Guild Wars 2

Vydahr.4285:

So Soldier wouldn’t work well? Or would that build need to be yet another type of MM build?

Soldier just isn’t really viable anymore, the problem is the recent update increased the damage on a lot of builds and largely increased the healing power scaling an MM will get. All siphon skills were boosted by 20% (which also increases the healing power scaling), Transfusion’s scaling went up, then quite a few new traits also increased the sources of healing power. In addition, MM got a good damage buff if you want to take it, so if you go Spite you don’t actually end up losing damage over the old Soldier builds.

Soldier builds don’t have enough healing power to make healing minions worth it, 400 heal is absolutely meaningless when it doesn’t stack with other heals, and PVT MM won’t be getting good heals. So the most important thing is to stay alive and deal damage. The whole point of PVT is to be selfish, so yes obviously the selfish choice is best.

And in a soldier build you should have both axe and dagger, so that is irrelevant.

If you prefer offensive builds then yes Spite would be the preferred setup, in which case you go:
D/WH + A/D
Leeching/Renewal (or energy if needed), Pack Runes, Cleric amulet
Spite:mid/top/bot
Death:top/top/top
Blood:mid or bot/any/bot
SoV/Bone Minions/Bone Fiend/Flesh Wurm/Flesh Golem

For SR MM
WH > D offhand
Cleric > Soldier
Bone Fiend > Bone Minions
FitG > Dumbfire
Soul Marks > Unyielding Blast
Unholy Sanctuary > Death Nova
Transfusion > Unholy Martyr
Leeching/Energy/Renewal sigils > anything

Also you should replace those runes because Undead just don’t offer anything meaningful. Pack would be a much higher benefit overall, Grove are also pretty hilarious.

And it is worth noting, though this is more preference, that Blood Bond, Banshee’s Wail, and Life from Death are all viable options.

The key thing to remember about SR MM is that the whole point of using SR is being obscenely tanky and allowing your minions to deal the damage while supporting them with healing to keep them alive. You are doing a much stranger “hybrid” build, which just isn’t worth doing on MM, you define your build by what 3rd trait you choose, with SR being highly defensive, Spite being more offensive, and Curses being condi. You need to pick which of the three you want and specialize.

ButterOfDeath.2873:

Well that’s what the wiki says, if you get tons of precision they won’t crit more the same way that more power won’t make them hurt more. That’s what i meant.

I know its what the wiki says, but it is an important distinction because minions proc Chilling Darkness, Bitter Chill, Parasitic Contagion, and Corrupter’s Fervor, which is an under appreciated benefit that condi builds can abuse a bit better.

You have more than enough CC that the 2 seconds of chill doesn’t come close to comparing to an extra dodge or 926 healing + damage.

The total hard-CC chain of an MM is:
12.5s of immobilize
1s knockdown
1.5-2.5s fear
2-3s daze
For a total of 17-19 seconds of hard CC

On top of that Locust Swarm is more than 100% cripple uptime, Dark Path is 33% chill uptime, Chillblains is 25% chill uptime, Flesh Golem is 83% cripple uptime, Unholy Feast is 33% cripple uptime.

There is no need for more soft CC on top of that.

robertul.3679:

Staff on necro is like shortbow on thief for pvp. Mandatory.
Good luck being 24/7 in melee as power necro.

Its really easy actually, I haven’t used staff since putrid mark was nerfed and it hasn’t been an issue.

ButterOfDeath.2873:

The minions only inherit your condition damage, condition duration and boon duration

This is not accurate, minions do not inherit any of your stats, but conditions they apply are treated as though you applied them in every way including traits.

Energy and Leeching by far

This is something I could go for.

I’d actually use WH offhand, the swiftness is major. And I’d use whatever the amulet that gives healing power, condition damage, and toughness is. Healing power is absolutely mandatory right now to keep minions alive.

nekretaal.6485:

@Spectral Grasp.

Spectral Grasp could use a buff. (I think Spectral mastery, which does three things for spectral skills, should do three things for spectral grasp). Other spectral skills get their duration extended, but this does nothing for grasp which isn’t a Spectral buff. Maybe spectral grasp could get a inflicted chill duration buff.

Honestly all grasp needs is some more chill/LF. Say 6s of chill base and 20% LF would probably be enough, that’s 25% LF and 9s base chill every 24s with the trait, which solidifies its niche as the best chill/LF skill.

You can do it, Curses/Death Magic/Blood Magic. I’d say it is weaker than normal power MM because scepter has significantly worse synergy than dagger does. The problem isn’t so much condi vs power anymore due to all important minion traits being in two lines, but more the available weapons and how well they work with what minions need.

If we say got a condi/support weapon and a CC/condi weapon that had support and CC on condition weapons, all of a sudden condi MM would be the stronger version.

Most of our utilities are only weak because of numbers, whereas our skills are weak because of bad design.

Captain Unusual.9163:

Does reflecting Dark Path still teleport the reflector to us? I haven’t seen it happen in a long time, but haven’t really been looking.

Think of a reflect as the enemy casting your ability, with all the same effects that would cause. So yes, the reflector would be teleported to us, since it would be just like they had cast Dark Path. Spectral Grasp on the other hand, would pull us to the target if reflected.

Also, the devs definitely don’t think we should be ping-pong balls. That isn’t an issue of a designed weakness, but a weakness caused by oversight. Much like our pre-patch issue of awful sustain was a design/balance problem, not design.

Reflection wouldn’t help us close the range, as a reflected knockback would knock them back.

Sandrox.9524:

I did the simple test and it gave me same numbers on LB. Anyhow if this true then why no one reported this ? why anet ignoring this?

Because it isn’t a bug.

Muchacho.2390:

Maybe but staff is still our most used weapon set in pvp. And that is not only because the alternatives are bad but also due the fact that long range, fear, chill, poison, condi transfer and reliable LF generation are actually really good in pvp not to mention the ability to place marks beforehand (really good against those kittenty stealth professions).

Staff is the most used literally only because it is our only second condi option, and our only long range power option. Don’t confuse it being the only option for being a good option.

The problem with Nomad is you will literally never kill someone. The Soul Reaping MM build (which is what you’d use this with) already has pretty long kill times, but this doesn’t matter too much in PvP so long as you already own the point. Nomad would make you insanely tanky, you probably will never die in a 1v1, but you won’t kill someone either, so I would question its ability to actually fight.

Sandrox.9524:

Show me where it says,and since 10% more dmg is not that much of a differ,you cant really tell,I just tested and got same numbers +10-20 give or take

The wiki isn’t a holy, faultless source, it is written by players and very often wrong when it comes to strange interactions. For example, the minion wiki is wrong, minions don’t inherit any player attributes like it suggests.

I literally just tested it and staff very obviously deals more damage, you can get LB to 1k without staff really easily, and then it hits around 1100 with staff, so if you need someone to tell you it deals more and can’t do a simple test in game I’m not sure how to help you man.

I enjoy playing the profession, so I continue to play it.

They probably took the SS right as they were downed, you can tell by the LF amounts that they would have around 30k HP.

A field can be any shape, it doesn’t have to be a massive circle, and strictly speaking Spectral Wall isn’t a “line” it is a thin rectangle.

And why would you care about losing three stacks of torment with all you gain with Reaper? That’s a completely inane complaint.

Damage in DS uses your weapon damage, its a well known and really easy to test fact. Staff will cause your Life Blast to deal 10% more damage than using another weapon set

It is a line because it is a wall, and there are a number of line fields.

Someone is salty.

striker.3704:

I honestly thought you weren’t ever gonna do that since you were saying MM is 1 v 1 focused and taking reaper conflicts with that, but no complaints here.

I won’t be using Rise! for that reason, but I think Reaper (without taking any of the utility skills) will be just fine. Greatsword will likely be a nice weapon, Reaper Shroud will probably be a major improvement over Death Shroud, and the traits should be really nice.

My guess is Reaper MM will be a straight improvement over Soul Reaping MMs, and whether or not they will be worth using over Spite MM will depend on how any trait changes happen, how much damage GS/RS do, and if Axe is made less garbage.

Few notes:

1. SoV>Blood Fiend, for a whole lot of reasons, but yeah just straight up better to use SOV as it provides better over time healing and a better active
2. Soul Marks will probably do more for your build, its a good bit of extra defense and the unblockable is actually really nice, while the speed of Speed of Shadows is needless with WH and/or Quickening Thirst/Banshee’s Wail, and you won’t get bursted in those extra few seconds while DS is down
3. Banshee’s Wail also probably better than Vampiric Presense, as VP does very little for the minions, and you benefit more from the near 100% uptime Locust Swarm
4. And I would at least test Blood Bond/Transfusion, although your choices are both equally viable for Celestial

The protection stacking is actually super nice for spectral builds to be tanky as balls.

MeGaZlo.9516:

Well… Yet it does not sound like something good, but as a lack of something better…

I just do not understand: the staff is really so miserable in comparison with other profession’s AoE\Cond weapons, or am I missing something important?

Compare Necro Staff to say Warrior LB, Elementalist Staff, Mesmer Staff, Thief SB; these are all similarly long-range utility weapons that don’t necessarily bring damage (ele fire staff in a zerker build is the only real exception, but obviously they only get 1 weapon so you can consider fire their offensive second weapon set).

The large problem with staff compared to these other professions is the lack of actual utility that is unique and powerful, especially in combination with the rest of the profession. If you look at staff in a vacuum, you’ll see its AoE CC, conditions, stuff like that and think “wow this weapon seems okay”. But then you compare it to our other weapons, and you realize everything it does is done by our other weapons, often better, but at a shorter range. This is why Staff works much better for condi builds, the combination of Terror with Reaper’s Mark, and the damage from the conditions make it a much better fit for condi, whereas on power builds it literally does nothing unique except have range. This is even more true since Staff’s utility was nerfed due to condi builds.

Staff is pretty solid for condi, still not amazing compared to a “proper” condi weapon, but it works better since it actually deals damage in a condi build. On power/bunker/support it pretty much has nothing special except being ranged, which allows for ranged LF/control/“damage”.

I’ll definitely be Reaper/Death Magic/Blood Magic for MM. The cool thing about Reaper is that its bruiser-styled trait line (mixed damage and defense), so full-damage builds can go Spite/Soul Reaping or Blood Magic/Reaper or Curses/Soul Reaping/Reaper without having any trait line devoted to defense, yet fully defensive builds have Death Magic, Blood Magic, Soul Reaping, and Reaper to choose from, without being forced to take much/any offense.

There is no reason to have a pull on a 600 range weapon. Also Grasp is really strong, its issue has always been its unreliability and how hard it is to fit it into a build.

MM takes as much “skill” to play as any other build, which isn’t saying much anyway. It isn’t remotely the passive problem that turret engi was, as playing with the minions requires a lot of active use of skills in order to keep them alive and on their target, and they don’t have remotely the passive defense, CC, and hard to avoid damage of turrets.

Bone Minions blow up according to whichever is closest to you, yes melee minions are a bit buggy, but if they bug all the time its on you.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

To solve minion pathing, they would probably need to change the way AI moves. This means allowing creatures to more easily step-onto things. But pathing also demands a route to the destination. You can’t really have minions walk through a mountain or wall. They have to go around it. They have to calculate a path around obstacles in a reliable way.

This. What people don’t realize when they talk about minions is that the reason they bug is pathing. Essentially, what happens is when you give the minions a target through aggro rules, it has to figure out how to attack that target. For ranged minions, they simply need to get within 900 range of your target, this allows them a lot of flexibility when it comes to HOW they get in range, which is why Bone Fiend/Blood Fiend bug out much more rarely. Flesh Wurm doesn’t move, so he can’t have pathing issues.

Melee minions on the other hand have to get right onto your enemy, which means they need to find a way to walk to their target. But this shouldn’t be a problem right? I mean mobs can always get to their target. Wrong. The problem is the minions are tied to a certain idiot who has a habit of jumping off of cliffs right in front of them and then expecting them to figure out how to path all the way around the cliff to the target while dealing with ANet’s awful terrain mapping, all while never getting outside the max leash range.

One of the biggest mistakes ANet made is having mobs that do not follow the same movement rules as players, yet being expected to keep up with them. Minions can’t jump or fall, meaning they can’t even follow their player up/down. But yeah, it isn’t a simple fix, realistically ANet needs to completely redo how they treat AI in the game, which hopefully thye have with HoT.

Sagat.3285:

just don’t use it.

Death Nova does, though not by name, show up on the log. It also seems to scale with minion power interestingly enough, although I haven’t done enough testing to be 100%, kind of wish I could multibox for that reason.

The minions transfer any condition on themselves, it does not have to be one they received from you. In addition to that Necromantic Corruption’s transfer from the Necro to the minion doesn’t happen until 10 seconds after combat starts. So if he applied 4 stacks of burn to the whole group of minions, he easily could have gotten 16-28 stacks of burning applied back, depending on how many minions there were and other things like if the Necro had anything ticking to start the NC timer before it started.

In addition, Death Nova deals 1300-1600 damage every time you kill a minion.

Also, all minion attacks are in the combat log now, including the explosion when you kill a minion. My guess is you are slightly exagerating how long it took you to die, that you didn’t notice another player was there helping the MM, or just that you literally ate kitten from all the minions at once in a freak accident.

But yes MM can do a lot of damage very quickly, especially if they have spite and soldier gear, and you kill the minions unknowingly. Flesh Golem hits for 1k+, Flesh Wurm 1k+, Bone Fiend can hit 1k on the cripple attack, blown up Bone Minions are 2k each, Death Nova is 1300-1600, then Necromantic Corruption would have transferred all those burns back as well, so that’s an easy 20 burn stacks back on you, Chill of Death proc, possible things like Leeching sigil proc for 975. And all of these hits are very front-loaded, so it is conceivable if you allowed them to all get close and weren’t paying attention, maybe really focused on landing your burst combo, that it killed you.

You can avoid teamfights really easily on MM.

Spite’s new setup is great, love it. Yes a few of them are % gated, but it absolutely fits thematically with the profession, and they are pretty strong besides that.

1) Plague is really niche now, you can only afford to use it on really tanky non-condi builds, otherwise it deals too much self damage
2) Lich is basically the same as it used to be, it either destroys people in an instant or is hard-countered and worthless
3) Flesh Golem is held back by AI issues, getting stuck on terrain, and the effective nerf the stability changes had on him

Overall, I think both plague and lich need a rework, as both of them are more or less “do this one thing for duration”, Flesh Golem just needs an AI fix and a more reliable charge.

Azure.8670:

Interesting enough I think a range increase would be vital as is stands. It almost would be worth taking if it was 900 or 1000 range as the weapon is currently imo. However I agree with everything else you’ve stated

Axe would still be an objectively bad weapon at 900 range, though technically stronger (I take it even as it is now, that’s how awful our weapon situation is atm). People do need to realize however that a 900 range axe will always be weaker attack for attack than a 600 range axe, because that extra 300 range is included in the “power budget”.

The minions do not proc any runes or sigils, because they do not have any runes or sigils, you using their active heal/elite skills procs it. Minions themselves only proc whatever they are given through minion specific traits and AoE buffs, in addition any condition applied by a minion in any way is treated as though you applied it.

As a side note, the wiki isn’t fully correct on all things minions, because very few players even understand how they work.

Lich Runes are awful. I get the desire to summon jagged horrors, but I think they’d have to be introduced as an OH weapon, where one of the OH skills summons jagged horrors as a bonus on-hit, and the other destroys them for some additional effect.

The problem with jagged horrors on a skill is that they aren’t really interesting; their DPS is really mediocre, they die passively (and procing death nova is their nicest use) so play involving keeping them alive is meaningless, and any secondary-actives on a summoning skill would basically make them glorified bone minions. So yeah, they’re just kind of boring, funny to swarm maybe, but it’d get old fast since you don’t have any mechanical depth to it. However they could make them really interesting, it will require more than just a slapped on utility skill though.

Axe needs its 1 skill to be un-nerfed, and imo I’d much rather see it have an attack speed increase to allow for better vuln stacking, which was effectively nerfed with the condition duration changes, and obviously more damage overall, I don’t think it should match dagger but at least match other weapons of similar uses, like Guardian Scepter.

Axe 2 needs a damage increase, and it being a whirl finisher would be nice.

Axe 3 should be a blast finisher.

I don’t actually think Axe needs a range increase, the range is still a really important advantage over dagger as 600 large enough that you can’t just kite it on a point in PvP, however a range increase would be fine as 900 would make it a true ranged weapon, whereas 600 isn’t long-range.

We’re about to get a shout that summons them (maybe).

Shroud. Lingering Curses condition duration is excessive in anything except PvE.

Skoigoth.9238:

I didn´t say the numbers should stay the same I just don´t get why Thief e.g. has no ICD on Stuff like Signet of Malice and Invigorating Precision, but we have to deal with this crap.

That has an effective CD, it is how quickly the thief can deal damage, and it only scales up to at most 5 targets. With no ICD SoV will be balanced against targets like Necro with Locust Swarm, Dagger auto, wells, axe 2, etc. hitting for multiple times per second and would be worthless against other damage. Its much better with a 1s ICD (should be per person hitting you) where it can be balanced against normal damage amounts, as DPS tends to be consistent while hits per second isn’t.

Mobility isn’t what’s keeping us back, lack of scaling defenses in glassy builds, lack of pressure in condi, bad AI and wonky interactions in MM, and a lack of damage/support/proper CC in bunker builds are what’s keeping us. Generally speaking, its our weapon skills that are holding us back, though in some cases our utility skills also aren’t filling the roles they need to, and Death Shroud still has issues.