Hammer necro +1, imo if it remains more a ritual weapon, and we don’t actually hit people with it; similar to how all our weapons currently work. Also I love the ideas of playing with Jagged horrors.
Or just make it not terrible.
It does bounce between minions, but it has priority on how it chooses to bounce and minions are low on it.
Johnathon Sharp also pointed this out as a defense against criticism of this patch, that they are moving LF gen to main hand weapons.
However Scepter especially is still lagging far behind in LF generation department. The change from 3% to 4% on Feast of Corruption was not near enough.
I would give the 3rd attack in the Scepter auto chain, Putrid Curse, a LF generator of about 3-5%.
I totally agree that it is still not good enough, but its in the right direction.
Even if DS had hp that it was supposed to have in first place it doesn’t help with DS regeneration, it’s just more buffer. More buffer doesn’t help you sustain it any longer, which is my original problem with all this kitten. You get to low LF, you stay in low LF and never get up. Especially when you have nothing to hit. Necros don’t have similar mechanics like guardian block heal or thief stealth away and heal. They just take damage. LF regen depends too much on killing something (in case you have power tree 5 points) and you don’t get enough for hitting, even with new little oomphs.
Actually LF regen has been consistently buffed for a few patches. Axe 2 doubled its LF regen, most main-hand weapons have had their LF gain upped by 1-2% LF, Grasp is now 15%, Shadow Fiend’s Haunt is 10%. We are at the very least getting there in LF generation, the two big problems remaining are starting a fight with LF (or an easy way to generate it quickly), and having increased gains when fighting multiple enemies.
He does apply bleeding, btw. And yes, everyone (ANet included) agrees reanimator is not good at all right now.
Well, if I recall the old tests correctly, there was a theory going around that we had 120% HP, but took double damage; essentially making it 60%. With the fix, it is entirely possible that they were right all along.
I miss it, but I’m not sure they will be able to introduce it here. HP cost skills are difficult to balance because at their core they need to be stronger than normal (either in CD or power), and yet still remain fun in their play (chosing if the cost is worth the benefit).
I’d love to have them, but it could be really hard to work in properly.
DS needed the change. Its an issue of too much power (absorbing infinite damage in one hit every 10 seconds) being invested in very niche scenarios (only single hits, only when it finishes LF pool). If they remove that power, they should give it back to more healthy setups. For example SA+DS now makes you stupidly tanky for the duration.
Now, I’m not saying I love the change, or that it isn’t a nerf. It is a big nerf especially in PvE. But it should open the way for more ways for us to eat big hits and not drop instantly.
Dagger 2 isn’t used for damage, which is the point. Dagger 1 does all the damage, so the other 2 skills must be for utility purposes. Dagger 2 allows you to stay in the fight better, dagger 3 lets you lock them down.
I don’t think dagger 2 is bad at all, I love it.
In my opinion, this paves the way for more things like SA+DS (which is basically an invuln to damage), and also more healing/LF in general.
Endure Pain makes you not take damage, this is a specific case that basically does the same thing while in DS, except can also be used without DS to give fairly high LF gain.
So Spectral Armor is looking a lot better these days.
Terror was nerfed because Dhuumfire+terror was too strong. Except now you need Dhuumfire to be a condi necro.
It annoys me, and it is going to make us weaker in certain situations for a while, but I think it opens the door for more strength to be given to DS and LF generation now.
What he is meaning is that WvW is not a place to find balance. They cannot possibly balance WvW because of the enormous number of variables. It is chaos, and it can’t ever be fully balanced. All they can really do is make sure that there aren’t too many things that are overtly abusive.
I dueled a thief (easily the worst class for AI because of stealth) and came back with this.
Aggro doesn’t seem even remotely broken anymore. In about an hour of dueling, not a single minion kitten ed out. They acquired aggro quickly, and every time it was dropped due to stealth, they re-acquired it very quickly as well. Not saying it doesn’t possibly kitten out due to pathing sometimes, but it is improved a lot.
I wouldn’t say no to some way to make them return.
Also, Flesh Wurm has wall-hax, he can see through stealth.
The torment can be dodge rolled just like any other skill?
Fire fields make less sense
1) Bone Minions aren’t ever used for the healing on hit. You might keep them alive for a while, but Flesh Golem, Bone Fiend, and Flesh Wurm are all still giving HP/s while Bone Minions provide the AoE
2) I am not against the idea of them healing on death, I would suggest it work like Death Nova’s damage though, not triggering on sacrifice.
3) This isn’t burst healing either…?
The vampiric master seems really strong. I regularly run Cleric, with 1200 healing power, meaning it would be healing for about 1.3k per death. So Bone Minions are not only dealing 4-5k damage, plus poison and weakness, but also healing me and nearby minions for 2.7k every 20 seconds (or 16 traited). That is a lot of added power into an already tanky build with tons of healing.
I do think we have tons of weakness, but I don’t see Epidemic being the problem.
40 second CD for a whole 3 stacks of torment is nothing. If Scepter 2 was on a 30 second CD people would be complaining that it is UP, and it wold be. It is about the second part of the ability, which immobilizes and deals fairly decent damage, that is important, and not easy to land.
Clarify what part of WvW you are aiming for, pug zerging, coordinated zergs, small man groups, solo.
WvW has never, is not, and will never be balanced, period.
A cleave attack is when you hit the adjacent target(s) of your target.
While that is how cleave often ends up working, and how some cleave works, that is not the only way the term is used.
I’d like to see one two handed weapon be added. I far prefer great-axe, as it has a more Necro feel (we aren’t your standard cloth casters, GW necros are very much about up in your face combat) than greatsword or hammer.
Torch honestly doesn’t fit that well lore/gameplay wise. I know they brought in Dhuumfire, but Necromancers are far more about cold than they are burning (unless they played on that and made the torches anti-torches in a way, freezing instead).
no sorry immunity trumps any counter we have
just like invul trumps any way we have of mitigating damage or healing it back up
8 seconds of immunity to conditions every 60 seconds at the cost of a utility skill does not compare to being able to not only void conditions on yourself multiple times, but punish your enemies for using them on you, without costing us anything.
It is a good ability, it is a fun ability, it is not an overpowered ability.
This, so much this. The ability is good, it is tons of fun to use, but no way needs nerfing.
The only time I felt “wow, this is really really strong” (as in, maybe needs tuning), was against other Necromancers that had minions (or pets in general), as not only do they take full stacks and happily keep moving around, but also always eat the immobilize and damage at the end.
However, I’ve 1v1ed quite a few necros since the patch. I don’t actually remember the last time the Immobilize landed (it is so easy to dodge) unless I didn’t really care about it or was already out of dodges. It is very easily avoidable, and is not OP at all; in fact I am very impressed by how balanced a brand new ability is.
This is a terrible idea. You can already dodge roll the end effect, leaving you with a whopping 3 stacks of torment, and that is it. You can also get out of range pretty easily, especially in group scenarios where the Necro can only stay near one person.
Is it strong? Sure. Does it need nerfing? Hell no.
They are supposed to, I haven’t ever tried it though.
3 ways to get stability and immunity to condis isn’t exactly that special on its own, hell we can have 3 second of stability every 7 seconds, and frankly better condi counters than immunity. The real thing is what can they do during that time, and how do we counter it.
The fields themselves would not stack, if for example you put Well of Blood down on top of Well of Suffering, as they have different fields. But WoB would still heal allies there, and WoS would still damage enemies, and the same applies to if two people dropped WoS right on top of each other.
Flesh Wurm not only breaks CC but also gets you away from them so they can’t just CC you again right after.
Honestly I’d like if they just fixed up the minions that we have now so they properly filled their roles as the way minions are set up right now, added HP bars so the skill cap is raised on minions like Bone Minions and Blood Fiend, and then added in one or two “sustain” minions that had very high survivability, but low damage, for people like Sikari who like to really play sustained minions (which should be viable imo, but our current minions don’t really fit it).
I 100% agree that they need to make both playstyles available, and I see what you were meaning.
Not necessarily. There is a balance between wanting them to die, and maximizing their utility before they die. Every minion besides bone minions are absolutely useless unless they are up for a while. But removing their damage to make them live longer (which has to be done, to make them live longer), makes them useless to anyone not running the traits specifically designed around it. It is two completely different, and should be viable, ways to look at minions. But right now one (medium survivability, high damage, high utility) is vastly favored.
I have to agree with ronpierce here. But to specify, I don’t think minion damage right now is too much of a problem because they are easy to kill. However, if his changes were to be implemented to make them much more difficult to kill, then damage needs to be toned down.
What I would love to see is a combination of what has been suggested in this thread about survivable minions, and what we have now. I think both should be viable playstyles, and I’d like to see them both implemented. Basically, I’d like to see minions that can be killed, but have more strength, and then minions that are very survivable, but don’t have that same strength.
There is nothing about the current kit of axe that says “condi weapon” it applies vulnerability, which does nothing for condis, and does 100% direct damage. Adding poison makes it a bad scepter with less range and less condi damage.
At most axe can be turned into a hybrid weapon through on-crit effects because it hits fairly often. Also, who wants a third weapon with condition damage on it?
Lich is basically super-damage mode. Useful for power builds, you jump into it, it gives you huge damage for the duration, and since it increases your base stats, anything that you have in the world that scales off those is increased, such as wells.
Weakness is no condition cleansing, and everyone in PvP will target you, in PvE very few weaknesses, besides no access to healing.
Flesh Golem is a general utility skill. He has fairly high damage, cripples on hit, and his active is a charge where he runs in a straight line, knocking down/around anyone he hits, and dealing damage. If he runs into something, he will continue charging and doing damage/CCing, but will not move, making him very strong against structures.
Weakness is that he can be killed and kited, his charge often bugs out and “catches” on things, making him not hit, and his AI sometimes bugs and he doesn’t attack.
Plague is a tanking/condition control skill. It increases your base survivability stats by a ton, applies poison AoE, and either bleeds, cripples/weakness, or blinds, in AoE every second. Almost always used for the blind, it can completely shut down the offense of everyone in the radius for the duration. Also synergizes with Chilling Darkness, applying lots of Chill.
No condition cleansing, or any healing on your own. It is also really easy to walk out unless you use the cripple or having chilling darkness.
Also both transforms kill all your minions, and don’t allow you access to your normal skills.
Dagger is the pure power weapon. I see the axe as an hybrid weapon with some direct and condi damage on it. Poison would be great too on aa
Except it has absolutely no damaging condis on it. Scepter has hybrid potential, as does staff (although its more utility than damage), and Dagger is our sustained DPS weapon, fit axe elsewhere.
I think they should add a tank minion in as well, it is just that they have Jagged Horrors here already.
…
So there are different ways to build this group, however the key traits are Necromatic Corruption, Fetid Consumption, and Vampiric Master. That isn’t to say you need all 3, or can’t run them in other builds, but the idea is that you have minions who do a lot for you while alive, and are built around the idea of keeping them alive and autoing as much as possible.
So a build example could be 20/0/20/30/0, with staff (greater marks) and axe/dagger and focus. Staff/focus keeps up some regen, staff 4 pulls off conditions (except its bugged now), and those extend the life of your minions. So if you keep up, say 5 minions, each time they attack you’ll get HP, for every minion up you lose 1 condition per 10 seconds. So while they are alive, they keep you alive, and in turn you try to keep them alive. It is similar to what BM Bunker Ranger’s used to do, but you are more active in needing to keep them up.
@Anchoku, we aren’t getting boons like thakittens just counter to our design.
Also what about an ability like Summon Jagged Horror – summons one jagged horror (max 5), 15s CD. Every time it is up you can use it to summon a new jagged horror.
Also, someone had mentioned something like they have in Starcraft, a unit that you could plant and have it spawn minions. Summon Shambling Horror – summons one shambling horror, on death shambling horror spawns a jagged horror. Its active roots it in place for 10 seconds, spawning two jagged horrors.
Not saying any of these ideas are balanced, but I’m just throwing stuff out.
(edited by Bhawb.7408)
The point is that minions have never been designed around having that kind of control. You are not supposed to have a UI to control them, you attack something, they attack it too.
I’m guessing they got the message (tons of people dislike the “girliness” of the current legendary set), and will be giving us nicer legendaries to use.
If it weren’t for the gigantic Putrid Mark bug(?), Well of Blood is a great utility to run with minions as not only will it heal them for tons, but you can give them retaliation as well. But atm there are too many condis flying around for Deathly Swarm and Putrid Mark to take care of.
That said if you are in PvE, you can get a lot of AoE healing out of a Necro with a little Blood Magic investment, and you don’t need to worry about condis there.
So it was announced they will introduce new skills into the game, and it got me thinking about how they could make minions more interesting and varied. Currently, there are two ways to play with minions, one is a symbiotic relationship, they keep you alive, you keep them alive, the other is less care-bear; minions are there for their utility and damage until they die, which then causes bad effects.
One is built around the idea of basically using minions as Health/Condition batteries, siphoning conditions off you, healing you with every hit, and otherwise being there as extensions of you. This is built completely around the idea of sustaining a small army of minions, which then sustain you back. Blood Fiend is the embodiment of this group, the longer you keep him alive, the longer he will keep you alive, with very high sustain, however the cost of him dying is large.
The other is built around using them very much like utilities. You summon them, use them for their utility purposes (their actives) and then when they die it isn’t much bigger of a deal than when any of your other utilities goes on CD. Bone minions are the embodiment of this group, they are summoned specifically for their active which kills them, their only use in living is dying at the appropriate time and place.
I feel like both groups could be done better though, and I think introducing new skills would work towards this. I’m not the first to come up with this, but there are a few minion ideas that I think would work nicely.
For the first, I’d love to see a version of Vampiric Horror, except that every basic attack is a life steal for himself. And also a “tank” minion, one with very high HP and toughness, but does not do lots of damage.
The second I think is pretty close to where it needs to be, once they fix up minions in general. Not saying nothing could be added here, but I feel like the current minions fill in this area nicely.
Also, I think a lot of people would like to see a minion “factory” type playstyle. Essentially summon lots of really crappy minions, not caring if they die. I’m not 100% sure if this would fit into the game as is, or if it fits into the design wanted by the developers, but if they put in appropriate limits, I think a jagged horror summon, and/or a shambling horror summon (a minion that spawns a jagged on death), we could see more playstyles about just bringing out lots and lots of minions.
Anyway, I’d love to hear what people think about this. Minions are a fairly core part of our design right now, so I’d like to see if there are minion-centric playstyles I missed (that are valid within GW2, and are not overriding someone another summon class has). Am I right in the three styles? Did I miss anything? Feedback? Thanks.
Edit: wow that was more than I planned to write.
TL;DR what new minions would you like to see?
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Edit: And we’re live!
(edited by Bhawb.7408)