There is no “bad” class in GW2.
Some are just distinctly better in some aspects of the game than others. The issue facing rangers is that their greatest strengths are considered insignificant or simply just not particularly important aspects of the game, especially at 80, and this is especially applicable to players desiring a class featuring ranged combat. While any player can become skillful and perform extremely well with any class in the game through getting better, it is often the case that the ranger suffers from distinct setbacks due to various factors ranging from below-average trait synergy and dependency on fairly unresponsive AI companions. A given rangers’ strength often is the culmination of his build moreso than his actual skill level; this is especially more apparent as one compares something like berserker longbow versus condi spirit bunker shortbow.
The class is almost undeniably the best when it comes down to open-world PvE, and condi spirit bunker is unbelievably strong for point defense in sPvP, however beyond these two situations, it falters out, especially in regards to larger-scale fights in WvW and higher-level fractals. The class is never bad, and it can be extremely good. The main issue it faces is that it’s quite often replaceable.
Hmm middle tier dps? Thieves do NOT produce more dps than warriors, elementalists without fgs neither. And there are banners, fgj, and a lot of damage increase traits with warrior. QQ
Wut.
Have you ever played S/P thief? It deals like three times the DPS of a full-offense GS war in PvE.
I disagree.
I think the differentiation between WvW and sPvP is perfect as it currently is. The normalized system in sPvP goes well with the focus in small team fights with emphasis on build variation (and synergy) between players, players’ skill, as well as the non-combat aspect of sPvP.
However, WvW should be as holistic as it can be – given that focus is on large scale battles and sieges, what differentiates one “army” from the other is the total sum of its prowess, that means taking into consideration all things: strategy, good commanding, numbers, morale of players, mentality of players AND ALSO differences in quality of equipment, buffs (consumables) etc.
Ideally, WvW is an aspect of the game where one can say “our server beats your server because, hey look, everyone in our world gives their time and effort to polish our equipment, prepare our food before our fights, calling in more people to participate, coordinating our attacks based on our consolidated power, etc”.
Because really in a zerg fight (or a play-pretend large battle), how much difference do build variety and player’s skill make? It should be the sum of these small things that make the difference.
While it’s fair to disagree, and WvW is a coordinated effort, one must consider the important effects of Havoc Squads and small elite roaming group necessary for contesting, capturing, and holding smaller objectives and claiming critical areas at the right times rather than just the zerg. A lot of WvW-based players left GW2 altogether due to the current emphasis on the zerg. It creates a fairly unhealthy environment and does exactly what you mentioned; it reduces the sense of significance of the individual.
What define T1 servers and T1 WvW guilds is exactly the opposite of what you’re claiming, too. Organization among a group of players – while strictly larger than that of sPvP – is absolutely critical, and often times one’s status of actually being allowed into a guild or even allowed to remain a member of a guild rides solely on the individual’s capability to perform under stress and under a multitude of situations, both functioning alone and when included in smaller group dynamics. I’ve personally seen quite a few players dumped from guilds for not exclusively jump-dodging due to the very slight increase in evasion frames it gives, being kicked for dying while in a zerg while barred from TS to demonstrate the capacity of skilled individual play, and the likes. These groups often run no commander tags and are often extremely exclusive as well. If you want to run with the best, you need to be the best, and I think a lot of people neglect to consider just how impactful these groups are. WvW has various elements of strategy on this level, and a demand for small high-impact skillgroups to come out ahead in ppt over another server. Zergs aren’t so much dominant due to their inherent effectiveness, but because of how effective and reliable they are, and how little coordination it takes to make one capture land.
And that’s precisely it. A zerg is but a summation of its parts. If you have a zerg of inadequate players – disorganized with little PvP knowledge and mislead – they rightfully should lose to a heavily-skilled group consisting of but a few. Is it necessary to halt a group of 40 with another group of 40, taking the focus off of a critical capture on another server’s land just to defend a tower from a different invading force? It shouldn’t be, and in many cases, it isn’t.
There are plenty of people out there who can 1v5 – 1v10 – solo keep/SMC capture, and many of these people actually do. Is their food any more effective than their opponents’? Last I checked, it wasn’t. They win these fights because of their capabilities as individuals. If everyone has food, how is it different from a situation in which everyone has none?
It just seems illogical to market part of a game as PvP when it is balanced by PvE standards, which are way off the mark from sPvP.
@Wanderer:
You could interpret it that because you’ve leveled up and subsequently gotten proficient enough in combat to wear it that you have rightfully gained the capacity to be more proficient offensively, and that the stat bonuses are representations of character attribute gains. Conversely, eating a fruit tart and getting stronger makes even less sense, for one could even argue heavier armor on one’s arm if swung at the same speed as before would grant more destructive power to a weapon due to the increased momentum of the heavier arm (and subsequently a sword acting as a lever) from gravity.
(edited by DeceiverX.8361)
Pistol offhand is a lot worse than SA thieves. Blindspam is much more frustrating and difficult to deal with than the regen and condi cleanse.
If people think stealth has no counterplay, please, I invite you to play a thief. Stealth attacks are SO predictable and choreographed. Fighting D/x? Dodge on when they would be next to you based upon their previous position and their active signets, if any. They’ll be hitting you either at the way end of stealth or as soon as they’d get to you. Dodge at the right time based upon distance, spin the camera the other way, and you’ve now either totally mitigated their damage or cut it in half and left them either open to CC or revealed.
For talk about how the game is skill-intensive and how stealth as a mechanic inhibits this, whoever said this really needs to L2P and actually refine their skills both as a thief and against thieves in order to understand how this class plays out and how to counterplay it.
Blindspam is by far more of a culprit in regards to no counterplay, especially since it lasts so long with such an easy application and prevents quick retaliation by the player against the thief. While I’m a strong advocate for thieves, I think blind as a conditon needs some adjustments, and ease of application needs some nerfs.
I’d also like to see some changes to prevent stealth-chaining, and the mega-torment-stacking that P/D thief can get, mostly by making torment in general easier to cleanse by all classes, including thieves.
Stealth spike builds, however, and this is coming from a D/D ultimate-burst-damage thief main, do not need such nerfs, for they simply destroy bad players and people not expecting them, and that’s about all they do and can do.
If they make these changes to warrior while Mesmer still as closing in on 20 bugs between all their abilities. /gamequit
Necros are still on 50+, not counting minion pathing being broken.
Rangers called, they want their entire class mechanic to not suck regarding the above statement.
But really, I don’t see what the big deal is. Yes, Adrenaline is a mechanic which provides a great benefit for not using it all the time every time. But isn’t that arguably a good thing? Using a “burst” skill should be used for… well… BURSTS. It shouldn’t be an excuse to press another button and have another skill to deal damage with while the rest of yours are on (already) short cooldowns. I actually like having the adrenaline skills contest with my other skill damage on my warrior, because it makes me actually need to make good, intelligent decisions on what to do with my resource and when, if at all. Sometimes even that GS adrenaline skill can win a fight. Having another skill to spam on cooldown doesn’t add any more depth to the profession. It’s just another button press in a standard, unchanging, and boring rotation.
I like the customization they offer.
In terms of making content “easy”, the vast majority of the content is already easy, with or without them. If we are going to remove anything that makes it “easier” then are we also going to remove ascended gear, superior runes and sigils? Most of which is not actually needed to complete the content and is instead used to do it more efficiently?
In terms of “balance” with regards to wvw. Well unless you are going to make it like spvp and remove gear disparity altogether, i’m unsure as to the point really. Moreover, if someone has not taken the opportunity to utilize them, well it’s really their fault and no one elses.
In terms of “balance” from a design perspective. I’d rather Anet learned how to balance them instead of removing them altogether.
I agree with Fenrir. The point about WvW is excellent, and I will go further and make the unstated point that these disparities SHOULD exist in WvW. It is what separates WvW from sPvP and makes having both game modes such a great compromise to the pvp community. There are many players who want a pvp environment where they DO benefit from their gear, etc.
A lot of WvW players could honestly care less about food – or what I believe the OP means is consumables (aka food) – in WvW, and many would actually argue that it makes things worse overall and as the OP mentioned, forces ANet into a balance conundrum. WvW players want class balance just as much as sPvP players do. Actually, a lot of WvW players want it even more than sPvP players do, simply because the variety of character builds is so far beyond that of sPvP simply due to the mechanics of sPvP restricting all sorts of forms of play, stat distribution, etc. That said, it’s pretty hard to balance stat sets when you have things like +/- 40% condition duration food being a semi-requirement for all players in WvW, regardless of their build. This alone has led to massive, unresolved disputes regarding condition build potency at certain stages of the game and in various environments.
What I think the better solution is, is that food should simply not be accessible in WvW, just like it is in sPvP, so that the professions can be more adequately balanced in PvP environments as a whole (gear being just a slight form of discrepancy in WvW). Stat foods often just further increase the margin between those with and without the crazy gear/money in WvW, for the guy with full ascended sigiled/runed weapons and armor is going to be the same who is willing to shell out 1.5g every hour they want to PvP. The guy in greens and yellows likely doesn’t have that kind of spare cash to blow.
Now, if they offered regulated-gear form of WvW like sPvP but added a lot more variability to it (fixed weapon/armor tiers and no food, keeping the runes as they are (though strength runes are OP in larger fights), no ferocity/crit damage cap, upscale and traits for 80 regardless of actual level, etc.), I doubt very many people would continue playing WvW at all, and I would exclusively play that mode and never look at the current WvW again.
Didn’t bother reading a lot of the subsequent posts so I’ll be posting regarding the main topic, here.
Longbow penalties should only occur within like 150-200 range. Subsequently, I think these penalties should also be steeper. This makes logical sense as skirmishing at close range with a bow while someone is swinging a sword at you s not exactly easy to do seeing as you need to knock an arrow and actually aim/release with proper technique. Anything beyond that, though, is fair game and shouldn’t be difficult to pull off. Getting penalized below “max” range simply makes no sense realistically nor balance-wise when every other ranged weapon hits fine at 900-1200 range, anyways. It would also allow rangers to trait for closer encounters and support less passive “sniping” by spamming 1 and more active kiting.
>plays easiest class in game
>says 20k burst skills are useless
>confuses entire forum reader basewarrior is clearly not the easiest class in this game.
Rangers are.
i’m not sure if we play the same game.
LOL.
We’re definitely not playing the same game.
Unless you’re referring to killing trash mobs in PvE? That I’ll give to you. Otherwise, you’re way off the mark.
I don’t see how adrenaline is poorly implemented. Getting a free 15% crit chance and 15% damage modifier is pretty nice, which can then be expended into a powerful skill (GS aside), no? Maybe GS needs a change, but killshot is certainly viable. It’s called blowing your opponent’s negation and then bursting them when they have none left. This is a strategy that is employed by many other classes, often necessary to actually kill the warrior.
I’ve played everything to 80 in ascended except engi and necro, and so far I can safely say it’s been the easiest class to roll in both PvP and PvE.
Crossfire is probably one of the best designed skills in the game because you can actively counter-play the condition application through positioning. It’s nowhere near as ridiculous as other condi auto-attack skills like Blood/Rendering/Putrid Curse.
And I thought people whining about backstab was bad (the same thing applies), but now people are complaining about the effectiveness of condi shortbow rangers?…
That said, I will give the OP that rangers are BORING. They play overly-passively and its ranged flavors are far too dependent on their auto-attacks than actually using their skills.
Only difference with backstab is you can’t see your oponent, making proper positioning much harder.
Not really. Stabs are pretty choreographed. You might not be able to physically see your opponent, but you for the most part can tell exactly when it’s coming so you can either dodge, aegis, flip backwards, cc nearby, or whatever it may be to prevent it from happening.
I know, I just think it’s funny how peoples’ opinions change when metas shift, almost as though nobody actually bothers to test stuff out before making claims.
Funny how a few months ago I said in a war/guard thread that guardians can deal more damage than warriors and people hated me out of the thread because OMG HUNDERD BLADES BEST DPS GTFO SCRUB.
Fact of the matter is that in most realistic PvP scenarios, a well-played guardian can out-damage a well-played warrior just because of its higher reliability in its damage.
Yea Lich can one-shot you, and I’ve been victim of that myself. Granted, I play D/D hyper-burst. If you’re playing a D/P codi thief, I also sincerely doubt you were getting one-shotted as you should be floating considerably more toughness and vitality than a thief like myself which runs with no bonus toughness or vitality in the build an only a few pieces of valkyrie gear post-ferocity (down from full valk). It would and should take two or more hits (assuming you faced a berserker bomb necro and the attacks crit) due to condi builds’ inherently higher toughness and health pools.
Ultimately you shouldn’t have engaged that 1v2 without focusing the necro first. And if you lost the 1v1, well, you’ll need to time dodges better or utilize your #3 to get distance, reset the fight, and apply the correct amount of pressure.
That said, a p/d condi thief can have issues fighting a necromancer (depending on the build) due to condition transfers returning those stacks of torment back to the thief. Aside from Shadow Arts builds, there are no ways to reliably deal with torment as a thief. After that first hit, it would be advisable to skip town if you know the necro has that available.
Crossfire is probably one of the best designed skills in the game because you can actively counter-play the condition application through positioning. It’s nowhere near as ridiculous as other condi auto-attack skills like Blood/Rendering/Putrid Curse.
And I thought people whining about backstab was bad (the same thing applies), but now people are complaining about the effectiveness of condi shortbow rangers?…
That said, I will give the OP that rangers are BORING. They play overly-passively and its ranged flavors are far too dependent on their auto-attacks than actually using their skills.
Still support the notion of aspects, which remove the pet as a form of damage (subsequently buffing our own damage output so there is no waiting time), but that aspect choice (taken from gathering pets) is something which can be switched to retain the utility the pet would normally provide.
This solves:
-Pet kiting and the slowness and delays on pet skills/damage.
-WvW structure interference (your pets cannot attack up, or more importantly, DOWN keep walls while attacking/defending against players even if you can), pets getting stuck.
-AoE damage problems/no active mitigation (obvious pet deaths)
-Solo archer theme/roleplaying problems.
-Solo archer/ranged DPS stylistic play.
ANet needs to stop being so stubborn and understand that pets are simply too poorly implemented and too forced upon the ranger class to keep them as they are. Pets need to change – or simply be able to be removed – entirely in order to preserve a competitive s/tPvP/WvW environment for all of the classes.
Going to concur with a lot of what’s been posted above:
The “meta” builds usually are the best in their designations, and OP claiming that his build is simply equally as effective on something played to death in attempts to make the entire class viable is highly unlikely.
That said, there may be something he knows the rest of us do not. Consequently, if he has nothing else to add, however, then the truth is he’s puffing his chest and touting an ego by claiming he’s simply better than everyone else.
Regarding the runes of strength thing, they really are overpowered based upon the situation. WvW players are almost totally against them due to the fact that all it does is further encourage the hammertrain warrior zerg meta by allowing it to even further overshadow other tactics, and their obscene effectiveness in this environment shuts out any other alternative. Consequently, these runes also shut down entire classes or weaponsets, such as the ranger longbow, for barrage now not only can cause a ranger to die from group retal, but it can now also give an entire zerg many stacks of might. The same applies to arrow cart tactics and the likes. In the sPvP and PvE environments, these runes aren’t changing too much to the point where a nerf could easily be justified and not affect much.
Aside from extremely high level fractals, I’ve had no issues with group formation/acceptance while playing on either of my two rangers.
The pet however is largely to blame in regards to why the class isn’t favored, or even favorable to play, in certain situations. I find myself disgusted with the class despite being a ranged main in every game I play when forced into an AoE-heavy environment.
Oh you’re referring to sPvP. I was talking WvW.
Spirit bunker is already considered a solid build there, and I believe power/survival longbow is beginning to make a presence in sPvP thanks to RtW.
Their success in WvW is wildly inhibited as opposed to sPvP where they can flourish more due to the lower volume of targets.
I pretty much posted everything I had to say in the CDI and have done so as well throughout these boards for a while now.
But I’m mostly popping in just to boast a little bit for the OP quoting my post from the CDI :P
That said, thief shortbow and warrior longbow are not adequate substitutes.
Cluster bomb is pretty much the only thing that a thief has going for it in terms of damage from the shortbow. AOE poison is cool, and can be a game-changer, but it’s close range and the overall weapon’s lack of damage potential pushes the thieve’s shortbow into utility territory. Shortbow on thieves is never taken as a valid mainhand weapon due to its low DPS, forced AOE’s, and simply the fact that it provides an immense amount of utility which the class lacks elsewhere, such as AOE, range attacks, evade spam/reposition, heal cutting via the toxic field, and a teleport. To call this a mainhand possibility on par with playing ranged DPS, however, is simply untrue.
With warriors, the issues resides in mobility and ranged maintenance. The warrior’s longbow actually performs the best when standing on top of your foe. Arcing Arrow’s low projectile speed allows for it to be dropped instantly in front of you if you’re on top of the foe, and the weapon’s overall slow projectile speed and lack of any real influential synergy with itself makes the kit feel clunky and awkward. You’ve got condi burning on the adrenaline, but basically every other skill in the kit is either out of place or simply weak. Ham bow is part of the meta only because it allows for some poke, but mostly because of Arcing Arrow and a burn field.
Not to mention the slew of flavor issues it has; a heavy warrior is running around (slowly) using a bow in melee range to shoot fireballs. …What is that supposed to be?
Rangers have definitely gotten better, especially with RtW now actually allowing for longbow attacks to hit, however the class still needs either a rework to accommodate for solo archers, or again, as I mentioned in the CDI, another class needs to take upon the role. A dedicated archer is doable, albeit it’s not some crazy build that’ll let you perform well. It doesn’t really have a particular place anywhere, but it can do some nice damage to squishier targets and help pick off low-HP targets or back-liners.
I can’t say I can recommend another game for you. I could have five years ago, but that game has since gone to hell due to pay2win/internal company issues (stole my heart on how well they implemented ranged classes in the core game, though, and nothing since has touched those).
Ultimately, if you think you can bear waiting to 80 and making a nice ascended longbow (or two), a 6/6/2/0/0 berserker longbow/longbow swap (from traits for fury) build isn’t too bad damage-wise.
And Rangers have 1500 range autoattack, Barrage which makes a cripple field, stealth, and a reliable range interrupt.
Sadly barrage is a horrible skill easily dodged and due to retal, can often kill the ranger using it.
And now with Runes of Strength, it can provide large groups of enemies immense stacks of might very quickly.
Really all they have going for them is the ranged damage and the knockback at the moment, and even that’s kind of meh with all of the gap-closing in the game.
(edited by DeceiverX.8361)
On topic:
They’d be fine if they weren’t applied by AOE’s.
A ranger or two throws barrage on a zerg and then all of a sudden the entire enemy hammertrain has 25 stacks of might. Whoops.
Depends on the skill. The thief has access to a lot of utility while it’s CC’ed. The ele not as much, though.
Granted the thief rightfully should, seeing as it’s part of the class definition and arguably it’s only realistic counter to well… dying. The damage alone from the CC attacks is usually enough to drop squishier-built thieves. Losing 70% of your max health in one hammer swing is a pretty big deal.
Stability =/= a stun break, teleport, or relocation skill, though.
I don’t know if you saw my previous suggestion as to how to make this signet more useful along the lines of CC issues, but I suggested stun break + 1 second stability. 5 Seconds is absolutely too crazy when this signet passive isn’t even necessary while in combat anyways due to chill/fear/immob/cripple access.
Regarding the ranger comment, while QZ is a stun break, likely if my opponent got that close to begin with, PBS is on cooldown, and going stunbreak likely into another stun (looking at you, warriors) is just a waste of a skill ultimately forcing oneself into cut healing. Even then, QZ’s on cooldown usually as soon as the skirmish begins, thus I simply do my best to avoid CC altogether via dodges.
Power coefficients should naturally be higher, though, seeing as condition damage ignores toughness.
Ultimately what keeps conditions behind is the stack cap, and massive AOE cleansing in zergs, and in PvE, the relatively low toughness but high health pool of monsters/bosses, the rate at which regular hits can be applied versus conditions, and of course, the stack cap.
Conditions are a build path which simply just appears to be impossible to balance due to the way they work. Can’t make coefficients or application too high without then working on better/more consistent mitigation options, and situational mitigation/damage reduction is one of those things I don’t believe to be considered as good game design. Forcing players to build in a way to shut down others’ entire builds because their damage application becomes obscenely and wildly overpowered without doing so in my opinion is just a tricky mechanic which doesn’t really seem feasible to balance, especially when other non-damage control conditions which are affected by duration modifiers are thrown into the mix, too.
It’s particularly why I don’t support duration +/- food in WvW; I deem it, just like conditions in general, something too potent if ignored but too weak if heavily countered. By getting rid of both types of food, ultimately the worst-case scenario for conditions improves by a fair margin, allowing these builds to be more consistent, which is something I think a lot of people want more of when it comes to condi builds.
blowing all your cooldowns before you run away is your fault on the thief .. ranger has plenty of cc and constantly does damage while cc’d with your pet to keep the enemy at bay till it wears off not to mention by the time someone reaches you they are usually low hp from all the damage you have done from range
I did specify pvp?………….. and wow@@ you can negate up to 4 cc blasts from some professions on low cooldowns with 2 dodges? amazing…
proper positioning? so I am forced to be pointless and stand beyond 600 range and just go pew pew pew with my staff ?
It is, and running a signet burst build REQUIRES this. This is why I argue it’s not necessary when I frequently find myself surviving encounters with no utilities and just using dodge rolls to avoid getting CC’ed altogether.
With the ranger, do you know how longbow/longbow works? Doesn’t sound like it. I’ll explain it below.
And pets “keeping an enemy at bay?” Lol, okay. Keep dreaming. I’d get rid of the pet for damage retention at close range at any time because the thing is worthless in PvP environments.
Yes, it was specified “PvP.” PvP as a definition refers to Player vs Player. What that means in this context never got clarified, meaning it includes WvW and sPvP, and from a WvW perspective, I’m not agreeing with necro gaining access to long-duration stability.
Proper positioning applies to all builds. You can be d/d and still position yourself right to avoid damage. You dodge in a direction. Use that for re-positions to avoid the next hit. Kite in melee for cooldown resets if you pose an advantage on your refresh. Consequently, if you don’t, then you also have death shroud to let you get the advantage.
If being “useless” to you is using range or not just going all-in all the time, I’d suggest you either try a different class or even a different game. Knowing when to attack and position is arguably more important than fast reflexes and a good build, and if you’re downright refusing to learn how, no amount of ridiculous buffs is going to fix that.
CC hits everyone like a train when it hits. That’s why necros have that nice health pool + death shroud. My characters get CC’ed, and I die. I main:
Actually no they dont, just on ranger you got: GS evade, GS Block, Shorbow evade, Sword evade, the second sword evade, Axe projectile reflection, Dagger evade, tSoStone, tSoWild, Lightning Reflexes, Rampage as One, Primal Reflexes, Vigorous Renewal, Enlargement and Vigorous Training.
ANY of it can be used to efficiently give you at least 1 more dodge/more immunity than necro can ever hope to.
I quote myself:
“When it hits.”
Yea, when the CC actually HITS the target and the target is CC’ed.
Second, I’m not arguing classes but builds. I said I already run 6/6/2/0/0 full glass longbow/longbow on the ranger. I assume you’re not familiar with the build to be suggesting I have access to those utilities, either. I was so nice to go and fetch it for reference:
So I have a single stunbreak (as does necro) and no cooldown refresh on weapon swap, no active dodges outside of the base two (I get vigor but that doesn’t do much when it pertains to spam CC’s), and I still manage just fine. There’s also no CC except the knockback, which again, can be protected against via stability from other classes.
And just like my thief, the strategy is “don’t get hit by CC to begin with” And it works, too. Necros don’t even need to be worried about getting hit by damage nukes, making it even easier to dodge the incoming blows properly.
I still don’t understand.
“No” stability becomes “little” stability.And that having to build for it becomes an issue.
And that using DS to stay alive while CC’ed is not the same as blowing utilities to stay alive and blow dodges to prevent the damage to prevent dying (rather than just facetanking the damage).
And that signet of the Locust is not a good signet because it’s not worth activating… except this applies to a ton of other signets across every class.
And that necromancer’s weakness is mobility when they have such high access to mobility via a signet like other classes (dependent on a waste of a skill slot like everyone else) or still having access to it via DS through traits.
And that Necros deserve mitigation + stability + tanking options + the ability to run a MM build for DPS and control.These demands are absolutely outrageous. If you want to frontline in a zerg, you’re going to have to build for it. Otherwise, do what everyone else has to do and avoid the stunlock through dodges and blind applications.
You’re not getting any sympathy from me as on my eight characters, I do not have stability, teleports, blindspam, or durability on any of them, and I do not get chain-CC’ed because I can use my dodges well and simply avoid getting hit through proper positioning.
It’s the fact of only having one real pathway for active defence while every other class has options open to them. Yeah sure these options may not be lengthy in nature, but neither is Death shroud. In the end this post is starting to go off topic from the stability idea.
Not really, though. Proper positioning and predicting player movement and attack patterns, subsequently making one never get hit to begin with is the ultimate form of active defense and CC negation.
That’s why I don’t even bother with anything for it on my characters. It’s actually not necessary whatsoever, and frankly, I find it more of a crutch for people more than anything.
The only time it’s arguably necessary is when you’re zerging in WvW. In which case, why are you front-lining a necro? Where is your guard’s stability? Those are the results of not actually being part of a group but just thinking you are by being alongside them.
It’s even been admitted to that necros are fine if not one of the best classes for WvW earlier in this thread, with even supporters claiming it wouldn’t be necessary for it.
OP never specified WvW or sPvP. PvP generally speaking refers to both. And because it would be so absurd in WvW, this is not the kind of change that needs to be made to the necromancer. A stun break + 1 sec stability for a reposition? Sure. They have the HP to take the initial hit, and with proper timing and reflexes, could simply get out of that kind of situation. Long-duration stability is not the answer, though, especially when gameplay-wise currently, it is one of the best ways/fewest ways to kill a necro.
@topic:
CC hits everyone like a train when it hits. That’s why necros have that nice health pool + death shroud. My characters get CC’ed, and I die. I main:
A max-burst D/D signet thief (so I enter a fight revealed with all of my utilities blown and no active defense in my build or on my weapons), and have no issues with getting CC’ed. Not because I live through it, or because of any traits or skills, but because of dodging, with no endurance modifiers or anything, just as every other class.
A longbow/longbow bird/bird 6/6/2/0/0 full berserker weapon swap burst ranger. Again, I run just a single stunbreak here, effectively placing me in the realm of “don’t get hit or die.”
And I run into no issues on either of these classes, despite the low health pools and almost no ways to deal with it. Giving the necro the capacity to even further facetank counterplay in WvW just makes no sense when other players (or simply, everyone, including necromancers) have the capacity to do so on builds which have no access to any forms of negation and strictly less survivability, and do so by individual player skill.
(edited by DeceiverX.8361)
That’d be an extremely roundabout and resource-intensive way to handle condition timers o.O
I sincerely doubt that’s how it works, just based upon how the conditions tick; they don’t get applied on the same tick because the servers (and I can tell you this now as a fact without even needing to know anything about the servers) are not using seconds as a means of telling time or determining tick cycles.
You still need to wait until a predetermined level to unlock the next trait tier, though. It’s just been increased by 20 levels.
The new system literally does nothing better than the old system except for free on-demand resets, which I don’t even consider as part of the “new” system.
Hell, even keeping the reset price there but allowing it to be on-demand would have been nice as to compensate for a lack of gold-sinking if they got rid of unlock prices.
Regarding the comment about ANet’s speach before release:
My thoughts exactly. I don’t know how they claimed that this new systems makes levels have a more impacting sense to them, or how the pace becomes better for new players. The system achieved just the opposite.
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Numbers change a lot in WvW. This is the ONLY reason conditions are not the sole builds played. Zergs with support and water blasting allow for rapid AOE condi removal to the point where they barely even get applied to begin with.
This is why you’re seeing complaints that conditions are OP and UP – roamers find them extremely oppressive to due how tanky they leave people and how difficult it is to overcome the application, and thus the necessity in running condi cleanse and -40% food. Zerg heavies, though, with plenty of backline support and water blasting, run power builds because there is so much condi removal going on that only choice is to run power. That’s also not to mention the fact that condition stacks are capped at 25, making them possibly less effective in zergs, and even less so with PUGs.
The issue with condition damage is that it scales only on one stat by gear and only some synergy via traits.
As of how condition damage is currently handled, there is no way to balance the stat. Unlike power-oriented builds, which in order to maximize DPS require three stats (Power, precision, and ferocity), condition builds only need condition damage and maybe power (Carrion) if they’re really tryharding for low-toughness target kills. The only other synergy they get is either in the form of a few off-traits, or the 40% food.
Frankly, I feel as though it would have been smarter to implement conditions in general as status ailments and not as a form of damage due to the sheer impossibility that is truly balancing them.
As others have mentioned, why not just remove both +/- foods?
That would result in anyone fighting against a condition user having the equivalent of running the -40% food. All condition builds right now already heavily rely on the +40% food and are likely running with it at all times. Power builds running the -40% food are much more rare, despite giving a huge advantage over the condition build.
In fact, the -40% food overpowers the +40% food. Take a 4 second bleed and add 40% to the duration. Now we’re at a 5.6 second bleed, or 1 extra tick. Remove 40% of that 5.6 and we are at 3.36 seconds and have actually removed 2 ticks of bleeding. That’s 1 less tick than the base bleed.
So you might argue that this example is a good reason to remove both foods, but condition builds rely too heavily on the 40% food and are still nowhere near the top. Where were they in the ToL? Where are they in groups larger than 5 in WvW? Where are they in dungeons or fractals? Removing this food will push condition builds even further into the ground.
If anything is overpowered, it’s the -40% food. Not only does it negate the +40% food, it continues to remove an additional tick from second-based damaging conditions. The -40% food is objectively better than the +40% food.
No, that would result in the current situation of players neither using + 40% or -40% food, which as you quite literally just demonstrated, proves to make conditions more effective than right now. That 4 seconds now STAYS as four ticks and nothing can be done in regards to food to counteract that. This makes condition damage more consistent across the board and now lets players actually invest in condition damage modifiers rather than just duration ones. The bottom line is that the only reason 40% food is used is because it’s the best food for any condition build.
That’s precisely why I’m suggesting both be removed. The food is over-the-top against anyone not running the -condition duration food, and the -duration food too easily shuts down condition builds as a whole.
And that’s a whole separate issue. Conditions in general need fixing. They’re an extreme which either gets totally shut down by builds with a lot of cleanse, or imply have no counter whatsoever. They ignore toughness and still keep damaging through heals. Power builds are dominant in zergs because AoE cleanses can be performed on everyone in the zerg, and because CC-based builds are ones which aren’t condition-based. If this wasn’t the case, conditions would be the only WvW builds to play and that’s just absolute fact. The same is said about condi bunker’s potency in sPvP, where food isn’t even allowed.
And in PvE? They’re weak only because of stack capping. That has nothing to do with the potency in PvP environments, and exists only because of ANet’s irresponsibility of handling mobs and bosses to be incapable of receiving more than one form of condition stack. Doing this on players is just not feasible as there would subsequently be too many indicators, and cleanses would need to remove all instances of one type of condition.
The fact of the matter pertaining to condition builds, however, is that they absolutely should not be dealing more or even similar damage to berserker-based builds. The fact that a player can maximize his damage throughput by building into both forms of defenses and then traiting into what are usually defensive lines should demonstrate that condition builds should be incapable of reaching DPS and burst values accrued by regular damage/berserker builds. Not to mention 40% food also keeps players in combat for extensive periods of time; ultimately allowing for condition-built characters to enter a fight, apply a long-duration condition after the initial bomb to force a cleanse, walk away, reset the fight on their end, and then walk back to the other player still in combat.
Blinds are active defense though.
Talk to any thief or ranger running birds, and that IS an active form of damage negation, and if you’re not willing to examine your surroundings and learn move choreography to time your blinds right, then you need to seriously re-evaluate your stance here seeing as that’s what defines good players from bad ones who get stomped by getting hit by CC in the first place.
And you wouldn’t be behind every other profession in blinds. I do believe the only profession capable of beating out the necro in terms of blind application potential is the thief unless specifically built for applying blind.
I still don’t understand.
“No” stability becomes “little” stability.
And that having to build for it becomes an issue.
And that using DS to stay alive while CC’ed is not the same as blowing utilities to stay alive and blow dodges to prevent the damage to prevent dying (rather than just facetanking the damage).
And that signet of the Locust is not a good signet because it’s not worth activating… except this applies to a ton of other signets across every class.
And that necromancer’s weakness is mobility when they have such high access to mobility via a signet like other classes (dependent on a waste of a skill slot like everyone else) or still having access to it via DS through traits.
And that Necros deserve mitigation + stability + tanking options + the ability to run a MM build for DPS and control.
These demands are absolutely outrageous. If you want to frontline in a zerg, you’re going to have to build for it. Otherwise, do what everyone else has to do and avoid the stunlock through dodges and blind applications.
You’re not getting any sympathy from me as on my eight characters, I do not have stability, teleports, blindspam, or durability on any of them, and I do not get chain-CC’ed because I can use my dodges well and simply avoid getting hit through proper positioning.
LOL.
So what you’re saying is that having the best counter-burst class with the single biggest health pool and defensive resources in the game is not capable of negating things like burst damage which requires the expense of multiple/all utility skills/skills/resources to execute is not a means of negating anything? Your class negates and just blatantly beats entire characters/builds alone just by pressing F1.
When that thief stabs you for 16k and you just walk away, still retaining a huge base health pool and having a substantial amount of life force left… do you realize that such a skill/skill combo would have just instantly killed:
Thieves, Eles, Rangers, Guardians, Mesmers, and Engineers?Or that warrior doing a 22k HB during a knockdown? That axe/axe warrior peforming a 17k eviscerate?
That mesmer with the 17k damage tri-shatter?
Death shroud is the best mitigation/negation in the game. Why? Because it lets you not die when you rightfully should have, and in doing so lets you just walk over other people while they wait for cooldowns and utilities.
We have the ability to temporarily extend our HP by 70% of what it would be, sure. So the full 12k killshot just gets absorbed by DS. Is that good? Yes. Did it actually NEGATE the killshot? No, we simply tanked the kitten out of it. But what if he tried to killshot someone else? They evade, they dodge, they block, they invuln, etc. Now what if 5 warriors all killshot you? The necromancer STILL has to face tank all the damage, only now we don’t have the ability to, because all we have is flat HP, so we absorb all 60k damage to the face. Every other class? They still take 0 damage, because they NEGATE the attack completely.
And again, the topic of this thread is specifically to give us stability. Something that does not directly reduce the damage we take at all. It is simply acknowledging that Necromancers are forced to face tank all the damage that comes at us, so we should actually have access to the tools to do that, like every single other class has access to their own type of mechanics to deal with incoming damage.
Are you implying then that you are incapable of dodging?
If any other class is missing their active damage mitigation, then they also die. Actually, if any class gets targeted by five warriors using killshot, they will all likely die if the warriors are working together in an organized way.
Actually, why the hell would five warriors ever get together and use killshot to kill someone? It only takes one with a hammer lol.
The fact of the matter is that you’re arguing for something which is unnecessary. Yea, if there were skills which hti for 60k, then fine, I’d agree, but the fact you’re arguing to get a mechanism to be able to survive five warriors using killshot without needing to dodge is absolutely bonkers when every other class has to do just that to mitigate such damage.
The thread is about stability, sure, but your point arguing that Necros need to tank harder because they don’t have it is moot seeing as they can just ignore all of the incoming damage anyways. Giving necros stability or simply more negation than mitigation simply would make them the undisputed best tanks in the game, especially since they can already DPS bomb with conditions in a PvP environment while running dire gear.
It’s why I see no justification behind this issue; what you’re asking for would simply break the class to the point necro would be the only thing played because nothing could take damage better.
As others have mentioned, why not just remove both +/- foods?
No point in running the -condition duration food if the +duration food no longer exists, and then the skills and times are now balanced in eachother as they are designed to be in competitive environments like sPvP.
Duration makes little difference in PvE because the durations of the skills are intended to be a certain way such that condition damage is regulated to a certain amount of uptime/stacks for balancing purposes. Reliance on this food for PvE content is silly and unjust, and in the case of dungeons, is arguably useless because of the condition stack cap on bosses/monsters.
All of which are actively cast. Claiming we have no active negating abilities is untrue.
No, it is quite true. Death Shroud doesn’t negate anything.
LOL.
So what you’re saying is that having the best counter-burst class with the single biggest health pool and defensive resources in the game is not capable of negating things like burst damage which requires the expense of multiple/all utility skills/skills/resources to execute is not a means of negating anything? Your class negates and just blatantly beats entire characters/builds alone just by pressing F1.
When that thief stabs you for 16k and you just walk away, still retaining a huge base health pool and having a substantial amount of life force left… do you realize that such a skill/skill combo would have just instantly killed:
Thieves, Eles, Rangers, Guardians, Mesmers, and Engineers?
Or that warrior doing a 22k HB during a knockdown? That axe/axe warrior peforming a 17k eviscerate?
That mesmer with the 17k damage tri-shatter?
Death shroud is the best mitigation/negation in the game. Why? Because it lets you not die when you rightfully should have, and in doing so lets you just walk over other people while they wait for cooldowns and utilities.
Spammable teleports? Please enlighten me.
The skill does need some work. Cripple access is honestly a great thing – being able to cut off a warrior from running away or slowing down another class which tosses cripple on you can keep you up to pace.
The skill just has no use anywhere, though. D/D stab is all about the teleport in and burst them to death with only one rotation. P/D already has the ranged advantage as well as an immobilize and simply, better things to spend init on. S/D is already maneuverable enough to simply not need it with Infil Strike granting immobilize and a high tolerance for remaining glued to one’s target.
Asking for another long range gap close would be potentially too much due to how much access thieves have to them (as much as I’d personally love a two-part teleport on this skill, it would be crazy).
I could only see some kind of reposition/CC work if it applied only to a very close range, like 300. The concept of fixed-distance gap closers is also very interesting, though (as in if your target is closer to you than max range, you travel through them and up to the skill’s max range anyway), and could act as a possibility.
Either way, I think the cripple should stay. It’s just that dancing dagger’s application is poor. It’ slow, wonky, and very difficult to land on moving/evading targets to the point where it just feels like a waste of initiative.
RtW made longbow usable. Not good, but usable.
The entire class kind of plays that way aside from spirit bunker/shout ranger. It’s usable, and can be done, but strictly speaking, it’s not actually “good” in any regard.
Woah woah woah.
Guards have really crazy DPS and burst. My friend’s guard’s whirl does around 14k on its own.
The thing about this build is that it’s not designed to burst heal. It’s designed to heal significant amounts of health constantly, thus removing the need to burst heal and enter stealth for a prolonged period, thus keeping it on point and in the fight for longer.
It’s not meant to run stealth capping, though. It’s a defensive build meant to turtle hard. Entering stealth while defending a point doesn’t automatically give the point to your opponents, either, so just using the brief stealths to heal a bit more will be short enough to prevent caps.
Not really sure S/P will work. You really need the fast and reliable attacks to proc your signet as much as possible. S/P is kind of unreliable with getting hits in due to how easy it can be for other players to just get out of the damage, thus cutting off your heals.
With WvW, I don’t know if you’ll see much success. It’s not really meant to kill anything and damage values there are way higher. Due to the reliance on healing over time, I’m not sure if one would be able to counter burst damage and condi bombs well enough.
EDIT:
On a totally different note, Hawkeye, you might want to change your sig as you spelled ‘beginning’ wrong :P
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That’s actually quite interesting. Did not at all think that would work.
Hmmm.
With the new trait system, D/D is kind of pointless to use until you’re 80 due to the lack of access to Hidden Killer. However shortbow should almost always be in the off-slot. The ability to easily kite mobs + on demand dodge + poison field for healing cuts is really nice utility. You can also use Shadow Shot (#5) while immobilized to avoid getting hit by the next incoming attack.
Sword mainhand is a good idea just because it deals fair damage, cleaves, and lets you get in and out with Infiltrator’s Strike.
S/P is good and makes clearing some content easier, but it’s spammy and won’t really help you become a better player. Consider whether or not you want to play in WvW later on before committing to this, as this set is not very good in WvW at all.
If you’re planning on playing in WvW or want to simply get better as a player before you enter D/D, I’d suggest trying S/D. Access to stealth is nice to ditch aggro if you have an NPC companion in your personal story, and you get a lot of dodges on #3 as well. This is not an easy set to learn, and simply just may not be for you, but it can be really good for solo play and will definitely make you a better player if mastered.
I don’t follow.
You only get revealed training when you’re revealed, not on the backstab attack itself.
And you can only backstab if you’re in stealth, in which case you won’t have revealed training up.
The trait literally has no use in a stab build. I think it’s meant more for S/D, S/P, or P/P.
So I was dared by a friend to make a tank thief that he couldn’t kill on his guardian in sPvP. He couldn’t even do it when running a full DPS berserker signet build, either.
The build is genuinely simple. Maintain blindness on them, and heal.
So when you get hit, you’ll start healing from pain response if you get to 75%.
Meanwhile you can just spam unload for lots of triggers on your signet and from Assassin’s Reward.
You’ll also be curing conditions with Sigil of Purity, if that wasn’t enough.
But wait, there’s more! You can always use spider venom for 5 procs of Leeching Venoms.
Ouch, got hit by poison and lost a little health, eh? Just in case you dip below 50%, you can always just Shadow Refuge for regeneration and condition cleansing.
And why stop there? You can regen and cure conditions AND apply more blindness to them with Blinding Powder.
And just when you thought it couldn’t get any better at all, for a limited time, I’ll even give you the option to Steal to get the Mug heal trigger.
And because I’m just trying to desperately to be like Billy Mayes (R.I.P.), I’ll even toss in a get-out-of-jail-free-card! Swapping weapons lets you get out of harms way by either shadow striking to get distance or using CnD for more heals and regen, meanwhile proc’ing sigil of Leeching for your next attack to heal you even more while sneak attack procs your signet!
WOW! Look at those heals! I’ll even give you Runes of Dwayna for the chance to gain even more regen!
And did I mention that you’ve yet to actually use your healing skill, either, which even gives you vigor for more than 60% of its cooldown? It’s fun for the whole family!
But hold the phone! Pain response is probably off cooldown by now, and you’re almost ready to repeat the whole thing!
And did I mention SR is also a dark field, and you have plenty of access to projectile finishers and a whirl in case things get hairy if you get into a multi-way skirmish?
Granted, you’re not going to lead the team in kills – and might be a little dependent on others to come help you out for them – but I thought this build was so enjoyable to play that it would be worth posting just in case anyone else wants a good chuckle.
Enjoy, folks.
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fZAQRAqa6Yl8MpopdPx8J0PNBNBxdNyxM0KAdHl+2EA-TZxFwAKOCAQLD44kAA4BAAa/BA
(edited by DeceiverX.8361)
2791 power (no might)
3491 power with 20stacks of mightup to 65% damage modifiers when target is under 50%
if you want pure burst and gtfo then here you go.
You do realize that revealed training doesn’t affect stab, right?
And that strength runes are only decent if you’re taking hits, which is likely a really bad idea if you’re planning on GC signet burst, otherwise making scholars more useful for burst damage.
And that Flanking Strikes causes DPS losses versus Thrill of the Crime due to CnD crits from fury and the might. Thrill also lets you pop your signet of shadows while not losing mobility. You’re much better off with Residual venoms to get the stab more reliably since you’re not using mug to get the stun on steal for a reposition.
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OP shouldn’t be telling rangers to switch weapons but to learn to kite.
Dunno if CnD needs a buff. It’s got a pretty nice ratio to be honest, and it can be used to maintain permanent stealth if you don’t stab.
Dancing dagger needs tweaks. The damage before the nerf was indeed way too high (two targets next to each other before the nerf would have each dancing dagger cast deal more than mug + cnd + stab combined), however simply the effect is just no good. Cripple access is great, it’s just the projectile speed is too slow and the initiative cost too high for what it does overall.
Death Lotus is fair. I don’t really think it needs any changes aside from maybe some frame reworks and the casting time adjusted so that the dodge portion actually works well enough to use (currently you’re evasive for only a small portion of the skill use, making you incapable of moving your character while taking damage and unable to adjust positioning).
This is my personal burst build and frankly this is arguably the best D/D burst build available.
Why people moved? I dunno. D/D offers better burst and superior DPS throughputs than D/P and D/P is kind of a noob/scrub build with a bad rep because it’s too easy and too gimmicky.
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Y’know.
It would have been a good idea to have these unlocks work as they are if you just received a point for every thing you did.
And those points could be spent to unlock any given trait you want on any tier, and simply just all trait prices are changed to be like 50s each (50s x 13 = 6g50s x 5 = 32g50s).
So a player can complete a bunch of easy objectives, unlock a whole ton of low-tier ones to experiment with, and then move onto a newer, higher level zone, and repeat this process, ultimately then needing to complete objectives like 100% map completion on high level maps in order to unlock all of his traits for free.
I understand the gold price increase – it was done to offset the free repairs – but the dungeon gold decrease was what offset this. I even see the necessity in a sink. It’s just the means of acquisition for some traits is totally obscene and really destructive.
What I think is most funny about the poison cloud nerf is that at 900 range, a thief can no longer blast his own ranged combo field due to the slow projectile speed of cluster bomb.
The profession is high-risk high-reward at the moment. I think it feels relatively underpowered just because a lot of the other professions have a lot going for them in regards of low-risk high-reward builds.
The only adjustments I could see would be:
Hide in Shadows: Also removes torment (skill not updated with torment implementation)
and either:
-Signets of Power combined with Signet Use into Master Slot
-Some kind of extra condition removal for all builds via either a new mechanic or some form of passive effect.
That being said, I believe D/P as a weapon set is quite silly in general, and could possibly be toned down.
Hammer/hard CC builds need some adjustments as well to decrease the amount of time they can keep foes locked down or the gaps they can close.
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I’ve never actually been hate whispered once while on my thief.
I actually recently got whispered by a warrior I killed who congratulated me by stating that he had never died so quickly and wanted to make a thief like mine.
I think it’s because I run honorable D/D stab with no stealth except for CnD and don’t spam 222222 or in d/p’s case, 52222222252222222.
The new LB rangers are a pain… with read the wind you can’t just side step rapid fire, and it follows you in stealth… caught me off guard a couple of times… its 75% hp of my health gone, or all my dodges
You never could sidestep rapid fire. And RtW isn’t responsible for stealth tracking. That’s also built into Rapid Fire and has been as long as the game has been out. The trade-off with Rapid Fire is that it deals less damage than longbow #1 does, so you either track stealth/apply vuln or deal more damage.
There is no explanation needed tbh
Well the whole condi meta argument is dead the Tournament of Legends EU and NA showed there is no condi meta. We know there is not one in PvE. So that leaves dueling/WvW roaming definitely not zergs.
If conditions met the criteria you say then all the teams in the ToL EU and NA would have ran condi obviously there is a counter to make it not worth going conditions. Despite the “easy” to play of conditions they aren’t being used in high level competitive play with rewards on the line. So maybe they are “easy” but not effective?
Anyway the condi threads are about to die lets make way for the new era of “nerf bunkers” threads along with “we need to nerf hambow again”.
This isn’t a good way of analyzing balance, though.
Balance should be considered at all skill levels and under all circumstances.
The condition meta is more prevalent in WvW because sPvP did not get affected by the ferocity change values, and there was always a pre-existing cap on critical damage which is approximately half of what it is in other game modes.
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