Guild Wars 2

Kain Francois.4328:

PsiNorm.3652:

I think magic find on gear should be handled with utility infusion slots. Gear would have their stats, a slot for the sigil of your choice, and an infusion slot like the utility slot on ascended items where you can choose mf, or more gold, or more karma. I like the idea of choosing what to boost.
Perhaps there is a mystic forge recipe to add this slot to armor pieces, or a quest that opens an npc that will add it for a fee.
Existing mf gear could be exchanged for same level gear of another stat breakdown.

This.

Seriously, infusions open up a lot of possibilities. We could totally split conomy-stats from buid-stats.

This is the one thing Ascended gear could do right.

It’s not a bad suggestion, my main issue is that I actually like the variety that Traveler’s and Explorer’s gear provides and making this change would be a pretty dramatic overhaul to the current itemization system and would likely tee off a lot of players.

Mirta.5029:

PsiNorm.3652:

I think magic find on gear should be handled with utility infusion slots. Gear would have their stats, a slot for the sigil of your choice, and an infusion slot like the utility slot on ascended items where you can choose mf, or more gold, or more karma. I like the idea of choosing what to boost.
Perhaps there is a mystic forge recipe to add this slot to armor pieces, or a quest that opens an npc that will add it for a fee.
Existing mf gear could be exchanged for same level gear of another stat breakdown.

we pretty much decided on this on page 3
Ein keeps on complaining though for pages that an average would be better because he wants to leech off people.

Because you aren’t leeching off peoples’ power builds while running MF, lol. A simpleton could figure this out but sharing /= leeching. Everyone is supporting each other in a party, except people running MF.

BTW, I’d be one of the people running MF if it was shared with the group.

I’m very, very happy they’re doing something with Southsun Cove and aren’t just going to let it rot as a substandard zone.

Szamsziel.5627:

Does Gold Bonus Find should be also shared? Karma Bonus? Experience one? All are selfish though.

Actually sharing is not fair. You have taken your point to have most damage dealing build – good for you. But now you want to leach additional stats from other group members (MF). Someone created MF build. Fair enough. Now there is binary statement – do you want to play with him in a group – No – leave the party or kick him. Yes – no complaining here.

I’ve seen the best solution proposed earlier – add special slots for Karma/Exp/Gold/MF boosts. Then you will be able to define what you want. Anet may also add : Crafting materials boost, Mining chance boost and so on.

And one more thing – you are complaining about Explorer set. I do not see a point here. It gives you 18% to MF. 5 runes (Noble, Traveler, Pirate) gives you 50%.
So question : are you fine with Full berserker with Pirate runes?

Armor stats are one thing. Runes and your jevelry set is other.

…. This argument, again, is so nonsensical I don’t even know how to address it. If I build for Power, I’m taking advantage of other peoples’ MF. If I build for MF, I’m taking advantage of other peoples’ power. EXACTLY LIKE IT SHOULD WORK. I’m at a total loss how so many people don’t grasp this.

None of those other things are ‘selfish’ in the same way MF is. Never mind the fact that in groups usually players get the same Karma at the same time, why would Karma, etc. be shared when you aren’t making sacrifices detrimental to your group to get them?

MF is not equivalent to Karma, Gold, or Exp; it is equivalent to Power, Precision, Vitality, etc. The first three have nothing to do with group performance and therefore don’t need to be pooled or shared.

This is just hilarious, really, hysterical.

madgod.7421:

Im not much of a numbers person but Ive seen plenty of posts to know many of you are. Can anyone quantify how much a player is sacrificing if they use Explorer’s armor over another set? So how much damage does a player “lose” by taking Explorers over Bersekers and Rampagers armor?

Please give min./max. if possible — i.e. dont just quote a number which assumes 25 stacks of every possible condition or assumes youre getting nonstop crits., I also want to know what is “lost” if the mob(s) are removing the conditions your stacking as fast as your applying them/your luck is lousy and you just arent getting any crits that day (or if youre just getting into high level stuff and are still working toward a full set of prec. gear and thus have a super low crit chance %).

TL;DR — How much extra cond./crit. damage is being “lost” by not having the extra 16% crit. dmg./224pts of cond. dmg. (min. and max. numbers please).

I couldn’t say exactly, but it’s actually not that important. The important part is that MF is totally unique in being an entirely selfish stat that you have to sacrifice group-beneficial stats to get, and that’s a conceptual problem from a game design perspective regardless of what practical effect it may or may not have in-game (which will vary).

But the choice remains interesting for individual players, so removing it altogether is not a good option. The proper fix for this conceptual problem is to make MF a stat that benefits the group like every other stat does by averaging it out across a party.

Pandemoniac.4739:

Szamsziel.5627:

Wanna bet?
1 player has 50%. 1 has 40%, 1 has 30% and one have 5%. The last one have x%. If x=0 then sum is 50+40+30+5 = 125. So on average 125/5 = 25%. 1st player before share was 50%, after is 25%. – cut in half

I said “cut in half” as an example, not as a calculation of every possible team make up, and I was talking about my personal MF not the team’s MF.

Let’s look at the median versus average
50%, 40%, 30%, 5%, 0% -> median is 30%, average is 25%
50%, 30%, 30%, 30%, 0% -> median is 30%, average is 28%
50%, 10%, 10%, 10%, 10% -> median is 10%, average is 18%
50%, 50%, 50%, 50%, 0% -> median is 50%, average is 40%

If you use the average, players with no MF drag down the player(s) with a lot of MF. You can not convince me that one player without MF on their gear can make up for 10% of 4 other players. Folks without MF will just be taking advantage of folks with a lot of MF.

Drops are not shared among the team, so MF should not be shared among the team. If someone on your PUG isn’t pulling their weight for whatever reason, replace them after the run. Most of the time, the reason I didn’t want to be on a team with folks that has absolutely nothing to do with their gear or how much MF is on it.

You explicitly stated that one player in a group of 5 could reduce your MF by half, which is mathematically impossible.

Regardless, if you use the average, players with lower MF ‘drag down’ the players with higher MF in the exact same way that players with lower combat stats ‘drag down’ players with higher combat stats. They would be ‘taking advantage’ of your MF in the exact same way you would be ‘taking advantage’ of their superior combat prowess.

This is exactly how it should work. I really am running out of ways to make it more clear.

Szamsziel.5627:

Actually – the only way to make it fair it would be to have the same drops for all. No RNG. If anyone get Lodestone – every player in team get Lodestone also. So I’d rather would suggest to have highest MF for the group. And MF geared is also contributing by increasing chances for items. Sharing (average) seems to be not fair – For example explorer set power is 2/3 of Berserker power. So only 2/3 of MF should be put into shared pool (if you want to have even). Fair <> even.

Edit : Pandemoniac quote: " If someone on your PUG isn’t pulling their weight for whatever reason, replace them after the run. Most of the time, the reason I didn’t want to be on a team with folks that has absolutely nothing to do with their gear or how much MF is on it." How can I add +500 kudos for that statement!

No, that would not fix the problem. You’d only benefit from one person’s MF score and anyone else wearing it would be just as detrimental to the group as they are currently. I frankly can’t even follow the logic in your first paragraph.

I’m just shaking my head at this conversation at this point. It’s like the most obvious solution ever and people just keep dancing in circles around it in a seemingly desperate attempt to avoid admitting they were wrong.

Szamsziel.5627:

Wanna bet?
1 player has 50%. 1 has 40%, 1 has 30% and one have 5%. The last one have x%. If x=0 then sum is 50+40+30+5 = 125. So on average 125/5 = 25%. 1st player before share was 50%, after is 25%. – cut in half

That’s not the same thing he was saying. He was saying that the party’s MF would be cut by 50% for one person not wearing MF, which isn’t mathematically possible.

The situation above is fair because the person with more MF is also benefiting from the superior combat stats of the other players with less MF and it equalizes fairly well.

Pandemoniac.4739:

Einlanzer.1627:

Pandemoniac.4739:

If you use an average, then won’t you run into the opposite problem of folks with no MF getting kicked because they’re bringing the group down?

I wouldn’t think so, because without MF you are more potent in combat. It’s a tradeoff. You’d run into a few elitist pricks I’m sure, but I don’t think it’d be any more prevalent than berserker gear for sure.

I for one think it’s an interesting choice and I’d hate to see it removed.

So do you think that one person without MF is “potent” enough to make up for a 50% loss in MF for 4 other people? We’re not playing the same game if you think gear has that big of an effect. The group I play with can carry one player through a dungeon, but there is no way I’m going to have my MF cut in half for one other player who claims to be so uber that they can generate enough drops to make up for a 50% loss of MF for 4 other decent players. And I’m not elitist at all, that’s just not fair.

Averaging is not the best way to get what you’re after. That will just encourage folks to look for players with the same amount of MF to be more efficient. At least suggest using the median instead of the mean.

Do you people seriously not understand how averages work? I feel like that’s why you keep arguing so staunchly. Using the median instead of the mean makes no sense at all.

There’s no way one player in a group of 5 could cut your MF in half. If 4 people have 100% MF and 1 person has 0%, then the group’s effective MF would be 80%. In a group of 5, 20% is the maximum amount that any one player can affect your MF.

This conversation continues to astonish me. I’m really not trying to be haughty here – I just know what I’m talking about. Spreading MF to a group as an average is the best way to go. It’s quick, it’s fair, it’s balanced, and it doesn’t involve any massive overhauls to current itemization, etc. So far every argument put forth against it is rooted in either misconception or bad logic.

The MF elitism argument is the only one that holds even a shred of merit, and I don’t believe it’ll be any bigger a problem than current gear elitism, which there’s really no way to get rid of totally.

Pandemoniac.4739:

Einlanzer.1627:

Nay, it’s an average so everyone always contributes. A party with 5 people running 50% MF has a party MF of 50%. A party of 5 with only 1 person running 50% has a party MF of 10% but better overall combat potency.

If you use an average, then won’t you run into the opposite problem of folks with no MF getting kicked because they’re bringing the group down?

Group sharing of MF from gear is a bad idea. Take the MF off the gear and make it a stacking buff you earn by killing challenging mobs. The faster you can take on challenging content, the quicker you reach the MF cap, and the more mobs you kill with max MF. Dying resets your personal buff stack back to zero. No need to sacrifice effectiveness or have multiple sets of gear. Good teams/players get rewarded, and you don’t need to farm gold/laurels/karma/whatever to buy a decent set of MF gear.

I wouldn’t think so, because without MF you are more potent in combat. It’s a tradeoff. You’d run into a few elitist pricks I’m sure, but I don’t think it’d be any more prevalent than berserker gear for sure.

I for one think it’s an interesting choice and I’d hate to see it removed.

rfdarko.4639:

Einlanzer.1627:

Nay, it’s an average so everyone always contributes. A party with 5 people running 50% MF has a party MF of 50%. A party of 5 with only 1 person running 50% has a party MF of 10% but better overall combat potency.

Ah, I see, your right. I still think MF is just a bad stat in dungeons, but I think it’s a subjective enough point that player freedom would be a more important consideration then deciding (rightly ) for all players that MF isn’t useful in dungeons. If averaged magic find was applied only in dungeons/fractals, where your always in a 5 man party and thus always sharing the MF, I’d probably be ok with that.

It’s essentially rooted in the notion that you’re always supporting each other in a group, even if indirectly, regardless of the composition of builds, etc. You benefit as much from teaming with the high DPS berserker warrior as he does teaming with you for your MF gear, and vice versa.

I’m very confident that it’s the best solution at least in terms of practical solutions.

Julie Yann.5379:

Personally I don’t like the idea of sharing MF with the group. How selfish of you to leech off of my stats that I worked hard to get. If you want MF get your own MF gear. I do like the infusion idea. I would gladly recycle/sell my current MF gear to be able to infuse my normal gear (or have a merchant exchange MF gear for equivialnt MF infusions). I also like the idea of unlocking traits similar to WXP in order to get MF. This would be the best way to go since those stats would be independent of whatever armor I choose to wear so if I change my build I don’t have to worry losing my MF.

Um.. aren’t you leeching off of their combat stats? Seriously, what is with you people? I seriously fail to get how this is so difficult to grasp.

rfdarko.4639:

Einlanzer.1627:

Of the two, the average is without question the way to go. The argument you’re making against an average here is the same one Mirta was making, but my point was that you aren’t really losing out on the MF you paid for. Your MF would be lower and would be conveyed to the group, but you are also benefiting from the relatively higher combat potency of your party members.

In other words, it’s a mutual benefit. You can’t clear a dungeon on your own, you do it as a group. You are sharing your MF with the group while they are helping support you with combat aptitude. There’s a tradeoff both ways. That’s why I remain unconvinced that it isn’t the best solution.

I can see how that would give you a more decent trade off, however, the averages idea has the same sort of problem that picking the highest buff does – redundancy. A party with 5 people running 50% magic find has no benefit over a party with 1 person running 50% mf, and they are doing significantly less damage. With coordination, MF could be made useful, but I think the average pug group would often encounter MF redundancy.

Nay, it’s an average so everyone always contributes. A party with 5 people running 50% MF has a party MF of 50%. A party of 5 with only 1 person running 50% has a party MF of 10% but better overall combat potency.

rfdarko.4639:

Einlanzer.1627:

I’m not talking about an AoE, only sharing in parties. I totally get what you’re saying, but I think it’s a bit of a subjective conclusion. I think there are lot of folks who would argue that it would be beneficial to run MF in dungeons just for more/better loot in general considering the handicap from MF gear isn’t tremendous, which is also a subjective conclusion.

In other words, I think the fact that it’s up for debate gives merit to the idea of it working as dungeon stat this way. But, I was just curious what you had to say on the matter.

If we use an average, some players would be loosing out on MF they payed for. Obviously we don’t want the bonuses to stack, but if the highest MF % is picked then anyone else running MF in the group has a literally useless stat.

Of the two, the average is without question the way to go. The argument you’re making against an average here is the same one Mirta was making, but my point was that you aren’t really losing out on the MF you paid for. Your MF would be lower and would be conveyed to the group, but you are also benefiting from the relatively higher combat potency of your party members.

In other words, it’s a mutual benefit. You can’t clear a dungeon on your own, you do it as a group. You are sharing your MF with the group while they are helping support you with combat aptitude. There’s a tradeoff both ways. That’s why I remain unconvinced that it isn’t the best solution.

rfdarko.4639:

Einlanzer.1627:

rfdarko.4639:

Einlanzer.1627:

rfdarko.4639:

The easiest solution would seem to be disabling magic find in dungeons/fractals. You can run around cursed shore in whites and do just fine – no one in the zerg event train is going to care what you are wearing. There’s just nothing in the overworld that is remotely challenging, and magic find is a small way of incentivizing exploring the map. In dungeons and fractals, the real reward is not in mob drops – its the chests, which aren’t effected by mf. The content is also reasonably challenging for the average player, and with a 5 man group everyone counts. I’ve heard this recommended before, and honestly it seems like the easiest compromise.

I wouldn’t necessarily have a problem with this, except there’s still likely be a large number of people who’d still flippantly wear MF gear into dungeons; and I really think MF has the potential to be an interesting dungeon mechanic without stepping on the toes of everything else.

I agree, it could be, but since dungeon rewards are all about the chests and tokens, mf would probably have to be reworked to be relevant. I like the idea of infusions that are either mf or agony resist, so you could have one normal and one fractals set of armor, but it seems unlikely that anet is just going to delete explorers and travelers gear. The solution I proposed is perhaps not optimal, but its very simple and I think it solves most of the issues people currently have with mf while still giving people who invested in mf most of what they want.

I don’t hate that idea, admittedly, but I’m curious after my flame war with Mirta if you have opposition to the idea of just averaging the MF stat for all players is and, if so, why.

I’m not sure, but I think you are talking about making the MF stat effect the party, or have an aoe effect for people within a certain radius?

I don’t think there’s a problem with that idea per say, but I don’t know if it solves the issue as well. MF works fine in the overworld, imo, and I don’t want or need to share my mf stat with the cursed shore hoard. In terms of dungeons, again, MF is just a bad stat because mob drops don’t really matter. It’s always, always better to kill things quicker and skip everything you can when your talking about maximising loot – which is what MF is about. Even if you could share MF with your group, it doesn’t change the fact that the stat itself has very little purpose in dungeons as they currently function.

I’m not talking about an AoE, only sharing in parties. I totally get what you’re saying, but I think it’s a bit of a subjective conclusion. I think there are lot of folks who would argue that it would be beneficial to run MF in dungeons just for more/better loot in general considering the handicap from MF gear isn’t tremendous, which is also a subjective conclusion.

In other words, I think the fact that it’s up for debate gives merit to the idea of it working as dungeon stat this way. But, I was just curious what you had to say on the matter.

I would argue that because the baseline is lower but the scaling from gear is the same, Thieves get more benefit from +Vit than professions with higher base health.

Considering it’s a good stat combo anyway, I’d argue it might be worthwhile.

It’s a little counterintiutive but if you ask me class is actually the more correct term. Your combat skillset doesn’t necessarily have much to do with your profession, which is more about what you do for a living. Your profession might be a mercenary while your class is a warrior.

The others are really just flavor distinctions. I would say Thief is a specific type of rogue while the Guardian is a bit different from Paladin. The former is, well, a guardian while the latter is more of a crusader.

rfdarko.4639:

Einlanzer.1627:

rfdarko.4639:

The easiest solution would seem to be disabling magic find in dungeons/fractals. You can run around cursed shore in whites and do just fine – no one in the zerg event train is going to care what you are wearing. There’s just nothing in the overworld that is remotely challenging, and magic find is a small way of incentivizing exploring the map. In dungeons and fractals, the real reward is not in mob drops – its the chests, which aren’t effected by mf. The content is also reasonably challenging for the average player, and with a 5 man group everyone counts. I’ve heard this recommended before, and honestly it seems like the easiest compromise.

I wouldn’t necessarily have a problem with this, except there’s still likely be a large number of people who’d still flippantly wear MF gear into dungeons; and I really think MF has the potential to be an interesting dungeon mechanic without stepping on the toes of everything else.

I agree, it could be, but since dungeon rewards are all about the chests and tokens, mf would probably have to be reworked to be relevant. I like the idea of infusions that are either mf or agony resist, so you could have one normal and one fractals set of armor, but it seems unlikely that anet is just going to delete explorers and travelers gear. The solution I proposed is perhaps not optimal, but its very simple and I think it solves most of the issues people currently have with mf while still giving people who invested in mf most of what they want.

I don’t hate that idea, admittedly, but I’m curious after my flame war with Mirta if you have opposition to the idea of just averaging the MF stat for all players is and, if so, why.

rfdarko.4639:

The easiest solution would seem to be disabling magic find in dungeons/fractals. You can run around cursed shore in whites and do just fine – no one in the zerg event train is going to care what you are wearing. There’s just nothing in the overworld that is remotely challenging, and magic find is a small way of incentivizing exploring the map. In dungeons and fractals, the real reward is not in mob drops – its the chests, which aren’t effected by mf. The content is also reasonably challenging for the average player, and with a 5 man group everyone counts. I’ve heard this recommended before, and honestly it seems like the easiest compromise.

I wouldn’t necessarily have a problem with this, except it’s probably a good percentage of people who wear MF into dungeons now that would still flippantly wear it even if it did nothing for them. In other words, it’s likely it wouldn’t fully address the problem people are raising now.

I also really think if it’s balanced right MF has the potential to be an interesting dungeon/party mechanic without stepping on the toes of everything else.

Averaging MF for groups it the way to go

Mirta.5029:

Einlanzer.1627:

No it’s because my arguments are much more sound than yours.

says you.
Plenty of people disagree with your suggestion.
You state that if Anet takes your suggestion over anyone else’s it won’t cause a backlash.
What we see in this thread is already contradicting that sentence.
But continue boasting about how your opinion is more important than others.
Also this:

a.) I’m biased and I enjoy Magic Find as an itemized stat

yes, your arguments are so much better.

The backlash is disproportionately you, and good job isolating the one joking argument (which still has merit because it’s an opinion shared by many) against the backdrop of dozens of serious ones. I don’t feel that your mentality is shared by a significant number of players, mostly because it’s rooted in bad logic. No more responses.

Geotherma.2395:

The last 3 pages are exactly why devs don’t respond to posts and good suggestions get lost in the abyss of the suggestion forums. People will rally together for a fix in 1 thread, then spend 3 pages arguing among themselves making the thread less constructive and no longer worth paying attention to. You are defeating your own purposes here, so when no answer is found to this problem blame yourselves. There is a +1 button for a reason, so that people don’t go off on a tangent why my shiny toy is better than your shiny toy. Vote the good ideas, leave the not so good ones. You are accomplishing nothing with all this back and forth bickering.

Yes, it’s true. Disengaging from an argument is a tremendous exercise of willpower for anybody. kitten pride. I still say the best solution is extremely simple and obvious.

Mirta.5029:

Einlanzer.1627:

Mirta.5029:

Ratty.5176:

Mirta.5029:

so let’s allow the system to be broken and cause problems, because that’s how it’s easier to do? Imagine if work project would be done this way. “I spilled my coffee on this presentation, however it was far easier to wipe the coffee away than to re-print it. If you can’t read what’s hidden behind a stain ask me and I’ll tell you what it was supposed to be”

This is the real world, they only have so many programming hours to use on different parts of the game. In this type of situation you get what are called Time/Effect Graph. A solution that uses a low amount of Time, but has a good effect is better than one that uses a huge amount of Time for a slightly better effect. It’s better to use your time on a group of jobs that give the most overall effect, than on one item. This is how businesses work.

the suggested solution causes so much problems that it’s easiest to leave the whole thing untouched or to solve it properly. If they don’t have enough man power then it’s easier not to fix it. It’s not a bug after all. If they feel charitable they should fix it in a way that won’t enrage the community and hurt their business.

No it doesn’t.

“my opinion matters and yours doesn’t because I said so”

No it’s because my arguments are much more sound than yours.

In theory it could actually be kinda decent. That’s totally presumption though.

Mirta.5029:

Ratty.5176:

Mirta.5029:

so let’s allow the system to be broken and cause problems, because that’s how it’s easier to do? Imagine if work project would be done this way. “I spilled my coffee on this presentation, however it was far easier to wipe the coffee away than to re-print it. If you can’t read what’s hidden behind a stain ask me and I’ll tell you what it was supposed to be”

This is the real world, they only have so many programming hours to use on different parts of the game. In this type of situation you get what are called Time/Effect Graph. A solution that uses a low amount of Time, but has a good effect is better than one that uses a huge amount of Time for a slightly better effect. It’s better to use your time on a group of jobs that give the most overall effect, than on one item. This is how businesses work.

the suggested solution causes so much problems that it’s easiest to leave the whole thing untouched or to solve it properly. If they don’t have enough man power then it’s easier not to fix it. It’s not a bug after all. If they feel charitable they should fix it in a way that won’t enrage the community and hurt their business.

No it doesn’t.

Mirta.5029:

Ratty.5176:

Mirta.5029:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

That other person deliberately sacrificed useful gameplay changing stats for it, and as such is less useful, and is leaning more on the rest of the team to accomplish anything. If they’re going to decrease the group’s effectiveness on purpose then they kitten well should be sharing the results.

please explain to me now why should people have one of their stats kitten instead of following a different idea from page 3, allowing people with mf to chose any kind of different gear set to use instead and make mf a hard to get infusion that you can get in a slot specifically for mf?

Path of least resistance, it would be easier for A-Net to change how MF works, than to recall every piece of gear with the stat in the game.

so let’s allow the system to be broken and cause problems, because that’s how it’s easier to do? Imagine if work project would be done this way. “I spilled my coffee on this presentation, however it was far easier to wipe the coffee away than to re-print it. If you can’t read what’s hidden behind a stain ask me and I’ll tell you what it was supposed to be”

It’s only in your head that it would be broken, therefore the rest of the analogy is irrelevant.

One thing I don’t think you’re really getting is that if MF is averaged across a group, you’re talking about each individual player only contributing very little MF alone. The only way anyone could truly be leeching is if they themselves weren’t wearing any MF and were trying to party up with 4 other players all with MF. In that situation, the MF people would benefit from the non-MF’s combat prowess.

I actually think the reason you’re so opposed to this is because you like rolling MF and being able to enter dungeons being supported by others and benefiting fully from the MF on your own gear. That’s the exact problem with the current implementation.

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Mirta.5029:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

That other person deliberately sacrificed useful gameplay changing stats for it, and as such is less useful, and is leaning more on the rest of the team to accomplish anything. If they’re going to decrease the group’s effectiveness on purpose then they kitten well should be sharing the results.

please explain to me now why should people have one of their stats kitten instead of following a different idea from page 3, allowing people with mf to chose any kind of different gear set to use instead and make mf a hard to get infusion that you can get in a slot specifically for mf?

When did I ever say I have a problem with this? I’m fine with that.
The current implementation is what I have a problem with. There are a number of solutions to do something about the current implementation, all of which remove the selfishness factor, and that’s what I want. Be it sharing or removing (or at least stop replacing useful stuff with it), it’s better than what it currently is.

The reason sharing it is IMO the best option is because a.) I’m biased and I enjoy Magic Find as an itemized stat and b.) it would be the simplest to implement and carries the least risk of causing a lot of backlash.

Paradoxine.8192:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Paradoxine.8192:

Einlanzer.1627:

Mirta.5029:

Einlanzer.1627:

Mirta.5029:

Einlanzer.1627:

Once again, this doesn’t make sense. It’s not unfair for the MF user, because the MF user is benefiting from the superior combat stats of the other party members. The superior combatants are benefiting from the MF character.

By its very definition, dungeoning is a group effort. Not an individual one. You guys are seriously off the mark with this.

if it’s a group effort, then why are you not okay with sharing damage, vitality, toughness and condition damage?
Or is it just that you want to benefit from magic users without actually getting the gear yourself?

Seriously, you are thick. YOU ARE SHARING ALL STATS. It’s a team sport. Just because the stats aren’t literally divided doesn’t mean they aren’t functionally. Good players/builds bring the whole team up, bad ones bring the whole team down.

you don’t benefit from someone else having vitality or toughness, the same way that you don’t benefit from someone having mf. It’s a stat that they have. The same way that you don’t benefit from other’s damage if you’re unable to deliver 10% of it to tag a mob before it dies, therefore getting no loot.

Yes you are. the better they can stay alive the better it is for you. The more damage they do, the faster you kill things as a party regardless of your contribution. If you’re in a group you don’t have to tag a mob to get its loot, only your party does. You benefit from it regardless.

…… I don’t know what else to say to you to drive it home.

Except how useful one party members vitality and toughness stats really are is dependent on player skill and their utilisation of the skills they have. Magic find is a completely passive bonus, affecting loot tables and to have it shared between party members completely flies in the face of ANET’s unique loot table philosophy. Never mind the fact that averaging the MF will encourage “100%+ MF to join” groups.

Why should one players magic find which would usually be +25% suddenly be +5% because he plays with a party?

Uh… HOW would it undermine unique loot tables? You still get unique loot tables.

Are you kidding me?

1. Averaging MF affects the loot tables of each party member.
2. Now there is an incentive for people to only recruit people with X magic find.
3. Your loot is now no longer based solely on what mobs you tag and how much you contribute, but on whether your party members happen to have a passive stat, which they deliberately sacrificed useful gameplay changing stats for.

1. Yes, that’s the idea.
2. It’ll exist I’m sure, but I doubt it’ll dominate the game and will probably be less prevalent than zerker elitism. Not a good enough reason to not do it.
3. Your loot was only ever based on how fast you kill and how good your AoE is, not how much you contribute, which is very nebulous. Again, it’s better than what exists currently where you are hurting your group and benefiting only yourself.

Mirta.5029:

Einlanzer.1627:

Mirta.5029:

Ratty.5176:

Mirta.5029:

if it’s a group effort, then why are you not okay with sharing damage, vitality, toughness and condition damage?
Or is it just that you want to benefit from magic users without actually getting the gear yourself?

But they are sharing their Damage with the rest of the group, they are killing mobs faster. This helps the group.
They are sharing their Condition Duration with the rest of the group, because there conditions are more useful the team enemy move slower, are blinded, do less damage.
They are sharing their Condition Damage with the rest of the group, mobs are dying faster making it easier for the team to get through the dungeon faster.
Their Toughness/Vitality does help the team, they are less likely to go down and need rezing, they are going to need less healing.
Your Magic Find doesn’t help the team, all it does is help you. Any other stat would help the team more (and by more any value is better than 0, which is what your magic find is contributing to the team).

they’re killing the mobs faster preventing their teammates from tagging them or getting any loot from them, they use their vitality/ toughness, go down and die while their squishy teammates have to jump around and avoid attacks. If you don’t want to share your stats with others don’t ask others to kitten themselves so you could get free stats.

Bull. See above. Tagging is based on party, not individual. You benefit from your teammates killing stuff faster. You benefit from your teammates having better attrition. Averaging MF to the party would give it the exact same effect. You are wrong. Period.

no, actually to get loot from a mob you have to do 10% of their health in damage. If a different party member kills a mob you get no loot from it. Averaging mf would make one person have 2 and 1/5 stats, while others get 3 and 1/5 of an extra stat. It’s in no way fair for the mf user. IF you want to get rewards for something you didn’t reach for tough luck.

It’s not enough to make a practical difference when it comes to tagging- this is a hyperbole.

Paradoxine.8192:

Einlanzer.1627:

Mirta.5029:

Ratty.5176:

Mirta.5029:

if it’s a group effort, then why are you not okay with sharing damage, vitality, toughness and condition damage?
Or is it just that you want to benefit from magic users without actually getting the gear yourself?

But they are sharing their Damage with the rest of the group, they are killing mobs faster. This helps the group.
They are sharing their Condition Duration with the rest of the group, because there conditions are more useful the team enemy move slower, are blinded, do less damage.
They are sharing their Condition Damage with the rest of the group, mobs are dying faster making it easier for the team to get through the dungeon faster.
Their Toughness/Vitality does help the team, they are less likely to go down and need rezing, they are going to need less healing.
Your Magic Find doesn’t help the team, all it does is help you. Any other stat would help the team more (and by more any value is better than 0, which is what your magic find is contributing to the team).

they’re killing the mobs faster preventing their teammates from tagging them or getting any loot from them, they use their vitality/ toughness, go down and die while their squishy teammates have to jump around and avoid attacks. If you don’t want to share your stats with others don’t ask others to kitten themselves so you could get free stats.

Bull. See above. Tagging is based on party, not individual. You benefit from your teammates killing stuff faster. You benefit from your teammates having better attrition. Averaging MF to the party would give it the exact same effect. You are wrong. Period.

Yeah, no. Having MF doesn’t help you finish a dungeon run, in fact, the exact opposite. It’s one thing to simply be a bad player, quite another to knowingly kitten yourself for better loot.

The key is better loot for your party, not just you.

Mirta.5029:

Ratty.5176:

Mirta.5029:

if it’s a group effort, then why are you not okay with sharing damage, vitality, toughness and condition damage?
Or is it just that you want to benefit from magic users without actually getting the gear yourself?

But they are sharing their Damage with the rest of the group, they are killing mobs faster. This helps the group.
They are sharing their Condition Duration with the rest of the group, because there conditions are more useful the team enemy move slower, are blinded, do less damage.
They are sharing their Condition Damage with the rest of the group, mobs are dying faster making it easier for the team to get through the dungeon faster.
Their Toughness/Vitality does help the team, they are less likely to go down and need rezing, they are going to need less healing.
Your Magic Find doesn’t help the team, all it does is help you. Any other stat would help the team more (and by more any value is better than 0, which is what your magic find is contributing to the team).

they’re killing the mobs faster preventing their teammates from tagging them or getting any loot from them, they use their vitality/ toughness, go down and die while their squishy teammates have to jump around and avoid attacks. If you don’t want to share your stats with others don’t ask others to kitten themselves so you could get free stats.

Bull. See above. Tagging is based on party, not individual. You benefit from your teammates killing stuff faster. You benefit from your teammates having better attrition. Averaging MF to the party would give it the exact same effect. You are wrong. Period.

tinymurder.5791:

Mirta.5029:

Einlanzer.1627:

Mirta.5029:

Einlanzer.1627:

Once again, this doesn’t make sense. It’s not unfair for the MF user, because the MF user is benefiting from the superior combat stats of the other party members. The superior combatants are benefiting from the MF character.

By its very definition, dungeoning is a group effort. Not an individual one. You guys are seriously off the mark with this.

if it’s a group effort, then why are you not okay with sharing damage, vitality, toughness and condition damage?
Or is it just that you want to benefit from magic users without actually getting the gear yourself?

Seriously, you are thick. YOU ARE SHARING ALL STATS. It’s a team sport. Just because the stats aren’t literally divided doesn’t mean they aren’t functionally. Good players/builds bring the whole team up, bad ones bring the whole team down.

you don’t benefit from someone else having vitality or toughness, the same way that you don’t benefit from someone having mf. It’s a stat that they have. The same way that you don’t benefit from other’s damage if you’re unable to deliver 10% of it to tag a mob before it dies, therefore getting no loot.

Excellent point. Let’s remove MF, then.

No it isn’t. I’m amazed by this conversation.

Mirta.5029:

Einlanzer.1627:

Mirta.5029:

Einlanzer.1627:

Once again, this doesn’t make sense. It’s not unfair for the MF user, because the MF user is benefiting from the superior combat stats of the other party members. The superior combatants are benefiting from the MF character.

By its very definition, dungeoning is a group effort. Not an individual one. You guys are seriously off the mark with this.

if it’s a group effort, then why are you not okay with sharing damage, vitality, toughness and condition damage?
Or is it just that you want to benefit from magic users without actually getting the gear yourself?

Seriously, you are thick. YOU ARE SHARING ALL STATS. It’s a team sport. Just because the stats aren’t literally divided doesn’t mean they aren’t functionally. Good players/builds bring the whole team up, bad ones bring the whole team down.

you don’t benefit from someone else having vitality or toughness, the same way that you don’t benefit from someone having mf. It’s a stat that they have. The same way that you don’t benefit from other’s damage if you’re unable to deliver 10% of it to tag a mob before it dies, therefore getting no loot.

Yes you are. the better they can stay alive the better it is for you. The more damage they do, the faster you kill things as a party regardless of your contribution. Anything your party tags is eligible for loot, not just you as an individual. You all derive benefit.

…… I don’t know what else to say to you to drive it home.

Mirta.5029:

Einlanzer.1627:

Once again, this doesn’t make sense. It’s not unfair for the MF user, because the MF user is benefiting from the superior combat stats of the other party members. The superior combatants are benefiting from the MF character.

By its very definition, dungeoning is a group effort. Not an individual one. You guys are seriously off the mark with this.

if it’s a group effort, then why are you not okay with sharing damage, vitality, toughness and condition damage?
Or is it just that you want to benefit from magic users without actually getting the gear yourself?

Seriously, you are thick. YOU ARE SHARING ALL STATS. It’s a team sport. Just because the stats aren’t literally divided doesn’t mean they aren’t functionally. Good players/builds bring the whole team up, bad ones bring the whole team down. Averaging MF would put it on equal footing as the other stats.

This is seriously not rocket science.

Mirta.5029:

Einlanzer.1627:

There’s something wrong with you people. What are you talking about “leech off of other people”? That sure sounds more elitist than anything I’ve ever said. How exactly is it leeching when you’re contributing something to the group? MF might be a great way for less skilled players to contribute something to the group. The other stats already are more or less being added up and divided equally in essence, because it’s only the group’s effectiveness as a unit that matters.

Your argument seriously makes no sense.

your gear only has 3 stats. Magic find is one of the stats you can get. Why sharing it would be unfair for a magic find user.
Let’s say you are in a party with 5 people with no magic find. Now your magic find is only 20% as effective. Now your gear essentially is missing 4/5ths of a stat just so others could have 3 stats + 1/5th of your stat. If we’re making one party member suffer this much, why not force ALL to share EVERYTHING? That way it’s fair!

let’s say it doesn’t get divided. Now you have 3 stats, while others have 4 stats with one stat that they didn’t have to work for. While we’re at it why not to share all stats? That way it’s a fair exchange.

Once again, this doesn’t make sense because you essentially are sharing all stats. It’s not unfair for the MF user, because the MF user is benefiting from the superior combat stats of the other party members. The superior combatants are benefiting from the MF stats on the ‘weak guy’.

By its very definition, dungeoning is a group effort. Not an individual one. You guys are seriously off the mark with this. I am objectively right.

Mirta.5029:

Einlanzer.1627:

Mirta.5029:

Einlanzer.1627:

Mirta.5029:

Paradoxine.8192:

Here is the simple (not necessarily easy to implement) fix for magic find.

1. Add an extra utility slot to all weapons and armours which can optionally be fitted with a magic find infusion.

2. People who want MF will just farm it, add it and be done with it and keep all their other stats. People who don’t get it simply won’t get the bonus.

3. Encourages players to ‘finish’ their sets by getting MF infusions, much like sigils, despite not affecting gameplay.

4. ???

5. Enjoy

While they’re at it, they need to review the drop rates for many items in the game. Having only guaranteed blues for champions is a joke. The vast, vast majority of rares let alone blues are complete trash. About the only problem with changing stuff like this is that people will go farm champions and I say let them. CoF P1 will remain the undisputed king of farming regardless.

you know your suggestion is the only one so far in this thread that makes sense. Also instead of removing the whole mf gear they should replace one stat for people that own it so that those people wouldn’t end up naked.

No it isn’t. What’s the point of having a slot that’s only meant for one thing?

MF is fine exactly how it is, with the exception that it’s a detriment to people you’re grouping with. A simple fix of making it automatically average MF for all members in a group is all it needs.

then you will find people with mf not wanting to group with anyone without it. You would also allow other players to leech off mf users.
If mf users got their gear changed to some other stat combination and mf would be something everyone could infuse their armor with if they work for it, then we’re all equal.

Oh, well in that case let’s just go ahead and remove all the stats then huh?

Seriously, this isn’t a good argument. MF wouldn’t carry any special form of elitism that people don’t already carry for things like Berserker stats.

and elitism for berserker stats is bad, there’s no reason to put in another type of elitism.
What you’re suggesting seems very selfish to me. You want to leech of other people no matter what. I don’t agree with that. I don’t think that you should get a stat that you have not worked for. Because otherwise while we’re at it, why not to have a system like this:
All the damage in the party gets added up and divided equally
All the toughness in the party gets added up and divided equally
All the vitality in the party gets added up and divided equally
All condition damage in the party gets added up and divided equally.

There’s something wrong with you people. What are you talking about “leech off of other people”? That sure sounds more elitist than anything I’ve ever said. How exactly is it leeching when you’re contributing something to the group? MF might be a great way for less skilled players to contribute something other than uber DPS.

In essence, that’s exactly what’s happening with the other stats, because it’s only the group’s effectiveness as a unit that matters.

Your argument seriously makes no sense.

Paradoxine.8192:

Einlanzer.1627:

Mirta.5029:

Paradoxine.8192:

Here is the simple (not necessarily easy to implement) fix for magic find.

1. Add an extra utility slot to all weapons and armours which can optionally be fitted with a magic find infusion.

2. People who want MF will just farm it, add it and be done with it and keep all their other stats. People who don’t get it simply won’t get the bonus.

3. Encourages players to ‘finish’ their sets by getting MF infusions, much like sigils, despite not affecting gameplay.

4. ???

5. Enjoy

While they’re at it, they need to review the drop rates for many items in the game. Having only guaranteed blues for champions is a joke. The vast, vast majority of rares let alone blues are complete trash. About the only problem with changing stuff like this is that people will go farm champions and I say let them. CoF P1 will remain the undisputed king of farming regardless.

you know your suggestion is the only one so far in this thread that makes sense. Also instead of removing the whole mf gear they should replace one stat for people that own it so that those people wouldn’t end up naked.

No it isn’t. What’s the point of having a slot that’s only meant for one thing?

MF is fine exactly how it is, with the exception that it’s a detriment to people you’re grouping with. A simple fix of making it automatically average MF for all members in a group is all it needs.

Not only is your idea completely nonsensical, there is no problem with having a utility slot ‘only’ serve one purpose. Your ‘fix’ still ends up with people being unnecessarily weaker than they would otherwise be.

I seriously don’t get how that idea qualifies as “nonsensical”. Some people would find the choice of being slightly weaker to have the chance at better drops interesting. I do.

Mirta.5029:

Einlanzer.1627:

Mirta.5029:

Paradoxine.8192:

Here is the simple (not necessarily easy to implement) fix for magic find.

1. Add an extra utility slot to all weapons and armours which can optionally be fitted with a magic find infusion.

2. People who want MF will just farm it, add it and be done with it and keep all their other stats. People who don’t get it simply won’t get the bonus.

3. Encourages players to ‘finish’ their sets by getting MF infusions, much like sigils, despite not affecting gameplay.

4. ???

5. Enjoy

While they’re at it, they need to review the drop rates for many items in the game. Having only guaranteed blues for champions is a joke. The vast, vast majority of rares let alone blues are complete trash. About the only problem with changing stuff like this is that people will go farm champions and I say let them. CoF P1 will remain the undisputed king of farming regardless.

you know your suggestion is the only one so far in this thread that makes sense. Also instead of removing the whole mf gear they should replace one stat for people that own it so that those people wouldn’t end up naked.

No it isn’t. What’s the point of having a slot that’s only meant for one thing?

MF is fine exactly how it is, with the exception that it’s a detriment to people you’re grouping with. A simple fix of making it automatically average MF for all members in a group is all it needs.

then you will find people with mf not wanting to group with anyone without it. You would also allow other players to leech off mf users.
If mf users got their gear changed to some other stat combination and mf would be something everyone could infuse their armor with if they work for it, then we’re all equal.

Oh, well in that case let’s just go ahead and remove all the stats then huh?

Seriously, this isn’t a good argument. MF wouldn’t carry any special form of elitism that people don’t already carry for things like Berserker stats.

Mirta.5029:

Paradoxine.8192:

Here is the simple (not necessarily easy to implement) fix for magic find.

1. Add an extra utility slot to all weapons and armours which can optionally be fitted with a magic find infusion.

2. People who want MF will just farm it, add it and be done with it and keep all their other stats. People who don’t get it simply won’t get the bonus.

3. Encourages players to ‘finish’ their sets by getting MF infusions, much like sigils, despite not affecting gameplay.

4. ???

5. Enjoy

While they’re at it, they need to review the drop rates for many items in the game. Having only guaranteed blues for champions is a joke. The vast, vast majority of rares let alone blues are complete trash. About the only problem with changing stuff like this is that people will go farm champions and I say let them. CoF P1 will remain the undisputed king of farming regardless.

you know your suggestion is the only one so far in this thread that makes sense. Also instead of removing the whole mf gear they should replace one stat for people that own it so that those people wouldn’t end up naked.

No it isn’t. What’s the point of having a slot that’s only meant for one thing?

MF is fine exactly how it is, with the exception that it’s a detriment to people you’re grouping with. A simple fix of making it automatically average MF for all members in a group is all it needs.

Rifles do not fit this game’s ranger. That’s all there is to it. I actually think OH Sword makes more sense. As for ranged weapons, I’d love to see a boomerang/chakram throwing weapon.

New Character Yo.6487:

Our stealth is our main source of survivablility.

Once i’m visible, I start to die very quickly. The only other thing that saves me is my S/P to daze and stun them.

Yes. Except it doesn’t work as such very well in PvE especially.

typographie.1742:

Einlanzer.1627:

typographie.1742:

I’m sure this won’t be the most popular sentiment, but I say they should just adjust the base drop rates and remove magic find entirely. I don’t understand why we have it in the first place—what problem in gameplay is it meant to resolve? Would we really miss it if it had never existed?

Yes, I’d miss it. IMO it adds a little more flavor/depth to itemization. Also, it would be unfair to people who spent a lot of time getting end-game MF gear.

I’d rather depth and flavor were added to itemization in ways that actually affects how our characters perform, rather than just giving us imperceptibly better odds in the loot lottery.

For that matter, when is magic find really enough of a choice to affect how deep or interesting itemization is? If you’re farming, you wear magic find. If you aren’t, you don’t. If you’re ever faced with a serious decision on whether or not you should wear magic find, its probably the wrong place to use it.

Neither of us can win this argument, it’s just a matter of personal preference. From both a flavor and a depth-of-itemization perspective, I enjoy Magic Find as a stat that can optionally stand in for other stats. It’s just that simple.

I don’t think there’s a problem with the class design philosophies, just with some of the execution.

In particular, there is not an adequate tradeoff for poor defense, which is why warriors and guardians are the best dungeon classes. What I’d like to see is some simple ‘baked-in’ advantages for lower armor wearers like increased endurance regeneration and cooldown bonuses.

The Initiative system really messes with Thieves a lot. In some ways they are too good, but they are also brokenly bad in most ways.

They don’t have a broad enough weapon selection as it as, and Pistols and Shortbows are very lackluster in general (though SB can shine very situtionally). This is due in large part to them having weak autoattacks, which is a very critical problem with thieves in particular because all of their other skills share a resource.

Stealth is very problematic – it works a bit too well in PvP and not nearly well enough in PvE. It’s moduled more as an offensive tool than a defensive one, which is a problem given how squishy they are. The terrible downed state and lackluster sustained DPS combines to make the class extremely pigeon-holed in the area of burst damage builds to be very playable.

Nettle.9025:

A problem with P/P is that it doesn’t know what it wants to be. Vital shot seems to fit for a condi build, and isn’t awful in a P/D bleed build with its stealth burst. But in P/P you don’t have much stealth, so the auto becomes very meh. Unload seems to suggest a straight power build for single target ranged damage. They don’t synergize well together. Body shot probably just needs a rework.

Currently it has some rare situational usage against pve bosses that require ranged where unload spam beats the aoe damage of SB. It’s never seen in pvp play unless it’s a joke build or someone new that doesn’t know better.

Einlanzer.1627:

Body Shot – swap with headshot, make it cripple/vuln hybrid
Head Shot – swap with body shot, improve daze to 1/2 second

The entire thief spvp community would rage so hard if that ever happened

I have to admit it’s not so much a mechanical suggestion as it is a thematic suggestion.

For some some reason it really bothers me that you’d aim more precisely with your off hand than with your main hand. It seems like you’d aim for head with your main hand and just shoot sporadically with your offhand.

Rajani Isa.6294:

Einlanzer.1627:

Ridley.3691:

Haven’t read through the whole thread, so sorry if it’s already been given, but a great way they can make Magic Find gear help party members is if Magic Find amongst party members was added together and divided equally between them.

For example, 4 party members have no MF and one has 100%. It would mean all would now have 20%. Perfectly fair.

Yup, that’s what I’ve been saying. Best and easiest fix by far; doesn’t require any pointless overhauls. IMO removing it altogether would cause a huge firestorm and there’s really no need for current itemization to suffer.

But, unlike some of those overhauls, it WOULD require programming time, I’d think (I don’t know if the system could handle a buff that’s added up/divided like that based on the number of people. Although as long as they were done as stack-able buffs, the adding part wouldn’t matter. But I don’t recall any buffs that scale down with the number of people you team with.)

It’s amazing how much easier it can be to get something done when it doesn’t require programming time.

I’m not going to claim to know either way, but as I said above I can’t imagine it being harder than a massive overhaul to the system and it’s a more ideal solution than just removing it altogether. I can’t imagine it’d be THAT hard, it’s a simple calculation.

typographie.1742:

I’m sure this won’t be the most popular sentiment, but I say they should just adjust the base drop rates and remove magic find entirely. I don’t understand why we have it in the first place—what problem in gameplay is it meant to resolve? Would we really miss it if it had never existed?

Yes, I’d miss it. IMO it adds a little more flavor/depth to itemization. Also, it would be unfair to people who spent a lot of time getting end-game MF gear.

Ridley.3691:

Haven’t read through the whole thread, so sorry if it’s already been given, but a great way they can make Magic Find gear help party members is if Magic Find amongst party members was added together and divided equally between them.

For example, 4 party members have no MF and one has 100%. It would mean all would now have 20%. Perfectly fair.

Yup, that’s what I’ve been saying. Best and easiest fix by far; doesn’t require any pointless overhauls. IMO removing it altogether would cause a huge firestorm and there’s really no need for current itemization to suffer.

Akbaroth.2861:

… or we could answer his question?

on Nov 15 they released an update that corrected a lot of tooltips that were portraying skills as being more powerful than they were.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Game_updates/2012-11-15#Profession_Skills

a lot of people were upset about this update either because they thought a lot of skills were nerfed for no good reason or because they thought anet took the easy way out of fixing a problem. i think both are pointless arguments based on rage/assumptions

They actually were nerfed for no good reason. Most ranged weapons used to be stronger until the devs realized that there was an issue of risk vs. reward for ranged weapons, so a lot of them got nerfed, especially autoattacks.

What they didn’t really think out was that some classes need to be able to operate fully at long distance because of attrition issues. This is the main reason the staff feels so underwhelming right now.

Invictus.1503:

Einlanzer.1627:

maddoctor.2738:

As many people that use MF say, they have both farming MF gear and different dungeon gear, the only place that MF is actually “bad” is in a dungeon, I fail to see why there is any need to remove MF anywhere else. Simply making MF useless in dungeons and also increasing the rewards of all dungeon chests should be enough.

Or just making it spread to groups as an average. I don’t understand why other people don’t see that as the easiest, best solution.

I don’t like that because then it just shifts the pendulum the other direction. “Unless you contribute XX amount of MF then you can’t party with us.” In addition, if you took it as an average number then it makes that even worse since one person with no MF lowers the overall average of other people’s MF gear.

I disagree. I don’t think the stat is so critical that it will result in that amount of elitism. As I said above, it’s arguably more effective to ignore MF and focus on combat stats only so that you can survive and damage more optimally. MF will always be an item of controversy, but that is not inherently a bad thing. There is already controversy surrounding itemization in the game and that will never go away. I don’t think MF will belong to any special category of elitism with this change.

While P/P does have a number of issues, by far the single most glaring is how weak Vital Shot is. As I’ve elaborated on in post after post, it is critically important for Thieves that the autoattack of any weapon be a viable source of DPS on its own because of the way Initiative works. This is a problem for the Shortbow also.

My 2 cents –
Vital Shot – Buff dramatically for bread/butter single-target DPS
Body Shot – swap with headshot, make it cripple/vuln hybrid
Unload – Make it spray instead of single target
Head Shot – swap with body shot, improve daze to 1/2 second
Black Powder – Fine as is

Richochet – 40% chance of bounce
Pistol Master – back down to 5%

Rajani Isa.6294:

Einlanzer.1627:

maddoctor.2738:

As many people that use MF say, they have both farming MF gear and different dungeon gear, the only place that MF is actually “bad” is in a dungeon, I fail to see why there is any need to remove MF anywhere else. Simply making MF useless in dungeons and also increasing the rewards of all dungeon chests should be enough.

Or just making it spread to groups as an average. I don’t understand why other people don’t see that as the easiest, best solution.

Because backend, it might not be the easiest solution?

I considered that, I but I can’t see how it would be more difficult than a sweeping redesign of the whole system.