People always complained that stealth was overpowered or broken. And the S/D thief is a ridiculous dodge machine, but what’s the most nerfed thief weapon? Shortbow.
Nice necro btw.
Not arguing whether stealth in Gw2 is balanced or not, but in every single online video game I’ve ever played that had a stealth function, it’s almost everybody’s favorite thing to complain about.
I think rage runes are great. I’m leaning towards using them on my S/D build but still haven’t decided. +35% fury uptime, plus a chance to proc it for 15! seconds every 30 give you in total a lot more time spent with +20% crit chance. My cirt chance with S/d is only in the 30s so that’s why I might use these.
I wouldn’t recommend rage if you already have around 50% crit chance (diminishing return on additional crit relative to power the higher you go) bu if you’re under 40% and using bountiful theft, I think they’re a great set
where in the video are you using 2/6/0/0/6? which color armor? Thats the build I like to run
The video is in different quality and when im wearing a panda hat with all black noob armor ^^
Thanks. I found your gear very interesting. Most theives I see, including myself, opt for a few valkyrie pieces + berserkers, and I see you went with toughness (caveliers) instead. Do you think toughness > vitality (in general, or for your playstyle)? I’m starting to think so, it looked like you were taking much less damage from backstabs than I do, and with our 2 short cooldown heals (withdraw, stealth) one shouldn’t need a huge hp pool.
Anyway you’ve inspired me to pick up some valk gear and possibly pack runes.
question: How do you feel about runes of rage? Leaning towards these with my S/d
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It really does feel like lag. It’s that little slide you do towards the end of the animation.
if you have tips to make this build better ill be happy to hear them .
some guy (forget his name, post on front page though) posted a cool S/D roaing video. What I found most interesting was his gear- He used Cavelier (toughness) instead of Valk. Now, I normally run the same gear you listed. (valk armor – zerk everything else), but after thinking about it I think toughness > vitality on thief, (especially if using Withdraw) and here is why:
Healing scales with toughness. We have a 15 second cooldown heal, and healing on stealth. With the amount we can regen, might as well have those hit points be worth more. So I suggest trying caveliers over valkyrie, even though I haven’t tried it myself I plan to, it seems stronger. Maybe half and half? I don’t know, but I really think a little bit of armor goes a long way and is well worth sacrificing HP for.
As for the build itself it looks really interesting.. I’ve still never used Improv in a build, not sure if it would be better to use same type of skill, or make it varied so it procs more often.
where in the video are you using 2/6/0/0/6? which color armor? Thats the build I like to run
kitten , he makes good use of that shortbow
I would definitely go with air, and if not force. Stacking bloodlust is sooo annoying, cant touch water, have to re-stack when down, etc. Furthermore Air+ fire is awesome, they add a lot of burst and you can just dodge around while they are on CD. In PvE or if you’re just attacking for 10 seconds straight (10s cooldown on air/fire) force may be slightly better for dps, but for practical usage I’d say air definitely provides more damage.
250 power is pretty big but I could never see myself using that in WvW. Stacking is annoying and you’ll probably end up playing like a little kitten being scared to die/tocuh water
Solution: GvG matchmaking in an instanced arena
The only things that need nerfs in sPvP:
That kitten Warrior Long bow massive damage AoE field, Idk wtf that is but its OP, does more damage than any necro field I ever sat in. Eeryone complains about “hambows” but I have no problems with hammers, just the longbow, that skill in particular.
Engi turrets (or at least that elite). So broken in conquest
Also wouldn’t mind might in general nerfed.
That is all
The leaderboard still shows skill because, as Vince mentioned, everyone has to deal with outnumbered matches. So those matches — and other problematic matches — become a statistical wash for everyone after 30 or so games. What leaderboards measure, then, is who can carry their team despite whatever problems — four-on-five matches, bad comps, bad attitudes — arise.
In your opinion, how does it show skill? I’ve seen alot new players in top 25, had them on my team, they didn’t know what they were doing at all. Just lucky because they get matched up with good players.
Most guys on the leader-board with a lot of games played are definitely skilled. Yea its broken how someone that goes like 10-3 gets up there, but look at the guys with high volume of games. If youre winning 62% of 1000 games you’re pretty kitten good
Very skilled player is always superior to a scrub, no matter the weaponset. Note that I wrote condi P/D with condi duration food and dire. I don’t have any problem with P/D on its own. The QQ hell would fall on these forums if power builds would be given food equivalent to 8 trait points.
Very good player vs very good player I think backstab should win.
Anyway I think food in WvW in general is stupid and would like to see it removed. And the might on dodge +40% endrance regen is stronger than 40% condi duration in my opinion. Only reason I use 36% condi duration food is because I’m broke. If I could afford the dodge food I’d be all over that. I’d be happy if they removed food in general though.
Thanks for all of the helpful responses guys, I decided to stick with the balt runes for damage. Grenth was fun but are pretty ineffective verse other thieves, which seem to be my most common foe (great vs ele though, switching to this in PvP duels vs ele for sure) but am now considering possibly scavanger runes for heals and extra condition damage (I have a lot of vitality) still deciding.
I also decided to stick with shortbow. I mostly need my second set for escape purposes only, and heartseeker feels way more clunky and less reliable than my nice clean shadowshot. Plus I like to travel in style and SB 5 is too fun. I’ll definitely keep D/D in my bag though for flipping camps, death blossom OP for that
I LOVE long reach (though only when using sleight of hand, more worth it with low steal cooldown). Thrill of the crime is more useful in some cases, but long reach is simply more fun than boons, and when chasing someone- they are usually dead with or without fury. I switch between the two myself in power builds and can’t decide which I like more either
As long as there is condi duration food and dire, condi P/D will be considered ez mode by some players including me. If I bump into you in wvw and see +40% condi food, do you think I care about you having a different build than the average or the fact you have carrion instead of dire? No. I will most likely not even bother fighting you.
Going up against a build that you are not prepared to fight can lead to frustration, I know. But the solution to it is to equip accordingly.
I always pay attention to have sufficient condi cleanses with any build that I run. Increased condi duration is no problem in that case. Maybe you should try that one out yourself?
If increased condi duration is no problem for people with condi cleanses, why do you use the food then? Every single condi thief uses same food just as they use dire because with these two, P/D is faceroll to play.
So far I’ve seen only one thief on these forums actually say he plays condi P/D cos he would use anything that gives him the most advantage. Everyone else wraps the reasoning into who much the enjoy the playstyle and how fun it is. It’s simple, they want easy wins so they play condi P/D. If direct dmg was buffed today, all these players would run backstab builds tomorrow.
I will not put my time in the game to entertain anyone who chooses condi P/D.
I use P/D because its most effective for me, because I am not pro or super-skilled. I Make mistakes so vitality+toughness is great on me and soldiers gear blows on thieves. That being said, if you’re very skilled- backstab thieves are superior to p/d condi thieves in most situations. 95% of thieves, including myself aren’t good enough to make BS work better than a Dire build.
So I agree that P/D is easier, but if you’re really good Backstab has more potential. Being that you can backstab for 7k and spend most fo your time in stealth with 8 teleports, if you’re having trouble verses p/d as a BS thief, its a L2P issue (I have same issue, backstab is just harder to play).
Tl;dr: P/D isn’t stronger than backstab, it’s easier (dire +ranged). BS builds have more potential, but require a lot of skill to the point where it might seem week. I dont understand how other thieves complain about P/D- as thief is a bullkitten class in general. From the perspective of other classes permastealth BS thieves are just as bullkitten
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Wow runes of grenth huh? Very very interesting. I’m glad you suggested something cheap, definitely going to test these out when I get home. I think i’ll only do hydromancy on SB, I don’t want to give up agony sigil or bursting on dp.
Also, thats another thing- using SB secondary right now but mostly for escaping and poison field… What’re your thought about d/d second set
I have the same CPU and a bit better GPU and have trouble in wvw zergs, like 15fps. But thats like 100 vs 100. I’m able to fight 10 v 10 with ~40 fps with medium settings so I just stick to smaller scale stuff. Crowded cities ~25fps
edit: WOW, just turned all of my settings to low/off and fps went from ~55 to ~80-85. Shaders and shadows had the biggest effect by far it seems. Game still looks beautiful too
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I would think Mesmer would have the highest burst, followed by scepter ele and BS thief.
With a full life force pool built up, I might say necro #1 for tankyness.
Also, Egnineer is tankier than thief IMO (blocks, better heals, more protection/regen)
Could be totally wrong, but this is how it seems
Thief, for no other reason that the first toon I made is sylvari thief and its pretty much all I play. You can make thief skin dark grey and make them look very thief-y and less leafy
Just in case anyone has been following this thread I thought I would share my experiences with some of the rune sets:
Krait:
- Pros: Bleed duration is devastating against opponents with little to no condition removal. I could apply bleeds and pretty much hide in stealth and watch them die.
- Cons: Bleed duration pretty useless if they do have good condition removal. Also the 6th set bonus pretty much forces you into using Basilisk Venom, and applies conditions you are already normally applying.
Balthazar
- Pros: Burning is not a condition you normally have access to, and can really help out if your opponent has good condition clearing.
- Cons: Burning only happens when you heal near the opponent. If you’re using HiS, that will be every 30 seconds only. Withdraw helps with this, but you lose the stealth and bleed/poison/burning removal of HiS.
Perplexity:
- Pros: Adds a condition you can apply that synergizes really well with Sleight of Hand.
- Cons: To trigger the condition with Sleight of Hand, you actually have to interrupt a move your opponent is doing. I found that at the beginning of the fight, especially if you jump someone, Steal->CnD won’t normally trigger it.
As a follow up question to this topic, what utility skills do you guys normally run?
I’ve found Spider and Skale Venom to be pretty useless (since those conditions are getting applied normally anyways). It also seems that a stun breaker (Roll for Initiative / Shadowstep) and a stealth move (Blinding Powder / Shadow Refuge) is almost mandatory for this build.for me balthazar >any rune. i use withraw and cleanse condition with SS and stealth cleanse.
skale buff your dmg so you can tick higher in shorter time so even if the enemy got cleanse you will do dmg. so many p/d thieves which not use this cant even kill me just harras me as only 5 bleed and 2 torment wont do much
What about torment? I made a thread about this yesterday but no responses yet. I’m currently using balthazar and love it, but was considering saving for tormenting runes, as you get the torment on heal + 35% torment duration. Now, I know that the on-heal of balthazar runes is better being that its burning and a unique condition, but the burning duration from runes only affect that ability, where is I have 2 other sources of torment.
might just stick with baltz because im broke
I’m confused on why you are using carrion and worried of your actual sustainability the main point of using a condition build is to last and stack. How is that possible with your toughness and low condition clearing even with the evades? It feels awkward not using sneak attack on p/d especially in full passive style.
Trait wise I would still go SA and Bountiful Theft over Ricochet.
I might chose dire instead. But then I would solely rely on conditions, wouldn’t I?
PAIN RESPONSE and SHADOW STEP are quite sufficient to cleanse conditions periodically for me. I didn’t really have serious problems with conditions so far. Of course against a dedicated condition applier, it will get tough.
Evades are great for survival in my opinion. This way you can also avoid getting hit by conditions and stuns. And I rather evade an attack then just reducing some damage. But of course this is all personal preference. Reducing damage is a fully viable alternative, of course.
I decided not to use sneak attack much because the only condition I would be applying would be bleeds. And that is easily cleansed. I am thinking that if you apply a multitude of conditions, it is more likely that the damaging condition is not cleansed by the opponent. But that doesn’t mean I don’t use it. I usually use CLOAK AND DAGGER, SNEAK ATTACK close to the opponent and then use SHADOW STRIKE.
Bountiful theft I suppose would be preferable to ricochet in PvP and 1vs1 scenarios.
carrion isn’t bad, but power isn’t that great without precision and ferocity, which you do not have. Vitality and toughness however, scale with eachother,as well as heals, so thats Why I prefer dire.
I just farmed a dire set and am playing a condition class for the first time. It’s really nice having 2.9k armor. I highly recommend taking 10 out of DA and put 10 in shadow arts for either the blind, or the condi removal in stealth (i prefer the blind, but run 4 in SA for both). Also, as somebody else said I recommend going bountiful theft over ricochet. Sometimes I use Long reach in this slot for fun and catching stragglers in WvW. But 10sec of vigor and 2 boon rips is is very strong (removes boons and gives to you, so a 4 boon swing). If you plan on doing a lot of 1v3’s ricochet may be better actually.
And don’t listen to people kittening about p/d thieves. The point of Gw2 imo is to find broken specs, lol. At least that’s the fun of it to me. Also, its not so much p/d weaponset that is overpowered- it’s dire and on some classes soldiers gear that is way to efficient (and zerker in Pve). Vit+Toughness is just so good to have in wvw and frustrating to fight against with all the heals being thrown out there. Also, how fighting 95% of a fight in stealth is more honorable baffles me
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If you’re going to be using a lot of stealth, which is kind of necessry if you’re wielding a dagger in WvW, I think Cavalier/Vitality/berserker armor mixed is really good. Get about 20-30% crit chance and a lot of survivability and use hidden killer for guarenteed crit sigil procs. If you want to use full zerk gear executioner 100%.
With a lot of backstabs I think tankyness+low (but not no) cirt+hidden killer is optimal. However full zerk + executioner is good too.
I use hidden killer in WvW and executioners in PvP
When stealing with dagger off-hand, cast cloak and dagger (#5) a half second before to get stealth on steal (never a need to trait for it with dagger offhand) setting you up for a back-stab. Also if you’re not going for conditions, 6 points in critical strikes is essential (at least in PvE) IMO
Highly recommend the “Haste” utility skill, and 3 in trickery is mandatory for P/P. You can open the battle with 3 quickened unloads
“You will never see a D/P in a PVE, Top Tier SPVP, Top Duels.”
You serious?
It doesn’t need to be nerfed but its a really strong weaponset. I’d say 2nd best weaponset for power builds outside of s/d (for pvp), and probably the best in WvW
Lol at every pvp post eventually turning into NA sucks.
Well the level of competition is a bit worse on the US ladders tbh. I have a US account and played with and against most of the guys you consider top tier. So its not like i didnt experience it first hand.
As you can see on the screenshot below i have no issues on skyhammer … even if i play on the US ladders with an extra 0.5 sec delay.
Just run around like a … from A to C -> stealth out of LoS -> pull ppl down who are fighting allready = so much skill?
proud enough to post a picture… as an engineer… That’s like Goliath bragging about beating up David
I hate the map because of the hammer more so than the pulls. The hammer is boring to operate and annoying to worry about.
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KY Jelly
/15char
ascended zerk rings+ ammy, armor/weapons (orge/fire/air)
full Valkyrie amor (speed)
full dire set (balthazar)/weapons/armor, ascended ammy
thinking about geting some cavaleir trinkets to use with valkyrie set for a low crit full hidden killer build
d/p is by far the best set for 1v1 IMO. The only advantage of d/d is cloak and dagger, but the d/p can get stealth without a target (but for 9 ini). D/d probably better than s/d just because of backstab. You’re pretty much never going to use d/d #3 and #4 while all the d/p skills come in handy
WvW- I can’t see myself playing anything else while solo-roaming, which is what I like doing most of the time. I love the steal ability, I love how you can trait it. It’s the best class-skill trait line by far IMO. Thieves seem a lot more versatile with no cool-downs, where other classes have common,predictable rotations due to not having the flexibility to do the same skill twice. One of my best moments was when I dazed 3 different guys trying to stomp a guy on my server. You would never normally need to spam 4 3 times straight, it would be wasted initiative, but in this situation it was satisfying that I had the presence of mind to do that and then execute. This is one of the main reason thief is so rewarding.
I also enjoy being an annoying pest. I’m not one of those pros that can 1v4 and collect 4 bags, but I can play chicken pretty well and thinks its quite fun distracting small groups away from whatever mission they were on
sPvP- Has to be played differently than any other class in PvP. You should always be spamming your sb 5 (or dagger 2 i guess) to zip around the map, back-dooring uncontested points and turning 1v1’s into 2v1’s, chunking half the guys health, then trusting your teammate to down him while you get other kitten done. If you aren’t using your mobility in Spvp play a different class, you can’t bunker or focus on one points like other classes due to sustain being built into stealth (or s/d acro) which doesnt work as well in pvp. Its a lot of fun
PvE- I’m so busy with WvW and PvP I never really play PvE. Maybe I should
So I just discovered how to withdraw forward and I feel like a brand new thief. I was rolling with krait runes before, but now that I can reliably aim “on heal” abilities I want to use one of these two rune sets.
Loving Balthazar right now, but wondering if I should save up for tormenting runes, as I often run with skale venom so have 2 sources of torment in my kit that would benefit from the +35% duration, which is nothing to scoff at. However, the ICD on torment on heal is 20sec, while withdraw is 15. (Balthazar is 10 so its every heal)
Basically it comes down to: 35% torment duration verses + having 1 unique condition and a slightly better on heal.
switching between 0/0/4/4/6 and 0/0/6/2/6
which runes would you choose? I don’t like complexity too much for thief and I am having fun with the “on heal” runes you have to aim with withdraw, any other good ones I’m not thinking of? (I’m going to be using withdraw anyway for the vigor uptime, might as well take advantage)
I love the EotM karma train. I main thief, and run around preying on the tail-ends of karma trains. The best is seeing them RAGE. I’d rather see salty text from the guy I just assassinated than see an exotic drop. I gain so much pleasure from kittening people off who take EotM for granted and think its free Karma….. Not when I’m around. I’ll kill your kitten before your train even realizes you’ve been attacked.
Basically, it insults my ego as a roaming thief that players, especially up-level, think they can run around getting free WXP without fear of me killing them. It’s more fun killing people that don’t expect/dont feel they deserve to die
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Wait, this is bad matchup for mesmer? As a thief player, a zerker shatter mesmer is one of the scariest things for me to fight. (not as scary as dps guard tho) If he catches me in 1 shatter im kittening doomed.
I feel with mesmer vs thief (perhaps its different versus pistol whip spec, i dont play that often) whoever spots the other guy first has the advantage
OP, you using Intel chip with a SATA hard drive? I am and i got an update on 6/17 from intel that was some power saving mechanism with SATA harddrives. Anyway, it was caughing my computer to hang up and crash about 5 times a day until I disabled the software it installed (Intel rapid storage technology). If thats on your computer, try disabling it, I haven’t crashed since i turned that off
Devs must be scratching their heads right now,
“But I thought Ai Was good for the game?”Seriously 17k hp? Evades? 1.5-3k crits? Constantly Up?
kitten it’s almost as good as a ranger pet.
The runes are OP, I’ve been using them since before strength got nerfed. That being said I’ve never seen a 3k crit, usually right around 1.5k… does it really hit 3k? any website have the stats on the bird? Another great thing is sometimes players accidentally attack the bird instead of you and it can save you from massive damage
Idk whether I should make an asuran for the advantage (actually, to not be at a disadvantage!), or play what race I like aesthetically. It’s a really kittenty dilemma.
in soloQ there are a couple bad maps where your team doesn’t know what to do, and like league- faces the problem of 4 random teammates.
That being said the pvp in this game is sooooo kittening fun and I highly, highly recommend it. Never thought and MMORPG could require such skillful gameplay. Of course there are some OP builds, and some kitten builds, but every class is viable. The dodge and endurance mechanics really eparate this game from the pack, as well as the traiting system. Lots of depth to character/build creation and can change specs on the fly, for free. It’s truly a great game.
Don’t listen to all of the naysayers, this is THE best MMORPG PvP experience out there. I’m planning on playing lots of gw2 pvp while I wait for BF hardline
edit: Watch some youtube videos or streams on twitch.tv, that will give you a good idea of exactly what this game is like. Like others say- devs care WAY more about WvW/PvE, but the organized PvP is still awesome (just updated less often), and if you like player vs player interaction WvW is a sweet alternative (fight 50 on 50 or roam and gank people solo)
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Everybody complains that: “oh you need to go zerker in PvE”
This is only true if you care about speed-running and are hellbent on using the fastest farming build. Also, I can’t think of a game that didn’t have a meta, doinant build for each class (PvE wise)
Still loads of viable builds that you can have fun with, you just wont bring as much dungeon clear speed to the table. i find soloing mobs and pvp more fun tha grinding dungeons anyway.
However if you are going to be playing in a lot of groups, i would stay away from conditions unless you know that group and know that you’ll be the only condi build within it
Want a spec that’s great for both? Surprised nobody has brought it up yet; Sword/Pistol zerker gear. I much prefer sword to dagger unless a condition build, and I prefer direct damage because. Sword skill #2 is VERY useful and a ton of fun to use. Sword #3, pistol whip does a ton of damage and interrupts, but can easily be evaded. A nice 100-0 combo- Elive venom skill- Steal (mug) – quickness utility skill (forget the name) – spam #3. Also sword is great for PvE due to cleave.
The meta thief build is S/D with 2/0/0/6/6. I use the same traits or sometimes switch to 2/6/0/6/0 if I’m feeling frisky, but in general the trickery tree is really strong, and so is acrobatics for tPvP
Who’s bright idea was it to have the same map over and over again for multiple days? Terrible idea
Thanks for the input guys! I didn’t realize the signet overrides swiftness, i’m thinking of switching spectra walk for spectral wall, or switch out my signet for something…
Also, you are completely accurate bwab about the conditions and welcome waste cleanses. Most of my damage is actually done via auto-attack with dagger. I can get most people down around 50% with well+daze+auto-attacks
Also, while my armor is low, I’m rocking 26k+ health with max life pool and plenty of sources of life force. With proper use of DS I can stay in fights very long while doing significant damage. Considering witching piercing lifeblast for 50% fear duration, idk.. what is your similar build/gear bawb?
With this build you do a tonne of damage, have 4 different things that proc on-crit, and great tankyness via DS uses (knights or berserker) amulet. Also uses foot in grave trait for DS stomps. Let me know what you think. (used for spvp havent tried for wvw)
I don;t feel like the balance is too bad in gw2 honestly, and I know I’m in the minority on that. My teir list, groups not in order:
Ele
guard
Engi
Ranger
Necro
Thief
Warrior
I have thief and warrior at the bottom but they can both be very good
I prefer power. I love the dagger main hand and like how you don’t need a target to auto-attack, it feels a lot smoother. Dagger main is definitely better with pwoer
Played every profession, mostly play spvp, also wvw. Necr and thief are the most fun professions in my opinion
With this build you will have 100% fury up time, a multitude of on crit effects, and do a lot of damage while still being pretty tanky via life force. Check it out let me know what you think:
Some I’m wondering if I should use runes of the orrian, or bleed durtion runes. Orian gives me 175 condi damage, 15% poison duration, 5% chance to poison enemies on hit, and 5 seconds of haste at 20% health (godly imo). However a good chunk, if not ost of my damage come from bleeds, so was wondering if it would be better to get 75 stats and 30% bleed duration + 10% condition duration instead. Worse stats, no haste though.
What what you guys run? What other runes do you like? Thanks
same problem here,
just rolled a norn necro, never looked back