascended weapon (with some luck), they are usually rather expensive.
Besides that the best way to get ascended equipment kinda requires you to have ascended equipment first.(T3 fractal dailies)
Dont worry about the crafting. Just use a guide to level a crafting profession, and usually you will start to understand it on the way.

@amy: dont troll new players pls, they might take you serious.

First of all, thieves should be a class that rewards ‘skill’
So if a normal profession was this , a faceroll profession looked more like this (just the graph, not actual numbers), thief should be this.
That is of course a rather rough approximation.

But that does not neccessarely mean that we have to ‘destroy’ everyone on pro level play.
In a perfect world we would start most high level fights with a small advantage, but not one that cant be overcome.
Additionaly there would also be counter guar…classes, that can beat us more easily.
And of course being a stronger class does not mean you have the advantage in 1v1 or in fights in general.
Thieves in duels should be dangerous. At least an equal chance to kill every profession (excluding counter mechanics), but focussing the class entirely on winning every 1v1 would mean to create a moster. We can choose our opponents after all.
So parts of our strenght would include the movement.
A few general guidelines:
-A bad thief will loose most of their duels.
-A good thief will be able to win every fight as long as they make no mistakes (impossible in practice, rather: less mistakes)
-A thief on the offense is in the best possible position
-A thief defending will have a much harder time
(The suprise, the first hit, the dependance on blocking your point)
-A thief is the least desireable class in any fighting scenarios of more than 4 players.
(For teamfights our current role of picking up the weakest link as soon as they retreat is pretty much perfect)
-The thief class should be extremely unforgiving. To both the thief player and their opponent.

This is getting annoying. Neither in pvp nor in pve we have any kind of ‘condi meta’
Just look at the meta fcs.
Fractals: 0/9 ‘meta’ builds condi
Raids: 3/12 ‘recommended’ builds condi
Spvp: 2/6 ‘meta’ builds condi
Wvw: 0/6 ‘meta’ builds condi
Now I realize metabattle isnt all there is, but this is a pretty clear statement, aint it?

Pvp has a bunker meta, and for pve we have the same zerker love as pre hot.
Execpt some more people run marauders now.

Ele I guess (not in current pvp tho). In general they can deal damage(tops raid dps), ranged or close. They can heal, they have good movement if they want.
They can swap between different skillsets, making them almost perfect for a jack of all trades.
Engi would be my second guess. Also able to take a couple of roles (simultaneously) healing, damage, cc, condidamage, tank. Really nothing they cant do.
Especially the kits provide a lot of diversity in playstyle.
Both classes require a complex rotation in pve to max out their potential. Engi more so.

Edit: but beware. Both belongt o the most powerful classes in the current pvp meta. Things might change completely over the next days.

Supreme.3164:

GW1 was better because it was made with the intent of making the best possible MMO at the time…GW2 has been made with MMO market in mind meaning all they care is …money.l

This is what I dont get!
Novadays most (large) companies always try to create games with the intent of people liking them, therefore are mostly guessing what could be a good change.
How comes they never notice that creating a game the way they like usually is also well liked with the playerbase?
Game developers are usually creative people and often gamers themselves, they dont need any statistics, any coucelling. All they would need to do is create a good game, not one that seems good. Also the best way to create a selling game: dont try to make a selling game.
Idk, maybe im completely wrong about this, but I wish all devs were like Digital Extremes.

Another 2 cents:
-Drastically reduce the uptime of all defensive effects
-Remove all automatically triggering effects (passive actives)
-Cut healing unrelated to heal skills by ~40%
-Heavily reduce passive damage output (power only) to favour short term bursts
-Reduce the ability to apply massive condi at once to favour over time damage build-up
-Decrease access to hard cc
-Put higher cooldowns on every key skill
-Make all high damage skills either hard to hit or risky to use

Thats odd actually.
I experienced a couple of dc’s and it did not count as desertion if we won.

A) Matchmaking. If youre thrown together with low players(rightfully or mmrhell, doesnt matter) it gets harder unless you can carry hard (aka chronophantasma)
B) Experience. We cant see it but you have played approximately 900 games. That aint much. Youve also played a lot of different professions instead of focusing and mastering one. Rev being your favourite profession you likely havent played much pre-hot.
C)Build. You realize youre playing with a zerker amulet rev? Cant work, just…cant.
D)Swapping. Your current comp consists of 5 damage dealers. That would be the kind of match where you swap to ele (or in your case engi).
e) I dont know, what division you are in or how well you play, but you might deserve to be where you are and arent meant to advance further. Bad enough the seasons alow grinding.

Arvizal.8436:

Amaranthe.3578:

Its all very very bad

How is it that I haven’t noticed that it’s THAT bad? It’s not as good as it’s glory days, but it isn’t terrible, from personal experience.

Amaranthe just wants you to join the revenant uprising. Dont take it too serious.

Short version:
Thieves are good, but everything else is better.

Long version:
We arent useless for raids, fractals, whatever pve. in fact we can deliver a ton of damage. But thats about it. We are very welcome as soon as all important roles are filled.
For PvP we can prove useful for a team and good players can make the thief class work.
But that requires a lot of effort from the thief player and some cooperation form your team. It also only works with good teams, you cant reallly carry.
And again, running around, creating and winning uneven fights or capping uncontested points is not enough. there are 6 classes that perform better on high level and are generally more wanted due to pulling their weight in a teamfight, 7 classes on low level.

As a staff thief I actually agree on vault. It is a movement skill, therefore easy to hit (the dodge you could also say about Sotm, triggered on close range, in a visible noisy enviroment or unsuspected will still hit people)
Its a high damage skill and it has a built-in evade frame.
Taking the damage of that skill, and maybe reduce the cost by 1 would make it more of a utility skill.
Alternatively remove the evade frame and increase the travel speed.
But an offensive skill with automated evade is never good design. Especially if its spammable.

Its the coc. This one might get ‘moderated’ too.
Just report ingame and someone will look into it sooner or later.

Guys…there is no discussion here. Playing multiple thieves is a selfish decision, but telling players what they can and can not play is far worse.
Just because you are right doenst mean you cant be wrong.

I was actually just making a really. really bad joke. (bow to me)

So they fix sword and you still want a bow?
Anyways: good to see they are actually changing overdue aspects of the game, lets hope they didnt stop there..

Fivedawgs.4267:

Well, you obviously didn’t play during S1. If you consider what we have Bunker. And ele and ranger being bunker is a necessity since they are supp, the last thing you want is for someone to one shot your supp.

And about thieves, dude idk how thieves works, a good thief has a counter for every toons except revs and scrapper I believe. Venom share thief can be deadly against DH, a normal thief will put up a fight against a necro, warrior or etc.. or even ranger. Just because they can disengage when they want to.

Venom share huh?
I see you know exactly what you are talking about.
And just because S1 was worse, doesnt mean we dont have a bunker meta.