Guild Wars 2

Glovebox.5724:

Why do people insist on a trinity?

Because a lot of people don’t want to play Guild Wars 2. They want to play a copy of their first online world, often without even realizing it themselves. Requests for a trinity are only one step in asking for said copy, but it would not be enough. Those asking for a trinity are the same asking for raids, mounts, a change to the reward system, and so on and so on.

Ironically, if ArenaNet gave them everything they are asking for… Those players would still leave. They will never, ever, find the perfect clone they are looking for. This is very easy to see, considering how traditional MMORPGs have been failing over and over – take a look at The Old Republic, Tera, Aion, more recently Rift, and so on and so on. All games with the trinity, all games with mounts and raids, and all games that went free to play because they couldn’t keep enough subscribers.

This is what happens when you build your game for players who don’t want to play your game. ArenaNet has been making this mistake since before release, but it got worse after the introduction of Ascended gear and Fractals of the Mists. I wouldn’t be surprised if they introduced a Holy Trinity in the game, considering how desperate they are in trying to cater to players of classic MMOs. Too bad the game those players want isn’t GW2.

sinzer.4018:

Elthurien.8356:

I just don’t like Defiance stacks, they remove the trinity but then punish tactical gameplay. Seems like poor design there

The thing with defiance is that it seems it was introduced to stop us keeping bosses stunned. However, i think it was done in a very bad way. It would be better if you gain stacks each CC used and it reduces the effectiveness while being on a timer for them to disappear. This would make CC more useful without resulting in perma-stunning bosses.

That doesn’t matter. Defiant isn’t the problem. The issue is that no boss has anything worth interrupting. Even if Defiant didn’t exist, no one would bother using any kind of CC – why waste time with that, if it’s not needed anywhere, and it would still be faster to just kill the bosses?

The issue with GW2 isn’t the lack of a trinity. It’s poor PvE design. The concepts in the game are fine, they are simply badly implemented.

Actually, it doesn’t bother me that much that we lost the Abaddon fractal. Let’s face it, that dungeon would be a bad place for it. Fractals:

1. Are random. Those who wanted to play in the Abaddon fractal would need some luck to actually find it. With the incoming Fractal plus the two Living Story dungeons, the total number of possibilities will jump to 12, so it’s more likely that people wanting to see the Abaddon fractal would not find it in a given 3 Fractals run.

2. Are farming grounds. Most of those playing Fractals don’t really want to have fun and enjoy the sights, they want to get over with it as soon as possible. Something epic like the fight with Abaddon needs to be enjoyed slowly, like a good wine.

3. Are bad places to show lore. No current fractal really gives us lore. We see a silver giant, we free it from some random enemies, but we have no idea of who the giant is, or who those cultists are. Abaddon deserves more than that.

4. Are group activities. Considering this and the random aspect mentioned above, we simply can’t play a given fractal when we want to.

5. Have to follow specific rules, like ending in a big boss who will eventually have a big, Agony-inflicting attack.

The fact we will get the “Failed Asura experiment n°1541” Fractal means I’ll continue to very happily ignore the Fractals of the Mists, and hope none of my character ever sets foot there again.

It also opens the door for ArenaNet to some day show us the fight against Abaddon in all its glory, the it was meant to be – in something like the Bonus Mission Pack for GW1, with content we can play when we want to, by ourselves, with all the lore we want in it. After all, ArenaNet said they wouldn’t implement both fractals… But they never said they wouldn’t implement the fight against Abaddon in a way other than a fractal.

Vayne.8563:

I’m using visible clarification responses to show there was a clarification. We never saw a dinosaur but we know they were there. This is what remains of the clarification.

Vayne.8563:

You can only see the thread, the blog is down.

Uh… Twice in this topic people have linked the old blog. You are ignoring that evidence because it shows you are wrong.

Vayne.8563:

Craptrain.7203:

Tip: When you find yourself having posted 5 posts in a row in a single thread, it is time to take a break.

I like when he posts. Each time he does, I look more reasonable.

Craptrain was talking about you, which was very easy to see considering how you are the only person in this topic with multiple posts in a row. Your interpretation of his statement is wrong.

Vayne.8563:

I have specific stats from the forums I used to moderate.

Vayne, posting your so-called qualifications doesn’t really work. It doesn’t matter if you were an editor – in this topic alone, you have proved how you ignore evidence that you don’t want to see, and how your interpretation of a given statement is often wrong. It’s exactly what you are doing with the Manifesto – you are ignoring all the things that prove you wrong, and your interpretation of what remains is also wrong.

I’m sure we have some lurkers. If they had believed you, this topic has just given them reason to not do so anymore, by your own hand. The Manifesto, in the entirety of its anti-grind speech and with its auxiliary clarifications also anti-grind, is a lie.

Vayne.8563:

But those who have claimed the clarification didn’t exist (or didn’t say the things I said it said) have lost points, that’s all.

I don’t think anyone has claimed that clarifications didn’t exist, rather that the clarification that does exist goes against your arguments. Which is pretty much the truth – the blog posts you don’t want to link to show how you are wrong, meanwhile your “evidence” are second hand posts by common players.

Vayne.8563:

Craptrain.7203:

Tip: When you find yourself having posted 5 posts in a row in a single thread, it is time to take a break.

I like when he posts. Each time he does, I look more reasonable.

I have the feeling you didn’t understand exactly who Captrain was talking about… It’s ok though, you don’t have to make a new topic claiming you have a link to one of his posts talking about dyes.

Kain Francois.4328:

To be honest, I really want to see Queen Jenna killed because Moncarchy is stupid in modern day Tyria.

I hope you won’t go to England any time soon, I fear for the Queen.

(And yes, England isn’t a monarchy, but Tyria has a system of elected representatives as well, not unlike a parliament.)

Harbard.5738:

; Harbard.5738

Vayne, The Ubiquitous is a false prophet preying on innocent sheep! Do not fall for his silver tongue! Erasculio, Keeper of the Forgotten Promises (hallowed be thy name) is the one and only interpreter of the Holy Scriptures.

; Harbard.5738

<muttering prayers>
Harbard begins casting Summon Erasculio…
Oh Holy Prophet, we implore you, let the ignorant bask in the light of the Links of Truth! Do not let us falter and permit this deceased equine to go unbattered!

Erasculio.2914:

I know because I have linked them (snip) your interpretation is wrong.

\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/

We need some kind of big Final Fantasy-like animation for my summon.

But it would require a lot of grind to unlock.

So it would prove the manifesto was wrong, OMG!

IndigoSundown.5419:

GW2’s B2P business plan was the ideal vehicle for a game model based on providing engaging content “when it’s ready.” Players could log on or not as it suited them. However, players who aren’t playing aren’t likely to buy gems, and some players won’t stand for having to find something else to do with their time.

ArenaNet’s current strategy of releasing new content every two weeks would actually be perfect for this. It doesn’t really matter if the content is played by in one day – if everyone logs in at least for a day every two weeks, it’s already exposure to the Gem Store, and it’s enough to keep the game in players’ minds.

Galtrix.7369:

You probably got more exotic drops than me, and that’s how you made your money. I can’t make money because I’m convinced that Anet tagged my account with .00001% chance to get an exotic.

Uh… That’s not how most people make money. If you think the only way to make money is by getting an exotic, you are ignoring how people really make money, as far as open world drops are concerned – by selling everything else. Selling all blues and greens you get would be enough to get money to buy an exotic.

It’s interesting that people think the rewards are what the game should be played for.

It’s kinda sad that people don’t really play to have fun, just to get stuff.

I wonder how many of those posting in this topic would play Guild Wars 2 at all if it had no items or gold. Just the experience of playing the game, without any kind of reward.

darkace.8925:

And remember that heart NPCs offer items for karma. These might be anything from fun consumables to crafting recipes for unique armor skins. They give you a chance to unload your loot without having to return to town.

And then there’s the lore aspect. These NPCs give a bit of depth to the world of Tyria. Edna’s Orchard without Edna is just a building we can’t enter and a copse of apple trees with a few low-level DEs.

Orr has those NPCs, telling about the lore and acting as Karma Merchants, without having hearts.

And ideally we would always have some dynamic event active in different parts of the map, so someone running around would find a few interesting things to do.

Queensdale. It’s:

• Beautiful. The lush vegetation without being a forest, the small outposts here and there, the rivers… They all make the area rather nice.

• Filled with dynamic events. While in some other maps you can walk quite a lot without finding an event, the starting areas have a lot of them.

• Has many interesting event chains. If the bandits take the water reservatoire, you will see people sick directly in front of the gate to Divinity’s Reach, very far from where the event itself happens.

• Haas just thousands of cool things. It has a lot of great ambient dialogue, the cemetery is filled with easter eggs, the former Temple of the Six Gods is great for those who played the original Guild Wars, both cities have many nice details, and so on.

I wish Orr had been at least half as good as Queensdale.

DiogoSilva.7089:

Hearts are terrible “kill x rats” kind of quests.

Exactly.

Isn’t it funny, though, that some players actually want the “kill x rats” quests?

I wonder if the majority of players prefers that kind of quest, or dynamic events.

Viking Jorun.5413:

Honestly, you’re 100% correct about GW1 players and nostalgia goggles. People who think this game is grindy obviously didn’t pay 1 plat to go to the underworld each time I farm ectos

That was actually a great gold sink. Grinders used to farm the Underworld alone, over and over and over, so farmers actually paid the 1 platinum fee quite often. Real players, who went to the Underworld in a team to do the quests there, didn’t keep entering the area over and over (so they paid the fee much less often), and they could split the 1 platinum between 8 people.

In other words, it was a gold sink that punished grinders, but didn’t do much to anyone else. Far better than repair fees, or paying to change traits.

Sigh. Vayne, you are shooting your own foot.

This…

Vayne.8563:

I found something that verified, at least circumstantially that what I said was true. People based on this can accept it or not, but I’m not willing to devote more time to the search.

…Is worthless. It’s very, very easy to find the blog entries from that time. People have already linked those entries for you – I know because I have linked them, too. And when you say you don’t want to devote time about this, well, you probably have a hundred posts about this subject by now. So saying you don’t want to devote time to it isn’t exactly convincing.

Ergo…

Vayne.8563:

Maybe people will stop saying that I’m inventing stuff now.

You are. You have ignored all evidence people directly linked to you from the time of the Manifesto, showing how your interpretation is wrong. Your link, as you mentioned yourself, is circunstancial at best – a bunch of nobodies discussing their interpretation of the information released at the time. We have direct access to ArenaNet’s statement. They show you are wrong. Heh, the Manifesto itself shows you are wrong.

We know exactly what ArenaNet said. We know exactly how they said they didn’t want players to grind, because they knew grind is boring and no one enjoys it. They mentioned how they didn’t want people to grind for rewards. We also know how ArenaNet went back on all those things later on, probably afraid that the players of classic MMORPGs wouldn’t like GW2 if they didn’t have something to grind for.

The Manifesto, effectively, is a lie. We can prove that based on ArenaNet’s words. Linking a bunch of forum posts from GWGuru (famously known as “LOLGuru”) with second hand information is not going to change any of that.

Namica.2951:

If you were using less than optimal builds, then guess what? It was like doing GW2 dungeons with less than optimal builds: can be quite difficult.

Actually, there were some parts of the game that were challenging. When Prophecies was released, Thunderhead Keep was hard; when Nightfall was released and the Domain of Anguish was implemented, it was hard, too. Earning all mission bonuses in Dzagonur Bastion was difficult, too, as it was earning all bonuses on Raisu Palace.

Keep in mind that there has been A LOT of power creep in the game. And ArenaNet just nerfed the difficulty of some areas as well. But there were some things that, originally, were hard.

pave.6901:

does this mean if i kill a level 80 champion ill be rewarded with a lodestone?

It means you will have a chance to get lodestones, yes. That was specifically mentioned here:

ArenaNet

Champion Rewards

Champions in the game will be updated so each will always drop a guaranteed reward box for any player that qualifies for a reward from the boss. This chest will contain things like crafting materials, skill points, unique skins, lodestones, and more.

I think the best things about Guild Wars 2 are the small things.

When an engineer drinks an elixir, he/she will throw the flask away after drinking it, and we hear the sound of the flask crashing on the ground. If you move to a different kind of terrain, the sound changes, as the flask is crashing on a different kind of surface.

I love the way some professions will begin playing with their weapons, like throwing them up, when they have been iddle for a while.

And the thing I like the most in the game are the little in world dialogues we get here and there. They are very well written, usually very well acted, and often funny and/or interesting. Same with many dialogues from dynamic events.

zeromius.1604:

The combat in Guild Wars 2 is like a blend of traditional tab targeting elements and action game inspired elements. Tab targeting is a staple of MMORPGs and even Guild Wars 1 had it even though it’s not really an MMORPG. The action game elements might be similar to Devil May Cry, Dark Souls, or even Resident Evil 4 if you’re playing with ranged weapons. I say similar because Guild Wars 2 is still an RPG at heart so you don’t really get that twitchy gameplay or that over the top action. I included Dark Souls mainly because of GW2’s dodge mechanic being very similar in that how its use is limited by endurance. Making the game too action focused would alienate certain players and I think in GW2’s case take away from the synergy in group situations.

I disagree with your points, but I would like to point how I disagree with the basis of your analysis. You are taking little small boxes and claiming GW2 needs to fit into each of them for the sake of fitting into each of them – “MMORPGs have combat like this, so GW2 should have combat like this. RPGs have combat like this, so GW2 should have combat like this”.

That does not matter. What matters is if the combat is fun or not, not how much (or not) GW2 follows the same model other (somewhat) similar games have followed in the past. The main flaws in MMORPGs today come from the fact that all those games are copying each other, often with the reason that “it’s how all MMORPGs are”.

That’s why saying “the combat in GW2 is more involved than in most traditional MMORPGs” doesn’t really matter. Or saying “strategy X works in similar games, but not in classic MMORPGs, so it should work here too” also doesn’t really matter. The combat should, above everything else, be fun; then we can access whether it fits into little boxes or not.

In other words, think outside the box. Other games be kittened, Guild Wars 2 should not try to copy them.

TwoBit.5903:

Those are the the type of assumptions that appear to be the basis for failed WoW clones. If those assumptions were true we’d see more success in those clones.

The reason why the clones fail, IMO, is because the huge mass of MMORPG players want an exact clone of their first online world, not merely a clone. There’s an interesting article on GamaSutra, here, about how people may not even notice that what they want is exactly what they had before. And no MMO ever is going to outWoW WoW, hence failed clone after failed clone.

TwoBit.5903:

GW2 succeeded by selling on the premise that it wasn’t going to be a grindfest like Lineage or WoW, so that says something about the wants of mmo players, 3 million of them in fact!

Was it because of the lack of grind?

Or did MMORPG players just see a big new AAA MMORPG and hop there, regardless of anything else?

We know The Old Republic sold between 2 and 3 million copies (source 1, source 2). We also know most of those left the game within a few months. Rift sold very well, too, but quickly those numbers dwindled. It’s a common pattern in modern MMORPGs – a huge sales spike, followed by a huge loss of players after a few months (just look here).

IMO, those are the same players. The same cloud of MMO locusts, jumping from one big AAA MMO to the next (regardless of what features those games have or not), unconsciously searching for the perfect new WoW that they won’t ever find.

Notice how the time frame in which ArenaNet introduced Ascended gear (something ArenaNet themselves admited they introduced poorly) is the same time frame in which the MMO locusts begin leaving en masse. What likely happened was that ArenaNet panicked when they saw so many players leaving, and considering how those players were the ones asking for features from classic MMORPGs (going into the opposite direction of the “let’s not be a grindfest” mentality), the company replied by adding gear grind and more dungeon grind as fast as they could.

The exact same thing will happen with Wildstar, The Elder Scrolls Online, and EverQuest Next. They may be trying to be fun games, but the playerbase they will get is one that doesn’t want fun. All those games will sell a lot, lose most of their players within a few months, panic, and then fail.

Namica.2951:

B. Played GW1 with either crappy builds, or are just plain wearing nostalgia goggles.

A lot of people complaining about GW2 combat are wearing nostalgia googgles and just want a copy of their previous MMO (WoW, GW1, or whatever).

I think one of the main losses in GW2 from GW1 is the focus on team play. This actually gave one more layer of strategy to the older game, as we had more variety in a single encounter – we were not fighting a single enemy, as often is the case in GW2, but rather a group of enemies, often (since Nightfall) with different skills and different abilities. Fights could also be bigger, since they were balanced for 8 players instead of for a single player (or at most 5 players). We also had some interesting mechanics in fights – those Charrs casting Meteor Shower in the Charr Homelands? The perfect targets for an interrupt. There isn’t anything really worth interrupting in GW2.

Esplen.3940:

DSGLKDJBSDMNKLSMKAMBDKLSBMD

I feel stopid.

We have forum update notes, too. They are usually at the top of the Forum Support forum (OMG, forumception!!!!!). The last update was in April.

ProxyDamage.9826:

This is the word I keep getting completely lost on… I can’t understand this. I tried to on the original thread but I ended up just closing it and saying “kitten it”.

Reputation… for having an item? For grinding out an item? For getting lucky with RNG? I don’t get it. “Oh look, someone has something”? It goes completely beyond me. Baffles me. What am I supposed to be impressed with?

I agree. Someone mentioned that, in other MMOs, sometimes people act impressed when they see someone with armor that takes a lot of grinding of raid X to get… But honestly I see nothing to be impressed with there. Same with Legendaries, or any other item in the game. It’s very hard to be impressed with a collection of pixels, especially considering how more often than not it’s reward for grind.

Reikou.7068:

They need to make acquisition of legendaries completely skill based and not grind based.

I couldn’t agree more. I think ArenaNet was trying to make something to cater to players of classic MMOs, but the way all GW2 rewards focus on grind or RNG instead of skill is one of the main flawd of the game.

Shiren.9532:

The thing about leaders is there’s always another. Jennah can be replaced (for all we know, her death could have been the rise of a great Krytan democracy, something the modern world considers far superior to a monarchy).

Eh, unlikely. It’s more likely that Caudecus would take control of the throne, and we know he’s both corrupt and unwilling to make peace with the Charr.

I wonder if part of the distate some have against Queen Jennah isn’t people being against a Monarchy, and unconsciouly projecting that on the queen itself.

A new day, a new bug. The forum has been failing to load, instead giving a white screen with the message:

Service Unavailable

HTTP Error 503. The service is unavailable.

That happens when doing anything: reading, posting, editing, etc. I haven’t tried using the forum earlier today so I don’t know when it began, but it’s happening right now.

And, for the records, the Ignore function is still not working.

Melchior.2135:

At some point were we able to block a specific user’s posts from showing up, or did I imagine that?

We were able to do so, yes. Until the beginning of the year, the forum had a very simplistic ignore tool (you would still see the person had made a post, and it would occupy the same space in your screen as the real post did; only it would be slightly covered with a notice saying you had that user in your ignore list).

It was removed, around February I think. No explanation was to why.

I wish ArenaNet would implement the ignore functionality again, but it doesn’t look like they have that many resources to apply to the forum – just take a look at how barebones everything is after more than one year. An ignore list would likely reduce conflict between players a bit, thus making the moderators’ work slightly easier, but I don’t expect to see that kind of long term reasoning here.

Iason Evan.3806:

Most of the points I see though are things that lead me to believe that some of the people making them shouldn’t really be playing GW2 because it probably isn’t their cup of tea. At some point, you just have to cut your losses and find something else to play that suits you more.

It’s easy to keep saying that until most players have left the game, and then it will be too late to bring them back.

GW2 has a lot of potential, but it’s not quite there. Those who are still here making criticism are (with the exception of the haters, but most have left) actually hoping the game will become better.

Saying the game is perfect and so that it shouldn’t improve is just preventing ArenaNet from making their game better.

I agree with the idea that it would be bad to kill Queen Jennah. It would be too devastating to the human race, which is already on the brink of collapse anyway.

I think the developers haven’t properly portrayed how important Jennah is for the human race, or how bad is humanity’s situation right now. We see it a bit in the beginning of the human racial story, and we read it here and there, but it’s not shown anywhere else. The incoming update would be the perfect opportunity to show this – how humanity still stands, but with their backs to the wall and trying to prevent each other from falling.

JesseyFranz.8362:

The animations and machina filming is imo way better than the original Guild Wars 2 trailer we saw 1,5 year ago.

I honestly disagree. I like this trailer more, or even this one. Not to mention the Manifesto.

Harbard.5738:

TwoBit.5903:

Harbard.5738:

TwoBit.5903:

Harbard.5738:

Welcome to MMOland? People were crying “gimme shinies” for months, so they decided they wanted the easiest-to-please and lamest player-base, people who play reward systems and not games. Can’t say I can blame people calling the shots at anet, sadly, it’s just way too easy. You don’t need a meaty game, all you have to do is roll out the +stat crap and rewarded “achievements” and those people shut up and keep paying. Wouldn’t that corrupt your lofty game designer ideals? lol

If this is all part of MMOland, well then MMOland kind of sucks.

Well, pretty much sums up my point. Not saying I don’t agree with you, but face it, man. That’s MMOland. Or am I missing some awesome game out there? Feel free to PM me the name.

On the bright side, GW2 took a mini step ahead, and we now get to play it every now and then in between real games, without subscriptions, when/if Anet releases something that’s not a stupid clunky minigame, while we continue on our Ever lasting Quest for the Next MMO-Which-Might-Not-Pretty-Much-Repeat-The-Same-Crap-And-Eventually-Suck.

I’ve already planned my Next adventure This game (or rather the forum) is tiding me over until then.

You’re saying reading Erasculio and Vayne derail topics for ~2 years (yes, they will be here still) will keep you amused until your Next adventure? lol

C’mon, that’s fun >.>

I don’t share the optimism you two have. I doubt MMORPGs will move from the MMOland TwoBit described for a single reason:

I don’t think MMORPG players want it to.

Here, whenever someone complaints that Guild Wars 2 is too grindy, or that it’s too focused on giving rewards instead of in being a fun game, the common reply is, “That’s how MMORPGs are, if you don’t like it go back to a single player game”. I believe most people actually heard that. And that the great majority of those who are left – the MMORPG players – are exactly the players who don’t really care about having fun, and just want to grind for rewards.

We can even see it in numbers. We have big AAA MMORPGs selling between 1.5 and 3 millions on release, being flooded by MMO locusts who want a copy of their first online world (whether they realize it or not) and watching as those locusts leave after a few months (see the common curve in subscriptions here). That’s when the game developers notice something – most of the large mass of players leaving are asking for features seen in classic MMORPGs. The developers then panic and add classic features to their games, often in a haphazardly way. This doesn’t preven the locusts from leaving (they want a perfect clone, not a game with some similarities), and only alienates those players seeking something unique. People continue to leave, until the game goes free to play.

That’s what I believe will happen with the Next incoming MMOs. They are trying to make a fun, unique world, which is great – but MMORPG players don’t want fun, and don’t want unique. Most want a MMORPG that could outWoW WoW, and they will continue jumping from MMO to MMO looking for something they will never find, all the while asking for mounts, raids, gear treadmill, more rewards for grind, and so on.

I think the MMORPG genre will continue to be mediocre until the current generation of MMORPG players, that pratically demands games to be mediocre, dies.

Esplen.3940:

The best player in the game can play for 1 minute a day and get rewarded just as much as the worst player who plays for 16 hours a day

Yep. He’s the best player in the game, he deserves it.

Esplen.3940:

The worst player who plays for 1 minute a day will get rewarded just as much as the best player who plays for 16 hours a day.

Nope. If we reward skill, the worst player in the game won’t get nearly as many rewards as the most skilled player, much less in a shorter time.

What happens today is that the game ignores skill. The worst player in the game will always get far more rewards than the best player in the game, as long as he plays slightly more. The most rewarding kind of content also happens to be the easier – CoF1 is arguably the easiest dungeon in the game, just to give one example.

This works very well for pay to play MMOs. It tells players, “Do you want to be great? To get a lot of rewards? You don’t have to worry that you are a bad player, and you don’t have to bother in even trying to become better, just play more! And pay us more while you’re there, too!”.

Guild Wars 2 is not a pay to play MMO.

Ergo… A long time ago, ArenaNet told us that they were concerned that their games would follow a “skill > time spent” mentality. Truth be said, they began moving away from this at the end of the original Guild Wars, but it’s sad that they completely threw the concept out of the window with GW2.

Esplen.3940:

So then what should players work for? What should differentiate the player who plays for 8 hours a day versus the player who plays for 10 minutes a day

Nothing.

Let’s take a look at real life: a Chinese factory worker works 12 hours per day 6 days a week. He gets a very small salary. Steve Jobs, in other hand, worked less hours per week, but he received a very higher salary.

What does that example show us? How time spent, by itself, is not worth a reward. The idea that grinders deserve a reward, for doing easy and mindless content over and over (aka “dedication”), comes from classic MMORPGs, in which developers wanted people to keep playing, and thus paying, every day.

If ArenaNet were to reward something, it should be skilled play, not time spent.

Vayne.8563:

Like taking a line out of the original manifesto or a SINGLE WORD out of that article. This is an argument you’ve already lost. I don’t know why you can’t see it.

Vayne, I’m not sure you are following Esplen’s advice. You are the one pretending you didn’t see the line from the Manifesto in which Colin said, “We just don’t want players to grind in Guild Wars 2. No one enjoys that. No one finds it fun”. Saying that no one enjoys grind and then saying gear grind is fine, which is your argument, is nonsensical at best, hypocritical at worst. Especially in the context of the Manifesto, with that statement coming right after “I swung a sword. I swung a sword again. Hey! I swung it again”; it’s rather obvious how the “swung a sword” comment is portraying grind, the act of mindlessly repeating a given action, which we see both in gear grind and in level grind.

Your entire reasoning about the level grind claim (and, for the records, the Manifesto never mentions level grind) stands on the assumption that the statement “this boring grind to get to the fun stuff” meant end game content (despite how said statement has no footing on anything said on the Manifesto. Or in reality, for the records). The clarification of the Manifesto proves you are wrong by stating how “the fun stuff” includes “fun rewards” – which means, your interpretation was wrong. It’s simple English, really.

So now we have established, beyond doubt, that your interpretation was 100% wrong. When ArenaNet said they didn’t want players to grind, they were talking about all grind. With that fact behind us, what else can we learn?

That ArenaNet changed their mind. While still claiming that the Manifesto was the intent behind GW2, they changed the game so it would be rather grindy. What do we call, again, when someone claims to have an intention that he/she does not really have? C’mon, that question isn’t hard.

Really, now. Your adamant defense of ArenaNet’s infallibility is nice and all, but it’s far from convincing.

Esplen.3940:

If you have fun by getting pretty gear, note that you’re having fun by getting pretty gear. If you enjoy having pretty gear, then you should work for that pretty gear. This isn’t World of Spoonfeed where if you think leveling is too slow, you can call up Support and get to max level with decent gear. This is Guild Wars 2, where aesthetics are the horizontal grind. Meaning if you want to have that look, you gotta work for that look. But it doesn’t give you an advantage over other players, so you can still play the game without that look.

That’s very bad design.

I’ll quote Colin in the Manifesto to explain why:

ArenaNet

We just don’t want players to grind in Guild Wars 2. No one enjoys that. No one finds it fun.

Grinding is not fun.

When you say people should “work” for rewards as a defense of the current system, you are defending grind – just mindlessly doing very easy content over and over again. Doesn’t matter if it’s farming the easiest dungeon in the game over and over, doing some easy Orr events with a large group of players over and over, or any other menial activity, it’s even worse than a decent job in real life.

Now, a lot of people think MMORPGs cannot exist without grind. They have been fooled by developers of pay-to-play MMORPGs, who want people to keep grinding as much as possible so they continue paying as long as possible.

But the issue is – again, grind is not fun. Grind does not require skill. Grind doesn’t even deserve a reward.

So when ArenaNet says, “We don’t want players to grind because no one enjoys it”, it’s rather obvious that they are not saying “we don’t want players to level grind but gear grind is ok, despite how no one enjoys grinding”. That’s hypocritical, to say the least.

It’s a pity that they gave up. And that, as a result, the GW2 community is made mostly by grinders who want more and more rewards, instead of more and more fun content.

Esplen.3940:

Vayne, you need to step back and read.

Indeed.

Vayne.8563:

The manifesto is beyond your ability to understand. Even if it was incorrect (and I don’t believe that it is) the ONLY way (and it is the only way) you can claim it’s a lie if if you can prove it wasn’t the INTENT of the devs.

As pointed out about a dozen times, a manifesto is a statement of intent. So if it was intended, then it can’t be a lie. You have zero proof that what was said in the manifesto wasn’t intended, therefore you have zero proof of a lie. Simple, plain English.

And you still ignore other quotes, such as when Anet has said directly there would be things to grind for. How do you account for ignoring that?

You have just answered yourself.

Ignoring the very forced delusion that ArenaNet would be talking about level grind (which is something they don’t mention even once in the video), and considering how the statement about avoiding grinding for rewards (in the written Manifesto) just makes it clear that the statement about avoiding grinding for the fun stuff (in the Manifesto vide) includes “fun” things like rewards…

We see that ArenaNet changed their minds. They changed dungeons from a system in which a single run through a single path would give us an armor piece into a system in which a single run gives only some of the tokens required for an armor piece; so if you wanta full set of AC armor, be ready to kill the Spider Queen 23 times.

They changed dyes from an account bound system into a character based system, while asking the person responsible for the GW2 monetization to tell us about that.

They changed the recipe for Legendaries, adding the need for more or less 500 Globs of Ectoplasm, not to mention thousands of other crafting materials.

So yes, ArenaNet changed their minds. They chose to go back on the “We don’t want players to grind” philosophy and just add grind anyway. Using your words, they changed their intent.

And kept the Manifesto right there. Around release, the Manifesto was in the GW2 homepage. They have deleted many of the old blog entries, but they have kept the written Manifesto.

In other words, ArenaNet changed their original intent, while still making sure new players would see the Manifesto, which shows said original intent. Effectively, they lied.

Simple, plain English, Vayne. Can’t get much more obvious than that.

Vayne.8563:

And I also added that there were TWO YEARS of extra commentary by Anet after the manifesto which you continually ignore.

And you are ignoring the comentary you are talking about yourself. The blog entry talking specifically about the Manifesto, which acts as proof that the grind described in the Manifesto isn’t level grind (which isn’t mentioned even once in the video, for the records), rather the grind to get the fun stuff, including fun rewards. Those are ArenaNet words, not mine. You can choose to ignore reality in front of your face, considering how strong your agenda about this is.

But the fact stands: as any good editor would see, the Manifesto has been proven to be a lie. ArenaNet changed their mind. What we have isn’t what we were told we would have.

Vayne.8563:

The manifesto isn’t talking about gear grind as you’ve claimed it is on numerous occasions. Now you’re just backpedaling. Credible much?

It’s hard to take seriously someone who doesn’t even read what he’s replying to.

Do you remember the argument you use the most? “ArenaNet released clarification with the Manifesto”, although you never link it?

Well, ArenaNet did release clarification. It’s a blog entry called “Guild Wars 2 Design Manifesto”, which clarifies – use your m4d 3dit0r skills here to get this – the Manifesto video.

And what does the written Manifesto say? That the game wouldn’t have grind for fun rewards. Guess what are rewards in the game? Hint: ArenaNet has just released a blog about it, and yes, it includes gear.

Really, it takes a lot of denial to not see this. The Manifesto was wrong. Even the clarification of the Manifesto was wrong.

It’s funny, considering how some people mention they get Legendaries less because they like the skins and more because they see it as a sign of status. In this topic, it doesn’t appear people give much prestige to those who own Legendary weapons… I wonder if said owners will accept that (and so that they effectively wasted their time, if their goal was sorely status), or if they will enter denial mode.

Vayne.8563:

The word reward isn’t used at all in there. They were talking about what you DO not what you get.

Oh, it is. You didn’t bother to read the link I posted above, or you would have seen it. That’s why your second statement is wrong – it specifically mentions not grinding for fun rewards. Guess what are rewards in GW2? Among other things, yes, gear.

What were you saying again about people taking others seriously? I would seriously suggest paying more attention to posts you are replying to.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I didn’t say it couldn’t, only that it’s a leap to think it MUST.

I didn’t say it exclusively must, only that it includes gear.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

That’s rather a leap that “Fun reward” must equal gear.

It’s rather blind to think that “fun reward” can not also equal gear.

Vayne.8563:

There’s zero in that paragraph that takes about gear. You’ve simply read into it what you want.

And more and more people are seeing what Anet actually means there, which is what they said they’ve meant several times since. Why argue against something Anet has already clarified?

Really?

Ok, let’s read the clarification:

ArenaNet

Our games aren’t about preparing to have fun, or about grinding for a future fun reward.

“Fun reward” = gear, for example.

Ergo, guess what Vayne? And, for the records, this has been mentioned in this topic already.

A good editor would have noticed it.

SkylightMoon.1980:

Thanx. Im not saying there isnt fun content in this game. There is! Im just offering a different conceptual approach to making things more rewarding by making them more fun.

That’s what single player games do.

Unfortunatelly, MMOs don’t need to make fun content. Admittedly, it’s hard to make something fun – the definition itself of “fun” is subjective, it’s the kind of content that players go through somewhat quickly while it takes a lot of time to build, and so on.

But the main lesson MMORPG players have taught developers is that they don’t really care about fun. Grind will do. Being given bigger rewards will make those players go through whatever content, much like a donkey with a carrot in front of its head will walk through whatever trying to eat. Human beins should be smarter than that, but it appears many are not.

That’s why MMORPGs are mediocre games. That’s why “kill ten rats” quests are the norm, not the exception. That’s why MMOs have such bad storylines. Or why levelling consist of 1 on 1 fights against melee enemies that have no interesting ability or any variation other than doing some kind of knock down/stun once in a while.

Because MMORPG players don’t care about any of that. All they want are rewards.

ArenaNet has learned this, some time after release. See the last Southsun event as evidence. It had very mediocre storytelling (do you even remember when was it that Kiel learned it was Canach behind all that mess?). Very mediocre dynamic events (they even recycled the instigator event twice in the same map!). It left behind a very mediocre boss (the Karka Queen is basically a Karka Champion with more health). But, a lot of people played in Southsun during the event. Why? 200% buff to Magic Find, the instigator events gave a guaranteed chest every time they were done. In other words, rewards.

I don’t believe ArenaNet will actually make Orr fun. I also don’t believe ArenaNet will fix champions so they are interesting enemies, instead of big HP sponges with slow hard hitting attacks. ArenaNet has no reason to. Just changing them to give more rewars will have the same effect – more people playing the game, even if they are not having fun – and it’s much easier.

Paulytnz.7619:

I have a feeling besides coins the most common drops in these new loot bags will be the crafting materials.

As long as those are rare crafting materials (from Shards to Lodestones), fine by me. We still don’t have reliable ways to get those.

Siphaed.9235:

And honestly those people either need to chill out, or find a better game. They act as content gorging, greed eaters. They care nothing for the game’s story, for the background of the content they do, or for anything else surrounding them other than their speedy ways of getting “lootz”. Even the community is just a means to an end, and if these people could solo the content with the same efficiency and payout they’d do so. [This is clearly seen in the /party kicks and berating against some for “too slow”, “wrong gear”, and other ego filling reasons to put down other players.]

I can honestly evaluate that this game isn’t for those people.

It wasn’t, but that’s what ArenaNet got. In large part due to their own faults, I think your description above fits most of the Guild Wars 2 community.

It used to be that ArenaNet took a hard stance against exploiting. Remember how they banned a lot of people who exploited the bug that lowered the cost of cultural weapons? Or how they banned people who exploited the Snowflake salvaging bug?

They don’t do that anymore. A lot of people exploit dungeons, killing bosses from where the boss can’t hit back; we have people exploiting the spawning system for dynamic events by preventing the event from finishing in order to farm. Did ArenaNet punish those players? No. Not anymore.

And do you know why? IMO, because ArenaNet realized most of their players are exploiters, so banning those who use exploits would leave them with an empty game.

Trice.4598:

But then skilled player would keep getting Legendaries over and over, sell them until they reach a ridiculous price that any player could affort, which Iv’e seen happening in every MMO I played.

That’s the same as saying that, under the current time-based system, players with a lot of time would keep getting Legendaries over and over, sell them until they reach a ridiculous price that any player could afford.

Katai.6240:

But we’ve had long-time offenders of the pattern like the Krytan armor that lacks the Medium Armor trenchcoat design, and the Profane Armor, which is form fitting rather than having the flowing robes design. They’ve been around since launch.

But we know what those are, and they don’t look like armors from other armor classes. Profane armor is not a trenchcoat; if it were, people would confuse it with medium armor, but since it doesn’t, it’s easy to realize what it is.

Trice.4598:

And what’s wrong with farming to get a Legendary? I know you guys want something HARD not long, but then 1 year later everyone is going to be holding one. While it takes a real dedicated player to decide to invest 300 hours into one weapon, not everyone is able to do so.

It’s the other way around.

Were a Legendary something that required skill, not everyone would get one – players don’t become more skilled linearly as time goes by, considering how many people don’t even bother to improve their skills.

But Legendaries are just time gated. The guy who plays 10 hours per day every day could dedicate 30 days farming to get a Legendary… But the guy who players one hour per day will have played the same amount of time in 300 days. Which means, given enough time playing, anyone could have a Legendary.

Grimwolf.7163:

As someone with HoM rewards, I don’t care. At all.
I wouldn’t care even if they were letting everyone get the straight HoM items themselves and not just reskins.
The need to have something others can’t get is terribly juvenile.

I couldn’t agree more. I have all HoM skins (although, truth be said, the only one I use is the staffx), but I wouldn’t care less if everyone got them. As far as I’m concerned, the more people who have access to skins they like, the better.

Issues with everyone using all armors:

• Clipping. The current light armor would clip through medium armor, which would clip with heavy armor. Mixing pieces from different styles would lead to A LOT of clipping. The only way to prevent this would be preventing people from mixing (like today) or making all armors so homogeneous that nothing would clip (effectively removing variety from the game).

• Identification. When you see someone in light armor moving closer to you, you know it’s a caster. If it’s a guy in a trenchcoat, you know it’s likely a thief, or maybe a ranger or an engineer. And so on. This kind of information is vital in PvP and WvW, but it’s also useful in PvE considering how often people don’t actually make parties to play together.

I think that’s ArenaNet’s way to say we are all kittens.

Kittkittkittkittkittkittkitt

Ok, the forum is bugged.

1. It’s slow. After making a post, when I go back to the topic, my reply doesn’t appear. It takes a long time for the forum to recognise I have added a reply.

2. Skritts have taken over. I got a PM from a moderator (“message has been moved”) and the title was kittkittkittkittkittkittkitt (with way more than 50 chars). When quoting people, the kittkittkittkittkittkittkitt appear as well

3. Ignore List still doesn’t exist. For the records.

VikingkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittkittennnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnJorun.5413:

He was talking about combat. Learn to read/listen. Kids these days, they hear what they want.

Not really.

When he says, “We just don’t want players to grind in Guild Wars 2. No one enjoys that. No one finds it fun”, he’s not saying “we don’t want people to grind for levels, but grinding gear is ok”. He is saying that grind is bad because grind is not fun (and it isn’t). There isn’t any way to make it clearer than saying “no one finds it fun”.

By removing grind, combat isn’t just a matter of mindlessly killing a big number of enemies as quickly and as easily as possible, so it would definitely change how people see combat.

Unfortunatelly, ArenaNet changed their minds and decided to make a game filled with grind. The result is that their plan – to make a MMO for people who don’t like MMOs – failed. The GW2 community is made by the same grinders, farmers, addicts and exploiters who populate all other MMOs, and little else.