Guild Wars 2

Daecollo.9578:

Quin.9740:

Can not compare Warrior’s regen with Guardian’s regen directly. A warrior does not have protection and access to the many boons a guardian has access to.
A Guardian is more sustainable than a Warrior, that is why Guardians are better bunkers.

Hes also comparing Healing Skills to a Class Skill and Traits.
Guardian Hp/s: 448 (adding the healing ability!)
Warrior Hp/s: 512

Guardians have Protection, Blind, Vigor, Aegis, Invulnerability built in.
Warriors have: More Hp/s (without cleric gear) and 2x more health, 3sec stun on a 7 1/2 sec recharge, Zerker stance, Defy Pain both on a 60sec cd and a traited one.

Sounds like a fair trade off to me.

Btw guardian has no spammable blind. Thief is this way —-——→

JETWING.2759:

Aza.2105:

Lighter.5631:

Aza.2105:

A healing signet warrior has higher regen than a guardian with clerics set, all the while doing substantially more damage. I feel the problem is that healing signet scales too well without cleric gear. It should hit 400+ hp when a warrior is decked out with healing power.

Otherwise its much too strong.

Yet Guardians are still the best bunkers in the game

My point is warrior can go full damage and still out heal guardian without the need to go healing power.

How is that balanced? There is no choice to give up damage for better regen. They get damage and regen without sacrifice.

/\
|| Here someone that no want balanced game.

Warrior has only 400 hp/s, while another classes have 2, 3, 4 or more heals + teleport + stealth + summons + protection + + + + …
The true is that warrior need better sustain and traits.
- Warriors still being the easier class to kill.

This has already been discussed on the guardian forums, apparently other guardians thought the same thing.

In reality there is only a maximum of three health regenerations a class can have access to, if they are lucky. In the case of guardian and warrior it is as follows:

Guardian: Virtue of resolve, regen and writ of the merciful
Warrior: Healing signet, regen and adrenal health

Regen would have the same healing capability regardless of class, as long as they have the same amount of healing power (not counting duration). So lets look at the base numbers of the non regen boon heals with no healing power.

Virtue of Resolve: 86hp per second, with absolute resolution Its around 113hp per sec
Writ of the Merciful: 107 hp per second

Healing signet: 392 per second
Adrenal health: 360 per three seconds, so around 120 per sec?

The difference is substantial. In order for guardian to come close to warrior’s passive regeneration they MUST go full cleric, healing traits and absolute resolution. In the process the ability to do damage is gone.

Its impossible for guardian go dps and retain their healing ability. Warrior however can retain a massive amount of healing while doing damage. Even when guardian goes dps they can not come close to warrior’s damage output while giving up all defense.

Lighter.5631:

Aza.2105:

Lighter.5631:

Aza.2105:

A healing signet warrior has higher regen than a guardian with clerics set, all the while doing substantially more damage. I feel the problem is that healing signet scales too well without cleric gear. It should hit 400+ hp when a warrior is decked out with healing power.

Otherwise its much too strong.

Yet Guardians are still the best bunkers in the game

My point is warrior can go full damage and still out heal guardian without the need to go healing power.

How is that balanced? There is no choice to give up damage for better regen. They get damage and regen without sacrifice.

So warrior can bunk better then guardian? make up your logic! and no warrior don’t go full damage and out heal any single one at all. do you just troll for troll or just have completely no idea what you are talking about.

What does this have to do with anything I’ve said? I’m not the one who mentioned up bunker, you did.

Lighter.5631:

Aza.2105:

A healing signet warrior has higher regen than a guardian with clerics set, all the while doing substantially more damage. I feel the problem is that healing signet scales too well without cleric gear. It should hit 400+ hp when a warrior is decked out with healing power.

Otherwise its much too strong.

Yet Guardians are still the best bunkers in the game

My point is warrior can go full damage and still out heal guardian without the need to go healing power.

How is that balanced? There is no choice to give up damage for better regen. They get damage and regen without sacrifice.

A healing signet warrior has higher regen than a guardian with clerics set, all the while doing substantially more damage. I feel the problem is that healing signet scales too well without cleric gear. It should hit 400+ hp when a warrior is decked out with healing power.

Otherwise its much too strong.

I have them, the +25% run speed is nice.

Barret.4095:

errant.9843:

Aza.2105:

I don’t feel incentives have a real place in pvp. Its more of a pve thing. Gw1 didn’t have them. The only thing it had was balthazar points to buy skills. Of course gw2 can’t follow suit since there aren’t many skills in the game.

I agree about passives and rng though, they shouldn’t even be in pvp. Where you find rng, you find no skill.

GW1 had zaishen keys for incetives and they were a great boon. They revived the less-competitive game modes (HB, RA, HA) and brought a lot of new players in while giving competitive PvPers and nice reward.

i don’t feel like zkeys were incentives to play pvp but rather as just a little bonus. it was a way to get money without having to do any pve which was great.

i think they need something like what zkeys did, cause everything you gain in the mist can’t be used outside of it. you can play hundreds of hours in spvp but as soon as you step into the pve world it is as if you haven’t even been playing the game at all. maybe converting glory into gems or something.

Or maybe pvp chests could reward you with pve mats and such.

GettCouped.7846:

Aza.2105:

…

I agree about passives and rng though, they shouldn’t even be in pvp. Where you find rng, you find no skill.

Crits are RNG.

Yup.

I don’t feel incentives have a real place in pvp. Its more of a pve thing. Gw1 didn’t have them. The only thing it had was balthazar points to buy skills. Of course gw2 can’t follow suit since there aren’t many skills in the game.

I agree about passives and rng though, they shouldn’t even be in pvp. Where you find rng, you find no skill.

Cast bars would be a start. But changing aoe would be a problem, since the majority of skills in the game are aoe.

No.

There is much work to do, but unfortunately Anet’s focus is on pve content. Understandable since that is what brings in the money.

Mammoth.1975:

Well, were you implying that it’s fine as is, or that it should be more difficult to watch? Because you weren’t saying it’s bad as is right?

Are you asking me to help you with your literacy problems?

Mammoth.1975:

No, I understand, I apologise! Now tell me how you really meant ‘good’ when you said ‘difficult’.

How can I answer a question that has to do with your limited usage and understanding of vocabulary?

Mammoth.1975:

Aza.2105:

You have selective reading.

So is the meaning bad and difficult the same for you? Also, you still have to show me where I say "You said its bad to watch because everyone has to get on point. ".

Haha yeah sorry for conflating those two, you were actually talking about how awesome GW2 is to watch right?

Bad and difficult mean entirely different things. Here let me show you:

bad

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/bad

difficult

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/difficult

Stof.9584:

Q: OP.
A: Public Test Realm

Its strange why they don’t have a PTR.

Mammoth.1975:

Really?

Aza.2105:

In fact, it only makes things more difficult. With the current design, gw2 is very difficult to follow.
…

What the conquest mode does is intensify this. How? It puts everyone in a small circle (the capture point), were they just spam skills.

It’s getting to the point where you’re beginning to sound like a small child responding with ‘why?’ to every answer.

You have selective reading.

So is the meaning bad and difficult the same for you? Also, you still have to show me where I say "You said its bad to watch because everyone has to get on point. ".

Mammoth.1975:

Aza.2105:

What the conquest mode does is intensify this. How? It puts everyone in a small circle (the capture point), were they just spam skills.

I don’t see me saying bad. Where is it?

Mammoth.1975:

You said its bad to watch because everyone has to get on point. You’re wrong. Get it?

Where did I say its bad to watch because everyone has to get on the point?

Mammoth.1975:

Aza.2105:

You are trying to tell me why conquest fails, when I don’t care since it has nothing to do with my thread.

Maybe you shouldn’t have repeatedly brought up conquest then.
You should also talk more about how anet doesn’t play their game.
Did you even mention anything else in the OP? Some crap about more transparent communication? The problem with that is telling your customers they need to stop being so kittening stupid and L2P before you can find mutual ground for a conversation isn’t real good PR, but that’s all they can do to half the loaded questions they get.

Example:
Player: Herpadurp conquest bad, everyone in circle, big bright flashes, someone die, me no know how.
Anet: Maybe if you knew how to play it, that wouldn’t happen and you’d enjoy it more.
Player: OMG you no say bad thing to me I R CUSTOMER!

If you read my OP it has nothing to do with playing conquest. What I did write was how difficult (read the next part, its important for you) conquest mode is to watch. WATCH not play but watch. Get it? As watching a stream of a pvp tournament.

But what you did was try to take my post and turn it into your crusade to point out bad players in conquest. But if you could read you would see it had nothing to do with that. But you continued to pressure the fact that it did. Perhaps with others in the thread they started to mention up conquest being bad. But I did not.

In fact, I think I already said conquest is cool. However its at odds without the game plays from a observation point of view. The mode exists so its easy for observers to follow. This is true. But when you take into consideration how every class is aoe oriented, the game is heavy with particle effects and summons, then it makes it more difficult to watch. Why?

Because conquest ensures that all the action occurs on the nodes. Thats why I said the mode itself works against what anet wants to happen. That it makes it more difficult to watch since everyone will fight in and around the node. It makes it near impossible for a observer to see who died and what happened. Do you understand?

Mesmer and Ele are fine. As mentioned, S/D just makes them obsolete. If they buff them then all it would do is make them op.

MarkPhilips.5169:

Q: GW1 had a lot of PvP variety, GW2 sPVP is lacking, will we get more varieties in the future?

Colin: Our focus right now is making a game type that is easy to watch and understand.

And we got this

http://www.ultraimg.com/images/9KU2V.gif

Good job

Definitely not easy to watch. But don’t tell that to anet.

Mammoth.1975:

I told you why conquest fails. I used your post and Diages post as examples. You’re the one translating that into ‘conquest isn’t bad’ I’m afraid.

Once again, you should have followed that link. It’s pretty tongue in cheek but I genuinely believe they need to dumb this game down a lot to help certain players. Team death match is the most casual friendly format there is, I fully support it.

What does this have to do with anything??? You are trying to tell me why conquest fails, when I don’t care since it has nothing to do with my thread. What is wrong with you?

Mammoth.1975:

Go ahead, backtrack on it. Be my guest.

While you’re at it, you should backtrack on the ignorance you displayed with the ‘anet doesn’t play gw2’ thing too, since, as I said, they play it better than you.

You are the one who has turned the thread into conquest isn’t bad, learn to play. Not me. Whether conquest is a adequate game mode has nothing to do with my post.

Mammoth.1975:

Aza.2105:

You responding the way you do has nothing to do with me, the only thing I do is cause you to see yourself. Its not my fault or anyone elses here that you can’t come to terms with your inadequacies. Hence your need to assign people the role of “bad”. Which makes you by proxy “good”. If doing this continues to make you feel good about yourself. But please refrain from including me in your personal problems.

Its completely irrelevant to the game and this thread.

I didn’t assign you that role, you did. In your opening post. You don’t understand the gametype, and so you complain about it. Recurring theme on this forum.

BTW, anyone who knows me in game or my post history on the forums knows that I’m the first to admit I’m bad at this game. I know the basics, that’s all.

Are you certain you believe you understood my initial post?

Mammoth.1975:

Aza.2105:

Mammoth.1975:

I shared my opinion on a gametype I fundamentally fail at, I shouldn’t even be posting if I were me right now.

Yes, this sounds about right. The picture is very different when you apply what you are saying to yourself, instead of others. Very little of what you are saying has to do with others in this thread.

Actually, what I’m saying has a lot to do with you in particular, since you’re the clearest example of the playerbase being bad in this thread. I can kind of understand that not spreading out all over the map is a difficult concept (ok not really but it seems like most players have trouble with it so I guess it is), but not bunching up on point is GW2 101.

You responding the way you do has nothing to do with me, the only thing my post has done is cause you to see yourself. Its not my fault or anyone elses here that you can’t come to terms with your inadequacies. Hence your need to assign people the role of “bad”. Which makes you by proxy “good”. If doing this continues to make you feel good about yourself, then feel free to continue. But please refrain from including me in your personal problems.

Its completely irrelevant to the game and this thread.

GankSinatra.2653:

If conquest fails because players are morons, then conquest still fails. If you aim to provide entertainment then you give the people what they want. Clearly this path has been golden all the way. But hey lets ignore everything and just think that anyone with a differing opinion is just a noob @ conquest. I are master discussionist.

Its ok that you like conquest dude, dont be mad. You will always have the chance to fight pretend players with your 4 friends while we are in deathmatches.

They had conquest mode in gw1’s alliance battles. But it was much easier to follow due to the nature of the game itself.

Mammoth.1975:

I shared my opinion on a gametype I fundamentally fail at, I shouldn’t even be posting if I were me right now.

Yes, this sounds about right. The picture is very different when you apply what you are saying to yourself, instead of others. Very little of what you are saying has to do with others in this thread.

Mammoth.1975:

Aza.2105:

Your ignorance is necessary for this thread, continue.

Strong counterargument. Get aoed moar?

Were you expecting me to make a long, dignified reply to refute what you said? Its really not needed, there are plenty of people who are already doing that. But like I’ve said to you, that you are a necessity to this thread. So I don’t find it problem that you deny everything.

Mammoth.1975:

GankSinatra.2653:

If conquest fails because players are morons, then conquest still fails. If you aim to provide entertainment then you give the people what they want. Clearly this path has been golden all the way. But hey lets ignore everything and just think that anyone with a differing opinion is just a noob @ conquest. I are master discussionist.

Its ok that you like conquest dude, dont be mad. You will always have the chance to fight pretend players with your 4 friends while we are in deathmatches.

I haven’t said whether I like it or not, I just said why it fails. Don’t get so defensive. It would be great if someone would prove me wrong instead of continuing to prove me right btw.

“Conquest fails because it forces everyone to stand on point”
“Conquest fails because it forces you to spread out all over the map”

Oh, and btw, another thing that came up in the OP:

I’m pretty sure Anet plays their own game, since there were two Anet players in the top100 NA soloboards for a while. They’re just playing it better than you, and that’s where the disconnect between devs and players actually is. They don’t see the same problems as you because they don’t have the same problems as you. The problem you’re having is self inflicted. Use your head, stop bunching up on point, problem disappears.

Your ignorance is necessary for this thread, continue.

Lighter.5631:

Mammoth.1975:

Lighter.5631:

Mammoth.1975:

Lopez.7369:

Berserker Stance was buffed from four-second duration to eight-second duration after the necromancer patch.

Yah sorry you’re correct, it was increased 2 weeks later in the next patch.

Which means they did get “new toys” + healing buff. there i said it, if you still didn’t realize it.

If you wanna get really particular about it, no one was running necros for those 2 weeks anyway, because once again, the playerbase was way behind.

Either way you want to look at it, the counter has been in play for 7 weeks tomorrow, but no one caught on till yesterday, and half the posters on this forum still haven’t.

Get your facts right, People were running necro dhumfire and chain fear since day 2.
ok, berserker stance is the counter, so what, you mean everyone have to play a warrior and spec for zerker stance, sure everyone let’s do it . btw if you didn’t know that, by AoE spamming, we don’t mean just necro, the aoe condi spamming is just in a really bad stat right now for all aoe condi spammable class, necro is just by chance on top of the list.

It would be great if they allowed us to use other classes skills again.

Arganthium.5638:

Aza.2105:

Arganthium.5638:

I don’t think they have those spreadsheets.

Why? Because I’ve developed those same spreadsheets that you’re talking about and, even if they have developed them, I also know the limitations of those spreadsheets, and just how far their usefulness extends. I also know from experience that it takes quite the bit of creativity to even come up with the base idea for the spreadsheets. Either way, I (attempted) to send Allie my spreadsheets the a few days. I still have yet to get a response.

Yeah I’m sure it does take creativity.

Curious to know about the spreadsheets you made btw.

Well, what do you want to know?

Just a summary.

Arganthium.5638:

I don’t think they have those spreadsheets.

Why? Because I’ve developed those same spreadsheets that you’re talking about and, even if they have developed them, I also know the limitations of those spreadsheets, and just how far their usefulness extends. I also know from experience that it takes quite the bit of creativity to even come up with the base idea for the spreadsheets. Either way, I (attempted) to send Allie my spreadsheets the a few days. I still have yet to get a response.

Yeah I’m sure it does take creativity.

Curious to know about the spreadsheets you made btw.

I personally feel that Anet doesn’t play their own game. Instead, I believe they only design stuff on paper but do not actually see how it plays out in game. I’m sure there are mathematical spread sheets that theoretically explain the way things are. And that their are general ideas that justify decisions being made.

Take conquest for example. When you hear the developers reasoning on why they choose conquest. It makes sense to a degree. But then when you put into practice the reasoning, it doesn’t work out well. The purpose of the conquest style arena was to make sure thakittens easy for viewers to follow. But realistically in game or even when you watch, it doesn’t make it easy to follow.

In fact, it only makes things more difficult. With the current design, gw2 is very difficult to follow. You can’t really tell what is going on besides someone is dead and they are getting rezzed. Why? Because of, shared animations, very short animations, asuras, particle effects and the ungodly amount of aoe spam in the game.

What the conquest mode does is intensify this. How? It puts everyone in a small circle (the capture point), were they just spam skills. Some where within all of that, someone dies but the viewer doesn’t know how. And usually neither does the player. This is just a example.

My perspective is, anet needs to open up test servers so the pvp community can test out changes. There has to be more open communication from dev to the player. There are a lot of complaints on the forum yes, many get erased, some people even get banned. But they share one thing in common, the people making those posts actually care about pvp improving. Anet should be happy, that players come here to voice their opinion about the game. Whether its negative or positive, though the negative would be more beneficial.

Darnis.4056:

Aza.2105:

Darnis.4056:

Moa is the least powerful elite skill on a 180 cooldown..

Thieve’s guild
Entangle
Spirit of nature
Lich form
Plague
Guardian Tomes.
Crate
Timewarp
Mass Invis

All of these elites are way better then moa

LOL@Guardian Tomes! Really now?

Better then moa? yea, Id say they are…

Guardian tomes are better on paper only. Realistically and practically they aren’t. Transformations are just too clunky to compete with normal skills. I’d say it would be better if you could use utilities with them.

Darnis.4056:

Moa is the least powerful elite skill on a 180 cooldown..

Thieve’s guild
Entangle
Spirit of nature
Lich form
Plague
Guardian Tomes.
Crate
Timewarp
Mass Invis

All of these elites are way better then moa

LOL@Guardian Tomes! Really now?

sorrow.2364:

Jasher.6580:

lol… oh semantics. He mentioned “dodge” as being the only “counter” so I was going along that vein of reasoning.

Well then… there are various ways to “prevent” it.

Prevention is not enough when we’re talking about a skill that shut you down for 10s.
Any heavy CC in this game has a counter (stunbreaker), except Moa. I see no reason of why Moa shouldn’t have a counter.

He doesn’t understand a difference. But thanks for trying to enlighten him.

Jasher.6580:

Aza.2105:

What skill exists that prevents you from being turned into a moa?

Blind, Block, Daze, Fear, Launch, Pull, Push, Knockdown, Stun, Float, Line of Sight and Sink… oh yeah and as you mentioned. Dodge.

None of those are counters.

Lordrosicky.5813:

This game isnt a competitive pvp game. Get over it. Either quit or accept it for what it is. A pve game.

My evidence? All the mechanics are based around pve. They cant nerf aoe. They cant nerf dodges. They cant nerf damage. Because this is all baked into the pve side of the game. The spammy nature of pvp cant be changed because it is an integral part of pve.

And that is the problem with all MMO’s. They are designed first and foremost to be pve games. So all the mechanics are suited to pve and dont translate well to pvp.

Another sign its a pve game is that people want “goals” and “progression” in their pvp. People who play proper competitive pvp games get this progression from competition. Anet are going to give you people new shinys to chase after…why? Because its not a proper pvp game.

So either accept the game as it is (a pve game with pvp side game) or quit. There is no point putting hours of time into a game which is flawed as a competitive game because it is designed fundamentally around pve.

This guy speaks the truth.

Achilles.2197:

For those of you crying about Moa Morph, especially the one who compared it to the GW1 mesmer. Just stop.

Guild Wars 1 mesmers had a MYRIAD of shutdown skills that were by far more dangerous than moa morph.

Powerblock
Diversion
Blackout (disable all skills for 6 seconds on a much shorter cooldown than moa)
Psychic Instability
Shame
Mistrust
Power Lock
Power Leak
Cry of Frustration
Complicate
Leech Signet
Power Drain
Power Spike
and the list goes on

Yup but every single one of those skills could be countered with other skills. Gw2 doesn’t have that type of depth.

What skill exists that prevents you from being turned into a moa? Oh wait..dodge! Its the answer to every thing in this game.

I asked myself what did I just watch? Hardly exciting and I didn’t expect it, given its gw2.

lol counter play. It doesn’t exist in gw2.

You can’t use obstructing as a viable counter since 99% of the fights take place in a circle aka the capture point. Which contains no way to los effectively. You can blind mesmer but WHAT IF you don’t have BLIND? Gasp!

And what if the mesmer casts it while stealth?

The op is indeed correct, skills like this shouldn’t exist in a pvp game. They sure didn’t exist in gw1.

Tarsius.3170:

3 pages of updated skill facts/tooltips ftw

This is what I imagine too. Or them fixing a skill that we never knew was broken, which in the process makes the skill worse than how it was when it was broke.

tom.7468:

It has already been fixed they nerfed dhuumfire , terror, marks what more do you want??

Add activation time on marks.

milo.6942:

…next time?

I always found it funny how the art work of guardian shows them with spirit weapons floating around. Yet no one really uses them.

If you ask me, two things get in the way of spirit weapons being good. The first being how they are temporal. This makes building around spirit weapons undependable and not very smart. Because once they die, the entire build dies with them until they are resummoned. If they didn’t die until they were killed then they would be much more valuable to players.

The second is how cooldowns start after they die. If cooldowns started after they were summoned like ranger spirits. This could make the interval between them being up and down much less.

Christos de Soufre.3802:

I played a Retribution Paladin for 5 years. I’m used to not having a snare.

That isn’t to say I wouldn’t appreciate one, though. :P

So did I.

Ret paladin had way better mechanics than Guardian. At least they could do burst damage and maintain their survivability with bubble and other defensive cooldowns.

Not to mention they had hammer of wrath to finish someone, which also had range! Ret also had a passive run speed buff too.

Does anyone find it strange to create a melee class with cripple or mobility? Balance wise, melee needs to keep up with runners in order to deal damage. Since pvp isn’t usually stationary.

But looking at guardians design I see the following:

To do damage your enemies must be stationary in a small radius around you. But there is nothing to keep them there against their will nor is their any real way to keep up with enemies who decide its not in their best interest to stay near you.

But range has classes to trick and control targets from every reaching them.

MrBig,

There is no distinct difference between a good thief and bad thief. Lets not try raise gw2 pvp to the level of something like evo street fighter 4, alright? Because its not that, not even close and in terms of skill its currently bottom of the barrel.

To summarize what you are saying, if the evade was removed from LS, then it shouldn’t affect S/D very much right? But I’m sure you won’t agree with that. How you are trying to illustrate a effective counter against evade can be applied to the other two identical mechanics in the game aka block and dodge. But if that was the viable counter then everyone would complain even more.

The thing is you totally misunderstand my problem with evade, I have a problem with anything that remains unchecked. Period. When we have unchecked mechanics, they become overpowered. Not because they are strong per say, but there doesn’t exist a skill that is their polar opposite.

You can use the argument of follow the animation and cc, but there are too many variables to make your claim valid. We have: The game being pummeled with particle effects, we have the fact that with most things in this game you can’t even tell what is going on, you have some classes that don’t even have a viable “damage cc” in which you can intelligently use. These things just do not exist in this game.

This isn’t sf4, in sf4 you can become familiar with animations since every characters animation is very very distinct. There is a balance between when the animation is active, how long it takes to recover and how much damage it does. Hint hint a fierce punch has a long recovery making it easier to punish but it also does big damage.

In gw2, looking at LS animation, its extraordinarily fast. So fast that you only have small intervals to hit the target. This problem isn’t exclusive to thief, its present through out the game.

For a viable counter to exist, it has to be a equal force. For example, a spammable skill that interrupts evades with a 1/2 cast time would be a equal force. Get what I’m saying?

I feel anet made a mistake making gw2 more like a fast paced action game rather than evolving the original gw formula. Why? Because while they succeeded in making it pretty to watch, they failed to take into consideration to implement what makes a action game great. Gw2 is a mix of archaic mmorpg mechanics and pseudo action/fighting game mechanics. Which creates a mess.

Mrbig.8019:

Aza.2105:

Mrbig.8019:

The issue regarding S/D thieves is not FS -> LS chain, neither is the evade.

The reason why S/D is so strong is because it’s able to snowball low HP classes thanks to Inf strike mobility, without even giving them time to reposition.

Not that it matters, since Inf strike will just get the thief back to you in no time.

Add this to the natural strong 1vs1 capability of the build and you know how it will ends.

Most thieves won’t talk about it because they KNOW the issue is Inf strike, not the evade, neither the damage ( in fact a common EU S/D build CAN be defeated 1vs1 by multiple classes, as long as they have decent ranged options or good CCs, or good AoE control/damage), and all thieves know that a nerf to Inf strike would not only break the set, but the whole Sword MH.

Nerfing damage ( unless they totally kitten it ridicolously, stuff like -33% damage like they did with C&D or dancing dagger) won’t change anything, because the issue is Inf strike coupled with the good sustain S/D offers.

Also: note that S/P is not used simply because pistol whip deals mediocre damage and ROOTS YOU IN PLACE: if we could use pistol whip on the move and dealt a little bit more of damge, NOBODY would run S/D.

LITERALLY

NOBODY.

I disagree, evade is the issue. It gives S/D the ability to evade tank. Mitigating damage should be a sacrifice of a damage dealing stat. Or if mitigation is done via skill it should have a long cooldown.

If you noticed for block there are unblockable skills, for dodge there is weakness (even though I feel it doesn’t do a good job as a counter) and for evade there is absolutely nothing.

So what does this mean? It can be used without fear of someone punishing you for spamming it. If there were skills that were can’t be evaded then S/D would be less of a issue.

Evade should use a portion of your endurance meter like dodge. When you run out of endurance you can still use the skill but you can no longer evade.

This would stop the spamming since it will be controlled and there would be a distinct difference between dodge and evade. Dodge would be just the double tap skill. Evade would be like dodge except it combines the effect of dodge with a skill. So it has a advantage over it.

I hate to say it , but you need to L2P, and i don’t want to sound elitist, but it’s just a matter of fact.

Larcenous strike ( big damage) requires 1/2 secs to connect: plenty of time to react and use your damage-CC.

Why, as arganthium said, is there a difference between a good thief and an idiot spamming 3 ?

because the good thief will fake the move, knowing that a good opponent IS ABLE to spot Larcenous Strike animation and HIT meanwhile.

Persistant AoEs are also S/D weak spot.

Evade is not a problem: it may be frustrating to play against, but it’s not the problem, neither the reason why S/D thief is strong.

I agree S/D thief is a bit over the top ( absolutely not as OP as most people claim), but i cannot take people seriously as long as they literally have NO IDEA why S/D thieves are strong in current meta ( and still will be, altough less strong, even if the meta shifts).

Funny guy.

Show me how its a l2p issue. Youtube is available why don’t you make videos putting into application what you are telling me here. Then we can engage in conversation.

Mrbig.8019:

The issue regarding S/D thieves is not FS -> LS chain, neither is the evade.

The reason why S/D is so strong is because it’s able to snowball low HP classes thanks to Inf strike mobility, without even giving them time to reposition.

Not that it matters, since Inf strike will just get the thief back to you in no time.

Add this to the natural strong 1vs1 capability of the build and you know how it will ends.

Most thieves won’t talk about it because they KNOW the issue is Inf strike, not the evade, neither the damage ( in fact a common EU S/D build CAN be defeated 1vs1 by multiple classes, as long as they have decent ranged options or good CCs, or good AoE control/damage), and all thieves know that a nerf to Inf strike would not only break the set, but the whole Sword MH.

Nerfing damage ( unless they totally kitten it ridicolously, stuff like -33% damage like they did with C&D or dancing dagger) won’t change anything, because the issue is Inf strike coupled with the good sustain S/D offers.

Also: note that S/P is not used simply because pistol whip deals mediocre damage and ROOTS YOU IN PLACE: if we could use pistol whip on the move and dealt a little bit more of damge, NOBODY would run S/D.

LITERALLY

NOBODY.

I disagree, evade is the issue. It gives S/D the ability to evade tank. Mitigating damage should be a sacrifice of a damage dealing stat. Or if mitigation is done via skill it should have a long cooldown.

If you noticed for block there are unblockable skills, for dodge there is weakness (even though I feel it doesn’t do a good job as a counter) and for evade there is absolutely nothing.

So what does this mean? It can be used without fear of someone punishing you for spamming it. If there were skills that were can’t be evaded then S/D would be less of a issue.

Evade should use a portion of your endurance meter like dodge. When you run out of endurance you can still use the skill but you can no longer evade.

This would stop the spamming since it will be controlled and there would be a distinct difference between dodge and evade. Dodge would be just the double tap skill. Evade would be like dodge except it combines the effect of dodge with a skill. So it has a advantage over it.