Guild Wars 2

Amante.8109:

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

It is precisely because of these reasons that I do not want our grandmasters to become some kind of additional mechanic. If we get the option to toggle between what dodge we want on the fly, it will come with a stringent internal cooldown that will butcher the aggression and utility of those skills by half an order of magnitude.

You have made it clear that you believe the dodges should remain Grandmaster traits. While I see your line of reasoning, you seem to be working under the false assumption that the dodges not being Grandmaster traits means that they would have to be switchable in combat and on the fly. This thoroughly misrepresents the argument, as no one with an even cursory grasp of game balance is suggesting that. What the reasonable proponents of the “make the dodges baseline” argument are suggesting is that the dodges should be decoupled from the Grandmaster traits. That is all.

It would be quite overpowered indeed if Daredevil could switch between the dodges in the middle of combat. Again, no one reasonable is truly advocating for that. Can you go more into why you seem to think these two ideas are inextricably linked? You can already switch dodges while out of combat as you please, you just have to open the trait panel to do so. This is not a substantial barrier to switching them during windows of opportunity.

All that would truly be gained by such a change is the addition of new Grandmaster traits. Assuming the dodges went baseline and stayed the same in power, this would indeed be a buff, on account of gaining an additional trait choice that you didn’t have before. My bone to pick is that I don’t think having one more trait would “unbalance” the Daredevil in any meaningful way. If you believe otherwise, please elaborate further as to why.

You have to be more specific in your suggestions. I don’t have psychic powers. I can’t know what you are thinking unless you say it. Countless people don’t have a grasp on “proper balance”, so when someone says something to the effect of “Make the dodges baseline as part of our mechanic”, then unless a further restriction is stipulated I am left to assume that they’ll be swapped around on the fly. I’ve seen this forum be filled over the past few days with complaints that are irrational and suggestions that are over the top, so unless you can sufficiently differentiate yourself from that crowd, I’m not going to assume you are different.

The internal cooldown already has a precedent set: Evasive Arcana. Even with the limitations on attunement swap, the dodges still have an internal cooldown. So given either a freely swapping system or a cooldown on swaps, an ICD would be standard. A cooldown on swaps would be the most minuscule difference from complete freedom, since players will just sit on top of their default dodge until one of the other two is needed in a pinch.

Having the dodge type be changeable, but only outside of combat is the best suggestion. However, it is not only unlike everything else in the game, but at that point it is trivial. The closest in-game example is revenant legends, but these are only similar in the sense that you can swap legends, which change all of the non-wepaon skills. This is done to compensate for the extremely limiting design of the revenant. On the trivial side, there isn’t much difference between decoupling the grandmaster dodges + adding new traits vs. just adding new/more mechanics and keeping the grandmasters where they are. At that point, it is just aesthetics.

I’m not sure the daredevil is underpowered. But regardless of that, I’m going to make a case here: Making Escapists Absolution baseline would be a stronger change to the specialization than what you are suggesting. The thing with Escapists Absolution is that in PVP/WvW it is a necessity, and in PVE it is a large QoL upgrade. The adept and grandmaster tiers are chosen based on playstyle and build, but the master tier is heavily constrained by this trait. Even if you add new grandmasters, you still have to take Escapists Absolution. If EA is baseline, we can choose either Staff Mastery or Impacting Disruption for a significant damage boost, and the only thing that needs to be made is a new master tier trait, which is less work and less likely to unbalance everything.

This was the original suggestion before everyone started to get jealous of what other classes had. I still stick by it.

My theory is that because they were on the top of the game for so long, with their status falling from grace they aren’t used to ranger/necro status.

Go with a 10 scale. 1-3 are horrendous, 4-6 are average, 7-9 are good, 10 is pivotal and build defining. The reason why this independently rated system is better is because it doesn’t create a sense of false inferiority. In any tier there are going to be traits you’ll take 1st, 2nd, and 3rd, but this doesn’t necessarily mean that they are bad. Also this doesn’t provide a means of cross scaling: one tier of traits might be really good and another tier meh, but without an absolute system to go by you wouldn’t be able to make this very important distinction.

Likewise, how “certain” a trait is depends on the mode. For example, in sPVP and WvW Improvisation is the best. In PVE, Executioner is the best. So responses should indicate what mode they are talking about, because otherwise you’ll get confounding responses that are more of a measure of how many players play which type of game mode, rather than any statement on the quality of thief traits.

Basically the way this survey is designed is bad.

Body shot is definitely the weak link. The vulnerability is too short, the immobilize is a nuisance and can’t be used because the pistol doesn’t have any burst skills that would require immobilizing, and even as a projectile finisher Dancing Dagger is faster, cheaper, and more damaging.

If Body Shot were to apply vulnerability for 10 seconds and cripple for 5 seconds, then it would be a lot better. It would synchronize better with ankle shots and have a meaningful damage addition when used alongside of unload or weapon swaps. Even at this point, I’m still not sure it would be strong enough, but at least it is a start.

Also, base bleed of vital shot and sneak attack should be 5, not 4. Also, bring ricochet back. The situations in which someone would not want a bouncing projectile is extremely rare, to the point where I can’t think of an example.

Auesis.7301:

SB 1 and Dagger 4 are arcing projectiles. Based on height, they can land further than the designated distance. It’s just how the physics of the game works. At ground level you can get 100-ish, with some slight elevation you can get another extra 100 or so.

Firearms for all classes don’t use arcing projectiles, instead firing in a straight line. This means they don’t get any bonus distance.

Basically this. In the right circumstances I can fire SB1 to 1200+ range.

Shalien.9018:

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

It is precisely because of these reasons that I do not want our grandmasters to become some kind of additional mechanic. If we get the option to toggle between what dodge we want on the fly, it will come with a stringent internal cooldown that will butcher the aggression and utility of those skills by half an order of magnitude. Instead of getting these skills 3 consecutive times + 1 every 4 seconds (front loaded, so really it is closer to 6 consecutive times), we’ll get one of each every 15 seconds, 12 with the new grandmaster which will offer to reduce the cooldown. Or if they don’t get a cooldown, their effectiveness will be cut down to a third to put them in line with the other damage dealing dodge skills, making them mild nuisances rather than a potent tool at our disposal.

Dude, what are you even talking about anymore. You’re legit just making stuff up now… Maybe there’s a language barrier or something…

Its called standardization. A lot of people don’t realize what they’re asking for with this suggestion, so I’ll have to put it into perspective. To make the dodges into the mechanic of the DD, that is asking for a whole lot.

#1: 3 grandmaster worthy traits (the best in their respective fields) being made available without being traits…
#2: to be swapped between on demand, which is much better than any individual trait was due to the loss of exclusivity..
#3: alongside of 3 new grandmaster worthy traits of which to pick from to further augment the class…

A buff like this is so massive that it would make the Daredevil OP. Instinctively knowing that toggles with no cooldowns which provide such a wide and potent toolbox will be OP, the devs will nerf it. Either one of two things is going to happen: The dodges get cooldowns (10 seconds to be in line with other dodges + additional time for their increased power, so around 15 seconds). Or, the dodges get their effectiveness cut down by a third assuming the very simple logic that now we have all 3 and thus we don’t want it to be 3 times as powerful.

Making such a massive change is not going to happen, and I have evidence for this. A much tamer, more realistic buff was already shot down. In the first post of this very thread, Karl had this to say:

Karl McLain.5604:

Traits:
This iteration was mostly bug fixes. I’ve seen a lot of feedback on how Escapist’s Absolution should be baseline. It is the case that we believe this trait is powerful enough that it should be a choice in the trait line between damage, survivability and utility, rather than just a given. Driven Fortitude’s healing allows for usefulness in all modes where you take damage, where EA’s condition removal is situationally useful in a combat scenario.

As a mechanic buff, making Escapists Absolution baseline is my first go-to. Even as a master minor trait it was rejected, on the extremely shaky logic that condi removal is situational (seriously, where is there anywhere in the game that doesn’t have condis?). Something to the tune of 3 innate grandmasters with non-exclusivity + 3 new grandmasters to choose from is a nightmare that would make McLain an insomniac.

I’d still argue for innate Escapists Absolution. But even I know that the mechanic everyone wants is foolhardy.

Karl McLain.5604:

Animation update: All dodge animations are in the process of being iterated on. With that being said, in the next Beta weekend each custom dodge ability has had its animation replaced with what is called a ‘stub’, or a placeholder.
These stubs aren’t necessarily what the final animation will look like and may not even resemble the final product remotely (Huge disclaimer: Everything’s subject to change). However, we needed to replace the previously existing animations due to issues that couldn’t be resolved otherwise (i.e. Lag).

We are looking forward to the new functionality, but there’s a few pains that we’re getting through. During the next beta weekend, you’ll find that the Leap combo finisher for Bounding Dodger only works if you land inside a field. This is not intended and we’re already working on the fix for it (it’s in testing now). For now, it’s going to be trickier to get your leap finisher from Black Powder. There’s also a bug in the skill facts that indicate that it delivers a blast finisher, but it in fact a leap and will remain as such.

Other stuff:
As I talked about last update, Channeled Vigor’s now being tested as a 0.75 second cast (down from 2.25 seconds). We’re also toying with the endurance/healing values. The role of this heal is shaping more toward being high spike healing for the thief.

-Karl

I do wonder what kind of strange coding has lead to the skill being reclassified as a blast finisher…

Anyway, this is good to hear, and I would like to bring up 2 things.

#1: Have you considered making Bound do damage at the start of the dodge? It loses some of the aggressive nature the trait has, but it has more value as a defensive measure. After all, dodging in to someone isn’t nearly as practical or safe as dodging out of someone, and the other dodge traits are fully capable of functioning in any direction.

#2: Impact Strike → Uppercut → Finishing Blow really needs an buff. I wrote about it at length here. To summarize, the problems with the skill is that it doesn’t do enough damage or stun to distinguish it from basilisk venom, and the finishing mechanic is only beneficial in situations where you’ve already won and don’t need a boost. Thieves can already blind stomp and stealth stomp, so this skill really doesn’t add much.

I’ve gone further now. I already have a full set of exotic berserker gear and weapons with scholar runes, and ascended rings/amulet.

I had the cash, so I figured why not.

I think the build only seems OP because it is new, and no one is really equipped to handle it yet. Personally I took one look at that quickness and thought “bountiful theft”.

Personally I don’t have a main.

I do find the druid to be a bit lackluster. I throw the word mono-tool around a lot, and I mean it. I guess in certain circumstances a burst heal will be useful, but to run it in PVE I have to give up quickdraw and spotter.

You know, I actually crafted a sinister set with for my mesmer before June 23rd. I think I put it on maybe 3 times after the update. All the traits and skills I was looking forward to were changed, nerfed, or bugged. I think “maybe its not so bad”, but then I put on the sinister gear again only to be disappointed.

I loved what they did with mantras for awhile, but now I’m just waiting for the chrono.

I do wonder why it was this trait was nerfed. Its not like anyone complained that it was OP, or that it was OP without anyone complaining.

As far as QQ threads go, this isn’t the worst I’ve read. Check out the thief forum if you don’t want to have faith in humanity anymore.

What I found personally frustrating about the Dragonhunter is that, in the last weekend, we didn’t get a fraction of the updates that were listed for us. I wanted to make the DH a project and really analyze all of the different skills/traits and stuff, but I couldn’t because we were handed a beta that was already rejected.

I’m definitely making the DH one of my projects during this next weekend. I’ve got to analyze the attack rates, DPS, deployment times, trait synergy… all of it. Because right now, the DH is definitely losing in the specialization race.

NikeEU.7690:

I’m not a Mesmer expert but how sure are you that Domination is better DPS than Dueling? I’m not seeing that being so clear, especially when you think about having Feedback AND Well of Action on your bar. With only 2 Mantras its… not clear that I would prefer Domination?

I crunched the numbers (roughly) once when theorycrafting with the support chrono build on the forums right now. Even at 100% crit rate, the 10% extra crit damage on full zerk only amounts to 7% or so. It’s a lot less than what Fragility alone gives. Likewise, phantasmal fury gives less than Empowered Illusions.

The new chronomancer meta is going to be illusions/chaos/chrono to maximize the effectiveness of quickness and alacrity. Fay worked out that it is better to just buff the heck out of everyone than to try and manage mesmer’s inferior personal DPS and unpredictable phantasm DPS. You can read the thread, but be ready to trudge through a 200 post debate. Apparently the concept of buffing is hard for some reason.

This time, I just hope that pumpkins scream in the dead of night.

I’m actually going to use pistol as a ranged weapon against single targets now. A little math.

With the 24% boost, the pistol has 203 direct DPS on auto. Trick Shot has 206 DPS. With only a 1.4% difference in direct damage, the bleed triggering exposed weakness makes it the superior choice.

Last time I made a list of suggestions for the Daredevil, Anet took 8 (well, 7.5, half of one) of them and put it in for the next BWE.

Maybe you guys aren’t doing it right. Less tears, more elbow grease is my recommendation.

Ohoni.6057:

Deceptive Evasion: This skill is really hard to pin down. It has no ICD and it is quite versatile and potent. This, however, doesn’t tell the full story. The shatters themselves have cooldowns (again, no doubling), and the clones have to survive to make use of their effect. Clone death is surprisingly common in all game types, and whatever attack you dodge will frequently murder the clone before it can do anything.

The ending conclusion is that the other dodge traits aren’t as good. The ability to spam the combo-finishing Bound and Impaling Lotus over and over and over again is unmatched. While it may not be as versatile as the above, it certainly is stronger.

Deceptive Evasion is fairly godly. It’s fantastic for generating clones and almost essential to Shatter builds. You can also buff up the durability of the clones. The DD dodge traits are ok, if we compare them purely as vanilla class dodge traits, but when you compare them to other Elite Spec core mechanics, they don’t come anywhere close, as they are barely above the dodge traits other classes get.

First, minor complaint, when you quote someone. Take designation for the particular post you quote. Don’t just write (//quote) for things. Otherwise, people don’t know where these phrases are coming from or who you are talking to. I.E. when I quote you here, I use (quote=5545031;Ohoni.6057:) at the start of the post.

As far as deceptive evasion goes: With all of this written on the cusp of a Prismatic Understanding Nerf, the overall potency of deceptive was up in question. Why? Well, a common tactic for mesmers was to spam their dodges before engaging or while in stealth, and then use those as an abrupt burst. I used to use this tactic awhile ago, and it would have mixed results due to losing a substantial portion of my defense.

The modern day tactic is to hide in stealth while spamming clones. Stealth itself being adequate for stalling while endurance regenerates. But, with the recent nerf, we’ll have to see if mesmers are still free to use their dodges only for clone spam. If not, then it will suffer the same problem I had with mesmer PVP for years: The attack you dodge kills the clone. With no clone death traits anymore, the value of deceptive evasion gets cut significantly.

Anyway, I would argue that daredevil dodges aren’t slightly better. They’re a lot better. Ignoring the synergy they have with other dodge traits (Driven Fortitude, Escapists Absolution, Uncatchable to name a few), each individual dodge has a lot going for it. If we assume a fairly standard DD build (DA, Trickery, DD), Brawler’s Tenacity with Channeled Vigor, Bountiful Theft with Sleight of Hand, you’ll have an endurance recovery of about 12.3 per second. Since other classes have 50% vigor uptime, their endurance regen is about 6.25 per second. This leaves the Daredevil with 97% more dodges than any other class, not factoring in any weapons or utilities, or the additional starting dodge.

Just by themselves, the dodges are pretty good. Bound is 54% of a backstab attached to a leap finisher (more D/P shenanigans, on top of other thing). Impaling Lotus is a wide AoE condi attack + cripple and 2 whirl finishers. Someone already explained the advantage of dash above. Now take these effects, and when you compare them to the dodges of other classes, multiply it by 2 and add 1 additional dodge. Adjust for ICDs on other classes, then factor in additional dodge synergy traits.

For reference, I’m going to be smacking enemies in PVE for 9k per bound, 4.5k per impaling lotus in a 600 radius. Bound has 62% higher DPS than the dagger auto attack, meaning that dodging will become part of the damage rotation of the PVE Daredevil.

It is precisely because of these reasons that I do not want our grandmasters to become some kind of additional mechanic. If we get the option to toggle between what dodge we want on the fly, it will come with a stringent internal cooldown that will butcher the aggression and utility of those skills by half an order of magnitude. Instead of getting these skills 3 consecutive times + 1 every 4 seconds (front loaded, so really it is closer to 6 consecutive times), we’ll get one of each every 15 seconds, 12 with the new grandmaster which will offer to reduce the cooldown. Or if they don’t get a cooldown, their effectiveness will be cut down to a third to put them in line with the other damage dealing dodge skills, making them mild nuisances rather than a potent tool at our disposal.

Well, the wiki isn’t updated yet.

Currently the axe does 238 damage every 0.95 seconds. With a 10% buff, this amounts to 262 per hit, or 267 DPS. At 2 × 7 vulnerability per hit, this comes to 14.7 stacks of vulnerability sustained.

Life Blast does 345 damage within 600 range, and hits every 1.4 seconds. This comes to about 246 DPS. With unyielding blast, this comes to 14.3 stacks of vulnerability sustained.

This is… interesting. Rending claws now does more damage than life blast at any range. Unyielding Blast pierces, but Rending Claws basically bypasses any defense that isn’t a straight up block.

If anything, I’d say that axe is actually a decent weapon now.

I actually might consider using shield instead of focus for something other than Triple Trouble now.

Pre-patch there were builds out there that would stack every buff imaginable on their pet to do massive damage. Someone made a video where they were one-shotting people with the drake in WvW.

It might not be the patch. Are you sure you weren’t fighting one of these builds?

babazhook.6805:

I really do not think the dodges being locked behind GM traits that big am issue nor do I think we need to count up the total number of traits so as to somehow “prove” a spec line inferior.

As long as the benefits of a dodge are GM trait + worthy it is fine.

Take the simplest example because it easiest to make a direct comparisons. Dont stop is a GM trait in the Acro line and for those that use it not a bad trait at all. it quite good really. It decreases the effects of crippled and chilled by 2/3rds and converts Immob to a chill on a 10 second cooldown.

The New dodge version Unhindered Combat removes Immob removes chiiled removes crippled, provides a long range dash with that evade we used to get from a plain dodge and grants swiftness. There no cooldown outside your supply of endurance.

This is vastly superior to Don’t Stop. Were we to remove all of the benefits but swiftness and the long range dash and then add a GM trait like upper hand to the GM slot we would be no farther ahead even though we can count and get as many traits as other classes.

The other two “dodge” types might need a bit more tinkering but if the all the benefits gleaned from one of these new dodges offers as much as unhindered combat does we are fine and especially if we can get a drop down toggle.

This.

The hardest part about changing the dodges is finding a good metric to measure them by. I considered making a comparison to the weapon dodges, but I’m not sure it is a meaningful one. The traits aren’t exclusive with the weapon skills and cost no initiative, so Impaling Lotus and Bound are essentially free damage.

Considering them as additional damage from nowhere, it is still hard to pin down how much of an effect they really have. The amount of dodges that the daredevil gets is highly build dependent. The number ranges from 4 per fight to 11+ per fight. Since bound is 53% as much damage as vault (with updates they have the same activation time), you can consider this 2 to 6 additional “vaults” per fight.

Comparing them to other dodge traits on other classes doesn’t help much, either. The daredevil traits blow all of the other ones out of the water, except for 3:

Evasive Arcana. This is the closest competitor, capable of doing many of the things that the DD dodges do. Its advantage is versatility. Its disadvantage is potency and range. The ICD stops any doubling of effects, and the Ele doesn’t have as many dodges to use. Also, there is no direct damage option to compare it to.

Mark of Evasion: 2 × 8 bleeds + regen is actually pretty good. It does more damage than Impaling Lotus on stationary targets. Disadvantages being potency and range. An 8 second ICD prevents quick doubling, and the Necro has the fewest dodges out of any class. Mark of Evasion also isn’t a finisher of any kind.

Deceptive Evasion: This skill is really hard to pin down. It has no ICD and it is quite versatile and potent. This, however, doesn’t tell the full story. The shatters themselves have cooldowns (again, no doubling), and the clones have to survive to make use of their effect. Clone death is surprisingly common in all game types, and whatever attack you dodge will frequently murder the clone before it can do anything.

The ending conclusion is that the other dodge traits aren’t as good. The ability to spam the combo-finishing Bound and Impaling Lotus over and over and over again is unmatched. While it may not be as versatile as the above, it certainly is stronger.

This is just looking at the single traits themselves. There is a lot of synergy in the class itself, given the copious amount of dodge traits it already has. So the question becomes this:

#1: Is the DD line actually deficient in any way? Sure there’s that complaint about “specialization mechanics”, but overall is the DD losing?

#2: If the DD is deficient, then how would you improve on the grandmasters, given that they are the best in their field?

In general, my issue with the druid is that it is a mono-tool. I’d take the amount of overall healing skills, cut them in half, double the non-exclusives healing, and then add more options.

As far as immediate feedback goes, Glyph of Empowerment is too weak. The overall contribution to direct DPS is 2.5%, which isn’t a lot. I would double the duration of the buff.

On the PVE side, there’s two builds. Or rather, one build with slight variation.

Gear: Full Berserker
Sword/Axe + Staff
Kitty / Kitty
Marskmanship: Clarion Bond, Steady Focus, Predator’s Onslaught
Beastmastery: Companion’s Might, Natural Healing, Zephy’rs Speed
Druid: Cultivated Synergy, Natural Stride, Lingering Light
Glyph of Rejuvenation, Quickening Zephyr, Frost Spirit, Signet of the Wild, Strength of the Pack

I considered using glyph of empowerment, but it just isn’t as strong as Frost Spirit. Anyway, this build is basically the PVE power build, except it trades the offensive bonuses of spotter and longbow with mild sustained and burst healing. I don’t imagine this build to be super useful, but it will definitely be good at carrying pugs.

The alternate version uses Greatsword instead of sword/axe, along with remoreseless and two-handed training.

Harper.4173:

Category B as I see it will still be in trouble – by the simple fact that they’re not meta now means that they’re not so heavily invested into the concept of meta. Even if the new meta includes healers and tanks there’s a high chance they won’t be playing the meta version of healer and tank given the overall trend they’ve set by not changing to a meta build even when meta is so much more effective than healer and tank in the current state of the game.

The problem for me I guess is that I see most non-meta players are category H – since I don’t see any good reasons for not wanting to play meta in this or any other state of the game. Perhaps I’m wrong.

With raids being very difficult I find it hard to believe a lot of the categories you mention will have a good time at raids – I feel it’ll be mostly dungeon/FOTM veterans who’ll have a good time at it – with most non-hardcore players trying it out – failing – and generally leaving it alone or crying on the forums. Some will adapt to meta tactics – most will not and demand a content nerf.

The theory of including more people – I can see what you’re saying but let’s not forget the content is harder so while roles mean more people overall could find a place in the new content the increased difficulty coupled with stricter requirements (maybe 2-3 sets , maybe full ascended, maybe specific and expensive foods) might make it that less players actually get to be part of this new content.

The categories are quite soft. I haven’t done a full statistical analysis or anything, so the scales and categories can swing wildly.

The difficulty of the raids might be an issue. Though it might be temporary. I’ve been on MMOs that have raids before, and much like pretty much everything in an MMO, it is a puzzle. True PVE difficulty is quite rare, IMO. Most things in videogames are elaborately disguised puzzles. The hard part is figuring out how to do it. But once that puzzle has been solved, doing it again isn’t nearly as tough.

The first weeks will be brutal, and shattered keyboards will litter the streets. Over time, the code will be cracked, and the entire raid can be summarized as “move here, dodge once forward, strafe counter-clockwase, jump twice, watch tell, interrupt, DPS phase, retreat and repeat”. Well, a lot more elaborate than that, but basically a series of dance steps. The rumors of enforced roles will be encouraging. The difficulty discouraging, but it gets easier over time.

Harper.4173:

For a player to be meta in the “meta zerk dungeon” state of the game all you really needed was exotic berserker – and your rune set and sigils and you were good to go.
The new HoT Raid meta may require a much higher individual investment to become meta or even viable.

Definitely. Masteries are already nearly a requirement.

Harper.4173:

I actually feel this is the case – I feel that the vast majority of players that are with GW2 now are not a trinity-loving or wanting lot – because they’ve stayed with a no-trinity “meta zerk” game for 3 years now.
3 years is a long time and I think most trinity, tank and healer lovers have given up and moved on by now. Sure there are stragglers and hybrids and whatnot – but I feel that for the majority of the player base adding in hard roles and a trinity now is going to be a bad move.

We’ll have to see how it’s implemented and how “required” and forced the roles are.
We’ll have to see if the new FTP players get a chance to grow and adapt or if their
hopes and dreams are squished by a new “Zerk meta” before they can grow into a loud enough trinity-loving voice.
Let’s not forget Raids are very end-game – before they get a chance to do raid content with roles they’ll be hit by the zerker meta in every dungeon and most other forms of instanced content – I speculate trinity and hard role lovers won’t stick with the game long enough to get to the actual trinity/role raids because of their initial contact with “meta zerk” at the beginning of the game – which as far as I’m concerned isn’t bad.

It is quite the gamble Anet is taking here. I suppose they’re assuming that older content will just be dubbed “legacy” content and be largely abandoned like some other MMOs do. Then when experienced dungeon runners become more scarce, there won’t be as much pressure to conform to that particular meta. Maybe the fact that they’re “old” will mean that players won’t consider the zerkmeta as having much weight, and thus will focus more on what the “harder” stuff needs.

That or Anet didn’t think it through and are being all “idealized” over this.

Shalien.9018:

You’re arguing with me as if I was the entire Thief community.

I never made personal attacks. I never said to stop playing Thief. I never posted in the funeral thread. I’ve never said that Thieves wont survive in raids. If you’re going to argue with me, argue with things I’ve said instead of things that you think I may have said.

Tiz the nature of the beast. If I list a bunch of problems the community has, then you come debating it while having those exact same problems, then one leads to another.

Shalien.9018:

In contrast to what you’re saying, I’ve actually been quite optimistic… to quote myself from this very thread:

Also to quote you from this very thread:

Shalien.9018:

Well at least we know our entire elite spec won’t be adequate for survival either.

Shalien.9018:

Tabootrinket.2631:

nopoet.2960:

New mechanics:
Guardian – Virtues that project physically in the world
Revenant – Channel a dragon! also a pbaoe that makes boons last longer
Warrior – Fire empowered berserk burst skills
Engineer – Mechanically assisted range finisher and reviver
Ranger – God like healing
Elementalist – Fire tornados, water bubble, lightning striking , earth quake riding madness
Mesmer – Time travel
Necromancer – Improved demonic state

Thief – dodges …..

rectification : Thief – dodge ….

Without the “s”. Because apparently our endurance still recharges at the same speed as other endurance bars.

+1

end quotes.

Shalien.9018:

I understand that you feel like that people are incorrect about Dardevil.

The people who are saying that daredevil needs to improve are basing it on theory-crafted min-maxing and number crunching. Not on how they feel about the elite spec. It’s quite clear you don’t understand where the issues are and that’s fine, but you should try not to be mean to people just because you don’t understand what they’re suggesting or why they’re upset.

No, what I’m seeing is people being jealous of everything that other specs get. The very first post in this thread is exactly that. See, I also see people on occasion make a good suggestion, but I have to trudge through tears to get to it.

Shalien.9018:

If you have the math to back up your beliefs, post them as a peer and let it be reviewed by the community. Educate people instead of trying to belittle everyone.

Ask and ye shall receive. I cataloged a lot of the numbers from BWE2. You’ll have to note that many of these numbers will be out of date, since most of these skills have been changed, and many of them to my exact numbers. I’ve already written out about the dodging potential of the class. You’ll have to be specific about which “belief” you want me to prove, though.

Shalien.9018:

I’m going to reiterate one more time for you, if you still don’t get it I’m sorry I can’t communicate it in a way you understand. The concerns for Daredevil are the base principles behind the elite specialization’s layout and how Daredevil is designed in a manner that doesn’t match the design standard of all other elite specializations. Thereby making it suffer from power-creep being introduced by HoT.

This is pathetic. You don’t get it. I understand what you are saying. What you are saying, however, is ill-informed. So I’ll explain it to you, again: The community is wrong to think like that. The daredevil is a powerful specialization because the combination of skills, utilities, weapon, and mechanics make it as good or better than the other specializations. The “design standard” is meaningless in light of this. It is a contrived point that ignores what actually matters.

Shalien.9018:

All they need to do to balance Daredevil against the design standard is roll the dodges into the elite spec mechanic so that it matches every other elite spec’s design. Then we’d have:

• New/robust profession mechanic
• New weapon
• New 6-10 skill category
• 3 new minor traits
• 9 new major traits

See, here is the thing. If you were to roll the all into the profession mechanic, then be prepared to take a massive hit on every other category. The ability to access 2 finishers, damage on dodge, large AoE condition + cripple on dodge, and cleanse + escape on dodge as needed is incredibly powerful. More powerful than what any other class gets, even Chronomancer. And on top of this powerful ability, we would have to get 3 new grandmaster level traits that will bolster things even more. Considering how solid everything else is, to reign in the Daredevil the devs would be forced to make draconian cuts. For example, having a 30 second cooldown on each individual dodge skill, doubling the recharge time of all physical skills, removing the additional endurance bar, removing conditions from the staff, 15 second internal cooldowns on escapists absolution and impacting disruption, etc. and so on.

The daredevil was built and balanced around the assumption of an additional dodge bar and those dodges. That’s why everything else is so potent. To make the dodges a hereto ambiguous “mechanic” would mean having to take away so much for the sake of balance, and then hitting the DD again because of what new grandmasters would require.

If you really think the grandmasters are insufficient, then make suggestions on how to improve them or other aspects for which the daredevil or the thief is insufficient. Don’t just say “give us everything, and then new grandmasters”, and leave it to the devs. They’d neuter us faster than we could blink, and rightfully so given how overpowered we would become.

Shalien.9018:

I mean… you think Thieves are in the top 3 professions right now. For casual gameplay sure, Thieves are fun. The elite spec seems neat-o! We’re mostly concerned with competitive balance and power-creep.

4th overall, actually, but don’t pretend you’re concerned with competitive balance. You just omitted everything again. That is envy, first and foremost. You’re just putting it into pretty words.

I think I’m going to be a particularly difficult individual, and just cut this next post up into little bits. Personally I find it hard not to, given its content and the lack of reference points.

Canakun.8031:

You are a particularly difficult individual, I’ll give you that much.

First of all, no.
You’re wrong.

It should be self evident that, given the existence of a discussion, that one party is assuming the other party is wrong. It’s kind of a given.

Canakun.8031:

The metagame in any MMO is the most mathematically optimal way of clearing content that develops after many hours, of many days of many weeks of many months of testing and developing builds until there is no further way to optimize your play.
That is literally all that it is.

The hilarious thing is how wrong this all is. Traditionally the metagame is a reference to using outside factors to influence how a game is played. In particular this is done in reference to how other people will be playing the game. This is important in the PVP side of things, since a player will make their build choices trying to counter a build the other player is using. Thus it is called “meta” or “abstract”. In PVP, the metagame is a thing. But in PVE, you don’t do this. The most appropriate term is optimum, not meta. But nonetheless everyone throws that term around, so we use it.

I will say one thing: given the intangible nature of the “meta”, the name might be appropriate. If we are to assume that meta is slowly built upon, this comes with the implicit assumption that the meta is always wrong, even in its own goals. It will be either improved upon eventually, or the nature of the game will change and thus it is no longer applicable.

Then we have the application of the meta. The mathematical extrapolations are only as good as their practical use in the real world. The theory is only as valuable as how well it explains reality. All the numbers on all the spreadsheets in the world don’t mean a thing if it doesn’t work. Thus, we have the appropriateness issue: given the skill level and experiences of the average player, what is mathematically the best is not always practically the best. For this individual, the "meta’ objectively does not produce the best results. Thus, there needs to be a necessary distinction: a theoretical optimum, and a practical optimum.

This is important, because the practical optimum is what Anet has to balance around. Things have to be hard but attainable for the average customer, not the top 5%. Otherwise people go away and take their cash elsewhere.

That’s what the term means. You can’t place a new meaning onto this term, base your assumptions and accusations around that meaning and expect it to be taken seriously.

Wrong again, my not-so-good man. Or… I don’t know your sex. Nevermind. Anyway, what I am doing here is not inventing. I am investigating. Analyzing. Discovering how the word is used. Diagnosing inconsistencies and impracticality. Language is dynamic, and glorious imprecise, my good not-so-good woman. English is an art as much as it is a science.

Canakun.8031:

Sorry.

See, you say this, but I don’t believe you mean it.

Canakun.8031:

That’s not how words work.
It’s not something made up – it’s an optimized form of play that has been mathematically proven to be the best (read: fastest, most efficient) way of repeatedly clearing content.

Let me pose to you a theoretical situation. Suppose someone cracked the code and created a new, mathematically best way to play the game. No one could find any errors in this code. Suppose also that no player was able to actually replicate this performance in the game. Whether it be by the structure of the content, the player skill, or completely unknown reasons, not a single person was able to reproduce this predicted result. Would then, that theory be meta? Even if no one can or ever will do it, and other things do better in practice?

When I say “invented” I don’t mean in a Godzilla-and-Barbie-have-tea-with-the-Queen kind of way. The meta is based around, in large part, fact. However, by its very dynamic nature it is necessarily fiction. The meta for fractals isn’t necessarily the same as the meta for dungeons, and each dungeon can have its own meta. Even in its roots, it is a flawed assumption that the mathematically optimum way to play is the “best”. I.E. people might be looking to have fun first and foremost, and not find the number crunched way to be fun. But that’s another topic for another day, my not-so-good eukaryote.

When I say a few, I’m referring to theorycrafters. Particularly PVE focused dungeon/fractal theorycrafters. When you compare the proportion of these that contributed to the meta to the people who didn’t, you’ll find it is quite the relatively tiny group.

Canakun.8031:

Secondly, while you’re absolutely correct in what you said, which is essentially that player skill contributes to performance just as much as statistical optimization, you fail to realize how irrelevant that is.
The meta is the mathematical optimization. The meta gets played out through user performance, and they intersect. That was my point in the opening paragraph. That players who cannot master the user performance necessary to make the most use out of the mathematically optimal statistics, tend to drift away from them.

This just isn’t true. First, the meta is practical use. Math just plays a portion. Second, players who cannot master the tactics don’t drift away. They just keep playing. No one “masters” it. I see rants all the time about players playing with other players who think they’re doing meta stuff, but aren’t. Heck, I still see heavy only LFGs. I’ve seen the words Dunning-Kruger uttered in this game more times than I can count.

The thing with “mastery” is that it is ambiguous. You can’t measure it. You can’t quantify it. The idea that a player who follows the meta in the weakest sense will one day get up and proclaim themselves incompetent and stop trying is absurd. Preference in play is independent of competence in play. This should be self evident.

Canakun.8031:

Thirdly, whether the meta should be considered the default form of play or not is entirely irrelevant and just an attempt for you to, yet again, characterize me as an elitist. It’s boring.

The problem is that this wasn’t a debate. You consider (or at least considered. You might not now that you are observing yourself) the meta as the default, and other people deviants. It ends there. When talking about the topic of this thread it is irrelevant, but when denying your elitism and the oppressive nature of the meta, which are tangentially related topics, then it is important.

Dude… or dudette. Dudine? Whatever. This would be a whole lot easier if you would just admit your elitism, then apologize and change your ways. The discussion on the nature of the new meta is not dependent on you being an elitist. It just so happened that you are a closet one.

Canakun.8031:

Because the meta is the most efficient way to clear content – and this isn’t just GW2, but all MMORPG’s, ever – it is generally understood to be the standard form of play, as most players will generally aim to find the most efficient way to do the content they want to do. There is nothing wrong with detracting from that if someone wants to, nor is there anything wrong with acknowledging the existence of detractors.

This isn’t right either. The aim of most players is to have fun. This is a videogame. It is leisure time. There’s only a couple of different people who aim for optimum compositions. A) The person who enjoys the mental puzzle of optimizing. The person who wants to feel superior. C)The person who feels inadequate under the assumption that the optimum is demanded from them. See, this is why I keep calling you an elitist: your ideas are so backwards in how they follow through, that the only explanations are that you are thoroughly brainwashed or you’re the washer. And how you got to be a 1337357 isn’t my concern here.

Canakun.8031:

Next point.
It is entirely your issue if you see faster as meaning better. Personally, for me, I DO find faster to be better, but that’s my subjective experience and as I’ve mentioned previously I understand there are people who don’t want to rush through their content. There’s nothing even remotely close to a superiority complex going on here.
I’m really concerned about the types of human reactions you’ve had to have such negative reaction to literally everything somebody says to you.

You’ve missed the point. You didn’t characterized non-adherents as just people. You denoted them as envious of how fast you are. A quality that you are admitting right now that you consider superior. You are constantly denying the validity of their complaints in the most dismissive ways.

The meta can still be better. Even if it has problems, then what is to say that the game won’t be improved upon even further later? Until it eventually reaches the Meta-Meta? The best way to be the best way?

Canakun.8031:

You mention that the meta provides a societal pressure. That’s true, and that will always exist because the majority of players, and this is factual accuracy not what you will inevitably label my “superiority complex”, wish to play their game in the most time efficient way.

Myopia is a curse. The majority of players left the area for which there is a “meta”. Dungeons and Fractals are abandoned compared to other content. The only reason why it seems like everyone to you is because that’s who you hang out with.

Canakun.8031:

The ironic thing, though, is that the current state of Guild Wars 2 actually very comfortably allows players do play whatever they Gods kitten ed wish to play. It’s as simple as putting “PHIW” into the party finder.
Very bizarre that people still find this difficult.

Except it doesn’t work. You put casual run, relaxed run, all welcome into the LFG and you still get metazerks who will come in and ruin your party, or you get no one at all. It doesn’t matter how theoretically relaxed it is if elitists will still come in and ruin everything. The roles have to be properly enforced, or else you end up with no role diversity.

Canakun.8031:

You remind me of a quote I read earlier:
I’ve never met someone who didn’t justify their prejudices in experience. That’s why bigotry is so pervasive: no bigot thinks they’re a bigot. They just think they’re “right”.

It applies to you pretty well.

Prejudice requires having a set of beliefs applied before knowing someone. My issues with you come from what you have provided me. Continually.

Canakun.8031:

I’m gonna finalise this discussion with this final point.

Yay I get last word.

Canakun.8031:

When the new meta develops, I’m going to adapt to it. I’m going to play it, whether that means playing full zerk like I have been, or changing to clerics, or sentinels, or whatever the meta requires because that’s how I want to play. Efficiency is an important part of the way I play my games, and that’s all there is to it.

So you’re a PHIW?

Canakun.8031:

And here’s the kicker – I know you’re gonna love this – there will still be people who refuse to play the meta.
The fun part is, this new content is going to be harder, more challenging, and a lot stricter.

So you’re going to take joy in other people’s malcontent, and are proud of how exclusive raids will be.

You just don’t get it: The zerker meta has an intrinsic problem to it, in that it doesn’t enforce traditional roles. Look, I’m not a fan of requiring tanks and healers myself. I like the self-sufficient action style combat. But I can’t deny that the role homogeneity GW2 has is a problem. I see it everywhere, all around the gaming world. “I don’t feel a sense of cooperation while playing GW2”, “GW2 feels homogenized and stale”, “I don’t the impact of my skills on other players”, “GW2 has a selfish combat system”, “GW2 feels like a single player game next to 5 people”, “Don’t try having no trinity, because GW2 tried that and look what happened”. I don’t even know what people mean when they say “look what happened” and yet the room nods in agreement.

There’s a point where stupidity becomes a sin. Repent and ye shall be saved.

Canakun.8031:

Call me elitist all you want, it means absolutely nothing to me, but I think I’m going to enjoy playing the game a lot more than you.

Well, my not-so-good elitist, if you didn’t care then you wouldn’t have kept bringing it up. Who exactly do you think I am, anyway? Oh wait, final word. My bad. I’ll answer it for you: Queen of England, having tea with Godzilla and Barbie.

Harper.4173:

The problem is a combination of what you described under A B and C – the problem is that non-meta players have asked for a change in order for them to better fit in the game and be taken along in parties and Anet has delivered a “solution” that will most likely have the opposite effect.

Non-meta players are non-meta for a reason – there’s enough reason to believe that if a player was part of the non-meta group at the height of the “zerker meta” that player will continue to be non-meta after the “post-raid HOT-meta” emerges.
So in a sense what Anet has done is replaced one meta with another one -but has not fixed the core issue : people’s complaints for lack of inclusion.

From what I’ve seen PHIW players overlap very heavily with non-meta players. I truly believe a meta-abiding player that also wanted to play a tank or healer is a rarity.

Yes – we might have enforced tanks and healers with HoT and thus we’ll need to take some tank and healer loving people along but if those people don’t abide by the meta and run “meta tank builds” and “meta healer builds” then those people will be excluded just as before.

The core aspect I believe is that the “exclusion” people complain about does not stem from roles or lack of roles but from mindset and goals – meta players exclude non-meta players.
That won’t change with HoT and it won’t change if the meta changes. As long as “PHIW” players continue to “play how they want” and refuse to adhere to a standardized optimal way of doing things there’s no reason for meta players to take them along.

This whole thing reminds me of that onion article that claimed all forms of parenting raised up miserable adults.

Players are a bit more complicated than being non-meta or not. I assume when you say “non-meta” here, you are referring to playing as groups with class composition and roles. Because when I divide players into more categories, I get different stories:

A)Players who play zerk now but would prefer healing/tank roles. These are probably rare, but also still exist. I’ll touch a bit on that later. But these people will be meta-staying meta.
B)Players who play healing/tank roles no matter what anyone says. These people will be happier because now they won’t get as much discrimination from the community. With the perceptions shifting, they will become non-meta becoming sort-of meta, depending on what kind of healing/tanking needs to be done.
C)Players who don’t play dungeons/fractals because there aren’t any healing/tank roles. These players might become interesting again if their desired playstyle is encouraged, but they also might be discouraged from past experiences. For raids, these could be considered prospective players from nowhere becoming meta.
D)Players who only play in their own guild who reinforces their desire to use healing/tank roles. These probably fit the non-meta archetype you’re talking about, since they aren’t likely to be paying attention to the meta in the first place. However, it is possible that with their roles desired, they would become more open to extra-guild activities. It is also possible that they’ll just stay in their guild.
E)Players who don’t know what is going on, and just happen to play healing/tank roles. These guys probably won’t be meta in the sense that it is unlikely that one will happenstance into the kind of builds and tactics that would be desired. But, this group tends to shrink and diverge off into one of the other categories.
F)Players who don’t play, period, because they think the combat is homogenized without tank/healing roles. These non-players might come back to the game if they hear things have changed, and thus can easily become meta. If they come back at all.
G)Players who play their own idealized version of their class, which may include healing/tank roles. These players aren’t likely to do anything for anyone, so the chances of each one individually becoming meta is unlikely.
H)Players who refuse to play meta out of principle. This group depends on the principle. Some hate the zerk meta, and other hate the idea of a meta in general, and others hate going with the flow. The first can become meta since they will leave this category, the second two not so much.

The inclusiveness problem will still exist. But it is theoretically possible to include more people than we are now.

Touch note: it might be all too late. You’ve touched on this a bit, too. An unfortunate fact is that a lot of the people who would’ve liked to have a tank/heal/DPS meta are gone. They left precisely because there was no holy trinity here. Thus, while their complaints echo throughout the internet, they aren’t coming back. The dominating nature of the current meta is caused in part by everyone who disagrees with the meta leaving the dungeon scene.

The introduction of F2P and HoT is the motivating factor. With an influx of new and returning players, Anet gets a chance to re-sell their combat system. To appeal to the classic MMO player who wants their tanks and their healers. If it brings in more money, what zerk meta players think won’t matter. The dollar is louder than the voice.

Harper.4173:

What’s wrong about grouping people? The line for me is simple : people who play like me and in a standardized way and everybody else.
Of course people that don’t play like me matter less (or at all) since I rely on them as effective teammates.

Historically the us vs. them mindset has not been the best one. You’ve got to include diversity in your opponents, or else you rob them of empathy.

Harper.4173:

Because it has been proven – and because at some point you’ll have to take some things “for granted” – have you personally bothered to check every fact you’ve been told and use on a day-to-day basis?

The interesting thing about “proof” is that it isn’t a consensus. Anyway, the grounds at which things have been proven and their appropriateness for each individual are all up for debate. While there is a theoretical best performance overall, one size doesn’t always fit all. The meta changes, too, and new records are set regularly. If the dynamic and selective nature of the meta was expounded on more, I’m certain it would be far less oppressive when players take it for granted.

Harper.4173:

Because this makes no sense – if you’re PHIW you can’t be meta – because if you’re playing *any other build then you are not playing a meta build.
And if you want to play meta builds then why weren’t you playing a meta build way before HoT?

Technicality: Zerk Meta players can be considered “PHIW”, if they do indeed want to play that way. Other players want their desired style of play to also be meta. I go into this more above, but it is very possible from a multitude of angles that a non-meta player will run meta builds, so long as that build’s role is to tank or heal. Also there are different degrees of how exclusionary things are, which is why we have terms like metazerk, metabuilds, metatactics, and metacomps. I imagine the actual number of people who only run ele/ele/war/mes/whatever the last class is parties, all using specific builds is quite rare. I see more demands for all heavies than that.

I’m not sure Acro was gutted just for daredevil. Evades across the board were cut to a quarter of what they once were (perma 100% vigor to 50% uptime 50% vigor), and the nerfs to acro falls exactly on that line.. 4 seconds per dodge amounts to roughly a 50% uptime of vigor. With the enhanced vigor trait this is slightly better, but this is essentially the gimmick of the acro line. Same thing with trickery: 10 seconds of vigor on steal, 20 second steal recharge, amounts to a 50% vigor uptime.

That said, I do have some ideas for acrobatics:

#1: Drop expeditious dodger completely. Feline Grace becomes the new adept minor
#2: Endless Stamina becomes master minor. Don’t Stop becomes grandmaster minor
#3: Change Fleet of Shadow to: Granting Stealth to you or your allies also grants swiftness. 10 second swiftness duration, 15 second ICD.
#4: Pain Response now affects confusion and torment.
#5: Vigorous Recovery: This now also cleanses one condition in an AoE.
#6: Double the base heal and scale healing of assassin’s reward, and make its heal an AoE with 360 range. Max 5 targets.
#7: Merge Swindler’s Equilibrium and Upper Hand, so now evades while wielding a sword both recharge steal and regain initiative, 1 second ICD. Add 5% damage bonus, and keep at the master tier.
#8: Move Hard To Catch to the Grandmaster Tier
#9: Changed Guarded Initiation to the following: Activate Assassin’s Signet when attacking a foe above a certain health threshold (90%). 45 second cooldown, and receives benefits from signet related traits.
#10: New Grandmaster Trait: Richochet. You all know what it does.

This leaves an open “hole” in the master tier for a new trait. To this day, I’m still not sure what to put in there. You have several good ideas though, so maybe something with stability or resistance.

My biggest contention is that a lot of these complaints are either paranoia, or just not true. I’m not sure thieves are in a bad spot at all, and if they are then other classes are in far worse spots.

I talk mostly from a PVE/WvW perspective, but looking at all of the elite specializations I’d rank Daredevil in the top 3. The Daredevil is one of two specializations where I’ll be glad to use everything: weapons, traits, and utilities. The only other one that holds that title is the Chronomancer, the undisputed king of the elite specializations. Everyone else? My personal rankings:

Tempest: Traits have no synergy and are feeble, the weapon doesn’t provide the necessities for ele, and the shouts are just inferior to cantrips/arcane. Class mechanic is cumbersome. I’m not sure I’ll even play tempest.
Dragonhunter: Longbow is meh. Traps feel gimmicky and aren’t as versatile as I’d like them to be, as do the traits. New virtues don’t go well with all the old virtue traits. Not sure I’ll even play Dragonhunter.
Druid: Its a glorified heal bot. The traits are uninteresting, the staff basically does one thing. The glyphs seem alright, though. Class mechanic is basically if water attunement/ventari had a life force bar. Not sure I"ll even play Druid.
Berserker: The weapon seems gimmicky. Utilities and traits are good, though. I don’t much like warrior, so I won’t be playing this.
Scrapper: Gyros look flawed and ineffective. Traits are a mixed bag, as usual. The hammer looks great, though. The class mechanic is strange and I’m not sure how good it’ll be.
Herald: Basically a buff bot. But hey, its better than a heal bot. Shield is situational, utilities are fine, and only two traits caught my eye.
Reaper: The weapon is sexy. The traits are frightening. The shouts… so-so. I love the new shroud, but wish I had a viable ranged option.
Daredevil: I like everything, and want to use everything in multiple combinations. I hate that it is basically what acro should’ve been, but at least we’re getting what acro should’ve been.
Chronomancer: The world will never forget the day the chronomancer sets foot upon Tyria. Particularly because that day happened twice, but at double the speed.

As far as dev attention goes… that’s how nearly every forum feels. It is easier to name the exception: Revenant. I’m not sure the thief forum is actually deprived, with the most recent red post being from 3 days ago, giving us an update on dash. Were I to personally rank them, the ranger gets the least amount of attention, due to the large number of things that were absolutely broken (I.E. pet condition damage) rather than being broken by opinion.

As far as PVP standings go, I think this is a case of envy. Each class has things they can do better than others, and many classes are envious that thief even has a place. The PVP meta is currently out of balance, though, with D/D ele being so prevalent that it is hard to get a look at anyone else. The state of the PVP game is so in flux that the role of thieves might change after tuesday. I’m not the most up to date on PVP, though.

I already wrote at length about the dodging issue. Without any word of special hit-through-dodge mechanics, I am very certain that the DD will be capable of evading well enough to survive. The amount of dodging available to each class varies wildly, so while something like Necromancer definitely can’t dodge it all, the Daredevil can recover 2.8 times as much endurance through traits alone and gets a weapon dodge every 4 seconds. Unless the content was designed specifically to be polarized against the Daredevil, then the raids aren’t countering all those dodges.

Thieves aren’t as glassy as we’re made out to be. On the statistical side we’re the second to least durable class (next to the elementalist), but our defenses aren’t in our statistics. Our defenses come from our ability to debuff and disable, our personal healing, and our high movement speed. The glassiness might be a meta enforced problem: the thief’s current roles are done best in GC gear, so from the perspective of build specs we’re not as durable as Celestials.

Thieves have received a lot of nerfs in the past. I know why, too. There was old saying: You can’t beat a perfect thief. The thief’s original design left it with so many tools that were powerful, instant-cast, and compounded with each other so well that it was overpowered. When something like Infiltrator’s Strike is instant cast… there’s not much anyone can do other than hope you make a mistake. This leaves devs with a dilemma. You can’t have a class that can beat all others regardless of circumstance just by being more skilled. A class has to have non-trivial weaknesses and openings. So the devs have to make piecemeal nerfs to ensure that thieves are evasive but not too evasive, invisible but not too hard to see, stunning but not too disabling, fast but not uncatchable. With nerfs, you need to look at the overall picture: the amount of nerfs a class receives isn’t a problem so long as their overall standing is still good. Thieves started out far ahead. The fact that thieves are still usable, even after a series incremental nerfs, speaks volumes about how good they were in the past.

Now you’re probably all wondering what I consider legitimate complaints. You’re not? Well too bad, I’m telling you anyway.

#1: Acrobatics is still the worst line in the game. Though I don’t think Acro was butchered just to make Daredevil, it certainly does feel that way. The thing is, old acro gave Feline Grace and near perma old vigor, amounting to a 185% increase in natural dodging. The new acro just gives a 33% increase to natural dodging. It simply needs to do more. Also all the other traits are horrendous.
#2: Weapon Viability. Currently, nearly all thieves use D/P + SB in PVP. We need sword, off-hand dagger, and main-hand pistol to be more viable. This is compounded by other things on this list, such as the acro line being horrible (sword) and ricochet being missing. This will also alleviate other problems, such as condi pressure.
#3: Ricochet. ‘Nuff said.
#4: I think a 4 second reveal is too much. Remember, this was a decision made a long time ago, back when thieves had nearly everything and no class had counters. Nowadays, I don’t think this is necessary anymore.
#5: The Impact Strike chain isn’t that good.

This isn’t all, but these are the big 5 that I’m looking at right now. Acrobatics should be dealt with first, because it will have a ripple effect that will change everything else.

Canakun.8031:

This seems like projection. I was talking about people who detract from the strictness of the meta do so because they want to play how they want. It was necessary to label the group in order to make a point involving the group.

This thinking is backwards. The meta isn’t the norm. It is imposed by an outside force. A person doesn’t detract from the meta. They have to willingly adhere to it.

Canakun.8031:

Err, no. ‘The meta’ in this instance is the most optimal way to do things. It isn’t ‘created’ by a few people, it’s eventually worked towards and found out by many people, over a long period of time.

History lesson: while the meta was being worked out, there was a contradiction of evidence that had to be worked around, which is why the theoretical best meta wasn’t working the best. You may remember this as the “heavies” issue. Basically, 4 warriors 1 mesmer or 5 warriors were outpreforming any theoretically optimal composition. The hypotheses for this were many, and all were true to some degree:

1)People had more practice on warriors from CoH1 farming.
2)Warrior’s inherent bulk allowed a large amount of leeway for mistakes.
3)The playstyle for the warrior was simple to pick up.
4)The ability to constantly rez allies made wipes much rarer.

Basically, the theoretical best composition only worked assuming perfect play. In real circumstances, the factors that people weren’t considering (bulk, ease of use, newb friendliness, allowances for mistakes) were overpowering the mathematical advantages that theoretical comps had.

This is still true today. The theoretical best performance doesn’t always match the actual best performance, both on a personal level and a global level. Not all factors are accounted for. The meta as you know it is an elaborate work of fiction that people have chosen to believe is true.

Canakun.8031:

And nobody has forced you to do anything – and I’d love for you to stop using the term oppressive. Your victim complex is your business, but please respect that this is an inappropriate use of the word.

You have already demonstrated that the meta is so ingrained in your head that you see it as the default orientation of all players. Given the unwavering devotion, along with the readiness at which “detractors” are categorized and treated with hostility, along with the subtle non-intellectual prevalence over the population as a whole, then I’d have to say that oppressive is the perfect word.

Canakun.8031:

PHIW mightn’t be against the existence of ‘a meta,’ but the PHIW crowd in this game have refused to acknowledge the freedom they’ve had for the past three years to play the game however they darn well want to and instead just complain about people who clear content faster than them.
Even with a ‘new meta,’ there will be people who want to play how they want, and how they want may not necessarily fit in the meta, and they may be removed from a meta group, and they may moan about it on the forums, again.

“To clear content faster than them?”? First, superiority complex. The fact that players want to play as tanks and healers is self-evident. It is not dependent on them being contrarian, inferior, or envious. Second, for the sake of reward balancing it is a legitimate concern. Third, it is freedom only in the sense that there is no physical limitation that prevents a player from doing it. The societal pressure of the meta is much more severe than you’d think. There have been many threads on the forums of players sharing their experiences where their casual parties get ruined by other players who wanted to metazerk.

The problem with the zerker meta is more complicated than you think. The zerker meta has an inherent (and relatively unique) problem in that common roles aren’t enforced. If that is changed and tank/healer are enforced, then everything else just becomes class balance issues.

Canakun.8031:

You’ve developed this idea of me and my opinions in your head and you will stop at nothing to prove that I’m that way.

The biggest problem is, you’ve done nothing but reaffirm this assumption. You’ve demonstrated that the meta is so ingrained in your head that you think it the default. You’ve demonstrated both your superiority complex and how readily you’ll categorize demonize players who disagree with you. You already went out of your way to announce that you are winning the argument, which itself is just barbaric posturing translated into language. You’ve already started this thread with the bad caricature aimed at anyone who criticizes the zerker meta. So, what evidence is there to the contrary?

I already quoted the appropriate definition of grasp in parenthesis. You’re also using the ambiguity of “some” to change the meaning. If you wanted to express the variability of reasons, you would’ve pluralized reasons. In a singular reason, “some” expresses degree or scale, not an unknown proportion of non-implied variability. BTW, “difficulty grasping or understanding” means “mentally incapable”.

Canakun.8031:

I certainly could do with better writing skills, and you can consider me an elitist all you want.
I like to think of myself as more of a realist, though.

I feel the necessity to quote myself on this: I’ve never met someone who didn’t justify their prejudices in experience. That’s why bigotry is so pervasive: no bigot thinks they’re a bigot. They just think they’re “right”.

Shalien.9018:

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

You just did it. You just told me that no body cared about the sum, and instead everyone is focusing on the “Mechanic”. You dumped two paragraphs and a list about that one, single fact while completely ignoring the quality and synergy of everything. You are either so irrational that you haven’t put two and two together, or you are so shameless that you are lying right to my face.

The third option is that you don’t understand what we’re saying.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

This forum is filled non-constructive tantrums that are bellowing so loud that they’re silencing any constructive thoughts. Its so bad that when someone made a thread in the PVP forum over the topic of thieves he was bashed down again and again over how wrong they were. It is crap like this that makes it hard for the devs to get constructive feedback. And like an impetuous child, this forum needs to be brought to its senses.

I only see one person here making personal attacks and not providing any feedback.

There are dozens of positive/constructive ideas that have been born on this subforum since BWE2. People have joined together to give great feedback to the devs including balanced functional skills, animation shortcuts to save time in development, UI examples of how things can be laid out. These forums have been overwhelmingly productive. The negativity comes from the fact that there is no dev response on the outstanding issues.

You need to dust yourself off man, you’re covered in salt.

Its too late. You’ve already done it. Its not even the first time you’ve done it. You’re trying to turn this around, but it isn’t going to work. If you had done so much as a cursory investigation you’d have known that the devs had already taken many of my suggestions and put them in, sometimes at exact value.

No dev is responding because no dev wants to respond to this. When the forum was constructive in the past, a dev responded in the past. Hell, the last response we got was 3 days ago in the daredevil BWE3 thread. But what is a dev supposed to say when the entire forum is eulogizing their thieves, telling other players to reroll, throwing fits of jealousy over things other professions are getting, and proclaiming falsehoods like thieves only have dodges or thieves won’t survive raids?

Everyone is salty because everyone is wading through your tears.

I hope the 175 point requirement is wrong myself. Mostly because this introduces a new problem:

The elite specs we’re getting aren’t going to be the only elite specs ever. As we get new elite specs, we’ll have to continue to get hero points to unlock them. Now I’ve already read a handful of things, but last I checked hero points are finite. My 100% world exploration toon has 190+ hero points left over, which is only enough for a single elite specialization.

Unless new content is going to introduce ways to farm hero points, you’ll be spending 800 gems and a new gear set for each specialization.

Canakun.8031:

Mate, you’re the only one struggling to prove your opinion is the legitimate one.
What I’m saying is the new meta is stricter than the previous meta, which comfortably allowed for people to play whatever they wanted.

You have a very strange definition of struggling. You also have a very strange definition of opinion. We aren’t talking opinions here. We’re discussing predictions over facts.

And in those predictions, it is very possible for you to be wrong.

ODB.6891:

I’m sorry, but that was a complete internalization of your own issues…brought to life in electronic print. He said nothing that hasn’t been openly admitted by many phiw players on these same forums.

You agree with his prejudices, and similarly feel them justified, so you are just echoing how right you think he is. And in doing so, you’ve already gotten several things wrong.

#1: He did name someone. Calls them PHIW. Detractors. You call them PHIW, too. And by giving them a name you’ve generalized a group of “others” who’s thoughts and feelings don’t matter. It doesn’t matter if you don’t say a specific name, it is still a recognizable group.
#2: The meta isn’t a consensus. It is an idea invented by a few that gets forced onto other players with such oppressive pervasiveness that others assume it true.
#3: The problem isn’t the existence of a meta. The problem is that the current meta has several facets that is undesireable to players. In particular, players want to be both useful while also being tanks and healers. This whole caricature of PHIW not wanting a meta is false, and yet it persists so much that elitists keep bringing it up over and over again. Like you just did.
#4: There were no room for exception or other people in that quote. He said that the reason (ONE reason, singular) that there were some “detractors” from the meta, is because they can’t “grasp” (understand, comprehend, to get a hold of mentally) how to play properly. Clearly labeling them as the minority, declaring them mentally incapable, and not giving any allowance for exceptions or legitimacy in difference of opinion. The implication here is that, if these people weren’t so mentally incapable, then everyone would be on board with the zerker meta. Ergo, disagree = stupid.

Either the OP is needs to learn how to write better, or the OP is an elitist who’s trying (and failing) to hide his discriminatory position. And since I just quoted the OP going out of his way to pronounce how much he is winning the argument, I’m going to go with the latter.

Harper.4173:

You make a fair point – but this doesn’t fix the problem.
If mesmer is best at reflecting but ele brings enough reflects for the raid while bringing let’s say superior dps then there’s never any reason to bring mesmer over ele. Because even if he’s strongest at reflecting it isn’t needed.

Simlarly we might see a requirement for the class that does “good enough of role X as needed to progress while adding as much to the party as possible” – in this case engineers, eles and guardians might fare very well with other more niche-classes being left aside.

Got to be honest: I’m not even sure what you mean by “problem” anymore.
A)The meta being theoretically more oppressive because of required roles?
B)Classes being restricted to particular roles that suit them best?
C)The insistence of players to take a “best class” for that role?
D)The insistence of players to have optimum class composition?
E)The best class for a role not being the most focused?

To someone who wants to play as a healer, the exact level of discrimination between classes isn’t as important. Whether one class is better at being a healer for non-healer properties, that’s more of an issue of class balance then it is role balance. Class viability is a different topic that exists regardless of role viability in optimum builds. It is a legitimate problem, but not the problem pro-tank/healer players have with the meta.

There are advantages to having role be balanced in such a way that there is a wide margin between what is best and what is necessary. Particularly, it is more tolerant to pugging and randoms. It is a lot like the system we have now, except tank and healing roles will be enforced. Having the same variability but additional encourages roles, some would call that a win.

So long as you don’t mind the wait times.

Shalien.9018:

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

Shalien.9018:

You’ve missed the point entirely.

We’ve broken down dozens of times why it’s not on par with the other elite spec mechanics. The sum total of everything is not what concerns people.

You’ve missed the point entirely. My point is that people are wrong to ignore everything else. Their analysis, much like your analysis, chooses to ignore how good any of these things are, and instead looks only at sheer quantity. That’s not how it works. Its like a kid with a pound of steak being jealous of another kid with 2 pounds of sawdust because “sawdust boy got more”.

It is lying by omission. Simple as that.

No it’s the quality of the elite spec, not the quantity of what’s been given.

Opinions aside, arguing against arguing has never worked. Do you honestly believe complaining that people are complaining is more productive than the feedback the complainers are giving?

You just did it. You just told me that no body cared about the sum, and instead everyone is focusing on the “Mechanic”. You dumped two paragraphs and a list about that one, single fact while completely ignoring the quality and synergy of everything. You are either so irrational that you haven’t put two and two together, or you are so shameless that you are lying right to my face.

This forum is filled non-constructive tantrums that are bellowing so loud that they’re silencing any constructive thoughts. Its so bad that when someone made a thread in the PVP forum over the topic of thieves he was bashed down again and again over how wrong they were. It is crap like this that makes it hard for the devs to get constructive feedback. And like an impetuous child, this forum needs to be brought to its senses.

For the love of all things cloaked in stealth, say something that is right for a change.

I don’t have a PVP/WvW build yet. For PVE, my plan so far is the following:

Sword/Sword, Hammer. Sigil of Force on both. Second Sigil Undecided.
Full Berserker Gear. Scholar Runes
Shiro/Glint Utilities
Devastation Line: Vicious Lacerations, Assassin’s Presence, Swift Termination
Invocation Line: Cleansing Channel, Incensed Response, Rolling Mists
Herald Line: Hardening Persistence, Shared Empowerment, Elder’s Force

Shalien.9018:

You’ve missed the point entirely.

We’ve broken down dozens of times why it’s not on par with the other elite spec mechanics. The sum total of everything is not what concerns people.

You’ve missed the point entirely. My point is that people are wrong to ignore everything else. Their analysis, much like your analysis, chooses to ignore how good any of these things are, and instead looks only at sheer quantity. That’s not how it works. Its like a kid with a pound of steak being jealous of another kid with 2 pounds of sawdust because “sawdust boy got more”.

It is lying by omission. Simple as that.

Beetamus.6403:

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

Beetamus.6403:

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

Zerker gear will still be useful. Don’t believe the hype. If anything, PVE thieves will just have to change from No Quarter to Invigorating Precision, and heal themselves for 700 per hit.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA…..

700 per hit HAHAHAHAHAHA…..

Ok, I think that’s out of my system….

No, wait… HAHAHAHAHA….

So a bit of math. On my dagger auto I will frequently hit 5k on the second and third attack. Invigorating precision recovers 15% of crit damage, and 15% of 5k is 750 health. Likewise, I also regularly hit 14k backstabs (2.1k heal) and 12k heartseekers (1.8k health per seeker), 4k-4k-7k with the sword auto (2250 health per chain per target hit), and 18k pistol whips (2.7k health per target).

This is all with No Quarter, which is exclusive against Invigorating Precision, so the actual numbers you’ll get are toned down a bit. This has two interesting behaviors. First is that a thief gets healing proportional to their crit damage, so the more damage you do coughzerkercough the more you can heal yourself. Second is that against multiple targets, the healing is so high that unless the thief gets one-shot, the thief will quickly heal up to maximum again.

Personally, I don’t think it is funny that you can’t do math. I just think it is sad.

So, a bit of common sense. Are you telling me that you can do THAT much damage just using your build? No help in the form of big might or vulnerability stacks from any other classes to help you as we are not talking optimal only runs. Otherwise we can say anything is fine.

Nope. With group buffs I do 18k backstabs. A couple more math notes on the subject:

Resting Backstab damage: 2347
Starting Power: 2,666
Crit Damage: 245.7
Crit Chance: 95%

Modifiers:
+750 Power Might
+200 Power Revealed Training
+100 Orrian Truffle Steak
x1.25 Vulnerability
x1.05 Sigil of Force
x1.1 Scholar Rune Bonus
x1.1 Exposed Weakness
x1.2 Executioner
x1.1 (Lead Attacks)

Ending Power: 3,716
Scaled non-crit power: 7,790
Crit Mod: 2.457
Power on Crit: 19,140
Overall Mod: 7.18
Final Backstab Damage: 16,850

You’re probably thinking that it isn’t 18k. Well, most groups come with a banner warrior nowadays. Throw banner of strength, banner of disciipline, and empower allies, and you’ll get the following:

Ending Power: 4036
Crit Chance: 103%
Crit Mod: 2.57
Scaled non-crit power: 8,461
Crit Power: 21,744
Final Mod: 8.16
Final Backstab Damage: 19,142

The number goes up and down 5% due to variance in weapon strength. I should also note that this isn’t an optimized build, either. I’m not using potions or night sigil, and I only have 2 ascended rings on this toon. It can go higher than that. For enemies above 50% health replace Executioner with Ferocious Strikes (10% above 50% health on crit).

The numbers I quoted you are what I get wandering around in Silverwastes. Without any might or vulnerability you get 12k backstabs. With 25 vulnerability (which isn’t hard, given how many people passively stack it) you get 15k backstabs. Due to the random amount of might, vulnerability, and team buffs that I get, the damage is between there usually.

Harper.4173:

Let me try to explain things again – if certain roles are needed for raids then the classes that best perform those roles will be forced into them – you won’t be playing a “dps guardian” if you’re a guardian and your best role is “healer cleric” you’ll be doing that while the party looks for a “dps ele” or whatever else is needed.

The whole situation then becomes – if I’m in a raid and want to play a certain role l will now have to play that specific class that does the role best which will limit your options even more as I see it.

The thing is, this isn’t necessarily true, either. Counter example: a soft-role in the game is projectile stopper. It is necessary for many things, such as the high level grawl fractal. This “role” is fulfilled by many classes, particularly guardians, mesmers, elementalists, soon revenants, and possibly engineer, too. I’m not too keen on current engi builds. Anyway, the best projectile stopper out of them all is the mesmer, and yet guards and eles are more than sufficient at stopping the lava elementals at each wave. If you are in a party without one of the above 4, you’re in for a world of hurt, but so long as you have one it is doable.

Similar thing here. The “best” class at any role only becomes a necessity if content is designed assuming the “best” role. The traditional trinity system built encounters in this exact way: calculate maximum effective HP and healing of the optimum tank + healer combo, then give enemies just under that amount of damage. In other games, this forced people to build for the maximum in any role. If GW2 doesn’t balance this way, then the “healer” role can be fulfilled by many classes.

That said, this is a legitimate concern, and it is the first one I had seeing how much healing the druid outputs. I’m hopeful that Anet is just underestimating how much a quick change in tactics of engagement can mitigate damage, and if not I’m hopeful that Anet is wise enough to not make only the best possible healer a requirement.

There is no such thing as unintentional design.

Several reasons here. Not necessarily in this order.

#1: I’m looking forward to the Daredevil. I want to use Pai Mei’s five point palm exploding heart technique all over the place. Hearts will be exploding with reckless abandon. Also I’m looking forward to greater AoE direct damage via staff.

#2: I love the defensive utilities the thief has. I’m generally a defensive minded player, and the thief has several tools to deal with that. Copious weakness application, projectile stopping and reflecting, spammable blind fields, weapon evades, relatively high personal healing, and stealth. Stealth in PVE is underrated, as it is the best aggro management tool. Drop aggro from yourself or an ally, and put down a shadow refuge to rez the dead. The thief is really good at carrying pugs because of this.

#3: I love the open ended combos of the class. Initiative means my weapon skills can be chained in any number of ways, so instead of being limited by a ticking clock I can engage an enemy how I see fit.

#4: I love the finishers. The thief is the only class I know that has good access to every single finisher in the game. This lets me do some surprising things on occasion.

#5: No flashy effects. Playing other classes blinds me to all their bright effects, so much that I see them when I close my eyes. The tiny black trail behind thief weapons is unobtrusive, giving me an unobstructed view of whatever I’m fighting. Because of this, I find my skill while playing the thief is higher than other better classes.

#6: I like the condi builds, too. Currently they have greater AoE damage, but the venomshare build with a few NPCs can burst so much damage on an enemy that it is unbelievable.

#7: Though we should have better access to this, I like boon stealing. There’s just something so fun about getting over a minute of protection while fighting dredge, or retaliation against Karka.

#8: I love thief spear as an underwater weapon. The evade skill is solid, but nine-tail strike is extremely useful against champs in the lake.

Beetamus.6403:

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

Zerker gear will still be useful. Don’t believe the hype. If anything, PVE thieves will just have to change from No Quarter to Invigorating Precision, and heal themselves for 700 per hit.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA…..

700 per hit HAHAHAHAHAHA…..

Ok, I think that’s out of my system….

No, wait… HAHAHAHAHA….

So a bit of math. On my dagger auto I will frequently hit 5k on the second and third attack. Invigorating precision recovers 15% of crit damage, and 15% of 5k is 750 health. Likewise, I also regularly hit 14k backstabs (2.1k heal) and 12k heartseekers (1.8k health per seeker), 4k-4k-7k with the sword auto (2250 health per chain per target hit), and 18k pistol whips (2.7k health per target).

This is all with No Quarter, which is exclusive against Invigorating Precision, so the actual numbers you’ll get are toned down a bit. This has two interesting behaviors. First is that a thief gets healing proportional to their crit damage, so the more damage you do coughzerkercough the more you can heal yourself. Second is that against multiple targets, the healing is so high that unless the thief gets one-shot, the thief will quickly heal up to maximum again.

Personally, I don’t think it is funny that you can’t do math. I just think it is sad.

Harper.4173:

But the disadvantage is that a guardian who doesn’t want to do that will have little room in the new content since that build is very necessary.
I mean sure – you could spread out the healing over multiple classes but why would you bother when you could force your guardian to play Cleric’s or replace him with one that will.

Not necessarily. For the ambiguous “that” to be true, a guardian would have to both inept at other roles but skilled at healing. If a guard is capable of both healing and damage, then both a healing guard and a damage guard could be in the same party.

The problem with this complaint is that it is far more specific, and thus it applies to far fewer people. There is a big difference between “I want to play a certain role” and “I want to play a certain role on a certain class”. The difference being the latter just changes classes, where the former just stops playing the game.

Harper.4173:

No – what you don’t get is that from an elitist point of view it does not matter why you are not playing the meta build – it doesn’t matter that you don’t play it because you’re not skilled enough or because you dislike it.

If it didn’t matter, then elitists wouldn’t spend time trying to come up with theories to explain someone else’s opinions are illegitimate.

EDIT: Fixed code

Slowmelt.8547:

The point has never been that it’s not effective
It’s that it’s not very interesting.
Elite Specializations were, we were told, grand departures from the norm of a class. A whole new way of approaching things.
The Daredevil is a straight upgrade to the core Thief, and will be required for us to be survivable in the new content… if we’re lucky.
And we’re still going to have a much harder time of it than any other Elite, while gaining little extra for the amount of effort it takes us to survive.

#1: I find it interesting. This sounds like a “you” problem. Besides, the appearance problems are already being polished out, so this issue may be temporary.
#2: Where was it said that these were grand departures? I want a quote. Besides, I find its prolonged stun heavy nature and new aggressive dodging is a departure of the stealth heavy burst-and-run thieves of the current day.
#3: Daredevil being required is a core thief problem. I’m not even sure it is required, given that venomshare support and stealth-heavy specs won’t use it. I’m not even sure daredevil is maximum DPS in PVE. Wait until after the balance notes on tuesday to make this claim.
#4: I’m not sure we’re going to have a harder time than other elites. I don’t know where you get this idea, and I would like to see where it comes from.

thrag.9740:

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

I’m sorry, but Nemesis has a point, and in all of everyone’s rantings and ravings I have yet to see it disproved.

What point are you referring to?

The part where he claimed everyone line casts? Seriously, I’ve done about 500 dungeon runs and 100 fractal runs in the past 6 months. No one line casts. It is way too unreliable.

He never claimed everyone linecasts. He claimed that the icebow as a whole is artificially inflating the DPS numbers of everyone else in the party.

thrag.9740:

Also, if 5 eles are so clearly the best comp, why don’t we see them in game now? I have never once seen “fractal 50, eles only”.

5 eles would’ve been in the best comp for raids.

Like I said before: it doesn’t matter if you’ve never seen anyone use it. Linecasting still exists. Not seeing someone do it doesn’t make it not exist. The amount of people who use it can change in an instant. Hell, I’d even argue that with how frequently pugs will push a boss against a wall/corner, that they’ve been doing it unknowingly for years.

Personally, I’d prefer they just fixed linecasting and kept Icebow where it was.

thrag.9740:

arkealia.2713:

DresdenAllblack.1249:

This is what line casting does for a skill. Ruin a skill because 5% take advantage of a glitch they were too lazy to fix.

Or maybe they wanted to prevent a 5 ele requirement for raids just because of icebow?

Why don’t we have 5 ele meta for fractals?

A raid has 10 people. 5 eles would provide group icebows, while the other 5 players would provide other useful utilities. Phalanx Warriors, support mesmers, etc.

Zerker gear will still be useful. Don’t believe the hype. If anything, PVE thieves will just have to change from No Quarter to Invigorating Precision, and heal themselves for 700 per hit.

I find a lot of these complaints to be wrong to the point where it is irrational.

The daredevil is not the new class mechanic. The daredevil is the sum total. It is the new weapon, new utilities, new traits, and new mechanical additions to the class. You have to take all of these into consideration, or else you are outright lying in your complaints.

Looking at everything, the Daredevil is solid. Sure the animations are unpolished, but think about what we do get. Look first at the staff:

*A weapon auto that stacks 14 vulnerability and reflects projectiles. Previously you had to be a condi thief to stack decent vulnerability, and now you don’t.
*Weakening Charge hits harder than heartseeker, does it on 5 targets, and inflicts weakness on each hit for the same initiative cost.
*An evade skill that cures immobilize, the greatest weakness of weapon dodges.
*A recently buffed cone blind
*Another massive AoE damage leap finisher + movement skill which itself may become a dodge
*A 2 second knockdown from stealth

Conclusion: The weapon is a high damage weakness and vulnerability spammer with multiple finishers and an evade you can’t “lock down” like the others.

And the utlities:
*A combo melee skill which outpaces haste in overall damage increase and stuns for 2 seconds.
*A 15/12 second recharge stun breaker block which counterattacks with a 2 second knockdown in melee.
*Power Block + Mantra of Distraction in a single utility
*A ranged skill which inflicts slow, immobilize and poison on another player while doing decent damage
*A somewhat gimmicky finisher skill that dazes + knockdowns for 3 seconds
*A heal skill which recharges 75% endurance every 20/16 seconds.

Conclusion: A crap ton of disables mixed with both offensive and defensive power, capable of being used at multiple ranges. The heal skill provides a massive endurance boost, greater than perma vigor when by itself and greater than pre-nerf vigor when traited.

And the traits:
*Default specialization trait which gives 50 endurance, and takes away nothing.
*Minor heal on dodge. Strong enough to be useful
*50 Endurance on Steal
*A choice between recharge reduction and endurance on physical skills, minor damage buff after dodging, or weakness on crit
*A choice between omni condi cleanse on dodge, endurance regen + damage bonus on staff, and a strong hit on every interrupt
*A choice between a leap finisher damaging dodge, a whirl finisher condi dodge, and a condi cleansing long range dash.

Conclusion: solid traits that let you make offensive, defensive, or even mixed decisions on what you want to buff. The utilities are versatile enough to be used with every other trait line, making them a toolbox that augments the thief in many ways.

So the utilities are good. The weapon is good. The traits are good. You can build for ranged or melee combat, condition or direct damage (even hybrid with how pulmonary impact works), offensive or defensive. It is literally anything you could want in an elite specialization. And yet, the entire forum has decided to take point on a single contrived deficiency, and just hammer that point into the ground.

This isn’t about base thief. Base thief can use some improvements. But once the movements are polished, daredevil is solid.

Coronit.9432:

Well, we can´t know yet what they mean with “you can’t dodge it all”. Maybe just undodgable or you need more dodges. Thats still in the stars.
Thanks for summarize that stuff, but what lacks there is a view over synergy. You can´t have everything.

It isn’t about having everything. It is more about the fact that Daredevils have so many options and can spec in so many ways, most of which produce a whole lot more dodging than any other class gets. Not going too heavily into exceptions, every daredevil is going to have access to the following:

A)Weapon Dodges
B)Stealth/Dodge/Endurance on heal
C)50 Endurance on Steal
D)50 more maximum endurance
E) Some kind of Skill on dodge (either damage, condi damage, or dash + cleanse)
F)Heal on dodge (minor, but not exclusive with anything)

And that is just by being a daredevil. Should you need more dodges, you can just build for more dodges. If you need something else, well the DD has plenty of other survival tools.

For this reason, I’m not going to jump onto the all is vain train whenever the devs announce that some damage will be unavoidable.