http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rare_Veggie_Pizza
^If I’m using this I know I’ll be built for dealing condition damage. Cond builds naturally get higher defensive stats through gear as well so no need for defensive food buffs.
If I run soup I don’t have control over if my opponent is using direct or condition damage so it may do little to nothing to help me outside of the vit.
Just sayin’…
Didn’t think it through before posting, did ya?
The “defensive stat” (toughness and armor) you’re talking about has nothing to do with “defensive food buffs” (-% condition duration). Unless you think armor reduces condition damage in which case you should play the game a little more before posting. Since we’re also limited to the Mesmers it’s a well known fact that a high toughness condition Mesmer’s greatest weakness is conditions. Rare Veggie Pizza might be better in 1v1 or against power builds but in 1vX or against other condition builds Lemongrass wins hands down.
1. no
2. no
3. former
4. no
5. no
There’s only one thing you really need to defend against condition damage and it’s so OP it’s not even funny.
Take no burning damage from any Winds of Chaos ever, for example. Makes a condition Mesmer fly like a butterfly and sting like one too.
Giganticus Lupicus is the only PvE boss I had fun, dying multiple times on my first few runs while trying to figure out his patterns. The final boss in the volcanic fractal was also fun, only because I usually ended up soloing him, but that was long before the updates that screwed up fractals.
Otherwise PvE bosses are massive design failures in a game with active combat.
I dare you to /laugh every time a Mesmer confusion bombs you. Or /dance if you’d like. THEN we’ll see if confusion Mesmers need a nerf…. or a buff.
I argue my point. I never insult people. Other people call me names a whole lot more often than I call them names. I don’t agree with someone’s point and that makes me an elitist?
I think you are confusing the word with something else. I’ve never considered myself part of any elite. If anything, I have a relatively low opinion of myself. Nice try though.
It wasn’t directed at you, I used your words out of context to reply to whoever it was I was replying to. The words (again, taken out of context) from whatever it is you said seemed to apply quite well to someone who is apparently so anti-elitist. So don’t take it personally.
What did you think of Coffeebot’s data, though. That seemed to imply some sort of problem.
First, I feel sorry for making him do a useless comparison between autoattacking and button smashing. And the only problem I see doesn’t have anything to do with balance.
For added laughs; over 5 seconds at long range the longbow #1 does 164 damage vs the #2 doing 170 damage over 5.5 seconds, if one takes into account that extra 0.5 seconds then the long bow #1 OUT DAMAGES the #2 over the same 5.5 second time period (assuming nothing crits).
This doesn’t actually say anything concrete but for now it shows that the damage differences are minimal. Even if the difference was significant one has to consider if, for example, power scales better with the longbow for skills #2-5 so that in the overall scheme of balance they equal out not in DPS but by utility/burst/conditions/etc. There’s nothing concrete in Coffeebot’s data that states that activation/animation delays are causing any kind of significant discrepancies between the longbow and the shortbow. The same argument can be carried over for Vital Shot vs Bleeding Shot. They’re not even of the same profession and the other #2-5 skills can easily balance the discrepancy in DPS output of those 2 skills.
So what problem do I personally see that doesn’t have to do with balance? Inconvenience. Tooltips are, again, reaffirmed to be of no help whatsoever and it feels awkward in-game when there’s a delay between your expectations and when the skill actually goes off (I mentioned in my first post).
Otherwise, a little unbalance is perfectly fine. If the longbow was so underpowered than the shortbow due to these delays, Anet can simply increase the damage of the longbow instead of fixing the delay. And it’s not like longbow users are complaining that the #1 skill is “too slow” or of the likes.
All personal opinion, as usual.
I read forums constantly but rarely post, but this I had to. Are you insane?! This is the very definition of elitism! 3 minutes?! Are you really going to complain over 3 minutes?! This guy even said he was told that had he done everything proper it would have shaved 20 SECONDS! Not 3 minutes.. 20 SECONDS! This is the reason so many people are anti pug and miss out on running dungeons. They hear stories like this and think OMG! If you are going to kick someone because he cost you 20 seconds in a run, you REALLY need to reevaluate your life choices.
I love this game and honestly have no life and play way more then I should, but even when we are trying to do speed runs in my guild with pug people we tell them what they could have done better and then run it again to help them improve. If we can make 10 minutes with even 1 pug we are ecstatic.
When this kind of stuff happens I place all the elitist (insert favorite expletive here) on ignore and never deal with them again. We play games for FUN. Not to be slammed because we cost someone a precious 20 seconds of their life.
I’m going to reply you with this:
We’re the elite. We can treat people with disdain. That’s the very definition of elitism to me.
Because I find it to be beautifully ironic.
Look, you’re on the wrong page somewhere, but I can’t figure out where. I think you’re just over-complicating what I’m trying to say in your head.
My original hypothesis was this and only this – the skills were weighted and balanced around their activation speeds. This is a given, otherwise that metric wouldn’t exist. And in most cases this is fine, because you aren’t using the same skill more than once every few seconds. When a skill is set to autoattack, though, (typically #1 skills) its activation speed is mostly irrelevant because it is superseded by the animation speed, which is almost always longer (the degree of difference varies from weapon to weapon). This means that many of the #1 skills (or autoattack skills) have refire rates that are slower than they should be and are therefore weaker than they were originally intended to be. This has absolutely nothing to do with whether you have the skill actually set to autoattack or are pressing 1 repeatedly, because the same animation plays out regardless; I don’t even understand where that entered the equation or why it’s being discussed.
The evidence that this is not intended and is instead an oversight is very convincing when you start looking at the data for #1 skills across weapons and professions, as I have illustrated. I don’t have the exact numbers, but it’s very easy to determine even from a cursory analysis that the DPS for both Pistols and Longbows is lacking in comparison to Rifles, etc, and that most of this deficiency comes from the #1 skill. Specifically, it comes from the fact that those skills have animation durations that are far longer than the skill’s activation speed (that would be the ‘delay’ I was referring to) when they were probably balanced around the latter.
No, I now understand what your argument is and it’s as I expected – something that actually has nothing to do with autoattack. What you should’ve said is the #1 skill. The autoattack is a feature that’s completely different from the #1 skill, and your misplaced substitution is what threw off me and a couple of others. Not to mention <reads thread title>, <stare>
You haven’t illustrated anything, especially when it comes to anything with the word “data” in it. Like I’ve said in three separate posts now (since my very first, to be exact), you lack any evidence to support your argument. And with just a cursory glance, it really isn’t much of a problem when build viability pre-limits the weapon sets anyway and the majority of players lean towards specific builds that require specific weapons and have no problem ignoring the underpowered and the underused. Unless the number of viable builds increase to call for the usage of these underpowered weapons in the first place, people won’t care if it’s underpowered or not because there are no builds to fully support the usage of it. And I had to say the same thing twice in the last sentence, just to emphasize. It also doesn’t seem like it’d be a hard problem to fix, if Anet decided it needed fixing over other priorities.
Someone mistaking the term elitism here.
Your case has absolutely nothing to do with elitism. A group leader wanted to do speed farm CoF p1. The other group members joined thinking to do the same. While you may think 10 minutes is a decent time record, even pug groups can manage 7 minute runs with ping-gear-checked zerker warriors/mesmer that all know what they are doing. And pulling the Slave Driver is pretty much the basic of basics as the mesmer’s role in CoF p1 farming. While you may stick around for only a couple of runs, a lot of those groups farm p1 for HOURS, and a 3 minute difference per run is huge. So if the group leader’s not happy with your job, you should know you had every right to start your own group to enforce your own standards on speed farming.
He didn’t kick you because you weren’t as good as him (“I can do better than you, gtfo”), he kicked you because he thought you were the reason the group was not up to whatever standard he expected (“I can save time with a better mesmer”). This kind of reasoning has nothing to do with elitism.
Skill required to play a thief:
I press a few buttons and down them fairly easily. Stealth, stomp, gg.
Skill required to counter a thief:
Anyways, there’s a small list that I’ve started right there.
Couldn’t resist. :d
Several other people were able to understand it just fine, and furthermore it isn’t a simple thing to articulate in a forum post.
edit: I just reread it and I don’t really see a problem, other than the topic itself being a little muddy.
Ok, let’s try this one last time. You said that the fact people aren’t noticing a difference between the auto-attack and spamming the #1 key helps illustrate your point. Your point is that when the #1 skill isn’t chained, the auto-attack results in a slower rate-of-fire from its original design.
1. Where is your data showing the (amount of) delay from its original design? You provide one analogical example that isn’t based on research or fact. While those that saw and agree with your points have given more ideas to do research on the topic, non have provided actual data that proves your hypothesis in the first place. Coffeebot.3921 is the only person to do any physical research on the topic, yet he didn’t compare his data to another set of data where he manually pressed the #1 key instead of leaving it on auto-attack. Therefore, while it sounds plausible, your argument isn’t going to convince anyone with half a brain without some form of factual evidence.
2. I don’t see how people not noticing a difference between auto-attack and manual key pressing is helping to illustrate your point. If it’s such a major problem as you suggest, it would be obvious to any and every player to the point it seriously affects their gameplay. The forums would be flooded with autoattack users complaining that they’re getting out-DPSed by key spammers, yet the case is exactly the opposite: people don’t see it as a big deal at all. Perhaps the delay is so minimal it doesn’t affect the gameplay to the point it needs a major fix. Again, only factual evidence would prove or disprove any argument you may have.
So I do fear that this issue extends beyond auto attack. It is just a lot more apparent in auto attacks, though, since those are used more than once every 30 seconds.
This is what I’ve also mentioned as “off topic” and according to the thread title, it really is. If it’s a problem where the discrepancy between the activation delay and animation delay applies to a lot of other skills regardless of whether they’re on autoattack or not, then it doesn’t really have anything to do with autoattack at all other than the fact that the autoattack makes it most noticeable. Then this discrepancy should be up in a newly titled thread for argument whether it was intentional or not, and whether it has screwed up balancing to the point it needs a major makeover or not. Can’t do any of this without some numbers to make a convincing argument to the devs.
No, like some other people you are misunderstanding what I’m saying. I never once suggested that you should experience this. In fact, the fact that this is precisely what doesn’t happen helps illustrate my point. Try rereading my original post.
Actually I was more or less forced to read it multiple times to understand what you were trying to say in the first place. If I’m not the only person misunderstanding, maybe the problem isn’t in the readers.
Eh, I’m seeing a lack of evidence. You’re stating that autoattack is causing delays between activation time and animation time yet the only statement you provide is support for the argument “there is a discrepancy between activation time and animation time”. Unless we’re talking about different “activation time”, it exists even when you don’t have skills on autoattack. Where is your evidence comparing spamming the #1 key and setting it on autoattack? Does the Vital Shot vs Bleeding Shot example not apply when people just spam the #1 key then? It’s a reasonable and plausible theory, I just don’t see enough evidence here to convince myself.
I use autoattack but often I spam the #1 key anyway. If others do the same then your theory should be able to be experienced firsthand by noticing differences between when people leave it up to the game to autoattack and when they spam the #1 key to override it.
Off topic: If the argument was the discrepancy between activation time and animation time, I would definitely have to agree. Mesmer scepter #1 definitely feels like the animation is delaying the skill to fire at the proper intervals (unless the proper intervals were intentionally designed to be so slow as to make the DPS worthless) and there are a bunch of other weapon/utility skills that I feel they have “weird, unexplainable” delays that take longer than they should.
Umm.. DUH achievement leaderboards is going to be a joke. That’s the entire point. It’s all about kitten stroking for noobs obsessed with achievement points because they know they can’t possibly hope for most kills in WvW or highest WXP rank. To share you a secret, the leaderboards for the latter two are also wery funny jokes. What real players want out of the leaderboards is along the lines of guild or commander rankings; stuff that actually has tangible meaning other than “I played more than you”. If it’s made correctly, we’ll FINALLY have data that shows which guilds do the most for their server or which commander is most effective – with detailed breakdown of points/kills/caps/whatever so you can define what “most” or “effective” means to you.
@Pyroatheist:
lul. out of words.
Well, I’m going to ignore the blatant disrespect for the general intelligence of a lot of people that is implied in this post because I know you have a tendency to do that, and I’ll focus on what you actually said.
Firstly, being “better” at playing a build or another is an awefully subjective thing. It’s very difficult to quantify that. What does better mean? Dying less? More kills? Having a greater impact on the enemy or your allies? There’s a lot of different ways to be better or worse at a build. Since this sort of thing is so difficult to actually define, you can’t use it as a basis for ownership of the build.
So where does that leave us with regards to ownership? Or in another view, does ownership even matter? A lot of ownership is very simply the tagline for the build. It ultimately doesn’t matter, and most builds can reasonably claim several creators. My immortal build was primarily created by myself. However, a suggestion for change from EasymodeX completely revolutionized the build and absolutely changed it from a good build into an amazing build. Does that mean we share co-ownership of the build? Maybe, maybe not. Again, ownership is a very tough concept to define.
It was unreasonable of selan to try and claim that the OP was attempting to make us think this build was his own. You are allowed to post videos of you playing any build you want, whether it be a build you made, a build that someone else made, or any variation between the two.
On the other hand, trying to put him down and flatly state that ownership simply goes to whoever plays the build best is also a confrontational and unhelpful sentiment.TL;DR:
I’m right, you’re both wrong.
Yeah, I’ve seen your videos and your skills are below average. If it wasn’t your tanky build giving you so much leeway in both skill usage and skill timing you would be lucky to get a kill vs a drunk gc thief. Having said that, that’s my subjective opinion. So who’s to tell me how I should be “quantifying” my opinion? Did I tell selan how to quantify his opinions? No, I did the opposite: I questioned his quantification by asking questions that provided reasonable doubt of his values. Then what was my point? If someone watches a video of a build and thinks “I’m better with that build”, he has every right to call it his own build. Whether or not others would agree is equally each individual’s subjective opinion. So who truly goes against this idea of respecting subjective opinions? Selan, for claiming outright ownership based on the extremely stupid “I posted first” logic, and you, who asks a lot of pointless questions that you don’t bother answering and misinterpreted the sentence “If you’re better at it with the build, I say you have every right to call it your own” into “If you’re better at it with the build, you can go ahead and say it doesn’t belong to anybody else”. You can only think this way because you automatically assumed a single entity of ownership that has to be concurred by everyone else. You’re trying to ask for some kind of global definition of ownership that everyone has to agree with, when I’m saying a person calling a build his own is at the most his own opinion. And I leave it up to each individual’s opinion on what to call builds for themselves. AKA you care what it’s called by and judge how others call it. I can’t care less what other people call a certain build, but when someone tries to claim ownership for it in someone else’s name, in either out of cheap logic or blind fandom, I’m going to call it out as being equally mindless as a blind religious fanatic. Because THAT has absolutely nothing to do with subjective opinions.
Your TL:DR
You’re always wrong, because you’ve self-imposed objectivity that only exists in your head.
Edited for clarity.
(edited by ExZee.8109)
lol are u trying to sell this build as your own?because it is kylias build that came out months ago with it.but yes it is a fun wvw build ikittennow how to utilize it correctly.
lol so whoever posts it on the forums first gets to keep it huh? You think nobody was using what was arguably the first most prominent and most popular Mesmer build (the shatter “cat” build) in pre-release stages by private testers before Osicat even had access to GW2? Or do you honestly think nobody out there without a youtube channel could possibly be better than the build thread posters that want attention and publicity?
If you’re better at it with the build, I say you have every right to call it your own. Only skill-less players speak under blind fandom worship, just like only mindless people speak under blind religious worship.
A nerf? lol.
Engineer confusion skills need a nerf because engineers usually combo Prybar with Magnet, making it relatively difficult to avoid the confusion compared to a confusion Mesmer, whose Confusing Images or Cry of Frustration can be blocked or dodged much more easily. Engineers are also given more condition skills overall and more utility to cripple/immobilize the enemy from simply running away, whereas the full condition staff/scepter+torch Mesmer has absolutely no stopping power whatsoever. The metagame is definitely evolving towards the point where more players are simply running away when they’re confused rather than bursting themselves to death, which should be the obvious result as players gain more combat experience.
So strictly in regards to the confusion Mesmer it needs a buff if anything, aka give us a reliable cripple skill so that the enemy doesn’t simply run away while we try to chance-burn/bleed them to death with a slow moving orb skill while our clones fall behind because they don’t have swiftness or blink.
Its not anywhere near a fact.
A soloer (usually a mobile class) is hard to catch. Its also hilariously stupid when 20 people are chasing said 1 person who is, more than likely, specced for mobility. If you see a thief soloing a yak, unless he’s tunneled visioned or improperly specced, you’re never going to catch him unless he suicides for the yak. The only soloer who will ever be finding it harder to survive than in a group setting is either (a.) not very good or (b.) not very aware of his surroundings. You’d have to have your camera pinned against a wall to not see a zerg coming for you from a mile away.
I don’t play the hypothetical combat game. Your examples only hold grounds on specific builds and specific situations that only caters to serve your argument. Not all soloers are a thief and not all soloers are specced for mobility. Not all group roamers are lacking in skill enough to let one roamer get away and not always is the soloer fighting enemies that start and end as a group. I’ve had plenty of examples where I’d be fighting one or two and additional reinforcements gank me while I’m focused in combat so your (a) and (b) are as useless in practicality as the rest of your hypothetical argument.
Sure there is:
- Winning
- Holding your property
“There’s absolutely nothing in-game that confirms this form of effectiveness for the player (as a personal reward)”. Hope that clears it up.
I don’t disagree that the reward formula is borked but its hard to objectively define effectiveness because nothing is clear cut. A scout could be an afk-er, how do you discern? I kill a yak that was going to a tower with maxed supply… why would I be rewarded for that? I was running around in the open field looking to gank… stumbled upokittenerg. Why is this meriting a reward?
It’s so obvious in your sentences that you haven’t thought much about the topic at all.
1. The game has a great afk-timer that kicks you out of the game. First question is pretty dumb.
2. Not very hard to scale reward based on how much the supply the yak is carrying, and what the current supply of the tower it’s delivering to. Also not hard to keep track of the number of times a player has denied supply to a certain tower, which means increased rewards for returning to/camping specific supply routes, which would then consequently increase yak escorting (which would also have scaled rewarding with data that keeps track of how many consecutive times a player has escorted a yak traveling a specific route) and subconsequently lower the number of zerglings.
3. I’m sure someone could suggest a much more creative idea for this one, but one feature I’ve had in mind for awhile is marking places on the map. I scout a zerg and mark the location for my allies and commanders to see. If an enemy zerg is indeed there the server gives me credibility points so that while anybody can spam places on the map, credible ones would stand out. Vice versa, spamming useless points on the map would make me lose credibility points until I can’t spam any points anymore.
Nothing is “clear cut” because that’s how the current WvW is designed. Which has been basically my point all along. If WvW wanted to increase rewards for roamers, there are literally an infinite number of ways of doing so. Honestly the conclusion for me here is that you haven’t given it much thought at all and simply trying to come up with reasons on the fly.
The individual soloers still get full reward for their yak kills, I was speaking of point breakdowns and why the yak is worth less for a solo kill rather than a group of up to 10. There’s not much to be done in such a scenario to better reward the soloer (in terms of personal reward) but you could take steps to less reward the zerger, though I don’t necessarily think that is necessary.
What I’m talking about is balance on the part of how points are rewarded to the server vs. the functions provided. That is to say that something that provides a lot of X will provide less of Y, so for example 5 soloers soloing five yaks rewards only 5 points but denies 350+ supply while a five-man killing a yak gains 5 points instantly but only denies 70+ supply but they can also flip the camp more quickly.
The yaks in the end are a matter of balance on ten or more people killing a yak:
- Less likely and common than a soloer ganking them.
- More manpower intensive outside of coincidental convergence.
- Incapable of covering the same territory as an equal number of soloers
So they earn more points in the instance where they have killed that yak, but in the meantime the soloers have denied much more supply (probably killed as many yaks anyway, making the point idea moot to begin with), covered more ground as scouts, and in general done more favor to their server than some 10 points to the scoreboard.
The balance you speak of only applies to the server and that’s fine. That’s not my point anyway. My point is what’s being rewarded to the soloer since his efforts are obviously greater than a group member’s. It remains a fact that it’s much riskier and harder to roam alone compared to being in a small group (especially if you come across enemy players rather than just focusing on yaks) and this difference in skill requirement is completely disregarded in your and wvw’s balancing formula. Added to the fact that your conclusion states that roamers have done more than just earn an equivalent amount of points (scouting, and in general done more favor to their server than some 10 points to the scoreboard), there’s absolutely nothing in-game that confirms this form of effectiveness. Like I said, the more effective you are in this game, the less you are rewarded. And if “less rewarded” means less in relevance to what should be earned rather than relevance to what a zergling earns, then that’s what “less” means. You say there’s not much to be done in such a scenario to better reward the soloer. I say you’re wrong, and especially when it comes to WXP.
So… 1 solo roamer gets 1 point from killing a Yak. On the other side of the map, a 10-man-group gets 10 points for killing another Yak. “Which of those two scenarios is actually more damaging to the enemy’s supply chain?”
Your logic is off:
- 10 solo roamers can kill 10 yaks for ten points, denying 700-1400 supply from the enem(y)ies.
- 10 zergers can kill 1 yak for ten points, denying 70-140 supply.
Even if the zergers move, so too can the roamers -> roamers cover more area for less man power in less time. 10 solo roamers can cover every supply line on a borderland. 10 zergers cannot do this and zerging every supply line means you 0 standing army ready to go or moving on the map to pressure anything.
This is why the yaks rewards are structured as such. There is reward for a small group of 10 (when did this become a zerg anyway?) but the damage is best done by people soloing them but such a damaging maneuver earns a lesser reward as a sort of personal sacrifice for the server.
This. WvW is fundamentally structured to reward LESS for MORE effective play and vice versa. This kind of ridiculous system controls skill differences so that instead of bad players whining about how they can’t get any points they don’t deserve, you have good players whining about how they can’t get any points they do deserve (Guess which one’s the majority?). Because obviously that noob ranger who pew pews behind 5 allies should get more xp/wxp off a solo roamer that’s been alive for the past x-hours than that solo roamer stomping said noob ranger while 5 allies try to revive/interrupt/kill. No offense to any rangers.
First time in WvW last night – really fun, I wish I had started sooner. I played with a warrior friend and did a mixture of running with various size groups as well as doing a few things with just my friend (taking sentries, dolyaks, and supply camps). I played with a variant of Pyro’s pve support build and tried out a lot of different utility skills. I wanted to share a few specific observations as well as ask a couple questions.
- I felt like I could do a lot. There were times when I ran to the front when small groups faced off, and I felt like I could push back one or two people pretty easily (cause enough damage to make them move). I could cripple and interrupt, I could keep up with the group (with runes of centaur), and I could figure out ways to support groups of different sizes.
- I died a lot. Mostly it happened when I got caught on my own. Even with swiftness, it seems that other classes have ways to move very fast over a distance. I started using Blink as another way to move faster, but some classes seem to have the ability to really burst over pretty long distances.
- Other mesmers are better players than I am. I got killed with the GS wave pushing me off a cliff (nice) and I got to see what it was like to be chased by someone’s three clones (and tried to explain it to my warrior friend while it was happening)
- I wished I could use more skills. When I was in large groups, it was fun to have AOE’s like Feedback and Radiation field. When I was helping to take out the supply camp leader, it was fun to have interrupts (like mantra of confusion, magic bullet, and GS #5). When I was dying to others, I wished for more survivability and escape skills like Blink, Decoy, and maybe even more condition removal than 3x Mender’s Purity.
I have a couple questions as well.
- How fast should I expect the fastest opponents to typically be? I naively thought if I had a decent head start with quickness, I would outrun them (or at least keep the gap). I plan to use Blink pretty steadily now for running away – wondering if I need more than that. Is there more that I can do?- What utility skills would you say are ones that are “must have” in WvW?
Just wanted to end by saying thanks to the commanders in Kaineng Borderlands last night for leading the way in several areas. I managed to get up to halfway through level 3 ranking, so it felt like I accomplished quite a bit. And if you were one of the several mesmers who killed a little Asura Mesmer who was often accompanied by a big female Norn Warrior from Kaineng, I wanted to say good job – I learned a lot!
I won’t say you’re playing the Mesmer wrong, but I will say you’re playing it handicapped. Mesmer has the second most stealth skills and has the best combat mobility with the staff and the right utility skills. This is why I don’t support any kind of passive movement signet or the Immortal Mesmer build – one is unfair and the other gimps the class into a pseudo guardian.
First, you have to pick your role. Are you going to run support and get killed if you’re caught out of the zerg or are you going to run solo/roamer and have trouble tagging people in zvz? Or you could use a solo build and just swap out the utility skills for the occasional zvz. You won’t get as many loot bags as a glamour build though.
Second, the Mesmer has two advantages over other classes except the thief: stealth and combat mobility. But not as two separate advantages but as one used together. If you’re trying to run away, don’t expect yourself to simply outrun and blink yourself away from the enemy. Always run in one direction – stealth – change direction – use distance skills like phase retreat and blink. If you have Deceptive Evasion, use it while in stealth to make a distraction clone. The Mesmer herself explains it best. Obfuscate. Disorient. Confuse.
What? Now people actually have to be smart about using stealth skills, in both 1v1 and zvz combat? Worst. Change. Ever.
That’s like, 90% of thieves in WvW that are going to roll rangers now. pew pew pew is the next big thing.
Logging in on this worthless forum just to rant out my 2cents with the new (broken) guild system. Did it once and definitely will never do it again because of how kitten it is.
1. Tracking is an absolutely no fun nightmare. If you’re going to have it in the map as an “interactive” element, then make it kittening interactive. Nobody in your dev team had the brains to add an actual “tracking” element, and instead we have guild members either running around like headless chicken or taking HOURS organizing and camping every single one of them before activating the mission. Does it really take that much brains to add something like, oh I dunno, existing NPCs in the map will give clues/hints depending on how close they are to the bounty or having footprints that vary in size depending on how recent the bounty passed by or the bounty dropping at least SOMETHING that gives a general clue as to where he is? Designer: “Tee hee hee people will have SOOOO much fun running around trying to look for that one guy with only 15 minutes with absolutely nothing to go on! OH the adrenaline rush will be amazing!” Trolled.
2. The most boring combat ever. I thought it couldn’t get ANY worse than the underwater fractal boss, but somehow these idiots pulled it off. Props to the creativity that must’ve been involved into making them this boring and unbelievably “unfun” to play. It’s a fight against time and you’re going to get downed/killed no matter how skilled you are. The sad thing is I predicted this even before my first attempt at the bounty missions by telling my guild mates: “go all zerker gear”. Don’t need control, don’t need support, and DEFINITELY don’t need any teamwork in combat. Just listen to any guild TS – While searching: WHERE IS HE? WP PLZ!!! While combat: insert nothing useful here. I listen to better teamwork in public TS channels for EB and the BLs.
And that basically covers the entire aspect of Guild Bounty. Search and Kill. Fail on both ends.
PS: Not sure if this has been already mentioned or not because I never read this forum but I’ve seen a guy with 200+ guild commendations. So much for imposing more time-based restrictions on ascended gear, eh?
i said this already in the post you ignored, but i’ll say it again.
you cant compare the overall damage and utility of autoattack skills for different weapons in isolation.
you have to consider the builds that that weapon caters towards, and the other skills in the weapon set. there is no such thing as a poorly designed or unbalanced skill, but entire weapon sets.
edit: for instance, if you wanted more reliable damage from staff, by replacing the vulnerability for poison, then you would need to balance it by taking a hit in your survivability, say a longer cooldown on phase retreat.
or if you wanted to double the projectile speed and let clone projectiles bounce properly, then you’d have to reduce the duration of each condition. if you didn’t the weapon would be OP(see the new siren’s call)
Not even going to bother typing anything new after this. If you want to talk about balance as a whole, I suggest you make your own thread for it because you’re barking at the wrong tree.
So should it be more like Siren’s Call Apply some buffs and only one condtion. I would be fine with losing vulnerability and burn if I would get some consistend dmg out put. What do you think?
Staff #1 is incredibly slow and the damage unreliable
it still says nothing against my argument that it’s incredibly slow and unreliable.
uhh, you were the one that originally went off topic, comparing staff to scepter viability, and condition damage in general.
i’ve said in my earlier posts, explicitly and implied that staff autoattack is balanced. you can’t consider just one skill of a weapon and ask if it’s balanced or not. you can’t boost staff autoattack dps and not make the weapon as a whole OP.
i also like how you insult others for failing to make a point in a forum dedicated to discussing class mechanics, while at the same time failing to make a valid point yourself.
I’m only going to do this with just ONE of the many points where you went off track because doing all would simply be a waste of my time.
Staff #1 is incredibly slow and the damage unreliable
Point of argument.
1. staff#1 is by FAR the best autoattack skill mesmers have for ANY weapon.
Counter-argument.
I don’t even have to argue relative numbers since every decent Mesmer should know that the GS does the most amount of DPS with the #1 attack skill, it has better synergy with Sharper Images, and it’s not even a projectile that can be reflected with skills like Feedback.
…
It is only “the best condition damage weapon” by default because while that should’ve been the sceptor’s role, its #1 attack makes it completely unviable in competitive PvP. And even if your argument holds any ground that “it’s the best #1 attack Mesmers have”, it still says nothing against my argument that it’s incredibly slow and unreliable. Your argument being true would only mean Mesmers have the worst #1 attack skills but manage because they have better #2-5 and utility skills than other professions.
Reasoning why counter-argument is not valid. Also pointing out why your argument is not actually even a counter-argument.
1. GS does more dps at max distance, with full berserker stats. the difference you have to consider is with staff, you’d be running rabid stats. which have only 2 offensive stats. the higher dps you get with GS counter balances with increased survivability with staff, stat wise AND skill wise.
Fail #1: Failed to acknowledge that your counter-argument holds no ground. No further evidence that staff #1 is the best auto-attack versus the GS #1 attack or counter-reasoning to my reasoning as quoted one quote above this one. Irrelevant rambling about distance and stats, including more irrelevant skills other than the #1 auto-attack.
1. Right, except the main point was never about stats or builds or other skills. Just the #1 auto-attack. You’re losing track of the discussion at hand.
Pointing out your failure.
a scepter condition mesmer would be traited with confusion boosting abilities, so your primary weapon with a confusion build would be scepter.
a confusion build is a condition build, so in that case scepter is better than staff, but you’d be using both anyways in that case.
Fail #2: No acknowledgement of failure to keep the discussion to the original point. No discussion that encourages productive replies. Rambling (not reasoning) of other points that are equally irrelevant to the point where we’re not even talking about the same topic anymore.
Logic.
1. GS does more dps at max distance, with full berserker stats. the difference you have to consider is with staff, you’d be running rabid stats. which have only 2 offensive stats. the higher dps you get with GS counter balances with increased survivability with staff, stat wise AND skill wise.
2. staff by design is a medium-short range weapon, all of its skills point to this being the case. but i dont disagree that scepter is kitten. its autoattack and phantasm needs to be changed.
3. when i said nothing to do with weapon choice, i assumed you would be using a weapon that had condition damage skills associated with it. since a confusion build relies on you using condition damage gear. obviously sword OH would not be one of them.
1. Right, except the main point was never about stats or builds or other skills. Just the #1 auto-attack. You’re losing track of the discussion at hand.
3. So basically you’ve clarified your point as being “it doesn’t matter whether you use a staff or a sceptor, it’s the build that matters”. So now show me a Sceptor condition damage Mesmer that rivals a Staff condition damage Mesmer. Where exactly are you trying to go with your argument?
there is so many things wrong with this..
1. staff#1 is by FAR the best autoattack skill mesmers have for ANY weapon. simply because its secondary effect is its main source of damage, meaning your clones will boost your total dps far greater than clones from other weapons.
2. staff#1 bounces have a limited range(600), its range is less than the cast range(1200). it’s designed that way on purpose, and has nothing to do with the bounce trait. that trait is not bugged(different story for clones).
3. confusion damage is extremely potent in wvw, but it really has nothing to do with your weapon choice, and more so how you build your traits and utilities. and a confusion build would not be qualified as a support build, i would call it a cc/condition build.
staff is the condition weapon for mesmers, period, and it’s an extremely good one.
1. Hardly. I don’t even have to argue relative numbers since every decent Mesmer should know that the GS does the most amount of DPS with the #1 attack skill, it has better synergy with Sharper Images, and it’s not even a projectile that can be reflected with skills like Feedback. On top of the fact that the conditions are too drastic with WoC (Burning: 600+/only one tick Bleeding: 120+ Vulnerability: Negligible), anyone who’s played a condition Mesmer should know that it’s about using the extreme mobility we have from skills and utilities to survive while basically waiting for clones and yourself to stack a decent amount of bleeds on them. Staff as it is currently is “(a really good) survivability weapon” that is equipped for defensive purposes to complement GS power builds or Sword burst builds. It is only “the best condition damage weapon” by default because while that should’ve been the sceptor’s role, its #1 attack makes it completely unviable in competitive PvP. And even if your argument holds any ground that “it’s the best #1 attack Mesmers have”, it still says nothing against my argument that it’s incredibly slow and unreliable. Your argument being true would only mean Mesmers have the worst #1 attack skills but manage because they have better #2-5 and utility skills than other professions.
2. If what we have now are by design and not bugged, then that implies condition damage builds must be in sceptor range to utilize its full potential. Basically forcing us to use the staff like a sceptor because the sceptor can’t do its role properly.
3. I would like to see your Sword/Sword and Sceptor/Focus Condition Damage Build please. You look so cute and naive, saying things like “it has nothing to do with weapon choice”. I chuckled at that.
Feels like Anet didn’t really complete the condition builds for the Mesmer at its core because condition builds undeniably have their weakest points in weapon skill #1. GS #1 and sword #1 are incredibly useful and definitely worth spamming (as much as auto-attacks are spammed) given the opportunity but I just don’t see the reward for staff and sceptor #1. Staff #1 is incredibly slow and the damage unreliable and Illusionary Elasticity is bugged because it doesn’t bounce at all if the range is 900+. Sceptor #1 used to have confusion but they didn’t compensate anything for it when it was removed. As of now confusion builds are really nothing more than support-CC builds with the occasional kills from players spamming skills w/o realizing they have confusion on them. Mesmers need to have a consistent and reliable condition damage build just like how a Thief can go a burst build or a bleed build. I really like how the Thief is balanced to be feasible in both extremes of damage dealing. I don’t really care whether the main condition build weapon becomes the staff or the sceptor.
Max is 2400 range. AKA Radar Range. AKA look at minimap, if you can’t see the location of the Portal Entre in your minimap, your exit is too far.
I’ve yet to see grubs spawn on my clones in phase 1. But because I’m fairly new to Arah exp and because my party members get all jittery about me having clones up, I simply wait for grub to spawn, put 3 clones up, and shatter them after they get their first shot off. Lupi has 2 attack animations that rotates so you have more than enough time to make 3 clones and shatter them between each grub summon. My rotation is usually warlock – phase retreat – dodge roll forward (= 3 clones) – shatter.
And honestly I have no idea how much DPS I’m doing to Lupi and I really don’t care, because you’re doing more DPS than that other guy who stays dead because he can’t dodge or kite in phase 2. In an unorganized pug party that’s all that matters – staying alive. So your argument that Mesmer damage “isn’t worth mentioning” really only applies to one kind of Mesmers – the DEAD ones.
Also, a lot of the times Lupi seems intent on killing that one guy who isn’t necessarily the highest DPSer. If that guy can kite Lupi for the entire duration of phase 2, it’s a lot easier for the others to just pound down on him. You could be “that one guy”.
As for reliability, confusion is completely unreliable since you can nullify it by simply swimming away. Believe me, there are a lot players who just swim away once getting attacked under water. They react like: “omgosh, someone attacks me and I have no clue how my aquatic skills work, I need to get outta water quick”. Ironically it was impossible to kill them, whereas they should have been the easiest kills because they are absolutely clueless about how to play their char. Now after the changes they die – just as they deserve.
Yeah that Cry of Frustration is totally unreliable since you can nullify it by simply running away. rolls eyes
I wonder how confusion nuke builds work so well, considering how “completely unreliable” confusion is.
Full of kitten mesmers here.
I do around 320 dmg per stack of confusion and only about 115 dmg per tick with bleed. If 3 clones + me are putting minimum 8 stacks of bleed per tick I would still be doing less damage than 3 clones putting 3 stacks of confusion doing 9kittenage per skill use. Considering how I easily used to get over 10 stacks of confusion with 2 clones and a phantasm, I would say that’s a pretty huge kittening nerf to get a measly 2 stacks of bleeding that doesn’t last as long either. All the posts that claim it to be a buff are noobs that have never used a mesmer underwater before, including the two of you. The facts aren’t even debatable because it’s so kittening obvious. If you’ve never used a mesmer underwater before, I suggest you both STFU.
Oh and edit: the trident that we had before was a “bugged” BWE version that the devs never really fixed. The confusion was only removed from the mesmer and not the clones and no proper balancing was done until now. It finally got the nerf it deserved and you idiots think it’s actually a buff. LOL
(edited by ExZee.8109)
Yes, I had yet another incident today. If it requires targeting an enemy to use it, at least make it warp away from the enemy that’s targeted. Teleporting right under the enemy is kitten
The reason why Twilight and Sunrise are popular is because it’s a very simple design that’s flashy enough and it doesn’t cater to a specific taste. That’s the concept they should’ve implemented with every Legendary weapon; to try and cater to a “neutral” audience with the intention of being flashy/showy/all else that comes with bragging without having people say “it looks like it came out from —- and it’s why I like/don’t like it”. It’s also the reason why all the other Legendaries get some sort of criticism: staff doesn’t go with Necromancers, pistol sounds like it’s made for trolls, short bow has unicorns, etc etc. Anet clearly messed up with the Legendaries, no argument about that, and they’ve only made it worse with the short bow with this new update. Taking the unicorns as an example, it would be great if it was sold in the gem store as a Legendary-only skin effect that can be purchased as an option so that only the people that wanted it can have it. But either 1. have the default Legendary be much more neurtral like Twilight and Sunrise or 2. have an opposite version of the Legendary (ie. shoots black acid instead of rainbows or what have you) so that people don’t have to be forced to choose between a rainbow legendary shortbow or no legendary shortbow. In fact, I predict here and now that Anet will eventually release new Legendaries that will be “oppositely themed” and will eventually please both ends of the spectrum, but until they do they’re simply going to continue getting legitimate complaints.
And honestly anyone that defends a ridiculous rainbow/unicorn shooting shortbow as an ultimate end-game item in any MMO is just another teenage girl. NOT a purchasable skin, NOT an event item, NOT another exotic luxury. Get it through your heads.
I got into a BL today and queued for EB because it was getting boring. Well, things suddenly got excited so I completely forgot. About 3 hours later, EB is ready for me and I’m going “WTF? I got into EB just before getting into BL with only a 5 minute queue”. The only possible explanations are 1. About a hundred people got ahead of me in queue within the 10-15 minute time span between me switching from EB to BL and me queuing for EB again or 2. Nobody logged out of EB for 3+ hours or 3. The queue system is kitty up.
/self censor ftw.
Can’t say that I see a big difference. Not like any of my opponent servers are trying; seems like a lot of servers just gave up because of the coming reset.
Missing FLIMP’s build.
And underwater Trident wasn’t buffed, it was nerfed. There’s even a thread that’s titled “Underwater Nerf/Change”
I know what the thread is called, but having the name nerf/change doesn’t make the change any less of a buff. It took a useless weapon with horrible damage, and wimpy boon stacking and turned it into a potent condition damage weapon capable of stacking a condition that isn’t nearly useless.
Read the actual content of the thread before you talk any more nonsense. You’re making yourself look like a fool.
Missing FLIMP’s build.
And underwater Trident wasn’t buffed, it was nerfed. There’s even a thread that’s titled “Underwater Nerf/Change”
1) Improve rewards for defending a point as well as give a first response reward (basically a separate reward for fighting in the first minute of the attack)
Right now I can make more money hitting depots, yaks, npc points, sentries, and towers in a big zerg then retaking the tower we just lost then for defending the tower and probably ending up dead.
1. Originally I was a strong advocate for this as well but now I am for either. I would like to see some kind of time-increment-increase of reward for defense, meaning the longer you defend a place that is under attack, the higher your reward. But on the otherhand, I don’t care if they end up not changing anything because I see small groups of people defending all the time and they don’t really do anything productive against a zerg 20 times their size. Their effort is generally futile and I don’t see why it should be reason for increased rewards when most of them jump ship after the gate’s down anyway.
2) When a tower or keep is under attack you have to perform a skill channel to get inside through the color-gate
If this is a siege simulator its kinda silly how even spaced out attackers can’t stop some people (perm stealth thieves or bunker elementalists for example) from just running past everyone into the point.
I personally think this is an issue of L2P. When I’m a part of a zerg that’s sieging a tower, I never bother doing 15-20 damage a shot to a reinforced gate. What I do is scout for any flanks/nme zergs/people trying to get inside, and engage them before they even see exactly how many are in my zerg. You have to admit, most people in the zerg don’t care about people running by because they know they can’t kill them. So instead of doing what I do, they choose to ignore runners completely. Therefore, it was a matter of choice, and I don’t see why the consequences of a poorly made choice should be reason for a change of that magnitude. As for thieves, well they’re thieves. They do cheaper things than that.
3) Reduce the range of trebuchets by 85-90% as well as say the Ele focus block is intended and expected or fix their ability to block siege (guardians too).
This last one is more based on what I was advertised WvW would be. If ANet wants it to be a siege from tower to keep or keep to keep then please say so. I accept that a map redesign is out of the question but please explain why the ‘helms deep’ advertised battlefield is more akin to a 3d ‘angry birds’.
I’m ok losing defensive siege to treb fire so long as its from a point I can access.
(EX of issues: Hills -> Lake Tower or SM ->Anzalias/Durios/WC/QL/Durios or Overlook -> Anzalias)
These are 3 issues I’ve seen in WvW (all based on a lack of incentive to defend) with, near as I can tell, not requiring an insane amount of resources to fix. Anyone with an argument of why these issues aren’t important other then “you should defend for the points” or “you just need more skill” I’d love to hear rebuttals.
You mean reduce range BY 10-15% or reduce TO 85-90%. Not sure what you’re trying to say otherwise so no comment.
I don’t play a thief but it doesn’t take a thief to notice how fast the mario thief is moving at… No signet of shadows and he runs like he’s out of combat, especially 0:16-0:17.
Nope, you need to take some economics courses in game theory. There is no sense of dedication or greater good in human decision making, it is all based on maximizing personal utility. The people who most desperately want to be on a top server will make recruitment posts because they have the greatest incentive to ensure that their server succeeds. However, the desire to be on a top server will also make these people the first to jump ship as soon as they perceive a possibility that their server will fail. People who value server loyalty over rankings will be indifferent towards winning or losing and will make no effort to influence those results. It’s rather a matter of simple logic…
I know you want to try and sound smart, but game theory has nothing to do with psychology. I don’t even know how you’re not understanding this, but you seem to have some twisted kind of mentality that’s quite unhealthy. People who’re making recruitment threads want to MAKE their server a top server by recruiting more people. Obviously anyone would want their server to be on top but there’s a difference between jumping between servers and putting an effort in the server you happen to be on. You apparently don’t understand the human psyche (or just common sense in this case) that ANYONE would want their server to be better. Just because they value server loyalty doesn’t mean they’re not competitive, that they won’t care about scores or rankings, or god forbid about winning or losing. What you’re essentially saying is that doctors don’t care about getting paid because they’re doing it to save other people. You need to experience the real world more.
Guys, I hate to break it to you, it’s just an icon. Look: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Commander
Yes but with that icon comes the power to control all noobies on the map who have no other idea of what to do except “follow the blue arrow” which allows them to learn basic tactics (if the commander isn’t completely incompetent)(see my above post for fix).
Control all noobies? LOL. ANet source please? That type of mindset is where reality and fantasy about the icon’s role diverge.
And apparently you’re on the latter in your mindset.
Commander icons don’t just control all noobies. It controls everyone. The commander has the power to set the general strategy of the server. As a simple example, deciding which enemy server to focus on. A less simple example, if a commander sets a plan to take a tower, a good roamer would take the nearest supply camp, or scout the chokepoints that the enemy could flank from. But these good players wouldn’t know where they would do most good if there wasn’t a commander to point in the general direction. Only someone who doesn’t give a kitten about team strategy goes around taking random camps for points or look for 1vX fights, which isn’t bad in and of itself, but is overall nothing compared to what a good player can do with “just” a commander icon. A difficult example, good servers organize VoIP commander meetings to layout a server strategy for the WvW maps as a whole. Just because you don’t participate in the greater intricacies of team strategy doesn’t make the icon nothing more than a luxury as you word it out to seem.
Well, at least I learned something from this little transfer debacle. Seems the people most actively recruiting for their server on the forums are the ones most likely to transfer off as soon as things don’t go their way. An interesting little glimpse into the human psyche. I think that thread on the Crystal Desert “Community Experience” by LaZy takes the cake, it’s a shame the OP deleted it.
Nope, you need to take Psych101. The majority of those recruiting on the forums are either the oldest or the most dedicated of their server. The purpose of recruiting is to benefit the server, not their personal guild. Those who transfer off easily don’t care about their server enough to actively recruit; they’re the ones looking at recruitment threads to see where they can get easy karma. It’s rather a matter of common sense…
Food buffs should never have been allowed in WvW and this is exactly why. Only an idiot would argue this kind of build was specifically intended and/or considered by the devs and frankly, I don’t think they did any kind of balance testing with food buffs in mind. They’re struggling trying to balance things as it is, but just like the Golem in a Box, food buffs being creatively used by the players is something they never anticipated and never expected to be this useful and I would fully support removing food buffs just as they’re removing the Golem in a Box from WvW in the end. Even this build, as creative as it is, simply goes against the basic concept of balance and the reason is better explained one post above mine.
Guides, especially build guides, shouldn’t be stickied anyway. Actually build guides are the worst kind of guides and should be the last on the list for sticky consideration.
Edit: Oh look. Post Your Builds Thread
If you have trouble finding the real mesmer in a PvP game, you have some serious issues.
Your reward is to getting better at finding the real mesmer.
Anyone who is fooled by the mindless clones spamming attack 1, standing in a spot or running straight to the target (depending on the weapon), should not be in charge for class balancing or even think about making comments.Sorry, if my first post sounded hysterical to you, I just wanted to point out that you have no clue.
This thread’s probably going to get closed for unproductive discussion, but this right here takes the cake.
Mesmer is a profession that is intended to confuse and disorient so that the enemy cannot find the real you. “Your reward is to getting better” at not allowing the enemy to find the real you. To argue that someone has “serious issues” when facing difficulties against the inherent nature of the mesmer profession, you must have some serious issues about understanding the mesmer.
If you take the time to read that quote, you’ll realize it is on a watchlist. That means they are not entirely convinced it is OP, but they are watching.
And if you deduce the logical thought process of WHY they would do such a thing, you would also come to the conclusion that the OP of this thread is quite justified to QQ about bunker d/d eles. The debate of whether the OP-ness of bunker d/d eles will remain the same or change without balancing due to the evolving metagame should be reserved for a different place of discussion. My point is you’re all laughable for QQing about a QQer whose QQing point has been supported by a dev in an interview that just happened a week ago. Apparently you’re all m@d ski11z and s0 pr0 that you can come out and say “it’s a learn 2 play issue” when the devs are saying “it’s actually on our watchlist”.
Bunker d/d eles may get nerfed…but nothing will happen to other d/d users ( soldier users, valkyrie users and so on ), the skills won’t be changed and in the end you will still lose to the same good eles..just like before, nothing will change for you.
Most of us could go staff …and you’d still lose regardless I assure you at 100%, so I’m sorry to break your bubble… a nerf will never make up for your lack of skills period
And…? It doesn’t matter between a player that QQs about a build or a profession and a player that QQs about QQers about a build or a profession. I’ve NEVER seen a good player in either category but none of that (aka your entire point in above quote) matters when it comes to a build being “overpowered” and needing balance. Anet could leave bunker d/d eles as is for another year and the metagame could just as easily and simply change to fit the build and put it in line with the other builds and professions. You and the majority of QQers hardly understand the relationship between the metagame and balancing so I’m not going to waste my time and go any deeper than that. Because obviously you can’t even correctly argue the relationship between balancing and player skill. So go QQ more about how balancing is ruined by QQers… Hmmm I think I said that already somewhere…