Guild Wars 2

Vicariuz.1605:

Chaith.8256:

Ithilwen.1529:

To disobey game rules is generally considered cheating. It is certainly unfair to represent yourself as a much lower rated player, to get easy matches and deceive the matchmaker.

Yes, it was cheating by your own definition.

Lol this kind of backfired, the ATs use seeding so using a less established account places you in worse seeding, giving you better chance of tough enemies early on.. but nobody is saying they had a harder time, the mental gymnastics only come out when it can be established that they cheated

It requires far more mental gymnastic to defend the people involved than not. Sorry to burst your bubble here, but as PvPers (which they demonstrate) they aren’t bound by the same attachment to an account as say a PvE player would. That’s why the accounts used weren’t permanently banned, and were only permanently dishonored. That keeps the PvE players that paid irl cash for some one to play their account, which means your account should be banned. What they did violates numerous aspects of the rules of conduct (members of ABJ). If Anet’s stance is that it is permissible to dodge bans/dishonor by acquiring a new account (they have ip banned for less), then they effectively have no desire to provide integrity to their game, and they need to make that clear. Because, it is obvious only a certain other subset of players think this is justified. A very small minority.

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/legal/guild-wars-2-rules-of-conduct/

I think it is important to note, that had they played and won the first AT on their main accounts, they would be receiving praise. They CHOSE a different outcome.

I haven’t defended any actions that break ToS, save the moral outrage. Only thing I’ve done is NOT ignore the facts to fit in with the false narrative that banned players circumvent punishment. I’m just putting a little logic into 2 pages of pure emotion. Again, just for you, they didn’t dodge ban because Chris Cleary ( Developer ) has stated on reddit that they are free to play new accounts and enjoy the game, as long as they play on their mains, under threat of more severe punishment. I’m completely impartial by stating so.

Edit, linked reddit post because either nobody believes me or nobody is reading my words: https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/6vzcin/permanent_dishonored_players_to_participate_in/dm52kqw/?context=1000

Crinn.7864:

Chaith.8256:

Vavume.8065:

These dishonoured players are making a mockery of the devs, and the devs are really not helping themselves with their flip flop actions.

They’re not making a mockery of ArenaNet as permanently dishonouring all their existing accounts is officially clarified on reddit to be the intended punishment. Future accounts were not mentioned and the word permanent still accurately describes how long the dishonor on their accounts will last.

Tl;dr, players wanting to believe ArenaNet has reduced original punishment but it’s as intended

You’re splitting some seriously thin hairs.

ArenaNet indicated that they where applying the punishment to their accounts and all alt accounts, they did not specify that it only applied to current alt ccounts, and moreover it’s trivially easy to extend “alt accounts” to future alt accounts, particularly since extending it to all future alt accounts obeys the spirit of the ban. Trying to argue that “alt accounts” only includes “current alt accounts” is a sketchy argument even by lawyer standards.

Also judging by the language used when they first took action, I’m pretty sure the punishment was intended to be permeant, and the recent change of face is some internal politicking that happened between then and now.

READ, it was confirmed by a Dev on reddit to be exactly as I describe I’m just relaying that information not splitting hairs

Ithilwen.1529:

To disobey game rules is generally considered cheating. It is certainly unfair to represent yourself as a much lower rated player, to get easy matches and deceive the matchmaker.

Yes, it was cheating by your own definition.

Lol this kind of backfired, the ATs use seeding so using a less established account places you in worse seeding, giving you better chance of tough enemies early on.. but nobody is saying they had a harder time, the mental gymnastics only come out when it can be established that they cheated

Thing is that I think Rifle might become meta alongside Holosmith vs. players. if Holosmith becames a meta build and utilizes rifle strongly, than it’s kind of premature to buff it

Ithilwen.1529:

Chaith.8256:

Vavume.8065:

These dishonoured players are making a mockery of the devs, and the devs are really not helping themselves with their flip flop actions.

They’re not making a mockery of ArenaNet as permanently dishonouring all their existing accounts is officially clarified on reddit to be the intended punishment. Future accounts were not mentioned and the word permanent still accurately describes how long the dishonor on their accounts will last.

Tl;dr, players wanting to believe ArenaNet has reduced original punishment but it’s as intended

You miss the point. There’s no punishment. Let’s see; get paid $400 usd to cheat in a tourney. Account gets banned. Buy a new account. You’re still $300 + USD in the black. That’s not punishment.

I’m just stating the punishment is working as intended, clearly you have a horse in the race tho’

Vavume.8065:

These dishonoured players are making a mockery of the devs, and the devs are really not helping themselves with their flip flop actions.

They’re not making a mockery of ArenaNet as permanently dishonouring all their existing accounts is officially clarified on reddit to be the intended punishment. Future accounts were not mentioned and the word permanent still accurately describes how long the dishonor on their accounts will last.

Tl;dr, players wanting to believe ArenaNet has reduced original punishment but it’s as intended

Adamantium.3682:

Like the idea, think your examples are a little OP but much more interesting overall than “+5% damage when heat above 50%” or something like that.

I would add that the heat mechanic would be great if it affected other types of skills besides just Exceed. I think it could be done in a way that’s not overpowered but makes it not feel like you’re missing out to use anything but all Exceed skills.

Elixirs = AOE damage when drinking or throwing Elixirs (old explosive elixir trait)
Turrets = Overcharge lasts twice as long
Gadgets = Activates Static Discharge on use
Kits = Drop a trail of burning light on the ground when entering kit (toned down version of Prime Light Beam field)

And Exceed skills really should get something above 100%! Not a deal breaker if they don’t, I just don’t like how ECSU only adds extra heat mechanicns to sword.

Ecsu adds to adept middle condition removal over 100%

Vagrant.7206:

Chaith.8256:

Vagrant.7206:

I agree with this idea — weaver got all of their weapons revised for their new class mechanic, why can’t we have our existing weapons revised to match our new class mechanic?

Chaith

A lot of buffs, would probably have to accompany nerfs to the Photon Forge

Not necessarily. Many of the suggested buffs are QoL improvements that would make our core weapons not be as weak as they currently. It would also be an incentive for people to buy PoF.

If you look at our core weapons and current meta builds, you realize we spend almost no time on our core weapons, because they are so pitifully weak compared to our kits. This would help bring them up to par without being OP.

If PvP meta Holosmith build runs Rifle it will mean a lot of buffs, I used it all weekend and you’re using the Rifle half the time.

I found sword/shield to be more useful — even against rifle holos. I would lead with sword 3 for quickness, rapidly switch into PF and burst, then throw elixir S, rinse and repeat til enemy was dead from nasty spikes.

I also found shield to be hilariously effective against rifle holos. I would reflect most of their shots back/block them, and then proceed to whomp hard on them.

I had the opposite experience.. shield reflects once every 30 seconds and when they’re in Sword/Shield, Photon Forge obliterates it with Stability & Melee strikes slicing through the reflects or stun.

Vagrant.7206:

I agree with this idea — weaver got all of their weapons revised for their new class mechanic, why can’t we have our existing weapons revised to match our new class mechanic?

Chaith

A lot of buffs, would probably have to accompany nerfs to the Photon Forge

Not necessarily. Many of the suggested buffs are QoL improvements that would make our core weapons not be as weak as they currently. It would also be an incentive for people to buy PoF.

If you look at our core weapons and current meta builds, you realize we spend almost no time on our core weapons, because they are so pitifully weak compared to our kits. This would help bring them up to par without being OP.

If PvP meta Holosmith build runs Rifle it will mean a lot of buffs, I used it all weekend and you’re using the Rifle half the time.

Bella Kim.4061:

Scrapper >>>>> Holosmith
- Holosmith got better damage??? But any class can go for high damage build.

You’re the only person that is not happy there is finally an elite alternative to being a Scrapper meat shield. Turn that frown upside down, sunshine

Bella Kim.4061:

Dragonhunter >>>>> Firebrand
- Firebrand got better support??? But there are many other class that can support better.

Yes, Dragonhunter is god like compared to Firebrand so far, especially in personal survivability which is what counts. Dragonhunter counters most (95%) of PoF.

Bella Kim.4061:

Herald >>>>> Renegade
- Herald trait line and Dragon stance are way better.

Yes, Herald is still extremely viable, and everywhere on the map at once in the right hands. Renegade is crap on a stick right now, zero personal survivability and I haven’t even been hit by one all demo weekend due to each one dying before getting the chance.

Bella Kim.4061:

Chronomancer = Mirage
- Mirage and Chronomancer are well balanced.

No, and the rest of the experienced PvP community will near unanimously agree that Mirage misses the personal survivability of Chronomancer’s shield and has fewer conquest playmakers like Continuum Split&Eliteskill & Shield #5. It’s objectively a downgrade so far in PvP, maybe new methods of using Mirage will change that in the future

Bella Kim.4061:

Berserker = Spellbreaker
- Berserker and Spellbreaker are well balanced.

No, Spellbreaker is the evolved form of Berserker – way more relevant with boon rips, way more survivable, able to kite and live 1v2 vs. nearly anything better than any class I’ve seen so far. Able to fit in more mobility. Berserker is only as good as his ability to land Skullgrinder, while very strong Berserker is just not nearly as versatile and useful as Spellbreaker.

Bella Kim.4061:

Holosmith is the worst PoF elite spec

Scrapper
-Scrapper can do decent damage if you take Marauder/Paladin
-Scrapper can evade while doing leap finisher
-Scrapper can block and Scrapper can AoE stun
-Scrapper can remove condis and reduce incoming damage
-Scrapper can CC from 1500 distance
-Scrapper can go into stealth and reset the fight
-Scrapper can Revive and Finish from long range
-Scrapper have access to superspeed, protection,stability,lightning field and etc.
-Scrapper can heal back up very fast
-Scrapper can survive 2vs1 for very long time
- etc. etc. etc. etc.

Holosmith
- Holosmith can do High burst damage
- Holosmith can do High burst damage
- Holosmith can do High burst damage
- Holosmith can do High burst damage
- And what else??? Oh yeah!!! Holosmith can do High burst damage

But the other 8 class can also go for High burst damage build.

Scrapper can play many roles.

Holosmith cannot play bunker.
Holosmith cannot play support.
Holosmith cannot play assassin. (Daredevil and Herald are better assassins)

With the DPS meta, all Scrapper does is exist on a side node and surviving – carry potential only if you’re able to survive an assault by 2 or more people, relies on enemies misplaying. You can’t really count on reviving, it’s not a role anymore unless you can pull it off. Scrapper can’t support anymore than Holosmith, (Healing Turret and Elixir Gun are core Engi) which is sad.

Holosmith can be an extremely mobile +1 similar to Herald and it has way huger teamfight carry potential than Daredevil. It’s not inferior to either Herald or Daredevil in carry potential, just arguably survivability.

coro.3176:

Killyox.3950:

I don’t think we need to be afraid of nerfs.

ANet said they want it to be high risk high reward dmg elite spec. I for one welcome DMG build that doesn’t rely on juggling multiple kits.

For world stuff like events, levelling, pve I like Scrapper a lot but sometimes miss that OOMPH! which I get out of Holosmith

What’s the risk though? Compared to base engi, you’re getting way more damage for free. On top of that, you also get a ton of sustain from the healing trait and some good cc/utility from the PF skills.

Core Engi is not melee, you’re right in the clusterfudge with Holo. Overheating is a devastating risk too, sometimes you have to overheat to pump out enough hits to rally a teammate or something

You don’t get moa with Holosmith

LilBiM.3581:

I would like to see more weapons on the Engineer have additional mechanics when the Engineer has 50+ heat. E.g.

While above 50 heat do the following:
Pistol – 1 Skill – Apply another bleed stack
Pistol – 3 Skill – Gain ammunition (max 2, clip reload 1s) for this skill
Pistol – 5 Skill – Knockdown for 1 sec all moving opponents
Shield – 4/5 Skill – When struck while these skills are active drop Throw Gunk at your location. Only happens once per skill activation.
Rifle – 2 Skill – Apply a Timed Charge on opponents who are hit by this skill.
Rifle – 3 Skill – Gain up to three ammunition, ammunition reload (time between when you can fire the next shot after first using this skill: 0.5secs)
Rifle – 4 Skill – Pierces and is Unblockable

I believe that some changes like this would be appropriate for the Holosmith’s design concept.

A lot of buffs, would probably have to accompany nerfs to the Photon Forge

Dragonhunter beats the crap out of most PoF specs in conquest, it wrecks Scourge, Holosmith, all the weaker specs as well. Only thing I’m not sure about is the viability when beating on Spellbreakers

Build #1 makes no sense, 3 gyros without gyro trait, stability gives might trait with no stability, and Rifle Turret in a condi build,

Probably scrapper the whole build and start from scratch, For P/P Engi start with Healing Turret, Alchemy, and Firearms, and customize your build with the third spec
and utilities

Instead of pressing Photon Forge 12345, press F5 before that happens, or slot Grandmaster #3 and spamming 12345 to your heart’s content will only put the 4k DoT on you.

Edit: It dealt 3,199 up front, 796 × 5 over 5s. Just over 7k for the misplay, meh.

Phineas Poe.3018:

insanemaniac.2456:

eg 5 and toolbelt cleanse a condi too since they are elixirs

That’s still not very much in the grand scheme, especially with the Heart of Thorns condi spam.

Alchemy ultimately has much more identity than a “condi cleanse” tree, and it’s currently taken for much more than that.

Whether Holosmith can survive without it remains to be seen. But it won’t be explicitly because of a lack of condition cleanse without it.

Passive Elixir B, S, Healing Mist, Super Elixir, all equate to around 9 conditions removed a minute if spammed on cooldown, it amounts to something

Edit: Like 3 instant condi removals if you get jumped by 3 people and can’t get a cast off as you get bursted down.

Novuake.2691:

Chaith.8256:

In PvP rabid condi engi with elixir X is an A tier build…

Double incendiary ammo was the real nerf but gadgeteer is decent as a replacement

How so? What gadgets are you using that actually make it worth running.

Just Rocket Boots!

Dirame.8521:

I think we’ve gotten away from what the topic actually is about; THE TRAITS. The skills could be the best thing in the world, but the traits are a disservice to those skills.

All you need to do is take anyone of the builds you’ve apparently theorycrafted and ask yourself whether those builds would really be significantly different depending on the traits you selected in the Holosmith line. The answer I’m predicting would be; no.

What you will end up wishing is that you could use the Holosmith with a different trait line other than the Holosmith’s own trait line.

No, originally it was a problem you had with too little interaction between Holosmith and core spec traits. The Holosmith traits are VERY good, you would never hypothetically wish to just have photon forge separate from Holosmith traits in any game mode.

Holosmith builds will play so differently based on trait choices, especially the master and grandmaster choices.

Your original complaint was the one that subjectively had a basis for argument

Phineas Poe.3018:

Chaith.8256:

First we agreed earlier that it’s not the Scrapper’s role to land the killing blow on anything, it’s a tank. This creates the need for an updated DPS role who’s job is to do that, like the Holosmith. Now you’re claiming Scrapper is a tank that can chase down and murder things without any trouble.. needless to say you’re greatly exaggerating the Scrapper’s killing power or have gotten too used to killing up-levels in WvW. Contradicting your past posts just to act like Holosmith is redundant lol

Chaith, I am not contradicting myself. WvW and PvP are played very differently and have very different metas. Scrapper in WvW is not a tank. It’s a frontline DPS. It’s not uncommon to see people wear full Marauder or a mix of Marauder armor with Berserker jewelry/weapons. How glassy you get depends greatly on how much condi damage the other servers are running, the quality of your guardians and elementalists, and your own personal ability as a player.

I’m sure you were being tongue-in-cheek with regard to “killing up-levels,” but we are years removed from the GWEN/hammer-train meta where everyone ran PVT armor. Celestial is just about as tanky as builds get these days. Like I said, man. You’ve been gone a while and a lot has changed. We don’t need a melee DPS spec in WvW and we don’t need a roaming spec. We don’t need a selfish DPS spec for PvE either.

We need something that we can call our own.

It doesn’t have to be a unique boon anything, but it’s kind of pathetic that Druid, a support spec, gets Grace of the Land and we get jack. The only thing we contribute to a raid group is Pinpoint Precision, which is barely useful and is no where near as big a raid buff as other classes contribute.

You keep going back to WvW group content, I’m just talking about Scrapper’s limitations in a small scale environment like roaming or PvP. But just to entertain the idea, if Scrapper is such a great frontline DPS that can murder people in WvW group content, why do you also claim Holosmith needs to fix the problem of no WvW groups want a Scrapper?

So about: We need something that we can call our own. Holosmiths can still bring Pinpoint Distribution.

Holosmith in my prediction will be already more viable in more game modes than Scrapper, personally I think having a sick group buff on top of Pinpoint will make Holosmith highly sought after in every game mode.

Upgraded an already competitive PvE raid performance, check,
Upgrade for PvP, check,
Upgrade for roaming encounters in WvW, check,
WvW raids, holy hell we need Holosmiths in here?

Holosmith looks OP already

Edit: Maybe ArenaNet will make Scrapper into a master of WvW group content as it’s much more suited to doing so in it’s concept. Honestly I’m not sure why otherwise anyone would play a Scrapper after Holosmith comes out, except if you like really drawn out fights in PvP

Try targeting them first

Dirame.8521:

Chaith.8256:

Dirame.8521:

Chaith.8256:

Dirame.8521:

Chaith.8256:

The question ITT is whether Holosmith is poorly designed or not without more integrated traits, and added GvG utility, I didn’t think we’d argue the need for a functioning DPS spec with gap closers among other DPS tools.

Would you agree that a “functioning” DPS spec needs to actually be able to counter one of the other professions in order to be effective as a dps spec in PvP?

Yeah, but I’m sure Holosmith will counter lots of professions – Weaver, Spellbreaker, Scourge, these all look very fragile against power spike

I sincerely doubt we’d be able to take on Spellbreakers and Scourge due to their boon hate and condi hate, of which we are currently packing ALOT of boons and condis. Arguments could be made for Weaver but Holosmith is definitely not a direct counter to it when comparing skills, traits and potential combos one might use on each class.

On the contrary i see the counters to scourge spellbreaker and weaver being pure power with not a reliance on boons and holo can certainly do that

Even if you go pure power, you’re going to need stability to fight any of those professions. Scourge and Spellbreaker will definitely take advantage of that, Scourge especially. Spellbreaker doesn’t even need you to have boons, in fact they thrive both when you have boons AND when you don’t. Not to mention their F2 ability which counters all things and will definitely be something for any melee character to avoid getting hit by.

When it comes to going up against other classes, the Holosmith has no immediately apparent advantage. It has no boon strip, no blocks, just CC and a 2 types of condis, burning and vulnerability. If it had any immediately apparent counters, I would concede that it could take down any of these professions.

You don’t need stability to fight things that hard counter boons, that’s contradictory.

Look no farther for mechanics where Holosmith will counter other professions, it’s called persistent high sustained power dmg and a few good bursts on top.

Think of it like Invo Rev in its prime

Dirame.8521:

Chaith.8256:

Dirame.8521:

Chaith.8256:

The question ITT is whether Holosmith is poorly designed or not without more integrated traits, and added GvG utility, I didn’t think we’d argue the need for a functioning DPS spec with gap closers among other DPS tools.

Would you agree that a “functioning” DPS spec needs to actually be able to counter one of the other professions in order to be effective as a dps spec in PvP?

Yeah, but I’m sure Holosmith will counter lots of professions – Weaver, Spellbreaker, Scourge, these all look very fragile against power spike

I sincerely doubt we’d be able to take on Spellbreakers and Scourge due to their boon hate and condi hate, of which we are currently packing ALOT of boons and condis. Arguments could be made for Weaver but Holosmith is definitely not a direct counter to it when comparing skills, traits and potential combos one might use on each class.

On the contrary i see the counters to scourge spellbreaker and weaver being pure power with not a reliance on boons and holo can certainly do that

Phineas Poe.3018:

First we agreed earlier that it’s not the Scrapper’s role to land the killing blow on anything, it’s a tank. This creates the need for an updated DPS role who’s job is to do that, like the Holosmith. Now you’re claiming Scrapper is a tank that can chase down and murder things without any trouble.. needless to say you’re greatly exaggerating the Scrapper’s killing power or have gotten too used to killing up-levels in WvW. Contradicting your past posts just to act like Holosmith is redundant lol

Dirame.8521:

Chaith.8256:

The question ITT is whether Holosmith is poorly designed or not without more integrated traits, and added GvG utility, I didn’t think we’d argue the need for a functioning DPS spec with gap closers among other DPS tools.

Would you agree that a “functioning” DPS spec needs to actually be able to counter one of the other professions in order to be effective as a dps spec in PvP?

Yeah, but I’m sure Holosmith will counter lots of professions – Weaver, Spellbreaker, Scourge, these all look very fragile against power spike

Ivantreil.3092:

How many of those counters actually work though, as an engi, calling slick shoes an option is bs, since the nerfs they have not seen a use in a real scenario.

With Gadgeteer builds the added cripple has me considering it

Phineas Poe.3018:

Chaith.8256:

Personally I’m happy that Holosmith addresses the problem of lack of gap closers for close range builds and lack of elite spec dps roles. In my view that addresses the engineers current needs equally or better than the daredevil addressed the thief’s lack of down cleave and survivability.

Dude, what? I think you owe to yourself to play the game a little bit longer before you make these kinds of statements. You’ve been gone a while and the game has changed a lot in your absence.

Not only does engineer not really need gap closures in the current state of the game, especially after the change made to Rocket Boots having 2 uses, but we’re also actually an effective roper/kiter.

Scrapper is actually used on certain raid bosses just on the basis of our significant access to super speed. But just to speak in terms I know you understand, Scrapper’s only real role in PvP currently is deliberately forcing 1v2s on side points. We have no role in team fights beyond power resses nor are we a traditional duelist. It’s not our job to chase anyone because we do not legitimately counter a single class in the current meta.

Just jump into WvW for a bit and see what it’s like while roaming. Between chained cripples with Box of Nails and Glob Shot, between our permanent swiftness and sizable super speed access, and between our stealth access, Scrapper is one of the most formidable roamers in 2017 and can just run away from any fights they’re losing so long as it’s not a thief.

I literally spend hours in WvW each week getting into 1v1s and then promptly kiting people so far away from me that I can even drop out of combat to teleport away when it turns into a 1v2 or 1v3.

You’re taking this so off topic but just to address some comments, I have played the latest Rocket Boots patch extensively, nothing you’re saying applies to me. Perhaps I should have worded it: “Holosmith fills the gap in that Engineer has no DPS builds that are on par outside of PvE” I mention gap closers because Rocket Boots is not quite translating into melee uptime for Scrapper, as I’ve stated in previous responses. It’s also more beneficial to save half or more charges for running due to the loss of another defensive utility.

Also lol @ Glob shot comment and Roaming with Scrapper. So you roam with E-Gun, Tool Kit, and Rocket Boots, Sneak Gyro. Glob Shot is obstructed 75% of the time, Scrapper is the most frustrating spec in PvP/WvW roaming, it’s rendered harmless and only useful in running from 1vX encounters. Scrapper can only kill those who refuse to run and impale themselves on Hammer #1-#2.

I know Engineer’s current role in PvP, and it’s shifted even further away from teamwork/reviving and towards 1vX. It’s not a great role, and core Engineer condi builds are becoming more useful than Scrapper half the time. The Scrapper is great for slow PvP metas where reviving and sustained point pressure are key, but the Engineer class could use a DPS spec for fast, off-point metas to actually contribute instead of being marginalized.

There’s so many reasons why Engineer needs to ditch the Scrapper tank in PvP and WvW roaming for one with actual killing power.

The question ITT is whether Holosmith is poorly designed or not without more integrated traits, and added GvG utility, I didn’t think we’d argue the need for a functioning DPS spec with gap closers among other DPS tools.

Arantheal.7396:

ITT:
People failing to understand that everyone has their favored playstyle(s), therefore imagine others to be stupid for not agreeing with them, and ending at each others throats.
Quit the vitriol and go back on topic, this is not the wvw forum^^

Yes clearly you’re correct in that there are different levels of excitement around Holosmith whether you were looking to GvG vs. PvP or PvE or WvW roam, but the point is slightly deeper than that:

Half ITT believe that Holosmith is a subpar design where the expectation is every elite spec promotes equal inclusiveness and diversity in all environments, and instead in this case, providing new ways of accentuating roles and modes where Engineer is already good at.

The fact is that multiple elite specs accentuate existing roles and already strong presence in certain modes for professions, and Holosmith isn’t crap because it does just that.

Arantheal.7396:

I don’t think we lack any gap-closers anymore. With the recent rocketboots changes, this hole seems filled for me.

Using Rocket Boots to stick to running targets simply doesn’t work with Hammer or melee due to it’s lack of targeting, but I’ve have enjoying it to keep up with Pistol/Pistol builds. More talking about melee uptime than raw movement ability.

ukuni.8745:

The worst part is i suck at pvp and pve now so my argument isnt that strong but from what we know right now holo smith is far to good, it makes condi and power engi alot better for pve, for WvW we might not be number one on the list for GvGs but for solo and small group pvp we are so much better, for spvp holosmith will tank like a scrapper and do far more damage then a scrapper.

with the amount of buffs holosmith will give engi your title should be “why does the rest of engi suck”

It does look extremely strong, will be bringing huge added personal DPS to PvE and add the only Engi damage build on par with others to PvP, needless to say, it looks flavorful and fun. One of the coolest Elite specs other than Weaver, in my honest opinion.

(But muh GvG spot)

Dirame.8521:

Really Chaith… ‘lack of gap closers’? Really?

And you and I know very well that an Elite Spec can be a dps spec whilst also having a bit of support. Dragonhunter, prime example of that with it’s version Shield of Courage and Wings of Resolve.

What do you mean: “really? really?” It’s been Scrapper for 2yrs and you can’t hit moving enemies with a Hammer, so yeah, new role as DPS will fix an infuriating problem in PvP. Can’t have a melee without targeted leaps or teleports and expect to do anything meaningful except kite and stall.

In PvP rabid condi engi with elixir X is an A tier build…

Double incendiary ammo was the real nerf but gadgeteer is decent as a replacement

Personally I’m happy that Holosmith addresses the problem of lack of gap closers for close range builds and lack of elite spec dps roles. In my view that addresses the engineers current needs equally or better than the daredevil addressed the thief’s lack of down cleave and survivability.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Chaith.8256:

Stacking group utility buffs isn’t the only way to provide value. If you are talking about some kind of min-maxed, highly discriminatory, fixed number GvG squad, I think giving up on equal representation of professions is a good starting point.

Group buffs are, actually, the only way to provide value in a WvW zerg. It’s the only real differentiating factor between the professions and their ranking in the hierarchy. Guardians are brought because of their AoE stability. Revenants are brought because of their increased boon duration and resistance. Elementalists are brought for might and water fields. Mesmers are brought for veils and alacrity. And so on.

And because boon/buff sharing is such an integral component to WvW success, and because most boons/buffs only have a 5-player limit, raid groups are generally structured with these professions in mind. This is why pretty much every raid group worth their salt has at least 2 guardians in every raid group, generally supported by a rev, necro, and mesmer/elementalist.

What results is a situation in which the professions that don’t provide much group utility, like thieves and engineers, end up in the “gutter” of the raid group, who don’t get very much if any of the boon support the main groups are getting—really only the proverbial scraps from the table. This only exacerbates the situation further, as it’s not a very fun experience being tossed around in WvW zerg fights because there’s no guardians in your group, nor is it when you’re going down to conditions because you have no necros, elementalists, or revs in your group either.

Chaith.8256:

Holosmith will add on to PvE builds, yes, highly min-maxed raids will take a Holosmith because of the core Engineer’s Pinpoint Precision raid wide buff, but they will also take a Holosmith because the Holosmith traitline improves the core Engineer’s DPS! Here you give no credit, as if Holosmith would be not even be used in PvE.

I think I misrepresented myself or you misunderstood me; let me explain.

Holosmith will certainly be used in PvE. It will be fun to play. It will provide (hopefully) a new play style that finally gets us away from 4-kit builds in fractals and raids. None of these statements are in dispute.

What is in dispute is the fact that Holosmith as a tree does not add any layers to the profession with regard to its role—a profession that ostensibly is supposed to be a jack-of-all-trades. I know you don’t play PvE much and granted I don’t much these days either; but a big reason behind my exodus is the literal gutting of our utility over the past 3 years, shifting us away from being a jack-of-all-trades to a bland, run of the mill DPS profession.

I am not refusing to acknowledge that personal damage is a tangibly useful addition. I think you’re just refusing to acknowledge that personal damage is already something engineer is quite good at. The purpose of elite specializations is to introduce new roles for each profession, or at least build on preexisting setups. Is giving us a kit-less DPS elite specialization really nice? Absolutely.

Is it what this class truly needs right now? Absolutely not.

So many elite specs added a dps spec to already DPS focused professions, how is the rule definition that elite specs add a new role?

Specs like Daredevil don’t do any change to a thief’s role in any mode nor get them out of the gutter in WvW boonshare squads – still objectively a great spec, viable, great flavor and fun. ArenaNet doesn’t conform to a rigid agenda of role diversity and certainly not trying to pump a new role out with each spec. Sorry it’s not suited to your ideals

Pablo.3259:

There is 9 classes ingame and 10 players slots in a raid. Arena net should make everysingle class a slot inside that game content.

@Dirame.8521
Your ideas are great, with the same skills they could also ad more effect.

Such as important damage boost for the team, alacrit or reliable quickness team support.

Also increase the cooldown of the skills they made would be good. They have too big cooldown and low duration too be decent.
Hard Arena light skill buffs are very very bad for example. It should at least grant stability, more buffs and the duration of the arena is far too short to be a good skill.

“Photon Forge replaces the Holosmith’s fifth toolbelt skill” NO . no no no please no. let player be able to use whatever elite skill they want and still be able to use the holosmith.

@Chaith.8256
In raid or WvW you need to think " Is this class build bringing more than and other one "
Every class is decent and can be played. But when it comes to have a slot in the squad you need to compare yourself with other build.

And just from reading/watching vids of the holosmiths skills, this new elite spec don’t have anything that will be worth taking a holosmith in your wvw or pve raid instead of an other class.
We will again be the last wheel of the wagon.
They made an holosmith with a few mechanic and design but there is such tremedous lack of work on the skills buffgiven/duration and synergie with other engi skills that I’m wondering : Is engi the gimic class of gw2 ?

@I don’t remeber who

My main character in pve and wvw is engi healer build water field blaster and condi removal support. and I really enjoy playing my character.

I proved that I can heal as much even sometimes better than a druid in raid but I don’t find raid spot because at the end I’m told that I can’t bring as much damage support like a druid can ( even if we both healers.

I have very good damage mitigation and can be a good tank but I do not find a slot because chronomancer more appreciate than me because of the Alacrit buff.

In WvW with my char I try to do the best I can with removing my team condition and blasting my water fields but it’s without any doubte that leaders will prefer a good reliable meta build instead of me.
( Big thank you for all the poeple that play with me in wvw it’s thank you for taking me with you guys. )

When more than half of my specializations traits and skills have a support intend it seems to me normal to play engi support.

And belive me I will main an Invention/Alchemy/Holosmith build with full menestrel gear meta or not, shiet synergy or not.

Buff every Holosmith skill better than other professions, i want my F5 skill AND my Photon Forge at the same time and I want all of this now, Anet

Phineas Poe.3018:

I’d just like to remind you that Scrapper didn’t move the needle for engineer in PvE or WvW. We don’t even spec into it in PvE at all. So the idea that it’s some kind of faux outrage or misplaced self-entitlement that I ask that Holosmith actually does something measurable in those areas of the games—most specifically WvW—is kind of outrageous.

Engineer is brought into raids solely for Pinpoint Precision. This elite specialization will not in any tangible way build on top of that job security, especially if the condi meta falls off in Path of Fire and the need for it greatly diminishes. Heck, even now, while core engineer does top-tier DPS already in raids, its minimal raid buff contributions make it easily replaced in the current meta. I don’t see how it’ll be any different for Holosmith.

You know what else is a fun, agile ganker? Thief. Guess how valued they are in WvW raid groups?

I’ll give you a hint: it’s not very much.

I’d say my argument is fairly dispassionate, well-reasoned, and valid. I am not “QQing” and I am not saying the specialization won’t be fun. I’d appreciate it if you considered other perspectives on the discussion and at least acknowledged that there is some merit to our concerns.

I know we’ve historically butted heads on certain things, but we share a common goal here, and we’re on the same team.

I’m also not convinced yet that a very tanky Holosmith traited 1-2-2 with Sword/Shield, Inventions & Alchemy would be not worth having in group WvW content as a frontline DPS, in addition to being a very good roamer. Here you give no credit to this very real potential. Stacking group utility buffs isn’t the only way to provide value. If you are talking about some kind of min-maxed, highly discriminatory, fixed number GvG squad, I think giving up on equal representation of professions is a good starting point..

Holosmith will add on to PvE builds, yes, highly min-maxed raids will take a Holosmith because of the core Engineer’s Pinpoint Precision raid wide buff, but they will also take a Holosmith because the Holosmith traitline improves the core Engineer’s DPS! Here you give no credit, as if Holosmith would be not even be used in PvE.

Basically, you refuse to acknowledge that increased personal damage IS a tangibly useful addition. To claim that Holosmith is not ‘moving the needle’ in WvW, PvE, this will be disproved by players slotting Holosmith in these game modes over other specs.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Chaith.8256:

Pablo.3259:

Holosmith wont be meta anywhere.

We have healing, some kits some gadgets, turrets etc just make this viable instead of
.
..
…whatever I’m tired.
.

Hey? you guys checked that theif new spec ? Looks awesome no ?

Just amazed by how people so confidently know what will be useful and where,

you have no actual idea, best to wait and see

Chaith, you haven’t been playing Guild Wars 2 for a while, but I’m sure you remember very well the fact that engineer has pretty much never had a role in World vs. World outside of gimmick mechanics like magnet pulling commanders or having momentary usefulness with the Bulwark Gyro reflect bubble (which was very quickly rendered obsolete by shield-wielding guardians). As such, to get such a selfish, distilled elite specialization that serves no utilitarian purpose … you have to admit that’s a bit of a let down, no? If I’m a WvW-only engi-main (if any such people even exist in 2017 still), I’m supposedly spending $30 to unlock another roaming build that in no way moves the needle for the profession in any reasonable way.

Further to that point … Holosmith will likely have a plenty healthy presence in PvE, because PvE is only obsessed with damage output—which is really all Holosmith does. If Holosmith makes up a contributing factor in reaching the highest possible raid damage output, then that’s all that matters there. And because core engi already has a role as a DPSer, that’s very likely to be the case. But beyond that, again, it really doesn’t move the needle; if I’m a PvE-only engi-main, I’m ostensibly spending $30 to really only change up my damage rotation. Holosmith contributes nothing to the profession beyond that, and does nothing to reimagine or revitalize the profession in fractals, raids, or dungeon content beyond a single-minded DPS role.

I mean, sometimes you just gotta call a spade a spade. They took a jack-of-all-trades and neutered it.

I just can’t find the same disappointment when you don’t get a new role in an Elite Spec in every given mode. “Ostensibly spending $30 to really only change up my damage rotation” is to me a horrifically pessimistic outlook on not getting a new role in PvE for example. Holosmith is regaining a new role in PvP which by some shared logic you should be very excited about then. WvW Engineer has always been awkward, Holosmith should be a fun, agile ganker though.

I’m still not convinced by the Holosmith QQ’r arguments that the elite spec isn’t going to be fun or viable, or game changing enough. I think it’s going to not change any roles other than PvP but will be hella fun and viable in various niches across the game.

Not sure if this fell under the radar or ArenaNet just kicking an underutilized mechanic

Pablo.3259:

Chaith.8256:

Pablo.3259:

Holosmith wont be meta anywhere.

We have healing, some kits some gadgets, turrets etc just make this viable instead of
.
..
…whatever I’m tired.
.

Hey? you guys checked that theif new spec ? Looks awesome no ?

Just amazed by how people so confidently know what will be useful and where,

you have no actual idea, best to wait and see

I’m just amazed how so confidently you think that we don’t know what willbe useful and where.
It’s not because you have 0 idea about anything that the rest of the player base is as clueless as you.

Wait and see if you want but here but in this forum topic we talk about holosmith traits. If the only constructive comment you can bring is “wait and see” I propose you indeed to wait and see aswell.

There are functionality questions, nuances we don’t know about interactions between photon forge, kits, and heat that can change the game. Also the PvP meta seems very anti Condi in POF and that may leave holosmith a very strong niche as the hot knife through butter overwhelming power cleave. But please, rage on

Pablo.3259:

Holosmith wont be meta anywhere.

We have healing, some kits some gadgets, turrets etc just make this viable instead of
.
..
…whatever I’m tired.
.

Hey? you guys checked that theif new spec ? Looks awesome no ?

Just amazed by how people so confidently know what will be useful and where,

you have no actual idea, best to wait and see

Ryan.9387:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Impaling_Lotus
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Vault
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bounding_Dodger

There is no counter play to an evade.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shocking_Aura
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Slick_Shoes
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Static_Shield
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sanctuary
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Rune_of_Surging

There are counters, any warding effect and abilities that stun through evades

For years people have been wanting the 10% to be with a non-full bar instead of a full one. This is because you have to NEVER dodge to maintain the damage buff. The current one is better for any content where dodging is useful

I don’t think it’s that crazy. It’s just statistics, lots of builds are MADE by the GM minor. For example, I think Tempest GM minor is better-

Tempest GM minor: Protection effectiveness increase +20%, gain 3s protection on Overload.

How much % stronger are you with 120-240 extra stats? Most GM Minors are in the realm of: +15% Boon duration for Herald, stacking +20% healing for Druid, Chill duration +20% and -10% dmg from chilled enemies for Reaper. 25% movement speed & -25% duration of snares for Chrono.

Of all the things that are crazy about PoF that will be nerfed 120-240 stats isn’t out to lunch

Things that should really boggle your mind,

Holosmith base damage numbers,
Mirage Cloak uptime
Weaver Grandmaster trait: *lose two conditions a second while under effect of Superspeed which you’ll have 45% uptime from traits alone, and 15% additional uptime of Superspeed from Air Sword #2, and on demand Superspeed from Weaver Stunbreak, and Fresh Air builds will get 3s Superspeed (lose 6 conditions) on attuning to Air. Now that’s an overtuned trait lol

Too early to tell what’s broken, the most broken sounding elite spec could just be undertuned and totally useless, the most lame sounding elite spec (Renegade) could just have super low aftercasts, a few overtuned abilities, and totally obliterate.

Jekkt.6045:

Chaith.8256:

If Ele and Engi were balanced around having Celestial it’d be great, all for it, but they’re overtuned in PvP with Celestial stats

they should have balanced the classes, not removed the amulet(s) in the first place.

Should’ve, could’ve, didn’t

And you’re talking about two different teams, PvP team does amulets, and balance team does IDK what

Ardid.7203:

Agree. But it also isn’t that good as a “specialist”, because absurd rotations. And other “specialists” do the same work while being more party friendly.

I think while it could be perceived as getting the short end of the stick, Engineers playing the piano on their keyboards vs 1111111 is an acceptable class difference, let’s be honest, it’s much more fun than 1111111

If Ele and Engi were balanced around having Celestial it’d be great, all for it, but they’re overtuned in PvP with Celestial stats

I call core engineer a condition & power damage specialist whether it’s PvP or PvE- hard to understand why it’s referred to as a Jack of all trades with no se support build

I think lots are overly pessimistic. The same always expecting some kind of surprise overhaul to the profession, yet disappointed when it doesn’t happen.

It’s been 5 years, I can’t begin to force myself to continue caring that half of the utilities are trash.

As for the other specializations, they’re not as messed up in PvP as most will lead you to believe.

All I can elaborate further on that is that in PvP, don’t underestimate Explosives, Firearms, and Tools just because Scrapper had no synergy with them, it doesn’t mean Holosmith won’t as well.

Explosives and Firearms with Holosmith (not together) will be a thing. The existence of Holosmith will elevate those specs

In WvW, grenades are too much of a retaliation liability, always have, but a Crystal Configuration: Storm power Holosmith will have plenty of AoE with a mid range, and the elite skill will be a killer too.

Dirame.8521:

Chaith.8256:

Dirame.8521:

And for you to tell me that the status quo of the engie does not back up what I’m saying, is to forget your own thread that you created about improvements that need to be made for the Engie trait lines. Especially the explosives and Firearms. We all know that the engie is very stale right now and this sort of trait design isn’t helping matters.

No, it means that you saying the Holosmith will have one build and a boring theorycraft is not backed up.. you keep drawing similarities to Scrapper’s mono-build problem when there are multiple enticing Holosmith builds, roles, and playstyles. Yes obviously I haven’t forgotten about the Scrapper mono-build.

The Holosmith is lit, while you’re correct in that all Holosmiths will have no choice but to use the heat mechanic, I’ll just repeat myself and say: so what? You just keep repeating that it’s a problem so my responses are kinda pidgeonholed into the same.

I’m extremely pleased with the spec so far, it’s going to be a good theorycraft and finally a viable DPS role for the first time in 2 years. Boo hoo for your problems

I guess my problem is that after a month, we might be bored just playing with this one mechanic. But as always, we are each entitled to our opinion.

Elite specs are all chained into depending on one specific weapon, skill kit or trait mechanic. Maybe they get bored of their new toy, or maybe they swap a bunch of traits, weapons, amulets and roles and get over the fact they’re chained to a specific class mechanic