Guild Wars 2

robertul.3679:

What well that everybody uses?
Condi necro gets countered by blinds to an extent. Power does not.

OP is asking how necros prevent OTHER classes from doing damage. So yes, pretty much just well of darkness and plague form blinds. Warhorn 4 acts as an interrupt and you can try to use fear to interrupt skills, but OP already disregarded fear.

Dagger is higher dps, and has an extra “oh kitten” heal skill. Axe is nice if you have to drop back for range a bit. So it becomes situationally dependent on if you need a bit of range or not.

NeXeD.3042:

Darwec.3784:

Knighthonor.4061:

NeXeD.3042:

D/w staff

/15chars

TY notice major difference.

I personally run dagger /warhorn dagger/dagger. I try to blind stomp people with the dagger/dagger set, but its not necessarily the best idea. dagger/warhorn + staff is more normal.

You can blind stomp with staff and wells and it’s aoe, I usually throw down a well to prevent ressing, but you could use it to try and blind stomp people

It means sacraficing dagger dps if things go south while stomping. Like i said, not optimal, and certainly not for everyone, but its my prefered way. It works especially well on guardians who apply burning and such, so you throw their condis back along with a blind.

Edit:
Let me actually clarify: i run a very strange build that happens to work for the group of friends i frequently run with. So yeah, probably DONT take d/d over staff.

Knighthonor.4061:

NeXeD.3042:

D/w staff

/15chars

TY notice major difference.

I personally run dagger /warhorn dagger/dagger. I try to blind stomp people with the dagger/dagger set, but its not necessarily the best idea. dagger/warhorn + staff is more normal.

I am assuming a power build since you’re running lich?
use locust swarm, immobilize a target, drop wells, go into ds, use 4 and 5. One of those things should proc your air and fire sigils, and the rest are nice damage to multiple targets.

Alternatively, take the down state damage trait, kill yourself, and then burst them down

Kain Francois.4328:

I actually tested out Necro DPS awhile back.

Believe it or not, Life Blast spam with full Zerker and Runes of Strength does LESS damage than a Zerker Thief just using Dagger autoattack and NO MIGHT.

I once recorded them both at once, and manually wrote down the numbers for 30 seconds.

I do not have the exact numbers or videos saved, but just trust my word on this. Life Blast fully specced with Rune of Strength is approximately 1.4x weaker than a Dagger Thief with no Might using Dagger auto.

This does not surprise me. LB is low DPS. I belive the order of necro dps is: Lich auto attack, dagger auto attack, life blast, axe/staff, scepter (because its a condi weapon)

I think i am just confused and misunderstanding / misusing the tool. I am sorry. I belive the point here is that in the end necros do less dps relatively speaking to other classes while also not bringing the utility others do.

spoj.9672:

Use your brain and create compositions which cover all required utility and buffs and then compare dps between those compositions. Thats the purpose of the calculator. Its a useful tool. It doesnt factor everything in. But it doesnt need to…

Its a tool to check the dps of your group. Its as simple as that. Its good at what it does. That might not be what you want. But thats your problem.

No, I understand what you’re saying, its just strange to use in a discussion like this when it counts differnt levels for personal might when in reality everyone would likely have 25 stacks. It counts differnt foods, when in reality most people all just use the same food. It may be a useful tool, but first off, its less than helpful here where you need either more controlled numbers, or to take real world norms into account. More over, it straight up doesnt matter since DPS isnt the main limiting factor.

So yes, it is not what I want or am looking for, and that may well be my problem.

Aktium.9506:

Darwec.3784:

That calculator is weird and sketch O.o where are the numbers coming from, how does any of this work. Why is food not standardized? Where are the assumptions about might coming from? Is spicy beans bowl of sweet and spicy beans? So far from a scientific look at necro dps. This is clearly making a lot of behind the sences assumptions about builds / rotations and calculations. DPS over what time frame? Burst dps over 10 seconds is differnt than prolonged dps over a minute.

It literally links you to the spreadsheet used. The DPS calculations are under a 30s period. The assumptions are sound.

I’ve already read over that. The dps under 30s period was not stated. I still argue that sweet and spicy beans is an odd choice. The rotations arnt stated explicitcly, just referenced, etc. Blanket generic calculators are stupid.

Sebrent.3625:

The calculator aside, there have been videos on this that touch on it not so much being the lack of damage but the lack of “other things” that is why the Necromancer is not as “valuable” as something like the “3 Kings of All Metas” (Elementalist, Guardian, Warrior).

• Elementalist is providing Fury, Might, Heals, Regeneration, Cleanses, Blinds, CC, etc. while outputting the same or better damage.
• Guardian is providing Reflects, Projectile Blocks, Aegis, Protection, Might, etc. while outputting the same or better damage.
• Warrior is providing Might, Fury, Banners, Vulnerability, etc. while outputting the same or better damage.

A Necromancer isn’t bad. You’re just stuck in the same place as Ranger and others … others just do the same as you and then some more.

This is correct. You dont take classes to dungeons because they do DPS. You take them because they do DPS and something else. Condi cleanse, fury, might, stun/cc, damage mitigation, stealth, quickness, SOMETHING to make your class useful. Necro only does dps, and does it supbar. Its ability to buff allies or to debuff targets is either poor,or other classes do it better.

Gryph.8237:

if im in lich form, i can usually kill the downed person before the stomp animation goes off haha. I would rather focus on the living than the downed anyways, as im using lich to turn the tide and kill everyone.

DO you know how many times ive been in lich downing people left and right and no one on my team can secure a stomp because everyone is awful but its still somehow the necros fault? Im not convinced we should beable to finish in lich, but killing downed people while lich is still super important.

CrashQuest.7132:

This will predominantly be a dungeon/pve build

Valkyrie Gear/Scholar Runes
Greatsword / Axe+Focus
Your Soul is Mine/Consume Corruptions
Youre all Weaklings
Well of Suffering
Suffer
Chill to the kitteneaper:
Augury of Death/Decimate Defences/Blighters boon
Spite:
Reapers might/death shiver/close to death
Soul Reaping:
Unyeilding Blast/Vital persistence/Death Perception

My idea is with vuln pretty much at 25 stacks i can maintain 100% crit chance. The valkyrie gear is for a larger Shroud pool as well as raw damage and crit damage. My trait spread helps me maintain a good number of vuln keeping my crit chance up as well as helping me keeping my shroud up as long as possible. The weapons chosen were for a good way to ramp up the vuln.
Ut may be a selfish build but we necros are an inhenrantly selfish class. And with Reaper giving us a way to really chunk through health nicely who needs group support when youre just reaping through everything in youre path XD

This is pretty similar to the other power builds except:

You’re taking blighters boon over chilling onslaught, which will lower your in DS dps. It will make lf/hp generation faster. It will have to be seen how much extra lf generation is needed, but it seems like the RS auto attack chain would generate quite a bit of lf.

Also you’re taking reapers might which may or may not be useful in dungeons with a phalanx warrior giving you 25 stacks. If you have a phalanx, this skill becomes pretty useless compared to the other options.

Taking death perception and valk means you have more of a hp/lf pool, and 100% critchance in DS but with zerkers and dhuum fire you have almostconstant 100% crit chance and a little extra condi damge.

Minor differences and interesting considerations. Differnt build styles for differnt parties comps / dungeons.

That calculator is weird and sketch O.o where are the numbers coming from, how does any of this work. Why is food not standardized? Where are the assumptions about might coming from? Is spicy beans bowl of sweet and spicy beans? So far from a scientific look at necro dps. This is clearly making a lot of behind the sences assumptions about builds / rotations and calculations. DPS over what time frame? Burst dps over 10 seconds is differnt than prolonged dps over a minute.

ronpierce.2760:

Hold out for the new Blood magic. I still think some power might like the ranged dps and support of playing Spite/BM/SR. Some MM builds might also prefer DM/BM/SR. Etc.

Excuse me: I mean, AS IT STANDS, every necro will want to take reaper. I hope that the bloodmagic rework is good, and i hope that they do carefully look at all the comments people made in the other thread.

Roe.3679:

I think if anything, you are being welcomed to continue playing core necro if you want to, that’s why Reaper Shroud only comes in with the elite line. Reaper shroud is revamping the class and the implementation means you don’t have to use it if you don’t want to.

The question is: is there ever a build for which you WONT want to. Power will want to take it. There are spvp bunker builds that will enjoy it. I believe many / most condi builds want it? I havent seen anyone take spite/curses/soul reaping for example. Most builds that dont currently incorporate reaper can drop one of their current lines, pick up Reaper, and be better. And that is a problem, because it means every necro will have to buy the expansion to do well.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/necromancer/Follow-Up-Forum-Specialist-Feedback/page/6#post5085542

specifically the report that was forwarded said

There was a report that was compiled / forwarded of user complaints. Im assuming reading through that report and processing it and coming to a decision will take some time.

I think you can still commune and things in Lich form, but if you drop out of lich while communing it interrupts \o/.

Anchoku.8142:

Does anyone else have a vague feeling that Reaper may be a nerf to anything but trash mob farming?

The problems with many of the current traits and skills have not been addressed and Reaper seems designed to abandon everything but a short-range power/AoE build.

Considering what seems to be an increased focus on fast-paced, ranged combat, Necromancer / Reaper may become even more disadvantaged. We will have to wait and see, of course, but Reaper is definitely a slow, short-range tank profession. Slow things are easy targets in modern combat and need constant protection.

Its certainly a buff to single target melee boss fights. And there are still quite a few of those. For example, in the vine wrath you can usually melee any of the bosses except the terragriff. And for that, for ranged damage, you are correct, you shouldnt take the reaper. And that is what we’ve all pointed out, and told the devs, and that the devs are (hopefully) looking into.

Given how they said they’re settinig up traits, it shouldnt be difficult to swap off reaper for curses/deathmagic/blood magic. So if you need range / are doing more ranged open world content you swap one trait line, and boom you have range. If you’re doing dungeons / melee bosses, you swap to reaper. As long as they make the other trait lines good, this should work out. Right now our ranged options are lich, scepter condi, and standard DS. Axe and Staff are pretty lackluster ranged options, so hopefully they get looked at. And hopefully the other trait lines get looked at too so we’re not stuck sub par builds half the time.

Sigmoid.7082:

You can get new max stacks yourself even with the -50% duration and you owuldnt be the only one stacking vuln since lots of skills do it. . So even though it does seem like a good idea it gets out shined by other sigils due to the fact you can put out so much vuln as it is.

I think you can easily BURST 25 stacks. Im not sure you could maintain it through a boss fight solo. Though, yes, other people should also be applying vuln, so it might not be useful.

Sigmoid.7082:

Darwec.3784:

spoj.9672:

Its almost certain to be berserker. The chill sigils arent worth getting for PvE. So same sigils as before (force, night, slaying etc). Assassins is going to fall out thanks to decimate defences and maybe even just the stat point changes.

For solo stuff you might want strength runes. In groups where might isnt an issue then scholar runes will still be best.

Id argue force/frailty for pve. Other than that i agree.

I would say frailty would be a nad choice with the amount of vuln you would put out using just unyielding blast and death shiver.

It might be, but bosses suffer reduced duration for vulnerability correct? So every 3 seconds you apply 5 seconds of vulnerability, 3 stacks. Unyeilding blast does 2 stacks, so essentially 4 stacks every two-ish seconds (not counting the trait reduction).

The stacks from death shiver would stack up to 6 stacks max on their own. Unyeilding, worst case, would be 8 ish stacks. Maybe 10. Thats still only 14-16 stacks? I think there is room for some gains.

spoj.9672:

Its almost certain to be berserker. The chill sigils arent worth getting for PvE. So same sigils as before (force, night, slaying etc). Assassins is going to fall out thanks to decimate defences and maybe even just the stat point changes.

For solo stuff you might want strength runes. In groups where might isnt an issue then scholar runes will still be best.

Id argue force/frailty for pve. Other than that i agree.

Fixing death magic, blood magic, and some of the less frequently used utilities would be a much better way to give necros support. For example, I rarely use Corrosive Poison Cloud, Epedemic, Plague Signet, Spectral grasp, Summon Blood fiend, or signet of undeath. As for the shouts, the report sent was supposed to an include a tidbit about the shouts being lack luster. So lets wait and see what they come up with for those.

Ideally, A power dps necro should look like spite/soul reaping/reaper or spite/soul reaping/curses if they dont have the expansion. A support necro should be taking blood and or death magic instead. Things of that nature. Not every necro build should find their best traits in one to three lines.

PaxTheGreatOne.9472:

The actual proffessions shouldn’t matter too much either as long as you have 1 or 2 reflects 1 or 2 aoe blindness… you’ll be facerolling most dungeons except maybe CoE, HotW and Arah… I see people complaining well you bring nothing to the party,

and they add warrior has banners and empower allies, guardians have strength in numbers (NOBODY uses strength in numbers in meta), rangers have spotter (most rangers are kicked ASAP, like necro’s) and they form a party only to show: NO FOOD NO UTILITY and most of the time no dungeon gear… losing 100 power, 70 precision and 33% dmg modifier and 10% dmg reduction and STILL they do not see the error…

See thats the problem. If you’re running with a good group who has dungeon gear and the right traits (which I do) you have a thief who brings blind fields and stealth. You have An ele or two who brings better blinds, better chill, fire fields, blast finishers, ice bows, and more damage than necros. Guardians bring reflects and agis and other tools. Warriors have banners, might sharing, etc.

And more over, and more importantly, all those classes can and should be switching off utilites throughout the dungeon. So you switch on thief between your power signet, sr, and your blind field frequently.

Necros either dont have that option, or their options are sup bar. I can switch my power signet off for well of darkness, but thievs and glyph of storms in earth on ele is better than well of darkness. I cant provide any useful fields. I cant provide blasts.

Every other class can situationally switch between skills as needed so they can switch from doing optimal DPS to helping the party out with strategic purposes. Necros only usefulness in dungeons is them doing their opt dps. MAYBE bringing a blind field. With reaper, it will be a choice between opt DPS (while doing vuln) or blind (while doing vuln) But thats still only 2 utilites that other classes already do well. Like i can be the perfect necro, doing my most DPS, swapping to what little party support i have when i need to. But necros do very few things, and it doesnt do any of those few things better than other classes. If you’re a good player and you’re in a good group, the difference is huge. If you’re a bad player, or you’re group is dropping the ball, it doesnt matter anyways and the discussion is pointless.

Gryph.8237:

At least while the spectral aspect of the skill was up (max 8 seconds). So, like warriors who become immune to conditions for 8 seconds, we become immune to missles until the skill is up, which is also cancelled if we hit it again to tele back to where we initiated the skill. The arrows/missles would pass through you.

Cool idea.

So instead of being destoryed they just pierce through you but you dont take the damage? Seems like if they could find a way to implement it, it would be cool. Also seems kind of trolly if you have ppl standing behind you.

Comus.7365:

is PvE really that poorly made in this game? i have not really paid much attention to it yet. been mostly focused on PvP.. but if i understand it right Dungeons are all about stacking buffs/players and abusing mechanics. is that supposed to be fun?

yes. thats what it is in every other mmo too. Its not that the dungeons are that terrible. If you do the mechanics they can be “fun.” But the player base is a bunch of mmo players. In every other mmo, you stack, use buffs and burn as hard as you can. Doing mechanics only happens if you’re forced into it.

As for necros and the zerker meta, nercros fit fine into the DPS meta if you understand it and if you understand how all the dungeons work.

Let me give examples of what ive seen other necros do that clearly does not work:
Dont bring condis to dungeons. That just makes no sense.
Dont use axe unless you’re forced to go range. Its a sub par weapon. Only go range if you really have to.
Dont camp Death Shroud. Death shroud is significantly less damage than dagger.
Dont bring signet of locust. If you’re not using wells + signet of spite, you’re doing less than optimal damage.
Know when to use well of darkness. There are lots of places, like in TA or in the Hammer Fractal, where blinds are super important.
For the love of god, dont fear things. There are so many necros that use staff fear or the 3 in Death shroud. If you ever fear something in a dungeon for any reason other than to remove defiance stacks, you SHOULD get kicked.
Stack on the group, this is impossible not to do if you’re on dagger. But if you’re in lich, or if you decided to bring axe anyways, you STILL should be stacked up on the boss. Often times being range screws up aggro. If the target is moving around you’re going to screw everyone elses rotation.

The problem is that i see a lot of necros in dungeons who i pug with range. I see them try to run condi because necro is seen as the condition class. I see them try to bring staff for utility, or run minion mancer in dungeons. And there are just so many BAD dungeon necro builds, and only one-ish semi acceptable build. It needs to be understood that the necro wvw/pvp builds just do not translate to PVE at all. Even if necros are a selfish dps, as long as they are doing OPTIMAL damage for their class thats ok, runs wont slow down too much and people wont get too upset. The problem is when you bring a necro build that doesnt fit with the other meta classes. And there are too many necros who do that.

Dont get me wrong. I am not at all saying that necros are balanced. Their DPS is lower than every other class and they provide no utility. But there are still just some terrible necros out there, mostly because most people dont know how to build a necro for dungeons since its so rarely played.

PVE dungeon build, assuming a phalanx warrior or other source of might:
http://dulfy.net/gw2traits#build=AgQBaAVsBnw~

Dagger/warhorn + gs. Signet of Spite, well of suffering/darkness, lich form and probably the shout heal. Open with GS for the vulnerability skill, swap to dagger, Build up life force, go in to reaper, go to town. With zerker gear and constant vulnerability application, this should give you 80-100% crit and pretty high vuln. You might even high 80% crit without zerker gear if you have an ele and a warrior in party with fury and banner.

Pvp Bunkerish build
http://dulfy.net/gw2traits#build=AgQBmAXoBqQ~
I was trying to work something out where i would drop in and out of DS and gain health while in DS and gain life force while out of ds from self might application. Keeping chill up and dealing damage to chilled targets is easy enough out of DS. Hope that Auto attack might is enough while in DS.

Again, Dagger/warhorn + gs. not sure about the ammulet for spvp though.

Edit: Maybe this is a better bunker build? http://dulfy.net/gw2traits#build=AgQBmAPsBqQ~

Idk, pugging is weird. Try to find a guild who treats you well. Once you can prove to people that you’re good at your class they’re usually pretty nice about it.

So i got my guild to be ok with me being necro by just bringing my necro on runs and not sucking at it. If i bring my ele or phalanx it still goes faster, but it doesnt go TERRIBLY. They still hate pug necros though because people do weird things like bring condi builds to dungeons, or use staff 5 while stacking in fractals :|

I cant tell you how to make people WANT a necro. I can tell you how to make people not HATE your necro.

Stack, use dagger, use your damage wells. If you’re in a dungeon where you need blinds for trash pulls, bring ur blind well instead of your signet. Make yourself somewhat useful. Dont fear things. Dont range unless you have to. Stack and burn like the rest of the classes. Bring power not condi. Dont bring minions either. In dungons there are 4 good utilites: well of power/darkness/corruption and signet of spite. Sometimes your flesh golem is useful as a meat shield, but you have to know when and how to use it.

You still wont be wanted, but atleast you dont make yourself a pain :\

Softspoken.2410:

I think the only major thing I’m still hoping for is some form of Endurance interaction in Blood Magic. I think it could fit well with the self-sustain vampire option (Drain endurance from enemies?), or vigor could be available somewhere in the minor traits.

I suppose it could also show up in the Death Magic line since that seems to be the other “For Defense” line? But Blood Magic just seems like it should be the self-sustain line, and getting dodges back faster seems like a form of sustain that’s high in demand for Necromancers.

Seems like blood magic is for healing / siphons. Death magic for tanking. So siphon buffs for blood magic preferably. Vigors/protections/immunes and other things to the other line if possible.

Really, and i want to state this once more before the report gets pushed, the change for the curses minor trait from doing 2% damage per condition to 2% crit per condition is painful. Also, it has been stated by the gms that the curses gm trait does not need a power based GM, but if its meant to be the crit line, atleast give it a crit trait. Right now all the GM traits are condi.

I feel like at this point we all have a lot of suggestions, but we just really need an actual physical build to test with.

I think the biggest gripe so far has been the GS’s limited use cases depending on numbers? And that is the problem everything is so dependent on numbers. Just need something real.

flow.6043:

Bhawb.7408:

spoj.9672:

…

This is rather awful for a number of reasons. Obviously it is a very significant nerf to PvP builds, it also kills the synergy that Death Shiver and Bitter Chill had, it removes the double-boon removal, kills Axe/DS builds, and there are multiple traits that just aren’t in the right tier. It is way worse than the current setup is.

I wouldn’t say Death Shiver and Bitter Chill have synnergy, but it would be weird to have two vulnerability traits and Signet Mastery competing for the same slot.
I can see why spoj wants more damage modifiers and have them line up with other PvE traits, but would freeing up Spiteful Talisman really make that much of a difference? Not that moving some traits around is a bad idea in general, but I perhaps they should instead look at the idea of reviving our current Target the Weak (with some extra features) for gm Curses.

Are people not planning to take spiteful talisman in pve? Is bitter chill that good for pve? You can stack high enough vulnerability without that trait in PVE for the crit bonus.

Softspoken.2410:

While I think you can make a good argument for putting the revealed debuff on stealth expiring, the current interaction has destroyed Shadow Refuge.

Oh yeah. The current version seems like a total bug and 100% accidental. It shouldnt be applying revealed at the loss of each stack. That renders most stealth skills useless. And the fact that revealed EATS stealth duration is very strange. Its not like you lose a stack, get revealed, and pop out of stealth. You lose a stack, get revealed, and suddenly your other stacks lose 2 seconds, you get revealed again, lose another 2 seconds…

It seems very much like the idea was to modify stealth such that on losing ALL stealth stacks, you receive reveal for a short duration. It also seems they messed up such that you get that debuff every time you lose a stack. seems like an incomplete experiment someone was trying out that accidentally got pushed

So this is how im seeing this bug working: So lets take Shadow Refuge for Example. It pules 5 times, you get 3 seconds of stealth per pulse. So when that first stealth stack hits, 3 seconds later you get “revealed”. So every time you lose a stealth stack, you get revealed. Also, getting hit with revealed eats seconds off your stealth stacks.

flow.6043:

ronpierce.2760:

And instead of them balancing around the chance of a well + Axe 2 + WH 5 (best case scenario possibilities) they can just have them stream at a reliable and beneficial pace.

I like how you’ve listed those skills as best case scenario when the whole discussion about vamp trait balance started because you’ll be able to heal through Reaper’s Shroud.
Really, if well + axe2 + Locust Swarm were so good with Blood Magic then everyone would be using that already. The only thing that will change is that those siphons will work through Shroud, so that makes your best case wells + Shroud skills + Locust Swarm. It’s really not that different, especially when the siphon values stay as low as they are now.

To be fair, I really dont know why all the power builds right now are 6/6/0/0/2 instead of 6/5/0/3/0 and i kind of need someone to explain that to me. It seems like the extra hits would be more than the slight extra crit damage. So in that sense if you didnt take reaper (or couldnt because you dont have the expansion), would blood magic not be a worth while trait line?

Even with the current proposed changes Unholy Scant might add to blighters boon to make an interesting bunker build. http://dulfy.net/gw2traits#build=AgQBqAPsBqQ~

Gaining health or LF every time you hit a target, regaining HP twice as fast when you’re in DS, and just dropping into DS instead of lethal blows. It would essentially leave the enemy a 10 second window to burst you down after they run your DS out, otherwise you would have some fun times.

The problem is that such a bunker gives no support (except maybe vulnerability to surrounding enemies). More over, unholy sanctuary is just a crutch for people not watching their HP. http://dulfy.net/gw2traits#build=AgQBqAXoBuQ~ is likely a better build. So now with soul reaping, your Life force drains slower, you can drop into DS more frequently (7s cd instead of 10) and you deal more damage. Essentially, Death magic is only good for players who are not attentive to their surroundings (or if there are situations where there is too much going on to pay attention to all of it).

flow.6043:

The reason you never ever see players using other healing skills than Consume Conditions (even MMs don’t use Blood Fiend) is because they don’t heal enough to compensate for the loss of utility you get with Consume. Also, Vamp Signet, Blood Fiend and Well of Blood don’t work if you’re in Death Shroud, so that makes those worse heals even worse.

In most dungeons, consume provides no utility since there are such few actual condis applied in dungeons that will kill you. Even when there are, you’re usually with an ele or a guardian so those will get cleansed for you. On top of that, dodging mitigates most damage, so the power of your heal straight up doesnt matter. Any of your heals will likely heal you enough to keep you over 90% hp which is all that matters with scholar runes. So…atleast in dungeons…its not that consume conditions is SO GOOD, its just that it really dosnet matter WHAT heal you take. In every other situation, consume is the obvious choice unless you find awkward situational uses for the others.

Harnel.6810:

Darwec.3784:

Seriously, the only good elites are lich and plague. The golem is sometimes useful for being a meat shield. The shout seems awful in PVE and will never see its full potential in sPVP.

On the contrary – lich form can be a big hindrance in a few situations, particularly when enemies have reflects, and plague form is terrible if you aren’t a condi spec. the Golem may not always be the best choice, but it’s far from useless, and it has consistent, decent damage.

That might be true. Lich is easily countered by blinds and reflects, but by and large its a better option than golem. Though i suppose you’re right, golem has its place.

Vizardlorde.8243:

ronpierce.2760:

Tadsoul.6951:

I agree those numbers were very low on damage. Im not sure on what gear he was using but those werent big numbers.

The only way he could hit 30k hp is by having a Vit primary ammy, meaning he had to have been at LEAST short like 300 power. His crit wasn’t there either so he was likely in Sentinel’s.

Nope Sentinel’s on a necro wouldve put him at 32k min now that traits dont have stats anymore
it definitly had a lot vitality but it wasn’t the main stat of the whole set.

It doesnt really matter, because the tooltip was a static screenshot anyways i think? It didnt change when he gained might. So it could have been a totally differnt set of gear when the tooltip was screenshot and when they actually did the play test.

Basically, we dont know anything until we physically get to play with it ourselves.

Erasmus.1624:

Darwec.3784:

Anet’s not taking away the dps meta. That’s here to stay.

You say that like there is a way to intimidate or dissuade the PvE mobs from trying to kill you by rolling well on your charisma stat or by increasing their damage percentage and knocking them off of the battleground with an up smash.

Darwec.3784:

And this is the problem. The other classes dont have to choose between dps and utility. necro does.

You make this sound like a critical problem instead of it being the only instance of an actual meaningful role choice or unique playstyle in all of gw2.

These comments are on the same asinine level as “I don’t want to go fast; I want everyone else to go slow,” guy.

Just…what? What does anything in that post mean? It IS a critical problem. That “role choice” doesnt actually exist.

Zefrost.3425:

It’s safe to say he was using a terrible spec for some reason. He had 25k-30k hp in the clips.

It might not be that bad. It might be valk or soliders and the difference in numbers we saw were from the fact that the beta might have differnt base stat numbers / differnt numbers on the amulets now.

Seriously, the only good elites are lich and plague. The golem is sometimes useful for being a meat shield. The shout seems awful in PVE and will never see its full potential in sPVP.

Golby.5348:

Erasmus.1624:

At what cost? What is meta-viable in GW2? Passive healing and instant triggers?

Those things literally everyone else has?

Yeah.

Sorry, giving Necromancer things on par with other professions doesn’t suddenly make GW2’s game design any more “degenerate” or “skill-less” than it already is, it just means there’s another “degenerate” “skill-less” prof that’s actually allowed to play the game.

Sorry, but we need to fix game elements based around what the game currently is, not around every game designer’s pipe dream about how it should play.

The DPS, passive healing, active invulnerability defense meta isn’t going away without severe, PR-ruining nerfs to nearly every profession. Necromancer is one of the few that hasn’t been kept up to speed with it, not part of an invisible “skill mandatory” majority.

Well to be fair, you could change the game meta without breaking other professions. More fights should be closer to what mai tran or the grawl shaman are. You take constant, small damage. Enough constant damage that your single heal skill and 2 dodges are not enough. Enough so that instead of active immunes you require frequent small heals in the form of regen or a necro walking up to you and life blast healing you in the face. Not that we even do THAT very well.

But anyways, yes more pipe dreams. Anet’s not taking away the dps meta. That’s here to stay. You can see that from GW1 was, what GW2 became. You can see it in the content they have released thus far and the patches and changes they’ve made. This relatively casual dps meta is here to stay, its exactly the game they want. And necros dont fit into it in any way right now.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

Are you accounting for attack speed from the trait and the ability to recharge gravedigger on low targets? Repeated 2’s are pretty strong! Also necro will have a trait called Rending Shroud that will be putting up monstrous amounts of vuln. Not to mention the traits that make your auto attack in Reaper Shroud cause vuln and might!

Assuming that in the video they were not using the attack speed trait, and that using the attack speed trait gets reaper auto attack down to close to dagger AA speed. Assuming that the coefficients we saw were based on barbarians or celestial amulet and not on berserk. Assuming a lot of things. Reaper MIGHT be better than our dagger auto attack chain. Thats a lot of assumptions for a maybe.

So, lets take those assumptions and hope that Reaper is more DPS than dagger. Then the optimal power PVE build would look like this: http://dulfy.net/gw2traits#build=AgQBaAVsBnw~

Where you have 100% crit chance using berzerkers gear, and you have dhuumfire on Auto attacks. This maxes out necro DPS. The auto attack chain from reaper will have similar or just slightly better damage than current dagger auto attack, plus an extra 300 burning every 3 seconds. SO thats nice, we’ve gotten a dps boost there and made death shroud relevant.

More importantly, we bring some utility now by bursting to 25 stacks of vulnerability. Thats important. We can now provide vulnerability stacks while still maintaining max dps. This is something other classes can do, bring utility and max dps. (Ele can do max dps and provide fury, guardians can do dps and provide regen protection reflects, etc). Now we’re close to being on par, thats nice.

BUT, and this is a major but, our dps is STILL lower than ele thief or guard. Our utility is still a short burst instead of sustained through a fight like ele fury is. And this is the ONLY viable necro pve build, and the ONLY viable support weve seen so far from these changes.

The shouts are pretty bad, chill has no place in dungeons, fear and condis have no place in dungons. The Greatsword, even given #2 spamming, is pretty bad. Maybe that #2 spam becomes good in pve once boss is below 50%. So RS until 50%, and t hen GS spam after. But then you lose the vulnerability you were providing through deathshroud, so now you’re back to doing max dps with no utility.

And this is the problem. The other classes dont have to choose between dps and utility. necro does.

Erasmus.1624:

Darwec.3784:

Seriously have you played a [insert game mode here] necro?

Yes, and while it isn’t good, there are other ways to improve it that aren’t “pls gib instant effects and passive hard counters so I can keep mashing effortless buttons like everyone else in the game” or “pls make necro like warrior and guardian.”

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/necromancer/A-good-necromancer/first#post5026965

And even then, people never fail to think just in terms of necromancer. GW2 is a game out of whack. This isn’t just about necro. The main reason why necro is “underpowered” is because everything is just far too overtuned past any threshold which would allow player skill to make a real difference in combat.

I agree with your second statement. The problem with the game is the style of combat requires that you have a dps meta. But I also firmly believe anet will NEVER change that. And as long as there is a dps meta, instant effects are NECESSARY.

Erasmus.1624:

The Wizland.8435:

After looking at the shouts a bit more, I have to say the cast times are a bit extreme.
“Your soul is mine” has way too low of a heal for a 3/4 sec cast time and gives little incentive to use it over Consume Conditions. I think this would be interesting if it had an instant or 1/4 sec cast time, giving way for a great sustain heal.
“You are all weaklings” seems fine.
1.25 sec cast time on “Suffer!” is way too high for too low reward. 0.75 sec cast time would work better.
“Nothing can save you” looks good.
I’m uncertain about “Rise”. 1.5 sec cast time makes me nervous, but with certain traits and which minion it’s changed to (if it is) could make it justified.
Having a 2 sec cast time on the elite effectively disables you for the same duration it disables your enemy (assuming they don’t stunbreak). For this I suggest having the stun not be removed by stunbreaks and increasing the stun duration to 3 seconds.

Please don’t ask for more crutches. Anything at or below a 0.5 second activation time is outside of the range of reliable counterplay. Don’t just get things for free. Opponents don’t have fun because they can’t do anything about what you are doing, and you aren’t being rewarded for anything because you aren’t taking risks to perform any important actions.

Seriously have you played a pve necro? Its awful. And pvp and wvw are such small aspects of gw2. 75% of the player base is most engaged in PVE, so that is really the focus. Necros are forced to be good in only pvp and wvw, and even then its questionable. All of the necro skills are already super telegraphed. The gs will get interrupted or dodged, the wells all have cast times, our spectral grasp is a projectile, staff is a projectile, axe is a piece of trash. Scepter and dagger are currently our only viable damage options and they’re super low compared to any other class. the minons suck, and everything else is a condi or a buff. So its not out of line to ask for things. Its not out of line to say, hey can we get some shouts that either dont totally suck or atleast function with no cast time. Thats a perfectly reasonable request.

Shiki.7148:

KashimKudal.2961:

Shiki.7148:

They should simply balance it around 3 targets, so 5 will be better than normal and 1 worse than normal.

The shout already hits five people. Also we don’t know if the vocalization is called after the 2s or before(Someone Confirm). If its after then it looks like any other regular channel right? Besides applying 12s of chill to anyone is pretty strong. Keeping in mind guys the KS #5 is quite similar to the shout in some ways. So you can see it as having 3 executes if you like CTTB being longest to cast at 2 the others Gravedigger and Executioners Scythe taking 1 1/4s to cast.

You completely missed the point. Currently they balance it around the “best case scenario”, meaning hitting 5. That where they base all cd’s and casttimes around, which is stupid, as in reality in sPvP it will be mostly hitting 2-3 enemies. Which means they should balance those things around THREE enemies being hit instead of FIVE. Meaning all casttimes reduced by half, and cooldowns reduced on the high CD shouts by 20% or similar. Then in the very unlikely case you have 5 enemies around you in PvP it will be crazy good, if you have 2-3 its good, with 1 its bad to decent. Of course in PvE it would be 5 enemies a lot more often, but who cares if these types of shouts are a little on the strong side in PvE. Especially since other classes can do similar things currently. And as for WvW… Well they would have to test how it works there for perfect numbers.

Actually this is the key word. TEST THE SHOUTS IN REAL SITUATIONS. Not balance them based on theory crafting and hitting stationary golems that are conveniantly piled up.

Unfortunately, that cant happen until atleast a beta test. More likely it will be theory crafted, released, then rebalanced

The Wizland.8435:

The Gates Assassin.9827:

1. Blast Finishers – It’s not happening. It’s super not-necro like. There are other ways to be viable.

The thing that bugs me here is we already have some skills that fit blast finishers. Blast finishers don’t need to be explosions or anything like that, just a pulse of force propelled outwards in a circle/sphere (like axe #3 hint hint). We even have explosions on a couple traits (for example; Death Nova literally has explosion in the description) and there are ways to make explosions necro-like. I’m not saying we need immense access, just a reliable skill for it. But apart from that, I’m liking the new stuff. Shouts are a bit underwhelming but everything else looked great. Having an instant cooldown skill is crazy and I love it.

What bothers me most about this is we already HAVE some blast finishers. They just suck.

phys.7689:

Darwec.3784:

Im actually pretty happy about the healing shout. I like the idea of damage dealing heals. I know a lot of people find the new healing shout and signet of vampirism bad, but Seeing as you can avoid most pve damage anyways, id rather take extra DPS when i do need an emergency heal

the dmg on these skills is negligable, the only purpose they really serve is to proc on crit/on hit traits.

this may be true, but consume conditions is overrated for pve. I already get by in PVE without it, instead using signet of vamp as a DPS skill totally giving up the heal. The shout does 4k heals which is pleanty of pve, damage, and LF regen. It is very much a viable option for both pve and pvp.

Im not saying signet of vamp or the new shout are the best heals and the only options. I am saying they are much more viable than people make them out to be, and consume conditions is over hyped.

I firmly believe that consume conditions is a highly over rated skill in pve, is only situationly useful in pvp, and probably only shines in wvw. the only reason so many people take consume in pvp is because there is no viable alternative. i do not understand at all why anyone takes consume conditions in pve.

Im actually pretty happy about the healing shout. I like the idea of damage dealing heals. I know a lot of people find the new healing shout and signet of vampirism bad, but Seeing as you can avoid most pve damage anyways, id rather take extra DPS when i do need an emergency heal