Guild Wars 2

Loco.4561:

I’m a full exotic Elementalist, D/D Bunker type build, I spend a lot of time solo roaming, finding good 1v1’s, 2v1’s etc…I’ve done nothing but WvW since beta and consider myself an above average player.

I just spent a good few hours duelling a Mesmer in WvW and I could not beat this player. I also was duelling a warrior who I could beat, I have beaten other Mesmer’s before in 1v1’s (not very good players I might add) and thieves, guardians, rangers, even some players together but I could not beat this Mesmer.

That last 2 fights lasted over 10 minutes each, eventually this Mesmer just wears me down, using portals, phase retreat, kiting, blink etc… Now remember I’m a bunker build and this Mesmer outlasted me every single time, so I asked them what gear they were wearing and he’s in rares with NO runes and terrible jewellery.

Now either Mesmer’s are OP or Elementalists, even bunker Ele’s are just horribly, woefully underpowered. Since a Mesmer in poor gear can beat me repeatedly no matter what I tried.

It seems to me that Moa is need of tweaking, that ability is just an Iwin button if someone knows what they are doing. The cooldowns on off-hand pistol daze need to be increased along with the cooldown on phase-retreat. Considering I’m specced for CC and running with 3 cantrips, this Mesmer was CC’ing me more often and frequently than I could him. It didn’t help that my Ride the Lightning kept on rooting me to the ground and my magnetic grasp kept missing, trying to pin this Mesmer down was an impossible task.

So I ask this Mesmer what other profession’s can beat him 1v1 and he say’s…another Mesmer, surely that’s an indication that the profession might just be a wee bit OP if the only profession that can beat a Mesmer is another Mesmer.

Yes I’m butthurt, but I would still like to know if Mesmer is just the best 1v1 profession and I was onto a loser anyway or Ele’s are that hideously underpowered that I wouldn’t win because my profession stinks

Burst spec’d D/D elementalists do a fair job of eating Mesmers alive (especially if the elementalist is on the offensive/gets the first attack).

TheRamosOnline.2670:

It’s bad and you should feel bad.
I mean it’s good for the block and the Phantasm, but when stood next to Temporal Curtain, The Priestage, iDuelist and Magic Bullet it’s just bad. Why would you want a single block (only blocks one attack, so the first strike with Hundred Blade/Pistol Whip and Unload) or a Phantasm that doesn’t apply a worthy secondary effect?
(iDuelist bleeds every time it crits, and it attacks about 10 times in one ‘attack’, iWarden provides spell deflection as well as secondary effects when in Combo Fields).

YOUR SET UP IS BAD AND YOU SHOULD FEEL BAD!
-decoys away-

The why is simple. Backstab thieves!!! If slotted to gain retailiation on block, and timed properly, it is a sweet backstab thief counter. Thief begins skill to steath on hit (forget the name). Thief uses steal from range. Throw up block. Stealth skill is blocked. Next thief backstabs (unless he has a really fast reaction time as his skills are likely queued), which is reflected. In all likelyhood the mesmer has a higher armor and health rating, as well as his main hand damage after this. Thief melts.

Warning: good thief players to not fall for this. This is for the masses of SPvP gank thieves.

“What do you mean we have to kite this guy?”

Archaon.6245:

just add a debuff like in gw1 for leavers…they cannot go in pvp again for…15…30 mins, we already had solutions i really can’t understand why they removed things that worked good in gw

Agreed. Just because you are losing that is no excuse for twisting the game for the other players, or causing new people queing to enter a match you have already most certainly lost.

Khyras.8021:

Psychrome.9281:

as stated the retaliation is on the phantasms not the mesmer him self. as a fellow ranger i try very hard to make sure i am hitting the actual mesmer since any number of bad things can happen when you kill an illusion.

Dude i am hitting mesmer ( with sword because shortbow dmage is crap-350 auto attack dmg with 2304 power lol, and sword auto attack is 600+).I cant kindly ask him to move away from his clones.Ans why i shouldnt be able to hit clones? I should stand there and let them dps me to oblivion?That is a good tactic actually next time i meet mesmer 1vs 1 i will just run or let him kill me that would be less frustrating i think.

You just explained why you get steamrolled. Meleeing a Mesmer with a ranger, and killing clones with melee weapons. Tisk, tisk.

Improvement eminent!!!

Khyras.8021:

Aleth.9630:

You are dumb if you think you could achieve anything with an attitude like that.
The only reasonable way mesmers can get Retaliation is from Chaos Storm, which last for like 3s per tick.

If you let the mesmer camp in his Chaos Storm and keep hitting them while that short Retal is up, you’re the one who needs to “l2p”. And you know, there are skills and traits which remove boons as well. Maybe your build was just not made for that fight if it lasted for 5min to begin with.

In tpvp you fight for point control.Ofc he is bloody camping wtf im supposed to do kite him?What skill or trait for ranger removes boons?Am i supposed to enter every match prepared for mesmers only? Im toughness/power traited i cant use sigil remove boon on crit effectively.Only option i have is to dps him down before his clones kill me i dont have time to dance around him when i see his ret buff up.You think ranger can win war of attrition against mesmer? Just kitten and gtfo.

Playing the devils advocate here. Ranger is one of the few, if not the only class, that defeats my mesmer 75+ percent of the time.

Aleth.9630:

You are dumb if you think you could achieve anything with an attitude like that.
The only reasonable way mesmers can get Retaliation is from Chaos Storm, which last for like 3s per tick.

If you let the mesmer camp in his Chaos Storm and keep hitting them while that short Retal is up, you’re the one who needs to “l2p”. And you know, there are skills and traits which remove boons as well. Maybe your build was just not made for that fight if it lasted for 5min to begin with.

There is a trait that causes retaliation on block. I use it liberally on my mesmer and it melts thieves. Mesmers have many viable play builds, I think this guy is just shocked because he is so used to seeing the cookie cutter mold.

When gearing and speccing yourself, keep in mind that when you are not alive in sPvP, you are hurting your team. Don’t devalue health and toughness under damage potential. This is a common mistake by most new PvP players in mmo’s. Damage over the entire match matters much more then damage over 5 seconds.

How about a purchase confirmation box for karma purchases?

even when spelled correctly, lol

“god” + “amoung” = kittenound

Try out the focus for 5 or 10 levels. I hated it at first, but after forcing myself to practice with it, it is awesome. The Phantasm is great in PvE. The speed line can be collapsed upon itself to move and knock down opponents. I like to phase jump stun mobs right before the phantasms damage cycle to ensure they take all of his damage.

If you really start to like it, it becomes a fairly strong anti ranged weapon with the proper timing and specs.

Mogar.9216:

spoonfoy.7315:

Zyrusticae.7245:

You’re all wrong.

The game should be balanced at all ranges.

unfortunately sir, that is literally impossible. skill, will ALWAYS be the deciding factor in who wins a fight. even if there was only 1 ability in the game, that did 100 damage flat everytime, the best dodge rollers and LoS’ers would win. then people would cry to remove dodge rolling and make games in one big open room so theres no LoS, and they could get just as many kills as “top tier” players just by spamming their only skill and targeting people at random.

the top 5% want the same thing that ANet wants, a highly competitive game balanced at TOP TIER play, so that this game can grow into an eSport. people that die from standing in red circles and not stunbreaking/dodge rolling will never have a voice in that environment.

The problem with that is . Who is going to care if there are only 1 server and 1k people playing GW2? Wouldn’t it be better for everyone to have 1 mil player base playing a slightly less perfect game than to have 1 thousand player playing a perfect pvp game? The problem with balancing for top 5% is when you have 1 mil players the 50k is the top 5% when your player base drop to 50k , the 5% is now only the top 2.5k. Skill is relative , the top tier today at 1 mil is the skilless newb once all the casuals quit. It becomes a downward spiral that I have seen too many times before.

If just a couple of highly skilled players make themselves common in the SPvP, TPvp areas, hundreds, even thousands will run away crying for a nerf bat if classes were balanced not considering the epitomy of game play.

As time progresses, more and more people will become part of the skilled elite. Not using the top end of progress as a model for balance could ultimately drive away the average player and leave the game as a 2 or 3 class bandwagon for a few hundred people.

The structured pvp in this game is designed as a skill game, not a gear grind or hang out with your friends area. That was the design of PvE and WvWvW. I for one hope this will never change. Speaking as a average to poor player, I welcome the skill challenge.

If you played warhammer online recently, and you were not someone who spent the time grinding to 100 rr (personally I am an alt junky), you will understand my next statement. When I was around rr 80 on a couple of my toons, they decided to implement a boost system for lower level players. On my Black Orc (constantly complained about as being on of the worst/weakest classes in the game) I went from thinking I was one of the worst players around to feeling like a kittenong insects. I was nearly unbeatable 1v1 or even 2v1. That is when I had an epihony…wow, my skill is really not sub par, in fact…I don’t think I have ever played an mmo where skill actually mattered 90% of the time.

Then came GW2

Reveyah.7923:

Well now its a toss up between thief and elementalist, I really like all the stuff an elementalist can do, but i really don’t like robes could never see my self wearing them, Just going to try them both out then, and see which I like more TY for the help everyone.

Thief is the big FOTM class. If you do not want to see many other people in matches playing your same class, avoid it.

Mesmer is a very complicated class in PvE (your really have to get good at positioning, dodging, and comboing quickly), but in PvP there are several button mashing specs that are possible and powerful.

Elementalists (and engineers I hear, but have no personal experience) have more skills available to them at all times then other classes. (now speaking only for elementalists from personal experience) Elementalists are incredible versatilie and are a very powerful class with limited concurrently available combination abilities, so they easily fall into pre-ordained key click combinations. If one can avoid a pre-determined routine, they shine as one of the most influential and arguably most power per survivability point class in the game.

Necros are just cool. They have a multitude of spec paths to take that all have merit. I am not fond of pet classes, so I play a “support/kick you butt when my form change abilities are off cooldown” build.

Guardian pushes your generic tank arctype.

Warriors…don’t really have much to say. I have never tried them, but there are tons of cookie cutter heavy armor dps warriors around, and you rarely see varied attack methods.

I have never tried a ranger, so sorry, can not help here.

Fellknight.4820:

First off I’m not asking for a nerf or complaining that I get killed by thieves over and over.

I’m just looking for some clarity here, I do not understand why one class would be:

The fastest class in the game, not sprinting but steady running(um isn’t that a Ranger’s job)

Why they have 3x more invis abilities than the mesmer

Why they have more Burst Damage than any other class in the game, the guardian and elementalist have the same HP pool and far less dmg. And no Bunker build beats invis for survivability.

and finally

Why any class would be given HIGH DMG spammable teleport onto target abilities?

This game has such innovative and ground breaking pvp idea’s and here’s this one TERRIBLE CLASS DESIGN destroying the enjoyment of every other class.

Most of all I don’t understand why the DEV’s don’t see this as a problem or why they would ever implement a class so broken. I do not think a nerf could fix this problem without basically bringing the class back to the drawing board. It would honestly be better for the game logevity over-all if this class was deleted.

@ the Origonal Poster (responses in order of questions)

Rangers have the longest range of any class in the game. Giving them the fastest run speed would amount to a broken OP class beyond anything this game has ever seen.

Mesmer is not the primary stealth class of this game. Mesmers have many tools to deal with situations, stealth is a secondary option.

Traditionally the Thief (or Witch Elf, or Rogue, or Thief, or…) are the highest single target dps class in mmos. This is no surprise. As for survivability, they are not even close to on par with Guardians or Elementals.

I am assuming you are referring to Heartseeker. This is a counter to the many abilities classes have to escape/repel you. If a thief did not have gap closers, most classes in this game would easily render them useless.

The development team has obviously seen some flaws in the initial design of the thief. Their abilities are being modified (frequently nerfed) in every major patch.

I have been, for the duration of this game, on the surpress thief power bandwagon. That being said, I could not resist responding to a post like this as I disagreed with pretty much every point.

Galandil.9641:

Ok, the forum is clogged with alot of whines about BS overpowered, “he killed me pressing 2 buttons”, etc.

But, at least 99% of the times, these whines relies on the actual skill that made the damage, and never in understanding what could be the problem that particular skill… if ever there was a problem with a particular skill.

Imo, the problem is NOT in the burst dmg of BS (or any other single skill), but is in how are handled the “+X% on damage” boosts given by skills/traits.

Let’s take this simple build for example: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fYAQJAoYlUmKOHfS6E/5Ex2jdKUe6VgsaPoZLhJA;ToAg0CnowxgjAHLOOck4MKYSA

DO NOT COMMENT ABOUT THE BUILD, I took it just to make the example.

Regarding the “+X% damage”, we have:

- Signet of Sup Force: +5% damage;
- Dagger Training: +5% damage;
- Exposed Weakness: +10% dmg if target is under a condition;
- First Strikes: +10% dmg if ini is 6 or higher;
- Executioner: +20% dmg if target has <50% of total HPs;
- Assassin Signet: +50% if activated.

Now, one would think that all these damage modifiers would add up, and then they’d be applied to the actual “base dmg” (i.e. Power*Weapon Damage*Skill Coefficient/Armor) so, always following the example, we’d get a total of +110% dmg if all are active at the same time. That one, however, would be completely wrong!

The way that game uses these dmg modifiers is this: all “fixed” modifiers are summed up (in our case, only Dagger Training and Sigil of Sup Force, +10%), then all the other conditional modifiers are applied multiplicating every modifier with the others. In our example, we would get: 1.1*1.1*1.1*1.2*1.5=2.3958 -> +139.58%, almost 30% more than the “summed up” modifiers.

Of course, this effect is amplified in case we inflict a crit. The Crit Dmg of this build is 38, so a critical multiplies the actual damage by 1.88:

- In the first case, with +110% damage, we’d get 2.1*1.88=3.948 -> +294.8% total modifier to the base dmg;
- In the second case, with +139.58% dmg, we’d get 2.3958*1.88=4.504104 -> +350.5% total modifier to base dmg.

If a player uses BS, with Power at 2140 and Wpn Dmg 981 (the max for dagger), against a target with 2200 Armor, his base damage would be 2140*981*2.405/2200 = 2295.

In the 1st case, he’d get a total dmg of 2295 * 2.1 = 4820, with crit 9062.
In the 2nd case, he’d get 2295 * 2.3958 = 5498, with crit 10336 (14% more than the 1st case).

If we put in the tray even C&D, we have 2140*981*1.624/2200 = 1550 for base dmg. Then:
1) 1550 * 2.1 = 3255, with crit 6119;
2) 1550 * 2.3958 = 3713, with crit 6980.

And don’t forget that C&D applies 3 stack of Vuln., which are included (summed) to the base +10% for Dagger Training and Sup Sigil of Force, so we get a dmg modifier of 1.13*1.1*1.1*1.2*1.5 = 2.46114 (so, you see, that +3% from Vulnerability has become a +6.534% coupled to the other modifiers!), so BS now inflicts:

1) 2295 * 2.13 = 4888, with crit 9190;
2) 2295 * 2.46114 = 5648, with crit 10618.

The grand total from these 2 skills is:

1) 15309
2) 17598 (and this is how now the dmg mods work)

Someone could say that these figures are too high the same, and I can, to a certain degree, agree with him, but the problem about this combo is NOT in Backstab, but in the too high SC of C&D (seriously, a skill that stealths and inflicts 3 stacks of Vuln has a SC of 1.624?).

So, imo, these are the solutions atm:

1) All dmg modifiers should add up no matter what, and then they’d be applied to the base damage. This would give us two things: a) less damage overall from stacking modifiers and b) less headache when studying builds.
2) Tone down the SC of C&D, and bring up again the SCs of the other weapons which, atm, are laughable, damage inflicted wise, to the Daggers (both main and off hand).

Well done sir. Thank you for the lesson.

I had an enemy thief reply after our first encounter “op mesmer” last night.

I was playing really poorly (mind not in the game). This thief and I saw each other from a great distance. He was standing on a point next to a ranger. I stopped moving and just stared at him for a few seconds. He approached and then did his Steal jump. Immediately after the steal landed I pressed Block (and I am specced so that a successful block grants retailiation). He melted.

“op mesmer” flashed on my screen.

I started laughing out loud, amazed at how easy of a kill he assumed I would be. I continued laughing at the fact that a simple press of Block completely changed my perspective on combating thieves. I laughed so long that his Ranger buddy pewpewed me down.

If you are fighting a glass cannon melee thief, and he does not even bother to sneak up behind you, something as simple as block will render him useless. After this experience, I began to keep my melee weapons on whilst on points solo since I now know how to avoid insta-stealth gibs…and it worked.

GS/ sword sword btw (although I prefer staff over GS and didn’t have to use the GS against him).

My advice at low levels (and still at high levels)…don’t be afraid to melee. Mesmers have some really nice close range weapons the do a good job of damage absorbsion.

I believe Mesmer to be a solid class WvWvW and SPvP. Our defensive and manuverablity options are top notch. I suspect the OP is running a Power/Precision build or clone/phantasm utilities, which while viable are not as long term match oriented.

@TheRamosOnline: a couple of our phantasms had their cooldown time increased by 5 seconds, Chaos Armor had its cooldown time reduced by 5 seconds.

@Quex Fehftir: No doubts man. It is a touch on the scarey side isn’t it?

yellow stang.5618:

At level 35 I did my first dungeon last night. Sort of a disaster. :-) 3 friends plus one random guy, all first-timers, went in. Within 10 minutes, one of my friends lost his connection and never came back. So we restarted with a 2nd random guy. After almost an hour, a couple in the group were getting frustrated, plus it was after midnight, and decided they had had enough.

I think we would have finished. Not sure how long it would have taken. Each mob took us several attempts, and we were all spending a lot of silver repairing our armor.

I’m sure I’m partly to blame. I went with a Staff and Phantasm-heavy shatter build, using Phantasmal Defender and Phantasmal Disenchanter in the Utility slots, along with Decoy. The elite was Moa Morph.

One group that gave us a lot of trouble was an Elementalist, Ranger, and Warrior. The Elementalist especially killed us with massive damage, while the Ranger trapped and poisoned us to death. After like 5 attempts we finally were able to drop the Ele and beat the mob, but that battle alone took 15 minutes or so…

So rethinking it now, I’m wondering if I’d have been more help to the group using Time Warp and Feedback? I think the Ele was using Arcane Blast, but not sure… Could Feedback cause an Ele (or Ranger) to kill themself? And is Time Warp a better dungeon elite than Moa Morph?

I run a very different utility setup in dungeons. When I enter a dungeon, I assume (falsely sometimes) that the other classes will bring the pewpew and I am there as a buff bot.

For utilities (especially in AC where the ranger type enemy is strong) I always slot feedback. This skill is incredible for reducing incoming damage to the party and doing a good share of damage to the enemy.

I usually slot null field as any cripple or condition style enemy can be a pain. This is a ranged skill so it can be placed upon whomever needs it.

The third utility slot roams around a lot for me in dungeons. I typically reserve it for a self defensive ability such as Decoy, Mimic, or veil.

The elite skill I prefer is Time Warp. Rarely do I end up using it on myself, but I use it often.

For weapons I generally go Sword + sword or focus (sword if I am worried about personal defence, focus if I want a strong barely mobile phantasm) and Staff for buff/debuff and defence.

ChaosStar.3162:

Mimic has its niche, such as reflecting Kill Shot, but that niche is so small you’d only ever bring if you knew you were 1v1ing a rifle warrior :| I don’t really understand how Anet ever thought this skill was remotely good. Are we missing something? Is the tooltip missing information about a functionality that makes this skill insane? So far I’ve only really used it to make some fun screenshots with its shield-like animation.

Indeed the tool tip is missing something. I overlooked this ability for a long time because of that fact. Once you absord a ranged attack, this ability becomes a complete sheild to all hostile abilities for the remainder of the channeling. You are also mobile while channeling.

I believe (although I have still not proven this to my satisfaction) that many more skills then one would assume are considered ranged. My current theory is that it is based on skill range (anything greater then 120 or 240 maybe) therefore traits that increase skill range also change what skills cause retaliation and the initializing of the block effect.

I would love if someone could give me the specifics of what “ranged attack” means for this skill.

Mantras are my least favorite.

I also do not get much mileage out of the clone/phantasm utilities except underwater (and they are a huge part of my underwater strategies).

The rez skill, I do not think I have ever even tried it so no comment.

I find solid uses for most of the other utilities. In fact, I like so many of them that I swap out 1 or 2 (for my standard pve or SPvP setups) on a near weekly basis.

I am fond of thief and elementalist in pvp. In addition, i enjoy necromancer and mesmer.

As far as complicated battle tactics and skill rotations, I have to agree with some previous posters. Not only is button spamming effective for a thief, so many of their abilities are combo finishers (almost every melee attack if I remember correctly) that they do not even have to take that into account for decision making.

Necro, Mesmer, and Elementalist, my abilities, position, and ability timings are heavily regulated by combo fields and finishers. When playing a thief, such nuances of battle never even cross my mind.

This is not to say every aspect of Thief is just single button spamming. As someone else mentioned, to play and effective and survivable backstab thief takes skill, patience and cunning.

Heartseeker (the most hated ability by my Mesmer) and Pistol Whip would be the greatest offenders (and yea, I know .5 sec stun, .75 sec cast…wow, a whole .25 seconds to react to an ability that can be used over and over again and interrupt my casting while leaving me immobile). Now my first run at thief SPvP, i had both of those abilities by weapon swap…talk about spam fest and top kills most matches.

On the flip side, these abilities seem to have little to no effect on Necros (and several other tanky classes/specs I am sure), so I do not know whether a toning down of Heartseeker is on order.

prodigy.1023:

alanis.6094:

@prodigy

He’s not the only one here that thinks all the kids here are overreacting.

Leave those kids alone and let’s go back to the topic. Do you deny that in one patch we got pretty much all of our weapon setups nerfed? Do you deny that c/ds of phantasms are for all practical purposes doubled? Do you deny that staff is ruined to the point where it’s just a waste of a gear slot?

Come on. I’ve played several MMOs and I’ve seen my share of nerfs. Serious, painful nerfs. But this… this isn’t even funny. Why don’t they just /delete the class then?

I have to agree with Alanis here.

As for the paragraph of questions:

Do you deny that in one patch we got pretty much all of our weapon setups nerfed?
No, but it was needed and it was not severe.

Do you deny that c/ds of phantasms are for all practical purposes doubled?
Yes, this is just silly.

Do you deny that staff is ruined to the point where it’s just a waste of a gear slot?
I am still giggling about this one. Yes, I deny that. Staff is an incredible weapon with loads of utility.

Why don’t they just /delete the class then?
Because it a great class that many enjoy. Would a better option not be for you to just roll another toon?

Mesmers, Theives and elelmentalists all needed toning down. Well done ANET. Well done.

red.2387:

I think my initial question was misinterpreted. I want to know why devs put these abilities in the game if they just intend to nerf them every time someone figures out a way to put them to good use.

Red, I think we are seeing a good old fashioned “wow shinney” moment. For the many of us who have played support roles in MMOs, we know, KNOW, in our heads that they are the most important players on the battlefield.

MMOs in general place too much emphasis on the healer (which by my logic is super OP in almost every game I have ever played). With this is mind, all other classes are generally played max dps, or max defense. This game takes that away as the “I am a god because I heal people so it is unfair for me to die” aspect so many people are beginning to realize that team support play dominates.

Take a crowd that did not understand that being top DPS or top damage absorbsion was a bane rather then a boon to their team, and you have a whole new breed emerging…those who work in synergy.

This synergy could not have been anticipated fully (though ANET did a good job at guessing) and as such, the swing of the game must be followed and adjusted according to player actions.

Selo.1250:

Nowhere did it say Elementalist is a support class.

“Elementalists are multi-faceted spellcasters that channel elemental forces, making fire, air, earth, and water do their bidding. What they lack in physical toughness, they make up in versatility and the ability to inflict massive damage in a single attack.
"

Nothing massive about Elementalist damage.

If ANet lied to us and makes elementalist into a support class, i want a class change.

Multi facited….versatility…. I am not sure, but I would guess those 2 statements are pretty much the definition of claiming a class to be a support class.

Common bud, all of us have played thieves (whether by design choice or frustration alt). A .5 second stun does not sound like much, but add to that the fact that you can do it 6 times in a row (dodge = 2 times in a row), and it is debilitating.

Does anyone else see a nerf to mimic on the horizon? I ignored it for a long time. Now I realize most abilities seem to fall into the “ranged” category. Add to that that after “absorbing” (aka being hit really hard and still taking the damage) the first ability it acts as a full shield with retaliation. I am not 100% sure, but I believe in my last WvWvW match it worked against 100 blades and just slaughtered the warrior.

Pistol Whip had a high damage output and was also a stun. When combined with an initiative regen build, it allowed far more stuns then classes have counters. Add to that the great ability of theives to close gaps and it made for a very frustrating opponent who may have only been spamming 2 or 3 abilities.

15% may have been harsh or may have been too little. Time will tell, and I am sure ANET has its ever present eye still focused on theives.

Preface: My main has been a mesmer since early access (just getting that out there).

Underwater Mantra trouble was crippling a range of builds (well done).

Phantasms were too strong in PvP when fully specced for them (well done).

Chaos storm duration increase was likely due to the ease at which combo finisher ethereals could be accomplished. I don’t know about the rest of you, but short of testing weapons and skill combos I rarely use, I almost never had to push my Chaos Armor button to have Chaos Armor. Add to that the combo of Chaos Storm and The Prestige and you are protecting a group of people on a regular basis. They reduced the cooldown of Chaos Armor. This screams to me that not having to cast this for the effect consistently was definitely on their mind with this adjustment.

If you want a real laugh, go to the elementalists forums. They are a crew of people under the belief that they are the weakest class in existence, yet are marked as over performing due to the fact that when played as a support class instead of dps (and it is amusing how many of them still think it is crazy if you spec low crit/low power) they are beef cakes in PvP.

Odrahn, 15.2k health for an elementalist in spvp is really low. 1.7k toughness is ok, but nothing to write home about. Those sort of glass cannon specs work really well in pve, but in pvp not so much. I finally put my elementalist to the spvp test today. 2.2k toughness, 20,000 health, 30/30/10 Water/Arcane/Earth build. I died 1 time in 3 matches.

Great Sword is a good AOE weapon in WvWvW. Staff is a good buff/debuff/combo field/defensive weapon.

Erto, coming out of Beta Weekend 3 i had a terrible time dealing with 100b. I was playing a Necro at the time. Do some google/youtube searches. There are video clips out there from the defenders perspective that explain the move, the setup, and more importantly walk you through the animations of all related abilities so you know exactly when to dodge, counter, stun, or run away.

After watching these, 100b warriors seem sub par when before hand that seemed insurmountable.

Combo fields are key to this game. Often times I cast combo fields into combat just to give my allies the finishers as they may amount to much more then anything I could have done myself.

Perhaps this is the concept that is causing some of the FOTM and OP/UP hype for many classes.

A staff wielding ELE has many ranged AOE combo field spells. A mesmer learns early in his PvE career to utilize combo fields for defense as 2 regular PvE mobs can kill him without the chaos armor combo finisher effect. Most thief abilities are combo finishers so much of the damage you see is a result of another class (whether intentionally or not) setting them up with a combo field. I am not so sure about other classes as I did not understand combo fields before playing the Mesmer (and I have only played an ELE and Theif since).

It took a while for me to understand, but not paying attention to, or knowing when to set up/use combos is roughly equivalent to playing 1/2 of your class.

I have SPvPed with a Necro at 14,000 health and 20,000+ health. The gear options are there. Higher health = lower damage. This trade off already exists.

Add steath “hard counters” to the game and the thief will be destroyed. Every MMO I have ever played has had a stealth class, and the forums were always full of stealth being god-mode propoganda. This is the damage absortion equivalent ability of the theif.

Mesmer…. Moa and some phantasm builds can be perceived as OP. Mesmer is my main, I do not play with Moa on my bar, and I do not spec for phantasms. Mobility/trickery/stealth are the damage absorbsion of this class. I have found, not using these OP or bugged vices, that many people just do not understand the mobility factor, and do not predict any moves beyond back step or roll. Those I fight that realize my mobility options are a thorn during the entire match.

AOEs…. This is perhaps the first game I have played that I did not find AOEs and Heals (and for the hatred of all that is stand still and spammy….Healing AOEs) to be overwhelmingly powerful. I hope the developers do not super charge ranged AOEs. Afterall, most melee abilities are already AOE based with limited splash range. I will never understand how people think AOEs are rare in this game.

Necro is an incredible team AOE support class. Why do we not hear constant complaints about them? Because they are doing their damage un-noticed while the person you focused on is being accredited for the damage.

Elementalists…. In a game with no true healer, there is an aweful lot of complaining about the weakness of this potential healing class. I know in most MMOs (with the exclusion of AOC), people are used to Healers being OP, impossible to kill 1v1, and required to compete in any size encounter, if their is not one on both sides the side lacking one loses. I am also aware that most of the masses think that to be acceptable and excepted. In a game that understands the fundamental flaw of expecting an archtype to be OP, Elementalists have a strong position once the expectation is gone that you can stand still and heal without threat of death.

100b warriors… I see them in pretty much every spvp match I have ever played. I can’t help be thinking about how many of these OP classes are considered OP because the losing team has a 100b warrior or 2, that once understood, can be all but ignored by the entire opposing team leaving it a 8v6 spank fest.

In all honesty, Rangers kick my butt all over the map on any of the 5 classes i have SPvPed with. Does this mean they are OP? No, it means I suck against them and need to level one to 30 and SPvP a couple dozen matches to understand whatever it is about them that I am just not comprehending.

Reading a recent Dev post, it appears that elementalists are suspected to be too good at healing/turtling at the moment. I cannot say that I agree with this, as I have only gotten to level 8 in the couple weeks I have had one, but the strength of their solo and group healing in comparison to other classes is one of the first things I noticed and yet had never read about.

Anyone else tired of being chased off classes by them being the OP flavor of the week? I leaned toward necro in beta…then I read all the Necro’s are op hype out there. I chose Mesmer when the game went live, remembering in Beta3 the forums seemed to deem it the weakest class. Then I made a Thief to learn how to counter them with my Mesmer. Then I made an elementalist reading it was a difficult under powered class…. Will it never end? Apparently we are all too powerful

I have about 30 games under my belt as necro, 15 as theif, 30 as mesmer, and a handful as most other classes (other then ranger…never tried that out). I would say in pvp moa is really annoying, necro is the best support/damage class, theif is a beast, mesmer is stupid hard to kill and guardian is the largest boon to any melee train.

That being said, a change to MOA is on the horizon, and having a 60+ mesmer on my account, that does not effect my pvp or pve in any way

Demonic Toys.7248:

I know, OP so right. Mesmoar is like Braveheart and Saving Private Ryan had baby, and baby raised in Sparta. So sick of getting MOAd, then time warp, then mass invisibility at same time, then I die. Mesmoar clones all look alike and hit for 5k per second. So OP.

I am guessing this is a joke as all 3 abilities take up the elite slot.

Shukran.4851:

ClickJ.6287:

even retaliation damage kill illusions easily.
and if you really want to deal with mesmer, set a aoes.
check your skills that not single target oriented

meanwhile a thief use shortbow to aoe the illusions, mesmer just switch to sword, #3 #3 #2, some random stun, random illusion shatter. gg thief was nice to pownz you.
true story.

#3, #3? Those abilities have cooldowns on all mesmer swords…must have been a painfully long cat and mouse game.

I recommend 2 things. Change clones to phantasms in your complaint as clones will crit for about 15 damage. Also play a mesmer in PvE to level 20 or so, the difference between clones and player will become obvious (looks, skill use, bouncing attacks never bounce to a clone, actions, etc).

And to relieve your GS/Staff combo fears…the creature coming withing 900 feet of you is an illusion as those 2 weapons are ranged weapons (in fact, great sword becomes very weak close up).

Mesmers are very hard to kill, but that is their game…they twinkle toes you to death.

Most likely the majority of the other team rage quit. I think the real problem here is the ability to run away from bad matches with no repercussions.

Great data. As far as the discrepancy between apparent power and score, I have a few suggestions.

Necros are decently high damage class with good survivability. As a pet necro, it is more frequent that you will spring back to life scoring killing blows and not giving points for your own death then with most other classes.

Thieves excel at killing. With a group that runs as a zerg, they do really well popping in, killing a person for high points, and popping out. This could explain the high numbers but low frequency of these numbers.

Mesmers are a low damage output, but difficult to kill class. Many mesmers take advantage of their class by playing support or controlling points. Important to victory, but low on the point board.

Warriors are really good at squishing newer players. In a random spvp situation the likelyhood of seeing inexperienced players is inflated, as well as the warriors score.

Kiting is the key. Do not use any abilities that leave any non-moving aggro drawing effects (ie mesmer clones). Do not stop moving. Do not help raise dead companions. The poison does not spawn if the spiders do not catch targets.

Same here, empty spec. I have to agree with Fabbs, Mesmer has the reputation of being a very high damage class, but this just is not the case. They start slow but begin to put out solid numbers in prolonged fights. The thing that makes mesmers shine is the survivability you can grant yourself and others with the right combination of weapons/utilities/combo chains.

Vinteros Asteano.1209:

I use my Chaos Shield and Chaos Storm at the same time, it adds a ton of survivability in a short period of time.

I prefer to use Chaos Storm, make sure I am just barely in the range, then hit Phase retreat for the combo finisher: ehtereal which grants you Chaos Shield without wasting a cast.

Original poster, take a close look at our combo fields and combo finishers, you can get many free buffs vs melee. Staff, torch, main hand sword, focus, and several of our utilities combine really well for keeping up almost non-stop chaos shield (which I almost never have to cast on myself because I continuously get it for free).

The main thing I overlooked for leveling at those levels was the effectiveness of the 1 handed sword in PvE. Try it out if you are not currently, life is much easier that way.

IceyPain.1802:

Playing as a Mesmer myself, as well as other professions such as thief, engineer and necromancer, so here’s my opinion:

I will straight up say that I do not care if Moa morph gets nerfed, it feels gimmicky and I don’t use it anyways. Aside from that I would make minor nerfs AND buffs to the profession.

Buffs +
+Torch needs it’s skills reworked so they are stronger.
+ Scepter #1 skill could use a damage buff
+ Blink could use a buff to fix it’s inability to traverse small gaps/different elevations.
+ Clones should wear an offhand
+Slightly buff the F2 and F3 shatters.

Nerfs -
-Shorten the duration of Moa to 5 seconds, but slightly reduce the cooldown timer.
-Slightly nerf the HP of Phantasms(in PvP only, I do not like this fix for PvE)
-Slightly nerf the damage of Mindwrack(in PvP only, I do not like this fix for PvE)
-Slightly nerf the damage of iDuelist(but fix AI)

Buffs retort:
+I love the torch…aoe combo finisher is amazing when many players do not seem to grasp the combo field jive
+Agreed
+ehh…wouldn’t complain but not high on my list
+Agreed
+Agreed

Nerfs retort:
+sounds fair
+dunno…world of aoe and all
+no opinnion
+agreed

Mesmer main here. I have to agree that Moa is really strong and needs to be toned down.

Strangely it has not been on my bar for weeks due to its lack of versatility in comparison to our other elites.

These two statements seem to conflict, but perhaps that is why Moa is still so powerful. Many of us do not use it (so it slides low on the matrix tracking), but those who design around single target kills can really shine with this ability.

I prefer utility and versitility and therefore will rarely use it outside of an hour or two on occasion when I force myself to swap abilities so I do not fall completely into a predictable rut of skills.