Guild Wars 2

I have to say that I typically don’t care much about horizontal progression, but there are some annoying things which just would improve quality of life.

1. Harvesting Permanent Items Sure they are account bound, but that hardly makes it not annoying to have to log on and off characters to play pass the bone pick. You have a system for the achievement chest items where once unlocked you can get as many soulbound copies as you want. Why not do that with all the account bound permanent harvesting gear?

2. Dyes Dyes should be account bound versus character bound. It is too frustrating to have to redo work. This is one of the reasons I was soooo happy to be able to buy tomes of knowledge for glory. I hate redoing PvE. Well, once I get a dye, I don’t want it to be bound on just one toon. Then I have toons of all different shapes, sizes, dyes, etc. I get having characters have different vertical progression profiles but why in the World would I want that to be true for horizontal progression (e.g. fluff)?

3. Profession Swapping For a gold, let me change professions. Please dear God don’t make me have to level up again! This would avoid the ever so awful need to redo PvE just to get an alt and a fresh look at a class. We can do this in pvp, so why not wvw and PvE? Gear wouldn’t transfer so it would be easiest to move from a light armor to light armor or heavy to heavy but that is entirely up to you.
Absolutely, I want to change professions when changes are made to them that make one interesting that was not previously.

I love my hobosacks. I just wish I could get a set of skins for them.

Engie may seem beta to some (and may be) but perhaps in that we find that this class has more build and play diversity than any other class I have found. It requires extraordinary active play to balance combinations and kits but a lot of fun and quite well powered, actually.

Not quite sure what the complaint is really.

Not sure it is a slap in the face. It is a short timer for an elite and can be used effectively. I still prefer crate stun and the med kits from it.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fcQQJAqelIqqb3zSiF1LJyoCdGoC6lIFYml95hcxWQIA-jkCBYhgINBhqAhkGgEBMHqIasl1FRjVzATliIq2joIa1A-w

Running a bomb/nade/egun buld. New to this class so questions for you master tinkerers. This is based on watching Yoshis video and my play style preference of having lots of combinations/fields.

1. Jewels. I am currently using the Crysoola ones for the extra condition damage BUT should I be using the Coral ones to get crit rate up (I proc bleeds and burn on crit)?

2. Runes. I use perplexity because I find I can get a few extra stacks with this set especially with the shield. Worth it? Or is Undead better?

3. Traits. Backpack regen is a really small heal with this build. Transmute also is one condition every 15 seconds which is ok but I do have HT and egun. Would I be better putting the points in

a. Firearms: So it would be 30/30/0/0/10 and I would pick up the ability to get a faster heal with the egun (also removes a condition). But I give up transmute and hidden flask which really are the gems in my opinion. Thoughts?

Inventions: No Speedy kits but I would have elixir imbued bombs which heal for a lot more than BR. PLUS, they heal a group. And extra toughness is helpful too. Minor traits don’t help as much and frankly I might miss the difference in the speed.

4. Traits #2 Invigorating Speed or Blood Injection? Speed is ok, but it only applies when you get a fresh swiftness on you (so about 40% up). The trouble is when I swap kits is generally not when I need extra dodges. Thoughts? Vigor trait doesn’t seem to stay up the way I thought it would. especially when the minor trait gives me 30 seconds of swiftness when I am under 75%. Am I not understanding the trait invigorating speed?

a. What would you replace invigorating speed with? Protection Injection seems a good defensive choice. Acidic coating could also be extremely helpful but the cool down is worse. Who uses which? Experiences? Remember, I have the shield to block ranged damage.

5. Sigils. In theory the +6% condition damage makes sense BUT what about the fact that every attack that went crit could provide another bleed stack? Anyone figure out which is better? Will be running about 40-45% crit chance.

Thanks for the help!

Carboy:

Is your interest in the kit tied to the fact you solo/small roam more?
Would you feel similarly or different in larger engagements?

I do love the pull So many evil things you can do with that and a good bomb.
Outside the pull, it doesn’t offer much to anyone but the engie where that elixir does.

I need to play around with it more I guess. Fingers getting sore from all the kit swapping!

I swap out AOE stability elixir with toolkit a lot. (I admit being new to class).
Toolkit just isn’t doing much. When in melee I tend to use bombs. I also tend to use runes of altruism which help when in groups as well as solo.

The other utility I played with is Throw Mine. I like the blast finisher on the active and the utility belt skill will strip 5 boons which is not bad at all (1 per mine).

S was pretty useful too. As is blasting a longer stealth after you run a bit away.

For zerg wvw I sort of like Elixir R as a way to get downed allies up.

The other tweak I was tinkering with was dropping backpack regen (I know heresy) and getting inverter converter. That should allow me to use bandage self twice which may actually be much better. It also would allow doubling up of big bomb/elixir R or whatever elixir you use etc. Thoughts?

Using the cleric/power version.

I like undead.
Antitoxin work well too but I prefer having that extra 70-80 condition damage.

In some builds with high +boon duration, you actually can use runes of altruism and get more condition damage stacking might/fury. This works well with HT or any heal skill that has a proc on summoning and then another on the active heal. (It seems tied to the trigger of #6).

1. Making sure I get it. I think “on swap” sigils work even when I swap kits right?
And “on crit” sigils work so long as I have the weapons equipped even if I am “in kit”, right?

2. I believe that shrapnel is looking to apply a bleed to every target it hits (up to 15 theoretically with grenadier) but how does sharpshooter work? I can’t tell.

3. As a bomb/nade/e gun engineer, outside the F4 healing mist, how would you break stuns? Do you find a need to drop e gun (lots of great utility with weakness I find) for a stun breaking elixir?

4. I frequently swap skills, equipment and builds on my other char. Engie has soooo many builds (love it) but what is the order of equipment sets you would get to frequently change builds.
I currently have Rampager.
Thinking Apothecary next for a tanky heal specs
Then. . . . ?

Farkled
And I still like Bombsaway even if bombs just don’t beat nades.

Pets are awesome. . . concepts.
They lack a few things.
1) Make them run and attack faster than anything else. We need them to get their attacks off.
2) Speed up animations and give a small 60-90 range to allow for the animation. Especially the F2 skills. They need to launch fast!
3) Create a buff of 50% less damage when out of combat. That would help them run in and do damage without dying and manage splash damage.
4) Return to me should result in the pet being unable to attack for 5 seconds AND should immediately take pet out of combat (so it takes 50% less damage)

Don’t want to hog the forum, but I am the new kid with a lot of “head scratchers”

1) Nades/Bombs force tradeoffs in Explosives. Which do you skip: forceful explosions or shrapnel?

2) Why take backpack regen and speedy kits instead of power shoes and elixir infused bombs? Inventions focus on healing power and toughness is also better than +boon if you are not taking HGH right?

3) How do you map to manage so many kit swaps?

4) Condition removal seems the bane of the nade/bomb engie. For group support and blast based combos, I would want healing turret, but the only real way to remove enough conditions seems to be the med kit’s antidote. Do I need to drop elixir gun for an elixir? That would be disappointing (especially given the long cooldowns).

5) How are you balancing power and crit chance with condition damage? We have a lot of conditions that come on crit and I could argue that a blend of all three stats beats focusing on one. Is that bad theorycraft? How do you manage the balance with nades/bombs/elixir?

6) Do elixir infused bombs have an internal cooldown that is hidden? Otherwise, using bomb I would be able to heal 2x a second right?

Builds I am Considering

1) Elixir Filled

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fcQQJAqel0p6ZHxyuF17ISoH239pWgKAYfeIXsFEC-jUCBohgYNBhqAgEJh5PFRjtaqIasaGYaTER1eEFRrWKAYmDA-w

Concept is that I don’t really need as much +boon as increased toughness and healing power. Bombs do more healing than the backpack and are great for groups, I think. Sure, I have to be “in kit” but I tend to find when I am taking damage I am.

Power shoes may be a horrid substitute for speedy kits. If I need speedy kits, this build falls apart. Power shoes work out of combat now too right?

I like the number of fields and combos that a p/s plus bomb/nade/elixir can setup especially running a healing turret.

I also feel like I am missing out on shrapnel (almost as if you really can’t take bombs and nades together because you need 4 traits vs 3 allowed). Does shrapnel matter that much?

What is the fascination with the alchemy line over inventions if not using HGH which would be a great might stacker?

This seems to be a solid group build.

2) Perplexing

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fcQQJAqel0p6ZHxSyF1LJyoCdGoCAmIF5nl95hcxWQIA-jUCBohgYNBhqAgEJh5PFRjtsuIasaGYaTER1eEFRrWKAYmDA-w

This build replaces the elixir gun with a tool kit. Not sure if that makes sense when I have bombs too. But, the theory is I can leverage perplexity nicely with pry bar, static shot and concussion bomb. And because the shield will pull (interrupt) you get more perplexity.

I went med kit to get far better condition removal as this build is quite susceptible.

Problems:

1. It seems to sacrifice a LOT in terms of other condition damage. Perplexity worth it?

2) Toughness in this or any 30/10/0/20/10 build seems absurdly low. How do you not feel like a glass cannon?

3) Backpack regenerator seems meh and I wonder if I could get more out of inventions line.

The alternative build is to take condition runes like undead and elixir gun v tool kit. Thoughts?

Ok, looked at Yishi’s build and it has all the gear I think I would enjoy most (elixir gun, bomb, nade) with heavy focus on conditions and combos.

Anyone have his build (traits, gear, runes, sigils)? I can sort of guess but I am quite new to this class.

Could really use help on whether or not you can get a good bomb/grenade build for WvW.

Anyone?

Not seeing many nade/bomb builds to look at.

New to engie.

Engineer has a LOT of flexibility on builds it would seem. I am going to be buying a full set of gear and need to know which is the most flexible for different builds like HGH and bomb/nade condition.

Generally, per name, I wanted to play an explosion oriented WvW group play character and really like all the fields and blasts I can use providing support while doing condition damage.

Thinking of using pistol + shield
Bomb
Grenade
Elixer
Heal Turret

30 in Explosives is a given for me
But then it is tough to know what is going to be a bit more versatile.
Power shoes is so tempting with bombs but seems in the wrong line for me.
Backpack regenerator seems almost necessary but again it limits a lot of choices.
If I get both backpack and power shoes, there is no room for speedy kits and running around slow sucks.

Runes. Well I would say runes of perplexity would still be a useful for this character but undead is another. Thoughts?

Gear. This is where I really struggle. So much of the gear decision will depend on whether I have condition removers and backpack regen. Is there any gear set you would suggest that would let me be pretty good even as I play around with multiple specs/builds? Looks like this is going to be a class where I need to just go get 3 or 4 sets of armor.

Not finding a lot of updated 2-3 kit condition/support builds out there. Anyone?

Ack! I was trying to make sense out of the numbers and that is it.
Still, it is great to get 3 might stacks so easily especially if you are a spirit ranger with +boon duration.

Once people get used to Water Spirit play and NV, you will find rangers even more desired in dungeons.

Rangers are not so bad that you simply should make a decision to or not to play them based on their perceived value.

Even a decent ranger can have a good contribution in a small roaming setting. Ranger utility does drop in larger zerg fights.

Realize you will be a mix of damage, cc and support. As such a full DPS ranger often doesn’t provide maximum value to a group. A spirit ranger that can quickly might stack to do damage does.

Ok, sort of looked at the video but it was long.
Typical DPS centric build focusing on power.

I like the following pets to really maximize power:
1. Get the Stalker for 5 might stacks (10 on pet because of nature 15)
2. Use Lashtail devourer to quickly stack might on ranger with F2 when activating RAO.
3. You get some fury on weapon swap. Red moa is meh.
4. I might be tempted to take a porcine for the forage items. Depends on playstyle which one I would pair with stalker.

Editing Storm:

The problem with pets is not that they are useless. The problems with pets are bug related making them less useful than they should be, like a glass half full or half empty.

A few thoughts:

1. Replace Entangle with RAO If you are roaming you will want RAO as it is quite long stability and you can quickly stack might on the pet and the pet (espec lashtail) on you.

2. More Defense Focus your armor less on offense and more on defense. I would go so far as to change my rune set to improve healing (altruism I just love) and then get might procs.

3. Go 30 Nature Your survivorability goes way up when you use nature’s voice (which will also heal your spirits) with water spirit. Water spirit + nature’s voice is much more healing than healing spring. Simply put, none of the healing attributes (on proc, heal on activations) are regenerations. So, nature’s voice stacks with the full benefit of WS. MUCH better. Piercing arrows is not worth 200ish hps regen. HS stinks if you have NV for the simple reason that the regen pulses out of a field you have to be inside of all the time. Plus, you have no blast finisher. NV also replaces the need for SotH.

4. Replace Wilderness Knowledge Two choices depending on playstyle. Vigorous renewal plays extremely well with Water Spirit given how it considers “on heal” to be on activation as well as every use of the active heal. You can quickly stack long duration 100% endurance for any 1v1 fight and tip the balance very quickly. On the other hand Expertise Training with mobs that are NOT canines works very well.

5. The Keen Edge Debate. Keen edge has value but so does malicious training with spiders (great for roaming) and beastmaster’s bond.

Well, I think it is quite clear that furious grip isn’t supposed to have 9 seconds of fury on a proc of weapon swap that occurs every 10 seconds if you so choose.

50% uptime is realistic. 90% is a bit much.

Unintended and a bug Yes
Overpowered No
All That Helpful? Not really. We have many sources of fury

I, for one, want them to tweak the LB a bit more intelligently than giving us a boon we have in abundance that stacks duration not potency when you have multiple sources of the boon.

1. I like the idea of a range penalty BUT I would counter that what would be better is to increase the base damage so that at long range the bow is a real beast and at shorter range the bow is still sufficient. I would prefer an increase to base damage.

2) Rapid fire should fire its shots more rapidly. I would like it to keep the 10x attacks (great for proccing). Vulnerability could last longer.

3) Hunter’s Shot should stealth on cast not hit.

4) Point Blank Shot should be chargeable. The more you charge it, the greater damage it does AND the further it knocksback the enemy. In theory, the ranger should have the longest knockback with the fully charged Hunter’s Shot.

5) Barrage needs a couple of things:
a. Better crowd control (longer durations)
b. Stealth to ranger while firing

LB should have an innate 1500 range.
LB should pierce automatically.

Eagle Eye should be adjusted to provide 5% damage and 20% reduced cool down for both longbow and short bow.

Shortbow (I know I am adding onto the original theme):

Needs to pierce on hit automatically
Should be 1200 range.

Ranger’s ranged prowess should come from having more range than anyone and having all skills pierce so as to provide the possibility for extra damage or “AE lite” effect.

The key to real effectiveness healing is to be able to:
1) Stack as many types of healing as possible
2) Pick the best regeneration (which is rarely a pulse based regeneration)
3) Have the most control possible on the timing of the healing
4) Get as much healing as you can which is instant
a. People tend to blow bit hit skills when they think they can finish you or get close. I almost always find that quickly filling up the health bar is much more troubling for my opponent than a constant heal.

_ My thoughts on how to bucket heals_

I don’t tend to think of heals as just heal per second because that leads to:

A) Discounting the Value of speed of healing and player control on the timing of the heal. In short, hps assumes constant value where the value of a heal differs at different points of a fight.

B) Ignoring pulse based healing which is difficult to get the full value (it tends to overstate what you will really get)

C) Ignores situations where the healing pulse/regen pulse has no damage to heal or only partially heals. This is less a problem when you control the heal as players typically wait until they can fully utilize the benefit.

D) Often ignores, though not necessarily, the inability to stack HPS of certain classes of healing especially regeneration which stacks duration versus potency. Note: This only applies to heals which actually use the regeneration buff.

My Buckets for Heals

1) Heal on Activate This is your basic heal. I treat them quite separately. You can stack as many heal on activates as you wish. This is the most valuable heal because you control it more or lesscompletely in terms of timing. This is also why it tends to be smaller.

Water Spring has two heal on actives.
Healing Spring has one heal on active and one regeneration.

I think of Healing Spring as two heals because that makes life easier in evaluating when it works better or worse.

Typically, but not always, these heals benefit from healing power.

This also includes any heal where you control the activation such as a heal on the swapping of a weapon or pet.

2) Heal Over Time This is a heal which DOES NOT use the regeneration buff. It therefore stacks with other sources of healing but takes time. The value of the heal is determined by both the total value of the heal and the amount of time it takes.

A 1000 heal which occurs over 10 seconds may be more valuable than a 2000 heal which occurs over 30 seconds.

Heal Over Times include:

1) Troll Unguent
2) Passive ability of Water Spirit once activated
3) SotW

The key to +_heal over time_ is that these heals benefit ONLY from healing power and never from additional boon duration. Their duration is fixed. That means a regeneration (below) is often more healing by providing more duration.

So if you had only a heal over time or a regeneration buff on a character with any sort of plus boon duration, you would want the regeneration buff.

You can stack heal over time abilities. That is key!

3) Regeneration Regeneration is very specific. It is a buff and can be removed by enemies under some conditions. It applies healing over time.

The biggest issue with regeneration is:

Multiple sources of regeneration do not stack effect, they stack duration (with the most effective regeneration source defining the amount healed per tick).

The first regeneration effect is worth more than subsequent effects

On the plus side, a regeneration heal typically gets the benefits of:
1) Being a boon (for certain skills that look to providing you with a benefit if you have a boon e.g. bountiful hunter)
2) Benefiting from both increased boon duration and increased healing power
3) Having traits that benefit regenerations “Nature’s Bounty” for ranger, “Concentration Training” for pets and all “Plus Boon Duration” Runes.

This tends to be the third most effective heal simply because the healing occurs too slowly. It is excellent supplemental healing but that healing is largely fixed and out of my control. Likewise, their is enormous value in having one regeneration but because two stack duration versus potency, it is quite limited.

Note *In ranking which regeneration you want, besides the size of the ticks, you should consider whether the regeneration applies its whole duration once or pulses"

Regenerations that provide the whole duration at one time are generally more effective. The key time that tends not to be true is when enemies remove boons (which is pretty rare in this game). In that case, the pulse would reapply.

You *_want*_ a regeneration. You just want the right one!

4) Heal on Proc This involves any heal which requires a specific action you can’t control per se to trigger. The classic example is a weapon sigil that provides a chance to proc on a critical hit. You don’t fully control when you crit.

Note The passive effect of Water Spirit is a heal on proc technically. Because it provides a 35/70% chance to trigger on a hit and because people hit a lot in the 10 second cooldown, it is consistent.

The key with a heal on proc is understanding the likelihood of the proc. In high crit builds, on crit healing works well and you look more to the cool down.

Ack, I would hate most of these changes. You throw out the good with the bad.

Rapid fire is excellent for having so many attacks for “on crit” and “on hot” dynamics. It shouldn’t be a charged shot but rather should shoot faster or harder.

The knockback on longbow you should never want to give up.

Spirits shouldn’t become just passive buffs because they also provide very nice active abilities. Chill, immobilize and blind are quite helpful especially being AE.

Short bow does need attention but what should we focus on: (lots of debate)
a. Increased range
b. Remove restriction on bleed for autoattack requiring positioning in flank/rear
c. Increased ability damage
d. Return to pre-“fix” speed?

LB skill changes:

Point blank would be my choice for a charged shot as it has lower range anyway. It should do more damage and the greater the charge the farther you throw the enemy back. That could be great fun. In fact, rangers would be more viable if we could throw enemies back father than any other class.

Barrage can root us all day long if it puts us into stealth while attacking (call it cammo). That would also make remorselessness start to make more sense for a LB build.

Hunters shot should stealth even if the shot does not hit.

A few thoughts. Can explain in more detail but let’s not overwhelm.

1. Berserker gear is a power damage set. LB is a solid power damage bow. SB is logically a condition bow, though some advanced players can coax it into a power build. You will find that GS, Sword/Horn are a bit more power oriented.

2. Two bows often struggles when you are an initial ranger. Think about a one hander and an off hand. Try balancing your style between range and melee.

3. Because power and critical are in two lines and will need to be traited, you will have precious few points for defense (given your preferred set) so you want to think carefully about how you take utilities and pets to make up for your lack of healing and toughness. You will be very glass cannon focused.

4. PvE and zerker work well because the mob’s attention can be focused on the frontline or pet. Spvp is a limited number v limited number and zerker builds can work well, though not really at holding points. In large scale WvW, zerker builds are very difficult for new players to stay alive. You simply take too much damage too fast.

High damage is the way of getting to level 80, but at 80 you often want to start by getting used to a far more defensive build where damage is more condition focused at least initially to get exposed to the difference in how it plays/survives.

My assumptions. You know what they say about assumptions about what made the ranger class not work.

1) ANet never really found the right balance between range and melee. And not having a rock, paper, scissors type game (e.g. defined roles for classes) allowed the ranger to become the king of “meh”.
2) Rangers are one of the most creatively designed classes with the way they did
a. Pets
b. Spirits
c. Traps
The pet concept is a GREAT concept (find and tame, unique skills by class of pet, one unique special). But that net new, led to a meatball sundae when pets which were the largest component of the “net new” design just didn’t work the way they want them to.
3) ANet is a bit stuck now between bandaid fixes to “work around” the troubled pet mechanic or waiting (and annoying) rangers up until they can really “dig in”. Now your and ANETs definition of “digging in” will vary. Once the pet falls down, then the class as a whole struggles to fit together as traits, lines and synergies were tied back to pet/ranger working together.
4) ANET tried to do too much with the ranger and wound up with split lines and lack of synergy. Our weapons have interesting effects and our traits are rather unique, but you have traps in precision and way too much needed in marksmanship.
a. In theory, you can create a lot of different types of a ranger (traps, melee, bow, pet, spirits, etc) but they don’t all work well. Again, by giving us too much to play with, we got a lot of broken toys.

Warrior was a poor class to play for quite a bit of time. It is now OP. Often when you fix a class you go a bit too far.

Ranger is a bit harder to fix. We have so many different mechanics. Our pet AI is much harder to change. You have some hard limits on range. Etc.

In short, I don’t think they are happy with where the ranger is today. I think a lot of the problem comes from asking “ok what can we do to fix the ranger given we can’t easily fix the heart of the matter which is pet AI without breaking a lot of stuff”?

Well, that was only for the buff pets. The cc pets, it is about the timing of the cast after you swap. A lot of times, I find that if I am running a pet and it is on guard mode and attacking or pathing to attack, it’s F2 won’t fire. If I swap the pet and quickly F2, it tends to work well (I guess because it has no other commands yet to screw it up).

I short, there are workarounds which are a pain in the kitten but work more often than not to get those F2s working.

LB and SB are both viable now.

LB rapid fire is fast. Sure you can stack might other ways but you still have to consider that if you have LB there is a benefit to 10x for rapid vs 5x for volley. That is my point.
It applies equally to any runes that are (on crit) chances. You have more chances with rapid.

Volley is great for might stacking but I tend to hold it back given the long refresh cycle for later in a fight.

And I really think the vulnerability stacks of rapid are too discounted especially when you are focusing on targets with a group.

Simple conclusions. Thanks for the update on how to format. Will read that later.

For now, this can explain the premise of the walls of text for those who then want to go back and read them thinking it is provocative.

Chrispy is an obviously bright guy too, and this is a good healthy debate. Nothing but respect for his effort and thought practice. I just come to a different conclusion. You may come to either one or your own.

Overall, in most situations, WS beats HS is my hypothesis. This is ultimately, tied to the fact that regeneration stacks duration vs potency and I want as many non-regeneration sources of healing on account of this fact and the fact that I have so many other ways to get regen for the team. I am also basing my hypothesis on looking at the combined group/personal benefit of WS v HS. Running solo, a solo only heal of HaO and/or TU do better. Finally, HS is the worst regen in the sense that it has many small pulses forcing you to be in the field. Other regens provide the full duration so long as you are close on activation.

11 steps to why WS is often better than HS.

1) Regeneration stacks duration v. potency. Most of the heal of HS comes from regeneration.
2) Having another source of regeneration is what dramatically lowers the usefulness of HS as a heal (versus a combo or condition remover). Having replacement condition removers has the same effect for the condition remover benefit.
3) HS has a major defect as a regen in that it pulses. So you have multiple pulses of regen over a long time. It is the pulse that makes you stay in the field. If you have similar HPS regens, you want HS last.
4) In most pvp or wvw fights, you lose many of the pulses of HS because you won’t stay in the field for the whole duration (especially the insanely high durations you get with boon).
5) Other regens, (Fern Hound and Nature’s Voice), provide the full duration on allies so long as they are within range on activation. No pulses is a huge benefit.
6) NV is typically the full benefit in regen of HS with no pulses. Boon is the friend of NV much more than HS because of pulses.
7) ) Fern hound negates most of the benefit of HS if no boon or no heal power. Fact, is that the fixed 1930 of WS does better that way too.
8) The “burst” of WS is better than the non-regen self-heal of HS. You have to take into account that both the initial self heal of WS and the group heal occur “at once” and are added together for burst. You can’t fairly compare WS self to HS self and WS group to HS regen for the reason that the group heal is benefit on activation vs benefit over period of time.
9) 1930 “burst” group heal does not conflict with regen your team already has nor does the 75+ hps “on hit” passive. Because of that a lower value regeneration (such as fern hound) when added to these non-conflicting numbers, heals an ally more.
10) Keeping the pet alive to get one active heal off is easy. You only need one active heal per pet cast (given the on death re-summon and activation is effectively 25 seconds the same as waiting for the cooldown). Don’t run around out of a fight with the water spirit up!!!!
11) All things being equal or even close, having control of when healing occurs and healing all at once versus steady ticks over a period of time is better.

Thanks for the FAQ on what the commands are for formatting. I couldn’t find them!

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fMAQNBlOD7kjoyK7qwpCWLDItHUi5hJvCpn7RpcKhYGzcyMG-TsAAzCpIaS1krJTTymsNNEZJyuCA

Ok, this build is a modified spirit build that focuses on getting high condition damage from might stacking while having very significant defenses from spirits. Once you get high might, you have the pets and weapons to bleed the enemy.

You have 5 stacks of might from pet
3 stacks of might on weapon swap
3 stacks of might on pet activation

Because you share might stacks with the pet your pet gets
10 from F2 of Stalker
6 on pet activation
3 on weapon swap

Plus, you have RAO where you will use the horn to almost instantly buff the pet or use the lashtail to almost instantly get your might stacks to max (also swapping pets/weapons and using stalker).

Especially in spvp, I find the water spirit to be better. See the reasons why on the healing calculation thread. Essentially, the key is you have a very strong regen from nature’s voice. Regens stack duration not potency. So the burst of WS with a passive that does not use the regen buff is much better. Just don’t run the spirit as always active.

Well if you want to compare Volley and Rapid Fire please remember rapid fire does more than just DPS.

Rapid Shot has the benefit of being 10 strikes (potential hits) for anything that procs (on hit or on crit).
This synergizes very well with RAO’s might stacking a pet or companion might or sharpened edges and can inflict up to 10 stacks of vulnerability with the effect of the skill itself.

Rapid shot is really good when used in a group targeted situation. YOU lose damage vs volley but having 2-3 of your friends and you hitting a guy for 10% more damage matters.

Let’s say now that you have no boon duration and only 100 healing so you have mighty swap.

HS:
5020 Self/Pet Heal 167 HPS Burst.
2565 Regen over 18 seconds but on a 30 second refresh so 142.5 on short fights and 85 HPS on longer fights.
Total HPS: 309 (short)/252 (longer fight)
AND, you get to stand in the water for a long time.

WS:
3900 Heal (Self + Pet) 156 HPS
1930 (Group) 77 HPS
801 (Passive on Hit): every 10-12 seconds (will assume if you take spirits you take at least the adept trait!): 67 hps
Total burst HPS: 233 (vs the 167 HS burst)
Total HPS from just WS: 300 (vs 309 on a short fight with HS and 252 on long fight)
Fern Hound: 1300 over 10 seconds 130 (short fight)/52 (long fight)
Total HPS WS + Hound 430 (short fight) v 352 (Long fight)

Because you can take WS WITH another regeneration source (even group), your HPS is almost always better with WS than HS both as you have seen with my spirit build (high +boon and higher heal) and with a no boon/minimal healing power build.

And, HS really starts to fall apart when you take into account the way it pulses regeneration versus other regenerations which once activated create a much longer single duration (so you can move around). The numbers in all the equations above assume you actually get all the pulses of regeneration from the water field. Good luck with that. The reality is that HS is a much lower regeneration than it promises in most play modes.

As a ranger, you always have a second group or self regeneration boon option.

HS is great when:
1) You need to have 2 pets of which one is not the fern hound
2) You have obscene healing power and boon and are playing in a melee train, stack on commander type fight
3) You are playing stack on commander type or PvE and will play in the water and splash heals with blasts, whirls, leaps etc.
4) You need lots of condition removal.

WS really is a great heal ESPECIALLY if you do the traditional Spirit Ranger new build of 30 in nature with Nature’s Voice as your group regen.

REALITY:
Here are the Heals You Can Pack with WS as your heal:
1)4256 Self/Pet Heal on WS (Every 25 Seconds) 170 HPS versus 200 HPS from HS
2) 1930 Group Heal on Aqua Surge (Every 25 Seconds) 77.2 HPS
3) 901 Passive Heal that is NOT a regen (Every 10-12 seconds) Let’s call it 75 HPS

So on the Burst v Burst it is 247 HPS for WS versus 200 HPS for the burst of HS (again using my 1107 Healing power, +60 boon duration).

Now in terms of TOTAL NON-REGEN HPS I have 322 HPS versus 200 HPS. That is huge, IF YOU CAN MATCH THE REGEN SOME OTHER WAY. Remember, regeneration boons stack

Regeneration Choices:

3a) Nature’s Voice 4334 on 16 seconds. 271 HPS Vs 272 HPS BUT, I no team member has to sit in the water field!!!!! That is the huge benefit. Likewise, this heal is actually permanently up. HS has 24 seconds of regen every 30 seconds.

Totally equal. No reason you should take HS except for combos and conditions if taking nature’s voice too.

3b) Use the Fern Hound for 1300 on 10 seconds or 130 HPS.

Now I have the 322 HPS (initial heal + burst group heal + passive on hit) + 130 (hound) for 452 HPS. Now, in a longer fight you have a cooldown with no regen we haven’t accounted for and you could say the HPS in a 25 second fight would be 52 vs 130. So you go from 452 to 357.

HS has 200 HPS (for the burst) + 277 HPS (for FULL duration of the 24 second sit in field regen). 477 HPS. Again, this is which +boon of 60% and 1107 healing power.

In a short fight, I do almost equal with hound and WS than with HS with benefits of not having to stand around in the water (or having group members). The healing is MUCH faster especially the difference in the initial burst too.

In a long fight, HS is only 25% more healing and that is assuming you stay in the field (not counting combos or conditions obviously).

The other thing that makes me personally love WS is that you get “on heal” procs much faster:
1) On activation
2) On active effect
3) On death if you trait nature’s vengeance vs nature’s voice (which is why we went thru the hound too)

I use runes and 1 trait that benefit:
1. Vigorous Renewal DOES go AE for 8 seconds on my build every “on heal proc”
2. 4 Runes of Altruism give 14 seconds of 3 stacks of might. The way this really works is that you summon when your group is taking a little damage then pop the first heal. You give them 6 stacks of might plus 1930 heal or 2 if your pet dies and you traited nature’s vengeance.

That to me is worth more than the condition removal. (NV also heals spirits)))))

Next up. What About builds with almost no heal/boon given the way regeneration really works?

WHAT ABOUT IF YOU DON’T ALREADY HAVE A REGEN BOON UP?

The key is the timeline of healing versus heal per second. In other words, 2k heal which occurs immediately may be more valuable than 4k heal over 10 seconds.

Likewise, to get the value of a regen in a water field, you have to be in the water field. On the other hand, to get the value of the regen from say nature’s voice, you simply need to be in the 360 range at the time of activation and continue to have it until it runs out (in my case 16 seconds later).

JUST EVALUATING BURST:

Now, I will use the definition of “burst” to include both the Water Spirit’s initial ranger/pet heal PLUS the aqua surge versus the initial ranger-pet heal of healing spring. The reason is sort of obvious. It happens quickly and is not a regen that will not add potency if you already have a strong/er regen.

Based on that, the burst of HS is actually about 10% lower than the burst on
That is about 10% more healing on the “burst” than what I get with HS. Ok, only 10% for all the condition removals etc. Seems wasteful.

Well, yes, if it is for the ranger and pet you would look at Heal as One that gives me 7367 burst or Troll Ugent that give me 9840 over 10 seconds. Again, that would do no one on my team any good just me and my pet.

Troll Ugent is not going to use the regeneration boon either (which is why it gets no benefit from +boon duration).

BUT I WANTED TO HEAL THE GROUP!

So, point #1: When you roam alone, WS is not ideal.

So, now you have the group heal+condition removal of HS versus the instant heal but no condition removal of WS.

WS tends to be better IMHO when:
1) You have a good regen lik NV with high heal and high boon,
2) You have basically no +boon or healing power so the fern hound is equalish
3) You have mediocre +boon and healing power and are willing to use a fern hound to bridge part of the regen gap from HS.

BIG WEAKNESS OF HS OVER OTHER SOURCES OF REGEN:
1) HS pulses out its regeneration. Other’s provide it on activation and then you retain it even if you move far away.
2) HS often loses much of its potential healing by people moving in and out of it getting some of the ticks but not all. (Some situations like PvE stacking this is no big deal).

Let’s say we have NO other source of regen. HS if you only got one pulse with my stats (see above ) would be 4 seconds at 272 or 1088. 1930 v 1088. The lower your +boon or healing power the bigger the disparity between the healing you give a group from WS burst and your getting only one pulse of HS.

Pt3 How Reality Looks

Going to bet a virtual donut that Chrispy will read this and say “oh that is when Water Spirit” kicks serious kitten and I never thought about that. Guessing we will have a fair but vigorous debate on some of the other times I would use WS, but not this one.

IF YOU HAVE A SOLID REGENERATION BOON UP LIKE NATURE’S VOICE, WS Is the Obvious Way to Heal A Group.

Remember, regeneration stacks not potency but duration. Assuming, you don’t need 30+ seconds of regeneration per heal/shout activation you can start to see where WS plays very well.

THE PASSIVE of WS IS NOT A REGEN EITHER. It is an “on hit ability”. Remember that. it will be critical later as we look at our analysis. So, it becomes 90 HPS in addition to the 272 (on my build below). NV and HS have almost identical regens for a group in HPS. NV tends to be perma up for spirit rangers.

Just for completion, Signet of the Wild does not use the regeneration boon either so you can have SOTW.

MY BUILD AND NUMBERS TO MAKE LIFE EASIER FOR THE COMPARISION (pretty standard settler/apoth build). I run a 0/0/30/30/10 build as I like mighty swap. I do know a lot of folks putting the 10 pts into marksmanship to get 50% greater conditions. We can have that discussion later.

I have 1107 heal which comes from apoth/settler gear and 10 in beast. My boon duration is 60% which is 30 from 30pts in nature and 30% from runes (4 altruism and 2 water). The rune set, I think is better than getting to 75% boon duration because each “on heal” you give allies and self 3 stacks of might on a good duration.

Let me lay out the heals for each ability:

Ok, my HS heals for:
5997 (Heal for pet and I)
6531 (Regen on 24 seconds) That is 272 per second (and tested it actually does within 3 pts every green tick).

My Water Spirit does:
4256 Initial
1930 (standard group heal)
902 (70% heal on hit with 10 second cool down).

Nature’s Voice is 4334 on 16 seconds. This is 270 hps. It ticks almost identically to HS. NV and HS effect the same number of targets. With the setup I have, Nature’s Voice is permanently up as the boon duration makes the effect last longer than the cool down.
The most an ally gets (assuming same ally which is not always the case in WvW but is almost always the case in small team roam) is 4-6 HPS more from HS.

Fern Hound is a regeneration and provides 10 seconds. It is 132 ticks. HS is double that (roughly) and lasts longer (if the fight goes that ling in wvw or spvp that is unusual). The advantage is the hound only requires you to be present for the activation versus having several short duration pulses.

Key For Later: If I use Water Spirit and don’t take Nature’s Voice, I can still take the Fern Hound for 10 seconds of 132 healing for the group in addition to all the healing WS provides. Again, this is all about the fact that regeneration boons stack duration vs potency.

Healing power benefits both NV and HS so, if I am doing the math correctly without multiple respecs you would get the same ratio and NV and HS should stay relatively the same for regen.

The hound’s F2 does NOT benefit from the traits of the ranger. So if you have higher boon duration than my 60% or higher heal than my 1107 you will find the fern is far less than 1/2 the regen power per tick. On the other hand, you may find that you have far less heal or +boon, (lots of builds don’t focus on boon/heal), in which case that fern will be significantly closer to the HPS of each tick of HS. HS is 130 hps with no +boon or heal. Well that is basically what the fern hound is. Sure, you have 8 seconds more of healing (but that is the only benefit other than condition removal) for it vs another heal.

Signet of the Wild (I don’t use it) would be 130 (but the green tag says 134 so you pick) and ALSO DOES NOT apply the regeneration boon. It will stack with a regeneration boon and even stack with the heal on hit from the passive of Water Spirit.

Again, the key is that regeneration if it is a regeneration boon (fern hound, nature’s voice, and healing spring) stack duration not potency. My nature’s voice is permanent (provided I refresh it) and does HPS within a point or two of HS. If you have no real boon or heal, that darn fern hound is pretty appealing as your regeneration source for the group.

In short, if you already have a regeneration boon that is relatively high HPS ticks, HS loses a lot of its healing impact. In the case of having nature’s voice, you don’t want HS UNLESS you want the condition removal. You could want more healing on the ranger and not the group, in which case both heal as one and troll ugent are more healing for the ranger and pet. The difference is as simple as “all at one but smaller heal” versus “10 seconds but bigger heal”. There are times when heal over time isn’t as valuable as a burst.

In pt2 we look at the heal without Nature’s Voice

It is a tough skill to balance.
I love it as is for a couple reasons (other reasons I hate it):
1. Lots of attacks to trigger “on hit effects”
2. Substantial vulnerability

If I had to choose, I would pick more burst damage though.
But it works to get vulnerability, it is great for RAO might stacking, etc.

It is a pain but you start to learn how to use the F2 skills and how to avoid getting them on cooldown. The biggest problem is that they tend to work if you prepare to use them but less so in an immediate reaction time.

Stupid things like only hitting F2 once versus more than once make a lot of difference or stopping for a second so the pet isn’t moving and then buffing (e.g. stalker might) versus trying to buff while running.

Numbers are wrong.
WS will heal just about as often as HS.
WS’s aqua heal increases with healing power.

WS is burst with a bigger initial heal and a bigger initial burst for allies.
Regen takes time and takes staying in the field.

WS is easy to use if you only summon it when you are first going to battle.
It helps if you have regen that will heal the spirit too.
You often WANT the spirit to die. Big burst with then only 20 seconds to resummons and 25 seconds with the activations. So great in a Lord room fight.

WS gives far more “on heal” activations for the beginning of a fight (vigorous renewal and might stacks with runes of altruism) for allies.

HS wins when you can stack, your allies stay in the field, you can burst, you can live with more heal over time than burst.

WS wins when you are spread out fighting or when you are going to move to keep up with the enemy.

WS works better when you play ranged weapons (even axe) and stay a little behind then rush up. Cleaves and melee stacking kills spirits. You want them to have to specifically target you for AE or melee to kill the WS.

Both are great. WS just is unusual. People try to run in as a perma up pet versus just when you need it. People forget that they want to kill the pet, that is damage you are not having your team take (assume you play backline as explained above). Don’t play melee weapons with Spirits. Bad policy because of cleaves etc. Make the enemy have to target JUST you. Run up to deliver the heal then back to range.
The regen/ on hit passive on WS works VERY nicely in a mobile fight as it has 1000 distance and traited it tends to always be in range.

Quick changes:
1. Runes of altruism to might stack allies 4 altruism/2 water. You don’t need the extra 15% BOON. That is +6 might stacks (3 upfront and 3 more when you use first heal).
2. Remember WS activates “on heal” procs at activation, use of active and death (if you trait that too). It also helps allies.
3. Sigils of battle for +3 might stacks (might stacking is your offense).
4. Vigorous renewal is your 10 pt skill for WS because it will last 8-9 seconds and you can use it on spirit summon and active ability
5. Take stalker for +5 might stacks for you and allies.
6. Leverage fact that any might YOU get which your pet also gets (e.g. most might stacking) gives the pet an extra stack with nature 15 fortifying bond. 25 stack pets hit hard!!!!!
7. Move 10 from Marksmanship to 10 in NM. For mighty swap. +3 might stacks.
8. Use warhorn always if running RAO. Your 16 strike hunter’s call should keep pet at 25 might stacks (with all the other stacks you provide) even in a long fight.
9. Consider fern hound with jungle stalker. Fern hound has a great AE regen which works with Nature’s call and the WS passive. You can get over 400 hps on allies.
10. Swap nature’s voice with nature’s vengeance frequently depending on type of fight.
11. Take Spirit of Sun to allow party to burn enemy. Signet of the wild is overkill and really only applies to you and pet. You should be backline and your hps regen is amazing already.
12. If solo, I would take Spirit of the Sun myself, but you could also consider signet of renewal for the condition removal.
13. Consider bear for condition removal.

You will want to mix and match pets and ultilities tied to the fight. I only really would swap out one trait (nature’s voice vs nature’s vengeance depending on the situation and go back and forth several times a night).

Good luck!

You should have:
18-21 might stacks for you.
More than max the pet
Provide up to 15 for allies done right.

Remember we have good traits (on pet swap and on heal) that give us lots of regen.
Pet swap vigor is AE.

Not worried.

Works great on single targets. Fun to roam with especially more zerker like which I still love as a build

I like spider/hyena.
Sometimes catching up to the enemy is a pain and the spider can nail them easier.

New predator instinct shouldn’t be missed now that it is a full 10 sec cripple and now at 50% health. Yeah, I would probably run this a bit more 10/30/30. I should be at peak strength (good luck hitting me if I get this pulled off) more often than not so I would get 10% damage vs the 5% GS damage trait you pull in nature.

The other is 10 pts in BM and get the F2 reduction skill. You can get some fast immobilizes with owls, drakehounds etc. The key seems to be to lock them down with an overwhelming number of immobilizes

The automatic heal even states it heals your pet and absolutely it does.

In zergs, it is a hoot to run in THEN cast the spirit AS YOU RUN IN. Blast the big heal. Wait for it. . . pet dies and you just did 2 rather big heals.

Now it gets fun. The pet only is on cool down for 20 seconds after it bites the dust.

All this afternoon, I was trying to keep the spirit alive. Works even better when you kill it

On yeah, with runes of altruism, that also stacks might on your zerg crew very nicely. Lots of “on heal” procs for the group. Remember, the runes DO have an ICD of 10 seconds so you generally only get 6 stacks of might at a time.

On, and if you ever wondered about group almost permanent endurance at 100% without natural vigor being 50%? Learn how to kill the spirit I tell you. Never fear all you faint hearted! You just need a water spirit and vigorous renewal.

In addition, to heal and might bombing your zerg taking pressure, you can endurance bomb them too. Of course, if you get in combat and the pet does not die, then it isn’t nearly as fast (but still faster than healing spring). There is no internal cool down for vigorous renewal (I guess they figure you can only use a heal skill once every 20 secs).

Well, you have to trait 30 in nature to do that Prysin. It can work if you cast, run in and heal then let the spirit die for a second heal. 20 seconds later (time to reset the spirit) you can go for it again.

There are 3 effects.

1) Passive 35/70% on hit heal for 810 (untraited) to about 925 (high heal)
2) A ranger and pet heal on 25 sec ICD
3) A group heal on 25 sec ICD. You and your pet can count as 2 of the 5 allies.

It also heals your spirits.