Guild Wars 2

Shouts are a skill set that rangers share with warriors and guardians, but while the other two use their shouts to bolster themselves and their allies and command the battlefield, rangers use theirs to command their animal companion. Unfortunately, the shouts fall short of being especially strong, for the most part. Here are some changes that I think could make shouts not only useful, but the center piece in new builds that would add a new element to PVP.

Guard: Allow your pet to contest strategic points in SPVP and WvWvW while Guard is active. This would add a whole new dimension to the skill, and give a very good reason to take a tanky pet like a bear into an SPVP match. In SPVP the fact everyone is forced to fight inside a single, small circle is a massive benefit in favor of tanky, melee heavy builds. This would allow a squishier ranged build an effective means to kite the melee without risking losing the strategic point.

As a secondary aspect to this change have Guard, once activated, change into a “Heel” command that forces the pet to remain stationary on the point designated by Guard, this way the ranger can choose between letting the pet pursue enemies in Guard’s area of effect or forcing the pet to stand at the center and not pursue, giving more tactical options to it’s use.

I feel like removing stealth from the skill would be an acceptable compensation if it needs it. Besides that, the stealth functionality of the skill would no longer be required.

Search and Rescue: Allow the pet to revive at a normal rate. I’ve just sacrificed a utility slot to save lives, making my pet revive at a snail’s pace won’t make a difference in a large battle. More importantly however, reduce the cool down of this skill from the absurd 85 seconds to a much, much more reasonable 15 seconds. No one considers the revival of a single ally per battle worth a utility slot, and rightfully so. However, if the skill could be used multiple times in each team fight the value of the skill would increase exponentially. Suddenly you can regularly revive an ally without inhibiting your ability to keep up the pressure on the enemy team, or pairing up with your pet to revive an ally at double speed. Rangers suddenly have a unique role in team fights as field medics, which gives them more options to contribute to team fights than just their spirit build.

Consequently, this would also make Stability Training worth taking as a trait.

Sick ‘Em: Allow this to cause your pet to teleport behind the target, basically functioning life steal for the pet. This would allow pets to overcome terrain problems and allow the ranger to have their pet position itself more favorably. No more sitting from a vantage point and having your pet unable to attack, or watching your enemy jump up a ledge to completely escape the pet’s attacks!

(Continue on Second Post)

Serraphin Storm.2369:

No I do not what a perma stow option. I have played my ranger since beta. I created the class knowing full well what it was. Buff or no buff either way I don’t want to be the situation of me having to justify why im using my pet rather than stowing it.

No class has the option of not using their class mechanic. If this does happen then I want the option of changing all my ascended to another class.

Really you can play without your pet just let it die.

Aaactually every profession can play without their class mechanic. Elementalists can just sit in fire attunement, thieves don’t HAVE to use steal, mesmers don’t have to shatter, warriors don’t need to use their F1 skill, etc.

It’s not optimal, but it’s an option. I really just want a permanent stow so I can explore without my pet aggroing various creatures and fighting to keep me in combat, as well as do jumping puzzles without every little bit of fall damage making it pop out. It’s a quality of life change, not a request to be able to fight at 100% effectiveness without the pet.

Personally I definitely made my ranger with the intent to use a pet. However, there are a lot of little moments where I’d like the pet to stay stowed even if something made me go into “combat.”

Atherakhia.4086:

+

It would also need to grant something to the class if we stowed it like what was discussed in the CDI at great length. It would also need to be quite powerful considering I’m giving up 2 knock downs, an AE immob, and an AE fear to get it.

I’m pretty sure the OP just wants our pets to not automatically come out whenever we take even the slightest damage. Asking for something to make a petless ranger viable would be an entirely different discussion.

+

I like to roam and explore. Having my pet pop out whenever I take fall damage can be frustrating. Or when I get tagged by a mob and have absolutely no intention of engaging. My pet staying behind to fight just keeps me in combat so I can’t run away as effectively.

I had also thought spirits laying a combo field would make sense. We need more reasons to use their active abilities, and this would go a long way to making our spirits more effective at the heavy support roll.

I might’ve given the Sun Spirit a fire field for might stacking and the Stone Spirit the smoke field though.

I feel like choosing between an elite and another utility should be an option. In GW1 elite skills were amazing because they were optional, and if you had one it was the centerpiece of your entire build.

In GW2 we are all forced to have an elite that is usually only situationally useful, if even that. I almost never use my elite skills anymore because they aren’t worth it.

If we could choose between utilities and elites then people could take a utility that has a more constant value to the build. Elites should only be a part of a build if they serve a large, impactful purpose to how said build is played.

I still think adding a short dodge on Return to Me would help pets greatly in PVE. Along with a temporary speed boost. We need them to be decently protected while they begin their walk back to the ranger, since the AI is so slow to respond. A second or two of immediate dodge frames would negate the bulk of that initial damage the pet needs to survive before they can make their way out of the red circle.

That, along with cleave on bears and porcines, and piercing on devourers, which will give our tankier pets better damage output against trash mobs to help us clear faster, will be a large improvement in dungeon performance.

In WvWvW I had an idea. What if Anet adds a special pet food in the Mists specifically for that game mode. You can buy it for like, 10 badges or something trivial.

The basic idea is that this special food gives your pet a buff. For one hour or however long it should last the pet gets 50 toughness and vitality for each enemy in the vicinity. Maybe also an increase of 5% incoming healing per enemy to make sure the pet keeps their larger health pool up. In small scale combat it won’t amount to much. If you’re in a 10v10 the pet will only get 500 added to toughness and vitality, but if you’re in a 50v50 zerg battle it’d increase to 2,500 toughness and vitality, a huge increase.

The numbers can be adjusted accordingly, but this is the only way I could think to make sure the pet’s resistance scales with the amount of AoE you can expect in WvW without making the pet super resistant to AoE, which could make it overpowered in small scale pvp and other gamemodes.

This would be a pretty harsh nerf to Sick ‘Em, which would be rather sad. I enjoy the skill. I enjoy the idea of ranger shouts giving the pets commands and buffs. Currently this is the only shout that seems especially useful, so I’d hate to see it’s one unique contribution to a build taken by a utility that is already popularly used.

I have been running with both of them with my most recent BM build though. I find myself using Signet of the Hunt’s active ability fairly often since I used it and Sick ’Em together to deliver an especially large burst from my ranger. Maybe once the patch hits and rangers benefit from signet actives as well others will start using that active as well.

Something that might help the zerging ranger would be another mode you can keep your pet on. Between passive and aggressive have a protective mode where the pet will only attack if an enemy comes within a certain, fairly short, range of the player and won’t chase the enemy outside a slightly larger radius.

This would let a ranger keep the pet at their side as they do ranged damage from the back lines. It’d also let the pet automatically respond to things like thieves trying to pick off the back line of the zerg, so at least they are serving some sort of purpose. A hound throwing out a knockdown on a thief trying to line up a backstab could be a life saver. Plus in a large zerg we can’t always react with the perfect timing, but the AI could. It’s better than them being on passive and ignoring the threat to it’s master’s life.

Apparition is correct. The hammer does add an interesting layer to the game and makes it much harder to effectively bunker down. Even if you sent a bunker to control the hammer the other team can still get an instant win by knocking the bunker off, so it’s very difficult to obtain permanent control over the hammer room for an entire match if the other team communicates about what profession is in there and what tactic they are using.

Is it a guardian or engineer bunker? Send someone in with some good knockbacks, wait out the stability, get the right positioning, and BAM!

Is it a terrormancer? Make sure your teammates know what to expect when going through that portal and send someone who can counter a terrormancer. And yes terrormancers are beatable in that room. I’ve done it on my elementalist by positioning myself butt to purple energy wall next to the portal and letting the portal’s frame catch me when I got feared, waiting the fear spam out, and then going on the offensive.

Meanwhile if you keep up enough pressure on the skyhammer control room the enemy will be forced to keep two people inside to remain in control, which means the rest of the game is a 3v5. More than enough of an advantage to keep back capping and double teaming their members to victory despite the hammer blasts.

As I’ve already said, the only changes I’d make to the map are the glass panels and how they interact with stealth, and make it so death by fall damage doesn’t give the enemy team points to encourage people to actually fight without resorting to the fall tactic.

Petrol.9086:

Nope, honestly i’ve never ever used it, ever, so didn’t really bother me.
What does annoy me tho is how all the “bats” in the game are some wierd flying lizard monster. What’s the deal with that?

And more importantly, why can’t we tame them?

Once again guys. Spirits. Are. Not. AI.

Spirits don’t attack. They don’t move on their own unless traited and even then they just follow the ranger. They do nothing but give the passive chance to proc certain benefits with the player character’s auto attacks. The only other thing they do is an activated ability. The player can’t even choose where the spirit goes to detonate, they just do it wherever they happened to be standing at the time.

Spirit Ranger is no more an AI build than banners are for a warrior. The only difference is you can punch a spirit to death where as banners are immortal.

Removing the offense of the turret isn’t the answer. We don’t need another Spirit Ranger running around, do we?

Personally I’d tone down the turret damage with their auto attacks and buff the performance of the turret active abilities. Turrets should provide enough sustain to keep the enemy on the defensive while on point but not be enough to rip someone’s health down as quickly as they do. Improving the actives would make sure they provide the needed crowd control and small burst damage to punish people from being on point, as is their job, but would need input from the player to be effective.

I greatly enjoy this map. The only aspect of it that frustrates me are stealth pulls. Literally everything else can be avoided through careful positioning, well timed dodges, and knowing when to pop stability.

I’ve even managed to beat bomb engineers in the control room before because they focused too much on trying to knock me off and not enough on actually fighting.

Zenith.7301:

Evade command will do nothing in WvW where aoe is pretty much spammed.

And why should I have to not only worry about twitch dodging crap myself, but having to issue a command at the same type for my pet to do so as well?

That’s like an elementalist saying “Why should I have to cycle through four attunements and use 20 skills to be as effective as a warrior who’s only using five?”

It’s just part of the skill requirement of playing that profession. Right now we have a pet that is difficult to control and dies far too frequently that is suppose to represent 30% of our damage output. Any change that would improve pet survivability is a positive change, even if it makes the game a little harder to play for us.

Actually, following up with what I said in this thread:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/Fix-ranger-pets-in-PvE-already/4354362

Where I suggested we give bears and porcines cleave and devourers piercing to improve pet AoE damage.

With that change and this, bears and devourers would become excellent pets for dungeon runs.

Bears already have good defensive stats. Combine that with Defy Pain being on command and the bear naturally having cleave they’d be amazing for dungeons.

Especially if we tack on a second or so of evade frames on “Return to Me” command so that our pets can actually dodge. Put some sort of internal cooldown on the dodge frames so we can’t spam the dodges of course.

This would make devourers very handy if, instead of Tail Lash as the OP suggested, we get control of Evasive Retreat. That’d give us two evades on the devourer for added survivability and decent damage with the piercing shots I suggested.

Of course drakes would be even better for dungeon runners too. Already tanky and the ability to control exactly when they do their blast finisher would be a huge benefit.

For builds not interested in pets this change would see moas as a strong option since you could leave them passive at your side and use them for buffs and secondary heals. They’d also be spectacular additions to a ranger support build. Maybe even open doors for a BM support ranger using Compassion Training and Invigorating Bond to have four extra heals, two for each moa, that can also grant boons to nearby allies.

Pretty much every aspect of ranger would see a significant improvement through this buff. One that is arguably very much needed.

NinjaEd.3946:

Also flying pets (and enemies) need to ignore terrain, gliding up the xyz axis is already in play since we have water combat, why do bird pets need to go around edges to reach a target? Is it really any different from a pet or mob chasing you in water when you go up and down and around?

All of this here. It’s so aggravating to have a BIRD that can’t fly over that small little gap between your spawn point and point B in Skyhammer. I can clear it with a casual leap but my pet sees it and goes “I’m sorry, but it’s too far. I can’t possibly clear the distance.” as he calmly flutters right by my head.

Pets in general really need some way to clear small gaps and jump down from high points.

I’d love for body blocking to be part of the game. Unfortunately it’s technologically impossible. GW2 servers would never be able to support all those characters smashing into each other.

A guardian/monk NPC would work too. I’d prefer monk for flavor since it IS the Mists. A gateway between worlds and times. I just like seeing little things like that.

But yes. Something to provide heals. Some body blocking effects so invaders can’t just bullrush in and slaughter everyone and everything immediately. In a real siege there’d be soldiers at the gates ready to hold off enemies in a confined space to offset the numbers difference. Nothing too strong, just enough to at least slow the zerg down and force them to blow knockbacks and such to get by.

The ramparts are pretty frustrating though, yah. Enemy AoE will just go over them most of the time. And the tiny little bit of rampart along the edges that stop your from having line of sight? Bugger those things. Defenders shouldn’t have to stand precariously on the edge to hit the zerg below.

The pets do need some small changes to make them effective for PVE.

Cleave is something that should be on more pets just for flavor honestly. Aside from drakes, bears should definitely have cleave. They are freaking BEARS. They have huge arms and make wide, powerful swings that can rip through flesh and bone. Of all the animals on this list bears cleave IN REAL LIFE the most frequently! Porcines as well. At the very least boars and warthogs who are known to gore things in the wild through charges and wreck small groups of animals that get in their way. Devourers have two tails that shoot spikes so hitting multiple targets just makes sense. Rather than cleave though, they can have piercing shots for group damage.

This would give more pet options for cleave effects and maybe make devourers more viable as a ranged DPS option. Maybe improve their AI so they use the evade frames wisely or let the player control that ability and they’d be excellent for a dungeon run.

So we’d have a nice balance of AoE and single target pets.

AoE: Drakes, bears, porcines, and devourers.
Single Target: Birds, canines, felines, spiders, and moas.

Black Box.9312:

But that’s the problem with this game’s AI: You don’t micromanage them. The only thing you can do with any player controlled AI is tell them when to use a single ability, without even really telling them which target to use it on. With a ranger’s pet you can at least select the target, but I’d expect much more from an entire class mechanic.

That’s why people are opposed to player-controlled AI in this game. Because the player doesn’t actually have to be controlling them for them to work.

The AI’s weakness is part of the challenge of playing the style. The AI will not beat a competent player on their own. You need to constantly be using crowd controls and positioning to get the AI attacks to land properly while also dishing out damage yourself to keep any decent sustain going. Sure, the AI will attack and follow the target on their own, but they won’t do anything worthwhile without the player actively using their own abilities to aid the AI and choosing the right moment to use the AI special abilities. Some players find it FUN to serve as the support role for the AI and enjoy the challenge that comes from trying to work with brain dead zombies to execute a tactical plan.

As a BM Ranger I greatly enjoy having my companion be my equal partner and not just a pet. My raven is the bulk of my damage and my sylvan hound provides some minor crowd control and support while I provide low sustaining damage and take the bulk of the incoming damage with well timed evades, blocks, and healing. It’s loads of fun. While I myself might not have absolute control of everything my pet does I still have to keep an eye on it and use the attack and return commands to make sure my pet doesn’t run off on it’s own and leave me vulnerable. I need to choose which pet is best in which situation. If I see a big AoE incoming I might quickly switch out my raven for my hound, because if I don’t my raven will get OBLITERATED. If I have my hound out but see a thief ganking my ally during a group fight I’ll switch out and use Sick ‘Em with my raven’s F2 to hit the thief hard to keep them off my ally, while also dueling someone else on point. It does take a level of micromanaging, and doesn’t decrease the need for highly responsive playing on part of the actual player. I would be absolutely livid if Anet removed all AI in the game and completely deleted my companion. Frankly I’d probably quit the game.

Hotjoin was working fine before players got the ability to enter spectator mode and choose to join a specific side. Seems to me there are a few options that could fix it, if not at least make it much harder to exploit.

First being to simply remove the ability to choose your team. If it’s always random you can’t leave one team and join the other after an autobalance since you don’t control what team you end up on. Works even better if the game strongly favors putting you on the losing team when both sides have an equal number.

Another option is to make it so that the game adds people to a game in pairs initially, so if you wanted to join a game that was evenly balanced you’d only be added once there was a second person in queue to join the other team. We’d get slightly longer queue times, but it would still be massively superior to what is going on now.

Can’t really help it with leavers, but then that’s a problem in Solo Queue too. Just in the form of AFKers.

Lopez.7369:

I’ve been top 200 since my first 10 games, so I doubt I did anyone a disservice.

Keep in mind you’re put into your first match-up with really low MMR. So in my first game, I was playing with terrible people to begin with. And if I had somehow managed to lose even when playing with and fighting against such people, my MMR would have quickly tanked, since MMR is much more volatile during the first 10 matches. The system, in other words, starts in a good place and self-corrects pretty quickly.

An unranked queue system would be fine, but the current hotjoin system is worse than no unranked option. It’s just horribly implemented and even confusing for new players.

That’s why this thread is asking to improve hotjoin. So that we have an unranked option that isn’t a cesspool of exploiting baddies who are only in it for easy wins and free rewards.

I don’t see why you’re opposed to that. Not every new player is going to be magically skilled at PVP like you apparently were. And I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but people tend to become a LOT meaner when their rank could go down because someone on their team doesn’t know what they are doing. It can quickly become a toxic environment for a new player.

Meteor Shower. It’s the only skill in the game that truly makes me feel powerful.

The long cast time. The animation (Mine is a charr so I point to the sky and look like I’m literally PULLING the meteors down in a very tribal shaman kind of way). The death that comes down in many flaming rocks that crash into the ground. The damage output against a group is also incredible. Definitely worth that cast time.

Lopez.7369:

I’ve never done hotjoin. I think people should be forced to hop into the queue right from the start and work up from there.

Then you did a huge disservice to your teammates as you jumped into a competitive game mode with an untested build and no PVP experience in this game outside WvWvW.

There needs to be somewhere you can play unranked SPVP matches so new players can learn the game mode and older players can test new builds. When I make a new build and want to see how it performs I’m certainly not going to take it into a ranked match and risk bringing down my whole team.

Quincy.2198:

It has no priority to make GW2 PvP good by fixing hotjoin. Please.

Except that Hotjoin is every player’s first experience in SPVP.

If they show up and get farmed by people exploiting the system for an hour they are going to leave and never come back. Hotjoin being in the state it’s in is choking the SPVP community and making it almost impossible to grow larger.

Today’s noobs are tomorrow’s veterans. Their early experience with SPVP is a lot more important to the game mode’s well being than people seem willing to believe.

This is a terrible idea. This isn’t a MOBA with hundreds of possible characters that I can pick from on a whim. This is an MMORPG. I don’t know if you know this, but RPG means Role Playing Game. That means we make a character, work on it to make it strong and fit our playstyle, and then play with it in the role we choose.

I play an elementalist. I use a staff. If you ban my staff I now have to use daggers which is a WILDLY different playstyle and fills an entirely different role from what I intended to play. I no longer can fill the role of a ranged nuker. So what am I suppose to do? If this WAS a MOBA, then I could just switch from one ranged hero to another. But it isn’t and I can’t, because I don’t have another profession that can fill that role. I could go Longbow Ranger and spam Arrow Volley I guess, but it’s not anywhere near as effective as meteor shower and the longbow is all single target ranged damage where I wanted to play AoE. And what if the only professions I have on my account is elementalist, thief, and guardian? I’m screwed. I have to change to a different role for the battle. This might not be a problem, except that in this game mode the word TEAM is right in it’s name.

So I can’t play my role as ranged nuker that my teammates built their own composition around. That means that I have to play a role I didn’t want to play and now they must all shift in their roles to accommodate the new team strategy.

Me: I can’t do staff anymore. I’m switching to a burst damage dealer with daggers.

Ally 1: But I’m already running thief. We can’t have two.

Me: Sorry but it’s either this or I switch to my guardian and we already have one of those.

Ally 1: Fine, I guess I’ll go condi necro.

Ally 2: But we really need you as a thief. You’re way better at that playstyle than him.

Me: Sorry, but I have nothing else unless I go bunker ele, and we don’t need a third bunker here.

Ally 3: I HOPE YOU ALL DIE YOU (%#$&$#(%!_%#(^#&(%)^)#^(()^#^&#%##%$#$%$^#%$#$#%^#$%#$!!!!! Flips table in real life

Now everyone shifts their roles around and we have to log off/on and play with our builds until we come up with something passable. No one is playing the role they actually enjoy and no one enjoys the match.

GW2 is as much about the team composition as the individual builds. Changing one forces a shift in the rest, unlike in a MOBA where most people are largely in their own lanes for most of the fight and so synergy between champions isn’t nearly as important.

In order to protect small scale roaming from just being about who brought the most guards, I’d limit this to only be applicable within a tower or keep. Mostly to make keep defense easier. At the moment it’s almost more difficult to defend a tower than take it. Between all the AoE spam and the chance of getting plucked off the walls you just can’t do much in a siege defense without an arrow cart. Being able to reinforce a tower with extra archers on the wall would at least make invasions a bit harder.

Especially if guards were capable of body blocking. Put two or three along the stairs to stop people from literally running past all opposition to take out the lord. Set up archers around the walls to pelt attackers with arrows. You’d be able to hold off a much larger force of enemies with much fewer allies and make defense less utterly hopeless.

I like it. I’ve long been hoping Anet would give us at least ONE more skill from our pets to really make pets something spectacular. Though I might’ve just moved pet swap to F5 for the extra skill spot, this definitely works as well.

I also like that you went with the poison field for the spiders over the immobilize. While having control over that immobilize would be much more useful, I acknowledge that it’d make the jungle spider crazy overpowered. Two immobilizes on one pet is too much.

One other change I’d make though. Have the F2 skill for the pigs send the item directly to the ranger’s hand. If the ranger chooses they can drop it on the floor for someone else to use. This would make the ranger’s use of that skill much more fluid, let them use the item much quicker, and prevent the item from getting stolen and ruining the ranger’s strategy.

In order for AI to effectively deal damage passively they do need input from the player. Yes, they attack automatically, but the AI in this game is pathetic. Just moving drops their damage output considerably. If an AI heavy build really wants to capitalize on that damage output they need to bait the opponent into their AI and hit them with slow effects and crowd control for the AI to maximize it’s damage. Unless you’ve elected to stand still and let the AI swarm you the AI aren’t doing considerable damage. Not more than a good condition user at any rate, who also have the luxury of building tanky while maintaining good sustain.

At the end of the day though, I just find these complaints ridiculous. There aren’t any heavy AI builds at the highest level of play for very good reasons. The builds, even when used by an extremely skilled player, don’t stand up well to anyone with a lot of cleaving and AoE damage, which most professions have at least a little access to. Yes the minions do absorb AoE damage, but that honestly is a good thing. In a team fight of 3v3 if a meteor shower is cast and only does minimal damage to the actual players but completely wipes out the necromancer’s minions the fight is now effectively 2 1/2v3. The necromancer is crippled as it doesn’t have it’s main source of damage, doesn’t have any stunbreakers as they gave those up for damage, no utility, and no team support options. As a staff ele player I can say that destroying necromancer minions isn’t detrimental to my contribution to the team. It actually ensures that my AoE will completely ruin one of the enemy builds to the point of being dead weight for the team. Mesmer clones also eat my AoE though, and unlike necromancer minions those can be back within the minute.

Ultimately this boils down to people complaining when they lose to a build that isn’t viable at high end play and claiming those running said builds have no skill. That doesn’t add up to me. If they aren’t using a high end build and still beat you on your own high end build, wouldn’t that mean you got out played? Or something about builds countering builds which we are all completely familiar with and shouldn’t be getting this upset about.

In terms of which AI builds are the best in all around design I’d probably rank it something like this. At least in terms of making sure the player is the source of strategy in the relationship.

Best Designed: BM Ranger

Well Designed: Shatter Mesmer, MM Necro, Spirit Weapon Guardian.

Poorly Designed: Turret Engineer.

Terribly Designed: Condi-spam PU mesmer.

Good AI Appearing in Non-AI Builds: Elementalist Elementals (With patch), Any Kind of Ranger pet.

Awful AI Appearing in Non-AI Builds: Thieves Guild Thieves, That frickin’ Rock Dog, Pirate Parrot, Rune of the Flock Birds.

Not Even an AI Build: Spirit Ranger.

Edit: Totally forgot about other rangers in my list.

Lifestealer.4910:

a full signet warrior doesn’t exist in pvp though, this is what all AI build needs to be at, not viable for pvp. Unless they can find a way to remove its passive power either giving player more direct control and have it do less things by itself then there is no reason these build should exist.

That is exactly what this buff to spirit weapons did. It decreased the rather steep penalty of using spirit weapon active abilities as well as improved those active abilities to encourage more active play from the player. No heavy AI build except perhaps turret engineers just send their AI in and then stop playing. They still have to utilize their weapon skills and time their AI’s active abilities properly to get the most out of the build, no different than any other active style of play.

I can’t for the life of me figure out what makes a full signet warrior build more active than an MM Necromancer or the soon to be Spirit Weapon Guardian.

The warrior fills their bar with signets. The warrior then gets all kinds of goodies to make them stronger and never have to click those skills again until they need whatever temporary passive goodies they want from them. Signet warrior even gets to HEAL passively.

Meanwhile the AI builds make the same sacrifice for their AI minions. They lose utility slots that otherwise could have been for vital stunbreaks, of which some signets are, and now have to track 1-3 other entities on the map and try and time the use of each minion’s active ability to chain control/burst the intended target AND have to deal with the hard counter of having said AI destroyed, rendering the entire build useless.

The change here actually encourages guardians to play more actively with their AI as it won’t be a one time use before losing the utility skill. Adding more control over the AI already in the game isn’t adding more AI dependency to the game, it’s making the AI properly dependent on the player. That’s a good thing.

My trapper ranger’s jungle spider Greagoir and marsh drake Keallach. They are his babies. The spider’s immobilize has been a huge benefit to keeping people in the traps and the marsh drake’s poison breath has just fun to use. On the rare occasion I get him to use his blast finisher in my healing spring I always wish I could give him a drake treat for his good work. Really, I just love all the drakes. They are probably my favorite pets in both visual design and abilities.

On my BM ranger I started off with the usual raven/wolf combo, but I’ve come to enjoy the extra regen and heal from the sylvan hound as well. Traited the sylvan hound still causes cripple and so is a decent crowd control, but it also improves my sustain which I like.

Shockwave.1230:

A player has to position himself to land auto attacks. I don’t know of Pvpers that have auto auto attacks enabled so that’s news to me if people still do that. The other difference is the number of damage sources. Glass builds need to use dodges to avoid imminent high auto attack damage, which minions have on top of the necro attacks, which don’t crit but have high power. Plus the necro has 2 health bars, both of which are high health and high toughness.

You just can’t deal 40k damage as a thief to something with high toughness before you go down to auto attacks from the AI. It’s also a super long fight kittenter if you choose to take it.

Yah, players still use auto attack. I know I do. It’s annoying to have to keep mashing the 1 key over and over and throws off my usual rhythm. The exception of course being when I use a ranger sword. You can’t auto attack with that thing if you plan to ever survive an enemy counter attack.

The big issue with AI auto attack is that… the AI is stupid. Like, really really stupid. Generally speaking they aren’t going to be hitting you very often if you’re even remotely good at continuously moving. My BM ranger usually has to stand still to lure the enemy into stopping so my raven’s high burst can actually land. This has been the death of many a thief as they think “Oh gee look at this dumb guy he’s not even trying to kite!” just to get hit by 6-8K damage worth of feathers and hate. Shade there continuously mentioned having to cripple, chill, and immobilize his opponent so the minions can actually land their hits. That’s where the skill of playing an AI heavy build comes in. You have to slow the enemy down enough so that the AI can actually hit them.

Just because the damage isn’t coming directly from the player doesn’t make it an easy, noob friendly set up. In fact my experience has been quite the opposite. Because the player has to actively work against his own AI’s innate mental deficiencies it can be much harder to land that AI burst than it is to just go power ranger and hit someone with Maul.

The last bit of your response seems like it’s just a case of your scissors meeting it’s rock. It makes sense that a super glassy profession that heavily relies on his opponent not being able to follow his every move would find it difficult to take on a profession that has automated sentries as one of it’s class features. However, just as the AI builds are your kryptonite, you are the kryptonite of my low armor, low health ranged nuker. And in turn my ranged nuker is a nightmare for Shade’s MM necromancer.

Shockwave.1230:

You interrupting cluster spam doesn’t change that the thief is dying from AI auto attacks.

I’m curious. What’s the difference between an AI hitting you with auto attacks and a player hitting you with auto attacks?

I don’t know if you’ve realized this, but… Auto attacks fire themselves. Automatically. It’s what they do. They also will always be aimed in your general direction so long as the player is facing you.

All the player has to do is hit 1 and the attacks start coming of their own accord. If I’m playing my elementalist I’ll also be hitting you for 2-3K damage a fireball, which is a lot more than Mr. Minion Master is putting out with his minions alone.

They will add a Belcher’s Bluff opponent in every keep and tower.

Shockwave.1230:

How is this different than missing a Warrior rushing into a team fight and getting eviscerated? Or missing a Ranger pull up to a team fight and quickness rapid fire you? Or missing a dps guardian who teleports into a fight?

The difference is none if you miss them all happening.

In all my time playing pvp I’ve never had any of that instantly down me.

The warrior rush I’ll see BLAST onto my screen and thus have a fraction of a second to get a dodge off before it connects. Same for a ranger rapid fire. There’s also audio give aways that I can listen to if I’m not already actively battling someone. And… DPS guardian? I think I’ve seen one of those in my entire time playing this game.

Yes, a thief catching you unaware from stealth is different from the above methods. I’m not arguing that it’s overpowered or that it needs to be nerfed. I’m just saying that it’s incredibly frustrating, and that for me there’s nothing more annoying to deal with in this game. Thieves give me the same feeling that AI builds give you.

Shockwave.1230:

You can’t see the player when they’re invisible, but you can see the burst attempt coming and avoid it because you can always see someone going into stealth.

Unless I magically gain the ability to see in a 360 degree range around me, no. I can’t ALWAYS see them enter stealth. That is what makes a backstab thief so incredibly frustrating. 90% of the time you’re not even aware that one is in the vicinity before you’re stunned by basilisk’s venom and have lost a huge chunk of health.

Bare in mind I can and do fight and beat thieves. I actually took the time to play a thief for a little while and figure out how the initiative system works so that I could better predict the thief’s moves. It totally worked, but I can still be caught off guard by one if they are crafty enough to get within sneakin’ range of me when my back is turned.

Shockwave.1230:

I have no issue with stealth burst. You can always see it coming and can avoid the burst.

I find the fact you claim you can always see an invisible attack coming hilarious.

No, you can’t. That’s the entire point. If you’re mid-transport or already engaged and don’t see the thief before he enters stealth, which if he’s a good thief at all you won’t because he’ll come at you from an angle you’re likely not looking at, you are going to be hit by an attack you did not know was coming.

Now if you do manage to see his attack coming, sure. You know what to anticipate. But to say that you can ALWAYS see an invisible opponent coming at you is just incorrect.

Know what you can always see coming though? A huge mob of deformed zombie monsters barreling down at you or sitting on a point. If you see an MM necromancer, or even a turret engineer, you immediately know exactly what is about to happen.

It really does seem like you don’t like heavy AI builds because they counter your playstyle. As a ranged nuker thieves are the hard-counter to my playstyle as well. Most builds do, and probably should, have something that gives them a hard time.

Shockwave.1230:

I don’t care what build I fight against, as long as it’s a player doing the fighting.

Builds with 3+ AI that apply so much pressure on their own that the AI build hard counters builds like Shatter or D/P is stupid. There’s no reason builds should have so much passive pressure that they hard counter other builds.

So you’re absolutely fine when a burst profession comes out of invisibility and hits you for more health than you have, completely circumventing the fight and claiming a win? Or perhaps a profession that constantly fades in and out of visibility or spams blinds so half your attacks don’t hit?

Personally, I get very frustrated when I fight anything that forces me to keep mashing the target button because my target gets dropped every few seconds. Even now that I’m fairly good at countering that playstyle it still gets on my nerves. But hey, different strokes right? If we start removing entire playstyles just because they annoy different people we won’t even have a game to play anymore.

AI builds at least can be hard countered pretty well when exposed to heavy AoE damage. The well designed AI builds also still need player guidance to be effective, and those of us using AI builds would very much like MORE control over it. It’s not you being killed by PVE, it’s you being killed by the mechanics of your opponent, just like if you had gotten off your shatter on someone or blinded someone until dead.

Once again everything Shadelang said is true.

MM Necromancers aren’t overly annoying aside from screen clutter. When I meet one as my staff elementalist I mostly just grin as I imagine his soon to come despair at having seen all his minions burn to ashes around him.

I’ve out dueled turret engineers on my BM ranger a couple times. The turrets are annoying at most, but I’m tanky enough to shrug off their damage and even if the net turret immobilizes me my raven is still in the engineer’s face hitting him for 2K an auto attack. My elementalist… Just nuke the whole area. Good bye turrets.

But no matter what I play thieves are still frustrating to fight, even when I win. Hammer warriors and bomb engineers smacking me around is just plain aggravating. Terrormancer… That gives me flashbacks to World of Warcraft back when warlocks were severely overpowered and could kill you with fear and DoT spam before you got control of your character back. The horror…

There are a lot of builds that are very aggravating to fight, but that doesn’t mean they all have to disappear forever.

Lifestealer.4910:

The OP asked ANETS stance on the current implementations of AI builds and community voiced their stance. I for one dislike the AI builds that are in the game atm because of the passive nature of the AI which is perfectly in line with the topic of this thread. You are however proposing a change to AI builds which is completely different.

You also said you’ve played turret engineer and spirit ranger, which others have mentioned as being some of the worst AI focused builds in terms of needing skill to play, which is what people are having an issue with.

A minion master necromancer needs to time their minion skills properly to really excel at the build, which requires timing and patience just like any other crowd control heavy build. Well, except hammer/mace&shield warriors who seem to just spam crowd control until you die, anyway. Generally if I do die to a minion master necromancer it’s because I ate his flesh golem’s charge right in the face, which is me making a mistake not him abusing his AI. It was his command, after all.

My main experience with AI builds is as a Beastmaster ranger. I’ve gone this route because I really dislike spirits. Mostly because they aren’t even AI minions. They’re literally just a different kind of banner. On top of that their active effects are almost useless due to the oddly small area of effect considering how long it takes to set a spirit up in a spot and how hard it is to bait your opponent to them. Just… A really bad pay-off. Spirits are only really good as group support.

My BM however has been a lot of fun. My old ranger main was a trapper and I almost completely ignored my pet, but since playing as a BM ranger I’ve had to learn to micromanage my pet to get off their F2 skills at precisely the right time and to really make use of the “Come to me” and “attack” buttons to make sure the pet stays alive WHILE I am fighting off people in melee with my greatsword. Once I made the pet the cornerstone of my build I had to start learning to split my attention between the two and learn to control the pet and myself simultaneously, and it’s actually greatly improved my ability to play my original trapper build as well.

I’ve had my BM build called “cheese” before though. Usually from people I’ve beaten who insist I’m just getting carried by my raven’s damage and don’t consider that I had been carefully switching my raven out for my sylvan hound periodically to make sure the raven doesn’t go down to the enemy’s re-targeted burst while at the same time performing dodges and blocks as needed to keep myself alive. Admittedly my pet does do a lot of damage while I can build pretty tanky to fulfill a bunker/support roll on my own, but that doesn’t mean I’m not still playing actively and often aggressively to make sure my opponent goes down fast and my pet doesn’t get crushed.

In other AI related news, elementalists are finally getting control over our elementals. I am extremely happy about this. We’ll finally have the same level of control over our AIs as necromancers enjoy.

Lifestealer.4910:

That isn’t the main thing being discussed though. The OP is talking about how the current AI implementation affects pvp. If you want to have AI be more player controlled which i will fully support, it will be another thread.

Actually the OP is asking what the communities thoughts on AI builds are. He didn’t ask how AI is effecting PVP, only how the players and the Anet staff feel about the existence of AI builds. Others came here to explain their views on the builds and to talk about the more skillful implementations of the playstyle, and how they’d like to see the AI builds reflect that playstyle more accurately.

You’re the one who is basically calling everyone who voiced enjoyment for that playstyle bad players, which is a good way to completely derail the thread and turn it into an argument about what constitutes “Skillful play”.

Lifestealer.4910:

and i am not really surprised really that looking through some of these AI lovers post that they are mostly turret engi players. You can tell which players failed to play the real engi build aka kits because of the skill required and instead they cling on to AI builds as crutch.

My main is a staff elementalist. Your comment holds no weight on me whatsoever given I’m playing one of the highest skill floor professions in the game.

And you ignored the people telling you that turret engineers aren’t an example of a good AI build. They are effective, yes, but they don’t fill the same roll we’re talking about when we talk about playing an AI control build. We don’t want to drop the AI and let it auto attack until our enemies die, we want to be able to actively control our minions so we can use them to the highest level of our ability.

If I could run Signet of Air for the movement speed without dropping one of my ABSOLUTELY VITAL cantrips I’d do it in a heart beat. No elite has a consistent use to me.

I’d also definitely consider Mist Form to have a four cantrip build. Imagine the survivability!

Or Cleansing Fire for a little extra condi-cleansing when I’m dealing with necromancers since right now I have to run with fairly little condi-clear due to my offensive build. I was so sad when it stopped being a stun breaker because I need three stun breakers to stay alive.

Oh! Or Arcane Wave for an extra blast finisher!

It’d open up so many possibilities.

Lifestealer.4910:

I like how people are trying to explain AI builds as if they require skills to manage and play LOL. No seriously, i have played turret engineer, spirit ranger etc.. I haven’t tried minion mancer but there is literally no skill involved in these builds, its all passive, all you need to do is focus on staying alive which isn’t an issue since you can go the tankiest amulet with all defensive traits allowing you screw up a ton.

Amusingly you say this while admitting that you haven’t played the only actual AI focused build. Spirit ranger isn’t an AI build. The spirits do absolutely nothing but stand there and provide buffs. I’ve never played an engineer so I can’t comment on that.

LughLongArm.5460:

The medic Ranger(post patch). your job on the battlefield is to stay alive and revive other ppl asap, even if u’ll get down it wont be for notnig and will have long down duration. your pet will take part in the action, having aoe cc ability to get foes away from the the down ally and revive him asap. you have 3 sources of stability, and prema stability for your pet so you wont get interupted while reviving. You also have 2 sources of quickness to revive even faster.
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fNAQRBHPxG2IjK9sWxiJLctGoSoaGAPw7eIF2YnXQGUxcVA-T1xHAB0pEs2nAQrq/gy+DHp8DgTCAa6HIFgcKjA-w

Not bad, but personally I’d take 2 out of Wilderness Survival and put it in Skirmishing. Protection on dodge roll is great, but this way when you revive an ally you also get to leave a spike trap to help deter people from the stomp. Plus this way when your ally gets up you’ll both have swiftness and your enemies will be crippled so you can both get some distance. The switch to Skirmishing also gives you Swiftness on weapon swap so you can get to your allies that much faster.

I’d also go for Invigorating Bond over Zephyr’s Speed. Less quickness, but your pet’s F2 skills have a pretty nice heal attached to them so as you Crowd Control the enemies with fear and stuns you’re also healing yourself and allies.

Yep. This build will make standing support obsolete. Everyone knows the real game happens on your back!

Everything Shadelang said and more. I love playing “AI builds” because it falls directly into my playstyle.

I’ve always favored minion heavy professions. In GW1 my main character was a ritualist/necromancer. That is the epitome of an AI build. I had necromancer minions on the front lines and a few damaging spirits by me to support them with ranged barrages. Was I unskilled because I relied on the AI to do the damage? I don’t think so, considering it was still up to me to find the best strategic locations to take control of and to make quick decisions considering what spirits to lay down and when it was okay to sacrifice some minions if it meant letting my teammates get an advantage.

It’s a different kind of skilled play. Sure, it’s more forgiving on those who don’t have super twitchy reflexes and quick reaction time, but it also requires a level of tactical intelligence that is just as prominent as any other build. In some ways more so.

We don’t need to remove AI heavy builds from the game. Quite the opposite. We need to increase the player’s control over their AI and improve the AI’s responsiveness to player commands to allow AI builds to focus more on the player’s tactical ability and less on chance and automated movement. I’d like to see necromancers able to choose what targets specific minions focus on and where their minions decide to set up shop and defend. I’d like to see rangers be able to tell their pets exactly when to use all their skills and not rely entirely on when the AI decides to use them. Ranger spirits could also be more responsive. Honestly they were kind of a let down to me when I realize they were just destructible boon factories.

As the player gets more control we can start toning the AI themselves to ensure a more balanced playstyle, but we certainly shouldn’t remove it entirely.

I’d definitely support it curing conditions. I find it slightly annoying that to survive against pretty much any condi user I need to run at least one of two grandmaster traits to keep from drowning in DoT ticks.

Reviving the pet is also good, though that’s something I feel should be baseline for us as a profession. Either let our heals revive a downed pet or let us revive our pet like you would any player, except on a much, much shorter revive bar.

Shield would fit thematically pretty well, yah. Especially a nice oak shield or buckler. Rangers are survivalists, and the shield is the ultimate survival tool on a battlefield.

Mechanically it’d also be a nice defensive off-hand that could help us improve our staying power even more. Might be nice for a bunker build or to keep the support ranger alive.