Guild Wars 2

The more I think about this Pink Dye Movement, the more I like it. It’s time gamers in general stood up against homophobia, racism, sexism, anti-Semitism, and other prejudices being espoused by users who feel secure in spreading hateful language. I’m sure all of us have been exposed to the offensive chat comment that goes unchallenged. Like Youtube comments, some players feel their anonymity allows them to say things they never would in public. I’m not talking about the odd silly remark made by a bored 15-year-old looking for a reaction, I’m talking about very pointed, hateful statements that occasionally happen in game.

About 12 months ago a norn warrior started recruiting outside CoF for a Neo The movement Hilter started which the forum won’t let me write guild he was founding. At first I thought he was just being outrageous and incendiary, but when I questioned him about it in /whisper I realized he was 100% serious and very much a beliver in Hitler’s worldview about non-white races. I moved the conversation to /say so everyone would be witness to what he was saying. After he found out I was jewish things got very heated. I won’t repeat his hateful words, but it was chilling to find such views being expressed in what many of us consider a safe space. I reported him for “verbal abuse” but it didn’t feel like the appropriate term. I think Anet needs to include a report category like other games have which clearly states “Prejudicial Language/Hate Speech”. In a game where typing the word “Kitten” is not allowed, we should be able to properly report people who use derogatory language.

I also applaud the OP and the hot pink movement! More fun events that promote tolerance will probably help even more than a new report category. So good work.

I fully support this! LGBT for the win! Nice one!

Just want to say THANK YOU to everyone for an epic, earth-shattering week. NSP, you rock harder than a Skritt heavy metal garage band. They said it couldn’t be done, but here we are sitting on DH’s doorstep in a fully conquered Darkhaven BL.

And thank you to DH and iOJ. You guys kept it clean this week and fought like true champions. I tip my hat to you both. Huzzah!

Godmoney.2048:

Geiir.7603:

Godmoney.2048:

Hmm, with 1530 condi damage it’kittenting for about 4500, and a additional 4500 if they run.

I feel it hits pretty hard all things considered. I am really liking it I got to say, but I need a couple more days with it to really have a valid opinion.

It does seem to scale very well with condi damage almost so much so I think scepter now requires condi gear to be worth while

As a thief this frightens me. A glass thief will have 13k hp. A thief that doesn’t move equals dead thief. This condition probably hit thieves hardest (not complaining!) because we rely 90% on evading damage. If you were to hit me whit that condition you would take about 50% of my health, glad I have some condition removal! :p

I took a thief earlier tonight from 100-25% with a single application of torment.

On 5 stacks of torment? Please explain. Seems impossible.

Oh god. Here we go again….

Valderro.6389:

So this was a bug, but I really want to see it return as a master trait, added to ‘malicious sorcery’ instead of the condition damage or a new trait in illusions or chaos. For something that was unintended it had so many benefits:

-It boosted the viability of scepter.
-It would make for less reliance on ‘deceptive evasion’ and ‘illusionists celerity’.
-A build based around the traits that cause cripple, random conditions (weakness!) and confusion on clone death would be much more effective.
-It gave the scepter a much stronger and coherent identity of being a punishment weaponset, the ‘double clones’ add conditions to stationary targets while block skill adds a condition that punishes movement, so scepter becomes a weaponset that forces an enemy to keep moving and to be cautious of triggering ‘illusionary counter’.
-With this change and the 3 stacks of bleed on ‘Debilitating Dissipation’, it is the only way for scepter clones to add enough bleeds to equal staff or greatsword. That’s right a power weaponset when traited adds more bleeds than a condition weaponset.
-Build diversity!

Amen!!! I hope Anet does this. It was exactly the buff Sceptor badly needed. How ironic that it wasn’t intentional. It’s almost like the game code itself knew what needed to be done and did it for Anet. They should read the writing on the wall.

dandamanno.4136:

“Mesmer:
Ether Clone: Fixed a bug causing this ability to generate two clones in a WvW or PvP map.”

Kitten

Heaven forbid Scepter should actually be improved.

I’ve been trying an interesting hybrid. By swapping out “Empowered Illusions” with “Crippling Dissipation” and using Focus instead of pistol (Sw/T – Sc/F) You get an incredible amount of crowd control. It’s amazing for both zergs and solo. Try to produce as many clones as possible and almost never shatter so your foe kills as many of them as they can. Check it out.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fgAQRAsf7dlwzKqHTzpGb9IipH9WwBckUUavWJF42FC

Godmoney.2048:

Loco.4561:

aNet will NEVER increase the damage on Torment, because the same people who cried about confusion would cry about torment. aNet seems to cater for those lazy players who rather than not attacking (confusion) or not moving (Torment) would rather keep the ability to press 222222 until their fingers bleed.

The continual dumbing down of anything that requires any kind of thought to use or gives a penalty to a player is being removed from this game to cater for casual, lazy players. A shame really.

Are you kitten kidding me? You want it to hit harder than 11k? WTF.

I got to say some of your peoples whining is just silly. I would go so far as to say you’re bad and you should feel bad for being so bad, but I’ll stop short and say you should practice more.

Serious, if these changes really keep you from owning face then that’s your problem not Anet’s.

Buff Torments damage even more? That’s insane that you would even ask that. My torment takes people to below half health already.

I’m starting to lose patience with this complaining. It’s obvious that people haven’t even tried torment yet. There is no way a rational person could be asking for a damage buff on it unless they are completely clueless.

“Your people’s whining”… Guessing you’re a necro or thief. Despite the uncivil, belligerent tone, you do have a point. Other classes would become OP if Torment went up because of their unbridled access to stacking ability. What would work though is giving the mesmer more ways of applying Torment instead of one skill on a block at only 5 stacks. Sorry, but it’s just not enough damage at 5 stacks for a Mesmer to be worth it. That, OR have it work like confusion where the damage is increased if you’re moving, but goes to zero if you stand still. I like the concept of Torment, but right now it just feels like another bleed for Mesmers. I’m sure Necros and thieves are rocking it hard.

purplepegasus.2791:

First of all, thanks a ton for posting this- this build is great and I’ve had a ton of fun with it

Personally, I’ve tried mantra of restoration and it’s been pretty effective- stealth is a great time to meditate, and it only has a 10 second cool down. It’s only an idea, but I’ve had some good results from it

Thanks! So glad you are enjoying the build! The mantra sounds interesting to work in there.

Loco.4561:

aNet will NEVER increase the damage on Torment, because the same people who cried about confusion would cry about torment. aNet seems to cater for those lazy players who rather than not attacking (confusion) or not moving (Torment) would rather keep the ability to press 222222 until their fingers bleed.

The continual dumbing down of anything that requires any kind of thought to use or gives a penalty to a player is being removed from this game to cater for casual, lazy players. A shame really.

Agreed. Once again I’m reminded of the absurdity of that 50% confusion nerf. The confusion symbol is LITERALLY the Mesmer symbol on the forums. It was designed to be a core condition of our class, not an after thought no one pays attention to. The problem with Anet is that they are so terrified of Mesmers that they never want to give us any kind of real buff without a severe nerf or disadvantage to go with it. They’re like an insanely strict parent who says “Okay Johnny, you can have a slice of carrot cake, but you must clean the toilet while you eat it.” They dangled torment in front of our faces before this patch, then gave it to us on ONE weapon skill that’s not even a direct application. And only 5 stacks. No way to get that stack up AT ALL unless you reapply the same block.

Crossplay.2067:

To me, the real issue is a lack of communication with players. Anet says they’re listening but they rarely interact on their own forums except for general bug fixes and personal story help. I’m not suggesting that they respond to every post or even every thread as that would take way too much time away from game development. However, would it hurt to start one thread in every the profession forum and ask, “what’s the one thing everyone wants”?

What I want, particularly for the mesmer forums, is one thread every month where a dev actually talks to us consistently. Let us know where you want the profession to go and let us tell you where we want it to go. Then see if we can meet somewhere in the middle. I know it’s going to take a lot of effort. Any thread of this like will get thousands of replies and hundreds of pages. It will also attract people that would, “show their butt,” simply for the sake of disruptively drawing attention to themselves. However, it will also give us a heads up on upcoming changes.

For example, the drastic nerf to confusion should have been discussed in great length at least 4 to 6 weeks ahead of time. Worst case scenario would have been a dev telling us that it has to happen because the numbers show it’s potentially scaring new players from wvw. Then give us some options on how to fix it, allow us to give alternative suggestions, vote on which solution is best and implement it. Even if the result doesn’t please everyone, we will have had our chance to be heard and be forewarned that a huge nerf is coming. Instead of being suddenly, “punched in the chest,” on patch day like we usually are, we will have the chance to prepare. We won’t waist our time, money, energy and effort on gear for a build that’s neutered the very next day.

That’s what I want. Communication. Don’t just tell us you’re listening, Anet. Show us!

AMEN!!! How hard is to delegate an Anet class spokesperson for each class, maybe not a head dev, but certainly an Anet employee who works as a representative or liaison to Anet on our behalf. Someone who posts frequently. This whole “silent and stoic” approch from a company ONLY works if you don’t fiddle so much with constant patches and nerfs and changes. I remember in the early days of WoW there wasn’t much mod posting, but they barely changed anything. I almost feel like, finish the game already! I honestly would prefer Anet cutting off play for a month so they can just do all their endless fiddling and be done with it. I hate build crafting and planning and studying the class only to have it obliterated with each new patch. Right now Anet is the biggest, baddest MMO on the planet, or at least the class act. Because of that most if us are here to stay. But they better watch out because when another MMO comes out that competes they are gonna lose all the players who have been burned by these endless nerfs.

Dastion.3106:

The interrupt mechanic really needs some looking into if they want to make an interrupt build even remotely viable. If they made daze no more than a 1-2s duration and changed it to “The next skill used is interrupted and placed on an X second cool down” THEN it would be viable. This game just isn’t built like GW1 to allow for reactive interrupts reliably.

Agreed. Plus an interrupt build is practically useless in PVE because of the slower rate of attack for mobs and the infrequency of channeled spells. Maybe someone will theory craft something amazing, but personally I feel like all this chatter by Anet of build diversity resulting in a boost of interrupt traits is kind of an insult. There are so many traits that need to be reworked, and they give us interrupts? A mechanism that is often luck based?

Here’s my thoughts on how this patch affects the “Hidden Fire” build.

The best part of the patch is of course the buff to Prismatic Understanding. This trait will now pulse every second and the added boons, especially protection is lovely. I think builds involving PU are going to increase in popularity this month in general.

If you are running Sc/P – Sw/T as I have been of late, the addition of torment in the block doesn’t hurt, although I can’t say it really is a game changer as timing block properly in WvW can be difficult. Scepter does indeed now produce two clones on attack 1 instead of one. I’m not sure if this is a ninja buff or a bug. Time will tell, but the added clones are welcome!

We are unaffected by the illusionists Celerity nerf, although my heart goes out to those who are.

The bad news is of course the massive nerf to Blurred Frenzy which is a staple of our build’s main combo attack. Blurred Frenzy + The Prestige is what inspired this build. I still need to do more testing, but the increased CD and the downgrade of invulnerability to evade does weaken us. I have hope though that a proper use of Shatter 4, and perhaps an investment in Blade Training may take some of the sting off.

All in all, there is much to try out and adjust to. Post if you notice any interesting changes or combinations.

I admire your optimism. And I wish that people like you were working at Anet. Unfortunately though, I think the reality is quite bleak. I have faith in the resilience and ingenuity of the Mesmer community to come back in the face of these endless nerfs, but I have little to no faith that Anet will turn the nerf train around. Never in my life have I seen a company tinker and fiddle and nerf more than Anet. It’s like they can’t leave well enough alone. I’m not sure what their goal is, but this endless balancing is ruining classes. The blurred frenzy nerf alone is a serious kick in the nuts to sword mesmers everywhere. The PU buff is fantastic, but it does little to change the fact that the restructuring of the Illusions trait lines and all the other fiddling is a real blow to us today.

Godmoney.2048:

Hmm, with 1530 condi damage it’kittenting for about 4500, and a additional 4500 if they run.

I feel it hits pretty hard all things considered. I am really liking it I got to say, but I need a couple more days with it to really have a valid opinion.

It does seem to scale very well with condi damage almost so much so I think scepter now requires condi gear to be worth while

What mesmer runs 1530 condition damage these days? Completely impractical after the confusion nerf. And I hate to break it to you, but no one’s gonna buy all condition gear for one torment application off a block on scepter.

Ramiel.4931:

I am now sure that ANet does not know what they want the Mesmer to be.

They had a vision in the beginning, tried to make it true to that vision, then started to change different things as response to different problems. Somewhere along the line, they lost track of what the Mesmer was supposed to be and now they just go with the flow, nerfing and buffing things according to the meta flow.

They also seem to have adopted a pet, in the form of the shatter spec. Every good thing that they did so far has revolved around a shatter spec.

This makes me quite sad. I love the class and it has so much potential, but for all the potential and possibilities, there’s an equal number of bugs and problems.

I won’t abandon the Mesmer, it’s basically the only class that doesn’t bore me to tears but the future is grim. Nothing good will come of it.

I totally agree. Mesmer’s class concept used to be very clear. Through use of misdirection, illusion, mind games, and duplicates we serve to confuse our foes and mess with their minds. Confusion was a core element of our concept. Then they got rid of it. When we lost confusion, the concept of the Mesmer got a little foggy. Now I feel like Anet just lost the scent completely. What in Grenth’s name do “interrupts” have to do with Mesmers? Sure we can make them happen if we’re lucky, sure they add a little spice now and then, but to release an entire patch redesigning traits intended to push us towards an interrupt build is just silly. So now we no longer mess with people’s minds, we just clear our throats and interrupt their actions? Wow… What a lame class trait. There is nothing cool about being The Great Interruptor. “Here he comes! that dreaded, dastardly Interruptor! He never let’s us finish our sentences! He—-”. It’s just silly. Give us traits built around stuns/dazes if you must, or a new trait line called “Mind Kitten” which allows us to cause friendly fire or briefly take over other characters. Something cool and useful! Interrupts are just not cool or useful. And before you say “But interrupt traits were always a part of the Mesmer trait line!” I honestly thought that when Anet said they were removing useless traits, interrupt traits would be the first to go. Instead they get front and center while blurred frenzy gets nerfed into the ground.

Been testing Torment from a mesmer perspective and as much as I love them adding something new to scepter, I’m decidedly underwelmed. They REALLY need to increase the damage boost when targets are moving. People who get Torment on them should be terrified to move around. Instead, it’s like the slightest uptick from a super weak bleed. This won’t be stopping anyone from doing anything. Not even worth a condition cleanse. It’s the GW2 equivalent of getting a small pebble in your shoe.

How do you guys feel about Torment?

This blurred frenzy nerf is just awful. Anet never ceases to disappoint. The only solace I can take is that this will confuse the hell out of foes. Normally if a foe hits us with direct melee during BF they would receive the invulnerable tag. Now it’ll just say “miss”. I can only imagine all the other classes who haven’t read our patch notes thinking their attacks are bugged. Other then that, this is an absurd nerf.

ArenaNerf strikes again.

As I’m sure tomorrow will bring much hand wringing and furrowed brows as we nervously scour the patch notes, I thought we could use a bit of levity. I’m sure some of us have named our Mesmers glorious, Mesmery things. Let’s post them below. Best Mesmer name gets a life time supply of krait salad sandwiches with extra mayo.

Me:
Styx Hemlock – Sylvari Mesmer

Post yours below. And include pics if you are so inclined.

OP is definitely a “cup half full” person.

bobross.5034:

Lord Trejgon.2809:

@Windwalker if 3-4 stacks of confusion is “meaningless damage” so why when I was using shortbow on ranger and had 4 stacks of confusion form some mesmer I nearly killed myself before I’ve noticed confusion?
aswer is simple – because it depends on some stats called condition damage and on how quick target is using skills (rangers shortbow autoatack is one of speed ones

and don’t forget that confusion damage ignore target armor – so considering that most players are packing more in toughness and really not so many in vitality it will be punishing very much…

So lets imagine a mesmer maxes out their condition damage and gets around 3k for that stat – which is possible with the right stats, equipment choices and food.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Confusion
the damage would be 65+(3000 × .075) or 290 per stack.
3-4 stacks at a time would be the average that mesmer could get on a single target, while 10 is possible on occasion. That would be between 1000 and 3000 damage per action, but condition cleans works well, as does waiting, because the confusion will go away and the mesmer will be waiting on cooldowns. now if you were pew pewing through 3-4 stacks of confusion, and lets say you had 18k health to start, you’d have to attack 6-18 times to kill yourself, meanwhile the mesmer would have to deal with all of that incoming damage (and I’m sure you do about 1k damage per attack)

The mesmer would do mediocre damage with auto-attacks, and may swap to staff to get some bleeding and fire to do some modest damage that way, but otherwise, this is a mesmer who is fully committed to confusion, and has very few other sources of damage. That build is very easy to counter and beat. Just wait out the confusion and you’re fine. Or you can attack through some of the confusion, especially if you do more damage than the confusion (with my thief on s/d I usually hit for 1.5k-3k on autoattacks, and I’m not a glass cannon build).

Take the other example, lets say someone wants to throw in a splash of confusion in a build with mediocre condition damage. Mesmers always have access to some confusion, since they can pop cry of frustration. So lets say they have 1.5 k condition damage, which is respectable. They may get 4 stacks of confusion on an enemy for 4 seconds every 20 seconds. Lets say its an average enemy that attacks twice through the confusion (not 20 times like your pew pewing self). That would wind up doing about 1.5 k damage.

Take the same example and lets imagine its an 8 second bleed instead of a 4 second confusion (since confusion is usually about half the duration of bleeds). If the 1.5k condition damage build got 4 stacks on you and you didn’t remove them, it’d be 3760 damage.

So as you can see, in every day use, bleeds are more powerful than confusion, and how often do you start to sweat because you have 4 stacks of bleeding on you? So the problem is mesmers can cause some bleeding, some fire and some confusion. But even taken together, it’s barely enough to make a condition build worth playing. You can almost always swap power for condition damage, and run exactly the same build (minus a few confusion boosting traits) and have better damage output, that is also more consistent and harder to counter. As it stands, condition builds on mesmers (both in pve and pvp/wvw) are more for novelty sake than efficacy.

The way I see it, confusion used to be the main attraction. The ice cream cone. Now it’s like the sprinkles on the ice cream cone. You don’t really care that they are there, but it adds a slight diversion. Which sucks because confusion is supposed to be our main, signature condition. Sigh I need some ice cream.

In other news, it’ll at least be interesting to try an interrupt/daze/stun build after this patch. I tried it once before and it was not viable. Maybe now it will have legs.

Carighan.6758:

The iMage can be fixed in a number of ways, but none are truly useful.

The core issue is Confusion, not the Mage. If Confusion were to be re-thought (which honestly it needs to be, it just doesn’t work out as a burst condition, see previous vs current balance in WvW), then the iMage would fall into place on its own.

I think replacing his confusion application with torment or burn would work for me. And adding an additional bounce to his attack.

Deniara Devious.3948:

bobross.5034:

I think the bigger issue is population imbalance. If populations are relatively equal, a double teaming situation will likely only be temporary. As a server succeeds and claims more territory, they spread themselves thin. This makes them ripe for picking by the opposing sides, and a double-team naturally happens to bring the sides in line. If the opponents continue to double team after the top team has been whittled down,and is hoarded up in a few keeps/towers, then this is a waste of resources for the two attackers, who are facing a tougher battle than they would have against eachother in other holdings. So the alliance should naturally break up at some point.

The problem where a losing team gets double teamed is a symptom of putting a low population server against two larger population servers. In this matchup, the low pop server is easy pickings always. therefore the logical progression for the winners should be to take keeps from the losing server first, until there’s nothing left, then shore up their home borderlands (and any weakly defended keeps), then go after eachother.

As you can see the problem doesnt come from a 3-way matchup or alliances. the problem comes from huge population differences between servers.

Exactly. Desolation has been badly outmanned so often, it is no longer funny. Despite we have lost every match up for weeks in a row, we are once again fighting against EU rank #1 and #3. How can a server which hasn’t won a single match up in year 2013 be repeatedly pitted against #1?!?!? We have been #3 (last in our match ups) almost every single time, due very simple reason: enemy has much better coverage and more WvWvW players.

Even the enemy feels pity for us and has expressed this in forums.

I hope Arenanet will stop this madness very soon. And I mean next Friday. No more waiting. People are stopping WvWvW and no longer playing Guild Wars 2 because of this. This is a dire urgent situation, which needs to stop now as this is indeed server breaking situation.

I’m sorry you guys are in that situation. Sounds terrible. NSP often has an outmanned buff and it’s extremely frustrating. The more I think about it, the more I believe server pop imbalance could really be a big factor in the double-teaming issue. I’m sure there’s a way to match servers based on both skill and number of players who log into WvW. NSP has a large gen pop, but many of those players are PVE focused. Anet would have to set up an algorithm to track player time spent in WvW. Say server A had 150 regular WvW players, Server B had 47, and server C had 50. Server B&C would be matched in one bracket while Server A would be in a different bracket.

bobross.5034:

I think the bigger issue is population imbalance. If populations are relatively equal, a double teaming situation will likely only be temporary. As a server succeeds and claims more territory, they spread themselves thin. This makes them ripe for picking by the opposing sides, and a double-team naturally happens to bring the sides in line. If the opponents continue to double team after the top team has been whittled down,and is hoarded up in a few keeps/towers, then this is a waste of resources for the two attackers, who are facing a tougher battle than they would have against eachother in other holdings. So the alliance should naturally break up at some point.

The problem where a losing team gets double teamed is a symptom of putting a low population server against two larger population servers. In this matchup, the low pop server is easy pickings always. therefore the logical progression for the winners should be to take keeps from the losing server first, until there’s nothing left, then shore up their home borderlands (and any weakly defended keeps), then go after eachother.

As you can see the problem doesnt come from a 3-way matchup or alliances. the problem comes from huge population differences between servers.

Very smart. Good analysis. I think this is a huge root of the problem as well. If only there was some way for Anet to track the quantity of regular WvW players per server, then match servers based on that population, rather then ranking.

Tukmolytes.3467:

OMFG!

First I didn’t read the whole thread so I will just reply to the OP.

I just want to ask the question to the OP. How did you conclude that IoJ and DH have double teamed you? Is it because we hit your towers at the same time? If that’s so. Can we say you and DH are double teaming us now that you are hitting our towers and BL at the same time? It will just make you a Hypocrite ain’t it?

Then again, even if you double team us, we don’t care! Double teaming is part of the game, if it is illegal then maybe we all have been kicked out of WvW by now. All servers one time or another need to double team another server.

While we in IoJ have been doubled teamed a lot but do you see us whining about it? NO! Because we are mature enough to accept that this is part of the game.

Even in real life double teaming one country is always exercised (look at Iraq and Afghanistan).

We cannot stop this (double teaming). You can only adapt to it.

Just my four cents worth.

I concluded that IOJ collaborated with DH commanders to double team NSP from this post by one of your commanders:

“I will try to give insight on what happened last night(8 PM EST) and will take full responsibility for this supposedly “Double Team” fight on Northern Shiver Peaks.
When I logged in last night to TS Logan from CORE was talking about the forum war here and how it devolved into a shouting match between our three major commanders and NSP. Then supposedly Logan was contacted by a DH commander that they where going to apply pressure on NSP and if IoJ would like to join in. Logan communicated this info to the rest of the commanders to IoJ on EB. It did not have to take much to motivate the commander to focus a bit on NSP and so we left a few scouts (Including me) at Kloven and Wildcreek and see if DH will try to pull a ninja as we hit NSP. After awhile DH started to put pressure on NSP and only came to our end of EB for Rogues and dredge. Logan then felt that it was safe to leave EB and take all the CORE members and take hills in NSP BL and upgrade it and see if he can take all of NSP BL.
After Logan left EB, Debilitator tagged up and took control of the IoJ Zerg. Since we assumed that NSP was still bitter about the forum war, I convinced him to continue to hit NSP and not focus on DH. Since DH was not hitting us except for the odd rush in capping Rogues, I figured it would be a wise move to not give them a reason to hit IoJ. If we hit DH or Stone Mist DH would of pulled out from NSP corner and focus on IoJ, which in turn would of been a “Double Team” on IoJ since NSP would re-cap all there towers and camps and focus on IoJ as well.
So blame me for orchestrating this “Double Team” on NSP because I was the one telling the commander to hit NSP and told the IoJ EB Pugs to not hit DH. If I felt confident enough that NSP would push DH after IoJ took the brunt of the DH zerg. Then I would of taken the opportunity of DH opening to take SM or there towers or keep.
But from what I observed here on the forums and the fact that NSP have repeatedly shown much more focus on IoJ (Took our EB keep 5 times before I got on), Logan and I called the plan on bringing the hammer down on NSP to prevent the hammer on coming down on IoJ. So yes, we did “Double Team” you but it was to prevent Us from getting double teamed in return. Say what you will about the “Double Teaming” as a cheat, but I saw it as a way to prevent a crushing blow to IoJ. If you took the offer to put pressure on DH awhile back, things would of turned out differently last night.

Proud Commander for Isle of Janthar
Laspo Yorick – Mesmer
Samson Longshanks – Warrior"

At this point though, the point is moot. Whatever happened happened. The question proposed in the opening statement is, does this sort of thing bother you? If it doesn’t, then fine. Personally, it does bother me. And it bothers other folks on this thread. It’s a difference of opinion, not QQing. Maybe this is how the game is supposed to be played. Maybe I do need to just accept it as a necessary evil. Personally though, I have the most FUN when I believe that each server is working separately. There’s been a lot of talk about being on the bad end of the DT stick, but being on the good end is also annoying. Winning because you know you’re working with another server feels like less of a victory. Kind of like taking steroids to win an olympic medal. Perhaps I’ve misunderstood the concept of WvW, or am indeed "QQ"ing as some less than polite posters have implied. But I’d much rather win or lose without DT or alliances or any of that bunk. That’s just me. Okay… flame away.

Banzie.5248:

Entropy.4732:

Crimson Magdelana.9024:

Your policy of no double teaming went out the window when you guys took first though now didn’t it. Lol….

And how do you know who talks to who in game? You don’t. How is that cheating? It isn’t. It’s a MMO. It’s WvWvW. Not a three way game of Go-Fish.

The entire point of the initial suggestion (I was the first to bring the suggestion to NSP, PUBLICLY on the forums) was because IoJ knows what DH is capable of. If they were playing like they soon will be come Monday, it’d be the same scores as last week. DH is insane on the weekdays. So we simply suggested “Hey lets not pick on each other, because DH is gonna do that for us anyhow…let’s just focus them”.

Now other actions (Ehem the SM ninja) made one person extremely mad and the forums spiraled out of control with threats of who’s focusing who when and where. Who’s calling upon Commanders from the other server to help stomp out someone else etc. No one double teamed your server last week. You just lost. That loss I feel is what triggered this post in the first place.

As many people have pointed out, over and over again, Anet encourages the 2 weaker servers teaming up against the Top Spot server in the match. Encourages it. Cheating? No. Smart?

Absolutely.

Thank you for confirming that IOJ did approch NSP initially to double team. And thank you for stepping forward as one of it’s architects. As far as I know, NSP is not double teaming. We’re simply winning. Probably because DH is on a vacation or something and IOJ is left to fight on their own. I didn’t start this thread because we lost, we were losing all week. I have no problem losing squarely. I started it because of the incidents with IOJ supply camp camping for DH to cut off our supply to the keep. Which I consider dishonorable. Each server should fight for their own territory.

But we’re devolving into a specific match up thread and the point of this post was to start a discussion / debate about the concept of double teaming and it’s ethics. You know where I stand. I’m against it because I think the entire point of WvW is to fight in order to gain glory and rankings for YOUR server. Not simply to win at any cost nessesary. We clearly disagree on this front. In your mind there’s nothing wrong with DT’ing. In mine there is. We will never see eye to eye on this. IOJ is into alliences and double teaming. NSP clearly is not. it’s a clash of ideology.

I’m hoping though that this debate will motivate each server and the commanders in those servers to figure out where they stand on this issue.

I will direct you quickly to our match up thread, https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/wuv/matchups/6-21-DH-IoJ-NSP-1/page/12 , Here on this page you will find YOUR commander proposing a sort of double team instead of us this time. I do believe that for the past couple days while we do hit each other we have both been focusing mainly DH.

I couldn’t find it in the link, but I believe you. If it’s the comments about agreeing to stay away from eachother’s (NSP & IOJ) borderlands, but still fight in EB then I addressed it in a previous post. Although it’s not a direct DT, I’m still against it. And I hope the other NSP commanders don’t follow that guy’s suggestions. If there’s some other post you’re referring to, I highly doubt a DT is in effect with IOJ. I just came from a 4 hour long battle to the death with IOJ in ogres.

Regardless, this is specific server gossip. Let’s focus on Double Teaming in general for future posts.

LiebnirGWAccount.5698:

How would this build do in a Fractal out of curiosity? With the constant stealthing and conditions it could be…interesting? Right?

Hey! I’m not a big fractal player, but I imagine it would do well. Works great in PVE with staff.

blutstein.2468:

@ethics: Its one of the advantages of this build, that you can adapt your preferred weaponset. The build works with nearly everything.
Staff works fine, but very defensive…

@entropy: yesterday evening I give Sc/Sw a try and its great too. the phantasm hits like a truck and has more advantage of the zerker-stats + the 20% CD Reduction trait works fine for the OH. The 2 blocks are really devastating if timed right on top of 2 iSwordsman hitting a 25 Stack vulnerability target (that stacks in a matter of seconds) .

Just took your suggestion and tried it out with OH sword. Works great! I love how quick and nimble the iSwordsmen is. And the 2 blocks really come in handy. Nice job!

Crimson Magdelana.9024:

Your policy of no double teaming went out the window when you guys took first though now didn’t it. Lol….

And how do you know who talks to who in game? You don’t. How is that cheating? It isn’t. It’s a MMO. It’s WvWvW. Not a three way game of Go-Fish.

The entire point of the initial suggestion (I was the first to bring the suggestion to NSP, PUBLICLY on the forums) was because IoJ knows what DH is capable of. If they were playing like they soon will be come Monday, it’d be the same scores as last week. DH is insane on the weekdays. So we simply suggested “Hey lets not pick on each other, because DH is gonna do that for us anyhow…let’s just focus them”.

Now other actions (Ehem the SM ninja) made one person extremely mad and the forums spiraled out of control with threats of who’s focusing who when and where. Who’s calling upon Commanders from the other server to help stomp out someone else etc. No one double teamed your server last week. You just lost. That loss I feel is what triggered this post in the first place.

As many people have pointed out, over and over again, Anet encourages the 2 weaker servers teaming up against the Top Spot server in the match. Encourages it. Cheating? No. Smart?

Absolutely.

Thank you for confirming that IOJ did approch NSP initially to double team. And thank you for stepping forward as one of it’s architects. As far as I know, NSP is not double teaming. We’re simply winning. Probably because DH is on a vacation or something and IOJ is left to fight on their own. I didn’t start this thread because we lost, we were losing all week. I have no problem losing squarely. I started it because of the incidents with IOJ supply camp camping for DH to cut off our supply to the keep. Which I consider dishonorable. Each server should fight for their own territory.

But we’re devolving into a specific match up thread and the point of this post was to start a discussion / debate about the concept of double teaming and it’s ethics. You know where I stand. I’m against it because I think the entire point of WvW is to fight in order to gain glory and rankings for YOUR server. Not simply to win at any cost nessesary. We clearly disagree on this front. In your mind there’s nothing wrong with DT’ing. In mine there is. We will never see eye to eye on this. IOJ is into alliences and double teaming. NSP clearly is not. it’s a clash of ideology.

I’m hoping though that this debate will motivate each server and the commanders in those servers to figure out where they stand on this issue.

I love my torch. “The Prestige” has to be one of the best abilities we have. And then there’s iMage. The sniveling, worthless weakling tugging at my sleeve. Of all the Phantasms I can summon, iMage is the most pitiful. iDuelist being the strongest. Lucky for iMage, I like the underdog. I keep summoning that little underachiever in the hopes that one day he’ll prove his worth. The main concept of iMage was that he would deliver confusion to the enemy while granting retaliation to allies. After the tragic confusion nerf, his already dismal damage has been completely castrated. The retaliation is nice, but because it’s a bounce and not an AOE it rarely affects more than one person before iMage wets his pants and dies. iMage is little more than a glorified clone, but worse because he takes up a phantasm slot.

This new big balancing patch is the PERFECT opportunity to give this runt some love. Specifically incorporating “Torment”, or upping damage, or the like. Since he is part of torch, why not a phantasm that has a flamethrower? Or that can cast an AOE like firestorm? He is supposed to be an elementalist type, so what’s he doing spreading confusion? At LEAST have him spread burning!

Write your suggestions for an iMage buff. Maybe Anet will hear our pleas.

Leohan.1096:

So my server Janthir is in 3rd place against Darkhaven 2nd and Northern Shiverpeaks 1st, at this moment. They must be double teaming us, it the only logical explanation. I mean how else can it be explained, they must have no honor, no pride and just cowards.

So if I was to talk to a Darkhaven commander or guild from another server and come to a understanding of lets attack the Northern Shiverpeaks borderlands, as the map is designed to do, take over the keeps and have our understanding explode in a giant 3 way fight for the Garrison. This is cheating? So what if this happens anyways and never talked to any one from another server ever? (By the way never have allied with any one myself). They’re already statements saying the natural flow is ok with most. But the problem is being social with anyone outside your server is against some rules?

Does one call cheaters and planned doubled team every time it happens? Then give up because it not fair? Or does one try their best to work with your server on the map and pull through the onslaught?

I have run into this on Borderlands before, Janthir home land had everything but, this one tower and both the other servers were protecting it (working together). Was it hard? Was it challenging and took hours worth of work to take the tower from them? Yes it was. However it was some of the most awesome, fun times I have had in battle.

Does it suck, when double team happens yes, but its not cheating. No matter how much others want to label it. I have never, in 9 months of gaming talked to other people from another server (expect guild mates) and I still defend, that this is a legit way to fight the stronger server and have a chance to win.

Now does the weaker server get picked on at times? Yes of course they are going to be. Do you always kill the Gold Champion first or take out the peons first when fighting a boss?
There are choices each player, commander and guild have to make who should we focus on at this moment, who should we communicate with? It’s a social, player killing format. Talking with my follow commanders and helping each other achieve something is fun. If a player decides to talk to someone on another server and play nice with them, it’s a valid option.

Until I see the paragraph in the user agreement about not being able to talk to other people on other servers for the purpose of talking about World vs World, it will remain valid.

To be perfectly honest I’m on NSP and I started this thread because of your server, IOJ’s actions. You may not have been aware of this, but the situation was that IOJ commanders approached NSP at the beginning of the match up and wanted us to double-team DH together. Our commanders refused, because we have a policy on NSP of never double teaming. A policy I’m attempting to enforce. In retaliation, IOJ commanders joined forces with DH and double teamed NSP into the ground. It got so bad that it was literally DH hitting our keep as hard as they could while IOJ turtled our camps so DH could take our keep. I got so fed up with it that I posted about it on the IOJ/NSP/DH thread. You can read the responses there. Several IOJ commanders admitted to striking a deal with certain DH commanders and coordinating attacks to crush NSP because IOJ was “offended” that we wouldn’t team up with them. There was some apologies and excuses and a lot of your “who cares, deal with it” arguments. The result though is that DH and IOJ are NOT collaborating this round. And neither is DH and NSP. The game is being played as it should be played. 3v3. And that’s why IOJ is losing. Because when you play fair a different set of factors determine who’s winning. Mainly skill and stratigy. Also NSP is super kitten ed off and bringing it. I am seeing moderate, light forum agreements among NSP and IOJ to stay out if eachother’s BL’s (which I don’t approve of but is less immoral than commanders communicating directly out of game). I know Anet will never officially condemn this double teaming behavior, but I’m hoping that it gets stigmatized by the WvW community in general, so less people do it.

Amen, brother!!! I’m still ticked off about this. 50% was an INSANE nerf. It needs to go up by at least 30%. Or at the very least change the Master of Misdirection trait (which is now totally useless) to a 33% confusion damage increase, instead of duration increase.

Luthan.5236:

The problem is that it make you focus in playing 1 char even more(we also alraedy have the stuff like WXP char based and the Commander being char based).

I mean… that many laurels to get all the stuff? And the Ascended items have better stat and WvW is PvP(with a bit PvE content)… so you want to be better and have better gear to be able to fight against all the PvE players that farmed the best gear before going to WvW.

You want that Ascended stuff… but having it on all chars will take time.

Then again – the PvE players also make more money and have it easier to get all their exos. But the problem is not that big there – because you can just do some PvE too… if you wanted. Laurels you can’t just to more than 1 set of dailies a day… always only 1 laurel/1 day.

On the other hand…. if everyone played also PvE would it not be cheaper then for the WvW players? Yeah we would be forced to to PvE stuff… but then it would be cheaper than a PvE only player(if he did not also do WvW)…

… if this list is correct: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ascended_equipment

The only stuff you need laurels is the Amulet? Is this correct? Rings and other stuff you could get from doing PvE stuff like Fractals and Guild stuff with the commendations.

Laurels are account bound, not character bound. You can do dailies on your level 18 alt, get the laurel, and it would still go towards your main.

Sororita.3465:

gladiator.5367:

I need to stop reading these forums…

You love em, same reason i keep stalking NSP, always good forum posts.

XOXO, i too now have an incinerator

We really need a restraining order against GOM.

JoshuaRAWR.4653:

It seems that because Ascended gear has a different color, it’s automatically better than exotics.

Newsflash gentleman, Exotics & Ascended gear are pretty much the EXACT SAME.
The difference? The Ascended gear can not be fitted with a jewel. Fit an exotic accessory with an equal counterpart jewel? BOOM the stats are like 1% less than ascended. Is that REALLY a big deal? No. Stop whining.

This is the bigger problem IMO. I don’t mind the grind of dailies or monthlies to get laurels. The newly added WvW daily achievements make it super easy and fun to complete them. The bigger problem is that the stats on ascended gear have to be higher so it’s WORTH IT. The way to do this is to put a jewel slot in the ascended gear. Without that it’s like 15 more precision, 1% more crit, 20 more power. Hardly seems worth it. I’m still grinding for them anyway… Not much else to do.

Leohan.1096:

Entropy.4732:

Where I come from “Pride” and “Honor” are good things. I fight fair, I play fair, I don’t game the system, look for exploits, pull sketchy moves, cheat, steal, or anything of the kind. I’m one of those rare people who still pays for music and movies on the internet.

What’s interesting is that this debate has been raging since the birth of actual war throughout the ages. The two arguments are always the same. One side argues that even in a time of war there are certain rules of honorable conduct most sides must adhere to. Treatment of POW’s, use of torture, etc. The Geneva Conventions in RL were written to try and establish these rules of war. Then there’s the other side, which argues that war is hell and any tactic that allows you to win is justified. This attitude has led to genocide, human rights atrocities, etc. In this context we are in a war simulator, so the standard of what is immoral is clearly altered. Although if torture was possible in the game I have NO doubt some servers would resort to it.

In my mind, there SHOULD be honor during wartime (fictional or otherwise) and certain tactics should be off limits for WvW matches such as:

1) Coordinated, intentional double-teaming.
2) Spying
3) Sabotage (building useless siege in an enemy’s keep to waste supply)
4) Hacking/exploits
5) Spawn camping

The ancient Greeks had an interesting debate over this very thing. It was often common practice on the battlefield to sacrifice your POW’s to your gods. Not only did it boost morale among your ranks but it also struck fear into the enemy. Most Greeks frowned on human sacrifice and considered it deplorable, but there were some who engaged in it during wartime regardless, sparking a national debate. The general consensus was that it was a dishonorable practice. Achilles broke this taboo during the war with Troy after his lover, Patroclus, was killed in combat. He swore to sacrifice any trojan who was captured alive. Some argue that this why the gods punished him.

So let me get this straight with your logic. You think the allies in World War 2 were all cowards had no pride or honor? Should have not Coordinated, intentional double-teaming.
I guess France, Poland, the United Kingdom, British Commonwealth (Australia, Canada, New Zealand, Newfoundland and South Africa). The Soviet Union, the United States of America. China and other Allies included Belgium, Brazil, Czechoslovakia, Free Danes, Ethiopia, Greece, India, Mexico, the Netherlands, Norway and Yugoslavia.

All these countries were not playing fair against Germany, Italy and Japan.
Well I guess they should have all kept to themselves and dealt with the situation on their own for they would have had honor, pride and would have lost fair to their attackers.

No one is sacrificing Invaders (POW’s). Unless one is just having fun running head into zerg’s. Which is just stupid fun sometimes.

Obviously if you read my post more carefully I stated “In this context we are in a war simulator, so the standard of what is immoral is clearly altered.” That was in reference to the fact that yes, in RL war alliances are not considered cheating or dishonorable. Of course not. But in the context of WvW, secretly coordinating double-teaming with another server IS immoral and tantamount to cheating because it violates the whole premise of “may the best server win out of 3”. Anet may have intended three servers fighting to inadvertently balence eachother. But I guarantee you they did NOT intend commanders communicating outside game to gang up on weaker servers. If you want a WW2 analogy to what double-teaming in WvW would be, it would be allied forces secretly collaborating with the Third Reich Germans in order to destabilize Russia.

Thanks for the insight, guys! Much appreciated! I’m gonna stick with it.

Join NSP and get free Krait salad sandwiches with extra mayo!

That worthless grub… Hate that grub.

Honestly, I think it’s okay to kill it ONLY IF your server is so far ahead in points that you can spare the players. I get mad at players attacking the grub while our towers are falling, we’re losing camps, our keep is in danger, and we desperately need players to help us survive. Then it’s VERY annoying to see players wasting time on that stupid, fat grub.

Excalibur.9748:

Hickeroar.9734:

Excalibur.9748:

Meglobob.8620:

Excalibur.9748:

Hickeroar.9734:

Excalibur.9748:

Meglobob.8620:

Entropy.4732:

Anyone know what “Aftercast” is?

Yes, its the delay before you can activate another skill…

Those, ‘leaked’ notes are internal notes, so are worded differently from the official notes which will appear on the forums soon, they use delay in official notes…

So aftercast = delay…

those patch notes are obviously fake
:facepalm:

If they are, and they very well may be, ANet are probably laughing their heads off at this thread right now.

Some of it I hope is true, some of it I hope is fake fake fake.

If it’s false, it definitely took a lot of effort to accomplish.

I won’t deny that it took a lot of effort, it doesn’t change that it’s fake…

It’s just not how ANET balances classes.

The notes are very similar to what they said in the last SOTG meeting…

That doesn’t make it real. The person who made these up obviously has a relatively good understanding of the current meta but it’s still obvious that it’s fake.

Not saying you’re wrong, but what specifically makes you think it’s fake?

I’ve seen leaked patch notes before since I play diablo 3.

Even for “informal” inhouse patch notes they’re TOOOOO informal. The writing style is basically like an average joe like one of us. Who the hell uses -> arrows even for a tentative patch note?

Multiple nerfs to the same weapon set. Pretty much unprecedented. Nerfs weapon sets that aren’t overpowered, yet buffs the overpowered ones.

Nerfed weakness way too much for PvE. Weakness actually got nerfed in its current state.

Torment is way too underwhelming for how much it was hyped up.

I’m starting to suspect that it’s fake too.

Gotcha. Thanks!

Banzie.5248:

pot.6805:

3 way faction is supposed to stop the top server from overwhelming the other two. Except that NEVER HAPPENS, it is always a double team on the 2nd server or the 3rd server.

Because commanders on the 2nd or 3rd server disagree and dont want to hit the top server. So it ends up being 2nd or 3rd getting double teamed all cause someone has too much “Pride” and “Honor”

Where I come from “Pride” and “Honor” are good things. I fight fair, I play fair, I don’t game the system, look for exploits, pull sketchy moves, cheat, steal, or anything of the kind. I’m one of those rare people who still pays for music and movies on the internet.

What’s interesting is that this debate has been raging since the birth of actual war throughout the ages. The two arguments are always the same. One side argues that even in a time of war there are certain rules of honorable conduct most sides must adhere to. Treatment of POW’s, use of torture, etc. The Geneva Conventions in RL were written to try and establish these rules of war. Then there’s the other side, which argues that war is hell and any tactic that allows you to win is justified. This attitude has led to genocide, human rights atrocities, etc. In this context we are in a war simulator, so the standard of what is immoral is clearly altered. Although if torture was possible in the game I have NO doubt some servers would resort to it.

In my mind, there SHOULD be honor during wartime (fictional or otherwise) and certain tactics should be off limits for WvW matches such as:

1) Coordinated, intentional double-teaming.
2) Spying
3) Sabotage (building useless siege in an enemy’s keep to waste supply)
4) Hacking/exploits
5) Spawn camping

The ancient Greeks had an interesting debate over this very thing. It was often common practice on the battlefield to sacrifice your POW’s to your gods. Not only did it boost morale among your ranks but it also struck fear into the enemy. Most Greeks frowned on human sacrifice and considered it deplorable, but there were some who engaged in it during wartime regardless, sparking a national debate. The general consensus was that it was a dishonorable practice. Achilles broke this taboo during the war with Troy after his lover, Patroclus, was killed in combat. He swore to sacrifice any trojan who was captured alive. Some argue that this why the gods punished him.

I’m a mesmer through and through, but recently I’ve started leveling a guard and I love it. My main goal is playing WvW with it. Are you pleased with Guard’s performance in WvW? I’m a tad spoiled by having a ton of clones and nervous about being one player, one target. Can you survive and hold your own? Are you a benefit to the team? Can you roam? Thanks!

Yuchen.5980:

Entropy.4732:

What’s “Aftercast?”

Have u played DOTA? It is the animation after u cast a skill. Like u hit some one with ur sword and u need time to return to your normal position and use another skill. It is hard to be aware of in this game though.

Gotcha. Thanks!

What’s “Aftercast?”

Anyone know what “Aftercast” is?

THE Dentist.5960:

Yep I definitely think we hit a nerve with IoJ! Luvin it!

Those IOJ dust bunnies deserve all they get! Give ’em hell!