Guild Wars 2

gesho.9468:

id like to learn some more about significance of these numbers. id hate to keep learning the game only to discover it dead before long.

what are numbers needed to keep spvp alive? are above 800 players enough? is this compensated by solo or hotjoin volume?

if there is any reassuring arguments, devs please make them public. else silence points to rumored demise of gw2 spvp being true.

There’s no doubt that soloq and hotjoins are immensely more popular than team queues. I don’t have the data to access the actual ratios, but if the criteria is: “Unique accounts that play at least once every week” – I’d peg “Players who PvP but don’t play Team Queues” to “Players who also play Team Queues” it 100:1. Of course I’m really ignorant to the actual stats, like everyone is.

In the extremely casual landscape of PvP in all it’s forms, (Hotjoin, Solo, Team), we’re seeing a shrinking player base for the competitive mode – Team queues. That’s just because we have created a casual landscape and that’s retained casual players. It’s much more fun to play Solo queues and Hotjoins casually. Simple!

irma.3518:

• snip snip *

I don’t have problem with my engineer and its build. I have problem when I engage with mesmer or thief or any other good geared good players.

Okay.

irma.3518:

They are bursting too much damage instant to me.

Alright, so let’s find out why that’s happening.

irma.3518:

I am full dps stat build ( 30-30-0-0-10 ) ;so I can maximize the damage output.

So I’m sensing finding the root of the problem here.

irma.3518:

If their build is a defense build they should lose from offensive damage ( even their build is hybrid ;because full offensive build should give more than a hybrid build in general )

Here is the real problem. For this to actually be true, every combination of traits and gear, whether full glass to full bunker, with every weapon choice, would have to be in balance equilibrium. This is just really unrealistic. To be competitive in non-zerg conditions, you really need to be able to stay alive for the amount of time that it takes for your damage to be effective.

irma.3518:

When I hit them it’s hard to down their hp and it’s hard to defeat them ,however they kill me in a 10 sec with giving instant too much damage with a few hits. Is it normal ? The answer is " NO ".

Something you will soon come to understand about GW2 that no good build is completely defenseless. To be brief, your build sacrifices all the tools you need in order to 1v1, 2v2, 3v3, etc. In the most simple example, what you did in your build was choose against the traits and utilities that amount for 50% of your survivability, but only gained an incremental 25% damage increase.

Something you also need to understand is that if you want to build full glass and maximize damage on any profession, you need:

• 1) Amazing damage avoidance. Stealth, blinks, invulns, hella blinds, vigor, just high evade frames in general. To my knowledge, it’s really only Mesmers and Thieves that can get away with running TRUE glass cannon. Engineer needs to build for these things, which makes true glass builds impossible to be really ‘good’. If you have a plan to toss grenades on a point and never actually have to get close to your enemy, as an Engi, then by all means go ahead.

• 2) You need killing power. In your 30/30/0/0/10 build I can imagine you have tons of raw damage – but don’t mistake simply building full glass stats for building to have actual killing power. Engi is the profession that is going to be bad if you don’t have good combos in order to apply this damage.

^This is an example of what killing power is: http://www.twitch.tv/chaithh/c/3125426

The build used in that highlight is 916 toughness (glass), however I use traits like Protection Injection, Invigorating Speed, and a toolkit for amazing block uptime.

So to summarize, if your build doesn’t have killing power to back up the glass cannon stats, or any way to avoid damage, you can’t build glass cannon. If you build it because it’s fun, understand that you will lose to many players that are worse than you who run builds that are better thought out.

Hope this helps.. if you want to try some 5v5 builds, you can check out my stream for those: twitch.tv/chaithh

I find it’s easiest to kill an Engineer as an Engineer. Go figure?

Yep! This is my build.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fcMQFAUlIqiYnvSXF1LJyoCdGoC2lIF5n+95Bb9gQIA-jEDBYfIYjAEEIkIAJfCiJPKrVhFRjVVDQXDT5aR12bMa12dASBAxuK-w

I can get 3.5s duration net shots and cause unimaginable pain during those from hybrid power crits & condition damage.

It’s actually a little broken as a solo roamer vs. some professions when I use Sitting Duck & Net Turret. FYI, Net attack, Net Turret, and Net shot, which you can use all at the same time is 14.5s of immobilize. If you dropped your Supply Crate, that 14.5s immob would go to 20s. Lol. Broken. Sitting duck’s cripple is 9s of cripple every 5s.

Just letting you guys know, power Engies are very good with +condition duration as well, since the main limiting factor on your damage is how often you can control your enemies to apply it.

After Dec. 10th though, there will have to be some significant changes. You can no longer get Enhanced Performance and Incendiary Powder. I’ll probably just get shrapnel & incendiary powder and lose the might stacks. :\

Day 4, 2:03 EST, up to 851 unique accounts that have tried team PvP.

Taku.6352:

Blind on torch #4 or warhorn #4. Every other profession has access to blind except rangers. (And no, jellyfish RNG smokefield does not count.)

Sun Spirit says ‘hay’

RaynStargaze.6510:

2 stance + duration + cleansing ire is imba against necros

1st serker stance for complete immune 2nd balanced for fear immune
hit f1 for condi cleanse and use lyssa elite when needed

20 seconds pretty much invincible vs necro (25 with lyssa)

gg

.. so yea i think the stance duration is one of the issues.

But then again theres a lot of situations where it would work out differently. Having balanced stance on even shorter cd sure sounds like a buff to me.

Having berserker stance on shorter cd would also buff it to be more of an adrenaline pump again – which seems somewhat scary to me. Maybe reduce the duration to 5 sec on 45 sek cd? that would be more like a nerf.

For sure. When facing comps with a significant amount of control, it’s not uncommon for Warriors to run Dolyak signet, Balanced Stance, Berserker Stance, and Lyssa runes. The feeling for professions that absolutely rely on defensive CC for their own defense and damage like Power Engi & Terror Necro is just like… “WHEN WILL IT ENDDDDDDD”. I think reactionary timing is a better road to go down with stances rather than “stack everything for 30s+”

Aquin.3192:

How about they make all stances available to all wars at shorter duration/abilities kind of like an engineer/mesmer F1-F4? Maybe require adrenaline use to switch?

Sound OP? Look at some other classes…

The engineer gets multiple additional abilities depending on their utility seleciton… but the mesmer gets like 4 additional skills that could be categorized as on par or stronger than utility selections of some classes.

I would like to also see this migrate to thief and every thief have something like a blinding powder, knock down trap whatever regardless of utility selection.

That’d be cool. Like, F1 – Burst ability, F2 – Balanced State. F3 – Berserker Stance. F4 – Frenzied Stance.

I like it. I think that’d be way more interesting. The problem is motivating the skills & balance team, lolol.

JETWING.2759:

Stances are too bad that the only stance that i use on my warrior no are a stance and i use for the simple fact of have 40s cd.
Actually stances are relatively bad for effects and cd.

• Reduce condition duration in 100% for 8s is for GS user burst his 100b without fear of take conditions. I liked Berserker Stance as was, only granting adrenaline but with 25s cd. I think the change to actual effect and cd was a nerf.
• No take raw damage for 8s only is for GS user. Useless against cc and conditions, and with too high cd… Weak and useless :/
• Quickness (only the boon) is advantage and disadvantage at same time. More one skill better useful with GS and his 100b :/ . I never use! I think this effect could be added to old Berserker Stance but with 40s cd. The unlocked slot could be filled by a new stance focused in health/endurance gain.

I respect your opinions, but from a tPvP standpoint, you are 100% alone on those ones.

milo.6942:

“PvP Discussion”

milo.6942:

“making a quick buck”

I wish I heard those two words in the same sentence more often. Maybe then we’d have some more impressive systems in place for the player’s benefit.

Costs aside, I don’t think that it’s always a bonfire of goodwill when you allow PvP players the option to support the developing company (and NCSOFT, * le sigh *) for some additional control over your gaming experience. Only one of your friends needs a custom arena, pitching in is usually pretty manageable. Like I said before, the biggest problem was taking Gems away from PvP. Even if players were on a custom arena treadmill, (tPvP for gems, to pay for custom arena) at least there would be people playing. I still extremely sad about this. We MMORPG players need all the carrots-on-a-stick that we can get.

NevirSayDie.6235:

Chaith.8256:

I think that almost all of the complaints about ‘bunkers’ doing too much damage are in fact complaints about ‘balanced’ builds doing too much damage. IE, offensive utilities, weapons & traits, but defensive stats.

0/0/10/30/30 clerics/soldiers shouts Guardian, 0/0/30/30/20 settlers/clerics Engineer

^These are real bunker builds. They indeed, do no damage. I think players have a tendency to exaggerate the ‘unkillable’-ness of many builds that are actually a healthy mix.

Yup. 8-10 months ago, when most builds were either full glass or full bunker, we made a lot of noise asking for more balanced/well-rounded builds to become viable. Carrion spirit ranger is not a bunker, and neither is rabid engineer. They both have some dps and some defensive tools, but nothing incredible in either department.

That 0/0/30/30/20 engineer, though…;) sorry couldn’t resist.

^lol, That build might actually be good if it could get some stability through traits. It’s not far off.

I feel custom arenas are more complicated than you understand – it doesn’t build off of the existing GW2 PvE / WvW Game Engine and is in a kind of separate entity that is never ‘off’. That’s why it was such a developmental hurdle. To be honest, the number of players on the server and the size of the virtual landscape are not good measures of cost either.

Everyone’s entitled to their own interpretations, though!

So .. phrase you are looking for is that: “I want templates.”

ronpierce.2760:

I think its more like why aren’t all bunkers (specifically power bunkers) able to do more, while burst have a little more defense. The stats need to be brought together a little more, the TTK is silly. Bunkers inevitably die if they’re not condy because they do like no damage, and burst kill people in 2 seconds or die themselves… Feels like vanilla wow all over again, burst, 1 shot or lose. Not very engaging.

You feel that power bunkers do significantly less pressure than condition bunkers? That mostly depends on the profession, I’d say.

I wouldn’t mind if the stats on gear had a little less of a range, so the most tanky tank wasn’t so crazy, and the burstiest burst class wasn’t so bursty, yeah. Right now we’re seeing a lot of balanced builds. Every warrior that is in tPvP (except bunker) is kind of a balanced bruiser build. There are no glassy warriors in tPvP. Condition classes almost always get some kind of defensive stat as well. I’d say it’s pretty much balanced builds that are good right now. Glassy thieves and mesmers are good, but not super prevalent.

So I’d say that I don’t share your analysis of the meta – being ‘1-shot or lose’ – there are tons of long battles between balanced builds, I see this all the time. The Meta Warrior, Ranger, Necro, Engineer – none of these builds are built glass, or build bunker – except the occasionally glass power Engi.

alcopaul.2156:

sign that balance in this game is a joke.

logic dictates that if youre unkillable you must have no damage, and if you have ultraelectromagnetic damage you must die in 2 hits. and if you are in between that means you cant kill the unkillable, you die to a good glass cannon and your damage sucks compared to the glass cannon. idiots guide to balancing classes.

I think that almost all of the complaints about ‘bunkers’ doing too much damage are in fact complaints about ‘balanced’ builds doing too much damage. IE, offensive utilities, weapons & traits, but defensive stats.

0/0/10/30/30 clerics/soldiers shouts Guardian, 0/0/30/30/20 settlers/clerics Engineer

^These are real bunker builds. They indeed, do no damage. I think players have a tendency to exaggerate the ‘unkillable’-ness of many builds that are actually a healthy mix.

Darnis.4056:

+1 Great ideas…

but anet wants to raise the skill floor not lower it.. imagine the average warrior with these new abilities.. hurr durr I spam buttons now?

Ah.. I look at it differently. Mashing the stance buttons would just overwrite your stances instead of stacking them. You’d have to pay attention to when they drop. If I’m only getting a defensive effect for 4s, I want to make sure that I time it properly so it mitigates a lot of damage. Right now it’s pretty easy to just hit Berserker Stance as well as Balanced Stance right before you engage and just go ham with impunity for 8 seconds. In theory, you’d have to decide if you need stability or condition immunity, and you’d have to time/match it better with incoming threats.

Edit: But honestly, you could just take Dolyak signet and just keep doing the same thing. I never got why Warriors have abilities that do the exact same thing with minor secondary effect flavors.

I understand why Anet had to limit the number of persistent servers they had to maintain. I understand why this feature has a cost. The system would need to be very different if everyone could have one. That would be very expensive to Anet if I understand how the servers work. What I just don’t understand why there wasn’t a decent gold generating strategy for PvPers introduced at the same time. That’s why they’re not the most popular right now. More features would help, too.

ratche.6204:

Chaith.8256:

VIVorcha.7853:

It annoys me that elementalists got a revamp and engineers got left out to dry.

I think we’re the least-liked class by Anet. We’re not one of the original classes, and we aren’t a cool Dungeons and Dragons class type (Thieves are Thieves and Guardians are Clerics).

I can’t believe you’re saying ‘poor Engineers’ because they’re not covered under the 4 Dungeons and Dragons archetypes, lol. Yes, Anet clearly hates all Engineers. That’s like saying an Artist probably least likes his second painting, because if he really liked it, he would have painted that concept first. lolololol.

I don’t see that comparison at all. He’s basing his opinion on the treatment of engineer, not on the time it was created.

He just used ’We’re not one of the original classes’ as he elaborated on why Engineer is least liked. What? And even if he was basing his opinion on the treatment of Engineer… what bad treatment has Engineer received? It was just the Ele who was subpar and got buffed. It wasn’t the Engi alone who didn’t get a new toy, it was every profession other than Ele. Gawdam.

irma.3518:

Then, we need some real buffs – not nerfs or useless buffs …

No, sorry. That’s not true. It is balanced, but the balance equilibrium takes into account that the person playing Engineer is at a really strong level. A strong Engineer, built correctly will obliterate an average or poorly played Mesmer/Thief.

If you’re struggling, then you must realize you have the most room to improve of just about any profession. Once you’ve mastered your abilities to where all your attacks, including grenades, rarely whiff (miss), then you will know how squishy thieves and Mesmers actually are.

Rieselle.5079:

In a game where you can put bleed and burning on a fire elemental, i don’t think we should worry too much about plausibility.

All the classes need more mechanics. But they need to be more universal than merely a limitation on one type of skill.

Examples I’ve posted on in the past:
- Ele has an adrenaline-style bar for mode changes, rather than cool downs.
- Warrior can spend stamina to ignore a skill cool down.
(obviously the classes need to be rebalanced around the new mechanic)

The plausibility line in my post was a joke. I made this post from a gameplay perspective.

As for your suggestions, I’d welcome any kind of update in the flexibility of universal mechanics. I feel that it would be a nice break from the same strategies that every profession does, and more of an experience like: “These are your resources, choose how to spend them.” That’s what Thief would be like if Initiative wasn’t like, unlimited.

VIVorcha.7853:

It annoys me that elementalists got a revamp and engineers got left out to dry.

I think we’re the least-liked class by Anet. We’re not one of the original classes, and we aren’t a cool Dungeons and Dragons class type (Thieves are Thieves and Guardians are Clerics).

I can’t believe you’re saying ‘poor Engineers’ because they’re not covered under the 4 Dungeons and Dragons archetypes, lol. Yes, Anet clearly hates all Engineers. That’s like saying an Artist probably least likes his second painting, because if he really liked it, he would have painted that concept first. lolololol.

The Engineer is an awesome concept because it is pretty much every ‘rare’ and ‘oddball’ RPG role combined into one. The Engineer is: 1) The Inventor/Machinist. 2.) The Gunslinger/Demolitionist. 3) The Alchemist.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FantasyCharacterClasses

If you remember correctly, Elementalists had no ways to prevent a stomp in the first 8 seconds. LOL. That is infinitely worse than any downed state that ever existed. Anet intervened for that – it was truly broken. I can see how Engineer downed state is not demanding of Anet to immediately buff it, if you can’t see that, then I think you’re blind to the fact that even much greater perceived inequalities are everywhere.

Thieves and Mesmers are very strong duelists in WvW and PvP, and have a very stacked deck at low levels of mastery, compared with the Engineer. I’m going to assume you’re running something like a P/P Condition Grenade build. I’ll explain:

• Mesmers in particular have huge periods where you simply will not be able to land a single ability. I can only guarantee that the ‘hps’ of your enemies will go down faster than your Engineer if you learn when the holes in the Mesmer’s evasion is going to be. Against glassy Mesmers, reliable attacks like Pistol 1, 2, & 3 are often the only abilities that you will be able to reliably hit with, unless the Mesmer messes up, then you have to punish him with harder hitting abilities. My tips vs. Mesmers: bring toolkit and block as soon as you get iLeaped. Get good at landing shrapnel grenades on the mesmer as soon as the blurred frenzy wears off. Get good at landing magnet and using prybar & blowtorch before he can escape. Keep constant pressure up with Pistol 1-2-3, and constantly be advancing on the mesmer, forcing dodge rolls and allowing you to land a rare grenade or two (it’s hard). Bring some good sustain – Healing Turret and Backpack Regenerator makes you more than a match for most Mesmers, as long as you can land those clutch moves even though the Mesmer profession only gives you extremely short windows.

• Thieves as your opponent, just focus on playing very defensively. Anticipate the offensive teleports from Steal/Infiltrator’s Strike where he attacks – whatever build he’s running. Blocks and Elixir S are huge for doing that. Recommended utilities for fighting thieves, Toolkit and Elixir S/Slick shoes. If you bring Grenades/Bombs, use those at your feet to counterpressure the thief while he attempts to melee you. If the thief plays really defensively and just shortbow’s you all day, your pistol and sustain should be more than a match for trick shot spam. If the Thief is running away from you with low HP, get a magnet on him – I’ve pulled thieves clear out of Shadow Refuge countless times because it’s often predictable that he’ll do it as he’s retreating and out of other cooldowns. As soon as a thief is in shortbow, you have the go ahead to play very offensively with your pistols – the thief will probably evade about 6 times in a row and then you will get some guaranteed incendiary powder procs & pistol 1, 2, 3 on him. Keep aggressive and be ready to anticipate when he retaliates hard.

Kardis.3297:

Its not the worst weapon in our kits. I think the wrench is pretty friggin wasted space. Bombs aren’t what they used to be. Elixir gun(especially with 409 formula not applying to those elixirs) all this talk of support/heal builds getting attention makes me laugh.

Wot?

Toolkit is amazing in WvW/PvP, and holds it’s own as a secondary kit utility in PvE. Bombs are better than ever with the radius increases, and minor buffs to Elixir Infused Bombs. I have always agreed that Elixir Gun should have some kind of support synergy with Elixir traits, but it’s technically not underpowered in it’s current state.

When dealing with Warriors while up close and personal, it’s an obvious decision to not be trading blow for blow while the Warrior has 2-3 stances up. It’s common knowledge for players (berserker players especially) to put on as much avoidance as possible, and wait the stances out. This is all well and good – Warriors that panic and “press ALL the buttons!” find their foe could just evade out for 3 seconds, and go invisible for 5 seconds – re-opening when the Warrior is cooldown-less, able to be poisoned. The Warrior is quickly punished for that mistake. And a very common mistake that I see with beginner Warriors.

On the other hand, there are an equal amount of times where I’ve seen Warriors “press ALL the buttons!” and simply demolish immobile players while being, for all purposes, completely impossible to counter-pressure.

And then there is the flavor & style behind using stances. GW2 has definitely taken a unique stance on stances (ho-ho). I’ve personally played pretty much all of the MMO titles in the last decade, and anything ‘stance’, ‘attunement’, ‘mode’, ‘shapeshift’, related or otherwise is always mutually exclusive. Whether it’s toggled, creates a debuff on the user, or anything else – these powerful effects are usually always throttled. You can never be in multiple stances at the same time. Does that even make sense? LOL. There’s a certain amount of things that are OK in fantasy games, but I’ve always chuckled to myself whenever I pop more than one stance at once, and imagine my character contorted into a hilarious, unnatural pose while fighting.

Now, in my opinion of course, the biggest positives of ‘stances’ traditionally in MMOs are the active aspect of stance changing. Stance-dancing if you will – heavy reactionary play that forced the player to ‘bend’ with the situation appropriately with micromanagement.

I don’t think that this kind of strategy is possible with the current implementation of stances – they’re often mashed pre-emptively before blowing all the damage. It just seems to lack depth.

I made some mock patch notes describing the direction I’d like to see Warrior Stances go. Don’t fixate on the details like it’s Anet who just announced them, but imagine the different kinds of plays:

• Stances: Only 1 activated stance can be present on the Warrior at any given time. Activating a new stance replaces the effect of the previous one. The traits ‘Last Stand’ and ‘Defy Pain’ will continue to stack with existing effects.

• Balanced Stance: Cooldown reduced to 30s from 40s. Stability reduced to 5s from 8s

• Berserker Stance: Cooldown reduced to 30s from 60s. Duration reduced from 8s to 4s.

• Endure Pain: Remains unchanged. I think this skill actually requires timing & thought to be worth it.

I’ll end with asking you guys some #’s.

• How your experience is when using Warrior stances, and dealing with Warriors using stance?

• Do you think there is room for improvement of this mechanic?

• Do you also think using 2+ ‘stances’ is inherently weird as well? Haha.

End of day 2, only 585 people tried team PvP on NA, as of 12:14AM EST since reset. EU has been fully ranked @ 1k+ for quite a bit now. *Cries. *

Aberrant.6749:

If you can give more reasons why eng is better than the others I wouldn’t mind reading them. I disagree with the ones you’ve listed already.

You misunderstand. I’m not saying everyone should have the same exact skills that behave in the same way or anything. You can have them do different things that have similar end results. I’m suggesting that the minimum effect should be for the #2 skill that it can stop multiple stompers on down. There are ways to achieve this without it all being the same and feeling homogenized (just look at the top 2 sort of tiers and how they differ).

I know you like Engineer, but, if you’re trying buffs on for size I think you should consider the Necromancer too. It’s actually arguably the weakest as well, despite you disagreeing.

Have you checked out the Necro downstate recently? The Engineer gets Chill or Weakness or Bleed on the 1-skill. Some hybrid damage. Some pretty good shutdown. Compared to the Necro’s Life Siphon, there are many situations where I would rather have chill, weakness, and bleed on my attacker than I would rather have ‘health siphoning’ lol.

The Necromancer 2-skill – same challenges as the Engineer downed state 2 ability, but reversed direction for affected enemies. Has bad synergy with the stationary 3 skill, which the enemy needs to sit in for full effect. On the other hand, the Engineer 2-skill can pull targets in and execute them with Booby Trap.

The Necromancer 3-skill – the AoE poison well. Poison damage is a factor. The well’s damage hits well (ho-ho). Overall, useless if you’re about to be stomped. Has very low impact on the fight. The Engineer’s 3-skill, Booby Trap, this thing acts as a second interrupt to often extend the Engineer’s chances of rallying while downed farther than the Necros on average. It’s bursty, a blast finisher, and I’d take it over the necromancer’s ‘Fetid Ground’ any day, for those reasons.

So, do you not agree that Engineer downed state is overall better than the Necromancer?

To be quite honest, none of these comparisons even matter. And that’s because they should not be of equal strength to begin with. Something you mentioned before, about how every profession should get equally potent, but unique, downed state abilities. A great idea in theory, but it doesn’t take into account the fact that the downed state strength of each profession are a part of the equation when balancing the profession as a whole/

My point is – you feel that equalizing/homogenizing downed state strength will improve balance across professions, but it would actually detract depth from the game. When stomping players, you need to select different tools for each profession. For example, stealth stomping is great vs. Warrior, Engineer, Necro, and occasionally Mesmer, but stealth stomping is garbage vs. Ranger, Guardian, Elementalist, or Thief. If every profession had an AoE interrupt that went about that in different ways, (daze, pull, knockback, whatever) what good would stealth stomping or body block stomping be?

I’d really prefer the status quo on this one. If I was to change anything about the game’s downed states, it’d be to suppress Ranger Pets, Phantasms, and any other kind of tools that players can’t use while downed.

Aberrant.6749:

As far as success rates vs a single stomper #2 between war/necro/eng yea probably similar and they are all rubbish, but eng is the worst out of the rubbish.

Meh.

Aberrant.6749:

I don’t feel “meh” when I feel totally helpless on the ground on eng.

Meh.

Aberrant.6749:

The disparity between these 3 sort of tiers is pretty large. A year into the game… why is it still like this? I had a glimmer of hope back when they redid the ele downed skills that they might balance the 3 tiers, but no… seems they just tossed it all aside

Aberrant.6749:

Chaith.8256:

It in the first 8 seconds of being downed, there’s really no difference between Engineer, Necro, Guardian, Warrior, Ranger. That’s why I consider the downed state differences to be largely unimportant.

Chaith.8256:

I agree it’s slightly inferior in the first 8 seconds

Slight enlightenment/progress seems to have occurred, but you’re still sticking to your preconceptions that eng downed isn’t the worst in the face of excellent reasoning.

If some one makes a valid point I’m always willing to give it to them. I just haven’t agreed with what you’ve said.

Meh.

In all seriousness, I just worded the first quote wrong. I then believed the Engineer downed state to be .000000005% worse than Necro/War and similar professions in the first 8 seconds. If I had the choice of a telegraphed pull vs a telegraphed fear or telegraphed Knockdown, I think I would struggle and then realize that they are all situationally used, and around the same usefulness. So I didn’t become more ‘enlightened’ as a direct result of your Vulcan logic.

Why don’t you propose some changes to the Engineer downed state so it’s more equal instead of being insignificantly worse?

It’s that insignificant that I am starting to wonder if posting in this thread was worth the keystrokes. Haha.

Live long and prosper.

Cynz.9437:

mid of week, mid day…. <_<

Yep … we’re at 10:33 EST and only 219 accounts tried tPvP today. I don’t see how that is any better. EU, 758.

Halcyon.7352:

They were considerably slower at launch. Just saying!

15% slower if I remember correctly.

Tbh, I think it should be slightly faster. I wouldn’t go faster than a 10% buff, though. I say this because at long range I have to calculate where the enemy will be up to 900 range from where they currently are. That’s a huge amount of guesswork. It’s rather unfriendly to new Engineers. The hatred for Grenades is almost common for every starting Engineer. It’s like the taste of alcohol. Who wasn’t completely grossed out by their first beer?

Aberrant.6749:

If you’re already near allies and are just getting ranged by one guy within the range of the pull, then they will probably get you up anyways. It’s also very obvious and pretty slow moving at that kind of range (just like how scorp wire is easy to avoid).

It doesn’t stop the first stomp that the vast majority of the time and it’s situational for when the pull wouldn’t be potentially harmful. That’s the big problem with it.

I can sense that we will be shortly agreeing to disagree – but before let me just say that:

• 1) You say that it doesn’t stop the first stomp the vast majority of the time – I say it has the same success rate among most professions, with an exception to the special kids that play Ele/Mesmer/Thief, who have movement skills. Blind, Stability, Invuln, stealth, or don’t stomp at all. This is the general rule for a reason. That’s why the vast majority don’t work – because people don’t stomp when they know they can’t finish it, generally.

• 2) Using it on enemies from afar is a useful, but situational usage. It does suck that it’s slow from afar, but hey, it’s worked in my favor before. What ends up happening to Engineers is that they use it on an enemy stomping them (melee range.) You claim that it’s useless the majority of the time (gets negated) and you also claim that it is “situational when it wouldn’t be harmful” – IE, harmful most of the time by pulling enemies to you. You play both sides of the coin – “it doesn’t prevent stomps”, as well as “it is harmful most of the time”. It needs to hit to be harmful, haha.

Overall, I feel that there is a lot of over-analysis of the downed state 2 skill – Grappling Hook. Lots of Engineers are unhappy with it, but I think the reality of the situation is that most Engineers should just be like… “meh”.

Aberrant.6749:

Chaith.8256:

I disagree with the Arguments in this thread saying that Engineer downed state is hands down ‘the worst’ in any select game mode. You have to look at the big picture.

It in the first 8 seconds of being downed, there’s really no difference between Engineer, Necro, Guardian, Warrior, Ranger. That’s why I consider the downed state differences to be largely unimportant. However, Thieves, Mesmers, and Eles have the edge by possessing movement abilities. Whether getting out from under a swinging boss, or into the arms of 3 allies waiting to revive, etc.

When you reach the 8 second mark and then there are of course many more imbalances that are introduced. Every 3 skill is highly situational.

• Are you about being revived and trying to overcome minor damage? Well, being a Guardian, or Ranger would really pay.

• Are you about to be stomped/die after exhausting the 2 skill? Well, being a Thief or Engi would really pay.

• Are you in a downed fight, or just want to obliterate a PvE mob to rally? Well, being a Ranger, Mesmer, Necro, or Warrior especially makes you pretty much auto-win.

It’s really complicated. Every profession is great at certain situations. I agree that Engineer and Necro are among the less likely overall to be useful – and the downed state damage of Engi needs to be buffed. (Ranger downed state damage is around 2k per second with pet, that’s only a minor decrease from the regular state.) Vengeance is extremely powerful too, the Pet Revive is near unstoppable, there are some that could use toning down, for sure. But I would be against any drastic changes.

The big diff is between the aoe cc’s and the single target projectile pulls within the first 8s.

Even vs. the other single target 2’s… War at least knocks them down in place and doesn’t aid them if they are trying to get to you. Necro at least fears them away so they need to run back.

Tbh I could live with the eng 3 skill (although inferior to wars 3 after dealing with the same rubbish), but that single target pull is just pathetic.

It needs something either to improve the 2 or to help more if we do manage to get to 3 to be on par with the other non-mes/thief/ele classes.

Overall I find the downed state balance is horrid and inexcusable at this point in the game..

The Engineer downed 2 has pros as well as cons. You only see the cons. I like pulling in foes that are ranged body beating me down so my allies can pound on them. You can pull enemies in, and hit them with the high damage knockback, so there’s synergy. I agree it’s slightly inferior in the first 8 seconds, but personally as long as it prevents my stomper from stomping me, I’m pretty satisfied.

I disagree with the Arguments in this thread saying that Engineer downed state is hands down ‘the worst’ in any select game mode. You have to look at the big picture.

It in the first 8 seconds of being downed, there’s really no difference between Engineer, Necro, Guardian, Warrior, Ranger. That’s why I consider the downed state differences to be largely unimportant. However, Thieves, Mesmers, and Eles have the edge by possessing movement abilities. Whether getting out from under a swinging boss, or into the arms of 3 allies waiting to revive, etc.

When you reach the 8 second mark and then there are of course many more imbalances that are introduced. Every 3 skill is highly situational.

• Are you about being revived and trying to overcome minor damage? Well, being a Guardian, or Ranger would really pay.

• Are you about to be stomped/die after exhausting the 2 skill? Well, being a Thief or Engi would really pay.

• Are you in a downed fight, or just want to obliterate a PvE mob to rally? Well, being a Ranger, Mesmer, Necro, or Warrior especially makes you pretty much auto-win.

It’s really complicated. Every profession is great at certain situations. I agree that Engineer and Necro are among the less likely overall to be useful – and the downed state damage of Engi needs to be buffed. (Ranger downed state damage is around 2k per second with pet, that’s only a minor decrease from the regular state.) Vengeance is extremely powerful too, the Pet Revive is near unstoppable, there are some that could use toning down, for sure. But I would be against any drastic changes.

coglin.1867:

Granted, I know chaith was being genuinely helpful, why are we so quick to push everyone in that direction when the OP and certainly the title, were pretty clear in defining an elixir build?

I consider builds with Elixir H, Elixir B, Elixir S, and a kit to be elixir builds. So I’m not pushing him away from Elixir builds? I’m pushing him away from 5 Elixir builds.

clint.5681:

Chaith.8256:

clint.5681:

What if i told you people are still at work in NA

Oh. That’s where the 3,X00,000 buyers were at today. Silly of me to have forgotten.

Dont forget again

I’ll try, sir. Sorry sir.

milo.6942:

lol the dev reply was removed

Indeed.

We’ll just have to see how it goes as more people get on. 72 people have done team tPvP on NA as of last update.

clint.5681:

What if i told you people are still at work in NA

Oh. That’s where the 3,X00,000 buyers were at today. Silly of me to have forgotten.

Zaviel.1245:

My favorite build on my favorite class has been gutted.

I’ve played GW2 pretty hardcore when it was launched and continued for quite some time. A few months ago I decided to take a break, only to come back and see that Turrets are completely ruined. I noticed that Rifle Turret no longer bled, and Rocket no longer burned.

After research I found out that they instead scale with power now, but their damage is laughable. Testing things out on the PvP dummies with Berserker gear really hit it home.
Time it took to kill the Heavy Dummy. Overcharges included, as well as Rifled Turret Barrel trait.
Rifle: 1:58.5
Rocket: 1:06.4
Thumber: 2:20.3

Turrets used to be great, they were my favorite build… now i guess I’ll go back to HGH in hopes of maybe one day turrets are useful beyond pushing people around with a trait.

Turrets do not scale on power. There was a time where the tooltips were displaying values that were based on the user’s power – but still doing static damage. Your rocket should hit dummies for around 1300 whether you’re completely naked, or completely berserker.

At the time of this post, 5:57pm Eastern, before leaderboards update at 6:14pm Eastern, there are about 637 people Ranked in Team Queue (EU). Fair enough.

In NA? 35. 35 People have played the competitive GW2 team format since the patch hit today. After the patch updated, I waited in queue for 40 minutes before people from our Guild made a second group, to which the queues instantly popped. We were the only 10 people ranked for the next update too, lol. That’s just insane, my brain can’t even deal.

As a player of “Triple A” MMOs because they are massive, I’ve always been aware of the pond size of the NA PvP scene. But this made me feel really claustrophobic all of a sudden.

I’m concerned, but also curious why EU has 18 times the players in the hours following a major patch? I would think prime-time hours play a big part, but dang, son.

How are you guys enjoying the ‘more intimate than ever’ NA PvP scene?

Victory.2879:

Why are grenades soooooooo slow? Try throwing them out at max range when you are running in a zerg and watch them explode at your feet- anyone with a speed buff can pretty much outrun them.

Halving the time it takes for them to travel to max range would be a much loved improvement.

You have to predict where they will be.. ie, if people are in combat movement speed, you have to know how far ahead to throw them. This means you can only hit people running in a straight trajectory, but that’s the normally not difficult to find.

If you line up your grenade at the feet of the target, you’re doing it wrong. Only do this if you have an immobilize, supply crate stun, or knockdown. Of course be on the watch for your allies’ disables, it’s basically free grenade hits.

If you’re used to Necro marks it’ll take a while. If constantly recalculating the flight time vs. movement speed is not fun for you, then it’s probably best to look at other options.

Dr Hashbrown.7104:

Got champion genius already so I’m allowed to do whatever I want

Nice!

You can try the build you’re suggesting right now, on live. No need to theorycraft, go and make it a meta build right now, if you’d like :P. There’s basically nothing changing in it when the patch drops. My experience with 30/30/x/x/x builds are that they’re generally pretty user unfriendly in PvP.

Dr Hashbrown.7104:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fcAQJAqelIqiY3zSZF17IyoCdGoH5FfhXfeIXsFEC-TkAAzEfp+y9l5L5X2vGCMFB

It’s just a suggestion, if this becomes the meta, I better get paid lol
If you’re wondering why I used V on explosives in the master tier, it’s cause that’s where inc power will be if anet decides to make that change.

You might can make some tweaks and remove grenade kit for flamethrower, and deal more burns

So I see you like being very dead in sPvP, lol.

Stark.1350:

Why grenades or bombs if I’m not traited for them though?

Well, you’d obviously trait for them, haha. Here’s what a common PvP HGH Rifle build looks like:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fcAQFAUlspSXnvSiF17IyoCdmoHPGlNZfewWtFEC-TkAg0CnI0RFkLIjOycs5MEB

I’ve recently taken a liking to Elixir X, and Lyssa runes when used Together. You can wipe conditions and seriously demolish people 1v1 with Rampage. After considering Elixir X a joke for about a year, I’ve recently tried it in this build:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fcAQFAUlspiYnvSdF87IyoCdmoHPGlNZfewWtFEC-TkAg0CnIKSVkrITRyisFNEB

And found it very strong variant, except against D/P or S/D thieves.

Stark.1350:

Hi everyone!

I’m not much of a min/max type player – it makes my head hurt – but I still like to make sure I have my build set right to maximize what I’m doing.

Currently I run rifle/elixir.

My accessories are berzerker and my main set is knight’s. Power/Precision/Toughness.

I run six runes of the traveler.

I run Elixir B, Elixir H, Elixir S, Elixir U and Elixir X.

In Alchemy, I run Cleansing Formula 409, Fast-Acting Elixirs and Potent Elixirs.

On my weapon, I have the 5% increased damage rune.

What can I change/switch around to help maximize this build? What food would you recommend?

I appreciate the help all, thank you.

While it’s totally possible to play Engineer without any kits, it’s very difficult.

The only abilities you can use on cooldown as offensive attacks are Blunderbus and Jump Shot. If you use them on cooldown, it’s only occupying 12.50% of your time, lol. I personally cannot play the game while auto-attacking 87.50% of the time when attempting to focus a target down. Of course Elixir plays help to cut down on the time you’re spamming Hip Shot, but it’s still unbearably boring, in my opinion.

If you don’t run Grenades (as I do) or bombs, or any other kits as a side-arm to the Rifle, I feel that takes away a lot of the positive Engineer experiences when fighting.

If you aren’t a fan of Grenades, I recommend you try this build:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fcAQFAUlspSXnvSyF17IxIFdW0gUkX/K6xjp8kB-TkAg0CnI0RFkLIjOycs5MEB

You can throw the 10 pts from tools back into Firearms if you desire, that’s up to you. The traits are not super important.

Toolkit is an amazing aid to Rifle. Throw Wrench is extremely effective when dropped on enemies knocked down by your Overcharged Shot, as it hits them twice – Guaranteed. The block makes you a lot more survivable, and your Magnet will at worst force dodges, and at best, pull people out of position, and into lethal combos.

Try: Magnet → Prybar → Overcharged Shot → Throw Wrench → Net Shot → Jump Shot in, → Blunderbus.

This combo is much easier to succeed with, as opposed to just going ham with the Rifle alone. It’s going to up your damage more than you could imagine when done right, too.

I think having two weapon skill bars is the minimum to enjoy any profession in Guild Wars 2 – I was always confused why Anet allows potentially new Engineers to be able to build without the option of switching weapons. So whatever kit you decide to use, I recommend you always have one with Elixir builds. Good luck.

Amstel Steel.2058:

NevirSayDie.6235:

Ezrael.6859:

From ONE Scepter auto-attack chain- 4 stacks of Bleeding for 8 seconds. 6 seconds of Burning and 5 seconds of Poison. That’s 1992 + 2556 + 615.

Actually, scepter 1 applies a single 4-second bleed. Dhuumfire is a 2-second burn. I understand your frustration, but please try to research a bit before calling for nerfs.

Dhuumfire can scale to 6 seconds in spvp although I doubt it needs to be nerfed with the state the warrior is in. I made a build being described and it does good damage. Little squishy even with ds, and I’m sure someone could make a better build.
http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=;04dZ;1kHVF0343J-K0;9;4TJ;0J39A48;529-ENW8;28ZF18ZF15VR

I tend to agree with the OP in that conditions need to be timed and not spammed, but I dunno maybe spam is just a part of the method to this madness.

Not sure how you’re getting +200% condition duration to make a 2s Dhuumfire proc into a 6s one, to be quite honest with ya.

Justin ODell.9517:

Jae.5138:

who says yo ucan’t create topics on things you’ve discussed already?

Code of Conduct

• Read the forum before asking a question. There’s a good chance your question has already been answered.
• Use the search function before posting. This will focus the discussion and facilitate a response.
• Avoid frivolous and duplicate postings.
• Do not spam. This includes bumping threads or making posts that lack content.

Probably not going to get a moderator on you, but it is preferred.

Use the search function?

Is there a trick to using the search function? No matter what I do, even copy pasting the thread title and searching the proper forum – there’s no way to get any search results.

Nova Stiker.8396:

TL;DR

• Conditions needs to have timing in their mechanics.
• Check out my suggestion thread of my thoughts on improving conditions and boons.

The problem you’re describing is very real at times. There is often a lack of timing. However, you are being very biased as there are tons of really bad times to use powerful conditions. Using Pin Down right as the Engineer drops the Healing Turret makes me want to curl up in a ball and die, for example.

The timing mechanic is supposed to be condition removal. In design, you have to time your conditions right after the condition removal is gone. The key is to understand the target’s condition removal system, whether it’s 2 condition removal every 15-20s with the Engineer’s Healing Turret, or the 3 condition removal every 10s from the Ranger’s Empathic Bond ticks.

Unfortunately, this mechanic is often very out of balance. Here’s my take on it, and my suggestions to bring it back.

• Condition removal is not strategic enough for some professions. Often, it happens fairly regularly, but is nearly useless at countering condition bursts. Example: What is an Elixir based Engineer going to do when getting Fear spiked? Cast .5 second abilities that remove 1 condition at a time and get interrupted by more Fear? There are, of course, lots of great condition wipes available, but they’re extremely costly to damage/support. Engineers can’t run Elixir C in good conscience, Guardians usually can’t run Contemplation of Purity either. This is because conditions are so re-applicable and not on long enough cooldowns for players to feel punished for getting all their conditions removed. Wiping your conditions that the enemy worked to apply hardly punishes him, so why not just run something offensive and destroy him first? One is much better off just using Lyssa runes and the profession’s natural evasion and this enables the user to have no problem forgetting condition removal all-together while running a full damage build. That’s why we see the prevalence of this rune on Thieves, Warriors, DPS Guards, and Mesmers.

My suggestion regarding condition removal: Across all 8 professions I feel the number of conditions removed by each condition removal should be higher. I feel that condition removals should also be more infrequent. The chess-style countering of conditions are good for the game – high risk, high reward. For this to actually be effective though, the cooldowns of the condition applying abilities would have to be slightly higher, too.

• Conditions have generally no ‘big’ telegraphs. Necromancer is most guilty of this, as pretty much every ability they have besides the new Signet of Spite is nearly animation-less and has no projectile visual. Ranger is guilty of this too. So much of the profession’s damage is folded into the passive auto-attack – there’s just no way to actively react to 120 projectiles a minute.

My suggestion regarding telegraphing: Condition applying abilities get some updated animations, and become more visual. Playing the advocate here, what if Necromancer Marks flew through the air to land where they were placed? (Not my idea). What if Necromancer Scepter attacks had a bloody trail back to the Necromancer? What if the Spirit Ranger’s Shortbow had most of the conditions folded in to the 2 & 4 skills, and they were given better animations & skill shot mechanics? Currently, it’s just very unclear when to use your active defenses against condition applying abilities because some of them are too generic and and have extremely short cooldowns.

TLDR, I think if the Skills and Balance team made:

1) Condition abilities telegraphed well.
2) Damaging conditions more present on higher cooldown abilities than spammy ones.
3) Condition removal more infrequent.
4) Condition removal removed more conditions.

Then we’d see a lot better plays, Rangers and Necros could actually shine through player skill, and finally, the ever coveted impeccable timing that would be required for Condition users to demolish players.

Phineas Poe.3018:

I don’t know if ArenaNet is reading this thread, but I get the logic behind these changes, and I get the logic behind why Elixir Infused Bombs might be buffed to scale by 60% of your Healing Power. And you know what, maybe it won’t be. But even if it doesn’t, I think as a class we’ve received more than a lions share of buffs the past 3-4 months to where I cannot even be remotely disappointed regardless of what happens.

Well, incoming disappointment. There’s no conceivable way it is going from 10% to 60% scaling. That would be a 600% increase in the healing gained from healing power.

Dec 10th – It’s going to reward the Engineer 15% additional bonus healing on the Elixir-Infused-Bombs, based on the Engineer’s healing power. I’d stake everything I know about this game on that, haha. I am very sure.

Getting stomps in a 1vX? Elixir S will always trump Elixir Gun. Invuln Stomp and stealth stomp.

Baron NJS.5704:

Mask ur not gonna put 20 into Explosives to get IP?

honovi- Medkit provides more might overall with noble runes/sigil of battle/enhanced performance
whats your build? can u link it

Mask misspoke. He meant that you’d take Expose Weakness and then IP over Enhanced Performance. You don’t need Enhanced Performance – just take Elixir H and proc HgH, you will notice a difference, but you should have no problem reaching the proper stacks. It’s overall better.. remember, you have no points in tools for a better heal recharge on Medkit, and yet you have all the Elixir Traits to buff up Elixir H. The might stacking is great, but not everything.

Your non-grenade non-bomb kit PvE build won’t be as good. Bomb/Nade are the only damage focused kits, as opposed to utility. So, just think about it from a pure damage output perspective – par for the course, which every profession usually has, that’s two offensive weapon skill bars. Bringing say, a Rifle and then bringing .5 of a damage kit generally makes one sub-par.

I feel that An Elixir Gun / Flamethrower power build is probably the closest PvE contender. This is just a build I threw together:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fcAQFAUl0pqbnpSrF17IyIFdGpB6Rd5XjoIF5XjB-TkAg0CnI4SxljLDXSuscNsA

Modified Amunition will be decent after the patch, as it will affect your damage in Kits. Good PvE trait. No Nades or Bombs as promised.

Yep, that build is getting the D.

You’re going to have to pick an adept trait in explosives that’s really bad in order to get Incendiary Powder. Like, we’re talkin’ Acidic Elixirs or Exploit Weakness kind of bad. And you can no longer get Enhanced Performance without going like, 30pts into Explosives.

Unless you want to change multiple things, this is what I would do when the patch hits:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fcAQJAqal0picnvSdF17ICoC5loHPGlNZfeQfs1DC-jQCBoOBkWAgEBMHqIasVhFRjVzATxiIq2hAzjgIqGA-e

For sure a nerf, but not the end of the world.

Ditching Enhanced Performance altogether, and getting Elixir H is a good option. You wouldn’t have to change your traits for that.