Guild Wars 2

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

Well, it seems some devs read the Suggestions sub-forum, as there are dev posts in the first 3 or 4 pages.

Those dev posts are from before the topics have been moved to the Suggestion section.

Roven Leafsong.8917:

That has been my subjective assessment as well, but I’d like to see exactly what has emerged over the last year or so as a direct result of Arenanet listening to player ideas and suggestions for improvement.

Ah, but what you are saying and my point are very different.

I thinkt the Suggestions forum is useless and ArenaNet never reads it.

But, they have listened to the community in multiple aspects of the game. They always did, since the original Guild Wars. More often than not, for the records, the things they add to the game based on player feedback are bad.

The thing is, the things ArenaNet added to the game have not been based on the Suggestions forum. They are things discussed here, in the main forum, or in the specific subforums for a given issue.

Examples:

• A few months after release: “We want to grind gear! We want to be rewarded with more powerful stuff! We want more progression” – and thus we got Ascended Gear.

• At the same time: “We want to grind in order to access content! We want more stuff to grind for! We want more progression!” – and thus we got Fractals of the Mists.

• A lot of time later: “We want to grind in WvW! We want more reasons to play there! We want progression!” – and thus we got the WvW experience system.

• Rather commonly, “We have way too many currencies taking inventory space, couldn’t ArenaNet just get rid of those things?”, and now we got the new wallet system, that makes the tokens not take inventory space.

• Later, we got, “We want to grind more! We want to farm more! We have no reason to play in the open world! Give us… ProgressioN!!!!!”, and so we got the updates to World Events, and now the Champion update.

And so on, and so on.

Paulytnz.7619:

Oh I’m sure they will add more money sinks in future.

Gold sinks like that are a very bad way to deal with the issues the OP mentioned. It’s better to increase the supply of other things and reduce the influx of gold, than to increase the influx of gold but also increase the demand of gold.

Deamhan.9538:

It’s quite known that men’s brains are hardwired more toward visual stimulus than female’s.

That’s not exactly true, for the records. It’s true in a very specific kind of situation, but not regarding everything, and definitely not regarding a video game.

colesy.8490:

We can’t help failing an event if it’s too hard.

As mentioned in the beginning of this topic, it’s very easy to prove that people are farming and not even trying to finish the event – just try hitting the cauldrons, and watch as everyone tells you to stop. A guy even posted screenshots of that.

Farmers are not that smart. It’s obvious to ArenaNet (and to everyone else) that they are failing this event to manipulate more Champions into spawning.

Roven Leafsong.8917:

As of today, there are a bit over 30,000 threads in the suggestion forum

No one sane is going to read the suggestion forum.

It has:

• A very high output of suggestions, so things are moved from the front page too quickly, and so no developer can keep up with reading things in real time.

• No Search feature (in theory the forum has one, but it doesn’t work – give it a try), so a developer can’t go to the Suggestions forum and try to see what players are talking about a given topic.

Ergo, it can’t be read in real time, and it can’t be used to gather accumulated feedback about a given topic. Therefore, it’s useless.

When this forum opened, arond the first betas everyone who bought the game could join, the Suggestions forum didn’t exist. When the General Discussion forum became flooded with suggestions, ArenaNet opened the Suggestions subforum, but they claimed it was meant to be a temporary solution.

I think they just gave up on it, considering how honestly there is no good solution for this issue. But the Suggestion forum is mostly a waste of time – I doubt anyone from ArenaNet regularly reads it, it’s simply too badly designed to be useful.

colesy.8490:

If the Straits of Devastation and Malchor’s Leap had level 80 mobs they would be popular

They wouldn’t.

The reason why people go to Cursed Shores isn’t because it’s a place where to farm – it’s because it is the BEST place where to farm. If Straits of Devastation and Malchor’s Leap were level 80 areas, they would either:

A) Be more profitable than Cursed Shores, so people would go to the most profitable between the two and leave the rest of Orr alone; or…

B) Be less profitable than Cursed Shores, so people would never go there at all. See Southsun Cove.

OP, people are not doing events in Orr right now. They are failing one specific event in order to farm Champions there.

Mirta.5029:

As a female I don’t see the sexism. I just don’t see it. I’m not oppressed in any way or saddened by the video game industry. Yet here you two are, standing here, telling me that surely I am, I tell you that I’m not and then you call me something akin to small minded

I have never seen standing in front of me a woman from the gaming industry claiming she has been the target of sexism. I have never seen standing in front of me a woman from the gaming industry at all, for the records.

The difference is that I don’t think the entire world is limited to what I have seen standing in front of me. I have read multiple reports of multiple women complaining about the sexism in the gaming industry.

It’s amazing that you claim all those women to be liars. I wonder if you would be that brave if you were face to face with one of them.

rjnemer.7816:

I never said get rid of these farms. Just make the skill barrier-ed content even more rewarding, so people can choose. VARIETY AND CHOICE IS KING.

Same thing. ArenaNet has limited resources (they have mentioned recently that the reason why our characters don’t say anything in the Living Story is because they can’t afford voice acting them), so they can’t make content for everyone. Between making content for the majority (grinders, farmers, addicts and exploiters) or for a minority (players who want a fun, challenging game), guess which is more profitable for them? I’m surprised we got the Queen’s Gauntlet, but do notice how it was introduced in a very pro-farming update (the bottom level of the Crowd Pavillion and the update to Champion loot).

colesy.8490:

Why do people always try to mock those they disagree with by using poor grammar? “moar loot”? Really?

I usually see it as a sign of criticizing a specific group within those who are being talked about. I think the poster you are mentioning made that comment specifically talking about the players who, by lacking long-term planning and thinking only on the short term, have asked ArenaNet for more ways to farm so they could afford more things in the TP. The logical (and obvious) flaw in that line of thought is that people farming more would add more gold to the economy and increase prices, thus new farming places wouldn’t make people afford more of most items in the TP, but many players are not smart enough to think beyond the “moar loot NAO” mentality.

rjnemer.7816:

Players should not be rewarded for there time, they should be rewarded for there SKILL.

All MMORPGs reward time spent instead of skill. In the context of a pay to play game, that makes perfect sense – the developers want to tell players, “No matter how bad you are, you can get all the rewards in this game as long as you play just a bit more (and pay longer, coincidentally)”.

GW2 isn’t exactly a classic MMORPG, but most of its players have a classic MMORPG background and are looking for more of the same. Making rewards for skill would make the game better, sure, but it would alienate the farmers, grinders and exploiters who are the majority of ArenaNet’s customers. So don’t expect it to happen any time soon.

Kirschwasser.3972:

Mirta.5029:

Kirschwasser.3972:

… Except that the games industry IS exceptionally sexist. And just because one incident of a very sexualized character (Lara Croft) not being abducted doesn’t make the trope any less overused, prevalent, or troubling.

If this year’s E3 was any indication, the gaming industry is still exceptionally sexist. You should look at the blogs of women in the industry and the kind of ridiculous things they have to put up with.

Also: Using “feminist” as a derogatory term is very insulting to anybody that’s looking for equal rights for women… which is what a feminist is by definition.

Except that I’m a woman and I can see that the industry is not sexist. Hell, like many other female developers (that worked on those games that you call sexist), I’m going to enter the industry myself. And want to talk about rights? Be an equalitarian and demand equal rights, instead of demanding women rights to be above men. And focus on real problems – like genital mutilation in Africa, women being put in prison for refusing to marry their rapists in Muslim countries. And in some cases fight for both – you don’t want women to be forced into military service? You know what? No human being should be forced into military service.
I really have no respect for people that invent problems instead of trying to solve real ones. And also please tell me what game in E3 today is sexist and in what way. Also if to invent a problem shouldn’t it go both ways? Men in video games are unnaturally attractive and muscular, they always have to show either their strength or their wealth. I find that extremely sexist against males. Why don’t we get an average bear gutted Joe with no job or income as our main character?

I’m just going to go ahead and stop this here, because talks about feminism in gaming tend to go pretty sour pretty fast and there’s no point arguing the matter on the internet. Needless to say, I disagree entirely and don’t find “I’m a woman” to be a valid argument against the matter.

Also: I’m not arguing for women’s rights above men and neither are most feminists.

I couldn’t agree more. I laugh at the idea that a person’s small experience is counter argument to the inumerable signs of the rampant sexism in the gaming industry.

FT, good luck on your research. I have done something similar years ago, I hope it works out for you. Let me know if you ever do the opposite study – males who play more often female characters.

My favourite is Jormag. It:

• Has two phases.

• Actually has some interesting design – the Charr weapons are actually great counters to some of the dragon skills.

• Has a nice animation, especially when the dragon falls.

It’s still very flawed and bugged (for example, during the second phase the NPC yells, “Strike now while the wall is down!”, but there is no wall to destroy in the second phase…), but IMO it’s the least bad among the meta events.

darkace.8925:

Calae.1738:

I’ve already done it once and find it painful to do it again. It’s such a boring chore. I would pay money to unlock all POI’s, vista’s and way-points with the exception of skill points. No rewards.

And frankly, I’m getting sick of seeing that being thrown around. Are we, as a community, so spoiled that we expect a shiny new toy every time we do something in the game?

“That jumping puzzle sure looks fun, but I don’t do it. No reward.”
“I could revive that downed player, but I won’t. No reward.”
“This new player is asking for advice in map chat, but I won’t help. No reward.”

No, it’s worse than that.

You can actually see people saying, " OMG I hate doing world completition, it’s so annoying! Plz give it a better reward so I have a reason to do the thing I hate!!!!!"

I like many of Guardian traits, and a few of the Ranger traits, in that they change how we play the game. Having Might/Blind/Vulneravility/Burn in melee range refreshing when you kill something is a new ability; having symbols inflicting Vulnerability and healing over a large area is almost a new ability. All arrow attacks piercing targets is a HUGE change for a Ranger.

Necromancer traits are nice, but they are more incremental. Having all Death Shroud traits is a big change, but that’s a lot of traits to get.

Vol.5241:

How can you tell the difference between intentionally failing it and failing it because we just suck?

As linked above, it’s very easy. I remember seeing people doing the old Champion Risen Giant exploit, and they were announcing in map chat, “Go back to the stairs so the giant resets and we can continue farming!”. It looks like farmers think they are smarter than, in fact, they are.

Vol.5241:

You can’t. And not that it matters anyway, because intentionally failing is not exploiting

I remember reading the players who were banned for using the snowflake exploit claiming that salvaging an item to get ectos isn’t an exploit, so nothing would happen to them.

Gandarel.5091:

Lot of GW2 newbies don’t seem to understand it so I will break it down to them in a separated topic as many before me have tried as a simple comment.

The posts above this one prove some people still don’t understand your point. I suggest giving up, I think some people will never understand it.

The second scenario you mentioned would be better than what we will get, but I would be happier with a token that we could exchange for a minipet of our choice, among unique and new birthday minipets. We would have more variety than everyone receiving the same thing, with no RNG.

Sometimes, designers go for shock effect over quality storytelling (see almost everyone who dies during the personal storyline). Now, the teaser for the Queen ‘s Speech sent to some fansites hints that Scarlet will attack Divinity’s Reach.

That’s nice and all… But if a lot of people were killed in the attack, it would basically mean the end of the human race. While Hoelbrak is basically a large camp, the Black Citadel is one Charr city among others, and Rata Sum is one more Asura aggregation, Divinity’s Reach is basically the last human stronghold, where they hold their line. Suffering a huge loss of life in the only place they have a small degree of sanctuary (Centaurs and bandits are rampaging just outside) would likely demoralize what would remain of humanity and make them fade away.

I would be happy if ArenaNet avoids killing people just for shock value, and manages to create a menace that is terrifying without slaughtering what remains of one of the most endangered races in the game.

What if an Elder Dragon is behind the Aetherblades?

We don’t know how sentient the Elder Dragons really are. But we know at least some of their minions can actually think – the Risen Priests talk to us, as do the Eye of Zhaitan; the Jormag Shamans are shown making plans; and so on.

The races of Tyria have proved they can defeat an Elder Dragon – it would be logical for minions from the other dragons to have noticed this, and worry. If Modregoth, for example, is really themed around corruption, it would make perfect sense for his minions to take the very thing that defeated Zhaitan – the union between the races – and corrupt it into a weapon against Tyria – the Aetherblades.

Deamhan.9538:

Simple. Time vs reward. These farmers look for these little areas/exploits that they can take advantage of to get as much shiney as possible in the least amount of time possible. They don’t find the act of farming itself to be fun, but rather getting the reward part that is fun for them.

Where does the problem lay? With the game design.

But what if the game is flooded with players whose only source of fun is getting those rewards? In another topic, someone said…

Chickenshoes.6250:

MMO fight mechanics and imbalances really don’t make for good gameplay. If I wanted to just WvW all day for no rewards at all, I’d be playing a game that does it much much better like Planetside 2.

If I wanted to fight with these RPG-like mechanics I’d play an RPG.

If I wanted to play cooperatively with a handful of friends, there are many cooperative games designed completely around that one aspect of the experience.

If I wanted to play a fun game I’d probably be playing a shooter.

The largest point to an MMO is to better your character in comparison to other players through acquisition.

…And with players like that, if most of your players are like that, it’s not a matter of game design – it’s a matter of giving your players what they want, or not doing so and thus watching as players leave.

Now, I agree that GW2 at release had a lot of rewards for farming. But it also had a lot of activities other than farming, activities which are mostly left alone. I have the feeling the reason why ArenaNet has been adding so much farm-focused content (such as the bottom level of the Crown Pavillion) is due to how they have noticed that most players just want to farm.

Storn.8394:

Increase Dynamic Event rewards to where they exceed farming… it really is that simple

Why?

People would still farm. Instead of farm by killing monsters, they would farm Dynamic Events. It would still give us all the same issues that farming always creates – when you have players focused on maximum efficiency to the detriment of everything else, you are going to clash with players who just want to enjoy the content. Having the farming zerg doing dynamic events would hardly make said events more enjoyable for those who like them. And the farmers themselves don’t really enjoy the events (they enjoy the rewards only), so… Why bother?

JayDeeHero.9416:

Maybe it has to do with my Profession, or that I’m not collecting materials the right way.

I did the same thing, but by using 5 characters, so it was easier – I was collecting materials with 5 characters (all at the same level, more or less) to craft for 4 characters, with the fourth using different materials due to being a cook/jeweler. But collecting enough fine materials is often a pain. It gets better at slightly higher crafting levels, but in the lower ones I suggest just buying the materials you need from the TP. And remember to get all the wood you can whenever you go past a tree, you will need it.

I’m still waiting for the Minstrel to have a toogle that turns it into a musical instrument, similar to the flute and the bell, but of course based on a harp.

arjeidi.2690:

I find this attitude way more harmful than the “entitled” attitude. Players wanting to exclude other players from enjoying the game simply because “they’re not as good as ME so they don’t deserve to have awesome things in a video game.”

kitten off and get over yourself. Its a video game, everyone who buys it is entitled to enjoy it. You want skill to mean something? Go do something in real life that requires skill. You’ll get all the exclusion you want there.

You would have a point, if the status quo you are defending didn’t do the exact same thing, but with time spent instead of skill. Do you want “awesome things”? Be ready to grind a lot or play 12 hours per day. Exclusion? Right there.

Do you know what I really think ArenaNet should do?

I think they should just give up, and give players what they want:

Make a large area with a high density of strong enemies with fast respawning rates – like the Crown Pavillion, only bigger and with more enemies, so no one would have any doubt that it would be the best place in which to farm in the game. The farming zerg would move there, and we wouldn’t have more issues with it disrupting dynamic events.

Now, make all the enemies in that new area have a chance to drop items that increase one attribute by one point (or by 0.01%, in case of Critical Damage). This has to be frequent enough so anyone farming there can get on average one per hour farming, sometimes more, sometimes less. Make it so that a character’s portrait has, at the bottom right, a +number sign showing how many of those items a given player has used (so a character who has used two items to increase Power by +1 would have a character portrait showing a +2, and a character who has used three items – one for Power, one for Precision and one for Vitality – would have a +3).

We would then have:

• A farming system with very incremental rewards. Players would always be seeing a +1, whenever they try to farm.

• A farming system that actually makes a character more powerful, as many people want. The diminishing returns of high attributes would actually make the increase in power not that significant after a while, but it would still be there.

• A farming system that inflates the ego of players, as it shows on the character portrait how many of those items someone has used. Considering how farmers appear to worry about their ego, this would be a huge hit.

We would lose PvE balance, but Ascended gear is already going in that direction anyway, and we could always use the same reply – “You don’t need it to play the game”. It would make group finding for dungeons a bit harder, but then again hardly anyone does dungeons anyway other than farmers, and they would all be farming in the new area.

ArenaNet could sell, through the Gem store, tickets giving temporary access to a copy of the same area but with stronger enemies and with better chance to get the loot. This would likely keep players busy for six months. After that time, when they would be powerful enough to one shot everything, release an expansion increasing the level cap, and make the difference in levels so big that all those extra attribute points would effectively be wasted (they would increase Power from 2.000 to 5.000, but the new baseline would be 50.000 at maximum level, so a difference of 3.000 would be negligible), and begin again – make an area equally as big, with even more powerful enemies, each with a chance to drop items that can increase an attribute by 5 points. And repeat over and over again.

I’m sure that would be far more successful than trying to make better dynamic events or a better personal storyline.

Vol.5241:

There is more content in the patch than meets the eye. It’s meant to be a surprise

This is a bad idea.

ArenaNet should have learned by now. Whenever they say they have a surprise, people:

1. Let their imagination go wild and expect all kinds of impossible things, only to be incredibly disappointed when they see what was actually in store for them.

2. Claim everything ArenaNet does sucks, so whatever it is that will come will be bad, and they will continue saying the same thing once the content is released.

Trying to make a surprise for people on the internet is the same as using sarcasm on the internet – you fail after the first person reads what you have written.

Mesket.5728:

Players don’t want to farm… Players wants rewards and progress.

See, I don’t agree with you.

I think players want to farm. If you tell players that suddenly all rewards would be available as they play the game normally, people would call it “welfare” and complain. Even in one of the topics linked above, people mention how they want to show others how they can get better items/become more powerful through “dedication and effort”, which is basically 133t speak for farming.

There’s a topic about Legendaries, in which one person defends the current design by saying:

Genavelle.9516:

The whole point of legendaries is that you spend a lot of time doing crap nobody wants to do so you can get a special unique weapon that only people willing to do that much work can get. If you don’t want to go through that process, then don’t worry about making one. They aren’t supposed to be easy to get.

I think that’s exactly what players want. Something they can get, barely at the limit of what is tolerable, so they get something few others have in exchange for time spent grinding.

TooBz.3065:

For me, the main issue is what do you do with people who don’t want to farm?

Oh, I hate farming. I strongly despise it, in fact.

But everything in this game points that the majority of players are here to farm. That’s MMORPG players for you. I think even ArenaNet is surprised – they got all that work building dynamic events, personal storylines and etc, only to see most of that effort wasted, as what people really want is to farm.

You and me – we will soon be forgotten. ArenaNet doesn’t even have enough resources to make our characters say something in the Living Story. They don’t have resources to make content for the great majority of players – who only want to farm – and for us.

So, conclusion 3: to make players farm longer (and thus take longer to get whatever they want and then stop playing the game), ArenaNet is introducing new currencies that cannot be bought with the old currencies.

Hence Charged Crystal Shards, laurels, and so on. Logically, we can assume that Ascended armors and weapons won’t require only gold, karma or laurels, since players are already hoarding those.

And the one way to keep the farmers from getting everything they want quickly and thus leave the game is by introducing time-gated content. We can’t have everything time-gated, since otherwise players would farm very little (just enough per day to get a single laurel or a single Charged Crystal, for example), but it helps.

So, main conclusion (for now): players want to farm, or they leave the game. ArenaNet wants players to farm, but slowly, so they don’t get everything and leave the game. ArenaNet is introducing a lot of currencies so players have to start collecting those from zero, which takes a lot of time, and thus prevents them from getting everything they want quickly and then leaving the game.

The thing is, ArenaNet is doing it wrong.

They have mentioned, in the big Guild Wars 2 in 2013 blog entry, that one of the goals behind the Champion chests was to make more people play in Orr and in Southsun Cove.

Why do they think it would be a good thing to have more people farming in Orr or in Southsun Cove?

The players who are farming are not interested in doing Dynamic Events. Heh, if anything, he have at least two examples of farming hurting completition of Dynamic Events in Orr. In Queensdale, we have multiple examples of people farming champions and verbally abusing new and clueless players who actually hurt the farming trains (for example, by activatin the Champion Troll when the zerg is busy with something else).

Now, it’s a great thing that farming has been (partially) moved away from dungeons. In dungeons, each member is possibly a liability – there could have been a better player instead of whoever the party has taken. This leads to a lot of profession discrimination, gear discrimination, and etc. In the open world, who cares – the level 15 ranger in green gear following the zerg around is only making it easier for Champions to spawn, he’s not taking a party slot.

But placing the farming zerg in the middle of an area in which a few players are struggling to complete dynamic events is not going to suddenly make people give up on farming and decide to do the events – no, the zerg will continue to farm, going around, stomping over or preventing the events from happening, depending on what is the most profitable.

Likewise, ArenaNet could make a very convoluted system to try to force people to do the events – like giving people rewards based on the number of unique events a given character does per day. But it’s a waste of time. Those players won’t want to do DEs, they want to farm. Making them do Dynamic Events will only lead to people seeking ways to exploit the DEs as much as possible in order to get completition as fast as possible.

So, main conclusion (for real now): forcing farmers to not farm is pointless. They don’t want to do Dynamic Events. They don’t want to do dungeons. They don’t want to explore. “Forcing” them to do any of those things only leads to trouble for those who actually enjoy any of those aspects of the game.

ArenaNet, please let the currently empty areas continue empty. Moving the farming zergs to a given map doesn’t make that map any better.

No, really. I think that’s the core of most issues in the game right now.

We have a lot of players who play the game to get items (example, example, multiple examples here). If those players had no item to farm for, they wouldn’t be playing anymore, and ArenaNet doesn’t want that.

We know a large number of players farm. Take a look, for example, at the issue with the Champion Risen Giant, and now with Shank Anchorage: in both circunstances, we had a lot of people farming those events, and a minority who wanted to actually do the events and/or do the dungeon. If the players who actually wanted to do those events were the majority, instead of being dwarfed by the farming zerg, they would be able to finish the event despite the farmers and so both issues wouldn’t have existed.

So, conclusion 1: A lot of players farm, and they want something to farm for, or they would stop playing.

ArenaNet knows this, of course. So they want to give players things they can get through farming, but it cannot be things players get too quickly, or players would farm, get everything they want in one day, and stop playing.

This is an issue with armor and weapon drops. Right now, exotic equipment is the best equipment in the game – as far as efficiency goes, a player in full exotic armor and weapons doesn’t need anything else (other than trinkets, but those are different). Which means, if exotics dropped often, players wouldn’t need to farm them for a long time, but would rather get their equipment, finish gearing their characters, and leave. Of course, ArenaNet doesn’t want that.

Now, the thing is, exotic equipment is kind of an “all or nothing” situation. Either a drop is an exotic, or it isn’t, and if it isn’t, it’s not exactly helping players to get the exotics. I know, I know, that’s not exactly true – a player who gets 100 blue items can just sell them, and use the money to get an exotic. But that’s not something all players understand (example).

ArenaNet has addressed this issue by introducing ways to get equipment incrementally: nothing in the game drops ascended items, but someone can get a laurel a day, and slowly get enough laurels to buy an ascended item. Same with the collectibles from Fractals of the Mists. It’s different from the exotic equipment, that either a player gets or a player doesn’t get – slowly but surely, players can get enough “tokens” to exchange for the gear they want. It’s also easier for ArenaNet to control those things – a player can get an exotic drop on the first Risen he kills, but he will only get one laurel per day, other than through monthlies and alikes.

So, conclusion 2: ArenaNet wants players to farm, but slowly, so they don’t get everything too quickly and leave the game. Giving things incrementally is better than all-or-nothing situations, since it’s easier to control.

Now, players really like to farm. Many farm even when there isn’t anything they want right now, just in case there will be something they may want in the future – in other words, players hoard (example; there’s also the guy who has some Legendaries but also has 400 gold in the bank, just in case).

Let’s assume ArenaNet wants to keep people playing the game for a long time. Since people want to farm for stuff, ArenaNet will introduce things that take a long time to farm for. If ArenaNet introduced Ascended items as a very rare drop, and tradeable… The players who already have a lot of gold – who happen to be the players who farm, and thus are the players ArenaNet wants to lure with the Ascended items – could just buy the Ascended items in one week. The entire strategy of making Ascended items to keep people around for a long time would fail. The same issue would happen if Ascended items were given in exchange for something else that people hoard, like karma.

What has been ArenaNet’s solution? Simple: introduce a new currency in the game. One that cannot be obtained through gold or through karma, so players who hoard either of those would be unable to just buy a lot of the new currency in a single day. This will force the players who farm a lot to begin from zero, just like everyone else, hopefully keeping them busy for a long time.

I am somewhat amused at this topic’s new title. Oh well…

I honestly feel bad for ArenaNet. While I think they are partially to blame (they could have taken radical steps to make it clear how Guild Wars 2 was going to be a different game), I can’t help but feel like they weren’t expecting exactly the players they got.

BobbyStein.2315:

And considering the fact that PC lines are shared across all races and genders, it doesn’t leave a lot of flexibility for making each PC talk differently

For the records: IMO, it was not worth it. We can see in the personal storyline how the plot had to be adapted under the idea of making our characters talk as little as possible. I have a strong feeling that one of the reasons why so many players complain that Traheane steals our spotlight is due to how he spoke a lot, in order to convey dialogue that our characters would have said, had it not been too expensive to record those lines 10 times.

In other words, voice acting, instead of being a tool to improve storytelling, actually became a deterrent, making the story worse. How could this be allowed to happen?

I would glady have all characters of a given gender sharing the same voice, regardless of race, if that resulted in a better personal storyline. With only two voice actors, maybe we would have seen PCs with personality who do actually act in the game, as opposed to just being told what to do and nodding half silently.

darkace.8925:

But these also seems to be a vocal group (who knows how large they actually are?) who believe effort or desire, and not skill, should determine whether or not one is able to accomplish every achievement or obtain every reward.

I think we have a high number of players like that because they are who classic MMORPGs cater to. Telling players “you can achieve every single reward in the game as long as you play a bit more, no matter how unskilled you may be” is very smart in the context of a pay to play game – you can make grindy content (which is easy to design and keeps people busy for a very long time) and then get rich as players slowly acquire the rewards they want, paying a monthly fee the entire way.

I think many, if not most, of the GW2 players come from classic MMORPGs. They expected to find the same system here – receiving rewards for playing a lot, not for being skilled – and in many ways they did: farming Orr, farming CoF1, farming World Bosses… All of those are very, very easy, just time consuming, yet they were the best way to get all rewards in the game.

Now, for the first time, we have a (very small) reward that doesn’t cater to those players. Doing very easy content over and over doesn’t help someone kill Liadri. Which means, those players who have always been told that they can get everything by playing a lot – they have hit a wall. There’s something in their checklist they cannot tick just by playing a lot. It’s expected they would complain.

IMO, Liadri is great for the game. I’m not sure the majority of players like her, but I would love if more (and more) of the GW2 rewards were linked to things like that.

Zaeon.3846:

But for now I think this content have alienated those who aren’t lucky/aren’t rich/don’t have as much free time who are still

I disagree. I think the GW2 reward system always alienates everyone you mentioned, but Liadri is the only thing in the game that alienates players who are lucky/rich/have a lot of free time, and for the first time rewards those with skill.

Many of the complaints about her, then, come from the players with a lot of luck/time/gold, who for the first time find themselves seeking a reward that doesn’t cater to them.

This is a sign that GW2 needs more content like Liadri, not that she’s bad content. Sure, the execution has not been perfect (camera issues), but I hope this is a sign of things to come.

cocolu.7640:

i’m probably among the large % who can’t complete this event, but you know what? That’s OK. I don’t feel like I have to or need to. I’d say just fix the bugs and leave it the way it is. It’s difficult for a reason, they can’t please everyone. Plus there are many more updates to come in the future. Good work Anet, I really like this update.

Same here.

Dmzsfx.8103:

There are people asking for less o.0?!

I think the OP is misunderstanding some topics in this forum.

Some players are asking for a game less focused on rewards, and more focused on fun content that players would play for the sake of having fun, as opposed to play in order to get gold/karma/whatever.

Some players cannot understand this concept, especially MMORPG players. But it’s pretty much what people do in real life – we go watch a movie because we like the experience of watching a movie. Not because we will be paid 1 dollar for each movie we watch.

Esplen.3940:

That’s where you’re wrong. All the mistakes have been made to please the vocal part of the community.

Really?

We don’t know what the majority of players think.

ArenaNet does know, though, what the majority of players do.

What if they had seen that most players were actually farming Orr, instead of doing anything else in the game? What if they saw a massive number of players leaving in October, so they rushed to add Ascended gear and Fractals in November? What if then they saw a huge amount of players moving to Fractals, slowing the loss of players around the end of the year and even increasing the number of people online? What if they have learned that the most played activities in the game are those that people farm, like the dailies, World Bosses after the introduction of the rare chest, and CoF1?

Would we really be able to say, then, that the mistakes were due to the vocal minority in the forum? Or due to the silent majority that we don’t listen, but ArenaNet sees?

Naus the Gobbo.5172:

Really, all of you deserve a big ‘thank you’. Everyone.

I disagree.

I think the community is by far the worst aspect of Guild Wars 2. A game that in theory would get players who want to have fun has been flooded by players who just want to grind, farm, and exploit.

Every bad decision made since release can, IMO, be traced back to what the players want and how they play the game.

I’m sure the GW2 community must be great for a MMORPG community. But MMORPG communities are bad in the first place, so GW2 is just the best among the worst.

Lafiel.9372:

As for the events, I don’t believe a lack of positive negative feedback is bad.

Keep in mind that the feedback thing is what they told us. But ArenaNet knows how many players do each kind of content. I wouldn’t be surprised if they have learned that no one is doing the events, excluding those that are farmed.

ArenaNet mentioned over and over how they were proud about their Dynamic Event system, and how it would allow players to experience fun and interesting content. Then, the game was released, and what did players do?

Dynamic events? Well…

AnthonyOrdon.3926:

We are listening. Not only to what you’re saying but also to what you’re not. The very first living world team actually did the thing some of you have called for. Some 40 or so permanent events were added around the game in our very first content update. They were met with little interest or fanfare. Granted, Halloween may have stolen the show. But those events are still in the game today. I’ve seen very little reaction to them, however, positive or negative.

…Nah. People went to farm. Today, the most popular activities in the game appear to be farming Champions for their chest, farming World Bosses for their chest, farming dailies, and farming Fractals (somewhat ironically, notice how none of those things were in the game by release).

ArenaNet wanted to make Guild Wars 2 an e-sport. However, sPvP has never been that popular. And despite all its flaws, it appears a large number of players has not even tried sPvP at all.

ArenaNet described WvW as something that would allow squad-based tactical play, with multiple teams tagging multiple objectives at once. However, most of the time players find it easier to just zerg around the maps.

ArenaNet mentioned how they wanted to have a fun game, instead of one focused on grind. Yet, today a player here (I won’t mention his name) posted this:

That’s the difference. I play for shinies. Fun may be a factor but only when I get shinies as a reward. Fun is a by product. A side effect. It’s never the prime motivation. At least for me.

I’m like a donkey. I need a carrot in front of me to make me do anything.

ArenaNet said they wanted to make a game for people who don’t like MMOs. Considering all of the above, looks like Guild Wars 2 has been filled with players of classic MMORPGs.

Imagine ArenaNet were chefs. They will open a new restaurant, based on experimental cuisine, bringing exotic ingredients from all around the world to cook unique and hand-crafted recipes. Oh, and they will include a small menu for kids, with hambuger and fries. When the opening day comes, their restaurant is a success, it’s filled with people… But everyone is ordering hamburgers and fries. All the experimental recipes and unique ingredients are left to rot in the kitchen, because no customer is asking for any of those.

I wonder, is ArenaNet disappointed by the customers they got?

LanceKing.3017:

How do they keep the game running ? Improving story and content aspect of the game or the farming aspect of the game ?

If more players want to farm than to play through the story, guess what’s the proper answer to your question?

Vaatlaw.7530:

1. Bank space is limited for the obvious reason that you want people to buy gems and pay for the extra space

Honestly, if ArenaNet were that focused on restricting inventory space to force people to upgarde, they wouldn’t have given us the Collections vault, or expanded it later to include everything it has today, or introduced the Wallet to free inventory space even more (just out of Badges of Honor, it has given me 10 slots). Not to mention that you can get 100 inventory spaces just with gold, without buying anything with Gems (by using 5 bags with 20 slots each).

Some people are never going to be happy with the inventory they are given. I remember reading someone claiming that the fact ArenaNet had introduced multiple armor sets in the game was PROOF that they expected each character to buy all available armor sets, and so he DEMANDED that ArenaNet would increase inventory space AT LEAST to accomodate as much (but he said it with more caps, more OMGs and more !!111!!!s, too).

And about the transmutation issue, wait 10 days. You’ll see.

BlueZone.4236:

Your AP and omission of actual hours (but I can guesstimate the hours), and it’s clear your idea of “a little” is in the range of hours which you clearly have an abundant of.

He did mention it:

Vayne.8563:

3335 Hours over the past 9 months.

Banquetto.9521:

MMORPG players love to grind. Fact.

Exactly.

I think one of the reasons why the original Guild Wars was good is the fact it was not a MMORPG, so it didn’t really get MMORPG players.

In GW2, though, they are the majority. And while it’s likeky that most will jump to the next big MMO, while they’re here they will make ArenaNet change the game so it’s more and more similar to other MMORPGs.

minbariguy.7504:

Because questioning whether or not someone can do something is exactly the same as whether or not they deserve to be recognized for it.

Obviously. Because, in order to deserve to be recognized for something, the main requirement is being able to do said something. Or are you saying otherwise?

minbariguy.7504:

Perhaps you’d care to point it out?

Sure. Right where it questions if the developers can actually defeat her, thus deserving to get the achievement. Next question?

Fungalfoot.7213:

And then you’ll end up with a dead game populated by a handful of bitter circlejerkers.

Are you talking about a game filled with skilled players, or a game filled with grinders, farmers and exploiters? Because the latter is pretty much what the game is becoming right now.

minbariguy.7504:

And obsessing about the achievements of others— and whether or not you think they deserve them — is downright unhealthy.

Ironic to read that in a topic asking how “others” – the developers – got the “achievement” of defeating Liandri, and if they are “deserving” of that.

Kronus.6048:

because the devs will assume that players like this kind of gameplay, therefore the future content will be focused in that direction.

That would be great. I’m hoping it will happen.

Kronus.6048:

Also you are wrong about this, because this situation can be achieved by playing a lot. If you have enough gold you can just buy tickets and try over and over again until you succeed.

And if you don’t improve while you try again and again, you will never beat her.

Rewarding time spent is bad. Rewarding money spent in the Gem Store is bad, but that’s a given with the way GW2 has been designed; at least the rewards aren’t that big – someone mentioned it would cost more or less US$ 750,00 to buy the most expensive Legendaries, do you honestly expect most casual players to pay for that?

Rewarding skill, in other hand, is actually a good thing.

And if skill is linked to more rewards – heh, if 80% of the rewards in the game are tied to things like Liandri – the game would actually be much better. People who only have a lot of time but no skill would complain, sure, but do you know what the reply to those complaints would be? “You don’t need it to play the game”, which happens to be the same reply those same players use when others complain about how much grind there is in this game.

minbariguy.7504:

Why on Earth would anyone care how someone else achieves something? It has no effect on anyone else’s gaming experience. None.

Of course it does. How do you think people get Legendaries? By playing a lot. Do you know why they don’t get one by just being very skilled? Because Legendaries are a reward for time spent, not for skill.

This is bad for people with skill, good for people with time spent. Now we have the opposite – something that rewards skill, but doesn’t reward time spent. Of course players who only have time, but not skill, are going to complain – but haven’t the players who have skill, not time, being complaining all along?

The kind of player ArenaNet is trying to cater to decides how the rewards in the game will be acquired. Thinking you are in a vacuum, and the playstyle and opinions of everyone else playing the game wouldn’t have any effect on GW2, is being rather naive.

Kronus.6048:

except right now it’s only mini, and if the devs see people do not mind, they will add more stuff in the future like this. The 1% missing content for some players will go to 80% because those same players said in the same place ’’it’s just an achievement/mini’’ and the future gear will be designed on similar content.

That’s exactly how the game is, but regarding time spent instead of skill. Didn’t ArenaNet mention that they expect only a small minority to get a Legendary? Isn’t actually getting one extremely easy, just time consuming?

I have said it in another topic, but it’s worth repeating: requiring time spent (aka grind) to access rewards is bad. That’s content for donkeys and for Skinner rats. Content that requires skill and that cannot merely be beaten through time, in other hand, is content for human beings, and that’s something the game desperately needs more of.

Nick.6972:

I managed to win her today both with my Guardian and Thief.

Guardian 0/0/30/30/10, GS/Staff.

How did you get past Chomper as a Guardian? I can’t find enough skills to cripple it and prevent it from eating, nor can I kill it in time if I kill its handler first.

Kronus.6048:

It’s a fact. The biggest diamond buyers are casuals/average players. If those players leave, there won’t be anymore income coming in which means loss of money.

They won’t leave. Just like casual/average players are barred from content that requires a lot of time spent (since they don’t play nearly that often to buy a precursor, or get the 250 of a given T6 mats to get the expensive Mystic Forge weapons, and so on) and yet they don’t leave because of that, they won’t leave because they are barred from content that requires skill.

You are talking as if casuals could get everything in this game. They can’t, but people with a lot of time to spend can. Now, we finally got content in which time spent doesn’t work, only skill does.

Why are you complaining? Is it because you think this is bad for the game? Or because you are used to achieving everything merely by playing a lot, and now you see a situation in which that doesn’t work?

Lunaire.5827:

Maybe then they will learn that video games are meant for fun.

It’s ironic to read this, and go to the other topic about a guy who loves to grind and farm complaining that he doesn’t like Liadri… Video games are meant to be fun, not meant to be a grind or a farm. Rewarding time spent is bad, rewarding skill is good. I think some players are angry with this boss because they got used to having everything in the game through mindless grind, but have now hit a wall when faced with content that requires skill.