I just feel sorry for guardians, they’ll never be viable in any meta without a complete overhaul. Sure they can do amazing damage with greatsword, but their survivability is way too low. 10k health wtf anet.
Tier A
Engis
Guardians
Necros
Warriors
Thieves
Eles
Tier B
Mesmers
I don’t think the meta has properly shifted away from necros because people finally got a taste of condis via an easy to play class. Engineers are a decent bit better than necromancers but require FAR more skill to play. People have latched on to necros because they were incredibly overpowered a couple weeks back and they have a lot of synergy with spirit rangers despite filling the same role an engineer does. However, a large majority of players will continue to play necros because it’s a more effective option for them. It’s also far tankier with plague form, protection and large amounts of condi clear. Necros are also pretty effective against spirit rangers with their CC and condi clear/control.
Alas, spirit rangers will continue to dominate the meta and reign supreme until we see some changes. They’re stupid easy to play, their elite is simply broken in its efficacy and their on-point physical DPS from storm spirit is insane considering they’re actually a condi class… Did I mention AoE burns, AoE blinds and AoE protections for the entire team? Or their insane amounts of condi damage? Or their unique spot as dodge king? Or their insane amounts of condi clear? These will continue to dictate the meta until something is changed. Their efficacy given their difficulty to play is simply laughable and makes a mockery of the entire PAX tourney.
A large number of classes have an increased or decreased rating based on how effective they are against necros and rangers because of their prevalence. A good example of this would be how mesmers have been dropped from being a necessity
to being a liability. When their role as a support/physical dps takes too much support to make their own support effective then they simply lost their viability.
It’s also worth mentioning that it seems like a lot of this game in high level play has become about comp over skill more so than any other period in its recent history. This worries me greatly for this game’s longevity and fun factor and points to a problem that’s too complicated to accurately pin-point. Many people would say it’s simply because this is a “condi” meta, but I believe it goes a bit deeper than that. Just because a lot of the blatantly overpowered classes have recently been condition classes does not necessarily mean that the problem of comp > skill has to do with condis.
FINALLY, if any class that requires any modicum of skill sees another nerf (engis, d/p thieves) then I will lose all hope in this games balance team. We have seen two incredibly easy to play and incredibly overpowered classes recently; the game’s reliance on skill is at an all-time low and it’s depressing to see in action.
Very well said. If only 10% of the people on the forums were able to contribute with this level of understanding.
Right now there is a HUGE disparity in skill/experience between tiers of players due to so many hardcore players continuing to quit the game over the last 10 months or so. I have an inclination there was a purposeful attempt to buff lower skill classes and nerf high skill/high reward classes to tighten the spectrum of skill/experience between players in hopes of making the game more “competitive”. In the last 6 months on NA there has been a trend of 1 or 2 teams completely demolishing everyone they play because of this. That’s not good for the game or the players. In a way buffing low skill classes MAY have a positive impact on this issue. However, I really hope they didn’t buff those classes with that in mind as I don’t believe that will solve the root of the issue and this has introduced quite a few new issues.
The only reason it’s top tier right now is because most players/teams still don’t understand the build and how it plays well enough to deal with it effectively. It was a lot stronger before the necro god tier patch but I still think its a very strong spec. As people start to figure out whats actually happening it will get tremendously weaker. It also has some hard counters that can almost completely shut down the build.
S/D effectiveness relies on the other player making mistakes. For instance I see a lot of players trying to run from s/d thieves which is crazy. It’s probably harder to run from a s/d thief than any other spec in the game. I also still see A LOT of players dodging flanking strike instead of larcenous and blowing burst on evade frames.
rly interesting to put spirit ranger on s-tier and same spot like necro…
dont know, but its for sure not a to strong build.
looks like rangers goes always rly fast from b-tier to s-tier when they only get a good balanced build.
its more weak build then the necro atm and you guys put him on same spot…
dont know how u can do that.
a skilled ranger player cant destroy a skilled necro player.
as spirit ranger u have only a chance with a fast fight, but vs a good nec its always a long fight and you lose that because when spirits death you will lose so sure.
a spirit ranger can lose vs a skilled cc warrior, the warrior have better win chances then the spirit ranger
a spirit ranger lose more often vs a necro as he win him
a spirit ranger can lose vs a s/d thief when he first destroy spirits with shortbow
spirit ranger vs bomb engi is also 50/50
and bomb engi get nearly always a decap
sry guys, but its so a well balanced build in my mind atm and for sure not in s-tier
It appears as if you’re only considering 1v1’s which are a relatively small part of competitive play.
I didn’t think so, was just curious cause someone said they need a slight nerf. Were both rangers in [SYC] spirit rangers?
its not HGH its bomb/nade thats needs to be toned down. I think the real source of the problem is nades though. And of course they were both spirit rangers :p
That’s sad that one could cheese their way to the championship. They prolly play their classes way better than me but this seems like quite the copout.
They didn’t “cheese their way to the championship”. They are great players that played the most effective builds atm. They definitely deserved to win. They played the best and none of their players got carried.
I don’t think running 2 spirit ranger is cheese (3 would be imo) although i do think its imbalanced to have more than 1 unique class on a team. Whats really sad is that one of their core members (skovex) who is an amazing player had to step down from the team because he plays ele/war and he knew they wouldn’t be able to win with an ele or war.
I didn’t think so, was just curious cause someone said they need a slight nerf. Were both rangers in [SYC] spirit rangers?
its not HGH its bomb/nade thats needs to be toned down. I think the real source of the problem is nades though. And of course they were both spirit rangers :p
Honestly since your an ele it’s probably pretty easy for you to over rank engineers. Frankly I don’t think an engineer can take much of a nerf and still be viable. It’s struggling to earn a spot on rosters as it as. A second spirit ranger or necro is already very hard to argue against.
The reason i ranked engi so high is because the are one of the only things that can deal with spirit rangers NOT because they crush eles. Being able to counter an ele means absolutely nothing right now because no one is playing ele. I don’t think there is a single top tier ele playing right now on NA and a lot of EU ele have swapped classes. You shouldn’t assume everyone is unable to be objective.
I believe they can revert Cleansing Water for starters, so it won’t have the randomness about it which players hate. If you use utilities and skills you don’t want uncertainty.
Anyway, as the meta settles you begin to see how little build diversity there actually is.
I didn’t think so, was just curious cause someone said they need a slight nerf. Were both rangers in [SYC] spirit rangers?
its not HGH its bomb/nade thats needs to be toned down. I think the real source of the problem is nades though. And of course they were both spirit rangers :p
I would really love to see mesmers back in competitive play. I think they are a very entertaining class and add a very interesting dynamic to the game. At the same time I would prefer to see less AOE condition spamming (top 3 classes in my list are guilty of this) and more focus on single target skills. It not only would result in higher skill plays but it’s also A LOT more enjoyable to spectate.
This list also reflects the level of power creep thats happened as of late. I think the game would benefit more from seeing S tier classes nerfed than to see C tier classes get buffed.
S Tier:
=Necromancer
=Ranger
-Engineer
-Guardian
-Thief
1 class per team imo. It would still be the top classes but it would be the top 5 instead of the top 3. Until the game gets balanced having more than 1 unique class on team skews the balance even more.
LOOOOOL!!! a Guardian trying to nerf Necros, this is hilarious!!! and extremely biased ofc.
Dhuumfire: if something is done to this trait, it should be moved to master or even adept tier. The reason is quite simple, we would have a 30 points trait worse than a 10 point trait in engis. This should never ever happen. It’d only claim bad design! bad design!
Terror: moving it to GM won’t be necessary if Dhuumfire is nerfed. No condi necro would ever take 30 points in Spite for an underwhelming trait. Terror was nerfed last patch, so no further nerfs are needed to Dhuumfire or Terror. Grow a pair, you are a guardian, the most solid class, ever wanted in pvp and if you get a counter (like the current condi necro) adapt, learn to play and stop crying for nerfs to other classes you don’t play or you don’t know widely.
This PAX tourney should be done with the current builds, i.e. no more nerfs no more buffs. This will teach Devs and players that necros are OK, and not OP like a lot of uninformed ppl like to say
I play Necro as well, and if you don’t think the class is overpowered tier 1 not close, then I just gotta say, you’re not playing it right. You will see at least 1, if not 2 Necros in over half the teams in this tournament, including both that make it to the finals, I could almost guarantee it. And actually, what I don’t like is that Necro makes Guardian MORE necessary, not less, because good luck winning a team fight without cleanses in the current meta. I don’t want to nerf Necro to the level of unplayability, I just want more team comps to be viable than Guard Necro Ranger Thief X.
So basically they new they were op before this last patch and many of the top necros were telling Anet that even they wanted a nerf lol.
So what does Anet do?
BUFF THEM MORE LOL!!
Get it together anet
We were not OP before the patch, but I’ll definitely agree that we were not needing such a buff. Just bug fixes.
I think he means the patch after burning but before DS 2x damage fix. I’m getting the impression most people don’t realize how big necro got buffed yesterday o.O
I think this just goes to show you need to actually play the game before you start making arguments about balance. This is the #1 reason why it’s so frustrating discussing balance on this forum.
TRUTH
For people that haven’t read, there have now been 4 people that have decided to use insults and “factual” evidence that just isn’t true to defend necro. Some of the “facts” they have stated are completely wrong and clearly a game knowledge issue. I think my point has been sufficiently illustrated. These forums are not the avenue for productive balance discussion.
well actually you do. with the flesh golem trick you can start the game with 10% which will still help mitigate a lot of damage when using the combo in the video. Like I said, I’m not defending stealth openers. That issue deserves its own thread.
We can start with 30% now since June 25th! Blood fiend, shadow fiend, flesh golem
giggity
1 love
LOL! so you’ll actually start a game with more DS than the video. I wonder how many people know their own kitten class well enough to know this. This game just seems to be too complicated for people to figure out. People would MUCH rather complain and rage on forums than actually figure out how to play.
I get the impression that the people asking for lifeforce at the beginning of games have failed to utilize the class to it’s fullest potential which makes it a L2P issue.
In the case of stealth-bursts this is not the case. The only thing a necromancer can do is plague-form to survive such a burst. Also as a guardian myself, it is very hard to survive stealth openers. It’s more about lucky dodging and block-prediciton than anyting else. In this specific scenario it has nothing to do with L2P.
Simple fact is necro have the ability to mitigate A TON of burst as shown in the video. Very close in comparison to a lot of other classes that have similar damage output. I’m personally not against stealth openers because I find it interesting but that’s just my opinion. My post was not to justify stealth openers but to provide evidence that necro has the ability to mitigate burst damage.
For normal bursts absolutely, but not for stealth-openers. There is no viable way to generate life-force before. Only thing you can do is put marks and you hope you gonna survive it.
well actually you do. with the flesh golem trick you can start the game with 10% which will still help mitigate a lot of damage when using the combo in the video. Like I said, I’m not defending stealth openers. That issue deserves its own thread.
This is just an example of how much damage mitigation a necro has access to.
Yes, if a Necro has Spectral Armor, they have 6 seconds or so of sustain. So OP. Since you seem so fond of telling others to L2P, how about you acknowledge that you posted this video under deliberately misleading pretense in order to stir the pot. Don’t burst a target that has all of his defensive CD’s. L2P. Hurrr durrr
Sharp is right to disregard this thread. He didn’t even need to see the video to know that you are full of bulla bulla.
I did not post this to stir the pot. I posted this to show people some of the defensive capability of necro. I dare to say most people would have no idea this was a possibility even after reading the patch notes. Keep in mind there is an icd on the life force generation from spectral armor which unless its bugged, would actually be stronger in damage mitigation (in some scenarios) than whats show in that video.
I get the impression that the people asking for lifeforce at the beginning of games have failed to utilize the class to it’s fullest potential which makes it a L2P issue.
In the case of stealth-bursts this is not the case. The only thing a necromancer can do is plague-form to survive such a burst. Also as a guardian myself, it is very hard to survive stealth openers. It’s more about lucky dodging and block-prediciton than anyting else. In this specific scenario it has nothing to do with L2P.
Simple fact is necro have the ability to mitigate A TON of burst as shown in the video. Very close in comparison to a lot of other classes that have similar damage output. I’m personally not against stealth openers because I find it interesting but that’s just my opinion. My post was not to justify stealth openers but to provide evidence that necro has the ability to mitigate burst damage and apparently a lot more than people seem to realize. I second what the above poster said when it seems like a lot of people missed the patch notes.
I get the impression that the people asking for lifeforce at the beginning of games have failed to utilize the class to it’s fullest potential which makes it a L2P issue.
In the case of stealth-bursts this is not the case. The only thing a necromancer can do is plague-form to survive such a burst. Also as a guardian myself, it is very hard to survive stealth openers. It’s more about lucky dodging and block-prediciton than anyting else. In this specific scenario it has nothing to do with L2P.
Add plague form onto this and you bordering tank status with one of the highest dps classes in the game.
You don’t “waste” anything. The flesh golem trick sacrifices nothing. If you give 10% to the casuals that don’t know the flesh golem trick then all the pros will be running out the gates with 20%. Sounds like you don’t know the flesh golem trick o.O This is L2P no?
Yeah, it puts your elite on cooldown at the start of the match. Sacrifice nothing? Lol.
Looks like people like to say everyone else L2P. Does it make you fell better?
You activate flesh golem and swap to another elite during the countdown. It puts nothing on cooldown. Thank you for providing such a great example of what I’m talking about.
This is simply an example of the tools necro have to mitigate A LOT of burst. I’m reading a lot of people asking for lifeforce at the beginning of games because of stealth ganks. With the golem trick, you’ll start the game with deathshroud and you’ll have the ability to mitigate a substantial amount of damage as displayed here.
I get the impression that the people asking for lifeforce at the beginning of games have failed to utilize the class to it’s fullest potential which makes it a L2P issue. GW2 is a rather complex game and it’s going to be very difficult (as we’ve seen in the past year) to balance for top level and casual play. I’m not sure about the casual player base but the hardcore players are definitely frustrated with recent changes. So many top tier players are quitting. This has been a reoccurring pattern. Very few hardcore players have stuck around since the beginning. Hopefully Anet can find a good level of reward per skill that is balanced at both casual and top levels of play.
This make no sense at all.
If you are capable to start with 10% life force wasting your Elite, why don’t we get those 10% life force anyway?
Also, lol @ the L2P thing.
You don’t “waste” anything. The flesh golem trick sacrifices nothing. If you give 10% to the casuals that don’t know the flesh golem trick then all the pros will be running out the gates with 20%. Sounds like you don’t know the flesh golem trick o.O This is L2P no?
The real solution here would be to fix the flesh golem trick and give 10% or to even start at 20% but lower the max pool of lifeforce.
As I’ve said, if we split EVERYTHING and maintained 3 versions of every skill in the game (PvE/WvW/PvP), we’d be adding a LOT of work for the balance team. As it is, we try to keep most things consistent, and only split where we feel it is needed.
Isn’t it harder trying to make compromises between the three? Rather than tweaking numbers a little between each?
I mean, they are already incredibly split due to the overwhelming effect critdmg and foodbuffs have. It would be nice if we could get some consistency between modes through number tweaking.
eg. Killshot 1shotting people in WvW while being near useless in PvP. Backstab critting for upwards of 14k in WvW while D/P thieves are considered only a tier above warriors in PvP.
This is simply an example of the tools necro have to mitigate A LOT of burst. I’m reading a lot of people asking for lifeforce at the beginning of games because of stealth ganks. With the golem trick, you’ll start the game with deathshroud and you’ll have the ability to mitigate a substantial amount of damage as displayed here.
I get the impression that the people asking for lifeforce at the beginning of games have failed to utilize the class to it’s fullest potential which makes it a L2P issue. GW2 is a rather complex game and it’s going to be very difficult (as we’ve seen in the past year) to balance for top level and casual play. I’m not sure about the casual player base but the hardcore players are definitely frustrated with recent changes. So many top tier players are quitting. This has been a reoccurring pattern. Very few hardcore players have stuck around since the beginning. Hopefully Anet can find a good level of reward per skill that is balanced at both casual and top levels of play.
Balancing a game is hard and requires understanding more then just numbers. It requires a bit of philosophy and understanding player behavior. The following videos might give you some insight of the topic to help you address your true concern more precisely.
I just think it’s cute that we have this thread going concurrently with a thread that’s saying Necro’s have no survivability, death shroud is horrible, and that Necro’s, in order to be viable, need to start PvP with life force.
Well said Lordrosicky.5813..
Ye QtHman,talking about GW2 needs a Harvard Phd…..Some ppl say good stuff even without being “top player”,i want to hear everyones opinion and i can judge it afterwards..And now my judgement is that you have an ego problem even tho you have some truth in your words
Some people say good stuff even without being a top player, perhaps. But being a top player gives one an insight into the game that the majority of the population do not have. It is unfortunate but true. All Hman is suggesting is a place for concentrated “top player,” feedback without being drowned out by “Frenzy 100B OP!”
It will help with both new players coming into the game to easily be able to look at, and find opinions/ideas from the best, as well as provide more useful and relevant information and discussion about the current state of the competitive scene between players who actually play in the scene.
I really do not understand why people would be against something like this. Both boards, this one and the proposed board would easily be able to coexist.
This is a great idea IMO. Something needs to be done with regards to the way this game is being balanced.
I want to say the game can just be balanced normally (because I felt like it was so close pre-patch), but at the same time we see powerful builds being created even without buffs to things (ex. spirit rangers).
“without buffs to things”
June 25th patch:
-Spirit-activated skill range increased from 180 to 240 (360 when traited).
-Call Lightning: Increased the damage by 150%.
-Vigorous Spirits: This trait has been merged with Spiritual Knowledge.
-Spiritual Knowledge: This trait has been moved to the Adept tier.
So EVERYONE is saying those things right? Not just “high” tiered players? I think that is safe to assume that anyone with a reasonable mind can have a say in the balance discussion, not just those looking to segregate the community into “tiered” levels.
And yes, if you’ve played the game it’s pretty evident.
I think that is safe to assume that anyone with a reasonable mind can have a say in the balance discussion
Do you think a bronze level LoL player would have been suggesting the shift from Resistance based defense to HP based defense between seasons 2 and 3?
Do you think a bronze level player would understand the cause and impact of the support items being shifted to junglers in S3?
Do you think a silver level Sc2 player understands why void rays have not been nerfed yet dominate him every game against a protoss?
The answer here for the large majority is no. Unless you follow a game thoroughly (watch ever LCS/WCS match ect.) there is no way a low “tier” player will comprehend enough about the highest levels of play because they have not experienced it.
not just those looking to segregate the community into “tiered” levels.
No one is looking to segregate anything. It just so happens that some players put more time into the game and are better at it. These are “top tier” players. There is no push to create some super elities top tier group, it just happens nauturally.
I haven’t played those games, but I’m sure that you can browse the forums of those servers and you’ll more than likely find players within those categories who did just fine identifying those same issues.
And just to be clear, “They should just make a forum for the top 2% of players that spvp in Gw2…..” Yes, someone was looking to segregate the players and that was the person I was speaking with.
There are opinions that will always be valued over others; because they have the experience, an on looker might have a very good understanding of the meta, but he lacks the experience to full comprehend what’s going on, that is the issue here.
That’s it period, I don’t know how you can argue about this for so long, when its a very obvious subject, to me this seems like you are just arguing for the sake of it, so please just take this to pm’s and stop derailing a topic yet again.
RockSteady Once you start playing the game at high lvl spvp you will understand what he’s talking about.
What are you, the god of gw2? Get over yourself. His opinion is as valid as yours.
I’m not the God of Gw2 but there is alot of players who think they know what they’re talking about when they have no idea what is really going on unless you’re playing the game at top lvl of spvp you have no clue of what’s happening. Watching a game and thinking you know some stuff it’s not the same as playing it i’ve experience those things first hand.
And this is why the forums are a joke most of the time you got those players who doesn’t understand the game or they think they do talking all kinds of things. They should just make a forum for the top 2% of players that spvp in Gw2…..
“I’m not talking about Hotjoins”
I couldn’t have said it better. This is something Anet REALLY needs to start considering.
I would also agree the current meta is probably the worst I have experienced since release with exception to the block bug meta. I felt the meta was in a pretty good spot until the “necro god tier” patch completely obliterated that for a number of reasons (not just OP necros). I’ve also been a strong supporter of Anet but I do feel something needs to change with the balance team. The number of buffs necros received is mind blowing. Once some major bugs get fixed (deathshroud, poison) necros are going to be so far beyond any other class it will be comical.
Something CLEARLY needs to change in the way Anet is balancing the game. They’ve stated multiple times before that they closely watch the forums to gather information on what to buff/nerf. I feel this is a terrible way to gather information. 90% of the QQ I read on the forums is ridiculous to be honest. Anet needs to up the efforts in communicating with top tier players who understand the game better than anyone else.
I also would like to see more emphasis on active skills and decision making rather than a paper/rock/scissors system of one build countering others. I share the OP’s wants to get rid of automated pets and systems that take player decision making out of the equation.
Nice guide, but I still think that Valkyrie is superior to Soldier’s amulet in a team fight point of view. And S/D is superior to D/D right now anyway :p
Soldier’s and Valkyrie’s function quite a bit differently depending on the build. I do think Valkyrie’s is more of a consideration on S/D than on D/D.
Hey guys! intothemists.com has debuted a very useful guide making tool that will hopefully be of great service to the community. The guides can be found at http://intothemists.com/guides. I made a guide for a D/D Ele build of mine that has proven to be extremely successful at high level competitive play. While running this build, I was able to contribute to my teams undefeated championship victory in the Curse sponsored Master of The Mists tournament as well a championship victory in the only other tournament we have participating in which was the SOAC week 3 tournament sponsored by TDTV.
Hopefully this guide will be helpful to the community. A link to the guide can be found here http://intothemists.com/guides/guide.php?id=9. If you’d like to see the build in action check out my twitch at twitch.tv/blinxpvp. I have linked videos of our shoutcasted matches in the info section. Thanks and good luck!
I agree with Xeph. I would have preferred an online tourney that everyone is able to participate in but I do understanding the marketing behind the PAX deal. Hopefully we will be able to represent this amazing game in a competitive and entertaining manner to help the game grow as an esport so there can be future events that all players can attend.
