Guild Wars 2

Leodon.1564:

Robert said he increased the delay before a clone appeared from iLeap to give players a bit of a “fudge” factor so that players would have a better chance of being in range of their target to use the skill. I didn’t agree with this idea/logic when he mentioned it and after playing with it the other day, still disagree with it.

The problem people had in finding the proper range to use iLeap was mainly due to a lack of experience using the skill. The “problem” would have eventually solved itself on its own (from increased player experience) since there was no bug with the actual skill as far as I know.

Adding a delay to iLeap to help inexperienced players is flawed/bad for several reasons:

1) It assumes the target is stationary and you are moving towards the target as this is really the only situation in which it might help a newer player in using iLeap. If the target is moving away from you at a faster rate than you are moving towards it or if you and your target are both moving towards each other, adding this delay does not help and in fact makes it harder to use the skill successfully/optimally.

2) Adding a delay prevents players from immediately dodging after using the skill which is something a lot of players do. (For example, drop clone on target, dodge away to avoid hits, and use leap to get back on target/break stun.) Before the change, it was a calculated risk as to whether or not you should use a dodge immediately or try and get an iLeap clone out before using your dodge. It was a fine balance and the fluidity of the skill has changed for the worse in my opinion.

3) Adding delays to any range skilled to help people having a hard time finding the correct range is just a bad/flawed idea. If this is the reason for adding a delay to iLeap, why not add delays to every other ranged ability?

TLDR; Adding delay for clone was never something we needed and makes the skill worse.

I agree with this 100%.

Unfortunately I find the new ileap worse than the old ileap – the faster clone summon was better.

salarasul.4190:

Majic.4801:

Curunen.8729:

Propositions

1. Nerf clones to NOT apply conditions. Yes, I’m serious – zero conditions.

In other words, eliminate other builds to make your preferences the only viable choices.

Then use the word “stupid” to describe alternatives because, you know, it would be stupid for anyone not to see things your way.

my thoughts exactly

Likewise, please give reasons if you want me to understand your point of view.

Majic.4801:

Curunen.8729:

Propositions

1. Nerf clones to NOT apply conditions. Yes, I’m serious – zero conditions.

In other words, eliminate other builds to make your preferences the only viable choices.

Then use the word “stupid” to describe alternatives because, you know, it would be stupid for anyone not to see things your way.

Clones don’t do power damage – I don’t see anyone complaining about that in power builds. What is wrong with the idea that they don’t do condition damage?

Instead of refuting my opinion just for the sake of it, please can you give me an example of where relying on clones to deal condition damage requires any skillful or interesting play, especially if using DE. From where I’m standing you just pop them out, sit back and let them apply their conditions – I find that stupid, yes.

I thought this patch was meant to give more reasons to shatter, so taking all damage away from clones should promote more active play using phantasms, shatters, interrupts and personal weapon skills to apply damage.

I’m trying to give reasons to revert MtD because currently it is unplayable without fully traited scepter to make up for the pathetic stacks.

I’d happily lose IP to get 2 stacks of torment back at this rate.

I can’t play this anymore with Sword/Torch + Staff.

It sucks, the damage pressure is pathetic without scepter and staff auto attacks which do the majority of the heavy lifting.

Very unhappy because Sword/Torch + Staff MtD was a lot of fun prior to this patch.

suck it up, buttercup. :p

I’d prefer a bird, but I don’t mind the unicorn.

I’m having a lot more fun now with Domination/Inspiration/x and Staff/Focus interrupt builds using mantras.

I actually prefer Chaos over Duelling because of the amazing staff trait here.

Riranor.6315:

You… you do realize they didnt nerf MtD right? All the threads complaining when the nerf might happen rejoiced… uh…

Er – did you see the follow up and the other huge thread on the first page? They did, I’m in game now, it is one stack.

I’m going to post this here as well:

The nerf to MtD is misguided and incentivising boring, passive play for mesmer condition builds.

We have several main ways to apply conditions:
1. Auto attacks and clone attacks (staff/scepter clones)
2. Phantasm attacks (iduelist)
3. Other weapon skills (confusing images, icounter… yeah… not many options here)
3. Interrupts (mistrust)
4. Shatters (torment/confusion on shatter)

By far the single most passive and boring option is number 1. I find it even more stupid now that it is one of the most strongest options in condition play.

Propositions

1. Nerf clones to NOT apply conditions. Yes, I’m serious – zero conditions.
2. Nerf iCounter to 4 stacks of torment for 6 seconds.
3. Revert MtD to 2 stacks for 6 seconds.
4. Move MtD to Grandmaster and Malicious Sorcery down to Master tier (force a choice between MtD and Ineptitude).
5. Restore the “new” Confusing Combatants in Duelling.
6. Make Sharper Images also apply to the mesmer.
7. If necessary buff staff and scepter auto attack condition stacks to make up for nerf to clones.
8. Buff certain phantasms to be more useful in condition builds (ie iWarlock, iMage (still)…).

Alternative Proposition:

1. Buff Cry of Frustration to deal one stack of torment baseline. Leave everything else alone.

I prefer the first option, but the second might be a quick bandaid fix that could help.

We should be pushing to shatter in order to deal damage, or to use our own weapon skills (including auto attack), phantasms and interrupts – not to sit back and let clones do it for us. It is the most ridiculously passive and boring method of play for condition builds on mesmer and I can’t believe it still exists and traits like MtD are nerfed.

I also find it stupid that iCounter does more single target torment on a ridiculously low cooldown than a 4 illusion shatter. That should not happen. You deal more torment over time by letting scepter clones auto attack and regularly landing iCounter than by mindwracking and CoFing every time they’re off cooldown…

Another problem – pigeonholing of weapons.
A brilliant thing about the patch preview was, together with the vulnerability change, the prospect of using NON-native condition weapons such as Greatsword and Mainhand Sword in condition builds – thanks to Confusing Combatants among other things. Now this is ruined and we are pretty much forced to use Scepter or Staff in a condition build. I find that a bad thing.

As for PU – well nerf the kitten trait then. Don’t take it out on the wrong trait (in this case MtD) because certain builds and traits are broken and overpowered when used in combination with each other.

Edit: In fact, a request to please let this thread die – I really don’t want any of what I’ve put in the OP to happen – the only reason I made this thread was for the purpose of “fair trade/exchange” given I’m very concerned MtD will not be fixed and left in this pathetic state.

Disclaimer:
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In all honesty I don’t want any of this to happen – I just want to see MtD restored.

My reason for this thread is sacrificing something to get MtD back, because I don’t believe Anet will simply restore it without fair trade.

Ok? Please understand my irritation in this thread is directed at the MtD nerf, so any unpleasant language or stubborn ideas is as a result of that.
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The nerf to MtD is misguided and incentivising boring, passive play for mesmer condition builds.

We have several main ways to apply conditions:
1. Auto attacks and clone attacks (staff/scepter clones)
2. Phantasm attacks (iduelist)
3. Other weapon skills (confusing images, icounter… yeah… not many options here)
3. Interrupts (mistrust)
4. Shatters (torment/confusion on shatter)

By far the single most passive and boring option is number 1. I find it even more stupid now that it is one of the most strongest options in condition play.

Propositions

1. Nerf clones to NOT apply conditions. Yes, I’m serious – zero conditions.
2. Nerf iCounter to 4 stacks of torment for 6 seconds.
3. Revert MtD to 2 stacks for 6 seconds.
4. Move MtD to Grandmaster and Malicious Sorcery down to Master tier (force a choice between MtD and Ineptitude).
5. Restore the “new” Confusing Combatants in Duelling.
6. Make Sharper Images also apply to the mesmer.
7. If necessary buff staff and scepter auto attack condition stacks to make up for nerf to clones.
8. Buff certain phantasms to be more useful in condition builds (ie iWarlock, iMage (still)…).

Alternative Proposition:

1. Buff Cry of Frustration to deal one stack of torment baseline. Leave everything else alone.

I prefer the first option, but the second might be a quick bandaid fix that could help.

We should be pushing to shatter in order to deal damage, or to use our own weapon skills (including auto attack), phantasms and interrupts – not to sit back and let clones do it for us. It is the most ridiculously passive and boring method of play for condition builds on mesmer and I can’t believe it still exists and traits like MtD are nerfed.

I also find it stupid that iCounter does more single target torment on a ridiculously low cooldown than a 4 illusion shatter. That should not happen. You deal more torment over time by letting scepter clones auto attack and regularly landing iCounter than by mindwracking and CoFing every time they’re off cooldown…

Another problem – pigeonholing of weapons.
A brilliant thing about the patch preview was, together with the vulnerability change, the prospect of using NON-native condition weapons such as Greatsword and Mainhand Sword in condition builds – thanks to Confusing Combatants among other things. Now this is ruined and we are pretty much forced to use Scepter or Staff in a condition build. I find that a bad thing.

As for PU – well nerf the kitten trait then. Don’t take it out on the wrong trait (in this case MtD) because certain builds and traits are broken and overpowered when used in combination with each other.

tetrodoxin.2134:

Reroll. You’ll be back in a week max.

Oh I’m not rerolling. Mesmer is the only reason I play gw2 so I’m going to have to change builds completely.

Mesmer is less fun since they just gutted condition shatter.

Honestly I was happier with it before the patch and no IP.

QQing.3089:

Lasted 10 hours. Yaaayyyy. Give me confounding combatants than. Pick one or the other. God forbid I can play condi without using a scepter

Yeah, I like to play without scepter and this effectively kills my playstyle.

Inhope they revert this and instead reduce the duration or something, but I haven’t got high hopes.

Going to try condition shatter again this evening but if it sucks now then I won’t be playing it again.

…

GG Anet, bye bye condi shatter.

I don’t mind if they keep the duration or keep the boons per second, but both together kind of makes it a bit insane.

On the note of duration – prestige blast finisher timing is really awkward with 6 seconds. With 3 seconds I can reliably combo into say chaos storm – with 6 I lose track of the time!

Well I spent most of the time earlier this evening trying to get the hang of this casting delay for ileap and it still doesn’t flow nicely.

I’ll just have to continue to play with it another day and hopefully get used to it.

I think a quality of life change would be to NOT put the skill on full cooldown if you interrupt the cast early by dodging too soon and the clone isn’t summoned.

Heh, funnily enough I just decided to go back and read through the thread – in hindsight the whole thing looks rather peaceful and polite! ^^

Anyway, can we make the most of enjoying the rest of this excellent patch. I don’t want this sour note to cause a rift in our forum when we’re all here to enjoy the same class.

I also think this won’t survive long.

+1 second with all the boons I can understand. +100% duration is crazy.

Look, I really don’t enjoy this kind of argument, but I agree with Pyro’s thoughts that prevention of a bad balance decision is much easier than getting them to revert a bad decision, and the best way of preventing such a decision is to create an uproar on the forums.

So you can see – I was determined not to see mtd senselessly nerfed so I did whatever I could to prevent that.

I’m sorry if I reacted violently to your posts but I don’t believe that any of us here have to apologise to the devs for getting worked up over a potential bad balance decision. I believe everyone who posted annoyed comments in this thread did the right thing, and may have contributed to keeping the trait as it is.

lol at “teen angst”…

I can’t be bothered with this nonsense drama – I don’t have to defend myself against your personal judgement on my point of view or my actions in this thread.

I 100% stand by what I posted, and yes for the record I also have played mesmer pretty much since launch so I do know the history of balance decisions.

I’m going to make a request for the moderators to lock this thread as it’s obvious neither side is going to compromise on this matter.

Right I think I see my problem – I’m trying to dodge immediately after casting ileap, but because the cast time has been increased it means no clone – the skill goes on full cooldown and nothing to swap to. :/

Tbh I preferred the older faster cast time when I could dodge very quickly after casting. You have to wait a moment after casting to ensure the clone is summoned before dodging otherwise it doesn’t summon and you can’t swap.

A bit disappointing because it’s not as fluid as it used to be.

Just to cement this – swap is pretty kittened right now – randomly doesen’t work too often.

I feel like I’m playing mainhand sword with one skill and one auto attack…

Might have to use scepter until this is fixed.

^I agree, Chrono should provide the best improvement to condi shatter.

What?! So much distortion? :o

I must try this later.

Only ileap/swap seems to be an issue.

But otherwise I agree, best Mesmer patch ever.

Blimey – we’ll simply have to agree to disagree.

I personally have not used any personal attacks vs devs and complained solely about the (very) bad idea of nerfing mtd based on concrete proof in twitch. I don’t know how to emphasise this point any further – they mentioned it specifically and that they were thinking about changing it to one stack.

I don’t know how you keep missing or denying this point, but I am not going to answer to such ridiculous misguided judgement from one person thinking they’re better than everyone.

I strongly believe what I posted was right and could have added to the pivot of nerfing or keeping mtd as it is. I believe if we had not caused this uproar then we might very well be looking at 1 torment stack per shatter right now. Whether it is true or not, I don’t know – and neither do you.

Anyone who has been in these forums for the last few years knows that with Mesmer, always expect the worst. This patch is the first significant good Mesmer patch since launch so for the first time ever we are actually happy about the work. To even see mention if making an existing average build even weaker with an unnecessary Nerf immediately reinforces every bit of negativity we have learnt to develop over the last few years because of past balance decisions.

Please take the misguided morality lesson elsewhere.

I will say one thing based on my limited testing time in hotjoins – MtD (the trait specifically) is not overpowered.

Other traits (cough, PU…) might be changes, but it is very easy for the torment stacks to be cleansed.

In fact one signet Mesmer was giving me an especially hard time with amazing survivability.

Caelus.7139:

Curunen.8729:

Caelus.7139:

Curunen.8729:

Woah, mantras recharge in the background now?!? :o

What a beautiful buff!

Wait, is this true? O_o

Yes.

So, if I’m not mistaken, I can cast MoD, and even if I don’t use the casts the mantra goes on cooldown? o_o

Yes – you can hold on to them for longer than their cooldown time and you’re able to immediately recharge after burning the charges.

Caelus.7139:

Curunen.8729:

Woah, mantras recharge in the background now?!? :o

What a beautiful buff!

Wait, is this true? O_o

Yes.

Hmm, something is wrong I think.

It has failed too many times even when the clone is alive – and yes after dodging.

Can anyone else confirm, or are we missing something? Seems like a bug.

Edit: weird, it works on the target golems after dodging, but has failed a number of times in combat.

Sebrent.3625:

Just to be clear, I wasn’t directing that at you skcamow. Yours was just the post confirming that MtD was still 2 stacks of torment per illusion shattered.

Honestly, I think many of the posters in the mesmer forum owe some apologies … some harsh/dumb thing were said and horribly unwarranted

Ok none of us got a screenshot from the stream to prove it to you, but please don’t go all high and mighty on what was a totally valid complaint.

I’m not going to apologise for absolutely nothing.

Sebrent.3625:

skcamow.3527:

Patch just hit – still 2 stacks per shatter. Good, hopefully it stays that way for the time being and they can evaluate. Also confusing combatants change to fury is real (EDIT: now called Master Fencer).

So, basically … it was what I said earlier …

There was no proof and people got out their torches and pitchforks for nothing.

Funny how that worked out, eh? :-p

Let’s not all now go “oh, good, they decided to not …”.

Let’s be honest … many people had knee-jerk reactions to word-of-mouth … with no hard evidence.

This thread has been an excellent example of the sort of thing the forums don’t need and probably why we see less interaction from the devs in the forums than we did when the game first launched.

What?

For all we know they changed their minds because of this thread. There’s no proof against that either.

Two scenarios:

we say nothing, it gets nerfed – bad outcome.
we say nothing, it stays the same – lucky.

we complain, it gets nerfed – worst outcome
we complain, it stays the same – best outcome.

I am very happy thank you – I am 100% happy I complained and 100% happy it stayed the same, so I don’t see what the need to belittle nearly everone in this thread is.

I do love the new trait artwork – it’s beautiful.

Dastion.3106:

Ooh I see. The CD on recharging the Mantras cools down in the background (ie 10s between MoRecovery). I had the false hope that they passively regained charges.

It’s still amazing with restorative mantras because pretty much by the time you’re done using two charges (given you will be using other skills in between as well) you can recharge again and heal yourself. I haven’t tried it with harmonious mantras yet but…

I think this might mean full mantra builds might be pretty decent now, although still mechanically difficult.

Dastion.3106:

Passive recharging is something Mantras have needed for awhile. Can they still be manually charged?

You still have to manually charge them – they only cooldown in the background after having been charged.

inb4 mantra of recovery cooldown nerf – you can essentially spam the heal continuously with a few seconds in between each activation – nevermind the restorative mantras trait…

Only downside is RSI on your heal finger. :p

Yeah it’s amazing!

Best change ever. I still can’t believe it.

Woah, mantras recharge in the background now?!? :o

What a beautiful buff!

Wow…

I’m speechless – this is amazing.

MailMail.6534:

Curunen.8729:

skcamow.3527:

Patch just hit – still 2 stacks per shatter. Good, hopefully it stays that way for the time being and they can evaluate. Also confusing combatants change to fury is real (EDIT: now called Master Fencer).

THANK GOD! :o

I don’t care that confusing combatants was changed, but praise the six that they left MtD alone!

Blessed is those who pray to Lyssa.

Amen!

Niminion.1982:

Silverkey.2078:

I did some maths and confusion combatants was just bad. On the other hand perma-fury = massive bleeding from sharper images and with the pistol traits and the fast procs of the duelist, pistol may just be our best condition off-hand weapon. Before I saw these changes, that’s actually what I was hoping for…

It was stated there was some ICD so not perma-fury. Which means this trait is garbage because you still need to get fury from other sources, and since fury doesn’t stack, if you are getting enough fury from other sources this trait might as well not even be here. It’s a practical complete deletion of a trait for duelists in many situations instead of what was one of the better minor traits for all situations.

Master Fencer: Gain fury for 5 seconds when striking a foe below 75% health. This trait has a 5-second internal cooldown.

looks like perma fury as long as you keep hitting.

skcamow.3527:

Patch just hit – still 2 stacks per shatter. Good, hopefully it stays that way for the time being and they can evaluate. Also confusing combatants change to fury is real (EDIT: now called Master Fencer).

THANK GOD! :o

I don’t care that confusing combatants was changed, but praise the six that they left MtD alone!

I’m secretly hoping the removal of confusing combatants means they keep MtD at.2 stacks per illusion.

It’s sad to see confusing combatants go without having tried it, but I’d rather lose that and keep MtD as it is compared with the other way around.

Of course if we lose both then that’s stupid and I won’t be a happy bunny.

Sebrent.3625:

Well, until someone shows me some concrete proof, I’m not going to freak out.

Now 30 is approaching so my eyes could be going, but I just double-checked this whole thread and don’t see one link, screenshot, etc..

How about we get actual proof or just wait until tomorrow before we pull out the torches and pitchforks?

I’m going to say it right now … if, when we log in after tomorrow, MtD still applies 2 stacks of torment, you’re going to feel silly at best.

No I will feel good, happy and relieved.

Best time to get loud is right now seeing as they explicitly mentioned it in the stream – which is enough proof that they’re thinking about it.

I will feel 100x more silly if I don’t say anything and they go ahead with the nerf. So my pitchfork is dusted off.

On this note I think I’m going to continue to hold off on HoT until after it has been released – wait and see how many of the good theoretical changes get nerfed into uselessness before we get to play them.

DiogoSilva.7089:

Before, MtD was a grandmaster trait that got to compete with IP.

Now, MtD is a master trait that gets IP and your grandmaster trait of choice for free.

I believe it’s a fair nerf, considering how it was indirectly double buffed.

Objectively we can currently do a 3 clone shatter for 6 stacks of torment without IP.

If this change goes through, we would be able to do a 3 clone shatter for 4 stacks of torment with IP – providing you also dive into melee to land the extra stack.

I don’t have to say that 4 clone shatters are not frequent compared to two clone ranged shatters or three at a push including shattering yourself. Hence this is a huge nerf.

None of the GM traits in Illusions or traits in any other line make up for that.

Every class is going to have some crazy builds with whatever damage – power/condition /hybrid – that will be blowing up noobs left right and centre from tomorrow.

I seriously doubt maim the disillusioned is anywhere near the top of that list.

As a comparison – with power shatter you can demolish a target golem effortlessly, and that will be even more the case after tomorrow.

The whole idea with condition shatter is condition burst – so I don’t see what the problem is with high damage ticks. If you miss your shatter, you miss your damage just like with power. The only thing condition has over power is the luxury of speccing more toughness – but then you trade off being able to 100-0 your target in 1 second (exaggeration but you get the point). You also don’t have to worry about cleansing if playing power.

And I still can’t help laughing that a single scepter 2 block will do more damage than a 4 clone shatter if this change goes through. Change kittening scepter to 4 stacks if it’s so scary and reduce the duration.

I dunno why I’m bothering posting this – maybe in the wild hope that some dev is reading this thread and reconsiders the change.

So much for silently standing in a corner… The nerf hammer has autotargeting when it comes to mesmer…

I seriously hope they reconsider before tomorrow. I was pretty excited for the patch but this single change puts a downer on the whole thing.

Please give us a chance to play with it and actually determine if it is truly overpowers vs actual human opponents who use their damage mitigation sources… not kittening target golems…