Guild Wars 2

loseridoit.2756:

The problems is that elemental is notoriously difficult to catch and has the ability to reset battle. Thevies are still nake which the player can aoe and other goodies. Mesmer are slow. Warrior just are plainly affected by all CC. This update just limits the distance that elemental can disengage. Each fight will be a high risk and reward the way Anet wants it

Different professions use different things to make themselves hard to catch. Mesmers with blinks and jukes. Thieves with their high mobility and stealth. Shadow Refuge is the only skill that runs the risk of being AoEd. Outside of that, stealth provides good defensive cover. Think Mesmer’s stealth on utility, elite, and dodge on stealth. You aren’t staying in one place after you are in stealth. This occurs in SR because of the mechanic.

Warriors are affected by CC and post patch they received a small change for that. RTL was nerf to 1200 from 1550 range. Bug fixed or not it is still a nerf from what people used before. This is similar to Thieves and stealth during the culling patch. Removed culling and increase reveal thus nerfing stealth. This patch reveal was reverted to what it was before. RTL is an over nerf this patch similar to the culling Thief stealth nerfs before. RTL 20s is a bait and switch to make it seem like RTL isn’t nerfed as hard when the skill itself is extremely buggy and the 20s proc rarely occurs in real situations. Truth is RTL is now 40s and inferior to other low CD mobility spells. Either way if you want to escape it is easy on multiple professions (including Ele) pre and post patch.

loseridoit.2756:

RTL was design to close gaps. The nerf was anet reflection of it. Notice the 20 sec cd when RTL hits something

First off no gap closing spells in the game has a two part mechanic. Might as well make every thief mobility spell high and only low when it hits a person. Same goes for Warriors. Or just make all these mobility spells like Sword 3 on Guardian. The truth is that RTL was nerf as a gap closer this patch. 20s CD is just a smoke screen and a bait and switch to the fact that RTL is buggy and it doesn’t proc the 20s most of the time. Next, RTL + Updraft was predictable and was in every counter video since Dec. That was only good back in like early Nov. Nowadays, people easily set up or counter when they see that specific combo. What people do with RTL now is they untarget move to a target and then start combos. Or they use RTL as a “burst mobility” spell along with a few other spells to close a large gap to engage. To this end, other professions like Mesmers can do the same thing. On top of that, to proc RTL 20s outside of the bugged situations you would have to be 1000 range or less due to the speed of the skill itself. Like Earth 3 or any projectiles you can’t use it at max range and hope it works because the enemy can move away or be out of range while the projectile is moving towards them. Unless RTL is like instant light speed (kinda like blink abilities) you can never use it at 1200 range to proc 20s when the other person wants to fight at a far range.

Escape will be the same as ever, if you want to escape as an Ele you can pre or post patch. You can do the same on Thieves, Mesmers, and a number of other professions.

What this RTL nerf does is that it nerfs alternative builds and it nerfs the creative use of RTL outside of RTL+Updraft on default every time.

loseridoit.2756:

balancing rtl base on skill cap. A good ele will never die. Its a simple truth.

I notice you are going on other forums realizing the RTL is one of the best movement skills in the game. No other skill remotely compares to RTL.

A good anything will not die as much that is the truth. Someone good on Mesmer will die less than a player less skilled. This applies to every profession. Earth 3 on Dagger MH was bugged for a long time until a patch months ago. It kept Eles stuck at where they are even after skill usage or doesn’t take them where they were suppose to go. On paper it is strong, in reality it sucked. Just like RTL, on paper it looks really strong but in reality with the bugs and everything RTL is meh as a gap closer post patch.

RTL was not one of the best movement skills. Blinks were number one cause even if you are immobilize you can move away from danger. RTL can’t do that. Any there are a lot of “blink” like abilities in this game. RTL was slightly better than Warrior Rush because chill or cripple do not slow RTL down like it does with Warrior Rush. However even with that in mind does it deserve double the CD of Warrior Rush when both skills are used for the exact same purpose? No it doesn’t. 25s or 30s on RTL would be better.

loseridoit.2756:

I had to reinterate what I said again. the mobility was to high that it was comparable to a thief. They had to nerf to bring it inline with other classes.

And again Eles do not have mobility comparable to a thief. Not pre patch, not post patch. On top of that other professions have good mobility skills like Mesmer in combat. But your answer is that simply Mesmer is OP and have high burst. Or that sword 3 is bugged. However, the truth is that RTL is more bugged. Eles have no juke mechanics like stealth or portals in combat. You will always see where an Ele moves to. Mesmer can stealth for a short time to move to places. Mesmers can place a portal and they can choose to use it or not. Someone chasing a Mesmer and they see a portal. That person can choose to stay there and not pursue the Mesmer or they can chase and potentially get juked when the Mesmer portals.

Out of combat mobility just means you can get to places faster like a Keep to defend. Nobody goes: “Hey there is like a slow Guardian at the NW supply camp you can get there really fast Ele to take him down” while you are at the SW tower in your home BL.

loseridoit.2756:

Skill caps determines the class is OP

No it doesn’t. That would mean every class in the game is OP. If I take a lot of time to learn say Ranger and I play it extremely extremely well where I beat a lot of my enemies in WvW that doesn’t mean Rangers are OP. It just means that I am more skilled and I can use my profession to an extent where I can create either opportunities for myself to take down an enemy or I can use core mechanics to solve numerous problems I may encounter while playing my profession against other professions.

OP is like when a profession can be extremely tanky with blocks while doing high burst damage or sustained damage like warriors or thieves while being extremely easy to do this. As it stands, in Gw2 some professions like Mesmer, Eles, Thieves, and Guardians are strong professions. While others like Rangers are weak due in part because of what is needed to succeed in each game mode. Rangers can’t bunker in s/tPvP which is a large part of that game mode. Rangers don’t have high damage or lots of control or support like other professions for group fights in WvW (Think Hammer warriors, Staff ele with static field, Necros with marks, fields, and death shroud to tag everything while you are running through with AoE mitigation). Rangers don’t fit will in PvE/Dungeon due to the fact that high burst damage wins over long term constant damage. Rangers don’t bring a lot of support or utility as well. So the question becomes should they nerf Warriors because they are just darn good in dungeons or should they change the game mode (like make dungeons better) so that other professions can do well or shine. Same for s/tPvP should they just nerf professions over and over or is the problem really s/tPvP maps where bunker is a strat that is needed/used 100% of the time. If s/tPvP requires less bunker or the map is like WvW will bunker be a problem? Is there a different between a profession fighting a team of 5 versus fighting a potentially larger group in WvW that you would commonly see in high tier servers (10+)?

loseridoit.2756:

Currently, food isnt balance. No matter how much we theory craft. Anet just wanted to nerf the mobility.

I dont think anybody are asking a nerf bat to their fighting abilities. They just dont want them to reset battle as easily.

I showed you in combat mobility of other professions and you stated that they are just OP due to burst. But I stated that these people use their professions very well to gain an advantage in terms of in combat mobility. Burst and defense can come from food which makes certain things seem OP when they are not is what I’m saying.

All professions can reset battles. If someone chase a Mesmer as they were far away and burn a bunch of CDs just to continue chasing and the Mesmer then engages them in battle again that it the fault of the player continuing to chase and not being smart. If I chase a thief after he/she chooses to escape and then the thief recovers Initiative and burst me to death. I should be like OMG Thief is OP they can disengage and easily engage me again. The person at fault is me because I made a bad play by continuing to chase and continuing to burn skills to continue chasing.

The truth is resetting fights is different in s/tPvP than it is in WvW. In s/tPvP you can reset fights and go somewhere else to accomplish a task like ninja a point, help defend, help capture, bunker a point, or easily come back due to the distance between points. In WvW, the same reset does nothing for your team. It doesn’t help you get a supply camp, tower, keep, or castle. On top of that the enemy could just be like I’m going to walk away and accomplish something. A fight doesn’t start again, Eles that already used RTL can’t like engage again right away since some of their skills are on CD. You do not have free reign across a WvW cause you might run into large groups. It just doesn’t have that effect.

Thieves have better battle reset since they have stealth and a lot of mobility. People that die and say that thieves can’t reset are wrong. They use a “one trick pony” build, they stealth at very low hp (1k), or they burn everything and don’t consider the worse situation and be prepared for it.

loseridoit.2756:

might stacking changes the equation a little bit which mean any build will have decent damage. I agree that there are trade off but all classes have the same trade offs.

Zerg in WvW always have some might. Might stacking on s/d is higher than d/d. d/d is just fire field with earth 4 + EA earth dodge roll. People that run sigil of battle sacrifice sigil of energy. Plus anyone can run that sigil. I might stack they might stack that doesn’t make it unique or OP.

loseridoit.2756:

Dude, figuring out when the elemental is using a certain skill and the opponent counters it. I do not see a problem. Besides, Element have access to invulnerability because these moment happen. For a class that can always overcome being overplayed is overpowered.

Guardians have blocks, aegis, and invuln to counter large numbers or being outplayed. What is your point? Mesmers have stealth, blink, jukes, and blur. Thieves have stealth and evades. All of these can be used to get out of situations. Smoke field leap anyone? RTL isn’t free try running into an organized group that chains CC. In that case you can die. There are a lot of things players on other professions can do to get out of tough situations.

The thing is nobody can pinpoint how an Ele is OP in WvW. The reason is that Eles aren’t OP in WvW. Fact is that most people that say “Eles are OP” are just rehashing a statement made by devs on SotG which again only apply to s/tPvP and WvW paints a completely different picture. This is similar to thief stealth and reveal before. And I’m sure if someone goes on SotG and states how this is bad for WvW and how RTL is buggy I’m pretty sure the devs wouldn’t think this is as great. On top of the fact that I’m sure (unless they read this thread) they aren’t aware of how bugged RTL is.

Julie Yann.5379:

I don’t get all the kitten and moaning about this patch. I got a lvl75 Ele and none of these changes to RTL and Mist Form have made a drastic change to my game play and RTL and Mist Form are still part of my build and still get used. The Ele was OP in PvP and WvW and was OK in PvE before the patch. Now the Ele is still kind of OP in PvP and WvW and is still OK in PvE. Next month classes will get tweaked again, and again the following month and so on, so forth. This is a MMO, class balancing will be changing for years to come and new builds will emerge. Eventually Anet might get it right for all classes. ATM, Ele is still a very viable class.

Pre patch lots of options. Post patch fewer options. Those things are still a part of Eles because the alternatives are just horrible. Focus meh compared to Dagger OH. Mist form is good compared to all the other useless utilties like conjures and glyphs.

Eles were never OP in WvW. If Eles were OP then Thieves were OP and Mesmers were OP. The reality is that all 3 of these professions were strong. The only OP Ele build was in s/tPvP and it involves s/d weapon set. However, it is important to know that the game mode made that particular build really powerful. In a game mode where bunker isn’t as viable that same build doesn’t do as well. WvW s/d versus s/tPvP s/d Ele.

Nobody minds class balance. It is how it is done. This is an overnerf because RTL never really procs 20s due to it being buggy. In one patch RTL CD increased by 100%. RTL got a bug fix. All of these changes on a buggy skill when they could have done a smaller change to see the effect like fix RTL range bug and increase CD of RTL to 25 or 30s. On top of that no changes to make other things viable or better on an Ele.

Pukknub.7368:

I don’t understand why people are so upset with the changes to elementalists.
Double cd on RTL, okey. But it wasn’t you only gap closener, and it was from weapon and not utility. And the cd is decreased by 50% if you hit an enemy, I.E if you use it as gap closener.

Mist form was a very strong spell and still is. Engineer got the same change, maybe warriors also should get it.
Passive cleanse got 5sec cd, I don’t know if that’s a big deal. (Edit: I noticed this was for spvp only, so I guess it didn’t change in wvw.)

But that’s basically it, or did I miss something?
Please enlighten me, because I really don’t understand.

Simply the reason is that RTL is extremely buggy and the amount of times you proc 20s is slim. So for the most part RTL for most situations is on a 40s CD.

Another thing is that this was an overnerf because they “bug” fix RTL’s range from 1550 to 1200. At the same time they increase the CD by 100%. And the kicker is that it is extremely bugged where the secondary effect to proc 20s occurs rarely. On paper it is like if you hit something it procs. But the reality is that this is not the case. An example would be RTL to something but it bugs out where it gets really really close to the target but it doesn’t hit it and goes on a 40s CD. Or the skill traces the target at close range but doesn’t “hit” and goes on 40s CD. I have all of these occur to me on day 1 of post RTL nerf patch.

30 water trait nerf is just silly in my opinion. Nobody really burnt all their cantrips to just cure 1 condition each. Cleansing flame is the only one that removes the most condition. Post patch: Cleansing + water attune equals 5 removed conditions versus 6 pre patch due to CD of regen. Now I’m sure most people wouldn’t use say Lightning flash for the sole purpose of removing a condition. Same goes with mist form or armor of earth. Mist form + Ether Renewal was really really strong though.

loseridoit.2756:

I mention the mesmer lack of swiftness boon and the fact that staff #2 have to be properly micro. #2 staff only gives slightly more distance than a guy with swiftness boon which means a guy with swiftness will always beat a mesmer in a race.

Mesmers don’t lack swiftness boon. They can use focus OH which is common to use in WvW. That same skill also offers additional effects that allow Mesmers to pull enemies closer or the escape by pulling them further away.

If anyone that plays any profession needs to escape they will have a plan and route in mind. This goes from Eles to Thieves to Mesmers to Warriors. It is pointless to try to dash away only to realize you have nothing to follow up because they are on CD. If a Mesmer sees a situation that is bad 1vX wise then of course they would plan something and drop a portal. Or they can do that to juke enemies to burst someone. On paper is one story but the reality is that this gives Mesmer some really good option offensively and defensively.

Stealth uses an Elite. So what, just like Eles getting Fire GS on Elite for mobility. Or they use armor of earth for their only source of stability. It is like saying Eles have no stability because Armor of Earth uses another utility slot. You build your professions to cover certain weaknesses or to handle certain situations better. In roaming or 1vX stealth on elite is much better when you are by yourself against 2-4 other people.

loseridoit.2756:

Now, RTL have a larger CD since it was nerfed. I was talking about it in its pre nerf state

RTL was always buggy it just felt better since the CD wasn’t like 40s. Point is Mesmers have mobility in combat to close gaps like Eles. Both skills are buggy and that doesn’t take away from the fact that in perfect world Ele > Mesmer in combat mobility or vice versa. The fact that doing RTL + updraft is soo predictable and most Ele counter videos discuss predicting that and evading the combo.

@loseridoit

The way I see it is that Osicat uses burst but also the insane juking mechanic of a mesmer along with great in combat mobility to confuse opponents and go for a kill when the opportunity comes. This is no different from Excala using a bunker build with knights and crit dmg. He uses walls, trees, and the environment along with unique Ele mechanics to create opportunities to take down opponents. All skilled players will maximize their professions to create opportunities that they can exploit to take down their opponent. Nobody who is skilled rely solely on the fact that they have high burst or high tankiness. That helps but it isn’t like 100% win or anything.

As for food there are a lot more that are really really strong outside of crit dmg. Mango Pie regen is better than 100 healing power food. -Cond Duration is really strong under certain builds (-33% immob, chill, cripple stack for example). Zerg food like composte.

There are a lot of things that you have to set up that doesn’t mean it is a con. That is like saying Earth 5 isn’t that great because you have to set it up and use a cantrip to actually hit something. The mentality is that if you want to use a portal juke you would first know where your enemies are, set the start portal, then after some time you set the end portal. The choice is yours if you end up using it or not to juke. Compare that to Earth 5 + lightning flash set up. I channel Earth 5 but that doesn’t mean I’ll flash to the person I was fighting. I can flash to someone else that I just saw by panning my camera. Skilled players play proactively and keep their enemies guessing. Players that don’t play their profession at their fullest usually default or automate their combos where they use the same thing/moves/combos 90% of the time.

loseridoit.2756:

Mobility allows such the elemental able to use those tactics easier. Kiting is a strong tactic in this game.

But a lot of classes have mobility and as I said before Eles mobility isn’t first class and other professions have great in combat mobility. What made Eles unique is the fact that they maximize the use of the environment like trees and walls. This gives them the needed edge for their lack of burst damage and tankiness.

loseridoit.2756:

No, I was replying to the fact that his opponent outplay his elemental. Reacting to a RTL cast by casting immobilize should reward the attacker. The attack counter the build and his cast. Therefore, the elemental should die. If the game does not reward should a brilliant counter, then the game is broken

You spot Ele attune to Air. You hit an immobilize they are forced to use a condition removal or swap to water attunement. On the one hand you are forcing the other player to do something or take damage. That should be rewarding in itself. On the other hand, this situation isn’t exclusive to Eles. Any profession can use a condition removal to remove immobilize to dodge and run away. So either the game is fine or every profession in the game with condition removal is broken.

What I said is that running away from a bad situation on other professions outside of an Ele like Thief, Mesmer, or Guard isn’t that hard.

Same trait and utilities 0/10/0/30/30 with Ether Renewal, Lightning Flash, Cleansing Flame, Mist Form along with Fire GS. Just Zerg slightly more for easy wxp and loot bags.

Arcane Precision and Burning Precision activate individually so it is possible to have it both proc granting you burning and one random condition. Just tested this on sPvP dummies.

Kirbyprime.2645:

After a few tests in dungeons and WvW in duels, the RtL nerf is now far more unpredictable. Not because of the “normal” new behavior, but because of how RtL normally bugs out. One of the more easier ways to test this is to use RtL on the berserker boss in the new dungeon, you will self stun yourself AND you’ll get 40s.

If nothing else, and I seriously mean, if NOTHING else, at the very least, make it so if you have a target on use then you get the 20s CD.

Yeah RTL has been buggy for a while. It is safe to assume that for most players RTL is 40s and that there are only a few times where you will get the 20s CD proc.

Attunement is a gift and a curse to Eles. If you do not have lightning flash then your ability to hit a Earth dagger 5 changes. Therefore, if the skill isn’t useful to you because you don’t want to run lightning flash well then you are stuck with not using the skill at all. Other professions can pick their 2H weapon or MH+OH weapon to fit their build and style of play. The upside is Eles have a wide selection of skills to adapt in a wide ranging set of situations. 2H/MH+OH weapon swap can do this as well but it requires a specific build that people may or may not use. Another thing is that each individual skill on an Ele may not be as strong as each individual skill on a 2H/MH+OH weapon set just to balance Ele’s 4 attunements with 10 weapon skill slot of other professions. Lastly, Eles have 2 sigil versus 3 on a 2H/MH+OH common set up or 4 on a MH+OH x2 set. There are a lot of different things to consider and it is not simply that Ele attunement > 2H/MH+OH combo. It isn’t that black and white.

loseridoit.2756:

Why bring up Osicat, his burst is due to an overpowered combination of food buffs and armor stats.

His winds of chaos hits for 700-1k.

I can bring up Dapheniox and his ability to kite 10+ people.

Not sure if this is trolling or not. Osicat uses food buffs, Excala uses food buffs, everyone in WvW uses food buffs. Food is OP not the profession. Osicat shows not only burst but also mobility to disengage. Just watch the videos.

Excala can kite people through the use of certain items or builds which he explains. Nobody is saying Eles can’t do that, I have specifically stated that Eles used the environment a lot defensively and offensively. If you look at Excala’s videos he really showcases this.

loseridoit.2756:

actually, that guy immobile the d/d elemental right before he want to use RTL. I wonder if that guy is crazy good or lucky. D/D elemental deserve to die in those situations. The D/D elemental fought a completely better player. If the d/d elemental does not die then the class is broken and OP

Your idea of OP/broken is misguided. OP is when if an Ele can tank and do insane amount of damage that no other profession can compete. The reality is that Eles are not the #1 tank/bunker in fact Guardians are. Damage from an Ele is not high compared to other professions like Mesmers or Thieves. What an Ele has is superior usage of the environment along with a nice “toolkit” to use to adapt to situations. The reality is that Eles are strong while certain flavors of s/d in s/tPvP are really really strong.

loseridoit.2756:

Why bring up mesmer. Out of all the classes, mesmer have the most problems running away from a fight. Do you play a mesmer at all?

A combination of RTL + perma swiftness will always beat a mesmer in a race.

Staff #2 is only just as as fast as a swiftness boon. Blink have a short cd because Mesmer tends to use all their skill. Most mesmers will find most of their skills on cd because that the way the class is design.

sword #3 skill is extremely buggy

I will only agree about your comment about taking Wvwvw camps if the mesmer portal is set up which the mesmer have to sacrifice dps to use. In most cases, the d/d elementalist will be able to run away easier

I will not comment on Ranger because I never care about learning that class

I play Mesmer quite often. Again look above were you refused to see that Osicat guide about using Mesmer’s burst mobility. I never had a problem running away on multiple professions outside of an Ele. It is about the mindset and knowing what to do in specific situations. That is not to say that it is a walk in the part if you overextend.

The thing is perma swiftness comes on an Ele from stacking a lot before hand through like Excala or using Auras (which requires a trait) + swapping into air + a healing skill people don’t use often + updraft (which you will not have again if you engage into battle soo soon along with requiring reverse camera).

I bring up Mesmer because you feel that Thief = Ele in terms of mobility which is not true. Saying Warrior is another option but their roaming abilities aren’t that good cause they cannot set up damage as well.

What you forgot about staff 2 is that you blink but you can swap weapons to like say a focus OH for swiftness along with a cripple if the enemy moves through it or to pull the enemy back if they past it. That in itself can help you escape along with portals and stealth.

Sure sword 3 is buggy at times but RTL is extremely buggy and has a signficantly higher CD now. RTL to a mob but the game doesn’t connect your RTL well it is 40s CD not 20s. And yes I tried this today. The point is that regardless of how buggy a skill is in a perfect world where these skills are not bugged Mesmers have good options to disengage from a battle if they wanted to.

maddoctor.2738:

makku.2508:

Do you see what’s happening here? 99% of the population are royally upset over something that was released to please the other 1% of the population. Something is very, very wrong with that.

What I don’t get is why people don’t get it (see what I did here) and reply with the typical broken jukebox behaviour “but you have been OP for months QQ, but all the top players on the leaderboards are Eles” and other crap like that, which means they probably never read ANY of the complaining threads at all… or at least they didn’t use their brain enough to understand what are the complains about.

I think people don’t understand that the viablity or strength of a profession comes largely from the game mode rather than specific skills or stats. Leaderboards show Eles in s/tPvP. It doesn’t show what build or weapon set they use d/d or s/d. Without a doubt s/d was OP in s/tPvP and d/d really strong in that game mode due to bunkering a point being a strong strat to use. On top of that the small arenas make Eles strong. However, go to WvW and you see a completely different picture. A similar example would be Warrior where they are really strong in dungeons/PvE due a game mode where having extremely high dps along with damage buffs to allies being really strong strat to use. Take that same Warrior to WvW or s/tPvP and it paints a completely different picture. I think a lot of players can’t grasp this or they do not play enough of every game mode to see a more complete picture of a particular profession.

@loseridoit

I am aware of 1550 I’m talking about post nerf which is 1200 range with a 40s CD which a secondary effect of it being 20s CD when it hit someone. I am just stating the fact that the situations where an Elementalist will get the 20s CD is slim.

d/d wasn’t the best build for an Elementalist it was the most balanced and fun build to play. s/d was actually superior to d/d in s/tpvp if you play it right. Staff Ele with static field is actually superior than d/d in terms of control and group fights in WvW. The reason being is that staff eles have some skills that ignore the 5 person AoE limit. d/d was just fun and it feels great playing it since the skills mesh well together. On top of that, it was strong (similar to Mesmers and Thieves) but it wasn’t OP.

Mesmers can disengage from a battle easily through the use of juke mechanics and burst movement. Don’t believe me, look up Oscicat Shattercat build videos. It showcases how you can use burst mobility to engage and burst someone down. At the same time, it shows portal jukes along with stealth and burst mobility Mesmers can be quite mobile. Now that isn’t to say that Mesmers will hands down beat an Ele running from the top supply camp in WvW to the bottom one.

Blinks are superior to swiftness boon in the heat of battle because it can teleport you x units somewhere in situations where mobility skills like RTL, Warrior Rush, or swiftness will not work. An example of this is when youare immobilized swiftness or RTL cannot help you there but a blink like ability will even though it will not remove the immobilize.

Eles in combat mobility was slightly above average. They has RTL, burning speed, and Lightning Flash (which has a high base CD compared to Mesmer teleport). Compared that with Thieves mobility in combat like Shadowstep + return, stealth, and a lot of leaps/shadowstep abilities in their weapon sets. Mesmers have blink, Staff 2, sword 3 blink, portal, and stealth. Rangers have good in combat mobility with leaps on sword along with their range on their other weapon set. Warriors have good in combat mobility they just have problems setting up their damage.

I’m pretty sure their devs are busy. However, I wish that for balance they would have something that explains what they are thinking when they nerf/buff something. What they want a class to look like or what they should in a general sense do or not do. On top of that, it would be nice to have different balance devs outside of s/tPvP guys to talk about the profession changes on SotG.

Finally, I hope ArenaNet considers 2 week balance or bug patch release so that they can do smaller nerfs/buffs to see/test player reaction and then nerf/buff as needed.

Chopps.5047:

Stated design goal is for thieves to have best mobility, fwiw.

Thieves had the greatest mobility pre patch and they have the greatest mobility post patch regardless of RTL nerf or not.

showatt.9413:

Kaleban.9834:

showatt.9413:

The class is still OP, so more nerf is required to tune it down further.

Just. Stop. The. Bologna.

Let me know at what point in time in the last three months a D/D Ele in full bunker spec was destroying in WvWvW and raking in loot bags. Oh that’s right, NEVER. Any full bunker D/D was not killing anybody, just delaying and harassing targets. A perfectly viable tactic.

I’m sorry but unless you’re Daphoenix I’m not gonna take your statement seriously. It’s nothing personal. If you can link me a post where Dap complains about not being able to kill people in wvw and post a video of him failing I’ll gladly reconsider my position.

Look at Excala’s recent videos. He shows Ele tactics and even in those videos he wasn’t killing anyone really. That is not saying that Eles can’t kill people at times. But the truth of the matter is that Eles pre patch weren’t some god where they bunker and just kill everyone. Excala really shows how you can maximize an Ele’s defenses by using the environment since Eles have access to PbAoE. This is a fact that makes the ele strong and unique at the same time. Also, Excala in his post stated that he used items like hylek potion along with staff/scepter to buff himself before a fight to have an extra edge. On top of that, Excala is using a build that requires a specific type of food to remove mobility based conditions faster like chill and cripple. If Ele are indeed OP would Excala need to go to such lengths on his Ele? The truth is that Eles are strong, they aren’t OP and they aren’t weak or useless in different game modes like other professions (ranger, engi). If you read Excala’s thread this is what you get out of it.

The only thing that was close to OP a while ago was a specific flavor of s/d bunker Ele build in s/tPvP besides that Eles are as strong as Mesmers, Thieves, and Guardians are in WvW.

I believe they can’t split skills and they can only split traits. Or they do not want to split skills because it would confuse players when they go in different game modes.

@Sakagami:
The nerf didn’t change the fact that Eles can still escape whenever they wanted to. 20s, 40s, 60s, 180s it doesn’t really matter because if you save RTL only for escape then when you really need to run away from a fight you can just pop it. RTL had its counter the only thing RTL had that made it strong is that it isn’t affected by chill or cripple unlike say like Warrior Rush (GS 5). Even then blink abilities like teleport or shadowstep are much much stronger than RTL due to the fact that you can’t really counter it. I can move further away under imobilize. The RTL nerf mostly affected out of combat mobility and the ways that Eles use RTL to close gaps without hitting the target directly or start a combo/fight

Not sure if this is serious or trolling really hard but a D/D ele never beats a thief in terms of mobility. Honestly, if a thief can’t keep up with a D/D ele the person playing the thief needs to improve or evaulate their level of play.

RTL isn’t meant only as a gap closer if it was then skills like Warrior Rush (GS 5) or Warrior Sword 3 would be considered a gap closer. Yet the reality is that those skills aren’t nerfed and they provide mobility both in combat and out of combat.

RTL 20 seconds is useless for various reasons. First RTL related bugs which hopefully they some day fix. Second, every profession video on how to counter Ele involves dodging the predictable RTL + updraft combo people used to use months ago. At near max range (1100-1200) it is easy for the other people to dodge out of RTL’s range. As a result, RTL will go on a 40s CD instead of 20s. This includes dodging backwards, blink abilities (Mesmer staff 2), and other similar juking, dodge, or mobility skill which are common on many other professions. On top of that, RTL can be used to get behind someone (non targeted RTL) or used to gap close someone 1200+ range away like RTL + Earth 3 or any similar combo. For most skilled Ele players RTL is 40s and the 20s CD doesn’t matter much because the situations where you will get 20s is limited to white mobs in WvW in your line of motion (RTL straight instead of going left or right of where you were intended on going) or <1000 range RTL once in a while due to reliablity issues.

Eles never beat a thief in terms of roaming ever in WvW. Eles were average in terms of roaming, above average only if you roam around specific areas where you can LoS and use your PbAoE. Mesmers and thieves are much better roamers.

I already use FGS for those purposes already. The only problem I can see it the cast time for FGS under some situations and the CD of it.

@PistolWhip

I disagree with mobility. The thing is Eles are really great at healing (water, EA, two heal abilities on D/D or S/D on top of their healing ability). They are great at condition removals and LoS + PbAoE. These factors are to counter their low base armor and hp values (worst out of every profession in the game) and lack of on demand protection (aegis, blocks, etc) outside of Armor of Earth which has a long CD. In most areas they are average compared to other professions. Out of combat mobility I would say an Elementalist’s mobility is slightly less than a warrior, much less than a thief and could be comparable to a few other professions in closing the gap like Mesmers with staff 2 + blink + sword MH. The strong mobility aspect of an Ele just comes from the fact that RTL isn’t affected by chill or cripple which ArenaNet could fix versus just straight up nerfing RTL distance (bug fix) along with doubling the CD in one patch. I don’t mind balance but it would be better if they see how the new distance affect mobility before a 100% CD increase on RTL. Mobility, LoS + PbAoE, along with heals and condition removals, and cantrips are the way that Eles survive defensively in the light of having the worst base armor and hp stat in the game. Now with some of these things being nerfed and nothing else given to Eles people would have to spec even more in certain ways (more bunker? Excala’s new 20 earth build?) or stop playing in certain ways (1vX, roamer are some examples where the Ele will possibly take a hit in WvW). Focus is still not improved, traits aren’t improved to open other options, conjures aren’t good, and other things. So this nerf doesn’t open up Ele builds or make something else great. A possible outcome is that this makes the current build bad and makes other subpar build better because the best build atm isn’t great post patch.

All in all I find that the jack of trades should be that a profession can be good or even great at certain things to counter a significant weakness they might have. In this case, it is low base hp and armor and this can be lessen with the use of like say some heal (but overheal is bad and a waste), some mobility (since they don’t have stealth, juke mechanics [stealth/mesmer portal]), some condition removals due to low hp pool to counter conditions that don’t take toughness/armor into account, PbAoE/LoS to increase the Ele’s defenses by using the environment to its fullest. At the same time, they are average in other areas like damage, range, mobility (both in combat, under conditions [chill/cripple], and out of combat).

The problem is that if you are melee you need mobility to actually do something and at the same time some defenses (jukes, stealth, mobility, heals, blocks, boons, vigor for more dodges). This is like warriors having high damage but lacking ways to even do a small percentage of their damage. Other than that you have to do dps at range where you will take less damage or you will need less mobility because you can use your range to dps someone. Eles need something because their range options aren’t great (not as bad as guardians) outside of group v group or zerg v zerg.

Honestly, I understand that may be your experience on Ele but it is completely different for me. To play at Excala’s level (popular d/d guide author) or even higher it requires a lot of skill. I find thief and guardian to be much easier in WvW PvP than Ele at accomplishing something. A profession that feels slightly harder than an Ele would be a Mesmer to play at Osicat’s level or higher.

For PvE content zerk along with a few pieces of knights/soliders (Amulet, chest, pants) work extremely well. The reason is that I find PvE content to be easy to the point that you don’t really need the extra defenses like you would in PvP. On top of that, if you do like Orr farming there are usually other people so mobs will die really fast either way and you will not need the extra defense.

You can use the same set for most dungeon paths simply because the mob and boss mechanics are predictable where you can dodge to avoid specific attacks. And if you kill a boss or mob fast you do not have to worry about extra defenses besides your blocks, aegis, and dodges since the boss will not have a lot of opportunities to do damage to you.

PvP is a different story.

There are a lot of women that play GW2 in fact they enjoy the same type of content that men do. I see women in dungeon runs, PvE content, and WvW PvP. In fact, they are as competitive as anyone else in the game.

Vaulken.6983:

Those are evades/blocks built into attacks, some people would prefer to swap their endurance dodge for an on demand block.

There is a definite lack of playstyle for the armoured soldier that stands toe to toe with the enemy and stares it down. It’s very awkward rolling around in full plate as a norn.

Warriors with hammers are a great example of how misleading GW2 can be: the hammer looks like an offensive weapon, when you swing it you make craters on the floor but in reality it’s a utility weapon that doesn’t do that much damage.

The on demand block is called Aegis. On top of that I don’t see anything misleading. And certain classes have an on demand evade besides the usual dodge roll. One example of this is an elementalist running dual daggers. Air 5 does no damage but you can use it to dodge attacks at range or you can use it to knockback enemies and dodge at the same time. The dual nature of such skills provide depth. Same goes with Shelter on guardians providing an on demand block or a block along with a heal at the end.

Hammer compared to Greatsword or Dual Axe. To be honest, a giant sword or someone wielding two axes would definately be more deadly than someone wielding a hammer. Plus, the expectation is that with a hammer you slam and stun people which it does offer that versus a greatsword or dual axe you would not get those options. And in fact GW2 meets these expectations.

Try Guardian. They have a lot of on demand blocks along with being extremely tanky which allows them to fight against multiple enemies at one time (1vX). Also, warriors have access to a shield offhand that provides an on demand block as well.

There are a lot of things beyond this and dodge isn’t just to kite more enemies. It can be used to evade specific attacks or damage along with closing the distance. Mesmer dodge for clone into sword 3 swap immobilize sword 2 shatter for example. In this case you dodge an attack from your enemy and then counter. Or dodge off a hill and swap teleport up (sword 3). Dodge left or right to cover more distance to take cover behind an environmental object (e.g. Tree).

I think you have a limited view of the combat system or you expect the combat system in GW2 to be like other games (e.g. Tera, WoW, etc). What I will say that PvE content isn’t challenging enough which doesn’t mean the combat system sucks. Also, look at PvP and you will see that the combat system is fine. What is lacking is some build diversity because some things are just too strong on certain professions or certains things are useless (e.g. Signets, Elementalist Conjures [except Elite GS]).

Personally in WvW I run 0/0/10/30/30 with mostly cleric gear and some soldiers using a Greatsword with Sword/Focus for mobility and single target damage. I find that it is very tanky and capable at handling multiple enemies at once.

For a most support approach I would run the hammer and either instead of the Greatsword and maybe swap out sword for scepter. AH build (x/x/30/30/x) is good for support through the trait Altruistic Healing.

15 second CD on RTL to now 20 second CD on RTL. And with an attunement CD at 9 seconds (30 arcana), there are times now where your RTL might not be up when you switch back to air attunement while previously it would be up.