Guild Wars 2

bumping it up. We are halfway to getting our first guild mission! Time to represent and get us some points!

Ruufio.1496:

2 seconds of poison would be overpowered on Life Blast?

Lol’d.

But, I mean, hey. I don’t even use a condition build so what do I care if Death Shroud sucks for them.

It’s would be overpowered if it hit for 5k (completely possible in a build) pierced, stacked in vulnerability, might, and hit them for a poison which is the second highest damage condition.

No on the Life blast change adding poison means they would have to severely nerf it’s base damage which would effectively kill any power build. No thank you, I hate conditions, and like my minions and builds to be power focused.

If you want a condition attached to LB than let their be a trait that applies it, but doing it on the base ability is a very bad idea. The same holds true with all of your minion ideas, not a single one works for anything but condition builds. Posion on Flesh wurm hit is just a bad idea they would have to nerf the damage severely. ((this is why I hate ideas that come from people who don’t play every spec, and look at how condition plus damage abilities are done))

Reaper’s precision at 50 percent would be seriously OP for dagger users.

Slagburst.5304:

My tooltip says the same, that was my fault. Tested it without 30% minion dmg it crit for 4300. WIth the 30% increase to damage it was 5500 on average. And this was an argument about axe’s pathetic vuln stacking, i was just stating that combined with other abilites it adds to the overall ability of vuln. I never said u cant stack it with a dagger and focus.

This is why I like reading your posts slag. Now if you learned better paragraph formatting on your longer reads it would be awesome :P.

You have to be careful when mentioning minions, some people are ready to jump all over it. Axe/Focus is very strong with different builds. Do you run full class cannon or the 30/10/0/0/30 build wiht it?

There are three ranged and three melee. Flesh Golem is the only one that has ai or aggro issues.

I can’t tell which one but at this point you are either a) The biggest complainer and griper of video games who enjoys nitpicking on things that are relatively easy to figure out if you simply think about mechanics for a second. b) just trolling this me by contributing nothing of consequance to a comment or c) really bad at this game and so feel everyone who isn’t is a fanboy.

I am neither an anet fanboy nor delusional. I just look for the positive in the aspects, and because we have people who scream at anet when they can’t do things, not realizing that it may just not be their class. Some of us come at you with a more rational objective reply, and you scream fanboy!!!!! BTW the derogatory fanboy term you are looking for is actually spelt fanboi, but again that would require research which based on your comment might be difficult for you.

Look I hated GW1 so to say I am a fanboy is not only ridiculous, but in your world somehow a fan is something bad when in the real world being a fan simply means you enjoy the game or that you are mechanical device designed to project cool breeze in a hot room.

Andele.1306:

If i may hijack the point 2 a bit, if someone who is in the guild (thus kinda required to have a necro) wants to level, wants to know a good location for farming a crafting mat, needs help with a personal story part, farm for a boss only drop or just clear some jumping puzzle on a non-necro, chances are that i can help from 1:00 AM PST to 8:30 AM PST.

That’s not a hijack, that’s a right on point. Thank you Andele. He is also the guy to contact about dungeon runs during non-scheduled times.

Nay of the Ether.8913:

Bas.7406:

I will have to hold a vote as to which guild missions we do first with 70 members we should be able to rock out the points needed

Only problem with that Bas is with everyone on different servers, the influence won’t contribute to the same base guild will it? I mean I’m all for sending some money for you to buy the influence from the vendor, but this thought just occurred to me about the influence problem. If you have an idea around this let me know.

I am almost positive that it doesn’t matter. Granted we won’t be able to do WvWvW missions, but if you do something it attributes it to the guild as a whole, and not jsut to the contigent on your server.

Guesting is another way around if it does cause the credit of the Guild mission to not work, but that’s easily done.

Rennoko.5731

Since his normal wind up and attack once he is going is often (in that video at least), faster than his original target and attack, I would say that is an issue with response time. That was what I as pointing out.

I hate to think that having minion AI match NPC AI is an acceptable situation. Yes they are both NPC’s, but how many NPC’s do you know that stand around and refuse to attack when you engage them? Sure they bug out from time to time, which I think we can all accept, but from the video above, it clearly happens frequently.

What is the problem with having them focus whatever you use your 1 skill on? That isn’t elegant, but at least it makes them all engage properly.

Because we don’t always use our 1 attack. Sometimes I don’t even use my auto attack unless I have a dagger than I always do it. Sometimes I fire my 1 attack on my staff at one target then I want to focus fire another target. Now I have to hit 1 again.

It’s more complicated explanation, and yet simpler solution than you make it out to be. I will say this much in the time that I have played, I have never had that long of a period where the flesh golem did not respond. Which has more to do with the way I play, the weapons used, how I attack, and the fights I am in. I am not saying that I don’t see AI issues, but nothing as bad as the video shows.

But of Corpse has been around for two weeks now, and it has been a great time so far. From all-necro dungeon runs to a few sit down sessions with some of the great necromancer minds out there. The Necro community has been a huge boon for the game so far. 78 members and counting as we continue to do our best to help other Necros learn the game and feel comfortable in being a necromancer.

I would like to encourage new necromancers to whisper the others in the game to see about runs, many of us only rep during All-Necro events. There will be many all-necro events in the future, I have been extremely busy and unable to schedule anything over the last week, and will probably be out for the next week as well.

I just wanted to let those on the forums know we will continue to work on getting more events, and more Necromancer testing. I am posting here about our 3 biggest upcoming Necro events:

1) Bhawb is looking for some help with testing out Minion AI, specific traits, and builds. If you can lend a hand, please contact him in game.

2) We will be doing some All-Necro dungeons – since the improved damage, I am wondering how viable certain builds are with the most recent changes. I think we will need more control with the changes. Charlotte Pendragon aka Andele is always trying to set something up. Contact her in game or via pm here for more information.

3) We will be doing a podcast in the future with Nemesis, Bhawb, Oblivion, and myself. We will be covering all things necromancer and how the new patch, events, adn dungeon improvements affect the necromancer. More information will come in the future including the website where you will be able to listen to the podcast or read the edited version.

I am posting this since I have been asked in game and via PM several times about upcoming events. I apologize that I haven’t been as active in game due to outside engagements including building and getting ready to launch my own website (for all you web designers I give you mad props for doing this on a regular basis it’s a crazy amount of work). I do apologize for the tone of my responses over the last few weeks sometimes I get on here and I am already pushed to the end that I have come off dismissive.

I look forward to working with all of the Necromancer fans in the future and hopefully we can continue to push for better DS UI and use this platform to help out Necromancers in the game.

I will see what I can do. I don’t get back in from lunch for awhile,but anyone in the guild can invite.

@taril – I would be fine if I could dismiss them at will and resummon them with the CD and 1.25 second cast. I think it would help alot especially with Blood Fiend or the Bone Fiend tank.

I simply disagree that they need a bump in toughness. I say this because toughness won’t solve the issue at hand. If they see any change it would need to be a pve only AOE reduction to damage taken. Because loss of toughness would make them die even faster.

As for the AI issues, I am working with Bhawb to record and talk through how minion AI works. It’s not as simple as point and click, but once you settle down and think it through it makes sense.

Rennoko.5731:

The blood fiend seems to be the most responsive of the lot. The ranged bone fiend will even stand around for a second or two in some cases in that video. The golem being the worst offender.

Minion response should feel snappy no matter what, and that video clearly indicates that snappy isn’t the best way to describe it.

The bone fiend has a attack speed issue that’s the only reason it seems that way. He targets than winds up and attacks. his response time is fine.

Minion response time is no worse than any other AI in the game.

@Sodzilla, I am not saying they don’t need minor tweeks. What we are trying to stem is this outgoing call for them to act as ranger pets (which have the exact same issue) or that we need call and recall buttons or that the AI causes them to be completely unusable.

The main culprit is always the Flesh Golem. The rest have really good response times if you don’t use massive aoe attacks. I will watch your video at lunch. I am at work at the moment :p

Taril.8619:

Okay, so Minions received a few buffs in the last patch but they still have glaring problems such as their AI not being consistent and their complete lack of usefulness in areas where AoE are present.

I was playing around with some minions earlier and started thinking about ways to improve on these problem areas, I came up with:

• Reduce their toughness but increase their vitality to compensate – This will lower the chances of them getting aggro meaning that they will live slightly longer.

That would force you into one build for minions. Sorry I run berzerker with Minions and i prefer them to tank a brunt of the damage. You are walking a fine line if you increase their vitality. If you overscale it they will be the only pvp style since it would essentially give you 5 people to kill for everyone.

Taril.8619:

• In combat and out of combat health regen – Giving them decent health regen out of combat will increase the fluidity of Minions as it’d reduce the likelyhood of entering combat with a Minion that has low health (Or if swapping Utilities to dismiss it, waiting on the cooldown for said minion) whilst giving them a small amount of health regen in combat will assist in their ability to stay alive through small amounts of random cleaves/AoE

We have been through this a dozen times. They are not pets, they are supposed to die. They are not perma pets designed to make your life easier, they are tools to be used and then expunged. If you find your minions are on low health a lot trait for poison on death.

Taril.8619:

• Weapon Skills causing minions to attack current target – Improves how minions initiate combat, removes the issues caused by AoE heavy weapon sets (Staff) and makes target switching more reliable – Optional weapon skills with no target makes them attack the nearest target

The code to do this would be enormous and be subject to an incredible amount of bugs and frustration. You can already specify who you want them to attack by simply attacking that target with single target abilities. Bhawb is finalizing some tests to test which abilities and the timing of them.

Taril.8619:

• Dodging to make Minions also dodge – Allows minions to be able to avoid high damage attacks that are easy to notice and avoid by players Optional Make dodging have minions disengage combat and head for the player (So as to be able to position them via Dodge, if coupled with the Weapon skill combat initiation it should be fairly fluid to engage/disengage combat like every other weapon skill and utility in the game)

This would make them extremely OP in spvp and wvwvw situations. Someone targets my minion. I dodge they wasted a hit, I keep killing them. You have to think through how this will affect not just how you play.

Taril.8619:

Anyway… If you can think of something else it’d be nice to have some ideas on how improvements could be made.

My best idea for improvement is simple – Stop thinking of them as pets, but as tools. Once your mindset changes they are no longer as flawed as you think.

A very minor aoe resistance would be nice, but a lot of the aoe abilities are easily handled by proper summoning, and where to go with it.

The only really improvement is casting time after summons. I hate that I have a 1.25 second cast that can be interrupted easily.

Zahmahkibo.6375:

Plenty of classes can stack vulnerability. If you think the axe is doing “high damage,” you’re not looking at it objectively..

That wasn’t his statement at all. You completely misread our entire discussion. He said lots of classes can stack vulnerability while dealing more damage. That’s just not true only one class can, and they have to specifically trait for it. The other two classes that can stack vulnerability while doing damage either have to be in melee or whose weapon does less damage, but can hit multiple targets.

Just because you have access to vulnerability doesn’t mean you can stack it. ONly two classes have a weapon that inherently stacks vulnerability quickly. The ele with water dagger (less damage better aoe crappy targeting) and the Necro axe. The others cannot come close to stacking it as fast or they have to be in melee or trait specifically for that.

bumpity bumpity bump

The question I have is have you submitted a ticket in game as well as opening one on the forum page for them?

Yeah, I rarely swapped anyways, I guess you either use it defensively and not worry about weapon swap now or if you plan on using it offensively do the swap just before hitting ds.

@khalil – I always like seeing new builds and ideas, and while I am pretty positive that condition damage is not good for every build I do like your approach. However, couple of quick points.

1) Having bloodlust on your secondary weapon means you need to finish yoru first 5 fights with staff in order to get max damage rolling.
2) Rage and Dagger auto are a bad combination – it doesn’t really improve it’s damage at all as Quickness has almost no effect on attacks as fast as dagger auto. Plus you could miss at the worst possible time with Rage rolling. Rage works pretty badly for Necro’s in general, you would be better suited with either a heal proc or just a flat damage proc.

Always open and ready to go.

wiazabi.2549:

Bas.7406:

@wizabi – What other class stacks vulnerability…….

Got 80 nec , war , engi

If you want vuln stacking the engi nadespam is the way to go and its 20+ stacks aoe 1500 range. Yes you have to spec for it pretty common thing to do in this game.

warrior is still quite good ½+½+½ 2x vuln 1.5sec vs 0.75+0.75 4x vuln 1.5sec add in warrior might on gs + 33% chance for vuln on crit and the fact its cleave and hurts like hell.

Why you start with the pvp balance when talking about vuln stacking im not really sure what to make of so well care to explain and also the part about warriors not moving faster.

Yes, nade spamming engineers are common, but it’s pretty much their only reliable build. However, there are not many engineers so you are good there.

In terms of warrior, it’s a slower applications fewer vuln stacks, and you have to be in melee.

Remember in terms of damage – melee is tops than 600 than 900 than 1200. 1200 range items typically (longbow ranger excluded) offer less damage per attack than a melee attack.

Servers don’t count for dungeon running unless it’s EU or NA. Servers really only count for RP type events (though you can guest now) and WvWvW.

Relair.1843:

Too bad staff is the only weapon you can even try to keep the little kittens alive with. And even with max healing power and enough regen from mark of blood to even out-heal the jagged horrors bleed out, they still die to anything strong =( Although it is fun to see all the little hamsters stampeding around until an aoe gets them.

The whole ‘they are a utility they’re supposed to not be very good’ thing might very well be true but Anet certainly misrepresented the class pre-release if thats the case. Every screenshot had necro surrounded by minions, every blurb talking about them was minions minions minions. They never said ‘Oh by the way, minions are situational at best and semi-useless at worst, they’re designed to be dead every 30 seconds once you are level 80 and are doing anything remotely challenging. If you like pets please don’t play this class.’

I find it ironic and hilarious that there are tons of people on the necro forums who want their minions to be better and want to be able to use them in more situations, and there are tons of people on the ranger forum who want to be able to go pet-less and stow them for damage buffs. They should have some kind of exchange program for us =D

Yes and no! Staff 2 is the easiest to use to keep them alive, but life transfer heals and focus 4 work as well. I never really worry about keeping them alive. They do their job pretty efficiently.

As for the ranger part, that is always funny. Necro’s want their pets to be like Rangers, and rangers complain endlessly about their pets.

sas.6483:

I’ve been playing 0/0/30/30/10.
Greater Marks, Flesh of the Master, Necromantic Corruption.
Transfusion, Vampiric Master, Fetid Consumption.
Vital Persistence.

Armor: Soldier’s. My runes are a little up in the air right now, currently I use 5x Vampiric and 1x Crest of the Soldier, but I’m thinking about 6x Dolyak, or 6x Melandru, or maybe 2x Vampiric and 4x Earth, or something like that.
Jewelery: Soldier’s with Knight’s slotted.
Weapons: Knight’s; staff, axe / focus. I am thinking about swapping axe / focus for dagger / warhorn. Currently I use Force and Accuracy offhand; I’m thinking about Blood and Accuracy offhand.

Utility: Blood Fiend, 2x Minions (usually Shadow Fiend and Bone Fiend, but I swap back and forth), Signet of the Locust, Flesh Golem.

I end up with about 3.2k power, 3k armor, 28k health, 20% crit. I mostly play WvW, and my goal is to not die or take as long as humanly possible to die. I go back and forth about whether or not the 10 points in Soul Reaping might be better elsewhere, or whether or not to use Carrion jewels instead of Knight’s. I’d love to find a place to put Minion Master, but I can’t give up Greater Marks and am very hesitant to give up FotM. Any advice is welcome.

haha, wow! you must never die with that build. I would recommend not using the Staff until after you have your minions attacking. Staff tends to confuse Minions intially.

Bumping for fun

Lothial.7859:

Lighten up, it was just a joke on you guys getting buffed up. I was reading through all the class forums on what people are saying about their class with the new updates.

I figured it was a joke :P. I thought it was pretty funny. We have been considered very strong by the very good players for some time, and this buff made me giggle inside.

@wizabi – What other class stacks vulnerability while dealing high damage with that ability. The only class I can think of that does that is Engineer, and they have to trait full on for grenades to get that capability. We have that ability with zero traits.

If you think Warriors are way better you have yet to actually play one at end game. I have an 80 warrior, and your either glass cannon or banner warrior in pve, and in pvp you are either GS or nothing. They are roundly considered the worst class in tournaments and outside of shout heals and banners provide zero help or support in pvp.

Necros and Engineers are unique playstyles that require forgetting the way other classes play. Warriors don’t move faster they just have a flat learning curve. They are an easy beginner class that requires very little to do a bit, but once you learn how to play you see how quickly they are easily beaten.

Invictus.1503:

I run necro regularly as my main and have used MM build quite frequently before any patch, after some patches, and as recently as yesterday. I can honestly say that they are still very buggy. Often my bone minions act more as cheerleaders watching the fight than actually participated (which sucks because I often blow them up and hate when they blow up too far away from the agro to score a hit).

It also does’t seem to make a big difference on where I am in the battle. I’ve run with dagger MH (so close melee), staff (far distance) and recently been running axe to test that out with new buffs (mid-range). My minions act about the same with all three of those weapons.

Staff is perhapst he worst weapon to use to begin a battle as MM. Dagger works, but there are reasons it’s not optimal for MM. I would go into more detail, but Bhawb has been working and testing out different weapons with Minions since I am unable to play regularly for awhile. He has also put together a very simple aggro guide on MM based on different things we have spoken of over the last few months.

They don’t have a bad ai. They just don’t respond the way you think they should. Remember they are single target utilities, not pets designed to follow your targeting so they respond differently.

Zuer.2814:

I just recnetly made 80 with my necro. He’s in full exotic berzerker gear save the back piece which is rare. I run a 30/0/10/0/30 build and really enjoy the damage. I use axe/focus and either d/d or staff depending on the situation.

I havnt memorized all the skill names or anything but the one minion utility that’s on a 20 sec CD that summons 2 little pets you can detonate is what I have a question about. The tooltip says that it’ll do around 1500 dmg when I detonate them. I have yet to see that damage crit yet though. Is it possible for the explosion to crit? My crit rate is around 50 atm and still nothing. As I use them like portable bombs they’re the only minion I use for my build.

Any feedback on this would be appreciated.

Nope, minion abilities are tied to the trait lines and their stats. They are not tied into yours at all. Besides using minions when not built for minions is generally not advisable.

Sodzilla.5239:

It’s not a load of BS. I farmed with minions for about an hour yesterday and they still display the same random stalling and sometimes not attacking at all during combat. I believe the problem is linked to pathing and this would explain why some people see the issue more than others. This would mean that obstacles and different ground geometry would cause the minions to display their buggy behavior more often and less often depending on where you are in the world. Also, I’d imagine if the AI issue is linked to minion pathing, it’s also the reason we see ranged minions, who are less dependent on pathing, working better than melee.

If you still believe that the minion AI issue is a load of BS, this is a video from about a month ago displaying the problem that I spent very little time making.

Except over the last month there have been two major minion patches to help improve their AI. Oh wait, all the videos showing bad AI are over a month old. Wait What!!!

I actually spoke with the player who did the first video, and he readily admitted that the water pathing could have been screwing it up. We also spoke about the various methods used and that the main culprit was the flesh golem. The flesh golem has seen significant improvement since that video came up, but it’s okay we know summoning the dead is one of the Necro traits so we forgiv eyou.

CHIPS.6018:

Orrian Warhorn is pretty good. Cheap too.

Bingo that’s what I was thinking!

Why won’t this subject die? 75 percent of all Necro’s agree this is a bad idea.

I give you credit Chips, you are thinking outside the box, but this is a bit too much outside.

There can be only charr.

There is only charr the rest are just imitations.

The question you have to ask yourself is do you want to be the one stomping or the little guy getting stomped.

I will have to hold a vote as to which guild missions we do first with 70 members we should be able to rock out the points needed

manveruppd.7601:

Dude if 185 is 20% of 926 that means 926 is 500% of 185! Percentages aren’t reversible that way! An 80% increase would mean 185×1.8=333
Not that I’m complaining!

Haha, you are looking at it in terms of additive math. I am using associative math. I was simply explaining how the calculation can be done where it comes out to 80 percent. I gave you an 80 percent difference (key word) while you simply gave me an 80 percent increase. Isnt’ Math Fun!!!

Wait until you start getting into multiplicative versus additive math. The proc rate of our weapon sigils is multiplicative so 10 percent on one weapon and 10 percent on another weapon does not equal 20 percent chance to proc.

Having said that it appears I was about 50 points off on what the base number used to say and about 450 points off what the actual heal was :P.

@rennoko – Actually a lot of us despise staff, that we routinely run A/F and D/W over staff. Staff is pretty awful if you look at in terms of damage and don’t really like the fear on it. If you don’t trait for it, and only use it as a secondary source than it’s even worse.

I prefer D/W and A/F for MM and Power builds. For MM I run A/F main with D/W when I get someone in close. For Power I run D/W with A/F as my secondary to stack vuln if needed.

Let’s preface this by saying that if you think Axe 1 is horrible damage than you should never use any weapon but dagger for auto attacks.

Having said that, Axe is not a sit and auto attack weapon. I swear I think that these forums are half filled with people who actually think things through and another half that run around like chickens with their heads cut off.

Why are you comparing a single slot damage such as dagger’s auto (if you are using dagger 2 for damage than you need to see a doctor) to Axe where you have two slots of damage abilities? I seriously think that half the people that play any video game formulate opinions without being subjective and asking themselves why this ability was programmed to be weaker than another ability.

Axe is not comparable to dagger. Axe is a good mid-range weapon with an auto attack designed to help top off vuln stacking before hitting Axe 2. It will never match Dagger Auto attack or it would be overpowered.

Dagger is more damage because it allows for more danger. See that’s what balance is. You see more risk – greater reward. The problem with axe prior was that the damage was low enough where dagger or staff were still preferred.

Comparing Axe 1 to any of our other weapons outside of scepter is ridiculous since it’s a completely different style of weapon.

Login.5102:

? Your minions are not ready to be summoned, and the utilities they offer are not ready. Not to mention after you get pounded as a moah when your Summons are ready you have to sit there and slowly summon them in combat. A good mess would have killed you, and messmers switch there elite often to moah when they see a mm.

If you stand around doing nothing while moa’d and then whistle while standing in place waiting for your minions to come off CD sure. Switching your elite is impossible to do in anything outside of wvwvw and balancing a game off wvwvw or basing anything off your experiences in wvwvw is ridiculous.

Again, Good Mesmers don’t run Moa because it’s virtually worthless compared to time warp.

I want to face youin a match do you just stand still all the time? Do the guys you face just stand still to summon things? You do realize that outside of MM I have the same abilities every other Necro has when their abilities are on CD. It’s not like I suddenly become the weakest player on the planet.

MINONS COUNT FOR LESS THAN 1/3rd OF DAMAGE. They are a utility skill not my only source of damage. Seriously how bad do you guys play where you constantly lose if your minions die?

I will try to get you an invite later today, but I am sure someone in the guild will catch this and invite you.

Oblivion.8307:

Anyone can feel free to add me in game, I’m also considering making video guides for necromancer. Would appreciate feedback to let me know if the necro community would like this.

You already know my feeling on the matter mate. Whatever you decide to do let me know, and I will give you the props.

Login.5102:

When a MM gets moah’d, turn all his minions into baby moahs that can still take damage.

ATM moah destroys all minions and puts all of our utility’s, heal, and elite on CD.

Anet has said that this is not how they wanted moah to work, so why has no one thought of this?

I have played MM regularly in tpvp. No good mesmer uses Moa. Time Warp is a significantly better elite for teams.

MoA getting rid of my minions is fine, by the time I am out of Moa they are ready to be summoned.

Flumek.9043:

<—— A upcoming civil engineer, accepting the world is doomed by “economist who know their sales margins”.

Only the tooltip sad heal ~200hp. actualy healed 500hp.
when doing % math, u need to know to what number the % are reffered.

“increase the heal by 80%”

500hp + 80%(of 500hp) = 500 + 0.80*500 = 500 + 400 = 900hp

This post isnt meant personal and i hope that the salesman can take a joke. And it was a mistake by many, cz the skill tooltip had the wrong number. Thats why its good to see how things are in real life not just on paper………….nice morale ending huh? =)

I can take a joke :P. My point was that even if they used margin math it still comes out to a 80 percent increase instead of a 400 percent increase if you do your math a little differently. Took 80 percent of the base and added it to the base. I simply did an 80 percent difference on the number. 185/.20 = 926. 185 is 20 percent of 926 that means there is an 80 percent difference between the two.

It’s all about how you look at the numbers, and how you do the math. Math is not always additive.

I do love engineers. I actually work with pump engineers and my job is to understand their thinking and apply it to real life. :P

No problem, I need to test out the new AC with my minions. I hear other people freaking out about the changes.

@Ratphink – Thank you for testing minions out for a logical period of time before erupting in a fit of rage because they died. It sounds like you had a good experience with them. Their siphon health ability is amazing even as a Berzerker geared MM I have a much easier time staying over 20k health a majority of the time. All I ask people is to take the time to test them with an open mind. What minions did you use?

@anchoku – You should give minions a test, run multiple versions, and give them a fair shake. They aren’t perfect, but they are better than some people give them credit for. I have been trying a ds build and it’s a blast, but I die so quickly.

@abelooi – I don’t have super minions. What i have is a basic understanding of what their purpose is and how they do their job. Are they perfect no? Do they work effectively? yes. They are as effective as every other build we have in the situation you described. In fact in a lot of cases they offer more ability. From your comments it seems that it’s more a playstyle issue than a build issue. Those of us who enjoy minions and have spent 100’s of hours messing with them find them to be the better alternative to condition builds, and less need to be perfect as with well builds.

@Rennoko – I used Blood Feind in tournaments last night. It is significantly better than what it was, but I am not sure it’s worth losing Consume Conditions. The bigger heal used when I need it combined with the condition cleanse is very strong. I did survive significantly longer with 3 people hitting on me.

@Manuver – The original base heal was 185 it is now 926. 185 to 926 is a 80 percent jump. As a sales guy, I know my profit margins. Think of it this way, you are selling something for 926 that cost you 185 you just made an 80 percent profit margin. It’s very simple take 926 and multiply it by .20 that gives you 185 all they did was take 185 divide it by .2 and that gave them an 80 percent jump.

Nemesis.8593:

Can you compare the staff initiation to a high burst glass cannon thief played perfectly ? All they have to do is spam the correct rotation on you, and they can put out 18K damage in under 2 seconds without the possibility of retaliation in that time… If you survive the 18k in under 2 seconds then you can continue fighting… to win after something like that, an initiation like that… requires way more skill then what the thief that learned his rotation is using.

To be honest thiefs are not that much of a problem… bunker elementalists and OP healing – BM build from rangers… those are simply insulting if you go conditionmancer on them.

Nemesis, I love your opinions usually. I disagree with you on the point that a good theif wins. I consider anytime a theif runs away to be a win :P. Therefore I win more often than they do.

As a MM player, I find BM rangers, the old nade engineer before the nerf, and trap rangers to be the biggest headache. Bunker ele’s take forever, but they aren’t lethal. It was the balance arcana guys that were crazy. They suffered a major healing nerf, and I am interested in seeing how they survive.

alexparris.3754:

This build looks great. I have started a Necro and only at level 21, but loving the use of minions. Now the patch has aided minion builds, I definitely want to go down this route.

I am currently using dagger and focus, using bone horror, shadow horror and run speed signet (swapping for well when im not running much) and its ace. I am tempted by axe but dagger feels so powerful.

What would you say the best way to spend points is at low levels? I have put 10 in spite and 1 in death magic so far, but with the changes, do you think its worth going in at least 5 death magic to get the jagged horror?

I was also looking at 30 blood magic and 20 death magic for a final build.

What are your thoughts?

I always go 10 in Death Magic first. The reduced cooldown is essential at lower levels. After that picking up 10 in Soul Reaping and 10 in Spite are the best ways to go until you reach lvl 40. From 40 all your points go back into Death Magic or Spite. I prefer Death magic for more lifetime on your minions or into Siphon Health from minions.

Dagger/Focus is fine. Dagger/WH is better for pure personal damage, and Axe/Focus is great for building vulnerability for your Minions. What alot of guys do is Focus 4 and Axe 1 to build vuln. Use Axe 2 swap to dagger/Wh hit wh 5, smack with the dagger until CD on weapon swap is up than swap back to axe hit 2 restock the vuln and repeat.

Bumping in case people forgot

abelooi.9156:

MM in arah lupi (or arah in general).

Fixed two patches ago, but that was an issue. I still did it

abelooi.9156:

New AC bosses.

Haven’t seen them yet, I will give you my input once I do.

abelooi.9156:

Places where mobs drop fire-well aoe, or that shaman kitten that shoot flames.

Never had an issue, with either of those. I have two ranged that I have usually spread out. I may lose Flesh golem if the damage is obscene but otherwise it may kill one at best, but never all of them at once.

abelooi.9156:

Young and old karkas.

Rarely do I lose more than one since Bone minions don’t count because I am blowing them up. I lose Bone fiend and resurrect him 24 seconds later, but that’s damage I don’t take so it’s like a free blind that means it’s a win.

abelooi.9156:

Every single champion mob worth its salt.

Again, I may lose one maybe two, but they are back up 24 seconds later, and the only one that has ever wiped them all out was a giant before I learned to use Flesh Wurm against Champions.

abelooi.9156:

Those AC elementalist ghosts.

Haha worst example so far. Those get farm killed rarely focus on my minions and if my minions are dumb enough to stand in it, it means they focused on a minion and not one of us which is a win. Usually only lose a bone fiend if it’s targeted.

abelooi.9156:

Harathi hinterland chains with the bazillion of four-legged frak. COE alpha. TA greater nightmare. Assorted silver mobs that can wipe glassy dudes (they can wipe your minions too).

CoE Fixed, TA never had an issue in fact it was a big bonus to have them on that fight. Harathi is a joke because you are there pre level 50 when you actually get the bonus health – Nice try though.

abelooi.9156:

Going underwater (automatically wipes your elite) (sometimes unintentionally venture into a slight swimmage).

So far this is your first valid complaint.

abelooi.9156:

Hotw bosses whether the ones with the icy spikes, or even butcher when he spins because you have no way to control your minions.

Never had an issue, and I would venture that well guys have it worse since they move and you immediately lose your well damage. Butcher isn’t an issue as I don’t stack my minions on top of him (again why are you stacking them in one spot?)

abelooi.9156:

HOTW 2 final bosses of paths 2 & 3 are underwater.

Same issue arises for any power necro, but nice try bringing up multiple instances of underwater problems

abelooi.9156:

Places where you have to run and there are lavas around.

Now you are just being ridiculous, if I am dumb enough to stand in a damaging lava pit (where are these by the way) thereby killing off my minions I need to stop playing and go to bed.

abelooi.9156:

You yourself mentioned fracs 10+.

So you have 2 of 12 that are correct issues. The rest seem to me like playstyle issues. if you are stacking minions on top of each other than yes you are going to lose them. If you bring shadow fiend than that’s a l2p issue as shadow fiend in dungeons is a dead guy. Bone Fiends, Bone Minions, Flesh Wurm and Flesh golem for dungeons and you will never lose more than 2 at any one time.

abelooi.9156:

Bas.7406:

HiSaZuL.2843:

manveruppd.7601:

HiSaZuL.2843:

Golem doesn’t even warrant being an elite. It has less damage then some clones… and on par hp with thiefs elite… which summons 3. Point is they are lacking in survivability. Mostly due to aoe killing them instantly and partually due to the fact they don’t regen so you never start combat with your minions being fully healed…If MM could provide even the slightest in combat passive healing from damage or passive it would solve it partualy or at least let them all heal ooc. And if they just plainly gave summons aoe resistance… it would solve half the problem on the spot. If they all regenerated ooc and had some resistance to aoe my gripe would be solely with underwater lack of golem and being stuck with elite that punishes MM.

Well you can’t really compare the Golem to a skill that only has 30" duration and 4 times the recharge. TBH I’m happy with its damage and survivability, I only have a problem with its AI.

As far as ordinary minions go, hbowever, I completely agree, they should give them ooc regen. Or at the very least allow us to dismiss and resummon! Having them clinging on by a sliver of health makes me feel like the opposite of a GW1 minionmaster, who started out pathetically weak until he got his first few minions up and then became an unstoppable juggernaut. GW2 MMs get weaker as the fight progresse, which is psychologically rather dispiriting. If I run to the next point with 2 minions almost dead and 1 on the recharge I might as well lie down and let them kill me.

Yep. Every second fight is you engage every minion dies and you have 4 skills on cd with maybe golem out… Useless that is. You either run away and come back when things off cd or just tough it up and do it yourself which is utterly moronic in its base concept. And again minions are still made out of wet paper golem included.
Soon as he can survive some dungeon aoe… you can tell me hes alright. Besides its not like he regens in combat any fights that last more then 30 seconds incur a useless elite that provides nothing to the table. Past maybe 20k damage. Thats a few auto attacks from warrior/thief whoopdy doo… some elite that is.
Can you play MM… sure… is it enjoyable… I think sticking a hedgehog up your own kitten would be equally gratifying .

What dungeon are you in, and what minions are you using where you lose every single one every second fight? I have done every single dungeon as an MM, and Flesh Golem almost never dies, bone fiend rarely dies, Flesh Wurm only dies if he pulls threat (rarely), and bone minions die because I tell them too.

Are you just rushing in with your head down screaming LEROY Jenkins!!!! I have no idea or concept as to how you would have to play in order for every single minion to die every single pull or even every two pulls.

I think the point is that minions are not useful in fights that actually matter. Which means you are no different from having just weapon skills and leaving the utilities blank (because that’s what they’ll be). I’ll give you minion bombs, but really?

Actually there are few fights that they have issues. Only fractals lvl 10 are they completely incompatible. Name the fights, and I can tell you how it’s workable.

I went ahead and invited you to the All-Necro guild Slag, would always enjoy more Necro’s We have had a few all-necro events that have turned out awesome!