Guild Wars 2

extra post for new page bug

You came at this thread with a condescending tone (then ironically accusing me of the same) that extends beyond this thread, and I certainly don’t recall being the instigator for nitpicking, which you have once again proven to have done here.

Yes, while you were technically not wrong in your claim that the thread had deviated from OP, what good have you attained with your technical correctness?

Our disagreement seems to be on your implicit assertion that such deviation was neither productive nor on topic. I argue that OP’s vagueness meant that he never “owned” the “topic” to begin with, and challenge you to actually follow through with some substance to what you imply in your first post. At best you can claim that OP started a meaningless thread that deserves to be closed.

As far as the name calling, I will fight fire with fire. Don’t deal what you can’t take. You have zero moral high ground here.

Olvendred.3027:

Dave.2536:

Olvendred.3027:

Except that there are multiple scenarios discussed in this thread. And even if there weren’t, it wouldn’t detract from the essence of what I said.

Sorry. It turns out that adopting a patronising tone does not make you correct.

• gets called out
• doubles down without support
• randomly asserts that his bet is 100% safe
• accuses others of the same tone he came to this thread with

Why do I feel like I’m talking to Ken Ham right now? The irony in this one is so strong it’s almost biblical.

You “called me out” on the nit-picking basis there was only one scenario considered in this thread, whereas I had said “different scenarios” (plural). A cursory glance at the first page will show posts talking about: PvE, WvW without queue, WvW with queue and OP not being provocative, and WvW with queue and OP being provocative.

Speaking of irony… you did the exact same thing you accuse me of, except worse, and being incorrect all the while.

And still haven’t managed to address the point I made in my first post, that you are arguing passionately over scenarios you have concocted yourselves, based on unsupported assumptions of the OP’s post.

But I’m sorry I made you feel so insecure about it.

First of all what’s wrong about talking about a more generalized case? People won’t be able to relate perfectly with OP especially given the incoherence of his one and only post.

Yes, the thread adapted and you didn’t. Get over yourself. I sort of ignored that bit of your first post because I didn’t think you’d be dense enough to actually be so serious about it.

You then point out “scenarios” which are basically fragments that aren’t even mutually exclusive, and a few made up ones which exist only in your head and outside this thread.

Trying to refute people by stating and asserting things either without support or so vaguely that they may not technically be wrong…keep it up Ken. Tell me more about Noah’s Ark and tax evasion too.

Vincent.7452:

Dave.2536:

Pve map completion is many times longer than wvw map completion any way you look at it

No. It’s only many times longer when you decide the impact of enemy players is 0. Your inability to see/acknowledge this fact is why you’re being called egocentric.

I am in no way being egocentric. Never anywhere did I say there was no enemy impact (I even aknowledge that it’s annoying to do), I said that it will not take nearly as long as doing your full pve map and any way you look at it, this is a fact unless you’re doing something awfully wrong.

So…are you talking (1) total time spent on the map or (2) total number of hours or days passed between beginning and end?

While (1) may indeed be shorter, even significantly, (2) is nowhere near as trivial. Your refusal/failure/deception when it comes to differentiating (even identifying/acknowledging) the two cases is why you’ve been called and will continue to be called egocentric. The only alternative would be that you were simply that dense or close-minded.

Azrael.4960:

Commanded another Tequatl run last night and made certain to inform people that if they die they should go to the nearby Quaggan waypoint and run back. Most players who do Teq now understand the need for it, especially those in the frontal zergs. I think once players have gotten the swing of things that in world boss events like these, there just isn’t the time or opportunity for players to be ressed from dead. Eventually, players that just lie there waiting to be ressed while everyone is fighting end up just feeling embarrassed that they died and everyone else is still up and fighting. Better to just remove your pip from the map so that people aren’t just staring at you.

And i think that’s the psychology of it. When a number of players are dead, people don’t feel so bad about being just another of the dead but if you’re the only one lying there, your pip is the only one visible on the minimap and even though your name isn’t visible, the thought of all those other players just looking at your pip just lying there will make people move.

Perhaps, that’s the way to do it. Play on people’s psychology. When you go down, you only see your own pip on the mini map and none of the other dead. If players are fooled into thinking they’re the only one lying there, they may be more inclined to WP.

It’s an interesting perspective. If it’s an issue of anonymity and embarrassment, then calling out the names of people’s corpses on the ground for a while may spur them to action, and announcing one’s intention to do this may preemptively push people to WP right away.

inb4 anyone tells me this is reportable and bannable. Nobody would be stating anything other than the fact that someone is dead and has not waypointed. The accused have both the ability to defend themselves (they are on the map) and the ability to prevent getting called out in the first place.

Pve map completion is many times longer than wvw map completion any way you look at it

No. It’s only many times longer when you decide the impact of enemy players is 0. Your inability to see/acknowledge this fact is why you’re being called egocentric.

Vincent.7452:

This isn’t being selfish, this is telling you that this system would be flawed. If you put 2 different systems in place that gives the same reward while one of them is 1/10 as long, there’s obviously something flawed there. World completion is one of the very few requirements that still takes some time and efforts to build a legendary and doesn’t need to be dumbed down to be 10 times easier.

Yes it is. You cherrypicked the very best time for your server just to be able to get a time that was 1/10 as long.

I challenge you and two others from the other two servers in your WvW matchup to all finish a WvW completion by the end of your current matchup (roughly the amount of time it would take to do the PvE parts).

For most people, on most servers, on most times, it wouldn’t even be 1x easier, much less 10. Do I really need to add some “potential vs reality” meme/joke to make it stick?

Regards,
A player with 4 legendary weapons and 4 more Gifts of Exploration

PS: how would you feel about a PvP rank 30-40 requirement to buy Icy Runestones? PvP is very clearly absent in the legendary weapon acquisition, and I take it you would be one of the first to jump on board as you feel it is “too easy”?

You could even maintain that the “tryhard star” still requires completion of both WvW and PvE so there’s still some reason/incentive to do both.

Vincent.7452:

^Then almost nobody would bother getting 100% map completion in pve to make a legendary weapon because it would take 10 times longer than wvw to complete. We’re talking about 4 maps vs 30+ maps.

Even though you can’t access everything right away in wvw, if you’re patient and/or follow a good commander around you can usually get inside every towers and keeps pretty fast. On my second 100% map completion I completed all 4 wvw map within 4 hours (granted my server was doing amazing and we had control over most of the maps).

So WvW completion can’t be rewarding because you did it quickly? And PvE completion can’t be deemphasized because it was long for you? Nice egocentric logic here. I don’t see anything in your argument that amounts to more than a bitter desire to make everyone go through the same masochistic experience you had.

Consider that you’re asking for qualities (patience, persistence) in WvW that many of the PvErs in this thread do not have when it comes to PvP content and you’ll see why they would be okay with this sort of split. Very many here would much rather go through 60+ PvE maps (2 figts in the hypothetical system) over even 1 WvW map.

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

It’s still not the same. A WvW player going to PvE doesn’t cause problems for the server and players waiting in the qeue.

This is not just about a player not wanting to do certain content, this is about a player unintentionally causing problems for others because of a design flaw.

I think WvW players are more annoyed about the entitlement and whining of some map completionists than they are about losing 1-2 spots to the queue.

And let’s be honest. Most PvErs complaining about WvW map completion are not doing so because they are clogging up the queue by 1 slot. They are whining because they have to do something they don’t enjoy to get closer to a shiny item.

WvWers asking for PvE open world completion to be removed are doing the same thing in asking to remove something they don’t enjoy that gets in the way of their own shiny item.

Map completion gives 2 Gifts of Exploration anyways. Why not just make it one for open world exploration and one for WvW exploration? While WvW is indeed much smaller than the open world, it presents a different challenge in the way of exploration.

Olvendred.3027:

different scenarios

Maybe if you read the actual posts instead of going off on your adorable little narrative you’d have realized that though people’s perspectives were different, there was pretty general implicit agreement on a single scenario (WvW map completion on a map with a queue)

JustTrogdor.7892:

Dave.2536:

-SNIP-

Your sig has a typo in it. I just thought I would let you know since it obviously has to do with the topic at hand and what you have been posting. See, helpful is good.

I’m off to bed now. It’s been fun. Have a good night all.

fixing, ty

People can be dead weights in WvW all they want. They just shouldn’t feel entitled to assistance they haven’t earned, nor expect to be shielded from being told/reminded that they are dead weight.

If all this hurts their feelings too much, perhaps they should be the ones petitioning ANet harder, rather than trying to guilt trip and create forum drama.

I’ve participated in my fair share of forum posts seconding motions to either remove WvW map from the the journey of legendary crafting (or alternatively adding a PvP requirement as part of the process). Perhaps there should be more initiative from the people who actually stand to gain from this (no, losing 1-2 spots to PvErs doesn’t hurt much when it’s likely the other servers probably have similar issues).

The rest of us are generally unaffected by the presence of these people, and it is only because we are unaffected by their presence and continue to ignore them that they come on the forums to complain.

laokoko.7403:

and another point i’m trying to make is range dps actually isn’t that bad. Base on what people research, if I’m not mistaken, sceptor is the meta weapon for boss with large hit box. Even if you can’t do that with medium/small sized opponent, coupled in with +20% dmg when aegis traits, it’s actually not so bad.

While traited scepter vs large non-moving targets is strong, scepter vs small moving target like Archdiviner or Mossman is terribad.

Additionally a large portion of melee DPS comes from shared buffs as everyone is relatively close to each other. A guardian ranging has little to none of his own offensive buffs and gets very few from the rest of the party.

Vayne.8563:

Dave.2536:

Vayne.8563:

What you really need to do is join a helpful guild and go in together, instead of trying to solo everything. (coughs).

But Vayne, I’m an entitled casual who supports ANet through the gem store so these hardcore players with no real life anyways should be dropping everything to carry me through stuff!

I’m quite happy to carry people through stuff. What else do I have to do? lol

Apparently you need to cap the bottom two towers and cap them now! Forget the 70+ enemy force attacking your T3 garrison with only 400 supply left, take that stupid tower!

You can always take the garrison back after we get the tower, while I go to the next map and start making demands to the commander there.

Vayne.8563:

What you really need to do is join a helpful guild and go in together, instead of trying to solo everything. (coughs).

But Vayne, I’m an entitled casual who supports ANet through the gem store so these hardcore players with no real life anyways should be dropping everything to carry me through stuff!

JustTrogdor.7892:

Dave.2536:

JustTrogdor.7892:

Dave.2536:

JustTrogdor.7892:

root.9415:

If you are doing map completion in wvw while the maps have queues, you will rightfully be told to GTFO.

Other than that I see no problem with people doing map completion, have fun!

Players doing map completion in WvW, even during queues, have just as much right to be there as anyone else since it is indeed required for map completion. If you don’t like that perhaps you should lobby for removal of WvW from the map completion requirement.

You have the right to do map completion in WvW. You do not have a right to be shielded from being (correctly) told that you are a liability for the server.

Haha okay. You know it is funny. I’ve seen many threads over the years of people complaining about having to do WvW for map completion. One of the most common suggestions aside from waiting for a map to flip is to ask for help in WvW. I guess those suggestions were wrong.

If you think telling people to get lost or how ever else you want to phrase it is helpful for the community then go for it. There is one way to keep people from coming back to maybe benefit their server later in WvW, and that is to insult them and tell them to go away.

Yes, when the map is queued and people are doing useless things they’re going to be asked to be useful or go away. Feelings may be hurt. Sorry not sorry.

Perhaps all those “ask the commander to help you cap something” replies need to be appended with “please don’t make selfish individual requests when the map is queued and there are more important things”.

Maybe then we will have fewer black and white straw man arguments as well.

Who says everyone trying to do map completion is useless? Instead of saying things like, “GTFO” as root so eloquently stated it, maybe invite them along with your blob. Maybe that person doing map completion kills an enemy scout or two along the way if they are roaming solo. Maybe tell them if they see any enemy movements to let the map know. Or you know you could just tell them they are worthless and get nothing out of it at all as they most likely ignore you and go on about their business.

In my opinion, WvW was added to map completion to encourage people to try it. If you are just going to tell people they are a liability, then they are most likely not going to try to help your server win at that time and probably not any time in the near future.

But, if you insist, go about it and belittle people in WvW. I’m sure it does great things for your server’s WvW community.

The people throwing a tantrum in /m because the commander won’t help them on a queued map are worse than useless: they’re detrimental to the server with their drama and taking the attention and focus away from the commander.

It’s comparable to, say, not waypointing when fully dead at a big event and getting others killed as they foolishly try to res.

I honestly don’t think those kinds of people will be missed by the WvW community, but you can continue to try to white knight them in the best made-up narrative you can imagine.

PS: I am nowhere near guilty of any of those things I was defending. I was simply defending others’ rights to do them. Offense is taken, not given, and not every case of hurt feelings will result in the “timeout” that you were threatening people with earlier.

Bloodstealer.5978:

Clueless response is.. just clueless.

Thank you for summarizing your own response so well.

Nobody can make you do something but they are certainly free to ask you to do something else, or let you know that you are dead (or negative) weight.

JustTrogdor.7892:

Dave.2536:

JustTrogdor.7892:

root.9415:

If you are doing map completion in wvw while the maps have queues, you will rightfully be told to GTFO.

Other than that I see no problem with people doing map completion, have fun!

Players doing map completion in WvW, even during queues, have just as much right to be there as anyone else since it is indeed required for map completion. If you don’t like that perhaps you should lobby for removal of WvW from the map completion requirement.

You have the right to do map completion in WvW. You do not have a right to be shielded from being (correctly) told that you are a liability for the server.

Haha okay. You know it is funny. I’ve seen many threads over the years of people complaining about having to do WvW for map completion. One of the most common suggestions aside from waiting for a map to flip is to ask for help in WvW. I guess those suggestions were wrong.

If you think telling people to get lost or how ever else you want to phrase it is helpful for the community then go for it. There is one way to keep people from coming back to maybe benefit their server later in WvW, and that is to insult them and tell them to go away.

Yes, when the map is queued and people are doing useless things they’re going to be asked to be useful or go away. Feelings may be hurt. Sorry not sorry.

Perhaps all those “ask the commander to help you cap something” replies need to be appended with “please don’t make selfish individual requests when the map is queued and there are more important things”.

Maybe then we will have fewer black and white straw man arguments as well.

JustTrogdor.7892:

root.9415:

If you are doing map completion in wvw while the maps have queues, you will rightfully be told to GTFO.

Other than that I see no problem with people doing map completion, have fun!

Players doing map completion in WvW, even during queues, have just as much right to be there as anyone else since it is indeed required for map completion. If you don’t like that perhaps you should lobby for removal of WvW from the map completion requirement.

You have the right to do map completion in WvW. You do not have a right to be shielded from being (correctly) told that you are a liability for the server.

For once someone from ANet has come out to speak against leeching/dead weight/counterproductive activity and people still find a way to get salty about it.

You guys are too spoiled by your loot pinatas and easy open world content.

Ravion Hawk.4736:

Gaile Gray.6029:

Azrael.4960:

I just make it a point to declare that during Tequatl, Silverwastes, etc. People should not be ressing the fulling dead and that the dead should WP and get back.

And that makes infinite sense to me.

Did you seriously just bless this?

You guys at ANet designed this game to be a team effort and took away dedicated Healers/Revivers and gave us ALL the ability to res each other to encourage Team Work.

Now you just threw everyone under the bus since now the “WP if you’re Dead/Don’t res the Dead” group can now say “ANet says so.”

I can not believe you did that.

“Team Work” = lying dead on the ground providing negative contribution as others stop DPSing to try to res under the same fire that killed you

lol

lolol

LOLOLOL

Sorry, but Gaile and ANet do not need to endorse every possible magnitude of role play fantasy that players may have.

Where is this “risk” everyone is talking about? If people simply waypointed on death like 90% of normal contributing people already do, then there isn’t anything to miss out on.

The only people we want to “push” to be more useful are the dead weights who are not contributing at all. I’m not sure how the incentive of free waypointing for (only) the first 30 seconds after death at an event would encourage more passive, defensive, and selfish play than we have right now.

I don’t think there’s a “social” issue with ignoring full dead. The main social issue I see is the full dead expecting (even feeling entitled to) others to take the counterproductive measure of trying to res in the face of whatever killed them in the first place, rather than porting and rushing back to help contribute again as soon as possible.

I think people should have an incentive to waypoint sooner rather than later. As I said in my last post, I would fully support waiving the cost for the nearest WP for up to 30 seconds from death when an event is nearby.

People who sit on their lazy entitled corpses for longer than that can then be seen as the leeching dead weights they truly are.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

It irks me, slightly, because I often enough die due to bad luck (Silverwastes KD/KB/AoE spam during fort defenses) or because I try to get someone sitting in one of Teq’s poison puddles up before they die, and I wind up down instead. Punishing me for that feels . . . wrong.

It’s not punishment if you get up and WP like most people should be doing when they die. If you choose to stay there and not contribute, you should be credited and rewarded accordingly. You may even be providing negative contribution with 1.) time before the game to realize you’re worthless and dead weight at the moment (before it downscales things back accordingly), and 2.) damage and support lost from other players kitten you instead of actually contributing.

If they have to make the nearest waypoint free for the first 30 seconds of death when there’s an event near your corpse, I have no problem with that. While I suspect waypoint costs are the least of most players’ concerns, it would be one less excuse they could try to use.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Lazaar.9123:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

So WHY does it matter if they lay there dead?

Because full dead bodies get in the way of ressing people that are only downed.

. . . given how often I don’t get picked up when downed, I don’t think that’s as big an issue as you claim. I’ve been left to die (hard death) more often than picked up.

And most of the times someone picks me up has been in WvW, not in PvE. In PvE, it’s been my experience if you go down people generally seem to think you somehow deserved it and won’t help.

The salt is strong in this one.

naiasonod.9265:

This idea is utter rubbish and I’m not sure you should be allowed to play with others with a viciously punitive attitude like that.

AFK leechers (perhaps you are one of them given your unnecessarily strong reaction) and the current tagging system that emphasizes quantity over quality are the reason this game can’t get new content that isn’t a massive loot pinata.

Middzz.1490:

Dave.2536:

A player having zerker gear makes him more likely to know how to do things like dodge, stack might, execute a proper rotation, bring utilities to support the party, and not put troll light fields over the ele’s fire fields. A player not having zerker gear makes it less likely he knows (or cares) about that list of things.

.

A very very erronous assumption from my observation….the majority of zerker i find believe in the myth of all you need and are far from adequate.

I said more likely, not 100% or even 50% or 75%. Even 20% is more likely than 0% or 1%.

Wearing glass gear is not all that’s needed to realize one’s potential, but not wearing it is guaranteed to lower that potential. Yes, I realize the difference between potential and reality, and players with large discrepancies between the two can expect to get kicked as well.

Cuddy.6247:

maddoctor.2738:

Then why do they allow descriptions on the LFG posts? They could’ve done it like how sPVP works, click a button and the game puts you in a random group.

Because unlike sPvP dungeons have three paths (in rare cases more), a story, etc. Clarifying what you’re doing is important – how you do it, not so much. Your post is just another example of the laziness I was describing.

No, this is you playing semantics. It would not even be unheard of to have a system where you specify what you want to run and then get put into a random group.

MrWubzy.3587:

Isn’t this game more about player skill than gear, though? If I can fight a boss using Knight’s gear just as easily as a guy running Zerker, doesn’t that say a lot about skill instead of gear? Granted stats do matter in the case of this game, but at its core it’s more about how well you do than what you’re wearing.

A player having zerker gear makes him more likely to know how to do things like dodge, stack might, execute a proper rotation, bring utilities to support the party, and not put troll light fields over the ele’s fire fields. A player not having zerker gear makes it less likely he knows (or cares) about that list of things.

When we ask for specific gear we are hoping to increase our chances of finding someone who knows how to do all of those things. It’s not a perfect filter, but most of us will honestly not give a crap about exceptions getting left out unless we have a friend or guild connection to those exceptions.

naiasonod.9265:

Dave.2536:

You forgot the most important stat: weapon strength. That gives you the remaining half of the 10-12%.

Actually, its trinkets that have the most dramatic effects. Edit: stat-wise, I should specify. Trinkets have the most dramatic stat-based effect. Armor’s is comparatively insignificant on its own (before infusions get factored for on either end).

I’ll make an example out of greatswords for brevity’s sake.

Exotic greatsword
Weapon Strength: 995-1100
Primary: 179
Secondary: 128
Secondary: 128

Ascended greatsword
Weapon Strength: 1045-1155
Primary: 188
Secondary: 134
Secondary: 134

Stat-wise, the differences are present but fairly negligible on their own. The difference in Weapon Strength must be assessed by contrasting their integer values via this equation —

Damage done = (Weapon strength) * Power * (skill-specific coefficient) / (target’s Armor)

Now, just eyeballing that equation, I can tell you that you might very well be right, since the multipliers of weapon strength and power would are both increased in Ascended.

Someone with the time to dig up skill coefficients want to math out a contrast? I’d love to, but I’m typing from my phone at work.

Weapon strength has degree 1 in that equation and everything is multiplicative, so all you need to do is take direct ratios. (To see why, assume everything else in the equation is the exact same, and the only variable is weapon strength. Now the direct linear proportion should be clear.)

Another side note—we can do these same ratios for power, but not precision or ferocity (although unlike weapon strength, they can change during combat which is why I had to cite a lower and upper bound in my earlier post)

1100/1047.5 is approximately 1.05. Same for 1000/952.5. For those ratios I just took the average weapon strength for each range, i.e., 0.5*(1045+1155) = 1100.

azizul.8469:

ascended weapon is easy to craft. you can simply buy the mats and they are not that expensive. the only account bound craftable item is the vision crystal.

as for ascended trinkets, they can be bought using laurels and commendations, or even the pristine fractal relics.

when people complain about ascended, usually they complain about the difficulty of getting the ascended armor which requires a lot of materials for a whole set. so the argument has always involve armor, not so much about other items like weapon/trinkets. hence the comparison.

*this is a reply to Dave, forgot to quote.

I’m not sure why I’m being quoted on this. I have 7 sets of ascended armor, about 40 ascended weapons, and ascended trinkets on all 8classes. I do see close to as many complaints about weapons as I do armor, though, seeing how much more expensive weapon crafting disciplines are to level.

To address your point anyways, I think the challenge for most people is actually leveling weapon crafting to 500, and typically getting even the common weapons requires two weapon disciplines to 500. That and many of them don’t know about gw2crafts.net, or find it too initially confusing to take a closer look.

When you’re making a ton of ascended weapons for a ton of classes you do see it as 30-40 gold per weapon. But if, say, you only play a ranger, paying 200-300 gold to level huntsman and weaponsmithing just to make a greatsword, sword, and longbow, then they no longer look like mere 30-40 gold expenditures. Even that recipe cost begins to look significant.

naiasonod.9265:

petespri.6548:

I heard back when ascended first came out that the difference in stats was between 11 and 12% more. Some guy did the calculations.

Someone on this thread said less than 5%.

Anyone care to show me the math? 10%+ is a lot in my book if it is true.

Exotic heavy armor

Defense: 1211
primary stat: 315
secondary: 224
secondary: 224

Ascended heavy armor

Defense: 1271
primary stat: 329
secondary: 235
secondary: 235

Total differentials between Exotic and Ascended (heavy armor sample)
Defense differential: 4.7%
Primary differential: 4.25%
Secondary differential: 4.3%

—It is my belief, based upon these differentials as well as my own personal experience utilizing both ascended and exotic gear, that the differentials do not directly translate as equivalences to damage output/intake.

For example, the 4.7% numerical differential between Exo and Ascended defense rating will almost certainly not equate into a 4.7% difference in damage intake – that’s not how the Defense stat works.

Similarly, a 4.25% differential between 224 Power and 235 Power on an Exo vs Ascended set of Power-primary gear will absolutely not translate into a 4.25% damage output difference. It will translate into a net difference of 14 points of Power.

14 points of Power at level 80 is quite small.

Similarly, an 11 point differential between Exotic and Ascended secondary stats will not yield a 4.3% difference in the output or intake of anything either.

Note: This is strictly looking at Exo vs Ascended armor. When factoring additionally for full Exo vs Ascended trinkets, the stat differences in sum do not rise dramatically.

I can lay the numbers out for that too if’n you like.

You forgot the most important stat: weapon strength. That gives you the remaining half of the 10-12%.

pdavis.8031:

While you can include jewelry, in the context of crafting ascended you can only include weapons and armor, as jewelry is not craftable.

Again, context seemed to have shifted the situation to comparing the gear tiers overall. I would also personally advocate just weapon and trinkets (not armor) to anyone not interested in high level fractals (where the AR slots matter) or WvW (where the armor rating matters).

I understood the semantics, but posted my response in spite of it because my response is ultimately not to you or the guy before, but to the others who may read this thread and mistakenly pull the wrong context out of it.

PS: ascended trinkets may be a bigger grind to some people than the weapon or even armor. Backpieces cost more than a weapon or armor piece. Some people can’t stand joining a guild for missions. Altoholics and people with multiple setups get laurel capped. Not everyone does fractals.

pdavis.8031:

Dave.2536:

Lishtenbird.2814:

Ascended is a long term goal with a less than 5% stat increase.

Can we stop with the misinformation? The ascended weapon alone gives more than 5% dps.

Full ascended is about 9-12% stronger than full exotic. Sure it’s about 5% more stats, but weapon strength >>>>>>> stats.

PS: I don’t mean to single you out individually, but this misinformation is not helpful regardless of good/bad motive.

It’s not misinformation. Ascended equipment offers a 5% STAT increase. However, it is also true that with such a stat increase, there is also a small amount of a DPS increase.

For example: Exotic Beserker armor/(single handed) weapons provide 405 power, 288 precision, and 288 Ferocity.

Full Ascended is: 423 power, 302 precision, and 302 ferocity.

A difference of: 18 power, 14 precision, and 14 Ferocity.

An exotic weapon has a damage of 905-1000, and ascended has 950-1050.

So over all, its +45-50 damage, and 18 power, 14 precision, and 14 ferocity. Which is not a 9-12% increase in DPS. Unless you have the calculations on how much damage is increase by each point of power, how much crit chance in improved by each point of precision, and how much crit damage is increase per point of ferocity.

Again, it’s not misinformation.

Exotic weapon strength 952.5 average
Ascended weapon strength 1000 average

From weapon strength alone, +5.0% (which alone refutes the claim of “less than 5%”)

Full ascended zerker (armor/weapon/trinkets) is around +90 power/50 ferocity/50 precision over full exotic. Power is easy to calculate (~2400 power on full exotic with 6 in the power trait line, 2490 with full ascended ==> +3.75%).

+50 precision and ferocity would be a gain of at least 2% on the lower bound.

Multiplying all these things together...1.05 × 1.0375 × 1.02 = 1.11%

So 11% gives us a good baseline. Lower with more buffs (primarily power), and higher if our estimate of 2% should be significantly higher.

I’m also not here to argue semantics. The context of “stat” clearly was referencing performance, or overall dps, and even if not intended that way, would be perceived that way.

“Technically correct” no longer works for me when trying to spread misinformation.

PS: please don’t cite stat figures on exotic vs ascended without including jewelry, because the bulk of the stat points are there. For ascended weapons the bulk of the improvement is weapon strength, and for armor it is in armor rating.

Lishtenbird.2814:

Ascended is a long term goal with a less than 5% stat increase.

Can we stop with the misinformation? The ascended weapon alone gives more than 5% dps.

Full ascended is about 9-12% stronger than full exotic. Sure it’s about 5% more stats, but weapon strength >>>>>>> stats.

PS: I don’t mean to single you out individually, but this misinformation is not helpful regardless of good/bad motive.

Windsagio.1340:

maha/colsey. To quote him,

But the act itself – you as party leader kicking someone who doesn’t comply with your group’s wishes is perfectly acceptable.
To reiterate – kicking someone for not meeting your requirement is absolutely fine, waiting until the end of the instance to kick them is wrong. This is precisely what I am arguing about, I can understand people being up in arms about someone waiting until the end of the instance to kick you, but the fact that the OP flagrantly disregarded the request of the party leader is what makes it hard for me to feel sympathy for them.

The other guys are just buddying up to their buddy, he’s explicitly saying that the “Party Leader” (obsolete term) ‘s wishes are paramount and he is justified in kicking people that don’t meet his wishes.

This is a selfish and egotistical way of acting, and abuses on this kind of attitude are part of the reason that they retired the concept of ‘dungeon owners’.

I don’t see how colesy took OP’s account as gospel at all. He simply addressed the parts that were posted (party “leader” asked us to not watch cutscenes, we did not comply, we were kicked at the end).

The very fact that he sought to clarify his position with others, and examine the circumstance of being kicked right away or at the end seems to indicate he is posting about the general issue rather than the specific.

If you want to argue that kicking for this kind of thing is 100% always indefensible and that there is no valid application of majority rules or seniority in the party, you will be more or less fighting the battle as a significant minority. Not saying that your position is wrong, but that there was near unanimous approval (at least acceptance) of colesy’s position after he clarified it.

Is it elitist? Probably. Is it indefensible? Probably not, because not everyone has the same moral framework, or even agrees to prioritize morality over everything else in an online video game.

Windsagio.1340:

Yes there could be more sides to the story. Whatsisname is taking the OP’s story as Gospel and still saying the kick was totally defensible

Sorry, but who’s doing this again?

Just about everyone in this thread on the “other side” either: 1.) stopped short of assigning blame, merely suggesting “make your own group and specify watching cutscenes”, or 2.) said kicking was okay, but doing so at the last boss was extremely uncalled for.

The only people justifying the kick either question OP’s account that nothing else was exchanged, or his/her account that the kick happened at the last (rather than next) boss.

“The whole truth” and “nothing but the truth” are not always the same thing.

I’m not sure I see anyone in this thread fervently defending kicking at the end. The only “contrary” opinion I’m seeing is that the kicking itself may not be unjustified.

And in defense of the “norm” that Dusk brought up, I’d say communication and being on the same page as the rest of your party should not be a wildly foreign concept to anyone, new or otherwise.

Without the other side of the story (and I highly suspect OP either met the absolute worst members of this community or OP is omitting some key details out of shame) I don’t see how taking either side of this issue is indefensible. Those who say it is are just making a kneejerk emotional appeal.

I don’t think we all agree it’s even “public humiliation”.

John Smith simply saying “we investigated ourselves and found no evidence of wrongdoing” does not appease everyone (just ask the cops), particularly the ones who have already bought into OP’s biased anecdote, or ones with conspiracy tinfoil hat theories about account luck and whatnot.

Giving something with actual impact (“I even went back to review OP’s personal claim, here’s what really happened”) greatly increases the credibility of the rest of John’s words. It’s why he has so much credibility on these forums despite what some may call unprofessional.

It serves a role of deterring future lies, or to remind people to at least double check their anecdotes before serving them up for everyone.

With some of these red posts, you’re going to get the whole package of all or nothing. I’ll take the “all” over the “nothing” any day, and even OP (in the case of a misunderstanding/human error) seems to appreciate being told everything is still okay.

Further, this discussion brought up a second point that John addressed when “exposing” OP: the extremely improbable RNG (on the magnitude of winning the lottery every day for about a month) that OP claimed.

While “things are working normally” was welcome news to all, “1.92 dust/ecto on 145 ecto” also served to end the pointless discussion about astronomical RNG by people who mostly did not realize how astronomical it was.

250 salvaged, 434 dust (1.73 average)

Slightly lower (but in line with expectations) than 1.844 average I’ve recorded the past 2-3 months (~18k ectos salvaged)

Even though Silverwastes is a more recent map than Dry Top, I feel like Dry Top’s decline is also due largely in part to a similar but more serious flaw in its design: people who contribute the most (in the first 40 minutes) are given complete trash rewards to the ones who simply show up at :40 when the sandstorm arrives.

What you get for the first 40 minutes is such a slap in the face that T4 maps are somewhat uncommon and T5/T6 virtually non-existent.

Let’s also not forget that both maps reward and incentivize tagging events and moving on rather than actually staying and contributing to a single individual event.

Ayrilana.1396:

I’m not going to take part in this discussion with you any further as you continue to argue over the meaning of my posts and make false accusations of what I was stating rather that argue against what my arguments were. Either you are unable to argue against what I stated or you’re trying to troll me. In any case, I’m done. This thread won’t be brought any further off topic on my account beyond this post.

Good. Farewell. Please go elsewhere with your backtracking.

Aidan Savage.2078:

Frankly who cares? I certainly dont. Farming the crests is kitten-easy. Two nights of farming maps from foothold to vinewrath (couple hours each), and I’ve got 2k crests, even after spending close to 500 on keys and shovels. Imagine if someone decided to spend the entire day farming? You dont need to be able to trade in the boxes when it’s easy to get them. And to be honest, the only people who’d want that ability is if they cant play long enough to get other pieces, and can only spend 20-30 minutes chest hunting.

Tell me more about crest farming for coat boxes. Now if ANet confirmed that they would put the coat boxes at the vendor in two weeks for 1000 crests (when they hopefully introduce extractors for eyes and kidneys), then I personally will have no more criticisms.

Ayrilana.1396:

Instead you argued that I had empty arguments based on the usage of “people” rather than arguing against my arguments.

Nope, try again. Your argument basically amounted to “OP doesn’t have the right to criticize these new changes for LS rewards, because some people asked for some things that were somewhat implemented.”

Your “argument” fails for one of the below reasons:

• Your use of “people” somehow includes OP, which would be an overreach because not everyone asked for the things you accused “people” of asking for.
• Your use of “people” did not cover any significant (or clearly established) group of people and has no connection to OP himself, and the rest of your argument against these “people” is a straw man with no relation to this thread.

Sariel V.7024:

eyeroll

I’ve a grand idea. Take your strawmans and other Debate Club crap back to high school. Picking at the minutiae of someone’s argument and calling the whole a fallacy does not invalidate it. All it does is muddy the thread.

Muddies it even more than the fallacies (or ambiguities) themselves and “contributions” like yours?

My sides…

Ayrilana.1396:

It’s pretty clear what I was saying.

Yes. “People” is clear. Got it. (lol)

Perhaps you should actually read my posts again rather than find words that are ambiguous enough that you can manipulate what their meanings are to further support whatever it is that you’re arguing.

I tried. I even tried to give you credit for having a mistaken argument rather than an empty one. It was you who corrected me.

On a serious note, perhaps you should be more clear? Without categorization and/or an everyone context to “people asked for xyz”, the statement carries zero value as a point or a counterpoint because it is too vague.

There’s no backtracking here. Just trying to clarify the attempt of you manipulating and twisting what I was saying.

You should follow your own advice about using non-ambiguous words in future posts.

Ayrilana.1396:

Here’s your problem:

People != Everyone

When I said people, I was not referring to everyone. You’re the one that applied “everyone” to my arguments so that you could easily argue against them.

So in other words, your argument is that you have no argument since it is (conveniently?) unclear what “people” you were talking about?

Be careful about how far you backtrack.

You seem to think everyone wanted the same thing, which couldn’t be further from the truth.

• None of the rewards can be sold on the TP.
• All of the rewards, with the exception of those from the current LS, can be bought with tokens allowing players to see a form of progress.

No. People wanted skins outside of the gemstore. Other than that, what they wanted varied wildly.

Some people wanted reduced, minimal, or zero RNG in items.
Some people wanted rewards exclusive to completing content.
Some people wanted (at least did not mind) a token system.
Other people may have wanted something completely different.

You’ve fallen short not only by mis-categorizing players’ wishes, but just by attempting to categorize in the first place.

It’s easy to prove something right when that something is a straw man. Now please try to do it with reality.

EDIT: let me clarify that I am very happy that these LS skins were obtainable outside the gemstore. I was very happy to see some challenge behind the Luminescent skins (completing the LS achievements) and also substantial rewards for finishing the achievements and collections (the ascended armor box and sinister accessories).

That said, some episodes felt much grindier than others, and I do not think this new system, as refreshing as it was, is beyond criticism and improvement.

Ayrilana.1396:

except

Why does this get to be a minor afterthought?

People did not get “exactly the type of system, including the consequences, that people have been saying that they wanted.”

Leave it to the people who think CoF1 and AC are endgame content. Apparently what works in PuG AC groups applies to all the other stuff that doesn’t blow up in seconds.

Gilosean.3805:

Facepunch.5710:

Am I the only one besides OP that thinks this is an awesome idea. Talk about living world and making changes that resonate with the players…

Yeah, you are.

I think it’s a great idea, too, so you seem to be wrong.

I think it would also be a great idea if some people in this thread stopped going all OMGTRIGGERMOMENT and perceiving offense with things that were either said in jest or to provoke these frantic reactions we see so many of.

In other words, stop giving people power if you don’t want them to be powerful.